Transcript/935: June 17, 2024
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N-N-N-N-N-N-N-Knowledge Fight
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Dan and Jordan, I am sweating.
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Knowledgefight.com, it's time to pray.
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I have great respect for Knowledgefight.
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Knowledgefight.
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I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys, saying we are the bad guys.
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Knowledgefight.
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Dan and Jordan, Knowledgefight.
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Riddle her, riddle her, riddle her.
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I need, I need money.
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Riddle her, riddle her, riddle her.
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Andy in Kansas, Andy in Kansas.
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Stop it.
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Andy in Kansas, Andy in Kansas.
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It's time to pray.
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Andy in Kansas, you're on the air place for holding.
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Hello Alex, I'm a first time caller, I'm a huge fan.
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I love your room.
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Knowledgefight.
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N-N-N-N-N-Knowledgefight.com.
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I love you.
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Hey everybody, welcome back to Knowledgefight, I'm Dan.
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I'm Jordan.
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We're a couple dudes, I can sit around and worship at the altar of Selene and talk a
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little bit about Alex Jones.
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Oh indeed we are, Dan.
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Jordan.
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Dan.
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Jordan.
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Quick question for you.
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What's up?
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What's your bright spot today, buddy?
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My bright spot today, Jordan, is we are here and there's a reason, there's something,
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something massive happened that we cannot wait until Friday to talk about.
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Okay.
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We're here on this Wednesday because the Earth shook.
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Okay.
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On Monday.
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Alright.
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Everything changed.
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I don't know what happened on Monday.
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The beginning and the end, this will be a demarcation point in time.
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Everything changed.
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History will remember this day.
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Alright.
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Monday.
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Wait, our, us, or Monday?
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What?
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Today or Monday?
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Monday.
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Monday.
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So not today.
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Monday evening.
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Right, but the world won't remember today, us.
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No, probably not.
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We have nothing to do with this, we are mere spectators.
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Alright, fine.
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Fine.
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Fine.
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Uncle Howdy is back.
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So on WWE Raw, Uncle Howdy came back.
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You are joking.
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No, no.
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I'm very worried.
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How can Uncle Howdy come back?
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Because Uncle Howdy is played by Bray Wyatt's brother, Bo Dallas.
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Right.
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Right, right, right.
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And so almost as an homage and a carrying on the legacy of Bray Wyatt since he passed tragically.
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Yes.
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And they brought Uncle Howdy back with a crew.
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He's got a crew.
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Is that the way to do it?
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I think it is actually.
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Okay.
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I think, it was very well presented in terms of the, it was very horror movie, very cinematic.
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Sure.
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They had killed everyone backstage.
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They killed everyone backstage?
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Everyone appeared to be dead.
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Okay, so it was like a Simpsons treehouse of horrors kind of thing.
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Yes, kind of.
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Gotcha.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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Other wrestlers were like blood coming down their head and shit.
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It was not a pile of bodies.
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They were really committing to this.
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They were going for it.
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Yes.
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Okay.
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Good for them.
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In that sense, I do think it is a kind of nice homage to what Bray Wyatt probably would
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have continued to do.
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Right.
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Nice little summer ween.
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And if you're somebody who is in the business, in a business like wrestling with your brother
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and you pass away, I think obviously you would want your brother to succeed and do great
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things, even if it means kind of carrying on this vein that you had been doing.
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Sure.
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Bo Dallas is a good wrestler and a great character in and of himself.
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He's done some great stuff in the past.
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Sure.
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Doesn't connect to me the same way as Bray Wyatt did.
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Right.
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But I don't know.
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I'm tentatively excited.
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Why not?
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Right.
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Why not?
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Yeah.
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What is the worst that could happen?
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Yeah.
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I mean-
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Let's not even think about what the worst that could happen.
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Let's think about what's the best that could happen.
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The last time Uncle Haddie was around, we had a glow in the dark match.
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Let's not worry about the worst that could happen.
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Let's worry about what the best thing that could happen is.
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Brought to you by Mountain Dew.
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So I'm worried.
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I'm thinking worried.
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Right.
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Right.
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But there's a lot of promise here, I think.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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He's got a crew.
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One of them is the old Eric Rowan from the original Wyatt family.
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Sure.
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So you've got some of that legacy carrying over.
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Of course.
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Unfortunately, the other person who was in the Wyatt family is also dead.
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Jesus, man.
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Yeah.
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Tragic.
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Brutal.
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Young Pass is just passing the scene.
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You wear a mask and sometimes it becomes your face.
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So if you become a swamp monster, sometimes you can die young.
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I don't know where I was going with that.
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I think that there is a way to do this that is all quite honoring and well done, even
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recognizing the fact that Bray is dead.
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Right.
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And this is Bray's brother.
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As long as it's not sponsored by Mountain Dew.
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Please keep...
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I would hope they keep that away from this.
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Keep goofy bullshit kind of to a minimum.
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It'd be nice.
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Yeah, it'd be nice.
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There was a point where the Fiend, one of Bray's character, had a giant cartoon-sized
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mallet that he was carrying around.
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He did not.
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Yeah.
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It's like, oh...
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It's fun, though.
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It's a little...
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I like a good mallet.
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It's on the line.
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I like a good mallet.
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When is a bad time to see an intimidating, gigantic mallet?
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Anyway, the world will never be the same.
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True.
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Uncle Howdy.
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All right.
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Fair enough.
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What comes back?
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What's your Bright Spot?
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What's my Bright Spot?
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My Bright Spot is...
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I think this happens once every four or five years.
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I rediscover a Kings of Convenience album called Versus.
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So the Kings of Convenience were a Norwegian folk duo around the early aughts era.
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How convenient.
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Yeah, of course.
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They were a more poppy version of Simon and Garfunkel, but from Norway or whatever.
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And then they were on the Ninja Tunes label in the UK, which had everybody who was an
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underground producer, a bunch of...
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It had Lemon Jelly, it had Roots Meduva.
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It had a bunch of really, really cool stuff on there, but none of it was fucking folk.
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It was all electro, it was all dance.
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It was all rock or punk or something like that.
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So because they had the Kings of Convenience on the label, they just let everybody in Ninja
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Tunes fuck around with their songs for a while.
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And they put out this album, which is like this amazing remix album of this folk duo
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with all these different kinds of instrumentations.
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It's really cool.
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That is always interesting.
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You take that sort of backbone and you add other influences and weird styles to it.
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Yeah.
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There's some that are really, really good.
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And Lady Tron even shows up, because why not?
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Sure.
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It's Lady Tron.
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I'll check that one out.
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That sounds like something I could enjoy.
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It's really good.
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Yeah.
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So I discovered it again while I was doing yoga and I was like, hell yeah.
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So I've listened to that for two days straight now.
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Nice.
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Yeah.
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Way to go.
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Yay.
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Hooray.
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So we're going to do a little episode here today, Jordan.
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We're going to be talking about the day that Uncle Howdy came back.
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Okay.
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Bigger return for me than The Rock.
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When The Rock came back, who cares?
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Yeah.
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Uncle Howdy.
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We'd seen a lot of The Rock.
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It's true.
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We've seen too much of The Rock.
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Overexposed.
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A little bit.
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Uncle Howdy.
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Uncle Howdy has started zero Fast and Furious spinoffs.
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However.
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There was no Uncle Howdy and Sean.
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I'd be interested.
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I'm not saying I wouldn't like to see him team up with Statham.
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It would be interesting if The Fast and Furious just went all in on Bond and just started
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doing different genres of movie every time, like, fine, we've already gone to space.
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Why not do a horror movie Fast and Furious?
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Where they have to outrace Jason or Freddy.
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Absolutely.
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Yes.
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Fast versus Freddy.
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I live my life quarter mile at a time, bitch.
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In the dream.
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I can see it.
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I like it.
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I like it a lot.
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So we're going to be talking about June 17th, 2024, which is of course later on in the day.
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Alex had no way to know that Uncle Howdy would be coming back, so we're not going to be talking
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about any of that.
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Alex did not have any take on Uncle Howdy.
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Right.
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So you'll have to forgive him for his naivete about this major world issue.
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The world hadn't changed yet.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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So we'll get down to business on this, but first let's say hello to some new wonks.
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Ooh, that's a great idea.
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So first, the case of MGM versus Honda was litigated for MGM by firm Kay Schoeler and
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its attorney Robert Barnes, and while there's no way it's him, it did make me say Bobby
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Barnes, media star, out loud to a courtroom full of fifth graders doing mock trial.
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Thank you so much.
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You are now a policy wonk.
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I'm a policy wonk.
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Thank you very much.
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Might have been him.
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Yep.
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Next, Gil Cornell from the Williamsburg School for Architecture and Design.
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Thank you so much.
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You are now a policy wonk.
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I'm a policy wonk.
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Thank you very much.
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Thank you.
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Next, August from Illinois.
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Thank you so much.
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You are now a policy wonk.
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I'm a policy wonk.
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Thank you very much.
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August from Illinois.
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You know what's great?
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August in Illinois.
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Temperatures...
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It's a little hot.
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Next, you can't arrest me.
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I quit.
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I quit.
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I quit.
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Oh, boy.
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Uh-huh.
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You made it the mistake.
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I started scanning ahead to parentheses.
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You're so close.
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Baven Shylava.
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Thank you so much.
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You are now a policy wonk.
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I'm a policy wonk.
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Thank you very much.
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Thank you.
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And when I'm feeling down, I think about Jordan saying, hi, Kerry, to Kerry Cassidy, and it
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really cheers me up.
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Thank you so much.
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You are now a policy wonk.
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I'm a policy wonk.
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Thank you very much.
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So this Monday episode, there's a lot going on on it, and we're going to ignore a vast
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majority of it because it doesn't really matter.
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Right.
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So there's one earth-shaking major piece of thing that happens that is actually a huge
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dud, and that is that Alex has Peter McCullough, COVID anti-vax doctor fellow, Peter McCullough,
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he's on, and Alex promotes it as like, they have found the off switch for the COVID vaccine.
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Okay.
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So I got really excited about like, oh, we're going to really set in stone how we're going
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to get out of this narrative dead end.
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Yeah, that's great.
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Yeah.
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But he doesn't have any specifics and he's just like, we figured out that maybe there's
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something to do.
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And so it's all just selling his supplements that are supposed to help you deal with the
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effects of the COVID vaccine.
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So there isn't anything specific there, although it does seem like this is the direction that
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we're going to end up going with narratives is finding a cure for the COVID vaccine.
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And that way we can explain a way why all the planet doesn't die.
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Like here's the problem, all right.
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What they've created is essentially a disease and what they need is a vaccine.
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Right.
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And they were going to find it sooner or later.
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Right.
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And it can't be a vaccine.
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No, it'll be some kind of weird unregulated supplement.
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So also Judy Mikovits is on, another anti-vex weirdo.
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Luminary in the field of stealing money from rich people.
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She is going for it.
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She's swinging for fences all over the place.
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She says that every vaccine and shot that anyone has ever gotten since 2009 has been
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the COVID vaccine.
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I love that.
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She is just out there.
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You texted me about that and that's the type of swing that I'm looking for.
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Yeah.
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It's all COVID.
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Yeah.
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It wasn't just almost impossible to follow the line of what she's going through.
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I might've covered that and I wish I would've pulled the clip of her saying, there's no
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bird flu.
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What?
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Is a bird sneezing?
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I mean, that's just great.
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That's just great.
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That's just great.
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It is.
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It is.
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Man, I am still mad that we are never going to get to the bottom of Steve Puchenik being
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the first person to have and cure COVID.
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That seems so important to this 2009 narrative.
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Well, when they...
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Oh, that's true.
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He's going to have to bump his timeline back.
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He's going to have to bump it back.
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I guess if the new order of the day is we have a cure for COVID, Steve would be very
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helpful for that.
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That seems like...
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Since he cured himself.
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Oh, well.
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Oh, well.
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Anyway, we are not going to talk about a ton of that because something happens on this
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episode that I thought was much more deserving of our focus and that is that Alex is going
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to discuss some unintentional comedy that happened.
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All right.
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We've got all of that huge news today and Dr. Judy Mikovits is also joining us in studio
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in the third hour as well.
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Peter McCulloch, Dr. Judy Mikovits.
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So I'm going to table all the COVID news that is totally off the wall insane until that
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happens.
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Then we've got some really good unintentional comedy that I don't just go with comedy for
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comedy's sake, but if it's illustrative, if it's illustrative, if it really gets people
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to switch on their thinking cap, I'll do it.
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The problem with this story is it reminds me of a bunch of other examples of this.
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So I was really worried at this point that he was going to be talking about us on CNN.
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Okay.
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That'd be funny.
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There was a small part of my brain that was like, is that what he's going to talk about?
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I'm curious.
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If he was the only person who saw it, that'd be fucking hilarious.
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That's the unintentional comedy, does he hate my shirt, what's going on?
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But it is not that.
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No.
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And it's something I could never have predicted.
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It turns out that Chuck Schumer, for Father's Day, posted a picture and the internet is
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all, they can't stop talking about it.
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All right.
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So this is unintentional comedy about Chuck Schumer that is illustrative.
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Yes.
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Because of the Father's Day picture that he posted.
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Because of the Father's Day picture.
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Because we have a bunch of other examples of this with Beto O'Rourke and Pocahontas,
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Elizabeth Warren, she's not that fat or I would call her Pocapotamus, but I'm inventing
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words up here.
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Is that intentional comedy?
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Because Chuck Schumer, on Father's Day, issued a post on X that he later withdrew where he's
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cooking raw hamburger meat with a piece of cheese on it.
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And if you zoom in on the HD, you can see it's gray hamburger, it's raw.
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It's just older hamburger.
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You got to zoom in on that.
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And they all issued similar photos.
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And what's bizarre is in almost all the photos, it's raw meat with a piece of cheese on it.
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So the internet went crazy with it.
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We're going to show you some big HD photos blown up.
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You can see it's raw meat.
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Alex spends a lot of time on this.
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Chuck Schumer has a raw hamburger.
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So all right.
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Now I have lived through three great events now, right?
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There was 9-11, there was Obama wearing a tan suit, and now there's hamburger gate.
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You would have to think that this is one of the most important things that ever happened
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if you are listening to Alex's show.
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Can you believe?
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Look at this.
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They zoom in a bunch of times.
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I can't believe they zoom in.
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I cannot believe they zoom in on the burger.
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It's on the grill, it's not cooked.
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So there's four burgers and one of them has a piece of cheese on it, it appears, but it
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also looks like it's more than one slice of cheese.
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So maybe it's just set there for the moment and then they're going to break it up onto
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the other patties.
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I'm not Zapruder filming a fucking hamburger.
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We are.
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No, we're going to.
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I called Chuck Schumer to get to the bottom.
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No, I didn't.
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But I was sitting there watching this, I'm like.
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There's a hamburger on the grassy knoll.
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Okay, worst case scenario, Chuck Schumer made a shitty burger.
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Yeah.
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I don't care.
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It does feel like that is the worst case scenario.
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Yeah.
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It's great.
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Well, it's illustrative of what we're doing with our lives.
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It is very illustrative, though, of the way that these people like Chuck Schumer are not
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humans.
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I'm sorry.
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They can't make a burger.
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Did we go that way?
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Great look.
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But it's raw.
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Blow it up.
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Zoom in.
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If you zoom in on that meat, you zoom in.
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I'm gonna do this later.
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I guess I'm already doing it.
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Folks, that's raw as my rear end.
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That is raw hamburger.
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And he's too stupid to go buy it fresh.
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So that's been on the store shelf a week or in his refrigerator two weeks.
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Do you think he goes shopping?
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And wait till we read this.
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But here's why I'm doing you a disservice.
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There's so much news, I don't have time to do it.
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But I do want maybe Rob Dewar, Darren McBrenner, one of the great researchers.
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There's a bunch of examples of this with Elizabeth Warren, Beto O'Rourke, and a bunch of others
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where Beto O'Rourke was cooking raw hamburger.
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He said it was cooked, and he was putting clearly raw hamburger not on a bun.
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He was putting it on English muffins.
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So this goes to the theory there, Space aliens.
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That does track.
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Because seriously, folks, not just Schumer, but the Clintons and a bunch of others put
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out photos over Father's Day showing how human they are, flipping raw hamburger, and then
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putting it on buns with cheese.
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And remember, they want us to, quote, eat the bugs.
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So I don't know anymore, folks.
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I mean, I'm not even joking at this point.
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Yeah, you just don't.
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So he later plays the video of Beto, and the burger is cooked, and Alex even has to concede
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that at a certain point.
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Well, I mean, at a certain point, you will admit that the burger was cooked.
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Because it's very obviously cooked.
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He is putting it on an English muffin, that is true.
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But then Alex is just swinging, and so Beto's plate has the English muffin on it in order
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to put the burger on the English muffin, and then there's a side of broccoli.
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And Alex is like, so dumb, he thinks broccoli's lettuce.
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So fucking dumb.
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This is the same level of thinking that was the underpinning, the backbone of help my
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teacher is an alien, right?
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Isn't that how they discovered that their teacher was an alien of some sort when the
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teacher took the mask off and had to eat something that was not of-
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Yes, a burger on an English muffin.
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On an English muffin, yeah.
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I don't want Alex to find out about the burgers that are on Dixie cream donuts.
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Oh, fucking hell.
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He's probably gonna go crazy with that.
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Have you had one of those though?
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Those are too good.
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Those are made by aliens.
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I have not, but I just can't imagine his just like, what unconventional buns.
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So anyway, look, here's the situation.
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How does he feel about a pretzel bun?
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Hate them.
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I mean, everybody loves a pretzel bun.
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I do.
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Alex is brioche or nothing.
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Brioche or nothing?
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Right.
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Oh, he's never even tried to roll?
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No.
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Oh, okay.
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Potato roll?
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No.
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Oh, there are these potato donuts.
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Nevermind.
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So look, here's the situation, and I just want to be abundantly clear about this.
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I don't give a fuck about this at all.
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No, no, no.
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I don't care about Alex's stupid shit.
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I don't care about any of this, but the reason that I wanted to play this and bring it up
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is because this is an example of Alex trying to bait the media into covering him that didn't
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work.
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This is another version of the, like, I'm going to eat my neighbors.
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But in the case of the I'm going to eat my neighbors, it was so sensational, and so it
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got people.
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It got all these outside of his media bubble accounts to post the video of him and make
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fun of him and stuff like that.
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He was trying to bait people into covering, oh, he thinks that Chuck Schumer's an alien
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because of this burger.
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Right, right, right.
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So he's trying to do that in order to be able to ride the wave.
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He's trying to National Enquirer it.
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Yeah, he's trying to coast on the wake of other people's coverage about this, and it
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just didn't work, which is kind of funny.
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It's sad.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It is more sad than anything else.
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Trying to get attention and failing is always, it's so sad.
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Especially when it's like this.
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Yeah.
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These people don't know burgers.
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Oh, man, that's sad.
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This is a bummer.
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Aren't you fighting the devil?
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Are we zooming in on a burger in the midst of this holy war between good and evil?
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More than once.
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Okay.
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Yeah.
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All right.
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He spends a lot of time on this.
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Okay.
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Because to a pod person, doesn't even know how to turn on a gas oven or a charcoal for
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that matter.
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Doesn't know how to grill a hamburger and get it juicy and sizzling and get it just
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right and put the piece of cheese on it and slide it onto that delicious bun.
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Just crispy a little bit on top of the, just throw the buns on about 30 seconds, get a
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nice little toastedness to it.
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They know nothing about any of that.
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Easiest thing to cook's a hamburger.
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I was looking at hamburgers when I was six years old, by the age of four, my dad's like,
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you come over here, you grill it.
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You want to do it.
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About once a week.
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My parents say, Hey, I was about eight years old, cook us French toast and scrambled eggs.
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When you're done, go mow the yard.
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And they weren't being mean to me.
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They didn't want an invalid.
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Didn't know how to run the, I remember one time my dad goes, well, it's time to reroof
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the house.
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And I was thinking it's a good family project.
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We got plenty of money to hire roofers, but we're not going to do that.
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Your uncle's coming over next Saturday and we're going to go today and buy the shingles
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and we're going to strip that off tomorrow.
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And then we're going to reroof the house Saturday.
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I remember my dad pulling up at three 30 school on Friday.
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It was in the spring.
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We go home, we tear off about half the shingles and get it done, got dark, got up the next
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morning, pulled off the rest and then roofed most of the house, me, my dad, my uncle into
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the night.
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And then the next day we got up Sunday morning, my dad said, yeah, we're not going to go to
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church today.
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We're going to finish reroofing the house.
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And by about one o'clock we were done and my dad said, we're going to, we're going to
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Billy Bob's and getting you a chicken fried steak, son.
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And that was just, it wasn't like some big thing.
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It was constant.
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We're going to roof the house.
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We're going to skin a buck.
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We're going to run a trot line.
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And to these pod people, they don't even know how to grill a hamburger.
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And they look at us and they think these are weirdos.
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They walk in here, these leftist, they're like, what's the engineer doing with a firearm
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on his side?
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Well, why do we have armed security here too?
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It's all bonded because we're not rolling over, bending over, waiting for somebody to
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come after us.
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We're like these churches that have the deacons that are armed.
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So when some crazy Satanists comes in or some Islamists and start shooting people, most
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of the time they don't kill one person before they get killed because there's trained men
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with guns that kill them.
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But it shows break with these people.
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They think we're, we're the weirdos.
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I do.
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I do think you're a weirdo.
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This whole thing is weird.
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Yes.
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This is weird.
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What's interesting about that clip is I think that Alex kind of forgot the point in the
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middle of that story about re-roofing the house and then he kind of remembered it, but
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it was too late.
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He remembered that he was supposed to be complaining about pod people not knowing how to make burgers.
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He was.
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But I think it was too late to save the ship.
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But then I do think it's weird.
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I don't think it's strange at all to be like, I'm slightly uncomfortable about the idea
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of a working environment where everyone's just got guns on.
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Or I don't want to consider the need for murder at church.
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Usually a good idea.
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I think that that's indicative of a larger problem.
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Probably.
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That is not that everyone is uptight about guns.
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Nah, it feels like everybody's just got to stick up their ass.
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That sounds about right.
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I appreciate everything that he's trying to do here.
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I think it would be fine.
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It's so fun because it is just like if you'd gone metaphorical, the idea is essentially
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these elites are out of touch with the common man.
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Like I get it.
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Sure.
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Fine.
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There are some bucolic pleasures like cooking a hamburger.
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I understand that.
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But what he's really talking about is how he is never going to be the man that his father
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was.
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And.
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I mean, isn't that what he's doing?
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There's a little bit of that.
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And there's also a little bit of like turning it into a larger point than it deserves to
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be.
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Yeah.
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I think it's fine to clown on people for like, you don't know how to make a burger, or whatever.
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Because you're rich and out of touch and, you know, X, Y or Z.
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But then to turn it into like, this is some sort of, this means something about one, they're
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not human, they're pod people or whatever.
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It's just desperate.
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That's too much.
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The taking it into like, they want us to eat the bugs, and that's what they're messaging
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with putting raw meat on these burgers.
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Cooking a bad hamburger is going to make me eat bugs?
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That doesn't make sense.
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It has part of the messaging, and I believe the way that this works is that they're trying
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to make eating meat look unappealing because they have these raw meat and these gross burgers
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and stuff.
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And so if you're watching it, you subconsciously are more willing to eat bugs.
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Putting it next to Chuck Schumer is what makes it unappealing.
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I don't think that there's any beef politics involved.
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I just don't think so.
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No.
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I get that there's a need to like, turn everything into a masculinity issue with these people.
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Because for them, everything is a masculinity issue.
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Yeah.
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That's a huge part of it.
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And then the other part is just like, there were a bunch of memes about this in Alex's
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social media feed, and that's what he covers.
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So basically, it turns into this weird loop of like, oh, a lot of people are getting attention
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talking and making jokes about the Chuck Schumer thing.
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So I'm going to pretend to be a little bit serious about this and try to desperately
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get some attention out of it myself.
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And this was just a swing and a miss.
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Bad miss.
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Yeah.
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This didn't work.
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But I saw this put up with the Clintons and others, so I guess it's like, well, get out.
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I think it's the PR firms are also pod people.
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They go, okay, get out here.
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It's the photo shoot, and they just put a piece of cheese on raw meat.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:43.400)
Okay, go ahead and put that now on the bun.
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Look, blow it up, zoom in.
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It's raw meat with cheese on it, and they put out more photos of them putting raw meat
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on buns.
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It's on info-wars.com.
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It's on my ex-account.
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Now, folks, that's space alien, okay?
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So no wonder they think I'm bad, because I'm still a human.
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I'm still normal.
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Still normal.
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Still very, very normal.
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All right.
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Hold on.
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Let me throw this out at you, all right?
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When I was growing up, all right, my dad, he could re-roof the house.
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He took my two older brothers.
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They re-roofed the house.
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They did the whole thing, right?
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Could he skin a buck and run a trot line?
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Couldn't cook for shit.
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Oh, no.
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Couldn't cook for shit.
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I can cook, but I can't do all that other stuff.
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What are we?
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Are we both aliens?
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Are we half alien?
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What's going on here?
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Yeah, you're probably half alien.
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Half alien?
Unknown Speaker (00:27:38.400)
Yeah.
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I'm the one half, and I'm the other half.
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I mean, it's genes.
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It's weird.
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Fair enough.
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Who knows?
Unknown Speaker (00:27:44.720)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:45.720)
Fair enough.
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I'm no scientist.
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All right.
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I'm no health arranger.
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I mean, I get it.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So anyway, this was all just a very desperate attempt at trying to get people to cover this
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in a way that Alex could capitalize on and get some media attention out of.
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It didn't work, and so I think it's very funny to look at this.
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It's like a fail video.
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Yeah.
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Kind of.
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You know?
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It's a propagandist fail video.
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He's talking about Chuck Schumer and his zooming in on the ground beef.
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Yeah, you know, we only really talk about the times propagandists get it right.
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We never really look at a propaganda fail video and kind of analyze what's going on.
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I get it.
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Yeah.
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And there isn't all that much to analyze, but-
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It's a fail.
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Alex does say something else that I think is a little telling.
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He's talking about and complaining about his bankruptcy, and he says, essentially, whenever
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you hear Sandy Hook families, you should think CIA.
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Oh, no.
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Which I think is bad.
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Yeah.
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But just remember this headline from last Friday.
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Sandy Hook families.
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We see that.
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Who's behind it is the CIA, the FBI on record.
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They're just being used.
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I'm so sad for them.
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Sandy Hook families think CIA want to seize Alex Jones' social media accounts.
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The judge just laughed at them.
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So, oh, we don't want to shut you down.
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We just want you off the air and to have your social media so you can't speak anywhere.
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See how that works?
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But separately, we're going to break.
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It's key to have money to win a war, the information war.
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I need your word of mouth.
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I need your prayer.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:20.240)
I need you to share the articles, the videos from Infowars.com, Band.video, Real Alex Jones.
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Real Alex Jones, follow us there on X.
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I need you to also support our great sponsor who got demonized and attacked, my daddy and
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his great warehouse and his great products.
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This same CRO kicked out of the warehouse, my dad helped set up all our stuff and had
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his products over there to use to make 30% on.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:42.599)
All he's getting sued by the Democratic Party, my dad moved all those great products when
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they kicked them out that you can't get anymore to his warehouse in North Austin at DrJonesNaturals.com.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:51.359)
Oh, so Dr. Jones Naturals is just Infowars Health, but you removed it whenever you got
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sued.
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Wow.
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I mean, maybe this is not the kind of thing that is ethical.
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I feel like he's saying this in a way that is maybe a little bit dangerous.
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Are you, I mean, I don't mean to say this lightly, but Stringer Bell may have had some
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of the most important words of our time, which is just, are you taking notes on a criminal
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fucking conspiracy?
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This is exactly what criminals do.
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The law says you can't, in knowing of a bankruptcy and the collections coming, you can't knowingly
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then move stuff as if like the deadline, you can't get me until there's no home base law.
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Man, does it sound like Alex is explaining exactly that?
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It really does kind of sound that way.
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Oh, wow.
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It's his dad.
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It's a totally separate business, totally different.
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Also, I think that if I were one of the family members of the Sandy Hook victims as a plaintiff,
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I think I would be probably very offended by the assertion that I have no agency of
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my own and that everything, whenever you hear anything that I say, you're supposed to hear
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that as the CIA saying this.
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I think that that would probably be something that I would not be thrilled to hear.
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Yeah, it's almost as if that during a time period wherein he thinks it will be advantageous
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for him to apologize to people and appear as though he has the capacity for human compassion,
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he does.
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But then whenever it is no longer advantageous, he does not.
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Almost as if it didn't matter in the first place.
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And he was full of shit.
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Yep.
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Oh, well.
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Oh, well.
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So anyway, we just had the burger saga and that was kind of all I really wanted to talk
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about on this episode.
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That was pretty good.
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It was.
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But it was kind of short.
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It was kind of short.
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And I don't know.
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Do you have anything?
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Maybe.
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What do you got?
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I've got an interview with Mike Wendling.
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What's this?
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From the BBC.
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Holy shit.
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But why do we listen to that?
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Are we doing this?
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Hello, everyone.
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Welcome back to Knowledge Fight.
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This is Jordan.
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Unfortunately, once again, without my co-host, Dan, however, I am joined by BBC reporter
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Mike Wendling.
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Hello.
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Hi, Mike.
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Thank you so much for joining the show.
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You are the author of Day of Reckoning.
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How the far right declared war on democracy, which will be out on May 20th, correct?
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That's right.
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That's right.
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It's great to be here.
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Thanks for having me.
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I'm glad to have you on the show.
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I reached out to you.
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I wanted to talk to you.
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Or no, actually you guys reached out to me, which was very cool, or at least some rep
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at the BBC did.
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Right.
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Was it the publisher or the BBC?
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Something like that.
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Something like that.
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Good.
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They're all the same.
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Yeah.
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They're all the same to me.
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But I read your book and I really, really enjoyed it.
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And it's about, well, I think it's about a lot of things that we'll eventually talk about.
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But the first thing I want to talk about is its title.
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What is the Day of Reckoning?
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Well, you'll have to read to the end to actually find out what the Day of Reckoning is.
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It's a little bit of a narrative trick, I suppose.
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You know about those.
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It basically comes from this idea that I have increasingly noticed the conspiracy world
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creeping into mainstream politics.
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We've all seen it.
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I know you've seen it and your listeners have seen this, but I wanted to sort of describe
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it and get into it a little bit.
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And the election was a very good time to do this because everybody, it's not just exclusive
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to the far right, is putting a lot of chips on this election.
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And people think that the world is going to be vastly different the day after.
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Who knows?
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It might be.
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But particularly for the conspiracy fringes of the far right there, the stakes seem to
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be bigger, almost existential.
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That's kind of the next question that I have because I love a good declaratory title.
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But what exactly do you think we'll be reckoned with?
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Are you talking about reckoning with the far right's war on democracy or the like?
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How exactly is that to be reckoned with?
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So how I would describe it is like this.
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That is more of a description of what they are saying.
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And they is very, very broad.
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I go into various sort of like strands in the book and we can talk about some of those.
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But really, it's like hyping up the sense of panic and fear.
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And the conspiracy bit of it is interesting.
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And perhaps from my perspective, the most interesting bit, how it's like the sort of
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tenor of QAnon, let's say.
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This was very much confined to sort of like online fever dreams just a few years ago.
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And now it's become sort of generalized that we don't even need QAnon anymore.
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We don't even need these Q drops, they've sort of disappeared.
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What we have instead is we have a constant sort of drumbeat of QAnon themes, but like
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more generalized fear and paranoia coming from these groups.
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There's sort of two effects, right?
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One effect is you don't know what people will do.
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There's this phrase stochastic.
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Well, I think we do.
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I think we do exactly.
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They will run into the government buildings and overthrow the government.
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Well, yeah.
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Well, okay.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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No, no.
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I think we've got a pretty good idea of what they're going to do.
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However, however, there is also a balancing paranoia, right?
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And I found it very, very interesting when Donald Trump was getting arrested and showing
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up in court and whatnot.
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You didn't see huge massive protests, even in Florida, the home territory, right?
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What did you have?
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You had Laura Loomer walking around in a t-shirt that referenced Hitler or whatever and a few
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like online streamers or whatever, right?
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And why?
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Why?
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Because if you look at what they're talking about online, it's that they are so afraid.
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They believe their own hype.
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They believe that the feds are in their movements and everywhere and that everything's a trap.
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So that's kind of mitigating, right?
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And I honestly do not think that we're going to see...
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We certainly won't see like a repeat of the Capitol riot because the police will be more
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prepared and they'll be sort of like, don't go to the Capitol because that'll just sort
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of do what we did last time, it won't work.
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It didn't work last time.
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It didn't manage to really stop the transfer of power.
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But there's that sort of like being eaten by your own paranoia, which is really interesting.
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But then it also, as you say, makes it like very unpredictable what might happen.
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And we know that there's people bent on stopping the result of an election.
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Sure.
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Sure.
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I think this is where I want to, and this is quite a part of why I appreciated starting
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exactly where we are, because there's so much in your book that falls into a strange, almost
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middle ground, I would say.
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Not on one side or on the other so much as all of these people, like what you just described.
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When you describe that as paranoia, these people saying, we're not going to go to these...
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We're not going to do this stuff.
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We're not going to show up there because there might be the feds.
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There might be all these people in there.
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When you describe that as paranoia, them being afraid of that, you think you're saying, ah,
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they're overblowing it.
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This is ridiculous.
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But I mean, it would seem kind of silly to me for there not to be feds in these groups
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at this point.
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Right?
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Sure.
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I mean, look, there's informants.
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Sure.
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Sure.
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I'm not trying to like, oh, this is what's really going on here.
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I'm trying to say exactly at what point are we in the...
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The paranoia is overblown, of course, but is also a good warning.
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Like they shouldn't go.
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Isn't it a reasonable thing?
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Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:39:02.719)
Well, I mean, it's just because you're being sold that it could be the feds coming to break
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down your house doesn't mean it's also not good advice to not show up at a Donald Trump
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arrest, right?
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Maybe everybody should just calm down.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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I mean, okay.
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But if you look at sort of how the actual story progresses, right?
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So there were informants within the Oath Keepers, within the Proud Boys, right?
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And some of those informants were members of the group, right?
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And what people just don't sort of like get really when they're in the conspiracy land
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is that doesn't mean they were agents, right?
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They were informants.
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And there's like a really big difference between those two things.
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We know, and you covered it before, the history of law enforcement and far right groups and
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extremist groups is really kind of murky.
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You know what I mean?
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In this country, in other countries, it's not very straightforward.
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But you take that sort of grain of truth and in classic conspiracy methods, you spin it
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into, how come they won't say how many agents were in the crowd that day?
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Sure.
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There must have been hundreds.
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They inspired the riot and it was all a fedsurrection, right?
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That's the point I'm trying to make.
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But see, this is kind of what I'm interested in, that idea of, in terms of all of these
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groups and if you go through your kind of meat, you've kind of analyzed and classified
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a lot of different groups of people.
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You know, you have your QAnon groups over here, you have your Christian nationalist
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groups over here, you have your Proud Boys, you have your, etc., etc., all of these things.
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And I keep asking myself, in regards to Dakota Adams, the son of Stuart Rhodes.
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Son of Stuart Rhodes, yeah.
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The son of Stuart Rhodes is, how is it possible to leave these groups when there's nowhere
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really to go?
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Do you know what I mean?
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Like Dakota, when you talk to him, he's talking about how he's living in the woods and hunting
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for food?
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Yeah, he wasn't quite at that level by the time I spoke to him, but certainly that was
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it.
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He's like a remarkable man.
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He's quite incredible and unusual.
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And perhaps maybe not a great sort of like template, I think, for like somebody who's
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leftist just because it's sort of like, if you want a bootstrap story, this is it.
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Get yourself out of an extremist lifestyle and just try to provide for your family.
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And he was just working really hard.
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When we were there for a week in Montana, we were just snatching whatever FaceTime we
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could get with him because he was going to college at his job, had to take the kids trick
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or treating.
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It was late October.
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He was grafting and he still is grafting.
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And then it's like family dynamics are very unusual too.
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Sure.
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Stuart Rose is a psychopathic lunatic.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Right, exactly.
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His dynamics are different.
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Absolutely.
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I kind of, in a cod psychology way, always think of the way people rebel as teenagers.
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And this is all sorts of movements, not exclusive to extremist movements.
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I mean, didn't you sort of grow up in a, I don't want to say it's a similar environment,
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but in a heavily religious environment.
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Absolutely.
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No, it's 100% similar.
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It is 100% similar.
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Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:43:34.260)
OK, fine.
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I didn't want to, you know.
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Except my parents were, you know, I guess just folk, you know, neither of them had shot
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their eye out, which is huge, huge, I think personally.
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But as far as belief systems go, I would say that there are very little daylight between
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them.
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Yeah, sure.
Unknown Speaker (00:43:58.079)
And you know, so I didn't, but I rebelled against my ethnic upbringing, say, you know
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what I mean?
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Like in a really minor way by, you know, dressing poorly and not going to church.
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Sure, sure, sure.
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You know, so it's hard for somebody like myself, I suppose, to sort of put myself in the shoes
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of somebody like that.
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But you know, he's on the front line out there.
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You know, he says there are people in this community, you know, which he loves because,
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you know, he has friends and he has support and he has his family.
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But it's also kind of alienating to him because they talk about how, you know, we're going
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to go door to door and kill all the Democrats.
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Sure.
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Sure, sure.
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Nonstop violent fantasies that he's surrounded by.
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Just through no fault of his own, a 10-year-old kid, everybody around him is going, let's
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go round up people you know and kill them.
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Exactly.
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And it's to this day, right?
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When you add to that, I suppose, the stress of what Donald Trump has been saying recently,
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which is I'm going to release these people and he hasn't been specific about who he's
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going to release.
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Sure.
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But certainly, you know, people who might have engaged or not rather not engaged in
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violence or not going into the Capitol, you might think that he might be at the top of
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his list, which includes the ringleaders, right?
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Stuart Rhodes' main hope is that Donald becomes president again and then pardons all of them
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and then hires him specifically as the militia of the state and he's allowed to go around
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killing people whenever he wants, probably including his fucking son because he's an
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absolute psychopath.
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So yeah, that's the goal, right?
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Yes.
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Well, you know, your words, I couldn't possibly diagnose the man, but certainly I've tried
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to talk to him.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:08.000)
But yeah, but certainly like his hopes are pinned on Donald Trump being elected, you
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know, but then, you know, we can sit here and talk about this and we can sort of analyze
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what Donald Trump has said in the last month or so, but is he going to follow through with
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it?
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Who knows, you know?
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Sure.
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He, I have a theory, let's put it like this.
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I love theories.
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I love theories.
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Having sort of like gone into the Pizzagate conspiracy, right?
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Conspiracy theory.
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If you look at, if you sort of timeline it against what was happening in politics, national
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politics at the time, what you have is you have a campaign that to the most fervent Trump
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supporters was like, lock her up, right?
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Hillary Clinton needs to go to jail.
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Pizzagate really takes off in the couple of days after he goes on to 60 Minutes, the president-elect
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Trump after he gets elected and says, you know what?
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I don't think that's a real, you know, legitimate thing that, you know, we're not going to lock
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her up.
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That was just campaign.
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And so like you have this energy, right?
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I don't really have any way of proving this.
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It's just an interesting coincidence in my mind, I suppose.
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And suddenly you then you have this focus on these fake pedophiles in a pizza parlor,
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you know, and that gets people riled up.
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So you know, Donald Trump, you know, might say these Capitol rioters, well, you know,
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I've looked at it actually and now I'm not going to do anything about it.
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That doesn't solve the problem because then people will be like, you know, all those people
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who are very, very obsessed about it and there's many people who are obsessed about this and
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call them political prisoners and they've managed to build a movement and they managed
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to sort of get the ear of Donald Trump.
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What do they do then?
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You know, what do they do then when their hope is gone?
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I don't know.
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It's not going to be pretty though.
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I mean, here's my problem with some of that is like, I understand the idea of like, oh,
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where will they go without their hope?
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But it's like, we got fucking hoped and changed our ass in 2008 and then fucked over.
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We're fine.
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We lived through it.
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Now, admittedly at the end, result of all of that was Donald Trump.
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So maybe we didn't, but it's like, nobody started a riot.
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Nobody started a war and maybe these people are more violent, but I don't know if they're
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war capable.
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You know what I mean?
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So wait, what is that paranoia?
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What are they capable of?
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That like dot dot dot ellipses.
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You know what I mean?
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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This is interesting.
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So, I mean, what you're saying is like, progressives put a lot of hope into Obama.
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The whole fucking country put a lot of hope into Obama.
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A lot of people.
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Yeah.
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Who weren't even just, weren't even just progressives.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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Right.
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Right.
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The whole country did.
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You know, I don't, you know, that, that campaign is so nebulous.
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And look, I I'll be honest, I was living in, I was living in Britain for 20 years.
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So obviously I was intensely interested in it, but it's different from actually being
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here.
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As I've found again, the hope meant a lot of different things to a lot of people.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:49.599)
I think maybe this is a little bit different simply because he's saying specific promises.
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You know what I mean?
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Like specifically he's going to free these quote, political prisoners.
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If you don't live up to that particular promise, then there will be health pay to some degree,
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I think.
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Potentially.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:11.280)
So do you think, so you think the main difference here is the specificity of it?
Unknown Speaker (00:50:15.599)
So because Obama promises a kind of generalized, healthcare will be, you know, whatever it's
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kind of shit, you're like, eh, he kind of did it, whatever.
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But Trump said, I'm going to lock her up and they didn't lock her up.
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So people have got to go fuck her up, right?
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So let me put it like that.
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Yeah.
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But you know, but not specifically Hillary Clinton, right?
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But just, you know, just somebody, something that has some sort of vague connection.
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So I need to throw a punch and I'm going to throw it at whomever's nearby.
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If I can't throw it at who needs it.
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Let me, let me put it like this.
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So Obama could have run by saying, you know what, let's go back to the time and the economy
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is complete meltdown.
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We're going to put bankers in jail, right?
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Yeah.
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We are going to put the heads of the major banks in jail because they completely have
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fucked us.
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Right.
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Right.
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And then he didn't.
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Right.
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I think things would have been a little bit different, right?
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And you know, there would have been protests.
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Yeah.
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You know, I'm mad, it's sort of a shock.
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Are we talking?
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I have no idea.
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Well, you know, you only, you know, in your own heart, I mean, I mean more like, are we
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talking?
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Is this an equivalence test right here?
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Are we talking if Obama had made promises, like I'll lock up you know, the bankers and
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then does it.
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Let's actually, let's take Obama.
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I would have said, let's make it Bernie.
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Bernie seems much more reasonable.
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So Bernie comes to you, he says, I'm going to lock them up.
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Then he doesn't.
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All progressives everywhere are disappointed and hopeless.
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Even our champion has nothing.
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Are you saying that then January 6th happens on the left?
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I mean, look, conspiracy theories and political violence are like not limited to any one group,
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right?
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Sure.
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Well, I guess when we say like a Bernie Sanders presidency where he like fails to, this is
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like very, very hypothetical to the, to the what third degree or whatever.
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Oh yeah.
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It's never happened in this country.
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Like I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't rule that out.
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You know, for sure.
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Like it's hard to say specifically what would have happened, but I certainly wouldn't, I
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certainly wouldn't rule that out.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:40.219)
You know, we, obviously like I go in to political violence in the United States and how it comes,
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you know, mostly from the right, not exclusively, but mostly, mostly from the right these days
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in terms of murders, terrorist attacks and whatnot.
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There's historical periods where the opposite has been true.
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You know certainly.
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That's an interesting question.
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What is that?
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Do you mean when the opposite has been true?
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Do you mean like John Brown or the IRA or like,
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Oh, I mean, yeah, any of those things, any of those things, you know, or the weatherman
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or you know.
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Okay.
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Now, let me ask you this question.
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All right.
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Cause I, I wonder about this.
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Do you think, because it is called the day of reckoning, do you have a value judgment
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on the day of reckoning?
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Is it a good or bad thing?
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I don't have a value judgment.
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I use it, I suppose, as a description of the stakes that a lot of people on these fringes
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believe you know, are going to be sort of thrown down around the election.
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Right?
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Well, I mean, but aren't, isn't that like what regular people are talking about?
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Like on CNN and the like.
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No, you got a point.
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You got a point.
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It's like, Hey, at the end of this election, if Donald Trump is president, CNN is probably
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going to be lit on fire.
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You know, like there are people who are very stridently warning and very mainstream spaces.
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It's good that we got to this because I think that this is very interesting.
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And you know, in terms of predictions, I wouldn't really want to offer one because whatever
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we predict here was not going to come true.
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Right?
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It's just like the law of the universe.
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Sure.
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Well, in 2017, I predicted a massive global pandemic that shut everything down.
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Who didn't predict that random action happening?
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Yeah.
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Right.
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Yeah, totally.
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I know what's coming.
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Are you the clairvoyant?
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Maybe.
Unknown Speaker (00:54:54.960)
I know what's coming.
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Tell us.
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Tell us.
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I'm desperate.
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I'm desperate.
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I would, I would, I would love to know.
Unknown Speaker (00:55:03.119)
No.
Unknown Speaker (00:55:04.119)
Yeah, you're right.
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But like, you know what I would like to interrogate, I suppose, you know, because I, the book deals
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with the far right and what they believe.
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It's not so much, you know, what the people on CNN are talking about.
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I always just look for specifics, you know?
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I look for like anecdotes and how this actually sort of plays out on the ground and what people
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in Iowa think about it, you know, to take a random place.
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I am, you know, sometimes I hear this talk and I think, I really don't know what people
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mean by, you know, how it's going to herald the end of democracy or like, you know, what
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do you do to justify, like stopping that if you believe that that's true.
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I'm not sure.
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And I don't, you know, I maybe, you know, again, like I find it hard to visualize, right?
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Like let's say, let's say Trump gets elected and anything can happen.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:16.079)
You know, because people ask me all the time, they're like, particularly people in Britain,
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you know, my friends in London or whatever, they're like, Oh, what's going to happen?
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Tell me, tell me, tell me.
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I was like, why are you, why are you listening to me?
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Number one, I didn't think he was going to get elected in 2016.
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You know, number two, I have no sort of special insight, but I say like, just be prepared
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for anything, right?
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Like that, this could happen.
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That could happen.
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We've got two old men.
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We've got two old men.
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It's not like that's bad advice, but it's also not exactly helpful advice.
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It's not helpful.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:50.280)
I mean, like if you, if you would amend it, that psychologically have a go bag, you know,
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like have ice, you know, be a blanket in your car.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:00.519)
Like I feel like that's useful.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:03.500)
You know I, I suppose, you know, it's very interesting to read what is it project 2025,
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you know, these reports that say, you know, this is how Donald Trump would run his next
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administration.
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Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:17.239)
But then again, a lot of that stuff is, you know, we're going to, you know, root out all
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these civil servant type people, right?
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Sure.
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And that doesn't necessarily to me to be sort of like three alarm fire type territory.
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Right.
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There's courts that will get involved with this kind of stuff.
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There are people who will be, you know, very active from day one, as we saw the last time
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that Donald Trump got elected.
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I was having dinner with a friend earlier this year and it was in, it was in New Haven,
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right?
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In New Haven, Connecticut.
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And so we're sitting there.
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I was actually doing a story on democratic politics, not in New Haven, but nearby.
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And this old guy, I had never, I hadn't seen him for years, was sitting in a pizza place
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and he's, you know, he's a very sort of like left guy, right?
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Sure.
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He's a very left wing guy.
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And we're just talking about politics and, and he, and he says to me, if Trump gets in,
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who's going to stop him?
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And I just looked around the room, you know, I looked around at all the sort of Yale students
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that we were surrounded with in one pizza place in New Haven and the whole, and the
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block surrounding us, you know, the, it's like the heart of liberal America in this,
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you know, blue state, you know, completely blue region.
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And they were like, we'll capitulate in the heartbeat, sir, God bless America.
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I think maybe there may be some opposition to Donald Trump if he becomes president.
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I ask you this question because I recognize, I recognize what you're saying, but the Women's
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March, global, largest protest ever, multiple Supreme Court justices and the end of abortion
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followed.
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So who fucking cares is my question about your, your resistance.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:17.320)
Well, I mean, look that I think that's a completely valid point, right?
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Like what are the, what is the, what is the real, you know, but it's not as if I, I can't,
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I wouldn't necessarily talk to that.
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I suppose I would just say, you know, the idea that there won't be any type of resistance
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is, is crazy.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:36.340)
You could kind of say the same thing about,
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there will be some resistance, that's fine, but who, I mean, there will be some victories
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and that's fine.
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You know, there will be some days where you're like, oh, they didn't do this and that's fine.
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But we, abortion's gone.
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Do you, do you know what I'm saying?
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Like I mean, sure that, but what is the, what is the point of this resistance if it will
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just, I guess maybe slow a giant ice cube ball rolling down, you know what I'm saying?
Unknown Speaker (01:00:08.900)
You know, look, that's again, perfectly valid point.
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Perfectly valid point.
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History doesn't move in a straight line.
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We know that.
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Sure.
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Say the same thing of, for the March of Our Lives.
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I was, I went to cover that in 2018, I believe it was.
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And you have all these kids, you know, you've got hundreds of thousands kids marching through
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Washington and it's just like, you know, a super emotional day.
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And you kind of say like, okay, well, you know what, there's nowhere, we're nowhere
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near sort of a federal assault weapons ban.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:43.519)
You know, there are still mass shootings in America, quite a few of them.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:50.239)
Will that have some difference, will that make some difference at some level?
Unknown Speaker (01:00:54.840)
And certainly, you know, in some localities and states, cities, whatever, have passed
Unknown Speaker (01:01:00.599)
gun laws, you know?
Unknown Speaker (01:01:03.960)
You know, we're not too far from Highland Park where, you know, that has inspired in
Unknown Speaker (01:01:08.840)
the state of Illinois laws that restrict guns.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:12.599)
Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:13.599)
Yes, absolutely.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:14.599)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:15.599)
So, you know, what's the real effect?
Unknown Speaker (01:01:21.280)
It's not zero.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:22.960)
The real effect, let's check back in about 25 years time.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:27.360)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:28.360)
That, absolutely.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:29.360)
No, no.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:30.360)
And I'm not, I'm sorry, apologies if I, I'm just a clownish, apologies if I come off like
Unknown Speaker (01:01:35.159)
that.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:36.159)
I'm just, I'm trying to, I'm trying to, it's a totally valid point.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:38.559)
No, well, I'm not trying to make a point.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:42.059)
I'm trying to like interrogate the words that you've written down, if that makes sense.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:46.920)
I'm not, I'm not trying to say like, oh, this is what we need to do.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:49.880)
I'm trying to say that in, in your book, there is a chapter titled, No Political Solution.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:56.559)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:57.559)
Now, to me, the question then becomes, if there is no political solution, do you mean
Unknown Speaker (01:02:05.360)
there is no solution or do you mean that there is a solution?
Unknown Speaker (01:02:09.880)
It's just not political.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:10.880)
No, no, no.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:12.440)
I think that is, that is a reference to the hardest core of the hardest core, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:02:17.639)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:18.639)
Yeah, that is a reference to, again, like I try to be as descriptive as possible.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:23.840)
It's you know, it's sort of crazy, like in American journalism where you're like, no,
Unknown Speaker (01:02:29.239)
actually I'm paid not to have skin in the game or take a side, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:02:33.239)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:34.239)
So, and it just so happens I, you know, my expertise is in the far right and so I'm looking
Unknown Speaker (01:02:37.599)
at these people and there's all sorts of like interpretations or assumptions or whatever
Unknown Speaker (01:02:42.320)
that come along with that.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:43.880)
But that specific chapter goes into the people who don't believe that there's any political
Unknown Speaker (01:02:47.880)
solution and like they are hell-bent on violence, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:02:52.039)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:53.039)
You're talking about, you know, violent terrorists, domestic extremist groups, you know, which,
Unknown Speaker (01:03:01.860)
you know, like a lot of people in the book I sort of like talk to, even though they're
Unknown Speaker (01:03:08.039)
fringe or extremist groups, these people are very difficult to even find, you know?
Unknown Speaker (01:03:12.920)
Sure, sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:14.280)
These people certainly won't talk to you in any sort of like friendly manner or give any
Unknown Speaker (01:03:18.519)
sort of reliable information.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:20.159)
So, you know, that's my way of summing up what they think, unfortunately.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:29.400)
There's some of the more scary elements, certainly.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:33.079)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:34.079)
Well, I mean, I'm, right.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:37.679)
I mean, and obviously the scariest of them are the like, let's go hot shooting war kind
Unknown Speaker (01:03:45.340)
of thing.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:46.920)
And I recognize that.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:48.559)
But my question upon reading that chapter was, if there is a political solution, right,
Unknown Speaker (01:03:56.239)
which would be like electing Biden or whatever, or, you know, whatever it is you'd like, but
Unknown Speaker (01:04:04.119)
that will be met with violence.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:07.239)
Is it a political solution?
Unknown Speaker (01:04:09.760)
Do you know what I mean?
Unknown Speaker (01:04:10.760)
Like, is the political solution in this regard to elect Trump in order to avoid the violent
Unknown Speaker (01:04:17.599)
response that you might get if you elect Biden?
Unknown Speaker (01:04:20.960)
I suppose a lot of those people would.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:24.280)
Sorry, I think the question, the perspective of their perspective, you know, their political
Unknown Speaker (01:04:35.800)
solution is some sort of Trump, you know, maybe dynasty.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:43.239)
You know, it's hard.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:44.239)
Again, it's nebulous.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:45.239)
But like, certainly that's the first step.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:47.679)
Trump getting reelected.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:49.320)
After that, what happens, you know, they will disagree.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:52.039)
And you know, we saw during the first Trump administration about how these sort of things
Unknown Speaker (01:04:55.719)
fractured because suddenly you're in power and suddenly you actually have to do things
Unknown Speaker (01:04:59.340)
that matter.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:00.340)
And then you're not going to sort of please the alt-right at the same time as you're going
Unknown Speaker (01:05:04.119)
to please the, you know, tax slashing, you know, Club for Growth or whatever.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:14.880)
I guess, you know, when you go to the hardest core of the hardest core, are they going to
Unknown Speaker (01:05:21.639)
be very pleased with Trump?
Unknown Speaker (01:05:26.239)
Well, you know, they're not sort of like down the line for him, I guess.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:31.639)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:32.639)
I mean, I'm talking more specifically about Biden, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:05:37.480)
Like the arguments, as I understand it, from all of these groups, the danger from all of
Unknown Speaker (01:05:43.159)
these groups is essentially the attack on democracy and violence.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:48.960)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:49.960)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:50.960)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:51.960)
Now that is, I mean, essentially an extortionate voting base saying that if you elect the candidate
Unknown Speaker (01:05:57.400)
we don't like, we're going to J6 you, which is what they did.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:02.280)
So they've established that that's what they're going to do.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:05.039)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:06.039)
So then should we not expect that we're being extorted?
Unknown Speaker (01:06:11.760)
Should we not say that a political solution is voting for Trump, whereas a violent solution
Unknown Speaker (01:06:19.639)
is voting for Biden?
Unknown Speaker (01:06:21.099)
In other words, like, hey, vote for Trump and to lessen the impact of violence.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:26.880)
I mean, isn't that kind of the point of these groups?
Unknown Speaker (01:06:31.280)
Isn't that what they are describing?
Unknown Speaker (01:06:32.840)
Isn't that what you are describing them as in this scenario?
Unknown Speaker (01:06:37.360)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:38.920)
I listen, it's not they even themselves, they're not sort of as clear cut.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:45.199)
You know what I mean?
Unknown Speaker (01:06:46.199)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:47.199)
They don't see themselves as violent.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:48.199)
You know, part of the whole J6 narrative thing is that, hey, you know, it was peaceful and
Unknown Speaker (01:06:55.679)
actually the violence was precipitated by the feds.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:58.880)
Oh, it was violent.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:59.880)
No, no.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:00.880)
It was peaceful.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:01.880)
Oh.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:02.880)
And there was a million people there.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:03.880)
Oh.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:04.880)
But only a few people went in the Capitol.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:05.880)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:06.880)
It's just like that, you know, I'm firehose of bullshit, essentially.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:11.880)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:12.880)
Well, I mean, the mob doesn't consider itself violent unless you don't pay up.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:17.599)
Exactly.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:18.599)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:19.599)
Well, I mean, hey, there you go.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:21.239)
That's.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:22.239)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:23.239)
Some of these elements, like, that's probably a good way to think about it.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:26.239)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:27.239)
But, you know, if you think that there's a political solution, you don't start a foundation.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:32.920)
You know, you're not like Mike Lindell.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:34.760)
You don't sort of like advertise on Fox and then develop some sort of, what he has now
Unknown Speaker (01:07:40.719)
is some sort of weird thing where you can all sort of be poll monitors and organizations
Unknown Speaker (01:07:45.940)
or whatever.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:46.940)
You know what I mean?
Unknown Speaker (01:07:47.940)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:48.940)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:49.940)
It's sort of like parallel universe.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:50.940)
Things like True the Vote, you know, and they make these movies and social media output
Unknown Speaker (01:07:53.960)
and stuff.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:54.960)
So, yeah, if you truly think that there's no political solution, you don't do those
Unknown Speaker (01:08:00.159)
things because like you think they are useless.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:04.039)
On the other hand, like in the in the back pocket, there's always sort of a threat of
Unknown Speaker (01:08:07.440)
like, yeah, we're going to do something.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:09.119)
I think, you know, we don't need to hear that much about that right now, because the polls
Unknown Speaker (01:08:18.979)
are looking very good for Donald Trump or a lot better than you might expect.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:22.920)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:23.920)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:24.920)
For me, I expected him.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:26.100)
I expect him to win.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:27.239)
I expected him to win in 2016.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:29.479)
You expect him to win.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:30.479)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:31.479)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:32.479)
Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:33.479)
We buy a lot.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:34.479)
It's not going to be pretty.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:35.479)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:36.479)
So that that has sort of tempered that.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:38.640)
So it's like they haven't, you know, you don't hear sort of overt threats, you know, hey,
Unknown Speaker (01:08:42.039)
we're going to do a big march because we know that this that the fix is in.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:45.600)
You know?
Unknown Speaker (01:08:46.600)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:47.600)
I mean, I'm sure we'll we'll hear some of that, you know, later in the year.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:51.640)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:52.640)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:53.640)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:54.640)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:55.640)
So.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:56.640)
So.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:57.640)
So.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:58.640)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:59.640)
So.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:00.640)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:01.640)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:02.640)
Vote for Donald.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:03.640)
I mean, so we don't.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:04.640)
I'm not I'm certainly not advocating at all, but I mean, it would be the pitch.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:10.039)
It will be the pitch from some of these groups.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:12.079)
You know, it's I mean, they will.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:14.039)
They will make the most reasonable pitch threats.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:17.260)
You know what I mean?
Unknown Speaker (01:09:18.260)
I think they are deliberate and open threats.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:21.760)
Some of them will not be veiled.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:22.880)
No.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:23.880)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:24.880)
I mean, you know.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:25.880)
But yeah, well, I mean, I mean, look, I don't see Trump at the moment saying, you know,
Unknown Speaker (01:09:34.199)
we are going to make sure we get the job done this time, everybody brings guns to the Capitol.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:39.199)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:40.199)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:41.199)
So.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:42.199)
You know, while he's saying they were great patriots, those people in January 6th, they're
Unknown Speaker (01:09:48.399)
great patriots.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:49.399)
Which ones?
Unknown Speaker (01:09:50.399)
I mean, nobody was sort of gets close to sort of asking him that question.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:55.159)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:56.159)
Well, I mean, why?
Unknown Speaker (01:09:58.600)
Why ask him that question?
Unknown Speaker (01:10:00.359)
You and I know everybody knows the answer who needs to know the answer to that question,
Unknown Speaker (01:10:05.319)
right?
Unknown Speaker (01:10:06.319)
Oh, no, I think that question is very good to know the answer.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:10.560)
And I know the answer.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:12.319)
It's not.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:13.319)
No, no, no, no.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:14.319)
I think the question I think is I think it's a very interesting question.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:19.199)
Like who's who are the good people?
Unknown Speaker (01:10:21.119)
Like which ones?
Unknown Speaker (01:10:22.119)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:23.119)
Like which ones?
Unknown Speaker (01:10:24.119)
The Nazis.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:25.119)
Like, no, the people who were at January the 6th, the Nazis.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:31.239)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:32.239)
Those are your words.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:33.239)
Those are the good people.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:34.239)
Those are your words.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:35.239)
That's my that's my.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:36.239)
I see when I when I read alt right in your book, when I read Christian nationalist in
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your book in these context, it bothers me.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:47.399)
It bothers me because alt right.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:50.640)
I think now we have to like looking back on it now.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:54.960)
Alt right doesn't mean what I think it was branded to me.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:59.039)
Now I think we have to accept that alt right means whatever amount of Nazi is socially
Unknown Speaker (01:11:04.920)
acceptable enough for me to function in polite society.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:08.279)
Yeah, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:10.420)
It's a four dimensional title, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:11:13.119)
So no, I get it.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:15.000)
There was people who were having who had fascistic beliefs who were hiding them under the layers
Unknown Speaker (01:11:23.239)
of Internet irony that we called alt right.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:29.760)
And then there were other people who weren't hiding it.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:31.720)
I mean, my last book was about the alt right.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:35.600)
You're going to have to tell me about the the people who weren't hiding it.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:39.319)
Oh, well, I mean, the people who weren't hiding it were, you know, people who were like, you
Unknown Speaker (01:11:44.960)
know, we are Nazis, you know, right.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:48.720)
So the people who are hiding it are the alt right and the people who weren't hiding it
Unknown Speaker (01:11:52.600)
are the alt right who were Nazis.
Unknown Speaker (01:11:55.880)
So they're they're Nazis, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:11:58.880)
So if you know, they're Nazis based upon the words that we use to describe them, why is
Unknown Speaker (01:12:04.800)
it impossible to say they're Nazis?
Unknown Speaker (01:12:08.479)
I don't think that everybody at January 6th was a Nazi, you know.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:14.000)
Ah, now we've got a very interesting question.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:17.039)
You know, if you're on January 6th and you're not a Nazi, why?
Unknown Speaker (01:12:23.680)
I think that there's a whole bunch of reasons why people get swept up into mobs.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:28.159)
You know what I mean?
Unknown Speaker (01:12:29.159)
It's like they were Trump supporters.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:30.800)
Some were Trump supporters.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:31.800)
Some were Proud Boys.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:34.819)
Some people were violent.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:35.819)
Some people were very violent.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:37.399)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:38.399)
There were many people that were very violent.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:41.479)
And they, you know, smashed windows and beat police officers.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:47.640)
There's other people who weren't, you know, there's other people who sort of didn't go
Unknown Speaker (01:12:52.039)
inside.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:53.039)
There's people who went there and then they saw it all kick off and they got their asses
Unknown Speaker (01:12:57.779)
out of there.
Unknown Speaker (01:12:58.779)
You know, I think in some ways, I don't think that actually is like, you may push back on
Unknown Speaker (01:13:07.119)
this.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:08.119)
I'm ready for it.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:09.119)
I love it when people are about to say something to me that they kind of don't want to say.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:15.199)
No, no, I want to say this.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:19.199)
Like calling people Nazis is unhelpful for calling a huge number of people Nazis is unhelpful
Unknown Speaker (01:13:27.239)
in a number of ways.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:30.319)
Because I think a lot of people like do not, are not actually thinking through the politics
Unknown Speaker (01:13:36.819)
of of all this stuff in that level of detail.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:40.640)
And also, you you hear this all the time.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:43.119)
I'm sure you get this all the time.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:44.439)
It's like we do not believe in the tenets of the German National Socialist Party as
Unknown Speaker (01:13:52.199)
it.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:53.199)
I don't get any of that.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:54.199)
I don't get any of that.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:55.199)
And it's just like from 1933 to 1945.
Unknown Speaker (01:13:56.199)
I mean, it's like, no, we're not talking about those Nazis.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:00.319)
No, no, no.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:01.479)
Let me push back on that.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:03.640)
I don't care.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:05.479)
Does that make sense?
Unknown Speaker (01:14:06.579)
Like this is the thing about those arguments that I find so interesting of like the engagement
Unknown Speaker (01:14:13.399)
arguments that I see from that kind of Twitter space that like, you have to call us the alt
Unknown Speaker (01:14:18.960)
right.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:19.960)
Otherwise, we'll all be so mad at you.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:22.239)
Right?
Unknown Speaker (01:14:23.239)
Yeah, no, and it's not the it's not actually those people themselves that you sort of care
Unknown Speaker (01:14:28.840)
about, I mean, or one cares about, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:14:32.880)
It's more just making your argument to a broader audience, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:14:38.760)
I'm interested in that.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:40.359)
What what argument to a broader audience?
Unknown Speaker (01:14:42.840)
Are you talking?
Unknown Speaker (01:14:43.840)
All right.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:44.840)
So are you including the same argument?
Unknown Speaker (01:14:46.479)
Let me let me ask you.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:47.479)
Communicating to a broader audience.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:48.720)
I'm not necessarily making an argument there.
Unknown Speaker (01:14:50.560)
But if I'm if I'm writing a story, if I'm writing a story, I'm like, I don't sort of,
Unknown Speaker (01:14:57.960)
you know, write the Nazis or the people there.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:02.640)
You know what I mean?
Unknown Speaker (01:15:03.640)
We we say, you know, I always try and drill down to the actual sort of specific thing.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:09.119)
Like I and it's impossible to avoid.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:11.960)
It's impossible to say, like, you know, hey, these people are far right.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:17.079)
Oh, we're not far right.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:18.560)
You know, proud boys aren't far right.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:20.000)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:21.000)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:22.000)
You know, we just believe in America.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:23.000)
OK.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:24.000)
All right.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:25.000)
All right.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:26.000)
Let's break it down.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:27.000)
Let's break it down.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:28.000)
Why do we call you far right?
Unknown Speaker (01:15:29.000)
Why do we call you far right because you have extremist views and guns and social relationships
Unknown Speaker (01:15:35.000)
and also you are prepared to back those views up with violence as you know.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:40.039)
You know what I mean?
Unknown Speaker (01:15:41.039)
So, yes, you have to use shorthand sometimes.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:43.920)
But I I'd like sort of, you know, drilling down to the sort of like specifics in terms
Unknown Speaker (01:15:50.840)
of actions and beliefs.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:52.800)
And, you know, and obviously, like a lot of people there, they it's it's, you know, Trump
Unknown Speaker (01:16:01.920)
says the communists and the fascists and, you know, and the globalists or whatever.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:07.239)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:08.239)
I don't know if he uses the term globalist that much, but anyway, it's all in the Democrats,
Unknown Speaker (01:16:14.239)
fascists, communists, like all of them.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:16.359)
Yeah, it's crazy.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:17.760)
It's like all those things you think are the same thing.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:22.520)
And it's just the other side.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:26.960)
I'm not going to, as a member of the press, like play that game or try not to.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:35.319)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:36.319)
But let me let me throw this out at you.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:39.239)
All right.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:40.239)
So you're NBC News or whatever you've drilled down to.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:46.000)
This is why we call you the far right.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:48.640)
Am I NBC or BBC?
Unknown Speaker (01:16:50.000)
Well, I mean, well, yeah, apologies.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:52.199)
I was I thought that's what we were talking about.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:54.720)
That's OK.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:55.720)
I'm not talking about you in specific.
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Just a joke.
Unknown Speaker (01:16:57.920)
OK.
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No, that's that's good.
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Any media outlet.
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I'm not talking about far right mainstream or far left.
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I don't care.
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Any media outlet.
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Right.
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So you are talking to somebody and you are saying to them, here is how I know you are
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far right.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:10.920)
Blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, right now.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:14.800)
You have given me a definition for far right.
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If I say to you, aha, I don't believe blank and blank and blank and you say, well, then,
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sir, that makes you alt right.
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Which is now a socially acceptable form of the exact same thing minus two little things.
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Do you understand what I'm saying?
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Yeah, sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:34.119)
You know, before or did you make them that look, are they responding to that scenario?
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Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:42.079)
Yeah, like they might respond to that scenario, but like, are they arguing in good faith?
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Like no.
Unknown Speaker (01:17:55.279)
Well, well, no, they aren't usually, but usually, no, I honestly look, I get messages sometimes
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I get messages from from people who actually are arguing in good faith.
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Like they're rare, which is disappointing.
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Right.
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Because I am interested.
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And the really annoying thing is that when you think that somebody is arguing in good
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faith and they aren't, they're sort of saying, I'm not a Trump fan, but I would really like
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to know why you think that what he says is a conspiracy theory or whatever.
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And it's nine times out of ten, those people are actually sort of like fully signed up
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to voter fraud is rife and Democrats are eating babies or whatever.
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You know what I mean?
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Sure.
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But, you know, there is one out of ten where actually they are like a curious person and
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they're like, hey, now we have the social media thing.
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And so I can reach out to somebody specifically and they might or might not.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:03.619)
But by your answer, your question, then by by that, if we're going to transpose that
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back to the alt-right thing, you're saying that 90 percent of the alt-right are Nazis.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:14.159)
If that's if that's what your descriptor is, is that one time out of ten, there is somebody
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who is arguing in good faith, then that one time out of ten, there's somebody in the alt-right
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and you are describing them as alt-right when they're Nazis.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:28.520)
I was not what you have just described to me.
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I was just you like to get people to describe other people as Nazis.
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I know I'm I'm not trying to get other people to describe people as Nazis.
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I am trying to read all of these books and see all of the ways that people try not to
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call Nazis Nazis.
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I am not the one trying to impose upon people.
Unknown Speaker (01:19:52.479)
So, yeah, I mean, what I am seeing is a million different words being applied to avoid doing
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something because those people will be pissed off at you.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:01.960)
Oh, I'm not really worried about them.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:04.600)
I'm not I don't think you are.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:07.420)
Let's do more specifically about that alt-right definition of that idea for for you.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:13.340)
You know, that one out of ten is in genuine faith, an alt-right person.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:17.560)
No, that one out of ten.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:19.119)
That's just I don't I don't mean I suppose maybe I wasn't so clear.
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Like when I'm talking about that one out of ten, that's sort of people who are like messaging
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me or like DMing me on Twitter or whatever.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:29.399)
You know, it's like that's not I wouldn't sort of put a name on it.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:33.779)
Like I think, you know, what what sort of happened with the alt-right is like a you
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know, that that was never a term that was very sort of like incredibly well-defined.
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In my last book, I tried to define it as much as possible.
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And in fact, I did the same kind of thing.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:52.359)
I was like, there's all these sort of people.
Unknown Speaker (01:20:55.039)
There's like, you know, these meninist people and then like there's an incel subset or whatever.
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They don't always get along.
Unknown Speaker (01:21:01.840)
You know, they share a lot of beliefs.
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What is their common ground?
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Their common ground is they think that Donald Trump is great and they whatever version or
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flavor of extremism that they're promoting, they think that like he's going to push it.
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So you know, look, again, it's like I don't think it's like super useful.
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You can call Nazis.
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And look, I got people who, you know, I like to talk to people who...
Unknown Speaker (01:21:29.239)
I don't need your permission, sir.
Unknown Speaker (01:21:30.960)
You can call.
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I love it when people give their opinions.
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I'm going to reflect your opinions.
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You can call, you know, somebody, you know, a woke libtard if you want.
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I just like to I prefer to sort of like drill down and say, OK, well, what the hell does
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that actually mean in practice?
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This is the question for me.
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This is what's so interesting to me is the binary there that you have just described
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perfectly.
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Right.
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So on the one hand, we have clearly defined alt-right, right?
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That allows you to say, I inhabit these characteristics and thus I am one of these.
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Right.
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Whereas woke libtard is completely nebulous bullshit that you can throw at anybody.
Unknown Speaker (01:22:17.600)
Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It's an insult.
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So I can hide in alt-right.
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Do you know what I'm saying?
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Because that's clearly defined.
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Although I would probably say that alt-right is, you know, not number one, it quickly became
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a toxic brand to the nation of at large, I would think, particularly after Charlottesville.
Unknown Speaker (01:22:43.560)
And number two, it became a naff brand.
Unknown Speaker (01:22:46.680)
And that is actually actually more powerful, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:22:49.680)
Like, oh, that's that thing from like five years ago, like everybody's sharing Pepe
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memes these days is like a boomer, right?
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And they're, you know, like high on K or whatever, but like, it's just like, you know, you, if
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you look at like the substacks that these people pump out, it's just like, oh my gosh,
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get some new memes or whatever, you know?
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And that is in a weird way is almost like more powerful than any one, any like specifically
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one of these groups could go, because look, I have no doubt that the groups that I look
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at in the book will go the way of all the other ones that, you know, were in my book
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about the alt-right.
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It's like half of them are defunct or, you know, just fizzled out, got arrested.
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It's this sort of cultural stream, I suppose, that's more important.
Unknown Speaker (01:23:50.760)
Yeah, I mean, there's definitely that.
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There's definitely that.
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I wonder, and this is why we talked in advance about how I was definitely going to bring
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up religion in this regard, especially in the way that you've just described these fractured,
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splintered, competitive, and frankly, incompatible beliefs all united around one thing.
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It's hard not to think of religion, that old time religion, whenever you hear, oh no, I'm
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a QAnon guy, and oh, I'm a Catholic, and oh, I'm a blah.
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It's all the same in my estimation.
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Like the way that you've written these characters, all of these like classified groups is that
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if you drill it down, somewhere along the line is magical thinking, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:24:45.840)
Well, I think it's even like maybe more specific.
Unknown Speaker (01:24:49.319)
It's like what unites them is Donald Trump.
Unknown Speaker (01:24:54.119)
Well, I mean, is it Donald Trump the person?
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Absolutely not.
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Donald Trump the person is fucking garbage.
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Everyone kind of functionally believes that Donald Trump the person is garbage, because
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that's how we live our lives.
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You know, people laugh and all that stuff.
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But they believe Trump, the God figure, is way more than Trump, the guy who's going to
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steal $50 million from you.
Unknown Speaker (01:25:20.119)
So yeah, you've put it in a way that I don't necessarily put it, but let me put it like
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this.
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I have a knack for that.
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Trump the man versus Trump the idea, like, yeah, no, it's like the spirit, right?
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Like you've got it.
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Yeah.
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I mean, look, it's very, this isn't in the book because I sort of did this after I wrote
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the book, but I was in Iowa to do some reporting on evangelicals and Trump and my editor suggested
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this to me and I thought, oh gosh, I'm not sure.
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I mean, obviously I'll do it because, you know, boss says, but I find it actually is
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like tremendously fascinating.
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And specifically what was fascinating about it is obviously we know that, you know, when
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Trump came on the scene in 2015, evangelicals were like, hmm, not sure about this guy.
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He's divorced.
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It's a bit of a playboy, not one of us.
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Now they love him.
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And what has happened, what happened since he became president was that number of evangelicals
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has gone up in this country, right?
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And weirdly church attendance keeps declining.
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So you have a lot of evangelicals who don't even go to church.
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And they're actually, their faith is in a relationship with leaders and other community
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members that do not have anything to do with a church or your pastor or whatever, which
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is traditionally how this, what people look to for leadership.
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And instead it's politicians and it's Donald Trump.
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And it's kind of a interesting, and often people, I think like, you know, don't quite
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get it right when they call it a cult or like they call it worship of Trump.
Unknown Speaker (01:27:13.600)
You know, I don't think it's that, I think that's actually kind of belittling to a lot
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of these people.
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But it's certainly like a cultural and religious identity that's all become tied up and it's
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a definite trend like, you know, statistics bear it out and the experts bear it out.
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And you can, I mean, you can see it in these places.
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I'm interested in that question in this regard, all right?
Unknown Speaker (01:27:41.199)
So I'm not allowed to call somebody a Nazi because it's not specific enough.
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Why are they still-
Unknown Speaker (01:27:48.560)
Oh, you can call whoever you want.
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I know, I know.
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I'm just being a prick.
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That was stupid.
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Easy.
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I'm just fucking around.
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No, no, no, no.
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My question is, why exactly are they still called evangelicals?
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Is it because they self-identify as evangelicals?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I mean-
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So-
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From the study it is.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Okay.
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So what is it that makes an evangelical then?
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Just saying you are one?
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I mean, yeah, I suppose.
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I mean, that's a good question.
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Okay.
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I mean, I don't think it's obviously they have faith, right?
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Sure.
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Sure.
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But let me try and-
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You're not like I am a member of the church of Satan or whatever and I'm also an evangelical.
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I'm an atheist evangelical.
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That doesn't make any sense.
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Right.
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That's basic.
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But it doesn't get much more complicated than that.
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And yeah, it is like self-identification.
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Yeah.
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Are you an evangelical?
Unknown Speaker (01:28:50.279)
Well, I think that means that you believe in Jesus.
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I think it gets extremely complicated and part of it, that's another thing that frustrates
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me is that idea of you're calling them an evangelical because they self-identify as
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that.
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But that doesn't mean anything.
Unknown Speaker (01:29:05.279)
No, no.
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I'm not.
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I mean, it doesn't mean anything in terms of what is an evangelical if all it is is
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I self-identify as an evangelical, then exactly how is it possible for these people to make
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large pronunciations about what evangelicals believe if all it is is just people who self-identify
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as whatever on any given day?
Unknown Speaker (01:29:29.520)
Yeah, I mean, I think that is-
Unknown Speaker (01:29:38.560)
For instance, what is the difference between an evangelical and a Christian nationalist
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in your book?
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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So I don't know.
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Would some of these people-
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Okay, so a Christian nationalist would be like, oh, you can be an evangelical and not
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be a Christian nationalist, like clearly.
Unknown Speaker (01:29:59.239)
I'm asking you what the difference between these two things is.
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Not in terms of-
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Yeah, I mean-
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Can you be one and not the other?
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So to put it very-
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I'm asking for specifics, what's the difference between the alt-right and a Nazi?
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What's the difference between an evangelical and a Christian nationalist?
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I mean, to put it very simply, a Christian nationalist believes that the US is a Christian
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nation, right?
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And Christianity should run through the government, right?
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True.
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And the nation should be run on Christian principles according to what they think Christian
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principles are, right?
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Yes.
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So I think that's probably as specific as I can get about it because we can have a very
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long conversation about what Christian principles are and how they should specifically be implemented
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in government if you believe that, right?
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Sure.
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But that's the baseline definition.
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Okay.
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And there's plenty of evangelicals who do not believe that.
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You know what I mean?
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Who-
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I mean, why do you believe that?
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God's realm is God's realm, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:31:13.199)
I suppose I'm asking you because I think this gets back to the same question.
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You say to me, oh, these people don't want a Christian nation.
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And I ask myself, tomorrow there's a Christian nation.
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I don't think these people give a fuck.
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I think they keep going on about their day and they go, oh, it's a good Christian nation
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that we live in.
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That's what being an evangelical is.
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You want a Christian nation because you want everyone to be a Christian.
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Right.
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You can't not have a Christian nation if everyone is a Christian.
Unknown Speaker (01:31:41.239)
Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I see.
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I mean, I suppose that, you know, an evangelical who is not a Christian nationalist might be
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completely, you're going to hit me for this, apolitical.
Unknown Speaker (01:32:03.520)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:32:04.520)
Sorry.
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Sorry.
Unknown Speaker (01:32:06.520)
Apologies.
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Again, this is just a weird thing that happens now where people are like, I don't want to
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say this to Jordan.
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Hey, you know, it's very, look, I get what you're saying.
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Like, you know-
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I'm not saying anything-
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You're not being-
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I'm genuinely interested in your book and how these definitions are functioning within
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the context of your book.
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Does that make sense to you?
Unknown Speaker (01:32:31.319)
Oh, yeah.
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I'm not trying to put forth anything.
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I'm interested in the connections between all of these different chapters because in
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the center of your book are like very delineated chapters with very specific kind of groupings.
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Oh, yeah.
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And I'm interested in how these are the same and how they're different and what it is that
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makes them different, that makes them specific.
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Because if they are different and they are specific, then they each require a specific
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and different response.
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Whereas if they're all the same-
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I get it.
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Then they all deserve one fucking response, don't they?
Unknown Speaker (01:33:06.359)
What response is that?
Unknown Speaker (01:33:08.079)
I mean, that's my question to you.
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If there's no political solution, my man, it's in your book.
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There is.
Unknown Speaker (01:33:16.760)
Yeah, so look, I mean, obviously these groups, there's a tremendous amount of overlap between
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these groups.
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You know what I mean?
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Totally.
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I'm trying to sort of make it sort of make sense in a way.
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Otherwise it could just be like in 50,000 words of stream of consciousness.
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What I always like to say, I suppose, and this is going to be like a little bit wishy
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washy, but there's a tremendous amount of overlap, but also there's like tremendous
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infighting.
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And the infighting happens on the level sometimes of like theory and ideology, but like more
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often on personalities, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:33:55.279)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:33:56.279)
It's vibes.
Unknown Speaker (01:33:57.279)
It's big vibe energy, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:33:58.279)
Yeah, exactly.
Unknown Speaker (01:33:59.279)
You have Christian nationalists and some of them won't talk to other Christian nationalists
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because they snubbed them at a party or like whatever, got involved with their husbands
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or wives or whatever.
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Who are we to judge?
Unknown Speaker (01:34:11.500)
Oh, it's happened plenty of times.
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Who are we to judge?
Unknown Speaker (01:34:13.500)
Hey, I'm fine.
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Take a look at some of the stuff that's happening in Florida right now.
Unknown Speaker (01:34:19.840)
I wouldn't say any more than that.
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But look, I mean, yeah, you're good to demand definitions.
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Like I say, I love definitions.
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I think you can go quite far in trying to, you know, I think maybe like isn't this a
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problem too?
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Like if I sort of say, you know, a Christian nationalist believes one through 10 and then
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Michael Flynn says, I don't believe in number nine, does that not make him a Christian nationalist?
Unknown Speaker (01:34:55.979)
I don't think so.
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I think Flynn is a Christian nationalist and he might change a few things about what he
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believes tomorrow, but he probably will still be a Christian nationalist tomorrow.
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He also has sworn, you know, an oath to QAnon in the past.
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Right.
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So he's also involved in that movement.
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Would he sort of maybe think twice about that now?
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Perhaps.
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I don't know.
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Love to talk to him.
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He doesn't respond to my interview requests.
Unknown Speaker (01:35:25.439)
So look, I think we can be specific about some of these categories.
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I think they are definitely interrelated.
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There's a lot of detail in the weeds.
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Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker (01:35:37.659)
I mean, that's kind of my, that's where I'm getting very specific because when you describe
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to me, Michael Flynn, Christian nationalist, that's one through 10, Michael Flynn says,
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I'm not number nine.
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So that means I'm not a Christian nationalist.
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Would you call him that in print?
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Would I call him that in print?
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If I was doing a story on Christian nationalist?
Unknown Speaker (01:36:08.779)
Yeah, sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:09.779)
Okay.
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Yeah.
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Why?
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Why?
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If he doesn't self identify as a Christian nationalist.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:17.380)
Oh, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:18.380)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:19.380)
Yeah, sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:20.380)
So like, no, that's a good point.
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Like sometimes people self identify as something and they might not be that thing.
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Sometimes people self identify something and we might agree with them.
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I guess it's just like, it's getting very meta, isn't it?
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Why?
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Because I will talk to somebody who says, hey, I've studied Christian nationalism for
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the last 10 years and this is the definition.
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I'll take that definition.
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That's a good guy sounds like he knows what he's talking about.
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And by my judgment and by my sort of expert sources, I suppose, like he will fit that
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definition.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:05.739)
Okay.
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Yeah.
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Like, it's what I don't want to sort of, I don't want to sort of minimize it.
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I don't want to minimize it.
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I don't want to minimize it because you know where I'm going to come with that after that.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:17.260)
Yeah, probably back to the Nazi thing.
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Look, I mean, the Proud Boys is a good example of this.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:29.180)
You know, Proud Boys is an excellent example.
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It's like, you know, they're always upset about the far right label, you know.
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Gavin McInnes and Jason Lee Van Dyke made a Proud Boys, a film about the Proud Boys
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in 2018, 2019.
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Before we had even shot a second of footage, right?
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They said, we're going to sue you.
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Do not call us far right.
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We are patriotic.
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What is it?
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Fraternal organization is what they've used.
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Whatever you want to call themselves.
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And it's like, sorry, no, for the reasons that I've just outlined.
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You know what I mean?
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Like, you're a far right, fringe extremist organization, like any story.
Unknown Speaker (01:38:23.659)
And maybe that's a very clear example.
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Other examples are not going to be so clear, which is why I'm hedging a bit about the thousands
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of people who are out there January the 6th, you know, every single one.
Unknown Speaker (01:38:37.579)
And then, you know, again, it's the whole sort of, you see the parallel in the conspiracy
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world where it's like, you know, if you are wrong about one thing, they only need to be
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right like most of the time, right?
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Like mainstream journalists, commentators, experts, or whatever, if they're wrong once,
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then in the eyes of those people, like, they're just like, wail away at it.
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You know what I mean?
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I think it's more than just PR, though.
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I think it's more just like, hey, let's have some sort of like, this dedication to the
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truth and, you know, objectivity in like a very broad sense, right?
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And that's why I'm not going to be like, hey, all those people are Nazis.
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You know, I'm not, I don't even, you know, I think that maybe some of those people didn't
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even know what they were up to.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:35.819)
You know?
Unknown Speaker (01:39:36.819)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:37.819)
So I'm more drunk.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:38.819)
All right.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:39.819)
Tell me more about that.
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Are you less responsible for your actions if you're drunk?
Unknown Speaker (01:39:45.060)
Yeah, it depends legally, I'm not a judge.
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Are you less racist if you were drunk at the time?
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Oh, yeah.
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No.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:55.979)
No, I'm not saying that as an excuse, but I'm saying it's like, you know, it's like,
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you know, there's debate over language.
Unknown Speaker (01:40:07.899)
Okay.
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So let me put it like this.
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Were some people sort of like looking to overthrow the government?
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Yes.
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Were some people not, possibly.
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Was it a riot?
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Definitely.
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Right.
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And this is the alt-right thing.
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It's like, yes.
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Are some of you alt-right people Nazis?
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Yes.
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Are all of you fascist?
Unknown Speaker (01:40:35.659)
Well, yeah, there's probably that, you know, we're going back to the number here.
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I don't want to put a number on it, but say it's like 10%.
Unknown Speaker (01:40:46.340)
You know, I don't necessarily want to get into like semantics about how many of these
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people are, you know?
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Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:40:54.539)
Well, that's, that's an interesting, that's an interesting point because what you're talking
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about though, is like intent.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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Like what, what was in these people's hearts at the time?
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Yeah.
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Right?
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Absolutely.
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Now I ask you this question.
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It's very interesting.
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Who fucking cares?
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If the results are the same?
Unknown Speaker (01:41:15.699)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:41:16.699)
I mean, you know.
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Do you need to be a fascist at January 6th if Trump wins and becomes dictator for life?
Unknown Speaker (01:41:27.220)
Yeah.
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Do I care?
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Do I care if you in like, in your heart of hearts, you were like, this is a good thing.
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Do I care?
Unknown Speaker (01:41:34.579)
If it, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:41:35.579)
If it works, then like, yeah, you, you were, you were wrapped up in that.
Unknown Speaker (01:41:39.420)
And well, certainly like legally, like that's not always the case, you know, it's like,
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you know, judges were not, judges were not sort of saying.
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You know what I'm saying?
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It's what I'm, I'm so interested in your book is why, is why I keep doing this.
Unknown Speaker (01:41:59.220)
Um, sorry, I don't, I don't quite get the question.
Unknown Speaker (01:42:03.939)
Uh, I, I, I'm, what I'm, what I'm trying to say is in terms of the, in terms of the differences
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between these things, in terms of Michael Flynn, I will call him a Christian nationalist
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even if he tells me he's not, because in, I know his intent is bad.
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I know I can discern whose intent is fucking bad.
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Why are you allowing these people to dictate, you know what I'm saying?
Unknown Speaker (01:42:33.939)
I don't look, look into the hearts of people and have some sort of, you know.
Unknown Speaker (01:42:39.579)
Aren't you?
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Aren't you looking into the hearts of the J6 people and saying they're not fascists
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because they said so, because I believe them when they said so, because they wrote it down
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in court?
Unknown Speaker (01:42:51.539)
No, I suppose I've just, you know, I've seen, um, I've looked at a lot of the cases, right?
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Okay.
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And, uh, and I've talked to a number of the people, right, um, so that's why I come up
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with that.
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You know what I mean?
Unknown Speaker (01:43:17.300)
Okay.
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It's like, like also, yes, you judge somebody by their actions, you know, are some people
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lying to you, to me when they're talking about that?
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Possibly.
Unknown Speaker (01:43:28.659)
Yeah.
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Okay.
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Are they, are they minimizing or are they changing their?
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How do I know?
Unknown Speaker (01:43:34.140)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:43:35.140)
Um, how do I know if, if somebody is, how do I know to evaluate?
Unknown Speaker (01:43:40.460)
It's look, it's very, very like specific, you know what I mean?
Unknown Speaker (01:43:44.340)
Like it's by case, it's a case by case basis.
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You asked me this before, uh, before we came on about how, how I know, like, how do I know
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if, um, the wife of Stuart Rhodes or Alex Jones, uh, is accurately describing what,
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uh, their role was in those organizations, like in Oath Keepers or Info Wars.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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And there's, okay.
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So look, it's, it's pretty, I don't want to call it simple, but straightforward.
Unknown Speaker (01:44:21.020)
If there's specific sort of things, facts, like, hey, uh, you know, I met him on this
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date, blah, blah, blah.
Unknown Speaker (01:44:28.140)
All right.
Unknown Speaker (01:44:29.140)
Well, let's check that, you know, things that are checkable.
Unknown Speaker (01:44:32.319)
When people have memories about things, and this is true in a completely different context
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for January the 6th, you know?
Unknown Speaker (01:44:40.100)
Um, so, you know, one, one January the 6th, uh, guy was like, you know what, I just walked
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in there.
Unknown Speaker (01:44:47.659)
You know, I, I, I was just protesting.
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I walked in, I was in there for like 10 minutes.
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Now I can check that he was in there for 10 minutes.
Unknown Speaker (01:44:55.260)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:44:56.260)
Um, his, his, his stated intent, should we take that with a grain of salt?
Unknown Speaker (01:45:00.579)
Yeah, possibly.
Unknown Speaker (01:45:02.319)
We can set that against, you know, what does the judge in the case say?
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Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:45:08.699)
Um, and in that particular case, the judge says, well, you're sorry, you're going to
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prison.
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You were part of a rebellion against the United States.
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Right.
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Um, obstructing the, an official proceeding.
Unknown Speaker (01:45:24.939)
That's that, um, like you can't really, you can't really put it, you can't really sort
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of pin down, um, to, to that sort of degree of specificity.
Unknown Speaker (01:45:39.739)
Sure.
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If you see what I mean.
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Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:45:42.739)
You know, I mean, you're saying that the results could be the same, and again, that's like
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a, a completely, in fact, that is like the actual danger, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:45:52.460)
It's not that a majority of the population is going to, uh, believe that voter fraud
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is just going to completely wipe out, uh, the election, and then they're going to march
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on Washington and burn down the white house and then Donald Trump will be dictator for
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life or whatever.
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Right.
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Right.
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Like that doesn't happen, but that, but that does happen when a lot of people who are in
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the area just sort of go along with it.
Unknown Speaker (01:46:19.840)
You know?
Unknown Speaker (01:46:20.840)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:46:21.840)
Um, so I think that that raises, actually your question raises kind of like a reasonable.
Unknown Speaker (01:46:29.380)
That's the idea though, isn't it?
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The reasonable people will just go along with it.
Unknown Speaker (01:46:33.920)
Is that when you tell me about Christian nationalists being different from evangelicals right now,
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Christian nationalists are ascendant, which means evangelicals will fly right alongside
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them.
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Christian nationalists are below the earth wondering about how to get out from underneath
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their goblin holes.
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Evangelicals are wonderful and lovely people.
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I spoke to evangelicals, uh, I spoke to a number of them, um, and they did not all,
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um, have, you know, uh, love for Donald Trump, you know, and a lot of them, you know, not
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a lot of them, but like certainly several of them said, you know, w w what he has done
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in office is despicable and, you know, we hate January the sixth and whatnot.
Unknown Speaker (01:47:27.779)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:47:28.779)
Um, you know, right now this is what I'm kind of, I'm in kind of interested in, uh, in regards
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to, uh, kind of this, this whole thing as a whole is the idea of what I, what I think
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is called a, or what I'm calling an accurate falsehood, something that is totally accurate
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and yet is 100% false.
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Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:47:53.300)
Um, so there's one thing that, uh, Kelly Jones said that is why this kind of sparked in my
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mind and why I haven't been able to, to let go little kind of definition kinds of things
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the whole time is Kelly said, we started at JFK assassination theories and then wound
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up at January.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Whatever it is.
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Yeah.
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And that is an accurate statement.
Unknown Speaker (01:48:17.460)
That is an accurate statement that could be said, right.
Unknown Speaker (01:48:20.819)
Uh, and the way it is said though in your book is it tells me, ah, here is the story
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of innocence lost.
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It is a narrative being created out of that by itself.
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Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:48:34.819)
Okay.
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They started at Waco to January six.
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It is a lateral move.
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Do you know what I'm saying?
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Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:48:44.539)
Yeah.
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Yeah.
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A fall from grace.
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This is so, so to me, whenever I keep hearing people talk about the state of the United
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States, et cetera, et cetera, I, I 100% am delighted that people thought we were good,
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but this is a lateral move from, uh, the birth of the country.
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Wow.
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You've gone back, right?
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Not just to Waco, but to, yes, the birth of the country.
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I'm just, I'm just saying what we're experiencing is not as, as, uh, uh, earth shatteringly
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new.
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I, I, I apologize.
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I mean, political, political violence is like, you know, cut through American history.
Unknown Speaker (01:49:27.180)
I don't think like anybody can deny that.
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Right.
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Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:49:31.420)
Um, you know, leaving, leaving aside all the other violence that is not explicitly
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political.
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Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:49:38.579)
It's a very violent country.
Unknown Speaker (01:49:40.020)
On the other hand, uh, you know, I also do tend to take like a, a global view of these
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things working for international news organization.
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I used to, you know, not concentrate so much on the United States.
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I went to all sorts of countries to make radio documentaries and, um, you know, I, like,
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I think that a lot of these people, like particularly when, um, like, I, it particularly sort of
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gets me when, you know, you hear all these sort of like, um, the massive amount of stuff
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about so-called censorship, right.
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Which is basically just people getting like shadow banned on Twitter or whatever.
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I'm not saying that's a good thing.
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There's like arguments for it, I guess, or whatever it's debatable, but they have no
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idea what it's like in Uganda, you know, or like, you know, the democratic Republic Congo
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where like, you know, Oh, Oh yeah, you, you think that you're gonna get thrown in jail
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for a tweet or whatever.
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Like let's go to some, you know, countries where let's go to India where they just like
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shut the internet down.
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They're just like, Hey, in this state, we're just going to, we're just going to shut the
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internet down today.
Unknown Speaker (01:50:49.420)
That's fine.
Unknown Speaker (01:50:50.420)
Um, okay, you, you want some censorship.
Unknown Speaker (01:50:52.739)
We can show you some censorship.
Unknown Speaker (01:50:53.739)
And again, I'm not sort of trying to like minimize things to say that they're not like,
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you know, they might not be doing something wrong or whatever, but you need to get some
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perspective.
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Some of these people.
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Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:51:07.460)
Well, I mean, I mean, that's, that's an interesting, that's an interesting point.
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Is this, is this a four dimensional problem?
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If you will, is this a situation where you say, it's a good thing.
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We are not like India, uh, in so far as our internet can be shut down, but isn't that
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also saying, so we better act like absolute lunatics to make sure we don't turn into India,
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otherwise we're fucked.
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You know, you know what I'm saying?
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This w we, we live in a very strange country on its own terms, you know, that's it.
Unknown Speaker (01:51:40.899)
I like that.
Unknown Speaker (01:51:41.899)
That is a good point.
Unknown Speaker (01:51:43.420)
You know, you can say, um, well, okay.
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Like if you look about, if you, you know, we're obviously being roiled about debates
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over antisemitism and the middle Eastern conflicts and, you know, anti-Muslim sentiment and whatever.
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Um, I always find it kind of surprising how surprised Americans are when this stuff sort
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of comes home.
Unknown Speaker (01:52:10.039)
Let me put it like that, you know, um, uh, they hate us for our freedoms.
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Why would I, why would they, you know, we're not surprised it comes home.
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It's because of our freedoms, man.
Unknown Speaker (01:52:24.819)
Uh, yeah, well, I mean, I think, okay, so I, I, one of the more difficult stories I
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covered was the, um, the murder of a small boy, uh, at, well, you, you're, you're in
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the neighborhood, so you must have remembered, uh, Plainfield, Illinois, um, I think it happened
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in October.
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Um, you know, just a few weeks after, um, Hamas and Israel kicked off.
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So, um, you know, I, I went to the boy's funeral, it was a completely gut wrenching experience.
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You know, of course, you know, there's thousands of people in Gaza who are being killed right
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now.
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Right.
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And this is just, you know, one child, right.
Unknown Speaker (01:53:18.859)
Um, but there's kind of an assumption, I suppose that like, Hey, you know, this should be like
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safe or neutral territory, or this kind of stuff shouldn't happen here.
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Um, even from people, many of whom who were in that crowd in the funeral who were immigrants,
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you know, from, from Gaza, from the West Bank or whatever, um, it's in some ways it's sort
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of like, you think, well, that's hopeful and I'm really glad that you think that you found
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safety.
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And obviously you didn't because, um, you have this guy who allegedly murdered this
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small child.
Unknown Speaker (01:54:01.020)
Um, I mean, the one thing that like, I guess, like, you know, not living here for so long
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teaches you is that like, you got to take every country on its own terms, you know,
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like, often when I look at American media, I don't really want to sort of give too many,
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too many people a kicking here, but I just feel like some of the debates just, just sort
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of lack that perspective, you know, hopefully we can add to that.
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With this one?
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Good God, no.
Unknown Speaker (01:54:35.680)
I do nothing.
Unknown Speaker (01:54:36.680)
Maybe I'm a subtraction only.
Unknown Speaker (01:54:37.680)
Yes, I know.
Unknown Speaker (01:54:38.680)
I'm still a little naive.
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What can I say?
Unknown Speaker (01:54:40.680)
I mean, it's not naivete so much as like this, this is probably how things should work and
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it might be how they do.
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It's possible.
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Oh, I don't know.
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I don't know what to tell you.
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I'm really grateful for this.
Unknown Speaker (01:55:10.979)
This has been an absolute delight of a conversation.
Unknown Speaker (01:55:13.260)
I don't know if you agree, but I've enjoyed every moment of it.
Unknown Speaker (01:55:15.779)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:55:16.779)
You know, look, before you, like I said, you sent me some questions and they were challenging
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questions and so, you know, I was ready.
Unknown Speaker (01:55:28.779)
I might not seem like I was ready, but I definitely enjoyed it.
Unknown Speaker (01:55:33.520)
I definitely enjoyed it because, you know, often like, let me put it like this.
Unknown Speaker (01:55:37.819)
We got to talk about good faith actors and bad faith actors, but it's like, you know,
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your questions come from a good faith perspective.
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And hopefully like when I talk to people, like it comes from a good faith perspective.
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It's like I actually want to sort of like find out about this stuff and I have to evaluate
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them and like make my own judgments or whatever.
Unknown Speaker (01:55:55.960)
You know, everybody will make their own judgments and sort of ask questions.
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There we go.
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And then you-
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Yeah, I was trying to make clear again, I am very curious.
Unknown Speaker (01:56:09.659)
So all I'm doing is trying to get to what it is that you believe and think.
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That's what I'm curious.
Unknown Speaker (01:56:14.079)
Yeah.
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Anything, if I throw in my old nonsense, I don't care, I can throw that into the garbage.
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I don't give a shit.
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That's meaningless.
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What's important is that you wrote a book and what matters about it.
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And that book is Day of Reckoning, how the far right declared war on democracy.
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It is out May 20th.
Unknown Speaker (01:56:35.819)
Mike Wendling, thank you so much for joining me.
Unknown Speaker (01:56:38.579)
Thank you for having me.
Unknown Speaker (01:56:39.760)
It's been very interesting.
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Very interesting.
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Wonderful.
Unknown Speaker (01:56:42.760)
Thank you very much.
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Andy in Kansas.
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You're on the air.
Unknown Speaker (01:56:46.300)
Thanks for holding.
Unknown Speaker (01:56:47.300)
Hello, Alex.
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I'm a first time caller.
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I'm a huge fan.
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I love your work.
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I love you.
