Transcript/447: Bill Cooper Covers OKC Part 2

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N-N-N-N-N-N-N-Knowledge Fight
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Dan and Jordan, I am SWEATING
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Knowledgefight.com, it's time to pray
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I have great respect for Knowledgefight
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Knowledgefight
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I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys
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The bad guys saying we are the bad guys
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Knowledgefight
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Dan and Jordan, Knowledgefight
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Riddle her, riddle her, riddle her
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I need, I need money
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Riddle her, riddle her, riddle her
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Andy and Kansas, Andy and, Andy and
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Stop it, Andy and Kansas, Andy and Kansas
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It's time to pray
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Andy and Kansas, you're on the air, thanks for holding us
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Hello Alex, I'm a system caller, I'm a huge fan
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I love your work
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Knowledgefight
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N-N-N-N-N-N-Knowledgefight.com
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I love you
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Hey everybody, welcome back to Knowledgefight, I'm Dan
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I'm Jordan
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We're a couple dudes, like to sit around, drink novelty beverages
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and talk just a little bit about Alex Jones
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Oh indeed we are Dan
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Jordan
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Dan, quick question
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What's your bright spot today?
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It's, okay here's my bright spot
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What's your bright spot?
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Alternative milks
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Are those racist milks, is that what those are?
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No, no
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I've always been a 2% guy or a whole milk guy
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but I've been experimenting lately with the milk substitutes
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and I'm very excited about it, like I haven't hit a snag yet
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all pretty good
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I've gone with the almond milk and now oat milk
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and both have been winners, they're pretty good
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Serious question
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What can you not make into milk?
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I don't know
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I looked at the shelf and there's so many things
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There's so many things
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I have a macadamia milk that I'm going to try eventually
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So nuts get turned into milk all the time
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There's cashew milk too, yeah
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That sounds wild
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And then there's like, I think I saw a hemp one
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A hemp milk?
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What?
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How does milk even work now?
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Hazelnut milk
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I think almost any nut makes milk
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You just squeeze it, you squeeze the nut
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See that's the image I have, that brings me back to Lewis Black's bit about soybean juice
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and that whole thing
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The whole factory is just really strong guys with cashew in their hand
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I'm going to squeeze this fucking
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I was always really averse to anything that wasn't just cow milk
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Right
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Right now I'm realizing there's a whole world out there
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of possible things to try that might conceivably be healthier
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There's kind of like a feeling that I have
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I'm not going vegetarian or vegan or anything like that
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but leaning a little bit closer to that
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is something that probably I want to do as I age
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It's better for the environment, for your health, etc, the whole thing
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Definitely
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And so like being able to
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I say eating a pile of goat cheese
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Just like ahhhh
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Eating a pile of goat
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But yeah, being able to sort of take that attachment away of the milk
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because I do love milk
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and so that's kind of nice
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That's great
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How about you?
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In the right spot, Dan, you'll notice I'm wearing a nice little yellow shirt
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with an iCloud print on it
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This is made by one of my partner's friends
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It's a nice looking shirt
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It's very good
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He's got an Etsy store called Flooding Factory
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and it's fucking fantastic
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He's a really talented artist
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He's incredibly over educated
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Right
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Went to one of the finest art schools in the country
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Juilliard?
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No, that's music
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Berkeley?
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No, I think it's
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It's also music
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I think it's the Rhode Island School of Design
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which apparently has a huge fight with Chicago art schools
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Oh no
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It's a disaster
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But yeah
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I got one of these and it's absolutely fantastic
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That's great
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I just, I really like the shirt
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Yeah, it does look good
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That's a nice yellow shirt
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Cool
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Yeah
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Right spot
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Hey, thrilled
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So Jordan, today we've got an interesting episode to go over
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and we'll get down to business on that here in a moment
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but before we do, we had to take a moment to say thank you to some folks who have signed up and are supporting the show
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So first of all, HRH, I'm guessing her royal highnesses
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or his royal highness
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It could be
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King James VIII, thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thank you so much
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I was going to go with human resources, hello?
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Okay, could be
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Richard H, thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thank you, that's a RH
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Yes, it is
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So HR
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Missing the H
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HRHRH
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His Richard H
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Yeah
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Next, Kerstin P, thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thanks Kerstin
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Next AJ, thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thank you AJ
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Thank you AJ
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I don't know how to pronounce this, it's all one word
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DL Ruhenuwel, thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thank you DL Ruhenuwel
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Yup
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Next, Steven D, thank you so much you are now a policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thank you Steve
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And then next, Rook T, that's R-U-H-K, thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk.
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I'm a policy wonk.
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Thank you, Rook T.
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And Underwater Man of the Emerald River, thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk.
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I'm a policy wonk.
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Thank you very much, Underwater Man of the Emerald River.
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I like that.
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Finally, I'd like to say thank you to a couple of people who donated on an elevated level,
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we appreciate that very much.
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So Kaz Errol, thank you so much, you are now a technocrat.
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And Valerie W, thank you so much, you are now a technocrat.
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I'm a policy wonk.
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Crikey mate, that's fantastic, have yourself a brew.
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How's your 401k doing, bro?
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Alright, we gotta go full tilt boogie on this, Watson, alright?
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Let's just get down to business.
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We ain't making that money off that heroin.
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Why you pimps so good?
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My neck is freakishly large.
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I declare info war on you.
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Thank you so much, Valerie W and Kaz Errol.
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Yes, thank you very much.
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To the both of you.
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Yes, if you're out there listening and thinking, hey, I enjoy the show, I'd like to support
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what these gents do, you can do that by going to our website, knowledgefight.com, clicking
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the button that says support the show, we would appreciate it.
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Very much so.
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Or if you'd like to, you could take that generosity, tie it up with a bow.
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I'm just, I'm not.
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You're doing great.
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Keep going.
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No, no, no.
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You gotta just fucking push through.
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I've heard a lot of, do you remember so many inspirational comedians who have said something
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like, you know what, if you don't know where the bit is, just push through it, just keep
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talking.
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Trust yourself in the bit.
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Come on, Dan, you can do it.
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Go to your parents' house, find the cabinet where they keep last year's Christmas paper,
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wrap up that generosity and give it to a local charity.
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See, that's perfect.
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You landed it.
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It's not.
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Come on, you nailed it.
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I'm not made to do this.
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I'm not meant to do this.
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I can't think of ways to wrap things.
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There's only so many.
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There are only a few ways to wrap things.
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I gotta figure out how to do this better.
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Anyway, we would appreciate it if you'd take that generosity and support a local charity
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in your area that's helping people in need.
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We would very much appreciate it.
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Yes.
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So, Jordan, before we get to the episode, we gotta take a moment to look in at the year
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of the season.
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All right.
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A lot of progress.
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All right.
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A lot of progress.
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You putting almond milk in your seltzers now?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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No.
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143 seltzers down at this point.
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Jesus.
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Yep.
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We're coming up on week 10, which will mean that if we're at 150 after week 10, then we
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are officially 50% ahead of where we should be.
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That's wild.
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Yeah.
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So this is great progress.
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Yeah.
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Very good.
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Yeah.
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Thrilled.
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I'm realizing two things as I get into today's seltzer update.
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The first is that I'm getting really sick and tired of everybody having the same flavors.
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Almost everybody has the same damn flavors.
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Right.
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Right.
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It's annoying.
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Fair.
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It's all just berry.
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Everyone's got a grapefruit.
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None of them are good.
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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Lime, lemon.
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Those are usually pretty good, but you know.
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Effervescent taste.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I really am yearning for something different and some creativity.
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I've hit a little bit of a slog of that.
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Anybody making seltzers out of spiders?
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And I think part of that is really leaning into me really appreciating this week some
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just plain seltzers.
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Like Perrier Plain.
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When you've eaten all of Ben & Jerry's, sometimes you just like to go back to a nice Haagen-Dazs
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vanilla.
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Yeah.
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Sometimes vanilla's great.
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Perrier Plain got in at 73.
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That's pretty damn good.
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All right.
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73 for just a plain, just water that they put some carbonation in.
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Yeah.
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And then very unexpected, I found a brand called Liquid Death.
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That is a really agro can.
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That is aggressive.
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That came in at a 66.
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It was really crisp, really refreshing.
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Oh, that's nice.
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Just plain seltzer water.
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It's nice.
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So did it give you seven days before somebody's going to come out of your TV?
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Conceivably, yeah.
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That sounds right.
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It's going to be Ezio.
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Yeah.
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Going to climb out of my TV.
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Everything is permitted.
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Except bad seltzers.
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Yes, exactly.
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Second thing, maybe this is unpermitted, I believe on our first time that we started
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talking about seltzers, I had a confession and that was that I didn't like Spindrift.
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Right.
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I've tried a couple more Spindrifts and they're not as bad as I think.
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Oh, no.
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I think I originally just had some bad flavors.
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I think I got the first ones that I tried were just some shitty flavors, but I've had
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a couple like the raspberry lime was pretty good.
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I can't remember exactly what it came in at, what do we got, 57.
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That's not a great score, but I expected it to be shit based on what I thought about Spindrift.
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That's fair.
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Not as bad.
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Congratulations.
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Spindrift.
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Not as bad as I thought.
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Slightly exceeds expectations.
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Yes.
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Still not a compliment.
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Nope.
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Nope.
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But okay.
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Yeah.
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And that's about it for the seltzers.
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All right.
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So Jordan, today, this episode that we're doing here is not an Alex Jones episode because
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Alex was still out of the studio.
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Still out of studio.
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Well, I believe he came back over the weekend, we're recording this on Sunday, and I think
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that he did some coverage of Trump's rally from last night.
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Sure.
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A resounding success.
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I haven't read the news.
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Oh, huge.
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Huge.
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Huge.
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Quick question.
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Has Bill Hicks been doing shows again?
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No.
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No.
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Although that is an interesting theory, I am guessing that he just took the week off.
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Oh, okay.
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That would make sense.
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I don't know.
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I imagine he has a lot to get in order with his house.
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Not his literal house, but his metaphorical house.
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Sure.
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I would assume that is just some kind of a need to take care of business.
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Some administrative stuff.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Maybe he'll explain when he gets back.
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But I figured that that would not be really enough for us to really bank on being an episode
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by the time we need to get to recording.
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So we'll save that for Wednesday.
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And today, I'd like to start off this episode with an explanation.
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About a month ago, we started covering Bill Cooper's coverage of the Oklahoma City bombing,
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which I had sincerely intended to become a running weekly investigation.
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I was so confident that we were going to keep moving forward that I teased that I'd found
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something that made me dance around my apartment, which to this point has not been revealed.
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It is the computer chip in a homeless man of our show.
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That's not fair.
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And that tease wasn't fair.
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And I'm sorry that people have had to live in that confusion.
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I promise that that mystery will be solved today.
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The issue was that the very next week from when we started that, we learned that Project
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Camelot was going to a subscription model, and as such, I felt an obligation to check
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in on that.
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Camelot's been a large part of this podcast's history, and it's been an important pressure
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release, as well as an interesting case study in how so many of these different fields of
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weird conspiracy share a ton of DNA.
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So Camelot filled the next week's open slot for a non-Alex episode.
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And then that was the week that the police murdered George Floyd, sparking protests and
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an important movement that runs directly counter to what Alex Jones wants to see in the world.
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It felt critical that we keep a sharp eye on the present day of his show, and I know
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that you and I had conversations about how it would feel bizarre to do an episode and
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it not be about Alex's take on the evolving situation, the protests, all of that seemed
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like...
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Sure.
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It was important to chronicle it.
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Even if Alex's response to it was not necessarily as interesting as you might have expected.
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I'm pretty sure we had this conversation at the same time, which was, it's going to be
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disappointing.
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Probably.
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It's just probably going to be disappointing.
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I don't recall if we necessarily had that conversation, but we definitely could have.
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It's a mind belt.
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So that took on a life of its own.
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And also, through those couple weeks, I was trying to move, which took up a ton of my
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time.
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Our episode from Friday about Owen's dumb push-up contest was the product of multiple
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influences.
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The first was that Alex had been out of studio all week.
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The second was that I really needed something kind of light to discuss since we were recording
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just a few days after I moved, and I was still working on settling into this new place.
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And Owen's dumb push-up contest fit that bill amazingly.
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It is empty.
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I would probably have rather done a Bill Cooper, Oklahoma City episode.
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Like I even said on the episode, this isn't the kind of meaty thing I want to be doing.
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But I just couldn't swing it for a couple of reasons.
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The first was a time issue.
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Cooper episodes are dense, and they require a lot more prep time.
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The second issue is probably more important, and that was that I needed to finish reading
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Bill Cooper's biography, Pale Horse Rider.
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Our show focuses on Alex Jones, who doesn't have a biography written about him yet.
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So the idea of reading one about another person we were covering seemed strange to me.
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I almost felt like cheating.
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I really enjoy the process of discovery that comes from having no idea what's going to
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come up, and we're just diving in and learning as we go.
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That works all right with Alex or these space weirdos, but I realize that with Bill Cooper,
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not consulting that text is essentially missing a big part of the story.
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There are important pieces of context in that biography that I wouldn't ever have gotten
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from just listening to the hour or the time, and those pieces of context are pretty important.
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So I felt it would be irresponsible for me to move forward and do another episode about
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Bill Cooper without taking in that biography and really sitting with it.
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This leads me to what I would want to give as a sort of sizable clarification.
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We were wrong to give Bill the benefit of the doubt as it relates to him being a gigantic
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piece of shit.
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Oh, great.
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Yeah.
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Why do we always find that out?
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I seem like a bit of a drunk and an asshole, but I was unaware of how violently abusive
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he was to his wives.
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This, among other revelations, have caused me to question my stance of, hey, Bill's bad,
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but at least he's not Alex.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I was unaware of a lot of the depths of some of the stuff in his personal life, and that
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was wrong of us to... Well, I don't know if it was wrong.
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It was incomplete of us.
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Yeah, yeah.
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The problem is we're dealing almost exclusively with tremendous monsters, so we're so far
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below the Mendoza line of just general being a fair human being that simply because we
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speak about you on our show, chances are you should assume that they're the worst human
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being in the world.
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Maybe so, but this, I mean, it's a pretty big part of his life.
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He pushed one of his wives out of a moving car while she was holding their daughter.
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Right.
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Like, he's a fucking monster.
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Yeah, that's a monster.
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Yeah.
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That's a monster.
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Yeah, I mean, the level to which he was that is something that... I don't know if we played
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down, but we weren't aware of the depths of it, and I feel bad about that, and now knowing
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that... Like any glowing biography of Norman Mailer,
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you're wrong.
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I would like to now, knowing this stuff, make an apology for not being aware of this earlier.
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Overall, I think that book, Pale Horse Rider, does a really good job of demonstrating how
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much of a liar Bill Cooper was without outright making accusations.
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Beyond these things, there was one piece of information in that book that's very relevant
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to our current exploration about Oklahoma City, which I highly doubt I would have learned
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about from listening to Bill's show.
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We'll get to that down the road, and also the thing that made me dance around my apartment
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as we go through this.
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Also, I recommend that book very highly.
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It's pretty good.
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I'm going to read it now.
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I'm excited.
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We're going to start this off where we left off.
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We left off a couple days after the bombing, and our next episode is on April 24th.
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If you don't recall, Bill Cooper had largely decided that it was a false flag, trying to
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make patriots look bad, standard operating, right-wing militia kind of narrative.
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One of his big pieces of it was that seismograph that he was misinterpreting that alleged to
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show two bombs, and then misunderstandings about people who had gotten on police scanners
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and said that they thought that there was another bomb in the building.
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Bill has just taken those things and used them as definitive proof.
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Examples of incuriousness leading to disaster.
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And conclusion jumping, run amok.
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Monsters.
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So, we jump in here as Bill begins on April 24th, 1995.
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I'm William Cooper, and you're listening to The Hour of the Time.
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Well, we have a much larger audience tonight, folks, thanks to the propaganda press.
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And a lot of the new audience are the press, who I am absolutely refused to even talk to
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except to tell them to go themselves.
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And I will continue that.
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What did he mean?
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They are wise.
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They are scum.
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They have no moral values, they have no ethics, and they certainly wouldn't know the truth
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if it hit them in the head.
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Bill's on shortwave and he does a better job of censoring himself than Alex does.
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It's pretty remarkable.
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So there's such an interesting phenomenon that seems almost entirely consistent, which
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is that when there's terrifying, seemingly random tragedies in this country, people flock
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to whoever is most loudly calling it fake.
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Alex got a huge surge out of 9-11 denial, and we've seen him explicitly discuss how
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his traffic increased in the days after the Boston bombing when he was yelling about it
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being a false flag.
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We've also seen him discuss lately how his COVID-19 denialism led to an increase in viewership.
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This makes some sense, but it also says something really sad about people.
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It's scary to process things like a bombing or a virus outbreak, and we crave easy answers.
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A pandemic is terrifying and there's no easy fix to it, so it becomes very appealing to
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listen to the person saying that the virus itself is no big deal and that all the actual
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problems could be solved by killing the globalists.
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A random bombing carried out by domestic extremists is super terrifying because no matter how
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much the police might try, they'll never be able to uncover and stop every possible plot
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people may come up with.
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It's just a reassuring thought to believe that, you know, there's an evil cabal of globalists
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who are orchestrating all of these bombings, and if they're just taken care of, the bombings
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will magically go away.
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Yeah, if you had to grapple with the reality that ultimately no one knows what's going
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on, the world is complete chaos, and really you can bully a lot of people who think they're
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powerful into doing whatever it is you want them to do.
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So that's kind of scary.
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That's a real bummer.
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It is.
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It is terrifying.
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Yeah, it's really terrifying.
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In times of crisis, these kinds of narratives are an attractive crutch to reach out for,
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and I'm depressed but not surprised to see the people who are behaving the same way back
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in the times of Bill Cooper.
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It's unfortunate for the listeners because all they get is junk food narratives that
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mean nothing and go nowhere, but it's also bad for people like Bill and Alex.
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They learn the wrong lessons from this kind of reinforcement.
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They learn, whether consciously or not, that denying tragedy is something that draws, which
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definitely has been a lesson that screwed Alex over more than once.
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Yeah, well, personally, I think it's a bad idea to just immediately deny something happened.
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That's just me, though.
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That's an interesting angle that you have.
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I've been known-
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Prove your case.
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Lately, I've been known for my hot takes.
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I've been tossing them around left and right, hot takes like, hey, let's not kill people.
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Hey, Jordan.
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Hey.
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Jordan, that's a tree.
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Prove it.
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Shit.
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I don't even know what you're wearing right now.
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Shirt.
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Prove it.
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Yeah, I mean, a knee-jerk denial of things that are really scary and providing easy answers
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and identifiable explanations for things.
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It is an attractive thing, and it's just sad.
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I mean, I don't know.
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Like I said, it's a bummer, but it's expected.
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I think it's really interesting, just because deep down, regardless of you can hate authority
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or you can love authority, whomever may be in power at any given point in time, but what
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unites most people is just that, I want to believe somebody is in charge.
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I want to believe there's an adult in the room.
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There needs to be an adult in the room, and there simply aren't.
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Yeah, and I think that that is part of what's being exploited, and then also the way that
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it's done is unearned confidence.
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Totally, totally.
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Just bullying.
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Yeah, Bill and Alex both project themselves as like, we've done 20 years of research on
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all this, and I know everything, and all that.
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I know everything about seismographs, and I can tell you that for sure there was two
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explosions.
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Yeah, no kidding.
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He doesn't know any of that stuff, and if he was being completely honest about it, he'd
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be like, I don't know what this means.
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This is weird, and that wouldn't draw.
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That wouldn't give people's attention.
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You need to speak authoritatively about things you have no business being authoritative about,
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and that will give people the false confidence that they need to put aside those feelings
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of fear and uncertainty.
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Something nobody likes to hear is, let's wait until all the facts are in.
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Right.
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Ooh, no.
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No, thank you.
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That's no good.
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No.
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So, Bill's mad at the media, of course.
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This episode is actually titled CNN Communist News Network.
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Ooh, he got them.
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And he actually has initials for all the news organizations, like National Broadcasting
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Communists as NBC.
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Sure, sure.
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Perfect.
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I love it.
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Just throw communists wherever there's a C, like CBS's Communist Broadcast Service.
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Friends of ex-communists.
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Ugh, just come on, man.
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Come on.
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They have sold out for an opportunity to have their ugly mugs on your television set.
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Somehow they think that's worth losing all their liberties for, and of course, the promise
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that if they're really good and do what they're supposed to do and echo the Marxist-socialist
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party line that they might get to have a retirement check someday, well, I hope they get it.
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I hope they get it, and I hope they get it from the cause that they're working for, because
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they will live to regret it.
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Actually, folks, I don't really hope that they get it, because if they do, it means
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the end of all of us, and it means the end of liberty.
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Ooh, that's bad.
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You see, if we lose our liberty in this country, the whole world goes down.
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That doesn't sound right.
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We are the last bastion of freedom, and we are the only ones who can save it.
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That's just not true.
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We're the only people left in the world with the right to keep and bear arms.
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That's also not true.
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That doesn't sound right at all.
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No, that's not true.
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But you know what I was thinking about it, because it's demonstrably not true.
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You can own guns in other countries.
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But I think it's because of what his definition of right to bear arms is.
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Sure, sure, sure.
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I think that he has, and people like Bill, have such a absolutist view of what that right
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entails.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, maybe.
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Maybe based on your definition, the US is the only country.
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But until you define your terms, I can't even argue with it.
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No matter what, the goalposts will be moved.
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Yeah.
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You can already tell.
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I suspect that.
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Yeah.
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So in this next clip, Bill says something as suspicious as, we're the only country that
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can have guns.
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Oh, I can just see the socialist pukes twinging, twinging when they hear that.
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You see, they don't want you to know that Nazi means socialism.
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Nazi means national socialism.
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Hitler was a socialist.
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Nazi Germany was socialism.
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That's right, folks.
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You heard it right here.
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You see, in this world today, they're trying to turn everything around so that wrong is
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right and right is wrong.
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I don't know, man.
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I think that any time you hear someone say that Nazis were socialist-
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Bye.
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Yeah.
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It's indicative of like, it's headline reading.
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Yeah.
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Because I mean, like, yes, socialism isn't the name.
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It's in the name.
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Well, and obviously since Democratic is in the name of North Korea's republic, we can
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assume that they have the right to vote.
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I imagine they probably have the right to keep and bear arms, right, Dan?
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I would think so.
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I think so.
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Yeah.
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I mean, this is Dinesh D'Souza level stuff, quite frankly.
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I don't know.
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It's the mark of somebody you should not be listening to.
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That is as reasonable as believing that Americans for progress is interested in progress or
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Americans.
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Yep.
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It's all in the name.
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Yeah.
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So, Bill gets to talking about Nazis and he lays out the history of the Reichstag fire
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and fine, whatever.
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You got us.
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I'm interested in relitigating a lot of certain issues.
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One of them is the Reichstag fire and another is Waco.
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Like, when Bill brings up and starts yelling about Waco, I don't care.
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I will talk about that on episodes that are about Waco.
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I'm not doing that while we're covering the Oklahoma City bombing.
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It's too much.
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It's too much.
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We're focusing.
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We're focused.
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Right.
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So, I'm not going to argue with him about the Reichstag fire right now, but I am going
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to take issue with how he uses it, and this is not great.
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During immediately informed Hitler and Goebbels, this is a communist outrage.
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One of the communist culprits has been arrested.
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Wow.
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Talk about speed.
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Remind you of anything?
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They're talking about people vaporized in Oklahoma City, yet they found immediately
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enough parts of a truck to identify those who rented it and make absolutely accurate
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photographic sketches and get them on the wire service so quick.
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So like I said, he's in the middle of reading basically an essay one of his listeners wrote
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about the Reichstag fire, and he's editorializing here to compare that, how that unfolded, to
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the current situation with the Oklahoma City bombing.
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What grade did he get?
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Hmm?
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The listener.
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The listener probably got an A because Bill's grading, and he's not a hard teacher.
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Okay, fair.
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You provide him content, you get a pat on the head.
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So Bill seems to bring up two specific complaints.
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One is that a suspect was identified too quickly for his taste, and two, it's absurd that they
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found an axle which led to the Ryder truck that Timothy McVeigh used for the bombing.
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The story about the axle is actually pretty interesting, and you can find corroborating
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information about that find pretty much wherever you look.
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There's an indie online piece from earlier this year where they interviewed Dennis Muntian,
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a firefighter who was a responder to the bombing, looking back on it 25 years later.
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Muntian was 19 years old when he assisted in the response to the Murrah building, and
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if you read his account, you'll find this.
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Quote, Muntian recalled on his walk to the bombing site, he pointed to a truck axle in
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the middle of the road.
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Twelve hours later as he walked back to the bus, investigators were circling the axle
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and studying it.
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He later learned that it was from the Ryder truck loaded with explosives.
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This firefighter had seen the axle, which he didn't think was necessarily meaningful
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at all.
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Could have been from another car in the area or whatever.
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So that was when he was entering the scene, and it wasn't until later that that item was
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seen as significant.
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It's not weird at all, really, that a destructive bomb could discharge something like a truck
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axle and have a completely different effect on other matter surrounding it.
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It's how explosions work.
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Yeah, it wasn't until Paradise City that anybody really cared about the axle.
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Oh, come on, man.
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All right.
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I should be more supportive.
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I'm going to take that one down.
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I should be more supportive.
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I'm going to take that one down.
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Edit that one down.
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That's payback for you not liking my sound drops.
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Edit one down.
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Okay, fair enough.
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Bill's making a nonsensical point here about how he thinks the axle should have been disintegrated
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or something like that.
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Sure.
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It just doesn't mean anything.
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Yeah.
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In the real world, this axle was found and traced to a Ryder truck, which then led to
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a specific location that the truck was rented from.
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The employee of the truck shop gave the FBI information and a description to make a composite
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sketch, which they then took around to all the businesses in Oklahoma City, ultimately
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finding a hotel where the staff recognized him and put a name to the face.
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It went pretty quick because this was a crime that required around the clock work by all
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available agents.
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Timothy McVeigh had already been arrested at this point.
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He'd been pulled over by a state trooper 90 minutes after the bombing approximately 80
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miles north of Oklahoma City, which is about where you'd expect a guy to be if he was fleeing.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It's about the right distance.
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I would have gone south, but I'm imagining because he was so racist, Mexico was out of
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the situation.
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Might have been.
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Might have been.
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Unclear.
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Yeah, yeah.
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McVeigh was missing a license plate and was found to have a concealed weapon, so he was
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arrested and while he was being held, the word went out that the FBI had put a name
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to the sketch and it was this guy.
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It's pretty remarkable how quickly a suspect was determined and it's a weird quirk that
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he'd already been arrested for a seemingly unrelated charge, but none of that proves
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anything nefarious.
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The timing and causality of these events makes total sense, so I'm going to need to see stronger
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arguments here from Bill to be convinced that this is a New World Order plot.
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It just doesn't... You can yell about like, oh, they found a guy so quick.
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It's like the Reichtag, how they fingered the commies and it's just like, it's not necessarily
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the same thing at all.
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It does feel like everyone in this... When you go through this story, unlike so many
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others, it does feel like everybody is acting almost reasonably.
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There's nobody who's doing something absolutely insane on the side.
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Any time you read about... Like Waco, who was doing something insane on the side?
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Yeah.
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Yeah, everybody would... The federal agents fuck up.
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All of this shit happens all the time, but in this situation, everybody's like, he bombed
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a federal building.
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Let's get round the clock shit to find this guy.
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I'm almost certain if you looked far enough, you could find probably some example of some
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botched.
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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The cop still planted a gram of weed on Timothy McVeigh just in case.
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Sure.
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You got to plant something on that.
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You can't prove that.
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That's a Bill Cooper ass theory right there.
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Yeah.
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I mean, there's just these thin, flimsy analogs that he's trying to make with the Reichtag
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fire and it's just no good.
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It's unearned entirely.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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He goes on because he talks about the motive.
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Hitler controls some 250 seats, not a clear majority.
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If he could wipe out the critical 100 communist seats, he would win his battle for power.
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Nazi authorities had already raided the Karl Liebknecht House, headquarters of the Communist
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Party in Blint, but they had failed to incriminate the communists in a revolutionary conspiracy
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as a pretext for silencing them.
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They had to think of something else, because the date for a national election was vast
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approaching.
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And so, Hitler burned the Reichstag, blamed it on his political enemies, and seized control
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of Germany, and you know the rest, and the same thing is happening here, now.
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This argument is dumb.
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No, that's insane.
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Yeah, it's the result of desperately straining to make connections between historical events
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and present circumstances.
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It's one thing to say that Hitler blamed the Reichtag fire on communists in order to solidify
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his power and demonize his enemies, but it's a completely different thing to claim that
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it's the same thing going on with Oklahoma City.
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Bill Clinton became president in 1992 and was up for reelection in 96.
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Over the 94 midterm elections, the Republican Party had control of both the House and Senate,
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so presumably what Bill Cooper is trying to imply is that Bill Clinton was trying to blame
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the OKC bombing on the right-wing extremists to take control of Congress in the 1996 election.
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This did not happen, as the Republicans held onto their majorities in both the House and
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Senate as well as their majority of governorships around the country.
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Yeah, it's always nice to remember when you look at our political system today that once
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we were allowing Newt Gingrich to roam the earth with power, which is a terrible idea.
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He comes up every now and again and I'm like, whoa.
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Right?
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Whoa.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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That guy.
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Really?
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Newt.
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Newt Gingrich?
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We allowed that?
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God damn.
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Narratives like the one Bill is putting forth here sound good if you're looking for a way
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to blame your political enemies for everything bad that happens, but at a certain point you
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have to take a step back and recognize how none of the things that should happen if Bill
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Cooper is right ever happen.
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The Clintons didn't use OKC to bring in a socialist dictatorship and they didn't even
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win Congress the next year.
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This should lead you to question the conclusions that Bill, like he's just talking shit.
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Here's my problem with his internal logic.
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If he's painting the Nazis as a socialist regime with, as he would call it, a Marxist
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socialist doctrine, why is Hitler trying to get rid of the communists instead of allying
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with him?
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I don't think I follow.
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Well, he's saying that Hitler is an avowed socialist.
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He considers Marxism and socialism to be equal and the same, I suppose.
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So why is it that Hitler hates the communists in his worldview, wherein Hitler is also a
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communist?
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Wouldn't it be possible to just wrangle them in and be like, hey, we're getting a communist
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system and they're like, wow, we don't like fascism and he's like, or I'll kill you and
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they're like, we love fascism.
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I gotta be honest, I have no answer for that.
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Yeah, right?
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It doesn't make any sense.
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Yeah.
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It makes no sense because you're saying that Hitler and the communists are the same people,
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but he's got to get rid of them to take over.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Very smart.
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Yeah, that's a good point.
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That's a very smart person.
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That's a good point.
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I legitimately, I try to enter these people's minds to understand the logic and the thinking
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and I don't know.
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I think I could answer from Alex's perspective, but from Bill's, I don't know.
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I don't know what he would say.
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He would say that the communists and the Nazis are not actually of the same ilk, but they're
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being controlled by the same people to be against each other.
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That's smart.
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That's what Alex would say, but I don't know what Bill's take on it would be because the
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way he's presenting it, it does seem contradictory.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It doesn't make any sense.
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I got nothing for you, man.
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Fair enough.
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So there's not a whole lot of development of the storyline of the OKC bombing in terms
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of Bill's conspiracy on this episode.
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There's just mostly continuation and here on this 24th, we see him continue to talk
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about the seismographs and the multiple sound waves.
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So there's no mistake, and I am not making this up, he clearly says, ladies and gentlemen,
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I don't care what the government says, these are clearly two separate and distinct events,
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both of the same magnitude and the same duration, parted by ten seconds, ten seconds.
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He clearly shows us how to read this.
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He shows us a train that passed close to the sensor.
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He shows us normal traffic, heavy traffic, and then the two events, two separate and
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distinct explosions, not echoes.
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The source is Dr. Luza of the Oklahoma Geological Survey, Starkey Energy Center, University
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of Oklahoma, Norman, Oklahoma, and we received this information on the 21st of April at 1.20
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p.m.
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Thanks for the time stamp.
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Why isn't the communist news networks, why aren't they reporting this?
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The government is lying, ladies and gentlemen.
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To clarify, the media's not covering this because Bill's misrepresenting this information,
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not because the media's lying.
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The Oklahoman reached out to Dr. Ken Luza to get a comment about this, because Bill
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was going on and on about it on air, and from the article in The Oklahoman, quote, Luza
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said the second event recorded on the seismograph could have been a secondary reaction, which
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he referred to as a refraction effect from the explosion at the federal building in Oklahoma
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City.
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The further reading could have also come from a quarry blast.
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Luza described the waves detected in Norman as surface waves.
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He said without seismographic readings from two other locations, geologists cannot determine
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where the waves came from.
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Sounds like the government is lying to you, Todd.
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Sure.
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This mystery is solved eventually, as we discussed in our last episode, but that was what The
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Oklahoman was putting out then.
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Having got comment from Dr. Luza, The Oklahoman reached out to Bill Cooper to get his response,
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which was predictable.
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I'll see you in hell!
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Quote, contacted for comment Friday, Cooper said, the press has been discredited in the
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eyes of all patriots.
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Don't you ever call me until you learn how to print the truth.
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God damn it.
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God damn it, Cooper.
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What a dick.
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This piece of information that Bill has latched onto as proof of multiple explosions is not
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true.
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The foundation of his conspiracy is something that he's misunderstanding, and he's reinforcing
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his misunderstanding by misrepresenting the comments of an expert.
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This is just bad work.
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This is bad work.
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Yeah, if an expert says two things, refraction and I'm going to need the confirmation from
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two other sources, that means the government is fucking lying to you, Dan.
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I don't care what the government says.
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No, it's I don't give a shit what the government says.
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I'm gonna tell this person who listens to Bill Cooper's radio show and emails him constantly
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that I can tell you definitively the government is lying.
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It's the only thing that makes sense to me.
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I don't buy that.
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So Bill develops a little bit of another tendril of conspiracy here.
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Very suspiciously, a lot of senior supervisory personnel were not at work that day.
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Were not at work.
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Why?
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Who warned them?
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What the fuck is this?
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That's not even reporting.
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Who warned them?
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That's rumor-mongering.
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Who warned them?
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That doesn't mean anything.
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How many people is Bill talking about not being at work?
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He calls them senior supervisors, but senior supervisors of what?
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Bill has no specifics, just vague insinuations, which seems like it's counter to his motto
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of always doing your research and not passing along rumors.
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Well, I mean, they were important senior advisors on account of they were the how do we keep
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this building from being bombed advisors, so that they were missing was kind of a tell.
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Yeah, that's the one that's going to do it, I think.
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How can someone who pretends to be a just the facts kind of investigator get on his
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show and report that an unspecific number of senior supervisors for an unspecified agency
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weren't at work on the day of the bombing without substantiating that at all, then use
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the insinuation to assert that someone must have warned them not to come to work?
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Even if we go ahead and assume that an uncommon number of supervisors were not in the building
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when the bomb went off, how can Bill prove that someone had to have warned them?
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Is it not possible that some of them might have been in the field or on assignment?
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Is it not possible that some might have called in to work sick that day?
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There's a ton of possibilities that Bill's just completely ignoring because the conclusion
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has already been reached in his mind, and the process of reporting on this story only
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exists to serve the goal of solidifying that conclusion.
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Bill Cooper basically cosplays as a guy who's looking for the truth.
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Sometimes it manifests in good ways, like when he scolds his listeners for bringing
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up unfounded nonsense.
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But in reality, those are not instances of him caring about the truth.
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When Bill scolds his callers for bringing up rumors, that's really just him expressing
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his authority over the audience.
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It's good research when he passes along rumors, but it's abhorrent and stupid when the listeners
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do the same thing.
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It's basically cult leader stuff, where it's a sin for you to do something that's a virtue
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for me.
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It's deeply messed up.
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Yeah, I was thinking he's more like less interested in the truth and more interested in controlling
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what the truth is.
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It has nothing to do with searching for anything.
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It has everything to do with being like, this is concrete, and I know it.
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And kind of like setting the terms of the search itself.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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We can have disagreements on very small surface level things, but if you come at me with anything
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like, it's not a false flag, I will kill you.
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Yeah, and I'll accuse you of doing the same bullshit I do.
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You're the communist news network.
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So in this next clip, Bill discusses the arrest of Timothy McVeigh, and this is messed up
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stuff.
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And this brilliant explosives expert, who planned and carried out one of the most terrible
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crimes in the history of the country, speeds away in a car with no license plate, and he
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is speeding the speed limit to the point where he has to get caught, and the officer stops
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him, notices he doesn't have a license plate, and begins writing a ticket, glances inside
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the car, and sees a concealed weapon.
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Yeah.
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It was a concealed weapon.
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How did he see it?
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Ooh, you got him.
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Oh my.
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The plot thickens.
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This really begins to eat it, folks.
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This guy made no attempt to get away, made no attempt to shoot the officer, yet he's
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blown up a building full of people.
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There's no desperation here.
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So first of all, Bill's playing games here about the idea that if a weapon is concealed,
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it would be impossible for a cop to see it.
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He's invisible.
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That's ridiculous.
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And the fact that Bill's going down that road is kind of embarrassing.
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It's an indication of how weak his position is, and he's just trying to cast doubt and
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make the arrest suspicious.
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There's something interesting going on here with Bill's claim that, you know, it's weird
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that he didn't try and kill the police officer, that Timothy McVeigh didn't try to kill him.
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Yeah, that's a little weird.
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That's a real telling kind of thing that you expect someone to do.
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It's weird.
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Six years after the bombing, a right-wing media figure would tell a story about how
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they had met with Timothy McVeigh and an associate before the bombing.
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The meeting ended with them telling him to, quote, watch Oklahoma City.
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But one of the topics of conversation was, what should McVeigh do if he's pulled over
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by the police?
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Quote, just take the ticket and go on your way, was the advice McVeigh was given, to
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which he replied, quote, you don't think I should shoot them?
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This was rebuffed, quote, why would you shoot someone over a ticket?
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That right-wing figure was Bill Cooper.
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Get the fuck out of here.
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Do not say that to me.
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Get the fuck out of here.
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When Bill Cooper saw the sketch of Timothy McVeigh and saw that he was the main suspect
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for the Oklahoma City bombing, he had to have realized that he'd met that guy and was pretty
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fucked up.
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Bill had to realize that he'd seen McVeigh in possession of a bunch of copies of the
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Turner Diaries and that he'd been told to, quote, watch Oklahoma City, according to Bill's
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own telling of the story.
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That's a real, I mean, I could see him, you know, narcissistically inserting himself into
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the story, but also that's deeply, deeply fucked.
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Yeah, this doesn't...
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If that's true, that's really fucked up.
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This doesn't seem like the right kind of inserting yourself into the story.
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I don't know, I mean, you know, some people confessed to murders they didn't commit.
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I don't know.
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It's true.
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So McVeigh and his associate had been traveling on I-40 when they decided to stop in at Surplus
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and Stuff, the owner of which was a friend of Bill Cooper's named Tim Lesperance.
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According to Pale Horse Rider, quote, Lesperance asked them if they'd ever heard of Bill Cooper.
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Sure they had, the two men said.
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Bill Cooper was their favorite.
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They listened to him all the time.
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That sounds Alex-y.
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Lesperance told them he could introduce them and that's how the meeting came to happen.
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Eventually investigators learned that another man named Michael Fortier had been aware of
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the plot to blow up the Murrah building, but it dropped out of the conspiracy before it
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came to fruition.
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Pale Horse Rider includes a passage from an interview that Michael Fortier did in August
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1995 with an outlet called the Outpost of Freedom.
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Quote, what led to the bombing, Hunt asked Fortier, who had backed out of the Murrah
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building plot halfway through and later served as the state's star witness against his former
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compatriots.
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Well, Fortier sighed, I can't say a whole lot, but we heard a lot of tapes and saw videos
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and read things.
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There is this guy with a radio station in Arizona, Phil Cooper.
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He kept calling people sheeple and was mad that they ain't doing anything to change things.
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Well, we got to thinking, that's right, things need to change.
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Tim really responded to that.
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Bill's work of trying to build up a conspiracy theory that gets Timothy McVeigh off the hook
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is sloppy and desperate and possibly on some level that could be motivated by a recognition
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that he knows fully well he's part of what inspired the bombing.
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This is basically the same behavior that we see from Alex Jones all the time and it's
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an important thing to understand.
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While this is certainly not a universal thing, a lot of conspiracy theory operates as a way
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to cover up the unpleasant and damning parts of one's own community that you don't want
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to recognize and accept are real.
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Alex constantly comes up with conspiracy theories to minimize and ignore white supremacist violence
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because he knows that his show operates on a white identity level that has a possibility
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of inspiring such acts.
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Similarly, he knows that his extremist gun absolutist rhetoric requires him to come up
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with conspiracy theories every time there's a mass shooting.
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The reality of mass shootings and white supremacist violence are threatening to Alex's worldview,
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so it's important that those things be denied and explained away with conspiracy theories.
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It's the globalists doing it.
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They juiced somebody up.
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It's mind control.
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In the same way, Bill Cooper's entire thing is very threatened by the idea that someone
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who was directly inspired by his show and ideology could have bombed a federal building
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and killed tons of people.
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It's the ugly conclusion of the rhetoric that he's put out and Bill knows that, so this
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requires a conspiracy.
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Yeah, that's, I mean, I can't, I can't believe that.
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Yeah.
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Like I could not, I could not live with myself.
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Like the idea that you could just go on with your show and just use denial, just basic
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denial with the full awareness that this guy, you knew this guy, you met this guy.
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Well, there's no indication that they knew each other well or anything.
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No, no, no.
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I'm not saying that.
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I would believe that initially, maybe Bill wouldn't immediately realize that this is
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the guy.
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Sure.
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But that would fuck me up forever.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Jesus.
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Yeah.
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Bill wouldn't tell his story of meeting McVeigh until a few years later, but even here, mere
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days after the bombing, you can see the ripple of Bill's influence.
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Timothy McVeigh could have shot the cop who pulled him over and he might have gotten away,
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but he didn't because he was just pulled over from missing a plate and as Bill Cooper had
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allegedly told him, why kill someone over a ticket?
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And here on air, Bill is baffled by the decision that he very well might have advised Timothy
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McVeigh to make and is using that decision as proof that McVeigh couldn't be the bomber
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because if he was, he would have tried to kill the cop.
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Whoa.
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Man, man, man.
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Inadvertently inspiring the OKC bombing and inadvertently catching the OKC bomber is a
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very strange existence to live.
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Yeah.
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That is real weird.
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Yeah.
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And we're like, this is why I needed to finish the work before we could get back to business
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on this stuff.
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Yeah.
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Oh, man.
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So that is a mess and this will develop a little bit as we go through the rest of this
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episode.
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But before that, we've got to get to what made me dance around the apartment.
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OK.
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Mic down.
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Larry Nichols on the Jazz McKay show WWWE at 11 a.m. in Cleveland identified one of
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the suspects from the artist's drawings as either Brown or Boyd of Mina, Arkansas.
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And speaking of Mina, Arkansas, Hillary Clinton will be indicted.
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My information is that she has already been indicted in secret and it will be announced
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to the public sometime within the next week.
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Yeah.
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So Larry Nichols is in play.
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That was a fucking rollercoaster ride.
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We start with Larry Nichols is in place.
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Oh, yeah.
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Of course.
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And then we end with QAnon Hillary Clinton has already been secretly indicted.
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Sure.
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God, nothing ever changes.
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Nope.
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That's another thing that I want to really drive home looking at this coverage of the
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OKC bombing.
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It's like it's less sophisticated in terms of the radio, you know, whereas a lot of this
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propaganda is so much more media savvy now.
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Yeah.
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Way more media savvy.
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But so much of it is exactly the same tricks.
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God, you can sell it over and over and over again.
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So I know we've been sort of wondering where the worlds of Bill Cooper and Alex Jones would
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intersect as it relates to Larry Nichols.
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And here we have it.
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Part of me had hoped that Bill would be smart enough to not trust Larry.
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But as it turns out, if someone hates Bill Clinton, you just go ahead and believe whatever
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they say.
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That was Larry Nichols' entire career.
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Yep.
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Just like finding people who hate the Clintons a lot and being like...
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Enough to believe him.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Back in the 90s, there wasn't, there just wasn't a conspiracy that didn't somehow link
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back to Larry Nichols somehow, which is awesome.
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Because it allows you to laugh at pretty much everyone who took him seriously.
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And unreal.
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Yeah.
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Unreal.
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Also, like what you were pointing out, that thing about Hillary is fascinating.
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Mostly because this is a meme that's recently been resurrected on social media and spread
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around by dumb dumbs.
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Not just the QAnon, like this specifically.
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For about the Jesus.
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Exactly what Bill is talking about.
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We're all gonna die.
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Yeah.
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The Clintons at the time were in the middle of the Whitewater scandal.
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But Hillary wasn't set to be indicted, nor was she secretly indicted.
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According to a 1995 article in the Washington Post, this theory was spread by a guy named
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Sherman Skolnick, a contributor at the Conspiracy Nation newsletter.
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Skolnick was, quote, convinced that either Clinton's financial supporters or someone
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in the government ordered the bombing to obscure the fact that two days earlier, Hillary Rodham
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Clinton was indicted on two felony counts in the Whitewater probe.
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Sure.
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Secret indictments are kind of a standard trope of conspiracy, as you can see from the
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present and from the mid-90s.
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They're an appealing angle because there is such a thing as a sealed indictment, so you
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can craft all kinds of theories about them that feel like truth to people.
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Yeah, I'm waiting to find out fucking Xerxes's son was secretly indicted, for God's sakes.
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Go to bed.
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It's so old.
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It's so old, yeah.
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The bottom line here is that Hillary was not indicted for Whitewater, and it has nothing
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to do with the Oklahoma City bombing.
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This is just another weak attempt on Bill Cooper's part to do anything he can to take
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the blame off his big fan, Timothy McVeigh.
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Man, that's nuts.
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Uh-huh.
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So this brings us to the end of the 24th, and we jump in on the 25th.
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And man, this was not a good episode.
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This is a bad episode.
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So it wasn't labeled very good.
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No, no.
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Only episodes with callers are labeled by quality.
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So Bill gets into, like, you only have a few clips from the 25th, because mostly it's him
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just rambling about militia.
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Sure, sure, sure.
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So in this next clip, he talks about how these aren't militia men.
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Those arrested for the Oklahoma City bombing have not been charged, have not been tried,
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have not been found guilty of anything.
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And in this country, you are innocent until proven guilty.
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Unless you're Hillary, in which case you're already guilty.
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None of them have been or ever will be connected to any militia in this nation.
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They're not militiamen, they're not patriots.
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It's fair enough to point out that people in this country are innocent until they're
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proven guilty.
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The issue comes down to the fact that it's pretty obvious that Bill will consider these
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guys innocent long after and despite the fact that they've been proven guilty of the bombing.
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He doesn't care about the process of law.
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You're innocent even after you're proven guilty.
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He's just using the idea of innocence until being proven guilty as a way to insist that
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they are in fact innocent.
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It may be the case that Timothy McVeigh was not a formal member of a specific militia,
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but that doesn't mean he's not a creature of the same world of militias.
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There's been reporting that shows that Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols attended meetings
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of the Michigan militia.
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Their then leader, Norman Olson, told the Associated Press, quote, these people were
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told to leave because of that kind of talk of destruction and harm and terrorism.
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This naturally is the kind of thing that makes sense to say after someone bombs a federal
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building.
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However, you may sound a little different beforehand.
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Michigan Live pointed out that a year before the bombing, Norman Olson told a recruitment
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meeting, quote, if this country doesn't change, armed conflict is inevitable.
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Eh, well, there's that.
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This is how it goes.
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You bring in disaffected, angry young men with talk of armed conflict, then deny that
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you had anything to do with them when they followed through with those words.
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This is a pattern that you see in right-wing propagandists pretty much across the board.
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Info Wars interviews Jack Passobiec about how scary Comet Ping Pong pizza is, then they
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pretend they never got into Pizzagate stuff after someone shows up at Comet Ping Pong
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with a gun.
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This is how it works.
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On a more meaningful level, the fact that McVeigh may not have been officially in a
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militia is meaningless.
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His beliefs lined up almost entirely with the beliefs of right-wing militias at the
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time.
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He was largely motivated by the government's actions in Waco, which was a galvanizing point
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for pretty much all right-wing militias.
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He had almost identical politics to all of them, so I don't know.
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I don't like calling them militias.
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Malicious calls back to proud, you know, Minutemen kind of history.
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I prefer to call them Civil War pre-enactors.
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Like they're just as lame as Civil War re-enactors.
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That's a good pun.
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It just hasn't happened yet.
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That's a good pun.
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It's so annoying.
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I'll erase your earlier bad joke.
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No, I'm gonna keep that one there.
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Okay.
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So here's the only other clip that I have from this episode, where Bill talks a little
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bit about Timothy McVeigh.
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And this is where I'm totally convinced Bill knows that this is the guy that he had met.
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The one whom I have investigated, Timothy McVeigh, claims to have participated as a
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volunteer in a mind control operation in the United States Army and was implanted with
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a microcomputer chip.
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Aye.
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He's been telling his friends this ever since he left the United States Army, and nobody
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has listened.
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He even claims that the United States Army could follow him by electronic surveillance
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of this chip and knew where he was all the time.
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It's weird that Bill is bringing up this idea that McVeigh had a chip implanted in him,
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because this sort of thing apparently wouldn't require any research for him to know about.
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From Pale Horse Rider, quote, then the withdrawn McVeigh spoke up plaintively.
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He also had a computer chip implanted in his body, he said.
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Cooper could touch it if he wanted to.
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It was in his right buttcheek.
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Quote, he really wanted me to confirm it was there.
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I declined for obvious reasons, Cooper said, suddenly turning sympathetic to the executed
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bomber.
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But I wish to this day that I had not been so squeamish and had personally checked his
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buttock to see if there was something there.
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According to Bill Cooper's own telling of the events, Timothy McVeigh himself told Bill
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that he had a computer chip in his ass.
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So there are two possibilities here.
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One is that Bill is reporting things that he got directly from McVeigh and he's lying
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by omission by not telling the audience where that information came from, because he knew
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that it would probably raise more questions than he'd like if it were known that he'd
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met with the Oklahoma City bomber who was in the process of, you know, he's in the middle
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of creating a conspiracy to defend the guy.
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It wouldn't be a good idea to be like, and listen, my buddy Timothy McVeigh over here,
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he was telling me that he had a computer chip in his ass and I wouldn't touch his ass because
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obvious reasons.
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Look, he had a computer chip in him, I know that because I met him and I'm also trying
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to desperately defend him.
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This doesn't look good.
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He claimed he was being followed, which was obviously true.
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So that's one possibility.
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But the other is that Bill's later story about meeting McVeigh could be totally made up.
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The Associated Press reported about Timothy McVeigh's claim that he had a chip in his
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buttocks as early as April 22nd, 1995, prior to this episode that we're listening to now.
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And it's conceivable that everything in Bill's story of the meeting is just stuff that he'd
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learned after the fact.
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The Turner Diaries detail, the microchip, the warning about Oklahoma City.
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That could all be Bill creating a tall tale.
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Whatever the case, Michael Fortier's interview where he discussed how Timothy McVeigh really
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responded to Bill Cooper's talk about how people needed to actually do something, that's
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information that's not filtered through Bill and thus it can be taken a little bit more
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seriously.
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Bill may or may not have actually met Timothy McVeigh, but he definitely inspired him.
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That's the conclusion that you really can't shake.
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It's the only conclusion you can draw.
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And it also, like, you know, believing Bill's story about meeting Timothy McVeigh is fucked
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up.
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Like, if that's true, it's fucked up.
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If it's not true and he's making that up, what does that say?
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Yeah, exactly.
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Either way, I really, ugh. Cause if you're making that up, it's almost like, hey, I want
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cred with the militias, which means the militias respect what he did, which means all of my
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lies about how it's not militias who want to do this is bullshit.
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Right.
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Right.
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That is another, that is a complexity.
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Yeah.
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So we get in here, we're about to jump to the 26th, but like I said, this episode on
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the 25th is just Bill rambling about how great militias are, and it honestly has no connection
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to the present day or the bombing, really, outside of it being intensely defensive about
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people suddenly being a bit curious about what's going on in these militias.
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I found myself zoning out almost entirely as Bill went on and on about how if you're
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an able-bodied person in Arizona, between the ages of 18 and 45, you're a member of
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the militia, whether you want to be or not.
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It was all just stuff that I couldn't get myself to care about because even if that's
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technically true, according to the Arizona constitution, who cares?
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What does that mean today?
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Probably nothing?
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Most likely nothing.
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Man, you start reading state constitutions, you're going to find all kinds of weird shit.
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If I'm automatically a member of the Illinois militia, let me say this right now, they don't
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need me.
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Are you sure?
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No.
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Okay.
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I'm a conscientious objector to being in a militia.
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You can't be.
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Yeah, that's my plan.
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You can't be.
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How is this different than the draft then?
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Everyone's automatically conscribed into the militia to be called up if needed.
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You're already there.
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I don't know about this.
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Anyway, I don't care.
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That is most of what that episode is.
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I just... What a shit day.
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You get the... It's on fucking CNN, the communist news network.
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By the way, everybody's going to fight now.
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I'm sorry.
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Excuse me?
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Yeah.
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Tomorrow you're all going to show up at the war.
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Everyone under 45, get a gun.
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Goodbye.
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A bill starts out the 26th on a bit of a down note.
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Well, ladies and gentlemen, everything that I've been warning you about is coming true,
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and I hate it.
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No.
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I mean it.
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I hate it.
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It had been my intent, my dream, my purpose in doing all that I have done, in subjecting
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my family to all the suffering that they've been subjected to, and spending all the money
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that we spend upon this instead of upon ourselves, to try to prevent any of this from ever happening
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by waking enough people, so that by sheer weight of numbers of educated, awake, intelligent,
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smart people could prevent all of this.
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I have this overwhelming sense that somehow I failed.
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You should.
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I really don't know what to do about that, except to continue in some manner to try to
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help bring this to some eventual resolution by hook or crook.
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It's interesting, because we just recently saw Alex getting into this mode as the coronavirus,
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as the COVID-19 stuff, started to become more outside of his narratives, I guess, more real
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than his narratives.
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A lot of talk of, we've lost this, the globalists have won, that kind of thing.
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You're seeing the exact kind of similar response to Bill after realizing, yeah, Timothy McVeigh
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is going to be proven to be guilty of this.
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That one's me.
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Oh, boy.
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Yeah, it's so interesting to see after a crisis point, after a really big thing that is maybe
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beyond your abilities to spin or to make all right, you realize, I've failed, I've failed.
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These guys.
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It's strange, because it's kind of their way of taking responsibility for it by absolutely
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not taking any responsibility for what happened, and instead taking responsibility for something
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that is 100% fictional.
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I am so sorry I have failed you.
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We lost the fake battle.
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Yeah, I have failed you.
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We should have all woken up by now.
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It's their way of being like, ooh, I caused that bombing, fuck.
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You know what?
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That's a generous reading.
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Yeah, it is.
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Sorry, I should have assumed they're all psychopaths.
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I would like to believe that it's the way of allowing that grief or whatever to process,
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but I'm not convinced it is.
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No, I'm fair with that.
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So one of the things that I've come to realize as I listen to more and more of Bill's show
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is that his information gathering process is almost entirely just messages that he gets
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from listeners.
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It's just letters.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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And so this is one that's like, you don't need to report everything.
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You don't need to report everything.
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From our station chief on the scene in Oklahoma City, did I dream that I heard this?
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Did someone else say it?
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Please find someone else who listens to National Public Radio's all-things-considered evening
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show today, and make sure that I am mistaken about this.
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I hope I am wrong.
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I thought I heard a professor from George Washington University, when being interviewed
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about the explosion of hate, say that we would have to choose between keeping and expressing
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our freedom of speech, and having freedom from terrorism.
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This is such a great manifestation of how bad this operation is.
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Like Bill fancies himself to be the head of an intelligence operation of the Second Continental
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Army of the Republic, and as such, he has the Citizens Agency of Joint Intelligence,
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or CAGI, which serves as his data gathering team.
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That's just his listeners who have paid him dues, sending him emails that he calls intelligence
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reports.
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And here you can see the quality of the work that's being done by his station chief, who
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has emailed Bill to complain about something she thinks she heard on NPR.
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Something she thinks she heard on NPR.
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Dan, did I dream that Obama was president again?
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Could somebody please confirm that?
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I would like at least one letter confirming that on this American life, they were like,
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by the way, Obama's still president.
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So Bill's Oklahoma station chief, and his source for a lot of his bombing reporting,
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is a woman named Michelle Moore.
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She had no training in journalism or intelligence gathering, being a ballet instructor by trade.
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Moore liked Bill Cooper, so she paid her dues and signed an oath of allegiance to the Second
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Continental Army of the Republic, and was named a quote, second lieutenant of the intelligence
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service under Bill.
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Plie, you sheeple!
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On her commission papers, the general who is above Bill is quote, listed as George Washington.
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You kind of get the sense that Bill was running the entire Second Continental Army of the
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Republic and pretending there was a chain of command.
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Basically, Moore cosplayed.
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It was the ghost of George Washington.
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Moore would go on to write a 640 page book called Oklahoma City Day One that Bill thought
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was going to be his masterpiece.
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It was going to definitively prove all these conspiracies based on thorough documentation
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of media lies on the day of the blast.
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Bill insisted on expensive binding for the first edition, which he charged $60 for.
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He sent for an initial printing of 500 copies, and he couldn't even sell that.
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In Pale Horse Rider, one of Bill's friends says he quote, still has several untouched
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boxes of the limited and signed first edition piled up in Cooper's old storage unit.
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That sounds like every comedian's t-shirts.
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Uh huh.
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Anyway, Michelle Moore is Bill's station chief in Oklahoma, who is where he's getting a lot
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of this information from, and quote, in recognition of her tireless work, Cooper promoted her
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from lieutenant to major.
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Oh, well, that's really nice.
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Hard to imagine how he got George Washington to sign off on that promotion.
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It's a battlefield promotion, Dan.
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Also, if you're going by officer rankings, this is a pretty big jump.
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Second lieutenant is 01, whereas major is 04.
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So this promotion is skipping first lieutenant and captain.
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Man, she is going, she went from four to six figures.
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I'll tell you that right now.
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My guess is that they were able to pull this off because the rankings are meaningless.
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And also, I should tell you, Jordan, that I've just decided to make you a colonel for
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all the hard work you've done on this podcast.
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A colonel.
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Congratulations.
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That's it.
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A colonel?
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Colonel's above major.
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Nonsense.
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Total nonsense.
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I don't know.
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If you're a four star general and I'm a colonel, this is real trouble right here.
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This is a definite balance of empower.
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Yes.
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I agree.
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Imbalance of power.
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How did I mix that up?
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We're going to have to deal with that.
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All right.
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I believe, I don't know, I think it was on our last episode that covered, yeah, covered
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the Oklahoma City bombing coverage.
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Some of these dispatches that Bill got about updates on the bomb seemed to just be, I met
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a nice person.
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100%.
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Like your mom writing you about her vacation.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%.
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And we get a little personal in this and it's like, so weird.
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So weird.
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So you can imagine my surprise, shock, and utter disbelief to hear the dreadful things
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coming from my dad's mouth since the federal building bombing.
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In a short period of seven days, all of the years of his life have been erased.
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And he is somebody else now that I never knew before and do not want to know at all.
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He sounded to me like a clone of the mainstream media news broadcasters, and the words he
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was saying were treasonous.
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He has been brainwashed and mind-controlled by one week's worth of television coverage.
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Unbelievable.
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I did my best to explain to him what the militia really was, according to law, what purpose
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it served, what principles most militias stand for, that a few foolish men do not make all
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those who love this country evil and dangerous.
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He wouldn't hear a word of it.
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He said he'd rather be killed in his home by some invading enemy than to be rescued
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from the invader by a militia member.
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Now, that's quite a bit of brainwashing, ladies and gentlemen.
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That is really something.
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He'd rather be killed in his home by some invading enemy than to be rescued from the
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invader by a militia member.
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That's over the edge.
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I don't care about your station chief's relationship with her dad.
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Is this news?
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What is going on here?
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What is happening?
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He's denying the bombing and trying to carry water for Timothy McVeigh and also spending
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time reading a friendly... between compatriots.
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It's a personal interest story, dude.
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Holy shit.
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You gotta personalize the news.
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People really gotta empathize with this woman being mad that her dad is listening.
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Sure.
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Yeah.
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I guess.
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I was listening to this and I resented it, honestly.
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I found it, first of all, to be distasteful, because I don't care.
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And then second, because conceivably, Bill Cooper's supposed to be this guy who can see
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through all the conspiracies and he knows everything, did a 43-fucking-hour series on
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Mystery Babylon.
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100%.
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Your time is valuable, man, according to you.
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This is not the best use of your time.
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Chris Wallace goes on to show, my dad said some really mean stuff about Fox News.
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And listen, I don't ever want to speak to that asshole again.
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If you're starting out this episode talking about how you fear you've lost, maybe it's
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because you're reading emails like this instead of doing work.
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Maybe.
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I don't know.
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That's a really good point.
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How could we have lost?
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Yeah.
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How?
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Hey, maybe you could have figured out what the seismograph readings meant if you weren't
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spending your time dicking around talking about your station chief's dad, how he doesn't
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like malicious.
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Who cares?
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That's a good point.
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That's a very good point, dad.
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But there's an undercurrent that's also really ugly about this, and that is that there is
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a feeling of alienation that's coming from this station chief and her dad.
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Oh, yeah.
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No, this is cult leadership.
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You're seeing a family break, I mean, who knows how accurately she's portraying things.
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I have no idea, but taken at face value, you're seeing someone feel alienated from their own
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parent where they're saying treasonous things because they believe the communist news network.
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You need to cut off ties with all family, their suppressive persons, and only believe
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Bill Cooper.
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When I was thinking, and this is the station chief talking again, when I was thinking last
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Saturday night that my life had changed, I guess I did not realize the full extent of
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it.
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My dad is now the enemy.
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That's so fucked up.
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The station chief didn't know that Bill Cooper had met Timothy McVeigh.
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Bill Cooper could have been just like, hey, yo, don't leave your dad.
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Between you and me, look, I can't do this on the show for obvious reasons, just like
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I couldn't touch his butt, can't do it on the show, but yeah, don't get rid of your
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dad's totally right.
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I allegedly met Timothy McVeigh, let's be clear, because I still don't know what I believe.
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I could believe certainly that there was a random chance meeting between them and I could
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believe Bill made it up because he's a fabulous and a liar, so I don't know.
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I agree.
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I agree.
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Liars tend to always right-wing lie.
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That is a fallacy, though, just because someone's a liar, assuming they're always lying is a
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dangerous game.
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That's why I said tend to always lie.
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Don't worry about that.
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That's a confusing frame.
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Don't worry about that.
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So that bummed me out in the middle of this time frame, just taking a weird route through
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this personal email that doesn't belong on the show at all.
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Check this out.
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I made my station chief hater dad.
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That's kind of what he's doing.
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But it's framed through the lens of like, they're so evil, they've brainwashed her dad.
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That's just too...
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Yeah.
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Yuck.
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Yep.
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It can get close to home.
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I'm sure all of you have had terrible experiences with your family members believing not Bill
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Cooper.
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Yeah.
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It's a tragedy.
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So there's the other thing.
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Bill touched on this back on the episode from the 24th, and that has to do with the axle
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that was discharged from the Ryder truck.
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And the notion...
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Was it an honorable discharge?
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It was.
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And the notion that people were vaporized by the explosion.
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So he gets more to talk about that here.
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Spoke today with Sean at Oklahoma Cremation Service in Oklahoma City.
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He went through the cremation process with me in some detail.
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Now they're telling us that some people were literally vaporized.
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Listen to this, ladies and gentlemen, if these people were vaporized, then I can guarantee
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you they never found any trace of any truck.
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So they'd better choose which it is that happened.
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So you begin to be able to tell, like he's reading a message from the station chief.
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Yeah.
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Lieutenant.
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Soon to be major.
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Right.
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So you start to be able to tell, like, oh, this is him reading an email.
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That's what's going on here.
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So his station chief went to go talk to this guy who works at the crematorium.
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Right.
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Now, what they're doing is that they're taking information that they got from the crematorium
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person and applying it to news reports of people being vaporized.
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And then they're saying, like, well, if one happened, then the other can't.
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And I don't think that that's fair, because the issue comes down to force.
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Depending on where the bomb was in the truck, it's possible that the axle could have been
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sent flying with the complete outward force from the explosion.
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Simultaneously, someone standing near the truck might have had the force of the blast
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hit them and drive them, let's say, straight into a wall, which could lead to their body
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being essentially vaporized.
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What Bild is doing here is creating a false contradiction.
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He's implying that one thing is true and therefore another thing cannot be true, when in reality
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both can be.
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It feels intuitively correct that an axle shouldn't have survived, but according to
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physics it totally could.
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What Bild is doing here is also mixing up what vaporized means in different contexts.
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Yeah, I was gonna say.
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He goes on to give a long diatribe about the temperatures at which things like calcium
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vaporize, which he's trying to use to prove that any part of the Ryder truck would have
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been vaporized as well if a human body was vaporized.
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This isn't what people mean when they say that a body was vaporized, generally speaking.
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There's a definition that scientists would use to describe the chemical processes, and
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then there's the sort of vernacular.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:45.239)
The third definition in Merriam-Webster is, quote, to destroy by or as if by converting
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to vapor.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:52.319)
This sentence is, you know, that they used to demonstrate it in a sentence is, quote,
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a tank vaporized by a shell.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:58.479)
Obviously, the shell tank didn't become all vapor.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:01.560)
It's just a term that people use to describe a particular type of destructive process.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:05.720)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:06.720)
When in this context it's just hyperbole, and it's a sci-fi term for it.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:12.520)
Because when you say vaporized, if you mean it in a destructive way, the way that these
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guys are talking about it, they're talking about there should be nothing left.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:20.840)
It should be literally vapor, which is only sci-fi.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:24.199)
No, it's not.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:25.720)
It's real.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:26.720)
It's real, but in this context, it's not like there's zero evidence of...
Unknown Speaker (01:16:31.359)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:32.359)
I mean, there's, you know, like a nuclear explosion could...
Unknown Speaker (01:16:34.159)
Well, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:35.159)
Like radiation.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:36.159)
Of course.
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You could get there.
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A volcanic eruption.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:39.159)
You can leave all that.
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Yeah.
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I get it.
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From the stories that I was able to find, both about the Oklahoma City bombing and also
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the World Trade Center, typically the ways in which vaporized was being used generally
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had to do with, you know, people who died in ways that you couldn't get identifiable
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remains.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:00.079)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:01.079)
So, you know, if someone's body is like exploded to a point where it's not recognizable, it
Unknown Speaker (01:17:07.239)
seems like there are instances where that's just called body was vaporized.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:10.800)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:11.800)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:12.800)
When, like it's not a technical term, and I think that what Bill is doing is seeing
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that word being used in some media coverage and then implying or pretending that what
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they're actually saying is that everything was so hot that the body became vapor.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:28.720)
Exactly.
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And I'm not convinced that that is the truth.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:31.159)
I'm not convinced that that's what those news stories were saying.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:34.359)
Well, I mean, I would assume that the crematorium, because it takes a ridiculous amount of heat
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to cremate somebody.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:42.079)
That's why they went there, to talk to that guy in order to get the evidence that it would
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melt the axle before a human body.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:48.960)
That's the game that's being played.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:49.960)
But I mean, you could look up how much heat it takes to vaporize an axle.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:55.159)
You could look up all of these physical situations.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:57.840)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:58.840)
Like, you could just look at it.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:00.079)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:01.079)
The internet exists.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:02.079)
That's true.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:03.079)
Or not in 95.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:04.079)
Books exist still, though.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:05.079)
They still exist.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:06.079)
So does Kaji.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:07.079)
That's true.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:08.079)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:09.079)
They're probably more reliable than...
Unknown Speaker (01:18:10.079)
Just fucking tell one of your listeners to go look for it and call it a day.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:13.079)
Once again, you can find so many people who've dedicated their entire life to studying the
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physics of just this type of situation.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:21.399)
It's true.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:22.399)
But you should really probably trust your station chief, who hates her dad now.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:26.199)
And instead of talking to one of those people who could actually tell you those things,
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go talk to an unrelated field, someone at a crematorium.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:34.800)
Totally.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:35.800)
So one thing that I haven't really pulled out from each episode, but does deserve mention,
Unknown Speaker (01:18:41.399)
is that Bill is still selling his gold.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:44.680)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:45.680)
Ladies and gentlemen, the hour of the time is brought to you by Swiss America Trading.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:48.680)
If you're interested in getting your hands on some real money before the proverbial buffalo
Unknown Speaker (01:18:54.000)
chip hits the fan that I'm telling you is not far off, then you better call our sponsor
Unknown Speaker (01:18:59.800)
Swiss America Trading and talk to them about what real money really is.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:03.800)
So he's announcing it as an ad.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:09.279)
It's not as offensive as Alex, but it's still worth mentioning.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:13.720)
There is a trend of the shit's about to hit the fan, you got to get real money.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:17.199)
It's still a little bit fear-based sales, but whatever.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:19.760)
It's openly manipulative, but so is all advertising really, isn't it?
Unknown Speaker (01:19:24.720)
Somewhat.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:25.720)
So Bill has a big philosophy, and that is whoever fires the first shot loses.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:29.279)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:30.279)
We've heard Alex say this exact same thing.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:31.880)
It's pretty common, and it also is nonsensical and internally inconsistent.
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And remember, I've always told you, I've warned you, I have admonished you, whoever fires
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the first shot wins.
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Did you hear what I said?
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That's what the socialists believe.
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And that's why they blew up in the building in Oklahoma City, because I'm telling you
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right now, it was the government intelligence community that did it.
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There isn't any doubt about it.
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So Bill believes that whoever fires the first shot loses, but these socialists, they believe
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the New World Order.
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Of course, of course, of course.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:16.920)
They believe that whoever fires the first shot wins because they get to blame it on
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their enemies or whatever.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:21.680)
Why not?
Unknown Speaker (01:20:22.680)
So Bill has said that the New World Order did the Oklahoma City bombing in that clip,
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which I have to assume would count as the first shot.
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So what is he telling his audience?
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They've lost.
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Is he telling them that they should just wait for another shot?
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I don't know.
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I don't know.
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This kind of shit is so stupid.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:40.539)
Why would you be insisting to the audience that whoever fires the first shot loses, if
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the first shot's been fired?
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They lose, according to your principles.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:49.920)
It's not some abstract future thing now, it's the past.
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According to Bill Cooper's canon, the first shot's been fired.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:56.119)
Fuck, this is probably the thousandth shot, according to him.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:59.520)
So now, any offensive action taken against the government isn't offensive, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:21:03.279)
No, it's self-defense.
Unknown Speaker (01:21:04.899)
It would be by definition, it would have to be a response to this first shot, and therefore
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completely justified.
Unknown Speaker (01:21:11.399)
That's the implication of what Bill's saying, but he would never say that, because then
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the game's over.
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This is one of the things that I see as just proof that these people are full of shit.
Unknown Speaker (01:21:20.939)
If you think that you've proven that the New World Order blew up a federal building and
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killed tons of people, and that isn't enough for you to say that it's time to take up arms
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against them, where is that point?
Unknown Speaker (01:21:31.119)
There is no point, because you know that when you cross that line, you're not making any
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more money, you're probably going to jail.
Unknown Speaker (01:21:37.159)
So you stay right on the edge of that point.
Unknown Speaker (01:21:40.720)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (01:21:41.720)
Yeah, I would say at this point, same-day shipping is more important than liberty for
Unknown Speaker (01:21:47.100)
most people, so I don't think there is a first shot anymore.
Unknown Speaker (01:21:50.279)
I don't think it can happen.
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Especially when you're like, alright, this is a New World Order conspiracy that goes
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back to Babylon, and it's a thousand-year-old conspiracy, what the fuck are you talking
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about a first shot for?
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I would like to know.
Unknown Speaker (01:22:05.279)
I would like to know.
Unknown Speaker (01:22:06.279)
When does the first shot start?
Unknown Speaker (01:22:08.159)
Well, that goes from cold to hot war, Dan, and then it eventually goes back to cold war,
Unknown Speaker (01:22:13.079)
and then it'll go back to hot war, and whoever fires the first shot in each cold war loses
Unknown Speaker (01:22:18.159)
the hot war, which is why they come back during the other cold war to win the next hot war.
Unknown Speaker (01:22:23.479)
I just get a headache.
Unknown Speaker (01:22:25.039)
Yeah, it's bad.
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I'm sick of it.
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It's a bad idea.
Unknown Speaker (01:22:28.039)
Yeah.
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So, in this next clip, Bill gives what I would describe as a rare apology.
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Sorry to that lady's death.
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I said last night they're not patriots, and I should not have said that because apparently
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they were in the military, or at least one of them was, or two, I guess, and they did
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serve honorably, and at least one, to my knowledge, is supposed to have served in Desert Storm.
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So, under the concept that you are innocent until proven guilty, I apologize for making
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that statement last night, I should not have made it.
Unknown Speaker (01:23:10.199)
That's what Bill decides is worth giving an apology about.
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He said that Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were not patriots, but he since learned that
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they were in the military, so he's sorry he said that they weren't patriots.
Unknown Speaker (01:23:21.119)
That's amazing.
Unknown Speaker (01:23:22.119)
None of the other stuff in his career requires retraction, but this does.
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The first chapter of his book was based on a fraudulent document, the silent weapons
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for quiet wars, but he's not apologizing for that.
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Behold, a pale horse contained a full reprinting of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
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It did not.
Unknown Speaker (01:23:38.359)
It did.
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Oh, God.
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But it had a note attached to it that said that you should replace the word Jew with
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Illuminati.
Unknown Speaker (01:23:43.439)
Oh, no.
Unknown Speaker (01:23:44.439)
Oh, no.
Unknown Speaker (01:23:47.760)
But that's-
Unknown Speaker (01:23:48.760)
Oh, no.
Unknown Speaker (01:23:49.760)
That's not apology worthy.
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Oh, no.
Unknown Speaker (01:23:51.760)
He dared suggest that two men who'd been arrested for blowing up a federal building aren't patriotic
Unknown Speaker (01:23:54.960)
when they were, because they were in the service, and that's something that he's got to make
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right.
Unknown Speaker (01:24:00.359)
Hey, you got to.
Unknown Speaker (01:24:01.359)
That's wild.
Unknown Speaker (01:24:02.359)
Do not, do not absolutely denigrate our military men, even though technically, in my worldview,
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they are controlled by the New World Order and they will be used to destroy us.
Unknown Speaker (01:24:13.220)
Something like that.
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Don't fuck with the military.
Unknown Speaker (01:24:16.199)
So, we get back to this other theme here of the socialists are Nazis, Nazis are socialists,
Unknown Speaker (01:24:23.079)
that kind of thing.
Unknown Speaker (01:24:24.079)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:24:25.079)
We must not allow to happen here what happened in Nazi Germany.
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It will not be us sitting in a defense docket in another Nuremberg trial.
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It will be the real Nazis, the real Nazis.
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Nazis are socialists.
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Don't ever forget that.
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We believe in Republican constitutional government and liberty.
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The Constitution says no state shall cinder in payment of debt anything other than gold
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or silver coin.
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The United States Code says that money is gold and silver coin, and that it is expressed
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in a measurement called a dollar.
Unknown Speaker (01:25:24.479)
Call Swiss America Trading now 1-800-289-2646, folks, and get some real money.
Unknown Speaker (01:25:31.960)
And you better do it soon.
Unknown Speaker (01:25:34.840)
All indications are that time is running out.
Unknown Speaker (01:25:37.800)
That's an ad pivot.
Unknown Speaker (01:25:38.800)
That's a lazy ad pivot.
Unknown Speaker (01:25:40.680)
That was.
Unknown Speaker (01:25:41.680)
That was.
Unknown Speaker (01:25:42.680)
Yeah, that's Jonesian.
Unknown Speaker (01:25:44.680)
His heart wasn't really in it, though.
Unknown Speaker (01:25:46.319)
No, but he did it.
Unknown Speaker (01:25:47.319)
Hey, look, these are the real Nazis, and hey, Nazi, Nazi, buy my gold.
Unknown Speaker (01:25:53.520)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:25:54.520)
I mean, it's so Alex.
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Just a different personality, different broadcasting style, doing the same thing as Alex.
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It's wild.
Unknown Speaker (01:26:04.199)
I hate...
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I don't understand, well, I understand it completely, but they always say Nazis are
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socialists, socialism being an economic system.
Unknown Speaker (01:26:13.600)
They never say Nazis are fascists, fascists being the government system that they don't
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like.
Unknown Speaker (01:26:19.560)
So, it seems to me that they are more angry about an economic system than they are about
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a government system.
Unknown Speaker (01:26:27.039)
I think that's probably true.
Unknown Speaker (01:26:28.039)
I agree.
Unknown Speaker (01:26:29.039)
It's so much of the libertarian leaning kind of Alex Jonesy, Bill Cooper-y stuff.
Unknown Speaker (01:26:37.079)
It's so much like property rights are above everything.
Unknown Speaker (01:26:41.560)
Yeah, that's a way to get to fascism real fast.
Unknown Speaker (01:26:45.079)
And it's something that would be at loggerheads with any ideas of heading more towards socialist
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systems.
Unknown Speaker (01:26:54.239)
Totally.
Unknown Speaker (01:26:55.239)
So, there's something else that Bill is a little bit upset about.
Unknown Speaker (01:26:57.720)
He's got a little bee in his bonnet, and that is that Bill Clinton went on 60 Minutes, and
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they had an interview, and Bill has decided that he has condemned Timothy McVeigh to death.
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On 60 Minutes, Steve Croft.
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It seems almost certain now that this is homegrown terrorism, that the enemy is in fact within.
Unknown Speaker (01:27:22.359)
How do we respond to that?
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Doing nothing.
Unknown Speaker (01:27:26.359)
Well, we have to arrest the people who did it.
Unknown Speaker (01:27:31.279)
We have to put them on trial.
Unknown Speaker (01:27:33.239)
We have to convict them and punish them.
Unknown Speaker (01:27:34.960)
I certainly believe that they should be executed.
Unknown Speaker (01:27:37.960)
I hate to tell you this, Slick Willy, we all despise that bombing.
Unknown Speaker (01:27:46.079)
Do you?
Unknown Speaker (01:27:47.079)
But we don't know if anybody's guilty yet, and you've already convicted them, and you're
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executing them.
Unknown Speaker (01:27:52.960)
That's not what he said.
Unknown Speaker (01:27:53.960)
That is not American.
Unknown Speaker (01:27:54.960)
He literally said, not that.
Unknown Speaker (01:27:58.279)
And it is not for you to decide, it is for a judge and jury to make that decision.
Unknown Speaker (01:28:02.439)
I don't think he decided that.
Unknown Speaker (01:28:03.800)
I don't know, I mean, maybe a president, if asked that, should just be like, I defer-
Unknown Speaker (01:28:09.239)
Let the justice system do its work.
Unknown Speaker (01:28:12.039)
But also, if a president is asked after a federal building is blown up, hey, what should
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happen to the people who are found guilty of this?
Unknown Speaker (01:28:20.159)
I think the death penalty is appropriate.
Unknown Speaker (01:28:22.880)
I don't think that that is equivalent of him being like, he's called for his death, this
Unknown Speaker (01:28:27.560)
person's death.
Unknown Speaker (01:28:28.560)
No, no.
Unknown Speaker (01:28:29.560)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (01:28:30.560)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (01:28:31.560)
I guess if you want to really be a stickler about it, whatever, Bill, have that one.
Unknown Speaker (01:28:35.119)
It's dumb, but you can have it.
Unknown Speaker (01:28:37.720)
So Bill Cooper also gets mad that Bill Clinton said some things about Waco in this clip from
Unknown Speaker (01:28:47.159)
60 Minutes.
Unknown Speaker (01:28:48.600)
And Bill goes on a diatribe about Waco that I'm not going to address, but I am going to
Unknown Speaker (01:28:54.039)
point out that Bill is very mad, and he is very mad.
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I cannot believe that any serious patriotic American-
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This is the quote from Bill Clinton.
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Can believe that the conduct of those people at Waco justifies the kind of outrageous behavior
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we've seen here in Oklahoma City are the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that we're hearing
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all across the country today, it's wrong.
Unknown Speaker (01:29:24.199)
What is he talking about?
Unknown Speaker (01:29:28.399)
No patriotic American in this whole country has ever said that those people at Waco justified
Unknown Speaker (01:29:34.079)
anything that happened in Oklahoma City.
Unknown Speaker (01:29:36.039)
He is lying.
Unknown Speaker (01:29:37.039)
That doesn't sound true.
Unknown Speaker (01:29:38.520)
There's a long pause.
Unknown Speaker (01:29:40.720)
And the only way that you can really get around a comment like that is just how do you define
Unknown Speaker (01:29:44.319)
patriotic American?
Unknown Speaker (01:29:46.479)
If you're going to say that-
Unknown Speaker (01:29:47.720)
No true Scotsman.
Unknown Speaker (01:29:48.720)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:29:49.720)
If you're going to say that saying that Waco justifies the Oklahoma City bombing precludes
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you from being a patriotic American, then this is just axiomatic.
Unknown Speaker (01:29:58.880)
If that's one of the things that's disqualifying, then yes, no patriotic American would believe
Unknown Speaker (01:30:03.359)
that.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:04.359)
But I mean, Timothy McVeigh definitely thought that.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:08.039)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:09.039)
And I would be shocked if there wasn't at least one episode of Bill Cooper's own show
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where he said, this justifies some sort of response that is commensurate with what the
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government did.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:20.039)
I can't-
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And so on and so forth.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:22.039)
I can't say so.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:23.039)
I'm not saying-
Unknown Speaker (01:30:24.039)
I would be reticent to make a prediction of that, but I wouldn't be too surprised.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:28.039)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:29.039)
But there is also a ton... I mean, it's ludicrous to say that that wasn't a position that some
Unknown Speaker (01:30:35.500)
people held.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:36.500)
No.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:37.500)
Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:38.500)
Maybe it wasn't all militias.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:39.500)
Probably wasn't.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:40.500)
I'm sure that there were a lot of people who were horrified by the events that transpired
Unknown Speaker (01:30:44.640)
and were condemning.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:47.279)
I'm positive of that.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:49.060)
But there is a contingent of people who would have those beliefs.
Unknown Speaker (01:30:54.880)
And the only real way that this works is Bill's definition games.
Unknown Speaker (01:31:00.479)
And I think that that's important for his preserving some sense of self.
Unknown Speaker (01:31:05.739)
So Bill has a big plan.
Unknown Speaker (01:31:07.859)
He's going to get to the bottom of both Oklahoma City and Waco.
Unknown Speaker (01:31:11.319)
Is he going to buy a TV station along the way?
Unknown Speaker (01:31:13.159)
It is as harebrained.
Unknown Speaker (01:31:14.800)
I'm going to ask that every American gather evidence and proof and begin an investigation
Unknown Speaker (01:31:22.039)
to find the culprits, the perpetrators, and help bring to justice the murderers of Oklahoma
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City and the murderers of Waco, Texas.
Unknown Speaker (01:31:38.880)
These were both despicable acts, and we are going to find out who did it, and we are going
Unknown Speaker (01:31:47.119)
to raise a fund that is going to ensure that somebody comes out and talks.
Unknown Speaker (01:31:54.439)
And I hope you all participate.
Unknown Speaker (01:31:56.359)
This is going to come back on you, Bill Clinton, and Janet Reno, and FBI, and BATF, and whoever
Unknown Speaker (01:32:05.520)
and however did the bombing in Oklahoma City.
Unknown Speaker (01:32:12.279)
I mean, it looks like you don't need to do that investigation part.
Unknown Speaker (01:32:15.239)
You've already decided.
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No, and I think he's done.
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I think his investigation has been completed already.
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Great.
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Yeah, we're going to raise up a whole bunch of money in order to lure some very competent
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grifter to tell a great story that confirms my theories.
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Larry Nichols' ears perked up.
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Yeah, exactly.
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What's that?
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I can hear money.
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I got to go to work.
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Someone's offering him money.
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These guys like the soft rice.
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Yeah.
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Great plan.
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Yeah.
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So we've got one last clip here, and it's Bill giving a theory about how we're going
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to get rid of this menace that's known as Bill Clinton.
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Right.
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And, spoiler alert, didn't work.
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I cannot believe that this nation has sunk so low, or that we have someone of the despicable
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character such as Bill Clinton in our White House.
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It does not speak well for America.
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And we're going to have to change that in the next election, and the way to do it is
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to join the Constitution Party.
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You'll find a form to do that in the next issue of Veritas, which, by the way, you should
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all be subscribing to, because it's the only place that you're ever going to read the truth.
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So at this point, Bill Cooper had gone all in on the Constitution Party, also known as
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the U.S. Taxpayers Party.
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They were never a viable party, and at no point have they ever fielded a candidate that
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has received more than 0.2% of the vote for president.
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Who got 0.2?
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I don't remember.
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But they've also never won an electoral vote.
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Well, of course not.
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In 1996, Howard Phillips was running his second of three campaigns for president on the ticket,
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and he managed to come in sixth.
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This was an improvement over the 1992 election, where he came in seventh.
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I'm not sure that they've even ever successfully fielded a candidate for Congress.
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In 2018, I can find one seat that the party won, and it was in North Carolina, the Green
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County Commissioner election for District 3.
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Anyway.
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Get that guy out of here.
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What are you doing?
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He needs to be impeached.
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If you're a member of that party, you gotta go.
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I don't know anything about the Green County Commission.
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Maybe he's a good commissioner.
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Who knows?
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Anyway, Bill's on board with this party, because that's what people like him are supposed to
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do.
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They're supposed to be on a team that never wins, because then they never have to deal
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with what comes after winning, and you always have a ready excuse for why you lost.
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This is the one thing that Alex forgot to include in his impression of Bill Cooper,
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and it's bad news.
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You never want to win.
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Nope.
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You never want to win.
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That's why you stay with Ron Paul, stay with the Constitution Party, stay with those sorts
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of principled also-rans.
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That's the way to go.
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If you need a little bit more juice, go straight Libertarian Party, although that's never really
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going to work out for you, because then you gotta be in favor of Gary Johnson.
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You gotta do a whole thing.
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Alex couldn't do that.
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No, no, no, no.
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So I mean, I found this a little bit disappointing as a stretch of time, because I really don't
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think that there was much coverage of the bombing.
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There was talk of, you sort of decided it's fake, or what have you.
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There's a lot of yelling about Waco, and then beyond that, it's sort of largely continuations
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of the threads that had already started previously that have, I guess, proven that it was a false
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flag or something, which I'm utterly unconvinced by.
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Oh, are you?
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Yes.
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But I mean, hey, look.
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We now have within our field of awareness that Bill may have met Timothy McVeigh.
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That's so wild.
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That's just so wild.
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And that Bill is name dropping Larry Nichols, and that means that he might do it again.
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I don't think Larry's ever been on his show, because I would have seen his name scrolling
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through, and that would have been the first episode we did.
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No, no.
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We're on that one.
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Yeah, for sure.
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All day.
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All day.
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I don't think he's ever been on the show, but I wouldn't be surprised if, especially
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as Whitewater is continuing to go along, and anti-Clinton sentiment gets higher, and as
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Linda Thompson, who did the Clinton body count, comes on Bill's show as a guest.
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He might be quoted in reference.
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Right.
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I could see Larry Nichols becoming more of a prominent figure in the Cooperverse, and
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it might necessitate a phone call.
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I don't think he's going to take your call anymore.
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I think he will.
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I might.
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He is not busy.
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That is true.
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So, I would like to apologize sincerely for the delay, this from the part one episode,
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and we'll continue.
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I'll try to do my best to...
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I'm pretty sure everyone blames you for that.
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I think they do.
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Yeah, I'm pretty sure.
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Yeah, certainly don't blame you.
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I meant there were other circumstances going on that may have distracted you, and not your
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personal decision making, but...
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That's nice, Colonel.
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That's nice.
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But yeah, we'll keep on this thread, because I do know that the conspiracy evolves.
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It just didn't in these couple days.
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There really isn't that much growth, and so we'll see what the section chief brings up
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next time.
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But until then, Jordan, we have a website.
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We do have a website.
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It's knowledgefight.com.
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That's right.
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We're also on Twitter.
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We are on Twitter.
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It's at knowledgefight.com.
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Now go to bed, Jordan.
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Yep.
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We're also on Facebook.
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Indeed we are.
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And then if you could, please find a local charity in your area, a bail fund or the like,
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to help with people doing God's work.
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That's right.
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We'll be back.
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But until then, I'm Neo.
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I'm Leo.
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I'm DZX Clark.
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I am the Chicago station chief of the Citizens Agency of Journalistic Integrity for the Second
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Continental Army of the Republic.
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Andy in Kansas.
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You're on the air.
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Thanks for holding.
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Hello, Alex.
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I'm a first time caller.
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I'm a huge fan.
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I love your work.
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I love you.
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