Transcript/984: Formulaic Objections Part 16
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I don't wanna hate black people. I renounce Jesus Christ.
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Thank you so much.
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Eh, thank you very much.
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So, uh, obviously this, uh, was a shooting, mass shooting that happened-
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Sure.
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... in 2023.
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Um, probably... uh, I, I, it was, it's a big deal, but maybe less, uh, regularly present in our minds-
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Yeah.
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... uh, in the scale of mass shootings. Uh, a
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lot of the depositions that we've done have been about, uh, the Sandy Hook, uh, case.
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Of course.
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And so this, this one, I'll give you a little bit of a refresher on what happened.
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Uh, on May 6th, 2023, there was a mass shooting at a mall in Allen, Texas, leading to the deaths of eight people
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plus the shooter. In the time immediately after the shooting, ame- uh, information
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started to come out about the identity of the shooter, namely that he was someone who had an online
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footprint full of Nazi tattoos and racist
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right-wing writing. There were indications that he had reposted content from Tim Pool and Libs of TikTok
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and endorsed Nick Fuentes and VDARE. In short, he s- he swam in the same information space where Alex
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and his ilk make their money. This posed an optics problem for these people, since carrying out a racially
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motivated mass shooting is kind of the logical
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conclusion of a lot of their content. It's not
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good for business when someone carries out the domestic terrorism you're trying to incite, so when this
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happens, Alex and the people in his orbit will always call it a false flag. So that's what they did.
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As pictures, uh, started to circulate of the shooter's online history and Nazi
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tattoos, it became important to undermine that narrative so it didn't take hold.
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Nazis aren't supposed to be a real thing or
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problem, according to Nazi apologists, so a guy with, like, SS tattoos killing eight
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people in a racially motivated attack, that's not good for business. That can't exist.
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The angle that many of these right-wing media figures decided to take was to
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google the alleged shooter's name,
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at which point they found another person with the
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same name who didn't have Nazi tattoos. The story started to become that this second
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person they'd found was the real shooter
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and that the guy with Nazi tattoos was just another
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guy and that the media was trying to say that he was the shooter
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so they could make the story about a Nazi to make Trump people
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look bad. It was important to invalidate the story that this guy was a Nazi
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extremist because, uh, as the risk of making normal people associate Nazi extremist murderers
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with their content model. And once the larger population starts taking that seriously, the money train
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might end up slowing down or stopping.
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And that leads us to the next day on Owen's show, where he
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showed the pictures of the wrong person, identifying them as the Allen mall shooter
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in order to deflect from stories that the actual shooter was a Nazi dude who liked Tim Pool. And
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so that's, that's where, uh, Owen, uh, gets on air on that Sunday, uh, and misidentifies-
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Yeah.
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... this person.
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It's pretty i- you know, honestly, in terms of, like, what happened, it's a pretty clear-cut, uh, thing of-
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Yeah.
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... like, you misidentified this person.
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Yeah.
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Um, so yeah. He has a difficult position to, to begin from.
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Right. Right. It's almost like
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sometimes it feels like things should just happen-
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Mm-hmm.
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... in respon- you know? Like, oh, you did the thing, and then the mousetrap lands, instead of, like, oh,
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now we gotta figure stuff out. You know what I mean?
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Well, and this w- this one also seems like, uh, a situation where Owen would stand very, uh, li- uh, e-
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stands to lose very little by just being an adult and being like,
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"Look, there's some, uh, made some mistake here."
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Yeah.
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You know? I mean, I think he doesn't, because he understands how much it implicates
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how everything he does is a mistake.
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Right.
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Uh, but, you know, that pride doesn't seem all that important to maintain here.
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Yeah, it does feel like sometimes you can just say, "I chunked it," and everybody will scratch it and move on.
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Mm-hmm.
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You know? Like, even if, even if they're,
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even if you're worried that people are going to, like, hold your feet to the fire, I think they're not. Uh,
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and t- at least that's the experience we've had so far. So just be like, "Eh, I chunked it. Moving on."
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Mm-hmm.
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You know?
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Mm-hmm.
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It's, it's, it seems easier than they're making it.
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Ye- I think so.
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Yeah.
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So we start and, uh, yeah. I feel like I've, I've begun to
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notice that most of these depositions, they begin with a, uh,
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question of, "What did you do to prepare for this?"
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Oh, God.
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Which I always find interesting, because everybody minimizes it.
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Hm.
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They don't wanna be like, "I have read everything."
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Right. Right, right, right.
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(laughs) Because then they have to take responsibility for knowing all of that stuff.
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Eeh, that's no good.
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So Owen basically did nothing.
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Mr. Shroyer, when were you first told you were giving a deposition in this case?
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(sighs)
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Boy, I don't know the exact date.
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Um,
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do you recall when it would have been?
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Unfortunately, she's, uh, not able to help you out.
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No, I don't know the exact date.
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Okay. Uh, w- um, I'm guessing sometime in the past couple weeks, then?
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I would say maybe a month-
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Okay.
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... I've known.
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Um, who have you spoken to about this deposition?
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My attorney
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(sighs) and I believe that's it.
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Okay.
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Did you review any documents before the deposition?
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Yes.
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Can you describe what documents you reviewed?
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An affidavit that I signed for this case and then, uh, two videos that are relevant to this case.
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Okay.
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I would take it those would be, um,
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the May 7th and May 8th episodes of your show?
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It is the episode pertaining
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to the original
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documents you sent me and then the retraction video.
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Okay.
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So right off the bat, you kind of get a combative tone from Owen.
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He doesn't want to be there, and I think that as we go through this, the reason is super clear.
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He has run out of excuses for his actions, and he kind of knows that Mark doesn't really have any
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super meaningful questions for him. Like, on some level, they've done this
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deposition already the last time when Bill big-dogged him with the gummy worms.
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Yep.
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And, uh, c- 'cause it,
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you know, it, it's, it's impossible to enter this
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without recognizing that it's like, ah, this is a... you made the same error here.
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Yeah.
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You made the same mistake.
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Yep.
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We're doing a, we're doing another one of these.
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Run it back.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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You've already had this conversation with the same lawyers.
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Yeah. It is, it is interesting, because
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when you listen to it now, as compared to the last one
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that we listened to, I feel like Owen has learned some of the language
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better-
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Mm-hmm.
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... of the, of the, like, the, the deposition language kind of thing.
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But not in a way of understanding the language. More like in a way of, if I make the same sounds back at them,
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then they'll think that I'm... You know what I mean?
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Mm-hmm.
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You know? It's not like he d- he doesn't understand the meaning of the word pertains, or, you k-
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that kind of thing, but he knows that this is the type of word you use here.
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I think he maybe has a bit more confidence, too, 'cause I, I think maybe he's, uh,
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on the other side of going to the, the prison.
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Yeah. That's a good point.
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He's done time, so he's, uh-
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(laughs) He's...
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... he's a new man.
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I did my nickel.
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Right.
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(laughs)
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So the question comes up of, uh, hey, man. Are you a, are you a journalist?
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Right.
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As far as your background, um, you are a journalist who provides news coverage?
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Uh, I am a broadcaster. Yes.
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Okay. Well, I mean, what I'm referring to is, did you see in your legal
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papers in this case where it was claimed you were a journalist who provides news coverage?
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I don't, I don't recall what
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identities I was given in any legal papers.
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You record an internet video show called The War Room.
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I'm the host of the show. Yes.
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Okay. Um, you have one boss, and that's Alex Jones?
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Um, you could say that.
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But Alex Jones doesn't personally oversee your show or preapprove what you say, right?
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Not necessarily.
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Okay.
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And was, on the day that we're talking about in this case,
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the video that you reviewed for May 7th, 2023,
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did Alex Jones personally oversee or tell you what to say?
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No.
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Okay.
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You're allowed to say what you want on your show?
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Yes.
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You have people working under you on your show that you can give instructions to?
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Yes.
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So, uh, just in the opening minutes of this thing, we have Owen refusing to accept the
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risk of calling himself a journalist, even though his documents identify him as one and-
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Yeah.
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... saying, uh, that everything he puts on his show is
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under his control. Alex doesn't tell him what to say. He directs his own ship, and so
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he is a man who is-... presumably responsible for the content that he puts out.
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Yeah. Yeah, it is, uh, it's always fun. It's always fun, like,
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moving into this arena and listening to them try and not say
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what they, what everybody already knows, obviously.
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Mm-hmm.
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Like, it just, just deny, "I don't know if the sun is
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yellow."
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"Yeah, I don't, I don't know if I'd say Alex is my boss."
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"Yeah, I mean, you know, you could say that. Anybody could say anything, really."
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Yeah.
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And you're like, "Just, let's go. Come on, man."
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"Just own something."
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This could take five minutes if you'd just be like, "Ah, we'll do it."
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Yeah. So, the general strategy that Owen is going to deploy, uh,
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to, uh, justify his actions and, and everything, is
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that, uh, they showed a picture of the shooter.
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But it was just on a piece of paper that was on the desk.
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Right.
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And he has no control over that.
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Sure.
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It's just there, right?
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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All r- ok- okay.
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It's an, it's an interesting-
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Anybody could have put it there.
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Right?
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Yeah, I mean it's like a planted piece of evidence. (laughs)
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Yeah, there, it, he gets to work and there's all these papers on the desk, and that's not his fault.
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Who coulda- it coulda been anybody.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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And so, he, I think he thinks that this is gonna be a good defense.
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(laughs)
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But, uh, he's immediately countered with the implications of what he said.
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Yeah, obviously.
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Part of your show involves reviewing news articles and social media posts
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that have been printed out on paper.
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Correct?
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Is that a question?
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It is.
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(laughs)
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Um,
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yeah, that's part of the show.
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Part of your show involves displaying materials printed out from the internet
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that you have never seen
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and then commenting on them live.
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Um,
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that's happened before. That's not an integral part of the show.
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That's what happened in this episode, correct?
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Uh, not exactly, but, um, generally speaking, um, that's kind of what happened.
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From what I understand of your affidavit,
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you reviewed materials on this show relating to my client that you had never seen before.
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Uh, reviewed what materials?
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Well, for instance, the photo of my client that we're hearing about
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today. You had never seen that before going on air.
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No.
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You had never reviewed any of those materials?
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No, it was just sitting on the desk.
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And you knew that there would be material sitting on the desk?
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Uh, yeah, there are materials sitting on the desk.
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And you may not have seen them or checked them before?
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No.
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So, in terms of
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whether you might end up defaming someone on your
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show, it's pretty much a Russian roulette situation as far as you're concerned?
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No.
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(laughs)
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Well, I don't understand. If you have materials on your desk that you haven't
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checked, how, how would you know what's in them?
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Uh, they're not my materials, I'm not referencing those materials, I never touched those materials.
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(laughs)
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I haven't told anybody to put those materials on the air, on video.
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Well, you know they're gonna be there, right?
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No, I don't know what's gonna be there.
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No, you know exactly, you, you know that stuff is gonna be on your desk but you don't know what it is.
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Right?
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(laughs)
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Is that right?
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Uh, yeah, I don't go through the thousands of papers on the desk
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when I sit down for the Sunday show. I don't have time to.
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So this is a tough spot for Owen to be in this early.
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(laughs)
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He obviously can't answer in either direction here without taking on really shitty conclusions.
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(laughs)
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If he claims that he reviews all the material that's on the
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desk, which is the fodder for the show he does, then
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he would need to own that he bears some responsibility for not
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fact-checking the picture that was reported on identifying the wrong shooter.
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In this scenario, he's able to maintain the facade that he's doing a real
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show that's not just ranting about social media posts he's skimmed, but he also has to accept that
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he made a mistake here. Conversely, if he claims that he doesn't look at all the prop paper on the
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desk and has no idea what any of it is,
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then maybe he feels like he can get away with reporting on this incorrect image, but it comes at the
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expense of admitting that his show is really just ranting about social media posts
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that he barely knows what they are. Take yourself seriously and admit you fucked
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up, or take no responsibility by essentially admitting
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that your whole game is a fraud? It's quite a pickle that he's accidentally
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landed himself in, and I don't think
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when he was saying, "I don't know this material, I don't, it's just in front of me."
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God, I love that. (laughs)
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"I, I, I can't have any responsibility for it," I don't think he was expecting Mark to reply with,
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"So it's Russian roulette if you-"
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Yeah.
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"... defame somebody based on what is just randomly in front of you."
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so it could just be, it could just be crystals today.
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Shit.
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"Oh, we put, they put, they put a bunch of rocks on my desk today."
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Ah.
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"I suppose I'm gonna talk about rocks."
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Fuck, that kind of does follow from the premises that we've established. Shit. Aw, damn it.
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(laughs) Okay, so, so there's, they put a bunch of Greek pots on and I have to
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try and interpret what the pictures mean in a story format. Uh, it's a weird day today, I guess, guys.
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Hm. But that's because we do all the research and we study-
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Right. (laughs)
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... and we know this stuff backwards and forwards.
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All right.
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I love, I love the,
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"I never touched it."
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We touched it.
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Like, what, are we, are we in a drug sting? Is that what we're doing? (laughs)
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And, I mean, obviously
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there was no, like, securing of the scene or anything.
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Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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But if you dusted those papers for fingerprints,
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this would be shown to be a lie.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:39.095)
(laughs) Yeah, obvi- obviously. (laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:21:39.194)
You touched those things. Yeah.
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So, um, uh, this, uh, turns into a situation where Mark is asking,
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um, "So when you have stuff that you don't know if it's true or not-
Unknown Speaker (00:21:50.974)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:51.214)
... in front of you, uh,
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that's not an ideal source, right?"
Unknown Speaker (00:21:55.355)
Yeah, that's the trouble.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:56.234)
That's not good.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:56.954)
No.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:56.994)
Yeah, I don't go through the thousands of papers on the desk
Unknown Speaker (00:22:00.934)
when I sit down for the Sunday show. I don't have time to.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:03.375)
Right, so when you have a show and part of the basis of your show
Unknown Speaker (00:22:07.815)
is to review live materials printed out from the internet that you've never seen, that ain't a great idea.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:14.474)
You agree with that?
Unknown Speaker (00:22:15.174)
Objection form.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:19.434)
It's not exactly an ideal situation, but, um, that's the situation I'm in on Sundays. I don't have time
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to clear the desk. I have basically two minutes to sit down
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and put a mic on. And that's all I can do on Sundays, so I had nothing to do with those documents.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:31.835)
What instructions do you give about the printed-out materials that are gonna be used on your show?
Unknown Speaker (00:22:36.194)
Are you talking about for this show in question?
Unknown Speaker (00:22:39.535)
No, just generally.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:41.315)
Well, it's kind of important that there's a distinction being made.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:44.974)
On that show, I literally just sit down at the desk.
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It's the exact same desk where somebody's on air before me. I don't have any
Unknown Speaker (00:22:51.194)
time to clear the desk, I don't have any time to
Unknown Speaker (00:22:53.515)
review what's on the desk, I don't have any time to
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put new stuff on the desk. I just have to sit down and go on air.
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So on a normal, on a normal circumstance,
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I have control over the desk, I have control of what's on the desk. In this circumstance, I have none.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:06.454)
So on my show, a normal show-
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(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:23:09.255)
... I can prepare fake papers.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:11.154)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:11.234)
But at this, I, I just, I have papers on the desk and there's nothing you can do about it-
Unknown Speaker (00:23:15.355)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:23:15.414)
... on Sundays. I have no time.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:17.095)
I love, I love the dynamic that we have always with all of these depositions, which is, you ask a question
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and then they have some sort of response that's like, "Obviously I can't do that, idiot."
Unknown Speaker (00:23:31.194)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:31.515)
And then it's like, "No, you have to. That's your job."
Unknown Speaker (00:23:35.595)
Right, you're taking over this-
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(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:23:37.694)
... uh, shift.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:39.595)
You can't take paper off of the desk?
Unknown Speaker (00:23:42.214)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:23:42.494)
How long does that take?
Unknown Speaker (00:23:43.835)
You-
Unknown Speaker (00:23:44.174)
One swoop with your hand across the desk, but you don't have time for that?
Unknown Speaker (00:23:48.755)
I mean, what, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Are you saying that, like, other people do that? Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:53.474)
Are you saying that there should be a recycling bin underneath the desk that all this paper can be thrown in?
Unknown Speaker (00:23:58.555)
(laughs) There's just no way to remove things from the desk.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:01.315)
No.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:01.595)
We laminate it all.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:03.055)
Well, maybe this speaks to, like, a bureaucracy that's in place.
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(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:24:06.734)
That they need to go through three different offices and get signatures to take anything on or off the desk.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:12.535)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:12.795)
Maybe they're so opposed to government red tape because they have-
Unknown Speaker (00:24:16.115)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:16.535)
... this insane, Byzantine system they have to go through.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:20.194)
They just always have this element of, like, "Okay, I am not in a civil trial."
Unknown Speaker (00:24:27.590)
... deposition. I am in a movie courtroom,
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where, like, I can get off on a technicality. Where it's like, "Ah, there's some plausible deniability
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here. You can't guarantee that I put it on the desk."
Unknown Speaker (00:24:40.211)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:40.451)
Boom. I'm out.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:41.711)
Right. But it's also funny, because it's like, th- that's not even what's at issue here.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:45.570)
That's not what we're talking about, man.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:46.810)
And also, your explanation that it seems like it's supposed to be-
Unknown Speaker (00:24:50.432)
(coughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:24:50.471)
... such common sense, that like,
Unknown Speaker (00:24:52.271)
"I have no idea what papers are gonna be on the desk when I get..."
Unknown Speaker (00:24:56.211)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:24:56.211)
It opens up, like, uh, i- i- it's not a satisfying excuse.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:00.490)
No.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:00.490)
It's, it makes you sound insane.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:01.951)
Yeah, no. You realize that what you're doing is insane, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:25:05.750)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:05.810)
And they're like, "No. What? No, you're dumb."
Unknown Speaker (00:25:08.330)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:08.730)
Oh.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:09.290)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:09.511)
Woo.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:10.810)
So, I thought at this point, it might be good to actually hear some of the episode that got
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Owen in trouble, because it helps to put into context, uh,
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why he did the things that he did. Understood as it actually happened, Owen was part of a media
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ecosystem that was desperate to deny that the Allen shooter was a guy with Nazi tattoos
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who was motivated by the same ideology that underlies their
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worldview. One of the headlines, particularly on social media w- after the shooting, was that the guy
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had, uh, Nazi tattoos, and Owen felt self-conscious about this.
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The right-wing dipshit media reacted in lockstep with each other, desperately pushing other
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explanations for the shooting that didn't touch on the possibility that white supremacy is a real thing.
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Here was the rant that Owen was in the middle of
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when he misidentified the shooter, which we'll hear, uh, in this clip.
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But I guess that's
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the mentality now of a... the mentality now of a
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left-winger. I guess that's the mentality now of a liberal Democrat. If you don't
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like the statistic, then it must be racist. If you
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see something you don't like, it doesn't matter if it's real or not,
Unknown Speaker (00:26:14.490)
it's racist. And that's just how you discount it and hide from
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it. Like, you're afraid of a monster under the bed, or
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there's a monster in your closet, so you hide under the blankets.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:23.530)
"You can't see it. The monster can't touch me." Yeah, here's your actual interracial violent crime
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statistics. Here's your actual demographic crime statistics. "No, no,
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racist. Oh, I don't... I can't... Oh."
Unknown Speaker (00:26:41.790)
But then they're the ones
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that call a Hispanic
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man a white supremacist and a neo-Nazi.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:51.790)
His name was Mauricio Garcia, your neo-Nazi
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(laughs) white supremacist. But, but we know now,
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this is the
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leftist logic, we now know that
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it actually has nothing to do with skin color. It has everything to do with
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politics. So, don't you know, that's why Enrique Tarrio
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is a white supremacist, you know, the Black leader of the Proud Boys. He's a white supremacist. And so is
Unknown Speaker (00:27:20.851)
Supreme Corn- uh, Supreme Court Justice
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Clarence Thomas. He's a white supremacist too. Yes, of course he's a Black man and
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the first Black member of the Supreme Court, and that's why he's a white supremacist, don't you know?
Unknown Speaker (00:27:32.691)
Because his politics, his ideology, does not perfectly align with the left-wing cult.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:38.411)
So, as Owen is discussing the shooter, they go to an overhead shot of the papers on the desk, showing
Unknown Speaker (00:27:44.250)
a prominently displayed mugshot of the plaintiff in this lawsuit, who was not the shooter.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:49.310)
Owen's defense here seems to be that he can't
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control what papers are in front of him. And this is a random coincidence, but previously
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on this show, he could clearly be seen looking
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through the papers on the desk and weaving their content into his monologue.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:02.671)
In the context of the show that's being presented, these aren't just random papers. They're his sources.
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And the incorrect mugshot is placed directly where the overhead cam is, because
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Owen shuffled the papers around and put it there in order for the camera to pick it up.
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He can dodge responsibility in a lot of ways and try to maintain his pretend credibility, but there's just
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no way around it if you watch the video. He engaged with the papers on the desk, treating them as
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prepared news, even though they were just printed-off
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tweets. And he presented the mugshot by putting it in front of the overhead camera. In terms of his, uh, uh,
Unknown Speaker (00:28:34.711)
organization of what would be in view of the camera, Owen arguably was operating as a producer, putting the
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prop into the place it needed to be in order to be in the shot.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:45.050)
So, he's actually, uh, I think he's getting off easy-
Unknown Speaker (00:28:48.270)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:48.871)
... uh, based on what he's being accused of here.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:51.691)
Right, ri- ri- right.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:52.490)
Also, Thurgood Marshall was the first Black member of the Supreme
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Court who Clarence Thomas actually replaced, but I wouldn't
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expect someone like Owen, who has such a great grasp on all these issues, to, to know that.
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I was, I was like, "Oh, man. Don't remind me that, uh,
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one of the great crimes of this fucking universe is replacing
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Thurgood Marshall with Clarence Thomas."
Unknown Speaker (00:29:12.911)
Hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:13.330)
Like, truly a travesty of destruction-
Unknown Speaker (00:29:17.310)
Well, I mean-
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... to one of the greatest men that ever lived.
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... if you think, if you think that, you know, that's, that's a travesty, then, uh,
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good, the good news is that Owen has decided to just, uh, ignore it.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:25.330)
Ignore-
Unknown Speaker (00:29:25.330)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:25.351)
... Thurgood Marshall entirely.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:26.631)
Yeah, never happened.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:27.330)
Which is, hey, you know what? That's one way to do it.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:29.651)
So, um, Owen, uh, we get back to the, the deposition setting. And, uh,
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he, uh, is talking more about how he doesn't know anything about these papers that are in front of him.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:38.770)
Never seen them before in my life.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:39.810)
You certainly have control over the words coming out of your mouth while you're talking on air, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:29:43.391)
Do I?
Unknown Speaker (00:29:43.911)
Yeah. And those, in this case, I think what you're telling me is
Unknown Speaker (00:29:46.770)
none of that is pre-planned. You don't have a script.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:48.750)
No.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:49.290)
Okay. So, you know that you're gonna be encountering materials you've never
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seen before and reacting to them live, correct?
Unknown Speaker (00:29:55.131)
No.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:55.931)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:29:56.851)
Okay. Well, you know there's gonna be materials on the desk, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:29:59.891)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:00.250)
In this specific case, you knew you had never seen them before.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:02.711)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:04.171)
Right?
Unknown Speaker (00:30:04.810)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:05.530)
And then you knew you'd be reacting to them live, correct?
Unknown Speaker (00:30:08.250)
No. No.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:09.111)
Explain to me why that's not right.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:11.151)
Um, because I don't have to react to anything on the desk.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:14.351)
I'm not understanding what you're saying. Your, your
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show, from what I understand how it operates, is you
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have a stack of materials on your desk that are about the new stories of the day, correct?
Unknown Speaker (00:30:24.211)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:24.711)
And those are, that dictates kind of what you're gonna be
Unknown Speaker (00:30:27.671)
talking about on your show, are those news stories, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:30:29.510)
No.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:31.871)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:33.810)
Can you see the materials on your desk-
Unknown Speaker (00:30:35.490)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:30:35.510)
... while you're on the show?
Unknown Speaker (00:30:37.090)
Uh, yeah. There's, there's a bunch of stacks in front of me. You can see it on the video.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:39.931)
That's what I wanted to make sure.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:40.931)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:30:41.310)
Okay, yeah. We can see them. So, this is an interesting deflection that Owen is trying to make, because
Unknown Speaker (00:30:46.270)
on some level, I think he feels like he just pulled, like, a logic judo move.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:50.810)
Mark has, uh, established that Owen knows that there will be material on the desk that he's
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possibly never seen before, and has also established that Owen has control over what he says on the show.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:01.290)
The natural conclusion for this is that he has control
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over the response that he gives to random, unverified information, which is to say
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that he made a choice and it led to this defamatory content being broadcast.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:12.770)
Owen thinks he can get out of this corner by saying that he's under
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no obligation to respond to the random papers on his desk as a general rule.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:20.371)
He could ignore them entirely and, uh, not get into any trouble with Alex or the bosses.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:25.351)
W- what he's trying to do is retain some measure of dignity by
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creating the impression that some days his show is fully prepared by him e-
Unknown Speaker (00:31:32.550)
uh, before the show, and has nothing to do with the litter that Alex just left on the desk.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:37.351)
But the problem is, in this specific case that they're talking about, Owen did rely on those papers.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:43.671)
The idea that he has the freedom to ignore them only makes him more responsible for his actions.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:48.371)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:49.250)
This is the kinda thing you see when someone is, uh, sort of trained to argue.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:54.530)
He knows what it looks like and feels like to make a point, but he doesn't really
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know how to assess if the point that he's making is good. He just
Unknown Speaker (00:32:01.730)
knows that, uh, he's now said something that kinda feels like it covers the bases.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:06.351)
But more importantly, it puts the ball back in the other person's court.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:10.111)
Nine times outta 10 when Owen is arguing with random people on the street,
Unknown Speaker (00:32:13.391)
this level of explanation will fly. But in a deposition, you can see how flailing around he is.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:19.250)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:19.490)
Like, this is...... makes no sense.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:22.242)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:22.583)
Uh, it does not get to the heart of the matter in the conversation that we're actually having here.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:26.823)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:27.423)
Um, it just seems sad.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:29.603)
Yeah, it's just a fundamental misunderstanding of where they are and what is happening.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:34.163)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:34.383)
'Cause, uh, y- the, right now, it's feeling like an interrogation
Unknown Speaker (00:32:37.782)
kind of situation, where Owen feels like he is
Unknown Speaker (00:32:40.624)
being interrogated by the cops. Where he's like,
Unknown Speaker (00:32:42.863)
"Well, I know the cops lie. I know the cops don't
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have all the information, and they want me to incriminate myself,
Unknown Speaker (00:32:49.124)
and that's why we have the whole amendment thing." And it's like,
Unknown Speaker (00:32:51.803)
but in this scenario, they already know
Unknown Speaker (00:32:54.762)
the answers to the questions they are asking, because there is no other possible answer.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:59.884)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:00.564)
For you to then say a different answer just makes everybody spend their whole day here.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:05.103)
Well, and it's so weird, because, like, I don't think that anybody
Unknown Speaker (00:33:09.884)
would not accept an apology and a recognition of-
Unknown Speaker (00:33:12.982)
Totally.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:13.223)
... like, the, you did wrong here. Th- like, I, I feel like
Unknown Speaker (00:33:17.663)
this is the easiest bind for Owen to get out of, by just saying, "We fucked up, made a mistake." Uh,
Unknown Speaker (00:33:25.143)
you know what... I mean, and it, the fact that they have to go
Unknown Speaker (00:33:27.803)
through these, like, "I had nothing to do with the papers,"-
Unknown Speaker (00:33:29.962)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:30.163)
... and all this, is only because of the inability to admit wrongdoing.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:34.343)
Totally.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:34.982)
And, and that's what's weird about it.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:36.462)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:36.643)
That's, that's the part that's very surreal and turns it into an interrogation. It's Owen's refusal to
Unknown Speaker (00:33:42.563)
just accept a baseline of responsibility.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:46.202)
Yeah. Yeah, it is, it is funny
Unknown Speaker (00:33:49.682)
in a sense of Owen is more fine with consequences being going to jail than he is with just being like,
Unknown Speaker (00:33:57.722)
"Yeah, I fucked up."
Unknown Speaker (00:33:58.682)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:59.383)
Like that's the on-, that's the consequence.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:01.363)
Well, I think that the going to jail, uh, inflates and plays into his pride, ego, and character-
Unknown Speaker (00:34:07.383)
Totally.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:07.823)
... and saying, "Look, we've fucked up. We got the wrong picture, and, uh,
Unknown Speaker (00:34:11.302)
you know, we'll try and do better in the future," I think that works against his ego and pride and character.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:15.963)
Of course.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:16.782)
So, it's pretty much that simple.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:18.262)
Right. It's fascinating, just in a, in a sense of like how warped people's brains can truly become.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:24.443)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:25.103)
And also,
Unknown Speaker (00:34:26.182)
what's the point of jail? It's crazy. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:28.983)
So Owen, uh, Owen's like, "Hey man, I've never met those papers. I don't know them." Uh-
Unknown Speaker (00:34:33.722)
Yeah, I mean, I've never seen that guy before in my life.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:35.563)
We've never spoke.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:36.382)
Totally.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:37.123)
Can you see the materials on your desk while you're on the show?
Unknown Speaker (00:34:39.983)
Uh, yeah, there's, there's a bunch of stacks in front of me. You can see it on the video.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:43.182)
That's what I wanted to make sure. When, when we go to the InfoWars document camera, right,
Unknown Speaker (00:34:47.663)
that's above the desk, that's a view directly in front of you?
Unknown Speaker (00:34:52.483)
Those papers aren't on some other desk, that's the desk right in front of you?
Unknown Speaker (00:34:55.563)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:55.882)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:58.643)
Who... Well, first of all, do you know who, who you had select materials for that show?
Unknown Speaker (00:35:05.103)
Uh, nobody probably, but no, I don't, I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:08.543)
You don't know how they got to your desk?
Unknown Speaker (00:35:10.342)
Um, my guess is the show before
Unknown Speaker (00:35:13.422)
prints out all this stuff and puts it on the desk for the host before me.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:17.963)
That's how they got on the desk.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:19.762)
Who's the host before you?
Unknown Speaker (00:35:21.023)
Alex Jones.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:21.902)
Okay. So who, do you, you don't have any idea who printed out those materials for his show?
Unknown Speaker (00:35:26.182)
No, I'm not there.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:27.882)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:27.943)
I get there after he's, he's done.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:29.563)
So you, the materials that are there on your desk
Unknown Speaker (00:35:33.063)
are not even checked by any member of your staff for your shows?
Unknown Speaker (00:35:36.943)
No, I don't, I don't have a staff for that show. I just inherit the staff that's already there.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:40.483)
Gotcha.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:42.782)
So before going on air, you don't do anything yourself to ensure
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that any of the materials on your desk are accurate or appropriate for the show?
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Objection formed.
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I don't really
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reference them, I don't touch them, I don't pick them up. They're just there.
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So this seems like it would be a good dodge, but it relies on the person talking to Owen not
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knowing anything and having not prepared. If you watch the show that this
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suit is based on, prior to this point, Owen has literally
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been handling the papers on the desk, reorganizing them, looking
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through them for things to talk about, and directly reading tweets off them.
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Right.
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I think what he wants to say is that this show isn't just
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him randomly ripping, uh, riffing off paper that Alex left on the desk. And that's
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fine if he wants to say that to preserve his ego, but the problem is in this specific case in question, there's
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video of him using the papers on the desk for the basis of his show.
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In this instance, him trying to use this as a defense just looks silly, and makes it too
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obvious that the reason he's being defensive about this is because,
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if he doesn't, he'd kinda have to admit that there really isn't anything more behind his show.
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The illusion of the show is predicated on needing to pretend that they're taking this seriously.
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It would be a lot harder to sell the audience on the idea that you're fighting the literal devil
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if they knew that all you're really doing is a racist meme recap show.
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And I think that d- like, protecting that kayfabe is
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more important to Owen than not looking like a total idiot.
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It's so strange to me,
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because to me, like, even if you are gonna do this waste-of-everybody's-time
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and not just be like, "Eh, I fucked up," uh,
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then you pin it on Alex.
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Sure.
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He already owes a billion do-... What does... Oh, it's a drop in the bucket. Who ca-... Oh, it was Alex' fault.
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Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:26.583)
Like, yeah. I don't u- I just don't understand why you don't just... Because it's ego.
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Wow.
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It's just his e- and it's Alex's ego. Alex is like, "Hey, don't pin this on me." Why not?
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Alex might barbecue him.
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Exactly.
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That's the issue.
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What, who- (laughs)
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Alex might murder him.
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What is happening? Why can't we be smart for five seconds today, guys?
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I dunno, but the, the, um,
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I think that the people that Owen is probably
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used to talking to, he could say, "I never touched those papers," and they would be like,
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"Well, I guess if he said he never touched the papers, maybe he didn't."
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Yeah.
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But like, if you're dealing with lawyers who are suing you over this, they watched your episode.
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Yeah.
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They know you're lying.
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Yeah.
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You know you're lying.
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Yeah.
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Uh,
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what's the point?
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It's not the cops picking you up off of a regular-ass sweep just being like, "Hey, do you know who did this?"
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Hmm.
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It's not that.
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Yeah.
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They know you.
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And I think at some point, Owen has to recognize, based on how little confrontation is coming-
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Yeah.
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... that this is kind of
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not an information-gathering exercise and more a, uh, uh,
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like,
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"Aren't your answers embarrassing"-
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Yeah.
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... kind of, like, (laughs) exercise.
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You know we've been here before.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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It, it feels... There's a, there's an element of scoldiness to it.
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Yeah.
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(laughs) I think that-
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Absolutely. Of course.
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So, um, it, the, uh, um, uh, policy that Kit Daniels put out-
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Yeah.
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... about how they need to, whenever they're gonna put out news that accuses someone of a crime-
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Yeah.
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... they need to have backup.
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Okay.
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Double-check that stuff.
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Good call, Kit.
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So that comes up-
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Sure.
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... and, uh, we get Owen's thoughts on it.
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Okay.
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All right, Mr. Shroyer, I handed you what I've been, uh, what has been marked as Exhibit 1.
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Um, this is an email of Kit Daniels we were talking about. He's a coworker of yours.
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Was.
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Was a coworker of yours. Um,
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was he a coworker of yours last summer, in 2023?
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I don't think I've seen Kit Daniels in maybe over a year.
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(laughs)
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Oh, God.
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The subject of this email is, "New editorial policy for all
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reporters, journalists, and writers." Do you see that at the top?
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Mm-hmm.
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Okay.
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Um, it was sent on June 7th, 2018. You see that?
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Mm-hmm.
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At that time, you were hosting a show as a journalist?
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I was a host. I, I don't-
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(laughs)
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... know about the term journalist applying here. Oh my God.
Unknown Speaker (00:39:48.222)
Well, is there a re-... When it re- says it replies
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to reporters, journalists, and writers, do you think this policy applies to you?
Unknown Speaker (00:39:54.063)
Uh, I don't know. This coulda been meant for the writers.
Unknown Speaker (00:39:58.322)
I, I do not know.
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(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:40:00.003)
Well, it was sent to you, wasn't it?
Unknown Speaker (00:40:02.222)
Kit Daniels was never my managing editor.
Unknown Speaker (00:40:04.902)
Well, I'm asking who it was sent to when sent to-
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It was sent to InfoWars staff.
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And that goes to you, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:40:11.463)
I think so.
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(laughs)
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The policy says, "Any news story published or promoted by InfoWars that deals with the possibility of a
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crime being committed, or criminal accusations in general,
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must be checked by multiple editors before publication, whether it be a video report or a written article.
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This also includes headlines as well as the content of the report.
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This policy will help ensure that reports are free of inaccurate and misleading
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statements that invite legal com- problems for the company."
Unknown Speaker (00:40:40.882)
Um, you agree that this policy existed before the show that we're here to talk about today?
Unknown Speaker (00:40:45.262)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:40:45.902)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:40:46.802)
Um,
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has anyone ever said to you
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since 2018,
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uh, "Mr. Shroyer, this policy is no longer in effect"?
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(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:40:55.902)
"Um, the criminal allegations that, uh, you make on your show don't need to be checked by multiple editors?"
Unknown Speaker (00:41:01.483)
No.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:01.902)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:03.842)
Do you remember what happened to cause the creation of this policy?
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(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:41:07.262)
No.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:08.523)
Oh, you don't?
Unknown Speaker (00:41:09.063)
Do you remember that shortly before this email, your coworker, Kit Daniels, published an
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innocent person's photo as the Parkland shooter?
Unknown Speaker (00:41:15.902)
No.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:17.382)
Okay. Are you familiar with the lawsuit that resulted from those events?
Unknown Speaker (00:41:22.503)
Not, not off the top of my head.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:24.782)
You, have you heard the name Marcel Fontaine?
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Sounds familiar.
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Okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:29.003)
See, this is a bad situation for Owen to be in, because,
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uh, obviously he remembers this stuff.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:35.003)
Yeah.
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And he's answering no, uh, because if he answers yes, then he's going to be asked, "What happened there?"
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Yeah.
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And Owen doesn't wanna have to say it himself.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:45.902)
No.
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So he thinks he's avoiding something by being like, "I
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think I... No, I don't remember. I vaguely... I don't know, rings a bell," or whatever.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:55.402)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:55.963)
Except, like, he, and it, this is, this is something that might work in a social situation.
Unknown Speaker (00:42:02.483)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:42:03.003)
But when you're in a deposition-
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(laughs) This is because, uh, this policy got put in place 'cause you guys, uh, misidentified a shooter.
Unknown Speaker (00:42:14.454)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (00:42:14.775)
Uh, and it got you in trouble, it got you sued.
Unknown Speaker (00:42:16.755)
Like this situation right here that we are in?
Unknown Speaker (00:42:18.994)
Yeah, or that other time you did that.
Unknown Speaker (00:42:20.914)
Oh, yeah?
Unknown Speaker (00:42:21.474)
Do you remember in May 2022,
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a year before this episode we're talking about, um, that you published the photo of an innocent woman,
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saying that she was the Uvalde Elementary School shooter?
Unknown Speaker (00:42:34.375)
No.
Unknown Speaker (00:42:35.034)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:42:37.255)
I wanna see if we can refresh your memory on that. Um...
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There we go.
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Alexis, let's mark that as Exhibit 2.
Unknown Speaker (00:42:59.215)
Okay, I think... Yes, go ahead and give that to Mr. Shroyer.
Unknown Speaker (00:43:04.896)
Mr. Shroyer, I've handed you what's been marked as Exhibit 2. Um, this is a, a CNN article that was
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published on, uh, KTZ- KTVZ Oregon. Um,
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the title of this article is False Right Conspiracists Claim the Uvalde Shooter Was a Trans Woman,
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and I'd like to direct your attention to the highlighted portion on page two. Do you see that?
Unknown Speaker (00:43:24.994)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:43:26.474)
Okay, I'm gonna read that portion really quick, and you can read along with me.
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It says, "Jones told the caller he had a photo of Ramos wearing a skirt.
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Later in the episode he shared a tweet from Andy Ngo
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that asked people to stop claiming that the images of people in
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skirts being circulated are Ramos, because none of those images had been confirmed to be the shooter."
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Jones' co-host, Owen Shroyer, said, "I just want to be clear.
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The images we've been talking about are not the ones that we've been sharing.
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We've been sharing the images that are on his Instagram account that is claimed to be his."
Unknown Speaker (00:43:59.434)
The Instagram account that Shroyer mentioned was a spoof account that has since been taken down.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:04.215)
Does this refresh your memory, that in 2022, you spread the false image of a- from a shooter?
Unknown Speaker (00:44:11.155)
Vaguely, but I don't know. I mean, claiming I spread a false image. This is just
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a quote. It doesn't show any images, it doesn't give any context, so I'm not, I'm not admitting to that.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:21.215)
Right, I'm- that's what I'm asking, though, is does it refresh your memory that you did spread the
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photo of this innocent woman as the Uvalde shooter?
Unknown Speaker (00:44:27.135)
Objection formed.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:28.835)
Uh, I remember the general, um, I remember the general incident.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:33.494)
Did you learn anything from that?
Unknown Speaker (00:44:35.114)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:44:36.815)
Uh,
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no.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:38.875)
Nope, certainly not.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:40.195)
Uh, objection, meme. (laughs) .
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(laughs)
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So we've, uh,
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I don't know, illustrated a pattern of-
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(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:44:49.894)
... you personally and you, Infowars, as a company-
Unknown Speaker (00:44:52.755)
No.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:52.775)
... doing this pretty regularly, uh, to the detriment of peoples' lives and, uh...
Unknown Speaker (00:44:57.454)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:57.914)
Did you learn anything? Nope.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:00.155)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:00.474)
Definitely not.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:01.434)
Yeah, you know, there's something about that where it reminds me of, uh,
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Sara, uh, Sara Jewett, uh, who was a, a writer from Maine-
Unknown Speaker (00:45:12.255)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:12.594)
... uh, in the early 20th, or late 19th, early 20th century. Uh, and she's, she's writing about school
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at the time, which is a teenage girl and, like, five
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young boys, and it just, it makes me think, like,
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I know that school punishment is bad,
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but man, if he had been hit like they were in the time, maybe we wouldn't be here.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:36.635)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:36.894)
You know what I'm sayin'? Like, I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:38.454)
I don't know if corporal punishment is the, the answer.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:40.815)
I don't think it's the answer. I'm just saying, we wouldn't be here.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:43.914)
I, I think-
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(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:45:45.114)
I think that there's something very, uh, illuminating and illustrative about this, like,
Unknown Speaker (00:45:52.215)
all right, here is this exact parallel situation to what we are here to talk about that you did previously.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:59.775)
Yep.
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And, like, the way that Owen is unable to engage, but also,
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uh, completely unable to deny the reality of, like, he can't just say, "I didn't do any of that."
Unknown Speaker (00:46:11.454)
No.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:11.795)
He's, he has to be like, "I vaguely remember and I will not confess to this."
Unknown Speaker (00:46:16.155)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:16.335)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:46:17.335)
One of, one of our oldest-
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Such a coward.
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... one of our oldest parenting idioms is the idea of, if you let the
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kid touch the fire, he will learn not to touch the fire.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:28.135)
You are somehow incapable of learning not to touch the fire.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:31.775)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:32.215)
How is this possible, sir?
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I
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think because they have not felt the consequences of the fire.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:37.815)
I mean, there's really no other way to put it, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:46:40.215)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:40.675)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:41.235)
So, uh, Owen, at this point, has been confronted with this past record of behaving in this exact way.
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He's tried to excuse his behavior as, like, "I don't, I've never met paper before."
Unknown Speaker (00:46:51.934)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:52.235)
Um, and, and I think he now realizes he needs to switch his approach.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:56.855)
Let's talk about your coverage of the, um, Allen, Texas mass shooting, uh, in the summer of 2023.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:02.894)
Um,
Unknown Speaker (00:47:03.934)
I saw that it was claimed in your legal papers
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that you claim that you published
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a widely reported and disseminated mugshot.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:11.994)
Is that accurate?
Unknown Speaker (00:47:12.775)
Uh, that is the image that you are referring to.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:16.994)
Other than you, where was it reported prior to your show on May 7th?
Unknown Speaker (00:47:22.054)
Well, it is obviously on
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the Twitter account that is sitting on the desk, that I've noticed is not mentioned in the lawsuit.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:30.715)
Uh, and then obviously all the other defendants who are here probably disseminated the same image and,
Unknown Speaker (00:47:37.735)
I'm sure, plenty of other people.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:39.835)
You know if any of them did it before, after you?
Unknown Speaker (00:47:42.235)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:47:42.635)
Uh, no.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:43.735)
Okay, so
Unknown Speaker (00:47:45.494)
you've read the lawsuit, I take it, 'cause you just commented on it, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:47:48.235)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:48.614)
Okay. So you would know from that lawsuit that none of your co-defendants published it before you, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:47:53.855)
Uh, I, I don't, I don't, no.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:55.695)
Okay. And then we have this, um, Twitter account.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:59.074)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:59.594)
Right? KAN KOA THE GREAT.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:01.135)
So, this excuse doesn't make a lot of sense based on Owen's previous excuse. He shouldn't need to claim that
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this was a widely reported mugshot if he didn't engage with the random paper that's on his desk. He didn't
Unknown Speaker (00:48:13.235)
use the mugshot, so how, like, who cares how widely reported it was?
Unknown Speaker (00:48:17.255)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:17.954)
Owen is acting like this because the legal strategy is basically to just be
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really defensive and see if anything sticks.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:23.994)
The "I have no idea where the paper comes from" defense
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clearly isn't enough, and so now he's just trying to justify his actions by saying, "All the cool
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kids were reporting on this, so it wasn't just me."
Unknown Speaker (00:48:34.074)
This is a great moment that illustrates a dynamic of InfoWars that really cuts through their façade.
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They're supposed to be the tip of the
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spear, the only ones who truly see through the media manipulation. They're the independent
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thinkers and their analysis is better than everyone else because they're inspired by God. This
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is their kayfabe persona, but when they do something
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wrong and wanna get outta trouble, all of a sudden they're just part of the
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crowd. All these other places were spreading this fake information, so why are we
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the ones who are getting in trouble for it? And this really demonstrates an underlying
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immaturity that these folks operate with. There's not much difference, honestly, between Owen and a high
Unknown Speaker (00:49:07.514)
school bully, other than that Owen wears a suit.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:10.034)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:10.175)
Like, that's-
Unknown Speaker (00:49:11.034)
100%.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:11.835)
This is all childish refusal to accept responsibility.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:15.554)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:16.074)
And, uh, it's s- it's, it's really interesting to see.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:20.375)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:20.414)
Because I think Owen embodies it so strongly.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:23.335)
I mean, it is, it might as well just be like,
Unknown Speaker (00:49:26.715)
"Oh, it's fun to play cops and robbers, but I don't wanna be in trouble for robbing stuff."
Unknown Speaker (00:49:33.835)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:34.034)
"That's not cool."
Unknown Speaker (00:49:35.614)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:35.755)
"It feels good to pretend to be one of those pioneering fight, fight journalists, uh-"
Unknown Speaker (00:49:42.394)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:42.394)
"... but I'm a tiny little loser on the inside." Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:45.014)
Yeah, it's fun to yell at people and be the cuck destroyer.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:47.775)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:48.135)
Um, and it's not so fun to-
Unknown Speaker (00:49:51.414)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:51.614)
... have to, you know, uh, be talked about, about how you, uh, misidentify mass shooters.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:56.335)
Yeah, yeah. No, it is, it is a lot in these, in this arena, there is a consistent
Unknown Speaker (00:50:01.715)
underlying feeling of, like, hey man, why are you making me feel bad?
Unknown Speaker (00:50:04.655)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:05.235)
Right?
Unknown Speaker (00:50:05.554)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:06.074)
Like, it's, don't make me feel bad. Don't pierce the illusion. I like the illusion.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:09.594)
Yeah, don't make me feel bad.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:11.094)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:11.414)
Alex left those papers on the desk.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:13.074)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:13.474)
Don't care. Don't make me feel bad. Other people said it too. We don't care.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:17.394)
We all know I'm full of shit.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:19.155)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:19.454)
But we don't have to say it all the time.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:22.235)
Yeah, there is a very strong defensiveness-
Unknown Speaker (00:50:25.554)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:25.594)
... that just runs through this.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:26.855)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:26.934)
And so the idea of using anonymous tweets as a source came up in that last clip.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:32.034)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:32.394)
And that's explored a little more.... look for other people's shows. (laughs)
Unknown Speaker (00:58:45.423)
You know, and it is- it is the same thing as with an interrogation. Because they're turning
Unknown Speaker (00:58:50.364)
it into an interrogation, they only wind up revealing information that you don't have to reveal.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:56.282)
Yeah. An- and it- it's such a, it's such a, uh, crapshoot for me in terms of believing if that's true.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:02.364)
Totally.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:02.864)
It seems like a very strange thing to be able to make up on the spot.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:06.563)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:07.063)
But it also seems such a bizarre social work environment.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:11.003)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:11.282)
If that is something that Alex, like, you know, "Don't take the papers off the desk-"
Unknown Speaker (00:59:14.603)
Totally.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:14.802)
"... or I'll just be mad."
Unknown Speaker (00:59:15.583)
Yeah. (exhales) It's a testament to how things are
Unknown Speaker (00:59:19.742)
that it's like, I would at least put that at 60/40 true.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:23.202)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:23.603)
You know?
Unknown Speaker (00:59:24.202)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:24.583)
Whether or not it is true, don't know, but we are living in a space where that is
Unknown Speaker (00:59:28.784)
more likely to be true than not true.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:30.943)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:31.583)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:31.842)
And it also seems like if you're somebody who respects themself and works in media, uh, you should quit.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:37.483)
If- if that's the work environment you're in, that's an unacceptable work environment.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:41.402)
"I can't move papers from my desk," is not something I would say at
Unknown Speaker (00:59:47.163)
any job without going, "And now I'm going to leave."
Unknown Speaker (00:59:50.222)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:50.342)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:50.563)
This is indicative of a much larger problem.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:52.722)
(laughs) Yeah, there's no way that this gets better than, "You can't move papers!"
Unknown Speaker (00:59:57.402)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:57.702)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:58.103)
It's a symptom.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:59.043)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:59.702)
So, uh, this next clip, I think, is, uh, fantastic, and, uh, it's Owen, uh, trying to lash out a little bit.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:06.563)
Good.
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And then
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running straight into a wall.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:09.422)
Ooh.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:09.802)
I wanna make sure that we're clear
Unknown Speaker (01:00:12.543)
that
Unknown Speaker (01:00:13.663)
you did nothing
Unknown Speaker (01:00:15.422)
to ensure that photographs used during your broadcast were accurate.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:19.362)
Objection formed.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:23.862)
I had nothing to do
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with that photo on the desk or on the screen.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:29.682)
During a breaking news event,
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you should only discuss to your audience,
Unknown Speaker (01:00:35.862)
and publish to your audience, the image of an alleged mass murderer
Unknown Speaker (01:00:39.983)
if the image was confirmed using a primary source. Would you agree with that?
Unknown Speaker (01:00:44.023)
I had nothing to do with the publishing of that image.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:46.483)
That's not what I asked you, Mr. Shore.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:48.202)
Rep-
Unknown Speaker (01:00:50.242)
You want me to ask it again?
Unknown Speaker (01:00:51.063)
Yeah, go ahead.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:51.583)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:53.202)
During a breaking news event, you should only discuss or publish an image of a mass alleged shooter
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if the image was confirmed using a primary source. Do you agree with that?
Unknown Speaker (01:01:03.302)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:05.623)
I wanna talk about your use of anonymous materials, how you approached that, okay?
Unknown Speaker (01:01:11.103)
Um, and certainly you recall the time on your show
Unknown Speaker (01:01:15.222)
when you used an anonymous blog
Unknown Speaker (01:01:18.242)
about a Sandy Hook parent named Neil Husson. You remember that?
Unknown Speaker (01:01:23.603)
It's funny, 'cause, uh, these anonymous accounts that you always
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bring up as the basis for my lawsuits never end up in a lawsuit with you.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:30.842)
That is interesting, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:01:31.882)
Yeah, it is.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:32.322)
Yeah, it is interesting how the journalist-
Unknown Speaker (01:01:33.302)
Very interesting.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:33.802)
... the professional commercial journalist-
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It is.
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... has a duty that's different than a random person on Twitter. Would you agree with that?
Unknown Speaker (01:01:39.463)
Uh, well, I don't know. Th- that's all about interpretation, I suppose.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:43.503)
No, I'm asking you, you're in the industry, I'm asking you about the standard of care in your industry.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:47.822)
Geez.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:48.163)
Do you think your standard of care, talking to your audience, is any different than a random
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anonymous person on Twitter who's not a commercial media person? Do you believe that?
Unknown Speaker (01:01:56.023)
I'm not sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:57.742)
Ooh, there's the wall.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:58.742)
Wah! (laughs)
Unknown Speaker (01:02:00.342)
So, this is another great moment that you could really dissect for hours.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:04.563)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:04.702)
Like, Alex talks about these moments that he has that are like, "I could teach a class on this," and I
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feel like I could teach a class on that.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:10.103)
I agree.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:10.742)
It contains something that I think is quintessential about people like Owen, and if you can
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see it, you can never really look at them as a respectable person again.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:18.722)
He's very clearly being led down a path where he has no choice but to admit that he put in
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no effort into verifying this mugshot,
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and in the process, the plaintiff was
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misidentified as a mass murderer to
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Owen's audience. And at this point in the deposition, Mark has identified at least
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one other incident where Owen did the
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exact same thing, in the case of Uvalde, and another incident where using
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unverified stories on air led to him defaming Sandy Hook parent Neil Husson.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:43.603)
This is a very clear and well-illustrated pattern of behavior connecting Owen's actions to their effects.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:49.762)
Owen can understand words, so he knows that he's in a real bind here, which leads to him lashing out.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:56.083)
He tries a gotcha moment, where he says that
Unknown Speaker (01:02:58.603)
he seems to always get in trouble, but these random Twitter accounts he uses as a source never get sued.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:03.983)
He thinks that this is gonna be a real problem for Mark, as if
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this isn't something that he's ever thought about before.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:09.503)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:09.702)
Owen thinks this is a dunk and it's gonna lead to him gaining the
Unknown Speaker (01:03:12.902)
upper hand in the conversation, but he seems to have no idea that this only leads to a more
Unknown Speaker (01:03:18.043)
damning follow-up question. Owen has no
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conception that saying these random Twitter accounts don't get sued could possibly lead to,
Unknown Speaker (01:03:25.282)
"Do you think you have more journalistic duties than a random Twitter account?"
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Owen thought he was gonna evade this line of questioning entirely
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and point the finger at someone else, but instead, he ended up tripping over his own
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feet, and now he has to answer a yes-or-no question
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about whether he's more legitimate than a random Twitter account. If he says
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yes, he's accepting the premise that he fucked up with this mugshot.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:46.422)
If he says no, then he's accepting that his work is meaningless and you shouldn't take it,
Unknown Speaker (01:03:50.742)
uh, uh, take anything more from it th- than a tweet, that's j- that's how serious this
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or, or real any of their shit is. It's a fucking fake pictured, uh, Twitter account.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:00.842)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:01.362)
It's a tough spot he's landed in, and you can tell that he doesn't want to accept
Unknown Speaker (01:04:05.103)
either of these positions. And so, he does the only thing that could be worse, he says he doesn't know.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:11.643)
Owen Shroyer doesn't know if he, as a journalist and
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major talk show host working for God's chosen soldier
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fighting the literal devil, he doesn't know if he has a higher standard of credibility to maintain
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than a random person on Twitter. That's absurd and there's
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no way he doesn't feel like that's an awful way to answer that question.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:30.282)
I- I like that there wasn't a follow-up to ask more there, too, because
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by just letting Owen's answer of, "I don't know," sit there-
Unknown Speaker (01:04:38.483)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:38.643)
... it makes him look that much more stupid.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:40.322)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:40.943)
It's crazy, that moment.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:42.822)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:43.983)
I- I mean,
Unknown Speaker (01:04:46.242)
I- it... If I'm... (sighs)
Unknown Speaker (01:04:50.943)
Okay, let me try and put it this way.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:53.523)
I have never been in a deposition.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:55.563)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:56.023)
I have only listened to clips of these depositions.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:00.282)
I feel as though I have learned more about depositions than all of the InfoWars people
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who have been in them-
Unknown Speaker (01:05:08.523)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:08.742)
... as well as their lawyers. Because I feel like if I'm preparing Owen for a deposition,
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the first thing I say is, "Have you listened to some of your old depositions? Let's kinda
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loo- look through those and see where we made mistakes."
Unknown Speaker (01:05:21.503)
Check out some of the game tape.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:22.822)
Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:23.583)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:23.623)
How do you not do that?
Unknown Speaker (01:05:25.063)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:25.742)
And then you just, you just say, "Oh..." So
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when he asks you those questions where you're like, "I've got an answer," you don't.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:33.742)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:34.422)
Just say no.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:35.402)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:35.782)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:35.802)
Or you- you think there's, like, a moment where you're gonna, like, flip the script? You're not.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:39.603)
You're not going to f- you're not going to win an arm wrestle. This is not an arm wrestling competition.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:44.742)
Right. And I think the issue is that Owen
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is used to existing in spaces where he's, like, just yelling at somebody at a protest-
Unknown Speaker (01:05:51.342)
Totally.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:51.643)
... in front of an iPhone or whatever, and oftentimes, you can catch them off-guard
Unknown Speaker (01:05:56.902)
and, uh, uh, sorta overwhelm them and badger them-
Unknown Speaker (01:06:00.143)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:00.143)
... with stuff like, "Hey, why do I get in
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trouble, but this Twitter user doesn't?" And maybe they'll be flustered by this.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:06.262)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:06.563)
Or, if you're on your show and there is nobody to respond to you, and you're just saying that, it feels good-
Unknown Speaker (01:06:13.202)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:13.222)
... and there's no pushback.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:14.483)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:14.922)
But when you're in a situation like this and you try those same tactics,
Unknown Speaker (01:06:18.742)
they're just not gonna work, and you're gonna end up in
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deeper water than you were in originally, because now
Unknown Speaker (01:06:25.643)
you don't know if you take yourself more seriously than a random person on Twitter.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:28.983)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:29.362)
And that is an unacceptable thing to imagine that you believe about yourself.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:33.463)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:34.202)
Uh, I just, I- I love it.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:36.003)
Yeah. Uh, just- just, like, in a simple,
Unknown Speaker (01:06:38.782)
"Hey, buddy, let's take a look at your quiver of arrows, all right? You think you have more than one."
Unknown Speaker (01:06:46.619)
... I don't think you have one.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:48.039)
No.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:48.559)
So just throw the bow down, say yes or no, and we'll go to lunch.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:53.519)
Yeah. And it's gonna be, it's, it's like, answer yes or no
Unknown Speaker (01:06:56.998)
and, uh, it's gonna be worse for you if you try to get fancy.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:00.039)
Just-
Unknown Speaker (01:07:00.278)
Because you're just get- I'm just gonna ask you a follow-up question to that, that-
Unknown Speaker (01:07:04.199)
Totally.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:04.900)
... sounds, makes you sound worse.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:05.938)
You, I mean, and we exist, and they know we exist, and it affects their deposition
Unknown Speaker (01:07:12.259)
s- tape stuff.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:13.518)
Uh-huh.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:13.900)
Like, I mean, I don't, I just don't understand. I would be, I'm,
Unknown Speaker (01:07:16.980)
I would honestly be stoked to be tabo- deposed at this
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point, because it would be the most boring deposition ever.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:23.179)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (01:07:23.298)
No one's doing an episode about my deposition.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:26.239)
Probably not.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:26.239)
I'm just gonna go like, "Eh, no, yes, all right, we done here?"
Unknown Speaker (01:07:30.278)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (01:07:30.498)
That's it.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:31.878)
Why?
Unknown Speaker (01:07:32.338)
Probably.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:32.938)
Huh?
Unknown Speaker (01:07:33.318)
It wouldn't go like this, that's for sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:34.599)
No. No, no, no, no.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:35.699)
So, um, we have heard a lot of these depositions, and we've heard the one with Owen before.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:41.099)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:41.438)
Uh, in, in the Sandy Hook case. And one of the things that I thought, uh, uh, you know, stuck out about that
Unknown Speaker (01:07:48.759)
was that Owen, uh, seemed to understand what he had done wrong.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:54.599)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:55.298)
Uh, maybe it was because of Bill's, uh, aggressive-
Unknown Speaker (01:07:58.418)
Sure, I'm a puppet.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:59.018)
... teddy bear act. (laughs)
Unknown Speaker (01:08:00.358)
Yeah. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:00.739)
You know?
Unknown Speaker (01:08:00.938)
Yeah, yeah. I guess I am a puppet.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:02.398)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:02.619)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:02.659)
And, and he did
Unknown Speaker (01:08:04.179)
seem to recognize, "This is the error that was made, and we can do better than this in the future."
Unknown Speaker (01:08:09.998)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:10.518)
Um, and so, uh, Mark brings that up in this position.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:13.739)
Have we unlearned that lesson?
Unknown Speaker (01:08:15.199)
Exactly.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:15.619)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (01:08:16.618)
Going back to the use of that anonymous blog
Unknown Speaker (01:08:19.819)
about Sandy Hook parent Neil Huslan, you acknowledged that was a serious error on your part, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:08:25.078)
Yes, and you're well aware of what led to those circumstances, because you know
Unknown Speaker (01:08:29.918)
a very similar thing happened where somebody brought that to me.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:32.679)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:33.679)
And you acknowledged that that was a serious error on your part.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:36.698)
Yes-
Unknown Speaker (01:08:36.878)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (01:08:36.899)
... I wish I wouldn't have done that.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:38.399)
You called it the worst moment of your journalism career.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:40.899)
Yeah, you're still bringing it up to this day.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:42.298)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (01:08:42.599)
And this, what we're talking about today, is the same kind of error.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:46.838)
Hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:47.158)
Objection, Your Honor.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:47.958)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (01:08:49.019)
No, definitely not the same kind of error, except that you pounced on it to bring me here.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:52.979)
Not the same kind of error.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:54.859)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (01:08:55.338)
It's exactly the same thing.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:57.338)
It is
Unknown Speaker (01:08:58.439)
so the same kind of error, it is comical to all of us.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:02.599)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:03.559)
And, uh, that refusal to understand or accept that is, uh, probably a survival adaptation.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:10.319)
It has to be.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:11.198)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:11.319)
Right? We're, we're in full-on, like,
Unknown Speaker (01:09:13.838)
baboon-level territory, of he's like making screeching sounds and showing his red ass.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:19.759)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:19.859)
Like, we're not in a, this is a thinking, being situation.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:23.498)
I, I can't imagine actually being able to contain the thought that this is, like,
Unknown Speaker (01:09:29.998)
meaningfully different than these other times that you've relied on bad information to defame somebody.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:35.479)
Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:36.158)
Uh, and last time you pretended that you'd learned your lesson, and you clearly haven't.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:39.859)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:40.439)
Um, and so, uh-
Unknown Speaker (01:09:42.599)
I feel like the words "I'll throw myself out" should be involved here. Like,
Unknown Speaker (01:09:45.859)
the moment he says that he'll just be like, "You
Unknown Speaker (01:09:47.338)
know what? I'll throw myself out. I got this one, guys." (laughs)
Unknown Speaker (01:09:50.078)
Instead, what they do is, uh, Mark decides to read from the past deposition-
Unknown Speaker (01:09:54.698)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (01:09:55.319)
... read Owen's words back to him.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:56.918)
Ah, why you gotta read my words, man?
Unknown Speaker (01:09:58.939)
Come on.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:59.238)
Come on!
Unknown Speaker (01:10:00.238)
All right, Mr. Shurer, you see there, um,
Unknown Speaker (01:10:02.279)
right in front of you is a cover page for the deposition testimony you gave in 2021. Do you see that?
Unknown Speaker (01:10:07.378)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:07.779)
Okay. Can you, uh, and you'll see that there are, it's condensed, so there are four pages per page.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:14.158)
All right? And if you can flip into that to me, to page 116.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:30.618)
Okay. All right, and do you see a highlighted part up at the top of that page?
Unknown Speaker (01:10:34.679)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:35.059)
Okay, I'm gonna read that question and answer to you. Okay?
Unknown Speaker (01:10:37.238)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:37.538)
"But
Unknown Speaker (01:10:38.658)
sitting here today, when you go back to InfoWars, are you gonna g- just be
Unknown Speaker (01:10:43.099)
on live, get handed a story with clips from someone you don't remember who it is,
Unknown Speaker (01:10:47.819)
and run it, or are you going to make sure it was fact-checked?"
Unknown Speaker (01:10:51.219)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (01:10:52.038)
And your answer was, "Well, I would say, after this experience,
Unknown Speaker (01:10:56.059)
I am, I am highly less likely to be handed a story or a video clip and air it
Unknown Speaker (01:11:01.618)
without checking it myself." Do you see that?
Unknown Speaker (01:11:03.618)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:04.439)
All right.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:05.458)
But that wasn't true, because you've been doing that most days on your show ever since, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:11:09.939)
Objection, Your Honor.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:11.139)
Nope.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:11.158)
And that's what you did in this case, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:11:12.639)
Nope, not at all.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:14.458)
Not the same thing to you.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:15.399)
Not even close.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:16.738)
Great.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:17.338)
Great. Great. So yeah, I think you have, um, uh, uh,
Unknown Speaker (01:11:20.899)
I d-
Unknown Speaker (01:11:22.078)
h- I, I don't think that this is the most, like, um,
Unknown Speaker (01:11:26.738)
d- fact-finding of depositions.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:28.658)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:28.998)
There's an element of this that is almost, like, uh,
Unknown Speaker (01:11:32.378)
shaming.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:33.538)
I, I do feel like at a, at, at a certain point, Mark could've gone, "None of us need to be here."
Unknown Speaker (01:11:39.559)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:39.859)
"You know that and I know that." But e- there's also a part of Mark that's like,
Unknown Speaker (01:11:44.078)
"I can just whip you all day if I want to."
Unknown Speaker (01:11:46.319)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:46.618)
I, you can't leave.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:47.979)
Oh, and, and I think that there is a value to it beyond just, sort of a, um,
Unknown Speaker (01:11:52.458)
like a pu- like a shaming and rubbing your nose in it.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:54.958)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:55.378)
And that, the last time that there was a case that
Unknown Speaker (01:11:58.078)
Owen was sued in, they had, uh, uh, what appeared to be a promise to
Unknown Speaker (01:12:04.179)
behave differently in the future based on, uh, what
Unknown Speaker (01:12:08.479)
was the... Like, he got away with, uh, not getting super severe punishments-
Unknown Speaker (01:12:14.679)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:14.779)
... in the Sandy Hook case.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:15.719)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:16.338)
Um, and largely some of that might've been predicated on the appearance of learning a lesson
Unknown Speaker (01:12:21.099)
and the appearance of slight cooperation and, and a promise to do better. So, him
Unknown Speaker (01:12:26.399)
being forced to acknowledge and deal with
Unknown Speaker (01:12:30.298)
someone saying, "Hey, you didn't do better."
Unknown Speaker (01:12:32.899)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:33.198)
"That's why we're here again."
Unknown Speaker (01:12:34.599)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:35.118)
I think that that's not just scoldy. There is, there is a point to it.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:39.158)
Yeah, no, the dunce cap didn't work last time.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:41.378)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:42.019)
Uh, you're still a little boy.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:44.719)
I don't know what to do next, but I guess tie you to a post and whip you.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:48.338)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:48.538)
Um-
Unknown Speaker (01:12:48.578)
There, there's nothing more really to gain out of this exchange.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:51.798)
No.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:52.038)
Uh, but we've, we've had this moment and now you can reflect on it, but you're not going to.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:57.118)
Nope.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:57.479)
So whatever.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:58.118)
What are we doing?
Unknown Speaker (01:12:58.918)
But now that there's been the shaming, uh,
Unknown Speaker (01:13:01.279)
w- we just wrap up.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:02.158)
Yep. Yeah. (laughs)
Unknown Speaker (01:13:02.998)
So you see after your answer,
Unknown Speaker (01:13:05.439)
Mr. Ogden says, "Justice system is working. Not all the way, but that's a big step forward for us.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:11.979)
Not, I'm not, and I'm not saying that sarcastically.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:15.698)
Genuinely, for both you and I, and my clients, we appreciate that position."
Unknown Speaker (01:13:21.019)
Mr. Ogden was being a bit naive there, wouldn't you agree?
Unknown Speaker (01:13:23.298)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:24.939)
Objection, Your Honor.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:25.519)
Let me ask you again today, I'm wondering today, now after this experience-
Unknown Speaker (01:13:30.059)
(laughs)
Unknown Speaker (01:13:30.259)
... sitting here today, when you go back to InfoWars, are you ever gonna be on just live and
Unknown Speaker (01:13:35.618)
run with a story and discuss things that are on your desk that you've never seen before?
Unknown Speaker (01:13:39.899)
Or are you gonna make sure it was fact-checked?
Unknown Speaker (01:13:42.578)
Uh, nope.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:45.279)
Huh?
Unknown Speaker (01:13:45.498)
There you go. Thank you, Mr. Shurer.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:48.979)
That's all I need from you today.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:51.439)
We'll call it a deposition.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:53.158)
Yeah, so that's, uh, you know. I feel like the, you know, the reading of Bill's, uh,
Unknown Speaker (01:13:58.078)
you know, I'm not being sarcastic, this is-
Unknown Speaker (01:13:59.958)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:59.958)
... this is a outcome that is positive.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:02.578)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:03.279)
I think it's kind of a reminder or almost like a,
Unknown Speaker (01:14:07.019)
this i- we keep trying
Unknown Speaker (01:14:09.338)
to offer you, uh, a rec- like an ability to recognize, or an opportunity to recognize-
Unknown Speaker (01:14:14.198)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:14.378)
... what this is about.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:15.578)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:15.819)
And you refuse to recognize that.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:17.599)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:18.219)
Um-
Unknown Speaker (01:14:18.998)
It is, it is
Unknown Speaker (01:14:21.519)
maybe,
Unknown Speaker (01:14:23.759)
um,
Unknown Speaker (01:14:24.958)
extremely funny
Unknown Speaker (01:14:27.658)
that Mark is reading a sincere
Unknown Speaker (01:14:32.378)
note
Unknown Speaker (01:14:33.618)
sarcastically.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:34.658)
Hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:35.479)
In the sincer- in the sere- sincere note, he's like, "I'm not being sarcastic," and Mark is like,
Unknown Speaker (01:14:40.198)
"Now we are being sarcastic. That is what is happening now."
Unknown Speaker (01:14:43.399)
Uh, yeah. It, it's, there's layers of sarcasm and sincerity to it.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:48.019)
Yeah, yeah. Fascinating.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:48.899)
That is like, uh, this offer is still available to you.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:53.359)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:53.679)
To recognize
Unknown Speaker (01:14:55.658)
what the problem with these behaviors are.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:57.859)
Mm...
Unknown Speaker (01:14:58.198)
You know, the problems with the behaviors aren't like that you love guns-
Unknown Speaker (01:15:01.658)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:01.838)
... or that you think that Joe Biden's evil, or whatever.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:04.338)
Sure, sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:04.819)
The problem with your behavior is that you're so reckless with this information
Unknown Speaker (01:15:09.338)
that you end up defaming public, uh, private citizens.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:12.939)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:13.479)
And
Unknown Speaker (01:15:14.538)
the, like,
Unknown Speaker (01:15:15.878)
the ability or the, the, the offer of-
Unknown Speaker (01:15:23.546)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:23.827)
... uh, is there. It was there sincerely the first time.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:27.646)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:28.006)
And Owen appeared to accept that offer.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:30.527)
Theoretically.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:31.207)
This time, the offer is still there-
Unknown Speaker (01:15:33.186)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:33.186)
... of "Recognize this."
Unknown Speaker (01:15:34.487)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:34.886)
But, there is definitely more of the sarcasm of, "Bill was being a little bit naive," right?
Unknown Speaker (01:15:40.827)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:41.307)
Like, w- you're not going to change.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:43.266)
It is fascinating to inject so much, uh, uh, contradictory meaning into a small number of words.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:52.487)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:52.907)
In so far as, how is it possible to say, "Bill was being naive" and yet be naive yourself?
Unknown Speaker (01:15:59.167)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:59.568)
How is it possible to say, "Bill wasn't being sarcastic" sarcastically?
Unknown Speaker (01:16:04.087)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:04.368)
It's fascinating.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:05.487)
Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a naivete, but it's a decreased naivete.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:10.207)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:10.606)
It's a sincerity, but with a little heightened
Unknown Speaker (01:16:13.787)
sarcasm that just comes from, I think, that, like, uh, that dynamic of
Unknown Speaker (01:16:18.827)
th- this is, we're doing this again.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:20.546)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:20.667)
You know? It is, uh, it's, it's a, f- you know,
Unknown Speaker (01:16:24.347)
when you, you, you treat a first, second, and third warning a little bit
Unknown Speaker (01:16:27.606)
differently, you know, when it's the same behavior.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:29.907)
Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm worried that at this point, we're, we're borderline saying like, "Hey, man.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:36.686)
Six or 7,000 more examples, and we're really gonna come down hard on you."
Unknown Speaker (01:16:40.127)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:40.407)
Six or 7,000. Maybe eight. Maybe eight. But 10 is our max.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:45.686)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:45.966)
10,000 more examples-
Unknown Speaker (01:16:47.547)
Well-
Unknown Speaker (01:16:47.627)
... and you're in trouble, sir.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:48.926)
Well, the issue, the issue, I think, is that I don't know what authority you have to call down a punishment.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:54.408)
Totally.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:54.887)
And th- uh, you know,
Unknown Speaker (01:16:57.207)
uh, th- it's more a, "Okay, we have 6,000 examples here.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:02.106)
Can you please change your behavior? Can you please operate in, uh, like a modicum of good faith?"
Unknown Speaker (01:17:08.247)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:08.506)
And just please recognize
Unknown Speaker (01:17:11.587)
why, like, th- x, oh, you did x again.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:15.167)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:15.546)
Oh, you did x again. Oh. Um, and, and h- in hope that there is not a punishment that's necessary.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:21.426)
There's a reflection and a changing.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:23.886)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:24.367)
Um, and, um, maybe
Unknown Speaker (01:17:28.226)
the, the naivete is believing that this is likely to happen.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:32.726)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:33.306)
But the-
Unknown Speaker (01:17:34.947)
I guess the reflection and the change
Unknown Speaker (01:17:36.926)
sh- should probably come on the side of people who can reflect and can change.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:41.226)
And it is.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:42.167)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:42.766)
And it does.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:43.527)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:44.106)
I think.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:45.207)
Um, and that's reflected in
Unknown Speaker (01:17:47.867)
not taking, uh, it as seriously that Owen could possibly learn his lesson-
Unknown Speaker (01:17:53.087)
Yep.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:53.466)
... from this.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:54.106)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:54.346)
That is the, the, the heightened sarcasm and the lowered naivete is a reflection of that change-
Unknown Speaker (01:17:59.546)
Yeah. Totally.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:00.046)
... it appears.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:01.567)
Um, but yeah. I, I think this was an interesting cross-section. It's a short deposition-
Unknown Speaker (01:18:05.947)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:06.067)
... but, I think that th- there's a couple of those
Unknown Speaker (01:18:07.886)
moments that are really, really, they, they, they show you something.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:11.686)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:12.367)
Um, and so I'm glad, uh, we could, t- we could go over it.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:15.506)
I, I, I mean, you know,
Unknown Speaker (01:18:18.027)
it is so
Unknown Speaker (01:18:19.747)
weird
Unknown Speaker (01:18:21.686)
to put these people in a place
Unknown Speaker (01:18:24.747)
that should be boring.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:26.907)
You know?
Unknown Speaker (01:18:27.386)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:27.707)
They just, they just, th- they're like,
Unknown Speaker (01:18:30.247)
they're like insects in a jar. They can't
Unknown Speaker (01:18:32.466)
just be chill, you know? They just gotta fly
Unknown Speaker (01:18:34.806)
around and hit all the goddamn walls, and it's like, "You're not going anywhere!"
Unknown Speaker (01:18:38.327)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:38.707)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:39.006)
I think some of that is 'cause they're so used to everything is, is performance.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:43.487)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:43.627)
And you know, like, the show is performance. They go out on the streets with their
Unknown Speaker (01:18:47.087)
camera and their iPhones and yell at people. It's performance.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:50.787)
Mm-hmm.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:51.306)
And so for that, this is a kind of a, uh, doing a show.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:54.426)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:54.726)
You know? And, uh,
Unknown Speaker (01:18:56.707)
and it's a bummer.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:57.487)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:18:58.587)
Anyway, uh, we'll be back with another episode. Uh, but until then, we have a website.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:02.106)
Indeed we do, at knowledgefight.com.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:03.506)
Yep. We'll be back. But until then, I'm Neo, um, Leo of DZXCLARK. I am the mysterious professor.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:08.407)
Woo, yeah. Woo, yeah, woo.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:11.106)
And now, here comes w- the sex robots.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:13.346)
Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks for holding.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:15.367)
Hello, Alex. I'm a first-time caller. I'm a huge fan. I love your work.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:20.606)
I love you.
