Transcript/898: Tucker, The Man And His Twitter- Episode 6

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I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys saying, we are the bad guys.

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Knowledge Fight.

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Dan and George.

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Knowledge Fight.

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Red alert, red alert, red alert.

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Need money.

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Red alert.

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Red alert.

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Andy, Andy, Andy.

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Stop it.

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Andy and Chans, Andy and Chanz.

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It's time to pray.

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Andy and Chanz.

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You're on the air.

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Thanks for holding us.

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Hello, Alex.

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I'm a first-time caller at my huge fan, I love your word.

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Knowledge Fight.

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Knowledge Fight.

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I love you.

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Hey everybody!

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Welcome back to Now That's Right, I'm Dan.

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I'm Jordan.

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We're a couple dudes.

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I'd like to sit around, worship at the altar of Selene, and talk a little bit about Alex

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Jones.

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Oh, indeed we are.

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Dan.

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Jordan.

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Dan!

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Jordan.

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I have a quick question for you today.

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What's up?

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What's your bright spot?

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I think our bright spot today is the same.

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I think so as well.

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It is your hypingness.

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I have hyped, and now that hype shall come to fruition.

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Right.

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So you did the work on this, so I'm going to let you spill it out to the people.

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As is our want, every now and again I do a slight bit.

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Well, it's an awesome delegation of labor in many aspects.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So we are going to do live shows.

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What?

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We're going on tour-ish.

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Many people have asked.

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They have.

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Why did you go to Scotland and London before doing any shows in the U.S.?

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Well, except for Milwaukee.

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Yeah, we did Milwaukee.

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Yeah, we did Milwaukee.

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Because we are who we are.

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And I thought it would be funny, and I thought you'd get your ass kicked in Scotland.

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It was funny.

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And I did not.

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It was a perfect plan that the Scots fucked up by not beating you up.

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It was the ultimate time for my comeuppance, but now that we are going to Boston, I think

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there are plenty of people who could kick my ass there.

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That is true.

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So we're going to talk a little bit about the tour dates.

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Absolutely.

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Tickets will be available on Wednesday.

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Yep, we'll have the links.

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We'll post the links to all the tickets.

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You betcha.

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But yeah, so we're going to start in Boston.

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Let's go through...

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And this to me is actually, I mentioned this to you, this is probably an emotional homecoming

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for me.

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I was really excited for this one, yeah.

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If you ever thought there's a chance I might cry on stage, this Boston show is the possible

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time it's going to happen.

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Well, there it is.

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Because it's in Boston, which I grew up in.

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I grew up in Boston and Cambridge for a number of years before we moved to Hawaii.

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And we're performing at the Middle East.

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We're performing at the Mid-East, their Sonja venue.

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This is the venue where the Boston's made their live album.

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This is where Mr. Liff made his live album.

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Many other people who are...

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But those two are big, huge things that I was into when I was younger, and the idea

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of it's so cool, live from the Middle East.

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And you're going to have Knowledge Fight live from the Middle East.

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It is kind of amazing to think about.

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It really is sometimes, when I stop and I go, you know, 15 years ago, I was like, man,

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I hope I'm on stage with a crowd of people.

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And then...

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It is!

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If you told me 15 years ago, listening to Mr. Liff's live album from the Middle East,

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one day you will play at the same venue.

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Never would have imagined.

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So we'll be doing that May 14th.

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Then on the 16th of May, all of this will be in May, we will be at the Rams Head in

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Baltimore.

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Right.

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The 17th will be at the Little Field in New York City.

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New York City?

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I don't know why, but I cannot not do that.

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Sure.

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Because you love pastes picante sauce.

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I do, I do.

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And then on the 19th, we'll be at the Underground Arts in Philly.

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Philly.

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Philly.

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Philly, where you at?

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Then we're doing...

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I have one goal in this Philly show.

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Yes.

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Which is, I would like to find Ed from the Real World Road Rules Challenge.

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I would like to as well.

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Yes.

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Somewhere in Philly, the smiley weirdo.

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Oh man, when he left and they had James or somebody else explain the challenge, not as

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fun.

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Ed fucking nailed it and loved it.

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Yeah, he brought life.

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Every time he was like, all right, so what we gotta do is we gotta put the thing together

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with the other thing and then everybody puts it all in the face.

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What joy.

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Yeah, amazing.

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Then...

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Some people think of Philly and they think of hostile audiences and Bill Burr's set and

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throwing...

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Batteries.

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Batteries.

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I think of Ed.

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And Santa Claus, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Then on the 21st, we're switching up, we're headed to Toronto.

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What?

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International.

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Yeah, yeah, for some reason.

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Well, I think that we have some Canadian listeners and I would have liked to do a couple more

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dates in Canada, but travel-wise, it's kind of a logistical nightmare, but doing one there

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is nice because then they don't have to cross the border if there are people who are in

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Toronto or around there.

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We wanted to accommodate as best we could.

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Yeah, it's gonna be...

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And then homecoming.

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And then finally, we will be coming back and mainly because people just assumed we wouldn't

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do it.

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We're going back to the X-ray arcade in Milwaukee.

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That's right.

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Closing up the tour in Milwaukee, going back to the seat of the crime.

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It is a delight.

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Yeah, people at the X-ray arcade were so great, so wonderful, and the shows were so great

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that I just thought, fuck it.

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What a great...

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So the only other thing about this is people are pretty convinced that we are very popular.

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I don't know that for sure.

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And then the problem is our last shows have all sold out, right?

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So I scaled up in terms of size of venue.

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That might be a mistake.

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The problem that I have is, here's what I'd like, here's what I'd like.

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I would like for every one of these to be like, oh, we were five tickets away from a

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sell out.

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Because then I can be like, that is the exact size of the venue we need to plan for.

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We need to do that whole thing.

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I don't want them to sell out.

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And then it's like only five people would have made it.

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Because then the next time I'm like, fuck the venue.

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You know what I'm saying?

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It is true that when things sell out really fast, it's almost impossible to gauge the

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upper limits of how many people might come to something.

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Right, right, right.

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Yeah, that's a scary proposition.

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I don't necessarily- I'm nervous.

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It's always a nerve-wracking affair, especially because we just do this ourselves.

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And- Yep, yeah.

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It is like, listen, we don't need to sell out everything.

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We don't need to make a ton of- Speak for yourself.

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I don't need to make a ton of money, but I do need that room filled.

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I would like to sell out.

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But mainly, I just don't want to feel like it was dumb.

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I don't want to feel embarrassed about that like, oh, we're 80% full.

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That's great.

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That's still a good show.

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Sure.

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You know?

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But I don't want to be like, oh, well, we should have gone half the size.

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That's not good.

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Because then we got to reschedule to a half the size venue.

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Which wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

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And there could be worse things.

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I'm excited to see what the turnout and roundabout and whatabout.

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Yeah.

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I think it's going to be good.

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I'm excited.

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I think everybody's going to be overjoyed, and I think it's going to be great.

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So look for tickets on Wednesday, but get hyped now.

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So the hype has been paid off.

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We've got double hype.

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We got one hype from last week.

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We got the announced hype from this week, and then Wednesday we're going to have the

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sales hype.

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We are basically marketing experts.

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We were born to hype.

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So Jordan, today, as hyped, we are going to talk about the Tucker Carlson, Vladimir Putin

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interview.

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That's right.

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That's right.

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And I got to say.

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What?

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I think I fucked up.

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Why is that?

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Well, I didn't account for things going bad.

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Do you mean the interview went bad?

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Yeah, I would say so.

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I'm sorry?

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Not bad in the fun way where Putin kills Tucker.

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Sure, sure.

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Well, that would be pretty fun.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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But it doesn't go well.

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Yeah.

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Like, I was assuming they'd have their shit together.

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Sure.

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And there would be a coherent presentation that worked for both of their interests.

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Wouldn't that be the idea, right?

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And it really doesn't.

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I'm sorry.

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Did Putin go in there and wing it?

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No.

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Oh, okay.

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So he was going in there fully prepared.

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I think he was prepared, but I think he was prepared differently.

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He was prepared for not Tucker Carlson.

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I think that they were across purposes a little bit.

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Okay.

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But it has a dissonance to it.

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There's a propaganda line that Tucker is working towards.

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Right.

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And then there's a propaganda line that Putin is putting forth.

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Right.

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And they're not at odds with each other necessarily.

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They're parallel.

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They're incompatible.

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That's fascinating.

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Not incompatible in a precluding way.

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Sure, sure.

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They don't mix.

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Right, right, right, right.

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And it leads to an interview that is mostly Putin holding court and saying nonsense.

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That sounds right.

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And insulting Tucker at various points.

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That's great.

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Yeah.

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That makes me feel great.

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And then Tucker not really doing much of anything until the end where things take a drastic

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tonal shift.

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What?

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Yeah.

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How do you interview fucking Hitler and drop the ball?

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Like in either direction.

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Do you know what I mean?

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That is an interesting question, and it's something that I don't really know how to

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process fully because the concept of this was the biggest deal.

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It's horrifying, the idea of it.

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Right.

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And when it's announced that Tucker's doing this, it feels that way.

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Yeah, it should be.

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And then after it happened and it came out, I really do think there's a bit of deflation.

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Everybody kind of ignored it.

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Yes, which is even weirder.

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But having watched it, I understand.

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I get it.

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I get the deflation because the people that would wish to push this really hard, I think

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didn't get what they wanted out of it, and it doesn't really work.

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Amazing.

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Yeah.

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See, because that's kind of my feeling on this is like, I don't know if anything similar

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to this has really ever happened.

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I struggle to find it analog.

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You know what I'm saying?

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And we can describe similarities in terms of an interview with George W. during the

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height of our horrors, but even then it's like, he's technically a civilian.

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He's not the dictator of the United States.

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Sure.

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And you can also talk to like 50 other people, but man, this is nuts.

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But it would kind of...

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But it's still just not.

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It's still just not.

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Because you also have to ask like, is it a propagandist for another nation interviewing

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Bush?

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Exactly.

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And there might've been the case for like some British folks.

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Sure.

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Well, yeah, that definitely counts.

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But it's just not the same.

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No, it's very hard to put your finger precisely on like...

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I'll tell you why.

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Bush never sent Kerry to a fucking Soviet goddamn work reeducation camp.

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That helps.

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That doesn't come up.

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No, no, no, no.

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That's strange.

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I'm going to say...

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And then they drop the ball.

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But I'm going to say that at the end, Tucker does shock me.

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Okay.

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He does ask a hard question.

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Fascinating.

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And that was something that I was not prepared for emotionally, but we will deal with in

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due time.

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Wow.

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So we'll get down to business on this whole interview, but before we do, let's say hello

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to some new wonks.

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Oh, that's a great idea.

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So first, impoverished white bread.

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Thank you so much.

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You are now a policy wonk.

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Thank you very much.

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Thank you.

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Next, Alex Jones appeared in my dream last night and I'll never forgive you.

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Thank you so much.

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You are now a policy wonk.

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I'm a policy wonk.

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Thank you very much.

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And accepted.

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Agreed.

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Yeah.

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Next, policy wonk in the chocolate bucket of poop.

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Thank you so much.

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You are now a policy wonk.

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I'm a policy wonk.

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Thank you very much.

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Thank you.

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Next, shout out to anyone listening to this who still plays Titanfall 2.

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See you on the frontier pilots.

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Thank you so much.

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You are now a policy wonk.

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I'm a policy wonk.

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Thank you very much.

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Next, I wonk, you wonk, he, she, we wonk, wonkology.

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The study of wonks.

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It's first grade.

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Alex, thank you so much.

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You are now a policy wonk.

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I'm a policy wonk.

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Thank you very much.

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Thank you.

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And we have Technocrat in the mix, Jordan.

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So thank you so much to, I've been listening to your show nonstop and can no longer sleep

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sober.

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Thank you so much.

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You are now a technocrat.

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I'm a policy wonk.

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I don't like to hype things, but people are designed to hype.

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I am going to paint once a week on air and I'm going to let callers call in.

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We'll also take emails and request what you want to see me paint.

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One, two, three.

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Matt Damon.

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Matt Damon.

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There you go.

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Party time.

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I'm going to get in your guts.

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And the Nazis, in my view, were thugs that shook people down to a lot of really bad things.

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But they did good things too.

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We're going to stop dissing the Nazis all the time.

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Okay.

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I'm thinking about doing some shows too, where I run the whole thing myself, just hit record

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and sit in the dark with just a few candles and candlelight and talk about the nature

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of the world universe.

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I mean, you know, a big old juicy ribeye folks is as good as, you know, sex with your wife.

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I mean, let's just get down to reality here.

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I'm going to go Donkey Kong, King Kong crazy in about 45 days.

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America sucks.

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We're all racist.

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It's over.

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It doesn't mean I want to go live, say, in some places in Asia where you get off the

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plane over there, folks, they karate chop you.

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Thank you so much.

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Yeah, that's a live show clip right there.

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You're not going to get karate?

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So is the Matt Damon.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Oh, man.

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Serious stuff.

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Is that subconsciously motivated or was that part of my subconscious in the creation of

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the new technocrat drop?

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That's an interesting point.

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Was there a subconscious drive to hype?

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I like it.

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I like it.

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So I mean, it opens with hype.

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So sure.

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We start this episode with, I would say anti-hype.

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The interview that Tucker puts out begins with a disclaimer that Tucker is putting forth.

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And so here is him delivering that.

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Okay.

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The opening is an interview with the president of Russia, Vladimir Putin, shot February 6,

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2024 at about 7 p.m. in the building behind us, which is of course the Kremlin.

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The interview, as you will see if you watch it, is primarily about the war in progress,

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the war in Ukraine, how it started, what's happening, and most presently how it might

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end.

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One note before you watch.

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At the beginning of the interview, we asked the most obvious question, which is why did

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you do this?

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Did you feel a threat, an imminent physical threat?

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And that's your justification.

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And the answer we got shocked us.

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Putin went on for a very long time, half an hour, about the history of Russia going back

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to the eighth century.

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And honestly, he thought this was a filibustering technique and found it annoying and interrupted

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him several times.

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And he responded, he was annoyed by the interruption.

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But we concluded in the end, for what it's worth, that it was not a filibustering technique.

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There was no time limit on the interview.

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We ended it after more than two hours.

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Instead, what you're about to see seemed to us sincere, whether you agree with it or not.

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Vladimir Putin believes that Russia has a historic claim to parts of Western Ukraine.

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So our opinion would be to view it in that light as a sincere expression of what he thinks.

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And with that, here it is.

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So that disclaimer right there is pretty damning in terms of the interview and kind of tells

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you what you need to know.

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Yeah.

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There's three really important things that I think jump out immediately.

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First, Tucker is worried that his audience is going to be super bored by Putin lecturing

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them about Russian history.

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It is boring.

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They've built him up as this championing anti-woke icon, so they want to hear him do some juicy

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dunks on cancel culture and LGBTQ folk, not a dissection of history.

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Second, you see how unprepared Tucker was for this interview and how poorly he handled

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it, which is something he's trying to get out in front of.

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Putin went off on a rant about history that Tucker decided might be a stalling tactic,

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so he decided to push past it, which annoyed Putin.

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Tucker is trying to preemptively explain a bit of frostiness between him and the subject,

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which is notable.

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I'm going to throw this out at you, all right?

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And we can all take this as you might, but I think it has been a long time, in fact,

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since Putin has been interrupted at all.

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Well, I mean, he handles it well in terms of like he doesn't kill Tucker.

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I mean, yeah, that's kind of the feeling that I would get of him just being like, wait,

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what are you doing to me right now?

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And I think that because this is being done through a translator, I think there are some

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difficulties in terms of pacing.

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Sure.

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And so when you interrupt a person, and then they need a translator, it is tough.

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Especially if that translator is, again, used to never interrupting God Kings.

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So the third thing you notice, you see that Tucker is having to come to the truth that

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Putin believes that Ukraine is part of Russia, which is not good, and that he should be able

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to seize it.

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Yeah.

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He and the folks in his media sphere have spent years making excuses for and rationalizing

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Putin's invasion as secretly being about the things they want it to be about, things that

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serve their underlying narrative.

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He's not conquering anything.

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The whole time they've denied that Putin was motivated by wanting to seize this land, because

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recognizing that means you have to be opposed to his actions and have to realize that Ukraine

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isn't the only place that he thinks is rightly Russia.

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But now Tucker has gone to see this man himself and has heard directly from him that he believes

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Russia has the right to Ukraine, and Tucker's saying Western Ukraine, no less, and Tucker's

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reaction is kind of to feign confusion.

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In the real world, he needs to fake that confusion, because the alternative is to present this

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interview by saying, guys, we were wrong about Putin.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I know it felt like we could use him to push our social bigot narratives and project our

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hopes for a strongman leader onto, but he is not who we pretended to be.

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That guy's nuts.

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Yeah.

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Tucker would never do that, primarily because the audience he's cultivated is largely pro-Putin

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and something minor like wanting to take over a neighboring country, it's not going to shake

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that.

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Yeah.

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So, it's so, I don't know, the framing of this disclaimer is so strange to me.

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Yeah.

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You know, I understand bookending something with a, hey, Tucker Carlson here, this is

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the interview that I did with Putin.

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Hope you enjoy.

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Yeah.

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I mean, like, hey, I thought he was fucking with us when he started talking about 900s.

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That is truly insane.

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900s.

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Yeah.

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That is, it is like, I-

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I whiffed this one, guys, and here's why.

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I just, I guess it makes way more sense in two ways.

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It makes sense in two ways.

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One, Tucker believes himself to be able to straddle the line between bullshit and reality,

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and if you live too long in bullshit, you're not.

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You're just not.

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You're eventually going to buy your own bullshit, at least enough that you will believe you're

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right about some things that you are absolutely not right about.

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So there are some things I'm sure he believed about Putin that he was like, oh fuck, I lied

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to myself.

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I got tricked the same way I tricked bullshit people.

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That might well be, but I think an alternative explanation can easily be that you have built

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up this image of this guy, and you want him to comport to it, and he doesn't.

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Right.

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And he will not.

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My next thought is, what did you think he was going to say?

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You know what I mean?

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Like, when Tucker is preparing for this interview, what did you think Putin was going to say?

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Did you think he was going to give you something new?

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Did he think- did you think he was going to be like, all right, here's the stuff I won't

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tell my people?

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Like, what are you talking about?

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Listen, Disney is too woke.

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I mean, he's- I know.

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I know.

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He is a dude who has created an alternate reality almost individually.

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Which is enforced on others.

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Which is enforced upon an entire country, and you think you're going to challenge that

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dude?

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That's insane.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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He's going to come on and just complain about, like, Tucker's preferred culture of warship.

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I don't like-

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It's so America-centric.

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Like- AOC is bad for- what are you talking about?

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I really enjoyed your interview with Kat Turd.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I listen to your show all the time, you and Alex Jones.

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So Tucker begins, and he has, as promised, the first question.

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Why'd you launch this?

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Why'd you do it?

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And bad off the jump.

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Here we go.

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Mr. President, thank you.

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On February 22nd, 2022, you addressed your country in a nationwide address when the conflict

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in Ukraine started, and you said that you were acting because you had come to the conclusion

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that the United States, through NATO, might initiate a, quote, surprise attack on our

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country.

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And to American ears, that sounds paranoid.

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Tell us why you believe the United States might strike Russia out of the blue.

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How did you conclude that?

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It's not that America, the United States, was going to launch a surprise strike on Russia.

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I didn't say that.

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Are we having a talk show or a serious conversation?

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Here's the quote.

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Thank you.

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It's a formidable series.

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Because your basic education is in history, as far as I understand.

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So if you don't mind, I will take only 30 seconds or one minute to give you a short

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reference to history for giving you a little historical background.

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Please.

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It goes a little longer than a minute.

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Yeah, I believe that.

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So in fairness to Tucker, Putin did say all that kind of stuff in the speech rationalizing

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and invading Ukraine.

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Yeah, of course.

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He said, quote, I would like to additionally emphasize the following.

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Focused on their own goals, the leading NATO countries are supporting the far-right nationalists

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and neo-Nazis in Ukraine, those who will never forgive the people of Crimea and Sevastopol

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for freely making the choice to reunite with Russia.

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Totally freely.

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They will undoubtedly try to bring war to Crimea, just as they've done in Donbass.

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If we look at the sequence of events and incoming reports, the showdown between Russia and these

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forces cannot be avoided.

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It's only a matter of time.

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They are ready and waiting for the right moment.

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Right.

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I'm not sure exactly what quote Tucker is referring to, but I wouldn't say that he's

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off on the premise of this question.

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But you see how Putin is kind of immediately a dick to him.

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That's not what Tucker was hoping for, I am sure.

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I mean, again- Are we doing this for real?

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Are we doing the serious?

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Are we doing big boy stuff?

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I just find it so fascinating, the idea of like, that was true then.

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You understand who I am, I'm Putin.

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Whatever I said then means nothing.

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That was true then.

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Now I'm telling you what's true, and what is true now is also what's true then.

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It doesn't matter what happened.

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And that wasn't true.

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That doesn't mean anything.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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How are you insane?

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Tucker is a fascinating, this is a stupid idea.

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Right.

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I see this immediate assertion of dominance.

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I'm literally the fucking dictator of Russia.

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Who do you think you are?

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First of all, the temerity to say this is going to take 30 seconds to a minute, amazing.

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That's true.

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But if you're engaging in an interview, you really don't want the person to be like,

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we being serious here?

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Is it serious, or is this like one of your shows that is so delegitimizing just from

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the jump?

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Yep, it is very quick.

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Tucker, you have to recognize at that moment, like, uh-oh.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, one, I would never be here ever, but no, I can't even find any, no, my actions

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in this moment would be attack Putin with a knife, I guess.

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That's all I've got.

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And I think that having said that, you probably will never be granted that interview.

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Yeah.

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And I would be killed long before I ever even got close.

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So we get into this minute long discussion of Russian history.

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Just one minute.

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Let's look where our relationship with Ukraine started from.

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Where did Ukraine come from?

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The Russian state started gathering itself as a centralized statehood, and it is considered

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to be the year of the establishment of the Russian state in 862, when the townspeople

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of Novgorod invited a Varangian prince Rurik from Scandinavia to reign.

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In 1862, Russia celebrated the 1000th anniversary of its statehood.

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It's a long time to skip over, just throwing that out there.

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And in Novgorod, there is a memorial dedicated to the 1000th anniversary of the country.

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In 882, Rurik's successor, Prince Oleg, who was actually playing the role of regent at

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Rurik's young son, because Rurik had died by that time, he ousted two brothers who apparently

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had once been members of Rurik's squad.

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So this is not the kind of interview Tucker wanted to have, and I'll go ahead and throw

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myself on that pile, too.

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This is not the kind of interview I particularly wanted.

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I think it can be very interesting to know about history and understand the forces that

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shaped how we got from there to here, and even people's maybe iffy interpretations of

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some things.

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But I don't care if Ukraine was part of Russia in the 800s, that doesn't mean you get to

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take it now.

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We aren't gonna necessarily go blow for blow as Putin lays out his version of the history

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of Russia, because there's an easy way to encapsulate the point he's making, and Tucker

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said it himself in the disclaimer.

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He thought this was a stalling tactic, so he's not in any position to engage with anything

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Putin is saying about history.

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It's a long, intellectualized pitch for his form of Russian nationalism, which essentially

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includes claims to areas that were formerly part of Russia.

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And if this is enough of a part of his motivation to talk to Tucker about it for half an hour,

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it might be wise to consider what other parts of the world that were formerly Russia he

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feels the same way about.

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Might be notable.

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It is a pretty big nation at some points.

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Various points over the-

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It is very large.

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From 864 on.

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Yeah.

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That was the full thousand years that he just kinda-

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It's true.

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Knocked over there.

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A lot of stuff happened in that thousand years.

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You know, a lot of stuff was and was not part of Russia during that thousand years.

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At different points.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Change.

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He has documents, though.

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Yeah.

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He has documents.

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This-

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Oh, wow.

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This-

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You sold me.

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This was what I would describe as a very bizarre moment in the diatribe about history.

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Okay.

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And in 1654, even a bit earlier, the people who were in control of the authority over

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that part of the Russian lands addressed Warsaw, I repeat, demanding that they send them to

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rulers of Russian origin and Orthodox faith.

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When Warsaw did not answer them, and in fact rejected their demands, they turned to Moscow

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so that Moscow took them away.

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So that you don't think that I'm inventing things?

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Don't care.

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I'll give you these documents.

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Well, it doesn't sound like you're inventing it.

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I'm not sure why it's relevant to what happened two years ago.

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But still, these are documents from the archives, copies.

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Here are the letters from Bogdan Khmelnytsky, the man who then controlled the power in this

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part of the Russian lands that is now called Ukraine.

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Here Putin is in the middle of making an argument that way back in the past, the Polish were

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trying to convince the people who lived in what is now Ukraine to see themselves as a

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distinct people from the Russians.

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The people who were in power wanted Orthodox and Russian leaders in the area there in Ukraine,

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which is evidenced by this letter from Bogdan Helmansky.

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Yep.

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It's worth noting that Helmansky was a Cossack who led a rebellion in that area, which was

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largely predicated on antisemitism.

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Weird.

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He wasn't just opposed to the Polish influence in that region.

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He specifically believed that the Jews were behind the Polish control.

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His uprising, which culminated in the Perry Slav agreement that made eastern Ukraine part

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of Russia, included the mass slaughter of tens of thousands of Jewish people.

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Obviously, the point of this story in these documents here is to present an analog to

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the present day.

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Back then, these folks wanted a Russian and Orthodox ruler.

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They called out to Warsaw to try and get it.

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They didn't get it, so they called out to Moscow, and Moscow fulfilled their desire.

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Today, the people in the Donbass region, and apparently all of Ukraine, want to be part

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of Russia and call out for Moscow's protection.

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This is supposed to be a historical antecedent to illustrate that Putin's actions in the

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present day are no different than what's always been done through Russian history.

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Areas around the fringes become decadent, their people call out for Moscow to install

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righteous leaders, and Moscow begrudgingly, in heavy quotes, comes to their aid.

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It's strange that Tucker seems to not get this dynamic of what Putin is saying.

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It feels like he would have to be pretty checked out or really convinced that there was no

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meaning to what Putin was saying for this context to slip by him.

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Here we are.

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I think he really just wanted to pile around and complain about Bud Light cans with Putin,

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and this is where we've ended up.

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I get it to be surprised by Putin going into a lengthy treatise about history, but to imagine

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he's doing it for no reason is silly.

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There is a point that he's trying to make, and the premise of the question was, why did

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you invade Ukraine?

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This historical story is an explanation of a rationale for it, and Tucker engaging with

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it as if it's a filibustering technique is strange.

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I don't think it's strange.

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It makes perfect sense, because he's Tucker.

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This is not something that either of them really understood the other one.

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I think both of them were lying to themselves about who the other person is, because neither

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of them live in reality.

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They both have created their own false reality that they get to live in, and they have infinite

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power within, so why would they ever consider that another person doesn't live within that

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reality, or that if they don't, they should care?

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I guess there is sort of a distorted relationship that comes from Tucker's engagement with Putin

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is largely around the, I can use him for this in my stories, and then Putin's relationship

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with Tucker is probably like, I could probably use that guy, so there's a potential use that

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Putin has for Tucker, and there's a narrative use that Putin serves for Tucker, and those

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things aren't really the same in reality.

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So long as they are separate in terms of one is in Russia and one is in the United States,

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so long as they are in separate media environments, it doesn't matter if the Putin you have created

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is it all related to the real one, nor then the same thing is true for the Tucker.

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Being forced to interact is a collapsing of the imagination wave.

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Because here's the thing.

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In Russia, it's important to remember that Putin is not going like, I'm going to do an

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interview with a fucking clown who interviews cat turd.

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He is saying, I'm going to do an interview with one of the most respected journalists

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in the United States.

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That's what he's telling people.

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And I'm going to disrespect him.

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Absolutely.

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It is amazing to think that realistically neither of them had any idea of what they

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were doing.

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Fascinating.

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Yeah.

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And I think that that is what keeps this from being the most dangerous version of what it

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could be.

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Yeah.

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You know what I mean?

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Nobody wants to drop the ball in such a way that makes this kind of impotent as propaganda

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material.

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Nobody wants to watch it.

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Well, I think some people have been able to rationalize with themselves of like, haha,

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Putin brought up the right, whatever, whatever it is, your slob, the wise, whatever the fuck.

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But like, yeah, I think most people are probably like, this doesn't work for me.

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This is the internet now, man.

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This is the internet.

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I'm not going to listen to you, of all people, explain Russian history.

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So Putin has gone on and Tucker, I think is a little bit like, can we get to the point?

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Yeah.

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If you believe this stuff about Ukraine historically, then why didn't you invade earlier?

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Yeah.

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And Putin does not appreciate the question.

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That's surprising.

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May I ask you, you're making the case that Ukraine, certainly parts of Ukraine, Eastern

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Ukraine is in effect, Russia has been for hundreds of years.

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Why wouldn't you just take it when you became president 24 years ago?

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You have nuclear weapons.

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They don't.

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If it's actually your land, why did you wait so long?

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I'll tell you, I'm coming to that.

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This briefing is coming to an end.

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It might be boring, but it explains many things.

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You just don't know how it's relevant.

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Good.

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Good.

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I'm so gratified that you appreciated that, thank you.

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Yikes.

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Tucker is real weak in this moment.

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He had to basically just stammer out, I don't see how this is relevant, almost under his

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breath.

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And I don't think he's wrong to be a little embarrassed to say that because it's really

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clear how this history lesson is relevant to Putin's ambitions and motivations.

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The issue is that it's not very relevant to the fantasy version of Putin that the right

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wing media has built up.

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We've got a million culture war-adjacent reasons that Putin is fighting off the villains in

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Ukraine, basically trying to save the West from godlessness and below birth rates.

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And if those are the issues that you really think he's fighting about, the history of

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Russia from the 800s onward is not really that relevant.

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Focusing on it is actually counter to the version of his motivations that you've built

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up because he's not supposed to have ambitions to seize territory.

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It's not about seizing.

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People who say that that's what he's interested in are warmongers and liars who hate the West.

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And yet here Putin is basically saying exactly that and defending his position with a lengthy

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treatise on why he's right to take territory.

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Tucker's question, why didn't you do it immediately, is really dumb, and isn't designed to go

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anywhere.

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Putin may have not been in a position to invade previously, and there might have been some

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pretty Russia-friendly leaders in Ukraine over the years, so he might not have had any

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means or motive until fairly recently, probably about when Ukraine threw out Viktor Yanukovych

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in 2014, and then they invaded Crimea.

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The question from Tucker just seems like him wanting to throw out something to reassert

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some kind of control over the conversation, which he has none.

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There's no control on his part.

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Here's what I find fascinating.

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Now I'm actually extremely interested in this interview in a way that I would never have

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been if it was an actual propaganda group.

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Right.

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Dynamically, it's bizarre and almost deserving of study.

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And there's a lot that is coming out that is revealing assumptions that I didn't even

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think about.

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If you stop and you consider this conversation, you can see that the real disconnect is the

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disconnect between Russia and America in terms of age.

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Russia wants shit back.

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If you want to appeal to American colonialism, you go, God told me to take it back in God's

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name.

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You do manifest destiny.

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But we've already taken it back.

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The current state of affairs is us having about it.

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Well, I'm not talking about us doing anything.

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I'm talking about for Putin to give him the propaganda coup.

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You tell America, you tell Tucker Carlson, God said now is the time.

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You just keep hitting God over and over and over again.

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And Tucker can wash away all the other bullshit.

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But you could go for that spiritual aspect.

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Or what Tucker probably wanted is there is a particularly evil deep state in place that

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we must now seize control over.

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There's the weapon labs in Ukraine.

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He wanted something that fed into those narratives that play really well as audiences.

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And the spiritualism is also one of them.

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Yeah, you can always jump from that stuff to being like, and also the deep state is

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control by itself.

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You know, that's what we see.

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Sure.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I got attacked by a demon one time.

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He threw me into the ceiling.

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Totally.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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So, so it is fascinating because that is that type of old world colonialism of like, no,

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that was ours.

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You can't just take it, you know, whereas America is like, just because it wasn't ours

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doesn't mean we can't just take it.

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Sure.

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And I think there's an interesting analog to this mentality too of like, historically

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this was a part of our country.

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Absolutely.

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And that is that parts of your country currently historically weren't.

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Exactly.

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And if you're obsessed with this, you should give back or take away land from you, but

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you don't see people doing that much.

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And it is such a ridiculous idea on its face where you're like, okay, so for a thousand

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years it was yours.

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Okay.

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Well, a thousand years before that it wasn't yours.

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Which one matters more?

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It doesn't.

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Neither of them mean anything.

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Right.

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Just say you want to take control of more people to kill.

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I don't know what's wrong with you, you lunatic.

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Yeah.

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It's a struggle to figure out what date matters.

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Yeah.

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And I think that was an interesting question to this, this notion that Putin is putting

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forth that like, you know, historically Ukraine is part of Russia.

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We get it.

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But then there's other parts of Ukraine that were historically like parts of Hungary.

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Right.

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So what about that?

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Can they have them?

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Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That's a fair follow up.

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It is a fair follow up.

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We have every reason to affirm that Ukraine is an artificial state that was shaped at

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Stalin's will.

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Do you believe Hungary has a right to take its land back from Ukraine and that other

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nations have a right to go back to their 1654 borders?

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I'm not sure whether they should go back to the 1654 borders.

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But given Stalin's time, so-called Stalin's regime, which as many claim saw numerous violations

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of human rights and violations of the rights of other states.

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What?

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When?

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One may say that they could claim back those lands of theirs while having no right to do

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that.

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It is at least understandable.

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Have you told Viktor Orban that he can have part of Ukraine?

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Never.

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I have never told him.

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Not a single time.

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That's good.

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So, I think that you start to get a little bit of a vibe that there's not really good

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answers.

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Because his answer was kind of yes and no.

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Well, yeah, I mean, it's a terrible, it's a petulant, whiny question.

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The question is not actually meant to be answered.

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The question is like, clearly you're full of shit.

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You know?

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Oh, can he have the 1654?

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Obviously you don't care.

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Nor do you want that to exist.

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It's by your logic, Orban can take part of it too.

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Absolutely.

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You're being an asshole.

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So stop it.

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And he's like, well, I'm not going to tell him he can take that shit.

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Why would I?

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I'm crazy.

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But, so the dynamic is interesting because that isn't necessarily what you would expect

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from Tucker.

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And I think part of it is because Putin's being disrespectful to him and he feels his

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ego a little bit ruffled.

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And because he thinks that all of this is a stalling tactic.

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So this isn't even meaningful conversation to begin with.

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So I think that this is kind of like, I'll just throw this out here to push back a little

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bit as opposed to it being part of a productive analysis of like, this is what you believe

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about Russia.

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I can tell you this right now.

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If this was the interview that I had with Putin, I would be checking every piece of

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clothing I ever had for Novichok for the rest of my fucking life.

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Like every single thing.

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I don't mean to be too rude, but I think I wouldn't put it out.

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No, no, no.

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You can't not though.

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That's the problem.

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Once you say you've got an interview with Putin, once people know you have an interview

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with Putin.

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I might have pretended that I was going on vacation to Moscow and like, I maybe never

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would have announced that I did an interview.

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I wouldn't have done that.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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This is not something you put out, but you can't not.

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You're literally interviewing Putin.

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Yeah.

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It has a momentum of its own.

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Yeah.

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So Tucker tries to redirect this conversation because I don't think he enjoys the historical

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lesson.

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For sure.

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And so he tries and it doesn't work.

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But many nations feel frustrated by the redrawn borders of the wars of the 20th century and

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wars going back a thousand years, the ones that you mentioned.

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But the fact is that you didn't make this case in public until two years ago, February.

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And in the case that you made, which I read today, you explain at great length that you

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felt a physical threat from the West in NATO, including potentially a nuclear threat.

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And that's what got you to move.

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Is that a fair characterization of what you said?

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I understand that my long speeches probably fall outside of the genre of the interview.

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That is why I asked you at the beginning, are we going to have a serious talk or a show?

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You said a serious talk.

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So bear with me, please.

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We're coming to the point where the Soviet Ukraine was established.

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Oh my God.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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All right.

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Okay.

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So you're going to kill me then.

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We're just going to keep going back to what I want to talk about.

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Yeah.

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You know, Tucker is incredibly wrong there about this idea that you never made this case

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that Ukraine isn't even really a country, which is the point that Putin's putting forth.

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He's been very clear in the past that he doesn't think the Ukraine is actually a country.

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There's reporting on this going back years, and he famously told George W. Bush, quote,

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you have to understand, George, that Ukraine is not even a country.

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It was at the 2008 NATO summit.

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Tucker should have every reason to know that this is Putin's position and something that

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he said pretty regularly.

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So it's a meaningless question to ask him why Putin only started saying this stuff in

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2022.

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The premise of the question is a lie meant to force Putin into a hollow gotcha moment,

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but there is no gotcha except in terms of Tucker's unpreparedness for the conversation.

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And of course, Putin talked about being under threat from NATO and the West.

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That's how he made his aggressive action a situation where he was actually the victim,

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which is a narrative that Tucker is consistently pushed on his own show, along with a large

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chunk of the right wing media.

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Right about now is when Tucker should start wrestling with the fact that he was played,

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and he's continuing to be played in this interview, very willingly though.

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It's just not fun in the moment.

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And to that point, I made the point on our last episode that I think Tucker is a willing

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participant in Putin glorifying propaganda, and he's not being a useful idiot in this

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whole thing.

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I stand by that, but I don't think he was expecting this.

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He was expecting a pro-Putin interview that stayed mostly in the territory that relates

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to the curated version of Putin that plays well to the American right wing audience.

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This is the version that Tucker is desperately trying to get to with questions about being

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under threat from NATO.

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He's trying very hard to pivot this conversation into territory he knows will fly.

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Meanwhile, Putin's just being himself, blunt, kind of a dick, and making no secret that

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he feels like he has the right to seize most, if not all of Ukraine, because it's not really

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a country.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:49.679)

Yeah.

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Again, I find it so fascinating, because in this situation, the obvious thing to do is

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collaborate on the interview beforehand.

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That'd be insane not to.

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It's insane that Tucker's people didn't talk to... It's this fucking, goddamn, Jimmy Kimmel

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pre-tapes interviews and shit.

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You do questions in advance.

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There must have been some- Pre-interview something.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:18.880)

There has to have been.

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But somehow... See, this like, do you want to do a show or a serious interview?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:25.079)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:26.079)

I think that wire must have been crossed somehow.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:27.079)

I think so.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:28.079)

I think neither of them understood what they meant.

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Right.

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Putin was like, oh, so a serious interview.

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I will give you a lecture.

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Tucker's like, when I say serious, what I mean is the other one, but I can't, because

Unknown Speaker (00:45:37.679)

I have too much pride, I can't say I'm a fucking hack clown, but man, it is like, how is it

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possible that Putin's people didn't go, okay, well, ultimately if we put all of the future

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of this together, Trump needs to be in the White House for us to have complete and free

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reign to take whatever we want, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:46:01.880)

The idea behind this interview has to be galvanize the right wing in the United States.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:07.159)

That's the strategic move for Russia right now.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:09.960)

How do you not know... How do you not have people being like, here's what the right wing

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fucking loves, feed them this over and over and over again, and you'll get whatever you

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want out of it?

Unknown Speaker (00:46:19.840)

I think because perhaps the interview is predicated on the idea of a conversation about Ukraine,

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and I think Putin went in ready to make his rationalization and justification for the

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invasion and why it's not really an invasion because they're not really a country, and

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that isn't what it's meant to be.

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It's not what would work best.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:45.599)

Yeah, it should be... This is one of those big moments that should always be hammered

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home again and again and again.

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No people should have this much power because if you have it for any length of time, you

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become a fucking moron and an idiot.

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Maybe you should be checking your clothes.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:02.679)

I will be.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:03.679)

So, Tucker asks about why relations didn't get better between Russia and the US after

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the Cold War.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:10.039)

Good question.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:11.039)

And you've mentioned this many times, I think it's a fair point, and many in America thought

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that relations between Russia and the United States would be fine with the collapse of

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the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War, that the opposite happened.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:26.400)

But you've never explained why you think that happened except to say that the West fears

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a strong Russia, but we have a strong China the West does not seem very afraid of.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:36.559)

I'm sorry?

Unknown Speaker (00:47:37.820)

Is Tucker saying that the US, or at least a wide swath of it, is not afraid of China?

Unknown Speaker (00:47:42.039)

Tucker and his buddy scream about China all the time, and Congress has been holding bizarre

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hearings to try to ban TikTok because of fears of connections to the Chinese government.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:49.880)

Again, Tucker's question is based on a false premise, namely that the US as an entity isn't

Unknown Speaker (00:47:54.039)

afraid of China.

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This is based on a further false premise, which is that Putin has never spoken of why

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relations didn't get better between the US and Russia post Cold War, other than to say

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that the US is afraid of a strong Russia.

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As you might get the sense from the beginning of this interview, Putin has a lot of thoughts

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about history and he isn't really shy about sharing them.

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If Tucker thinks that Putin hasn't talked about this stuff, it's because Tucker has

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avoided learning about the subject, and that's a bad position to be in because when you say

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this kind of shit and you're like, well, no one's afraid of strong China, Putin's going

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to be like, what the fuck are you talking about?

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We have a strong China the West does not seem very afraid of.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:34.599)

What about Russia?

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Do you think convinced policymakers they had to take it down?

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The West is afraid of strong China more than it fears a strong Russia because Russia has

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150 million people and China has 1.5 billion populations like this economy is growing by

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leaps and bounds or 5% a year.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:59.219)

It used to be even more, but that's enough for China.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:03.039)

As Bismarck once put it, potentials are the most important.

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China's potential is enormous.

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It is the biggest economy in the world today in terms of purchasing power parity and the

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size of the economy.

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It has already overtaken the United States quite a long time ago and it is growing at

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a rapid clip.

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Let's not talk about who is afraid of whom.

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Let's not reason in such terms.

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Let's get into the fact that after 1991, when Russia expected that it would be welcomed

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into the brotherly family of civilized nations, nothing like this happened.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:37.239)

You tricked us.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:38.239)

I don't mean you personally when I say you.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:41.059)

Of course, I'm talking about the United States.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:43.440)

The promise was that NATO would not expand eastward, but it happened five times.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:48.360)

Damn Tucker, that's got to burn.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:50.599)

Putin just took down his whole the US isn't afraid of China premise.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:53.980)

These two men are at odds about what propaganda game they're trying to play and that tension

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is hurting the end product.

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And Putin's just wrong about NATO expansion.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:01.800)

It's been very well documented and explained that in the proper context, the agreement

Unknown Speaker (00:50:05.320)

not to expand was in relation to East and West Germany, not about other countries.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:09.840)

That said, this is finally a point that he's making that Tucker is likely to want to engage

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with.

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He has talking points on this.

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The audience is primed to understand it through their lens.

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So hopefully you would think that this is where you get the ball rolling a little bit

Unknown Speaker (00:50:23.199)

and not really, but it's a, it's an opportunity.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:26.880)

It is such a like, Oh man, do you guys know how much easier it is when you believe in

Unknown Speaker (00:50:32.679)

reality and you just share it?

Unknown Speaker (00:50:34.719)

It's so much easier to have a conversation.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:37.199)

It's so easy.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:38.199)

You're just like, here's the outside.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:40.079)

I agree.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:41.079)

It's the same.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:42.079)

Look at that tree.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:43.079)

Oh, there it is.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:44.079)

Amazing.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:45.079)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:46.079)

It's I don't even fully know the best words to put on it to describe like this kind of

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dissonance between them, but there is just, there's something.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:55.320)

And then who knows how much of it also is just the difficulty of communicating through

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a translator.

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Like I imagine that hurts some of the fluidity of conversation for sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:04.320)

And I think that that can make it more difficult to ask followups, get the rhythm of conversation

Unknown Speaker (00:51:11.239)

going, but I can't account for all of it.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:14.039)

There's so much more going on.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:15.260)

And I imagine there's tone that is lost.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:18.079)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:19.079)

Yeah, definitely.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:20.079)

There is another thread that runs kind of throughout this and that is that Putin feels

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wronged certainly by NATO expanding and then by various people that he keeps bringing up

Unknown Speaker (00:51:32.880)

people like Clinton, Bush, all sorts of world leaders that have done him dirty.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:38.039)

No, it's okay to have a paranoid former KGB guy running an entire country.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:42.480)

That makes perfect sense.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:43.480)

So he talks a little bit about Clinton here.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:46.280)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:47.280)

I had a meeting here in the Kremlin with the outgoing president, Bill Clinton, right here

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in the next room.

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I said to him, I asked him, Bill, do you think if Russia asked to join NATO, do you think

Unknown Speaker (00:52:01.460)

it would happen?

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Suddenly he said, you know, it's interesting.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:07.400)

I think so.

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But in the evening when we met for dinner, he said, you know, I've talked to my team.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:15.559)

No, no.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:16.960)

It's not possible now.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:18.960)

Too many JBS people around.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:20.280)

Sorry.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:21.280)

Ask him.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:22.280)

I think he will watch our interview.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:23.280)

He'll confirm it.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:24.760)

I wouldn't have said anything like that if it hadn't happened.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:28.320)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:29.320)

Were you sincere?

Unknown Speaker (00:52:30.320)

It's impossible now.

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Would you have joined NATO?

Unknown Speaker (00:52:33.679)

Look, I asked the question, is it possible or not?

Unknown Speaker (00:52:38.719)

And the answer I got was no.

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If I wasn't sincere in my desire to find out what the leadership position was.

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But if he had said yes, would you have joined NATO?

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If he had said yes, the process of rapprochement would have commenced and eventually it might

Unknown Speaker (00:52:56.480)

have happened.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:57.480)

If we had seen something on the other side of our partners.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:01.119)

I like that.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:02.119)

It didn't happen.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:03.119)

Selfie on that Putin.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:04.119)

No means no.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:05.119)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:06.119)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:07.119)

No means no.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:08.119)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:09.119)

You don't want me.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:10.119)

I'm going to go over here.

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I would have voluntarily given up power like most dictators I know.

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I would have absolutely removed all of the rampant corruption in our government.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:20.239)

I'm definitely not the richest person in the world by a vast margin.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:23.920)

I would definitely, yeah, I would have joined NATO.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:29.920)

That is, how can you be that stupid?

Unknown Speaker (00:53:34.039)

Do you mean Tucker?

Unknown Speaker (00:53:35.440)

I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:36.440)

All of us on this planet.

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It is kind of amazing that Putin's still alive.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:42.739)

That's incredible to me to nail it for that long whenever you're the most killable person

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alive right now.

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You know what was nuts?

Unknown Speaker (00:53:50.639)

I didn't even realize this.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:51.960)

I was looking, I just was reading an article about him and it was like, he's 70.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:58.119)

Yeah.

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It's like, oh, he's 71 now.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:00.679)

Like that's shocking to me.

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It's amazing.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:03.440)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:04.440)

It is amazing that he has not been killed because it's just, you feel like you have

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to.

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The moment that a guy got poisoned on a plane and they made a documentary about it and then

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the idiot went back and they put him in a prison forever.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:17.159)

You're like, well, this guy, I don't think he's going to give up power ever.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:20.400)

No, he's probably going to join NATO.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:22.679)

If only Bill Clinton had let him.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:24.760)

I mean, it's amazing.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:26.320)

Yeah.

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Amazing.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:28.320)

And you can see there's the seeds of something that Tucker is really going to enjoy in that

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story, which is that Bill Clinton, the elected leader, was like, hey, maybe this is possible.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:36.119)

And then his team said no, which is the deep state.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:38.880)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:39.880)

There's these kernels of things that could be worked with, but they aren't going to be

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used to their greatest potential because there is something that is not working between these

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two dudes.

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So weird.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:50.360)

And some of it is probably just personal disrespect because Tucker uses a poor word choice here

Unknown Speaker (00:54:56.780)

when he's talking about this not getting into NATO thing.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:59.960)

Why do you think that is?

Unknown Speaker (00:55:00.960)

Just to get to motive, I know you're clearly bitter about it, I understand.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:05.679)

But why do you think the West rebuffed you then?

Unknown Speaker (00:55:09.400)

Why the hostility?

Unknown Speaker (00:55:10.400)

Why did the end of the Cold War not fix the relationship?

Unknown Speaker (00:55:14.280)

What motivates this from your point of view?

Unknown Speaker (00:55:20.000)

You said I was bitter about the answer.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:22.440)

No, it's not bitterness.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:24.639)

I have never felt bitterness.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:27.199)

We're not bride and groom, bitterness, resentment.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:30.559)

It's not about those kind of matters in such circumstances.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:34.480)

We just realized we weren't welcome there.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:37.239)

That's all.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:38.239)

Okay, fine.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:39.239)

Fine.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:40.239)

But let's build relations in another manner.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:42.639)

Let's work for common ground elsewhere.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:46.119)

Why we received such a negative response, you should ask your leaders.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:50.119)

I can only guess why.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:52.079)

Too big a country with its own opinion and so on.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:54.840)

Okay, so you have an answer.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:57.079)

That sounds right.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:58.079)

You don't want me in your club, that's fine.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:59.079)

That's fine.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:00.079)

I don't want to be in your club anyway.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:01.079)

Look, we got to still play in the same park, we got to find a way to get along.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:06.760)

I'm totally fine that you don't want me in your club.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:08.599)

I'm not bitter.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:10.039)

I find.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:11.039)

You're bitter.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:12.039)

I find it interesting that we can be unhappy with a country that's too big and has its

Unknown Speaker (00:56:17.639)

own opinion.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:18.639)

I feel like there's only one opinion that really matters.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:22.920)

It's a big opinion.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:23.920)

It's a big one.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:24.920)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:25.920)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:26.920)

I feel like there is a boldness in Tucker saying you're bitter.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:32.360)

There is.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:33.360)

I'm genuinely surprised by how much of a dick he seems to be.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:36.559)

I think they just genuinely don't like each other on a personal level.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:39.840)

That's kind of the sense that I would take away from this.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:43.400)

Based on Tucker's career and the things that he... It seems like he would like Putin quite

Unknown Speaker (00:56:49.519)

a bit, likes the idea of him.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:51.639)

But then when Putin starts off the interview being like, we're going to be big boys here,

Unknown Speaker (00:56:55.599)

we're going to be serious.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:56.599)

He did seem- And then spends half an hour rambling about

Unknown Speaker (00:56:59.760)

... Not rambling.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:00.760)

I mean, he has a coherent point, but talking about Russian history.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:04.599)

Boring history.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:05.599)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:06.599)

I think Tucker feels... And every time Tucker's tried to redirect the conversation, he's been

Unknown Speaker (00:57:11.159)

like, shut up now.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:12.519)

I'm going to talk about this and then we'll do whatever you want to do.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:15.920)

I think that Tucker's probably like, I fucking don't like this guy.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:20.039)

I think it feels personal.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:21.719)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:22.719)

I can't imagine Tucker being used to being literally, impossibly the second fiddle.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:32.679)

Tucker's not used to that.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:33.679)

He hangs out with Cantard and the guy who says he had sex with Obama.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:36.440)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:37.440)

Power imbalance.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:38.440)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:39.440)

This is a power imbalance.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:40.440)

It's severe.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:41.440)

Again, it's why this is so historical and yet this is insanity.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:45.079)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:46.079)

What is happening in this world?

Unknown Speaker (00:57:51.199)

The premise of this and the reality of it are entirely disconnected.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:57.960)

It's so hard to make the twain meet.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:00.239)

The last time we talked about how it seemed like 30 years ago stuff made sense and then

Unknown Speaker (00:58:06.400)

the past decade has just been absolute madness that you can't explain.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:09.920)

I think this might be one of the pinnacles of absolute madness that I can't explain.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:14.719)

This is truly insane and kind of no one cares and also kind of it's amazing and also this

Unknown Speaker (00:58:20.719)

is the most boring thing I've ever... I don't know what is happening with this world, man.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:24.800)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:25.800)

I had to sit with a lot of that while I was preparing this episode.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:27.440)

I believe it.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:28.440)

It was a strange headspace.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:30.960)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:31.960)

So Putin complains about US support of people who are being invaded by him.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:36.840)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:37.840)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:38.840)

He doesn't like it.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:39.840)

I repeatedly raised the issue that the United States should not support separatism or terrorism

Unknown Speaker (00:58:43.440)

in the North Caucasus.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:47.320)

But they continue to do it anyway.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:50.239)

And political support, information support, financial support, even military support came

Unknown Speaker (00:58:56.199)

from the United States and its satellites for terrorist groups in the Caucasus.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:01.000)

Not you.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:03.239)

I once raised this issue with my colleague, also the president of the United States.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:08.280)

He says, it's impossible.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:09.280)

Name drop.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:10.280)

Do you have proof?

Unknown Speaker (00:59:11.280)

I said yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:12.639)

I was prepared for this conversation and I gave him that proof.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:17.340)

He looked at it and you know what he said?

Unknown Speaker (00:59:20.239)

I apologize, but that's what happened.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:22.340)

I'll quote.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:23.340)

He says, well, I'm going to kick their ass.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:27.579)

We waited and waited for some response.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:30.500)

There was no reply.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:32.920)

I said to the FSB director, write to the CIA.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:36.420)

What is the result of the conversation with president?

Unknown Speaker (00:59:39.840)

He wrote once, twice, and then we got a reply.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:44.480)

We have the answer in the archive.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:46.559)

The CIA replied.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:48.440)

We have been working with the opposition in Russia.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:51.079)

We believe that this is the right thing to do and we will keep on doing it.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:56.519)

Just ridiculous.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:57.519)

Well, okay.

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We realized that it was out of the question.

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Forces in opposition to you.

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You're saying the CIA is trying to overthrow your government.

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Of course, they meant in that particular case, the separatists, the terrorists who fought

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with us in the caucuses.

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That's who they called the opposition.

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Yeah.

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He's talking about the US supporting groups fighting back against Russia's 2008 invasion

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of Georgia.

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In reality, Putin was the one who was supporting separatists in the Abkhazia and South Ossetia

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regions as a pretext to invade just as he has with the Donbass region in the case of

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the current war with Ukraine.

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It's almost like there is a pattern, but I'm sure there's some good explanation involving

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something that happened in the nine hundreds that'll make this all okay.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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These people are just insane.

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It doesn't make any sense.

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It just doesn't.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yep.

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Wild.

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It is.

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But I imagine...

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So here's what I imagine.

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All right?

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Psychologically, if you're Putin, you have to constantly be justifying an impossible

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to justify position.

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There's no reason for anyone to have as much power as Putin does ever.

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For any reason.

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At some point, it becomes background noise, the need to justify.

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I see.

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So that's why it has to be a constant...

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If I am not proving to myself that this is mine, then I could lose it.

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Right?

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That has to be it.

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It has to be a constant, I could lose this at any second.

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So there has to be ironclad historical rationalizations and justifications at every turn, I've been

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wronged and...

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Yep.

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Yeah.

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That may be.

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Very well may be.

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Fascinating.

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Yeah.

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So one thing that Putin has been very clear about is that he wants a joint missile defense

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system.

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Sure.

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In the region.

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Right.

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And so he talks about that here a little bit.

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I propose that the United States, Russia, and Europe jointly create a missile defense

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system that we believe, if created unilaterally, threatens our security, despite the fact

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that the United States officially said that it was being created against missile threats

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from Iran.

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That was the justification for the deployment of the missile defense system.

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I suggested working together, Russia, the United States, and Europe.

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They said it was very interesting.

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They asked me, are you serious?

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I said absolutely.

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May I ask what year was this?

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I don't remember.

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It is easy to find out on the internet when I was in the USA at the invitation of a Bush

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senior.

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It is even easier to learn from someone I'm going to tell you about.

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I was told it was very interesting.

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I said, just imagine if we could tackle such a global strategic security challenge together.

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The world will change.

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We'll probably have disputes, probably economic and even political ones, but we could drastically

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change the situation in the world.

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He says yes and asks, are you serious?

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I said, of course.

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You for real, bro?

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We need to think about it.

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I'm sold.

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I said, go ahead, please.

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Then Secretary of Defense Gates, former director of CIA and Secretary of State Rice came in

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here, in this cabinet, right here at this table.

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They sat on this table.

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Me, the foreign minister, the Russian defense minister on that side, they said to me, yes,

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we have thought about it.

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We agree.

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I said, thank God, great.

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But with some exceptions.

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So twice you've described US presidents making decisions and then being undercut by their

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agency heads.

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So it sounds like you're describing a system that's not run.

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Like a dictatorship?

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That's right.

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That's right.

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What man should have unilateral power?

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I'm not going to tell you the details because I think it's incorrect.

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After all, it was confidential conversation, but our proposal was declined.

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That's a fact.

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So it's been reported pretty widely going back to at least 2000 predating even Bush's

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time in office, this joint missile defense stuff.

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It was also something that Putin suggested many other times, and the sticking point is

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generally that Putin wanted a guarantee that the missile defense systems would never be

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used against Russia's missiles.

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This has been a non-starter for obvious as well as practical reasons, like a treaty like

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that would need to be ratified by the Senate, which would be an enormous hurdle that probably

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would never get cleared.

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But you can see in that clip, there's two dynamics really at play.

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Putin is airing out these grievances and coming off a little bit complainy.

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Meanwhile, Tucker is trying to do whatever he can to inject his business into the conversation

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as he did there, trying to weave in a point that would bring things into this deep state-

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Presidents suck.

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Gotcha.

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And the deep state is secretly in control of the United States, that this is the fertile

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territory for Tucker.

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The system is broken because the deep state broke it.

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Yeah, because our elected leader isn't the one who's making the decision, as you're saying

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unilaterally.

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It's these deep state people.

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Putin acknowledged Tucker's point, but then carried on with his own line of thought, which

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goes to show that someone who is boring and has actual power will beat someone flashy

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who has pretend power every time.

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Every time.

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It feels like there are these moments where Tucker is trying to be like, all right, now

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let's play this ball.

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Let's play this ball.

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Come on.

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Come on.

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Something.

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Come on.

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Yeah, because the answer to that, of course, is Putin, you're a lying piece of shit.

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Nobody can trust you ever and nobody can because you've proven yourself to be untrustworthy.

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Even if you're telling the truth, you can't be trusted.

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That's the end of our conversation, though.

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That's the problem with it.

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I don't believe a single word you say, even and especially when it's true.

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Little old me.

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Yeah.

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I can't.

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You have proven yourself that way.

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What is the point of this conversation other than to see how interesting your lies are?

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Sure.

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Right?

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I guess that's sort of my look at it, my glimpse.

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So we get to the 2004 Ukrainian election and Putin has some thoughts about that.

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2004.

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2004.

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The first time he won after President Kuchma, they organized a third round, which is not

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provided for in the Constitution of Ukraine.

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This is a coup d'etat.

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Just imagine someone in the United States wouldn't like the outcome.

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In 2014?

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Before that.

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No, this was before that, after President Kuchma, Viktor Yanukovych, won the elections.

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However, his opponents did not recognize that victory.

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The U.S. supported the opposition and the third round was scheduled.

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What is this?

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This is a coup.

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The U.S. supported it and the winner of the third round came to power.

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Imagine if in the U.S. something was not to someone's liking and the third round of election,

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which the U.S. Constitution does not provide for, was organized.

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Nonetheless, it was done in Ukraine.

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Okay.

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So Leonid Kuchma had been president of Ukraine from 1994 to 2005 and he was a leader that

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was oriented towards Russia, generally, he was a friendly leader.

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There was an election to name his successor in 2004 that came down to Viktor Yanukovych

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and Viktor Yushchenko, which Yushchenko won.

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That was bad for Putin, since Yushchenko was aligned towards NATO and being a part of Europe,

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as opposed to being closer with Russia.

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Putin doesn't believe that Ukraine is a real country, but that's fine, as long as the leader

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of the country is not a problem for him and Yushchenko was a potential problem.

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It's worth noting that when he was running for president, someone poisoned Yushchenko

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with dioxin in what many fully understand to be an assassination attempt.

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But as we learned on our last episode, Putin has said that they do not have a habit of

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such things.

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They don't do it.

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Putin is saying that there was an unheard of third round of voting that took place in

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2004 and he's kind of right.

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What happened is that there was a normal first round where someone would need to get over

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50% of the vote to win.

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No one got that much, so they went to a runoff, which is the second round, and that was just

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between Yushchenko and Yanukovych.

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The second round of voting was plagued by what you might call irregularities.

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For instance, in the Donetsk Oblats, where Yanukovych is from, they reported like a 98%

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turnout, which is insane, and a massive jump from the first round.

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And 97% voted for him, too.

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So crazy.

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Further, poll watchers from Yushchenko's side were expelled from many polling stations on

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the eastern side of the country, and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe said

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that there were more violations of election law than they could list off in the time that

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they had in a press conference.

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The eastern side of Ukraine.

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Geographically, that seems closer to Russia.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Public outcry led to a challenge of the results of the runoff, then that got to the Ukrainian

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Supreme Court, who threw out the results and ordered a new runoff, which Yushchenko would

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go on to win.

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So, it is true that a third round of voting did happen, but it was done according to Ukrainian

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law and because there were massive problems with the runoff election.

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But it's fun to see how Putin is essentially poking at Tucker here, with the, can you imagine

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if someone didn't believe the results of the election in the US?

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Tucker has probably had a rough time figuring out if he should agree or disagree with that.

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Like, how do I play this ball?

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Am I being fucked with right now?

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The interesting thing here is that Putin would have had no problem if Yanukovych had won

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that election.

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In fact, congratulated him on the win before it was overturned because he knew that Yanukovych

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would be friendly to Russian interests.

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Ukraine isn't a country to Putin, so he can't possibly care about the integrity of the voting

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system.

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He just cares that whoever is leading the non-country is beholden to him and not the

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West.

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That is so interesting because I think we're going to have an almost identical situation

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here as, not identical.

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I mean, a similar situation wherein essentially the Supreme Court will come down to decide

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the election.

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Right?

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Like, in the situation that the Supreme Court chose-

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It'll be like old times.

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The Supreme Court had to say that the results of the election are thrown out because it's

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bullshit.

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Right?

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Now, here's what I find fascinating about that comparatively is that if you hear the

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arguments at the Supreme Court for keeping Trump on the ballot, the Supreme Court justices

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are all like, hey, listen, if we stop this, you don't know what's going to happen.

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Anybody could get fucking thrown off the ballot.

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You know what I'm saying?

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If you fuck with me, you know, like that kind of thing, and it is in essence, if Ukraine

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was like, well, we would throw out the results of these elections, but we're worried people

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will be mad and then throw out the results of that election next time, you know?

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So we'll not do our job.

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Then in that essence, then yeah, it would have been him.

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It would have been Russia's Ukraine, and we're about to have Russia's United States.

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Well, that's a pessimistic view.

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Interesting.

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We'll see how the Supreme Court decides.

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We will see.

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So there's this coup that happened in 2004 in Kiev, and it's weird because if you're

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listening to this interview as it goes on, you know, Yanukovych gets thrown out after

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he wins the other election, he gets thrown out in 2014.

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So 2004 and 2014 are both times that Yanukovych got wronged.

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And there is a lack of definition between like a coup in 2004 and a coup in 2014.

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And it's hard to keep track of what is being argued.

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But I think that this one is about 2004, and then there's a little bit of sass.

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As the Americans requested, Yanukovych did use neither the armed forces nor the police,

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yet the armed opposition committed a coup in Kiev.

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What is that supposed to mean?

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Who do you think you are?

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I wanted to ask the U.S. leadership.

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With the backing of whom?

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With the backing of CIA, of course.

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The organization you wanted to join back in the day, you should thank God they didn't

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let you in.

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This is a serious organization, I understand.

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My former vis a vis in the sense that I served in the first main directorate Soviet Union's

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intelligence service.

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They have always been our opponents.

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A job is a job.

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Hey, man, can you stop being such a dick?

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I'm gonna say this.

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I'm gonna say this.

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I know who should have done this interview.

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Nick Cannon, because Putin is wilding out right now.

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Whoo.

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Yeah, that's... I mean, in the terms of the world that this is taking place in, that is

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severely dishy.

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I am shocked by how whiny and petty and bullshitty this is, considering the significant amount

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of power on display here.

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Yeah.

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Two men-

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It's not even necessarily the power that's on display.

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It's the power that's implied by both of them.

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The power that's owned by both of them is subsumed into, these two people are whiny

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and pathetic.

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It does not come off well for either of them, I think, through most of it.

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I hate, I hate, hate, hate that it is 100% true.

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Every asshole in this country has a million times the courage of every elected leader

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on this fucking planet.

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And especially the ones who don't get elected.

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How do you quantify courage?

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Just getting through the day without whining like a loser to Tucker fucking Carlson.

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Well, most of us don't have the opportunity.

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That's true.

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So, we get to the actual, the war business, and would you be surprised to learn that Putin's

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really the one trying to stop the war?

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I am not surprised to learn that.

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It was they who started the war in 2014.

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Our goal is to stop this war, and we did not start this war in 2022.

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This is an attempt to stop it.

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Do you think you've stopped it now?

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I mean, have you achieved your aims?

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No, we haven't achieved our aims yet because one of them is the Nazification.

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This means the prohibition of all kinds of neo-Nazi movements.

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This is one of the problems that we discussed during the negotiation process, which ended

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in Istanbul early this year.

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And it was not our initiative because we were told by the Europeans in particular that it

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was necessary to create conditions for the final signing of the documents.

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My counterparts in France and Germany said, how can you imagine them signing a treaty

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with a gun to their heads?

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The troops should be pulled back from Kiev.

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I said, all right.

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We withdrew the troops from Kiev.

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As soon as we pulled back our troops from Kiev, our Ukrainian negotiators immediately

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threw all our agreements reached in Istanbul into the bin and got prepared for a longstanding

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armed confrontation with the help of the United States and its satellites in Europe.

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That is how the situation has developed.

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But he seems to be conveniently leaving off the entire period of the start of the invasion

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to the Istanbul negotiations.

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What about it?

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Seems like he's giving a thorough...

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That happened then, but it didn't happen then because I'm telling you about how it didn't

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happen then now.

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Right.

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So, hmm, Istanbul negotiations took place on March 29th and 30th, 2022.

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This is over a month into the war and maybe pulling out of Kiev was part of creating conditions

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where there could be a negotiation or it might've been because they couldn't hold Kiev and Ukraine

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was putting up counter-offenses.

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It's not like they had a comfortable control of Kiev and graciously moved out.

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They were repelled.

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But here we kind of have the difficulty of Tucker doing this interview.

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Putin has presented himself as someone whose actions are about trying to end this war and

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Tucker has said as much in his show.

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Maybe not literally those exact words, but that's the messaging.

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If anybody is at fault to continue driving this war on-

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It's Ukraine, the United States, the deep state.

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However, in the course of this interview so far, Putin has said that Ukraine isn't a real

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country and that he should be able to seize it as part of his historical version of Russia.

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That motivation runs counter to how Tucker has presented this in the past and it creates

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a little bit of tension that is unresolved.

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This is an optics problem for Tucker that he's been trying to rectify by attempting

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to steer things towards red meat type talking points for his audience and Putin's just not

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playing ball.

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Because he doesn't have to.

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No.

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Amazing.

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But there's such a payoff for him propagandistically if you were to, but I think that he just didn't

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think that that's what this interview was.

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He just did.

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I mean it makes you wonder, because it's in the same way, you can't have this much power,

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you become an idiot, you become a moron, you don't get told the truth by anybody.

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So what you actually believe is not reality regardless of what it is.

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Even if you are awesome at understanding reality, you simply cannot.

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So what he believes is actually happening is incomprehensible.

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I can't know ever what he truly- Well-

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Not even truly.

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I mean just what he thinks is going on from a day to day is not reflective of reality.

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But here we have, in this instance at least, we have that there was a coup in 2004 and

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2014.

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Sure.

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And this war started in 2014 because they threw out Yanukovych.

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That's how it worked.

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And then there was a not Russia friendly power in place.

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And that starts the war.

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Because Ukraine's not a country anyway.

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It's Ukraine's fault for not having not friendly Russian leaders that they wanted.

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They exist at the sort of pleasure of Putin.

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And if they have an unfriendly leader, well then that's-

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They don't exist at the displeasure of Putin.

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So that's kind of where we're at.

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But we got into the denazification, that came up a little bit.

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And so that's an interesting concept that gets explored a little bit.

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I just want Zelensky to come, we sign things together, he wears a pair of underpants that

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I give him and then he goes home, why does everybody get worried about this?

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So Tucker actually does ask, like, what is denazification?

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Right.

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But what is, pardon my ignorance, what is denazification?

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What would that mean?

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That is what I want to talk about right now.

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It is a very important issue.

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Denazification.

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After gaining independence, Ukraine began to search, as some Western analysts say, its

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identity.

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And it came up with nothing better than to build this identity upon some false heroes

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who collaborated with Hitler.

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I have already said that in the early 19th century, when the theorists of independence

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and sovereignty of Ukraine appeared, they assumed that an independent Ukraine should

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have very good relations with Russia.

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But due to the historical development, those territories were part of the Polish-Lithuanian

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Commonwealth, Poland, where Ukrainians were persecuted and treated quite brutally, as

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well as were subject to cruel behavior.

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There were also attempts to destroy their identity.

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All this remained in the memory of the people.

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When World War II broke out, part of this extremely nationalist elite collaborated with

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Hitler, believing that he would bring them freedom.

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The German troops, even the SS troops, made Hitler's collaborators do the dirtiest work

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of exterminating the Polish and Jewish population.

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Hence this brutal massacre of the Polish and Jewish population, as well as the Russian

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population too.

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This was led by the persons who are well known, Bandera, Shukevich.

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It was those people who were made national heroes, that is the problem.

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And we are constantly told that nationalism and neo-nazism exist in other countries as

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well.

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Yes, they are seedlings, but we approved them, and other countries fight against them.

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But Ukraine is not the case.

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These people have been made international heroes in Ukraine.

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Monuments to those people have been erected.

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They are displayed on flags.

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Their names are shouted by crowds that walk with torches, as it was in Nazi Germany.

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So I'm struck by this explanation of denazification, and the thing that it brings to mind is like

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the attempt to take down statues of Confederate generals in the United States.

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I was thinking the exact same thing, yeah.

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It seems to me that the idea of some of your folk heroes being Nazi collaborators is not

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great.

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And yeah, maybe you should reassess that and take down some of those statues.

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Is that a cause for war?

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How would anyone in Tucker or Alex's audience respond to Canada invading us because we won't

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get rid of Confederate flags on buildings, and that some people celebrate slave owners

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as folk heroes?

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Oh man.

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How would they like that?

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Just wait until Canada finds out how many schools are named after Woodrow Wilson.

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Oh.

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You have no idea.

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Honestly, I would think that anyone on the far right hearing Putin's explanation of denazification,

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I would think they would think it sounds like woke bullshit.

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Leaving aside that Putin's version of this is not accurate, based on the political inclinations

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of the American far right, Putin's supporting crowd, they should really oppose this denazification.

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At very least, they should reject it as a pretext for justifying a war.

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Also, if we're on the subject of looking up to problematic people, Putin was just trotting

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out a letter from Bogdan Helmansky earlier as evidence for the historical desire by people

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in modern day Russia to be ruled by Orthodox and Russian leaders, not by the Polish power

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in the time.

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And if you recall, that dude killed tens of thousands of Jewish people in his uprising.

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This presents a problem, because Helmansky wasn't around during World War II times but

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was a vicious anti-Semite who was considered by parts of Ukraine to be a folk hero for

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his role in the uprising that would throw off Polish rule.

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But Putin is also citing him as an important part of folk history because the ultimate

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end of that uprising was entering Ukraine into Russian rule.

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So it's fine there.

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Putin is upset about people like Bandera and Chekhovitch being considered national heroes

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despite their involvement with the Nazis in World War II, but he has no problem with Helmansky

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because this isn't actually about denazification, it's about opposition to actual sovereignty

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for Ukraine, and the Nazi stuff is just a really good excuse.

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And I'm not going to pretend there isn't a lot of history in Ukraine that's fucking messy,

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and many national heroes have some bad baggage.

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It doesn't do any good to ignore those historical issues, but at the same time, this is not

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a cause for war.

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This is absurd.

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I mean, every historical issue is held by every country.

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I don't know many that are like, hey, guess what?

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We're free of baggage, guys!

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We did it!

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Right.

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You know?

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So the idea of here's your problem, we need to take care of that for you is insane until

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you take care of your own shit.

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I mean, I don't know if you've ever met this guy named Jesus.

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He had things about planks.

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He was like, get that shit out of your eye!

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But I mean, like the idea of Russia being like, hey man, Ukraine's history is problematic

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for us, so we're not going to deal with it, and we're going to head over there.

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It just seems really strange to, like, I think obviously that there should, you know, it

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would be good to reconsider heroes of folk history with problematic pasts.

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There's a reason there are no heroes to the squad.

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Right.

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You know, as they are, not as some sort of fantasy version, you know, warts and all that

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kind of thing.

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Sure.

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But I hear this and try and look at it through the prism of the right wing audience that,

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you know, this would be meant to get to, and I feel like they would be like, fuck this

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guy!

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I mean, imagine somebody being like, hey, Thomas Jefferson was a rapist.

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You know, just, he was.

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That's what he did.

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He raped people.

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So, so then, people wouldn't be like, oh, we should take statues down, or not name stuff

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after him.

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Or these people wouldn't.

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Or not quote shit like that.

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That's what I'm saying.

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Yeah.

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So if you are going to do it, you have to understand that if you did it to one of their

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guys, they wouldn't care.

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Mm-hmm.

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You know?

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Or they'd be pissed off at you.

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Probably.

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Yeah.

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So Putin goes on about this denazification, and Tucker asks, you know, you gotta give

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it up when there's something to give it up to.

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He asks a pretty good question here, but I think he was expecting a different response.

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Right.

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I say that Ukrainians are part of the one Russian people.

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They say, no, we are a separate people.

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Okay?

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Fine.

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Okay.

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If they consider themselves a separate people, they have the right to do so.

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But not on the basis of Nazism, the Nazi ideology.

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Would you be satisfied with the territory that you have now?

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I will finish answering the question.

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I just asked the question about neo-Nazism and denazification.

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See, that's a pretty good question from Tucker there, because it does get to the heart of

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this fake explanation for the invasion.

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Yep.

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If this is truly about denazification, then you can achieve that without taking any territory.

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So it should stand to reason that Putin should be perfectly satisfied with the existing borders.

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It's unsurprising that there's not an answer to that question.

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And I'm guessing that Tucker thought there would be an immediate, yes, of course.

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Of course I don't want to take more territory.

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It makes sense for Tucker, because this is the first time where he's like, well, at the

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very least, he's not going to be honest with me about this.

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Right?

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You'd think.

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That is the first thing.

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Well, of course I can ask this question, knowing that he will give me the lie.

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Instead, the answer is, I'm talking, jerk.

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Go fuck yourself.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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It's amazing.

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Yeah.

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So in terms of the evidence presented of this very, very serious, top-level, everywhere

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Nazi problem, is that guy who got a standing ovation in Canada.

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The president of Ukraine visited Canada.

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The story is well known, but being silenced in the Western countries.

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The Canadian parliament introduced a man who, as the speaker of the parliament said, fought

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against the Russians during the World War II.

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Well, who fought against the Russians during the World War II?

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Hitler and his accomplices.

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It turned out that this man served in the SS troops.

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He personally killed Russians, Poles and Jews.

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The SS troops consisted of Ukrainian nationalists who did this dirty work.

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The president of Ukraine stood up with the entire parliament of Canada and applauded

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this man.

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How can this be imagined?

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The president of Ukraine himself, by the way, is a Jew by nationality.

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Really my question is, what do you do about it?

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I mean, Hitler's been dead for 80 years, Nazi Germany no longer exists, and so I think what

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you're saying is you want to extinguish or at least control Ukrainian nationalism, but

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how?

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How do you do that?

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By extinguishing or controlling Ukraine.

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It's very simple.

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Listen to me.

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Your question is very subtle, and I can tell you what I think.

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Do not take offense.

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Go fuck yourself.

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Of course.

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This question appears to be subtle.

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It is quite pesky.

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You say Hitler has been dead for so many years.

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All right, I'm listening.

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80 years.

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But his example lives on.

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People who exterminated Jews, Russians, and Poles are alive, and the president, the current

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president of today's Ukraine, applauds him in the Canadian parliament, gives a standing

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ovation.

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Can we say that we have completely uprooted this ideology if what we see is happening

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today?

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That is what the Nazification is in our understanding.

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We have to get rid of those people who maintain this concept and support this practice and

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try to preserve it.

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This is referring to the incident where a 98-year-old man named Jaroslav Hanka was invited

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to the Canadian parliament when Zelensky was visiting.

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We recall.

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Yes, he was given a round of applause and a standing ovation only for it to later come

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out that he fought for the Nazis in World War II.

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All of this was due to irresponsibility by the House of Commons speaker, Anthony Rota,

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whose office has claimed that Hanka's son contacted them and asked if he could attend

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the speech.

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Rota accepted the request and then took it upon himself to single Hanka out for a round

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of applause to the surprise of Justin Trudeau, Zelensky, and Hanka's own family.

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They didn't know that was going to happen.

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After the details of Hanka's war history were reported, Rota resigned from office and everybody

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issued embarrassed apologies.

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This was not a matter of Ukraine celebrating Nazis as much as it was an instance of the

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Speaker of the House of Commons making a grave error which played directly into the propaganda

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that Putin's regime has used to justify their invasion.

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What you see here is pretty interesting, though, because Tucker has a decent question that

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he's asking which is going nowhere.

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He's asking, in essence, what does denazification entail?

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What are the steps to doing this?

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Instead of giving an answer, you see Putin ignore the question and continue down his

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path or generally describe what he sees as the problem with no mention of what the solution

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is because the solution is control Ukraine.

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Yeah, I mean, I'm taking over Ukraine.

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I don't know how to be more clear without telling you the truth, right?

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The general sense that you get from this interview is two men both not getting what they want.

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All of the pieces are right here to be a messaging and narrative bonanza, but it's just not coming

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together right for either of them.

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Putin's too stubborn and boring for Tucker to use correctly, and Putin is entirely off

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in terms of what the right messaging should be for an interview like this.

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It's not adversarial enough to pretend to be real journalism, but on the same page,

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it's not really potent propaganda either.

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It's weird.

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It is.

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It is like maybe there's just the central reality for Putin is he is not used to talking

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to people who don't inherently understand that he can kill them.

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Right?

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Maybe.

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He's used to talking to world leaders, but that's different.

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You look at them as equals.

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Right.

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Tucker's out of his station.

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This is somebody who's not an equal who believes that Putin can't kill him, which is unusual

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for Putin.

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Probably.

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I imagine that that's a very difficult lane to change into once you're so used to people

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believing that you can kill them at all the time.

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Sure.

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Sure.

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So Tucker tries to get specific again.

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He tries to like, what does this entail?

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What is denazification in practice?

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Jesus.

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I don't think we get an answer.

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My question was a little more specific.

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It was of course not a defense of Nazis, neo or otherwise.

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It was a practical question.

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You don't control the entire country.

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You don't control Kev.

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You don't seem like you want to.

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So how do you eliminate a culture or an ideology or feelings or a view of history in a country

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that you don't control?

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What do you do about that?

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You know, as strange as it may seem to you, during the negotiations at Istanbul, we did

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agree that we have it all in writing.

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Neo-Nazism would not be cultivated in Ukraine, including that it would be prohibited at the

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legislative level.

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Mr. Carson, we agreed on that.

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This, it turns out, can be done during the negotiation process, and there's nothing humiliating

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for Ukraine as a modern civilized state.

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Is any state allowed to promote Nazism?

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It is not, is it?

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That is it.

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Well...

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Talking to the...

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Ah!

Unknown Speaker (01:33:29.920)

Ah!

Unknown Speaker (01:33:30.920)

Ah!

Unknown Speaker (01:33:31.920)

We are!

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Huh.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:33.920)

Is there anything that would allow a, like disallow a Nazi from running for office in

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the United States?

Unknown Speaker (01:33:39.520)

No.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:41.399)

I don't know if there is.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:42.600)

Well, I mean...

Unknown Speaker (01:33:43.600)

I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:44.600)

Maybe if you were like a literal member of the Nazi party or something, that might be

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a party that's banned.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:49.479)

Well, that's a question that I wondered a long time ago, which is, you know, we negotiated

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peace with Germany.

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Did we ever negotiate peace with Nazis?

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You know what I mean?

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Like, are we still at war with Nazis and not Germany?

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Like, can I still go kill Hitler?

Unknown Speaker (01:34:07.960)

Hitler's obviously still alive in Argentina.

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Can I go kill him?

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Putin did sort of imply.

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Maybe not dead.

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Maybe not dead.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:16.640)

Yeah, I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:18.720)

That's interesting.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:19.720)

I mean, obviously, if your goal is just for them to ban Nazis in the legislature or whatever...

Unknown Speaker (01:34:26.319)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:27.319)

Cool.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:28.319)

Well, I mean, first off, obviously, you cannot become president if you are not from or born

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in the United States.

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So that's first off.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:37.560)

But I don't know how you would fight for the Nazis otherwise.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:40.439)

Well, I mean, like from Putin's perspective, if that's his goal, he's not going about it

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well.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:47.720)

No.

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No.

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This doesn't...

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Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:51.720)

See, that's kind of...

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That's just...

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One of the reasons that this is so strange is that there are only two conversations that

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can truly be had between them, which is we're lying on the same page or we're telling the

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truth on the same page.

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They can't be both lying and telling the truth on separate pages.

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Well, that's...

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That's insane.

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But that's what it is.

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That's why we're dealing with insanity.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:11.880)

Yeah.

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There's different genres of lies.

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Yeah.

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And I pronounce that fancy on purpose.

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So Tucker asks if there's going to be peace talks.

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What are we doing?

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I don't know.

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Tucker's trying to negotiate peace.

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Weird.

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Will there be talks and why haven't there been talks about resolving the conflict in

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Ukraine?

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Peace talks.

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There have been.

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They reached a very high stage of coordination of positions in a complex process, but still

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they were almost finalized.

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But after we withdrew our troops from Kiev, as I have already said, the other side threw

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away all these agreements and obeyed the instructions of Western countries, European countries,

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and the United States to fight Russia to the bitter end.

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Sounds true.

Unknown Speaker (01:36:11.840)

You're a trustworthy dude.

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Moreover, the President of Ukraine has legislated a ban on negotiating with Russia.

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He signed a decree forbidding everyone to negotiate with Russia.

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But how are we going to negotiate if he forbade himself and everyone to do this?

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So that Istanbul agreement wasn't finalized, so there's no going back on it that was done

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by Ukraine.

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They didn't enter into that agreement.

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In some part because Western countries asserted that they had their support, but equally because

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they had no faith that Russia would adhere to the terms, and because it would have been

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impossible for them to actually agree to it.

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Zelensky banned Ukrainian citizens from having negotiations, but not with Russia, specifically

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with Russia while Putin is in charge.

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There's no ban that Zelensky can make that would ban other countries from engaging in

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negotiations, and there's no reason that random citizens should be trying to negotiate with

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Putin.

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It's an absurd complaint for Putin to have here, honestly.

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It's very bizarre.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it is so much like I don't know how to understand people who just have no check

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on themselves.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Like, and it's the same thing with Alex.

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It's the same thing where it's like, if you have no check on yourself for a long enough

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period of time, you can't keep it together long enough to do something that makes sense.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:32.739)

You know, like, again, Putin and Tucker together right now should be working on creating the

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next Trump dictatorship.

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So then Russia, China, and the United States are all the three largest powers, all of which

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have an alliance based upon a fascist false democracy kind of idea, right?

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That's the idea.

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That gives Russia freedom, China freedom, and then the United States has to deal with

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Trump.

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You know?

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We have to suck it up.

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That he's doing this with Tucker is insane to me.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:05.960)

I agree with you, and I think that that would be of the agendas that both Tucker and Putin

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have-

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It has to be.

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... and have illustrated.

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Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:16.439)

I think the reason why that expectation that you have is not being in any way really fulfilled

Unknown Speaker (01:38:22.199)

is that Tucker is trying to weave towards those narratives.

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You'd think-

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He is.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:27.439)

Yeah.

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With the deep state stuff and-

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Right.

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... these attempts to weave into that.

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And then on Putin's side, he doesn't think that that's what this interview is.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:36.560)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:37.560)

You know?

Unknown Speaker (01:38:38.560)

He's there doing an interview about Ukraine generally, and he's basically doing a history

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lesson about why he's right to take Ukraine because it's not a country, and then complaining

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about everybody who's done him wrong in all these talks and this weak denazification excuse.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:54.800)

Yeah.

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So he doesn't-

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That is Alex.

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... if he were there in the capacity of like, let's spit some shit, then maybe it would

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go differently.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:07.359)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:08.359)

Maybe it would.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:09.359)

It is so much, man, malignant narcissists just have this thing, you know?

Unknown Speaker (01:39:14.279)

Like listening to Putin go on and on about his legal cases.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:18.159)

Mm.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:19.159)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:20.159)

You know?

Unknown Speaker (01:39:21.159)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:22.159)

These people that like, the Clintons, Hillary is in together with them, the deep state to

Unknown Speaker (01:39:25.319)

get me under the Sandy Hook thing, you know, it's like, this is the same shit.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:29.520)

It's similar.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:30.520)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:31.520)

So he said that Zelensky has banned negotiation.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:34.479)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:35.479)

And Tucker follows up with like, well, you would be negotiating with the United States,

Unknown Speaker (01:39:38.960)

right?

Unknown Speaker (01:39:39.960)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:40.960)

I mean, it wouldn't matter.

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That would be the idea.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:42.960)

Well, but you wouldn't be speaking to the Ukrainian president, you'd be speaking to

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the American president.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:46.060)

When was the last time you spoke to Joe Biden?

Unknown Speaker (01:39:49.319)

I cannot remember when I talked to him.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:52.079)

I do not remember.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:53.560)

We can look it up.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:54.560)

You don't remember?

Unknown Speaker (01:39:55.560)

No.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:56.560)

Why?

Unknown Speaker (01:39:57.560)

Do I have to remember everything?

Unknown Speaker (01:40:00.760)

I have my own things to do.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:02.560)

We have domestic political affairs.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:04.199)

Well, he's funding the war that you're fighting, so I would think that would be memorable.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:09.560)

Damn.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:10.560)

Well, yes, he funds, but I talked to him before the special military operation, of course.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:16.579)

And I said to him then, by the way, I will not go into details.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:20.359)

I never do.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:21.399)

But I said to him then, I believe that you are making a huge mistake of historic proportions

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by supporting everything that is happening there in Ukraine by pushing Russia away.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:32.840)

I told him, told him repeatedly, by the way, I think that would be correct if I stop here.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:39.479)

What did he say?

Unknown Speaker (01:40:43.840)

Ask him, please.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:44.840)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:45.840)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:46.840)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:47.840)

He's a general character of the Alex stories too, like the, I'll leave it at that.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:53.840)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:54.840)

I gave him everything that they needed to know.

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I told them everything.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:56.840)

I'm the one who's really trying to be, or I'm trying to be nice to everyone.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:00.119)

I mean more along the lines of relaying secretive information and then being like, I'll stop

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right there.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:06.319)

Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:07.319)

You've told half the story.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:08.319)

If I get acting like you're being some kind of having decorum, it's ridiculous.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:12.880)

I'm going to stop there because it's better for you to imagine the details than it is

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for me to tell you the incredibly boring and uninteresting ones.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:20.199)

Exactly.

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Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:22.199)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:23.199)

So, Tucker asks the question of like, Hey man, bro, this looks like it could get bad.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:29.399)

Like this whole thing, it looks like it could spill into world war three.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:32.520)

I think, I think that is one of the interesting things about that exchange is I think Tucker

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legitimately forgot for a second that Putin has met far more than one president, you know,

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and they don't mean anything to him.

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They're meaningless.

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Yeah.

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The presidents are meaningless to him because they're going to be gone and he's going to

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be there.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:52.359)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:53.359)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:54.359)

There's a permanence.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:55.359)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:56.359)

So yeah, this could get into world war three though, bro.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:58.039)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:59.039)

From the outside, it seems like this could devolve or evolve into something that brings

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the entire world into conflict and could initiate some nuclear launch.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:09.300)

And so why don't you just call Biden and say, let's work this out.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:14.159)

Are you stupid?

Unknown Speaker (01:42:18.760)

What's there to work out?

Unknown Speaker (01:42:20.279)

It's very simple.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:21.500)

So he did say that.

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We have contacts through various agencies.

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I will tell you what we are saying on this matter and what we are conveying to the U

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S leadership.

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If you really want to stop fighting, you need to stop supplying weapons.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:39.600)

It will be over within a few weeks.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:42.380)

That's it.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:43.479)

And then we can agree on some terms before you do that, stop what's easier.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:50.760)

Why would I call him?

Unknown Speaker (01:42:51.760)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:52.760)

That's pretty clear.

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I mean, I think that's, I think anyone who's paid any attention knows this is pretty much

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his position.

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Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:58.220)

I mean, we will win and then we'll talk.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:00.640)

I will say, I will say that one of the ways to keep from getting slammed into your locker

Unknown Speaker (01:43:05.560)

is to accept the swirly, you know, just, uh, just take it and then take it for the rest

Unknown Speaker (01:43:10.520)

of your life forever and I won't throw you in your locker.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:14.399)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:15.399)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:16.399)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:17.399)

Yep.

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Stop fighting back and then this will be over.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:19.399)

Well, it won't ever be over.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:20.399)

Well, it will.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:21.399)

Well, I mean, one part of it will be, the rest of it will never be over.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:25.760)

Probably not, but it's all just bullshit.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:28.000)

It's all fake bullshit.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:29.000)

This idea that Russia is going to take any other countries or anybody else, I love it.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:34.399)

Do you think NATO is worried about this becoming a global war or a nuclear conflict?

Unknown Speaker (01:43:44.220)

At least that's what they're talking about.

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And they're trying to intimidate their own population with an imaginary Russian threat.

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This is an obvious fact.

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And thinking people, not Philistines, but thinking people, analysts, those who are engaged

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in real politics, just smart people understand perfectly well that this is a fake.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:08.439)

They're trying to fuel the Russian threat.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:10.439)

The threat I think you're referring to is a Russian invasion of Poland, Latvia, expansionist

Unknown Speaker (01:44:16.800)

behavior is, can you imagine a scenario where you sent Russian troops to Poland?

Unknown Speaker (01:44:27.399)

Only in one case, if Poland attacks Russia.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:30.720)

Why?

Unknown Speaker (01:44:32.079)

Because we have no interest in Poland, Latvia, or anywhere else.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:36.640)

Why would we do that?

Unknown Speaker (01:44:38.079)

We simply don't have any interest.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:40.600)

It's just threat-mongering.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:41.600)

Well, the argument, I know you know this, is that, well, he invaded Ukraine.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:46.880)

He has territorial aims across the continent.

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And you're saying unequivocally you don't.

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It is absolutely out of the question.

Unknown Speaker (01:45:04.279)

You just don't have to be any kind of analyst.

Unknown Speaker (01:45:07.159)

It goes against common sense to get involved in some kind of a global war.

Unknown Speaker (01:45:11.239)

Dude!

Unknown Speaker (01:45:12.239)

No, that's true.

Unknown Speaker (01:45:13.239)

I mean, it is bad news to get involved in a global war.

Unknown Speaker (01:45:15.279)

I can't tell you how many political leaders I know who have gotten involved in a fucking

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global war.

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So while it is true that it may be unlikely that Putin would invade Poland for very clear

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logistical reasons, there is absolutely zero reason to take what Putin or his administration

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say at face value.

Unknown Speaker (01:45:32.359)

On January 10th, 2022, his deputy foreign minister, Sergei Rychabov, said, quote, there

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are no plans or intentions to attack Ukraine.

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There is no reason to fear some kind of escalatory scenario.

Unknown Speaker (01:45:47.199)

Then Russia invaded Ukraine a little over a month later.

Unknown Speaker (01:45:49.239)

Sure, there is that.

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Even closer to the invasion, Putin said himself, quote, the facts are that Americans are artificially

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whipping up hysteria around an alleged Russian plot for the invasion.

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In 2014, just before invading and annexing Crimea, Putin explicitly said he was not going

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to annex Crimea and, quote, we will not go to war with the Ukrainian people.

Unknown Speaker (01:46:08.720)

There seems to be a bit of a habit of lying, particularly around invasion stuff that creates

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a credibility gap for Putin on this issue.

Unknown Speaker (01:46:15.640)

I'm going to tell you, I think most invasions during my lifetime have been based on lies.

Unknown Speaker (01:46:20.560)

And people saying they're not about to do it.

Unknown Speaker (01:46:22.600)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (01:46:23.600)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:46:24.600)

And not for nothing, in 2014, it was reported that former Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko

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had a private conversation with Putin where he threatened to invade Poland, Romania, Estonia,

Unknown Speaker (01:46:32.920)

Lithuania and Latvia.

Unknown Speaker (01:46:34.399)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:46:35.399)

Whether that indicated any actual ambition to do that, or if it was just some good old

Unknown Speaker (01:46:38.560)

fashioned dictator shit talk, you can decide for yourself.

Unknown Speaker (01:46:41.600)

But this, I take this with a heavy grain of salt.

Unknown Speaker (01:46:45.000)

I mean, there's a part of me that says this has nothing to do with anything, doesn't particularly

Unknown Speaker (01:46:50.920)

want Ukraine at all.

Unknown Speaker (01:46:53.359)

And that realistically, every foreign war is about domestic politics, if that makes

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sense.

Unknown Speaker (01:47:00.279)

Do you know what I mean?

Unknown Speaker (01:47:01.279)

I hear the word.

Unknown Speaker (01:47:02.279)

Something about this means, you know, in the 80s, Russia wasted trillions of dollars on

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Afghanistan, then America did, then Russia did, then America did again.

Unknown Speaker (01:47:16.000)

And now I think we're doing the same thing in Ukraine.

Unknown Speaker (01:47:18.199)

I don't think this has anything to do with resolving conflicts at all.

Unknown Speaker (01:47:21.560)

I really think rich leaders of countries just fucking have to do this shit to justify to

Unknown Speaker (01:47:27.279)

themselves why they exist.

Unknown Speaker (01:47:30.720)

Maybe there's a kernel of that, but then there's also strategic, you know, just sort of more

Unknown Speaker (01:47:36.359)

realistic versions or considerations on the ground that maybe this territory being unfriendly

Unknown Speaker (01:47:44.340)

to you or even hostile to you severely impacts you.

Unknown Speaker (01:47:48.760)

So maybe it's not so much a matter of, I need to control this, or this doesn't need to be

Unknown Speaker (01:47:55.279)

mine, but it needs to be mine, you know?

Unknown Speaker (01:47:58.000)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:47:59.000)

I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (01:48:01.399)

So Tucker has another question about Chuck Schumer.

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Schumer said that maybe troops might need to get sent to Ukraine.

Unknown Speaker (01:48:10.359)

Love it.

Unknown Speaker (01:48:11.359)

But not really.

Unknown Speaker (01:48:13.359)

One of our senior United States senators from the state of New York, Chuck Schumer, said

Unknown Speaker (01:48:18.079)

yesterday, I believe, that we have to continue to fund the Ukrainian effort or U.S. soldiers,

Unknown Speaker (01:48:26.520)

citizens could wind up fighting there.

Unknown Speaker (01:48:28.880)

How do you assess that?

Unknown Speaker (01:48:38.359)

This is a provocation and a cheap provocation at that.

Unknown Speaker (01:48:43.079)

I do not understand why American soldiers should fight in Ukraine.

Unknown Speaker (01:48:47.239)

There are mercenaries from the United States there.

Unknown Speaker (01:48:50.239)

The bigger number of mercenaries comes from Poland, with mercenaries from the United States

Unknown Speaker (01:48:54.800)

in second place, and mercenaries from Georgia in third place.

Unknown Speaker (01:48:59.720)

Well, if somebody has the desire to send regular troops, that would certainly bring humanity

Unknown Speaker (01:49:05.920)

to the brink of very serious global conflict.

Unknown Speaker (01:49:09.939)

This is obvious.

Unknown Speaker (01:49:11.420)

So this Chuck Schumer thing is exactly like what Tucker was reporting about Lloyd Austin

Unknown Speaker (01:49:20.039)

previously, that if you let Putin win in Ukraine, eventually NATO countries will be threatened

Unknown Speaker (01:49:26.560)

and we'll be forced to send troops.

Unknown Speaker (01:49:28.680)

So I think it's a little bit of a mischaracterization.

Unknown Speaker (01:49:31.079)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:49:32.079)

I mean, essentially the idea is, although, I mean, it is an admission that where we are

Unknown Speaker (01:49:39.960)

is circumstantial based on time.

Unknown Speaker (01:49:43.880)

You know, like, okay, so here's the good news.

Unknown Speaker (01:49:48.079)

We're not at war with Russia.

Unknown Speaker (01:49:50.159)

Bad news is if they win, we're at war with Russia.

Unknown Speaker (01:49:52.920)

You know?

Unknown Speaker (01:49:53.920)

So it is a matter...

Unknown Speaker (01:49:54.920)

If they win, we could be.

Unknown Speaker (01:49:55.920)

Well.

Unknown Speaker (01:49:56.920)

You know, there is a scenario where NATO countries aren't encroached.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:01.680)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:02.680)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:03.680)

But I mean, that's kind of the question, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:50:06.779)

In order to make sure that we don't all get dragged into a NATO versus Russia war, NATO

Unknown Speaker (01:50:13.180)

has to win the war in Ukraine with Russia.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:16.520)

You know, like it makes no sense.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:18.199)

It's very, it's very stupid.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:20.199)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:21.199)

But it is what it is.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:22.199)

War is all stupid.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:23.199)

War is all stupid.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:24.199)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:25.199)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:26.199)

And what is it good for?

Unknown Speaker (01:50:27.199)

Absolutely nothing.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:28.199)

Say it again.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:29.199)

I will.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:30.199)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:31.199)

Someday.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:32.199)

So I, you know, in response to this notion of sending troops, Putin has a little bit

Unknown Speaker (01:50:35.479)

of a, come on guys.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:36.800)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:37.800)

Don't you have anything better to do?

Unknown Speaker (01:50:40.760)

You have issues on the border, issues with migration, issues with the national...

Unknown Speaker (01:50:44.439)

Now we're doing it.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:45.439)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:46.439)

What should we be here for?

Unknown Speaker (01:50:47.439)

Come on, man.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:48.439)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:49.439)

America sucks.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:50.439)

So you should fight in Ukraine.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:54.600)

Wouldn't it be better to negotiate with Russia, make an agreement already understanding the

Unknown Speaker (01:50:59.920)

situation that is developing today, realizing that Russia will fight for its interests to

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the end and realizing this actually returned to common sense, start respecting our country

Unknown Speaker (01:51:12.640)

and its interests and look for certain solutions.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:17.880)

It seems to me that this is much smarter and more rational.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:21.399)

Come on guys.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:22.399)

You got your own problems.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:24.039)

See, I truly believe, I truly believe this is a good idea and it is, if any nation declares

Unknown Speaker (01:51:32.199)

war, the first person who should die should be the president or the king or whatever.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:36.520)

Just auto?

Unknown Speaker (01:51:37.520)

Automatic death.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:38.520)

If you want to declare war, boy, it better be worth killing yourself.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:41.359)

The price of admission?

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The ticket?

Unknown Speaker (01:51:43.960)

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:44.960)

No.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:45.960)

And it's just 100%.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:46.960)

If it really is worth doing, then it's worth dying for and you're the first person to go.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:51.279)

Wow.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:52.279)

I mean, you are the same person who suggested that presidents should have to be killed after

Unknown Speaker (01:51:55.520)

their terms.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:56.520)

I am.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:57.520)

I think world leaders have too much power and there's almost no way to check it.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:03.060)

That's what we're living through is unchecked power from world leaders.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:06.159)

The Supreme Court's a joke.

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Congress is a joke.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:10.119)

The president is a thousand years old.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:12.640)

It is ridiculous to have these people have this much power.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:16.600)

There is, there is an over poweredness.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:19.600)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:20.600)

So it is, it is very much like if you're going to have checks on this type of power, it has

Unknown Speaker (01:52:24.479)

to be absolute and it has to have nothing to do with votes.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:28.199)

It has to be like complete machine style.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:31.079)

Hey, no, I agree with you.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:33.239)

We should fight this war.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:34.520)

I think you are right.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:36.800)

That is true.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:37.800)

You still have to die.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:38.800)

It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, you still have to die because it's worth dying

Unknown Speaker (01:52:43.119)

for.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:44.119)

I, I, I see the beauty of the point that you're making in a literate, a literary sense, but

Unknown Speaker (01:52:50.560)

I think in terms of the real world, I don't, I don't know how much that works.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:56.279)

I mean, I think it would, I think it would cut down on a lot of war.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:00.079)

I think it would also probably preclude a lot of people from taking action when maybe

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they need to.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:06.439)

I would be interested to see if that's the case.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:08.979)

I don't know if we'd ever know.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:10.199)

I think, I think for a fact we never will.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:13.560)

Yeah, probably not.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:14.560)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:15.560)

So Putin has, you know, given the, come on guys, why?

Unknown Speaker (01:53:20.520)

And then Tucker takes a, takes the opportunity to ask a pretty direct question that he's

Unknown Speaker (01:53:24.760)

hoping will fuel some of his conspiracy narratives.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:28.520)

Who blew up Nord Stream?

Unknown Speaker (01:53:33.159)

You for sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:34.159)

I was busy that day.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:36.600)

Nate, do you have, do you have, I did not blow up Nord Stream, thank you though.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:47.159)

You personally may have an alibi, but the CIA has no such alibi.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:52.680)

Did you have evidence that NATO or the CIA did it?

Unknown Speaker (01:53:57.840)

Well, you know, I won't get into it.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:04.119)

I won't get into details.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:05.119)

But people always say in such cases, look for someone who is interested.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:10.359)

But in this case we should not only look for someone who is interested, but also for someone

Unknown Speaker (01:54:15.199)

who has capabilities.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:17.399)

Because there may be many people interested, but not all of them are capable of sinking

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to the bottom of the Baltic Sea and carrying out this explosion.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:25.539)

So it's a no then.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:26.800)

I'm interested.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:27.800)

I like that.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:28.800)

I like that answer because that answer is whoever I decide did it.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:32.479)

Key bono.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:33.760)

That'd be you.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:34.760)

Today it'll be you.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:35.760)

Oh, he directly, directly said it was Tucker.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:38.479)

And then tomorrow it will be somebody else depending on whether I need it to be them.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:42.439)

Yeah, that to me doesn't inspire confidence in the accusation.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:45.920)

You know, like this is, this is like, do you have evidence of this?

Unknown Speaker (01:54:50.520)

Who would like to do it?

Unknown Speaker (01:54:52.640)

This is why you only talk to people.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:55.680)

If you are a person who wants to lie constantly and never tell the truth and be full of bullshit,

Unknown Speaker (01:55:01.479)

you really should run your own country and only talk to people who are afraid you're

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going to kill them.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:05.319)

It makes things easier.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:06.319)

Yeah, man.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:07.319)

So Tucker asked a follow up to this, which again, somewhat to his credit, but I think

Unknown Speaker (01:55:12.039)

that he wants different answers than he's getting.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:14.479)

I am, I am shocked by this because I do think that it's so personal and petty on the part

Unknown Speaker (01:55:20.760)

of Tucker.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:21.760)

I think some of it, some of it is motivated from that place, but he asks if you have evidence,

Unknown Speaker (01:55:27.279)

why not provide it?

Unknown Speaker (01:55:28.279)

Put it out.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:29.279)

But I'm confused.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:30.279)

And that's the biggest act of industrial terrorism ever.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:33.920)

And it's the largest emission of CO2 in history.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:36.520)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:37.520)

So if you had evidence and presumably given your security services or Intel services,

Unknown Speaker (01:55:41.000)

you would that NATO, the U S CIA, the West did this, why wouldn't you present it and

Unknown Speaker (01:55:46.920)

win a propaganda victory?

Unknown Speaker (01:55:55.079)

In the war of propaganda, it is very difficult to defeat the United States because the United

Unknown Speaker (01:56:00.760)

States controls all the world's media and many European media.

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The ultimate beneficiary of the biggest European media are American financial institutions.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:10.600)

Don't you know that?

Unknown Speaker (01:56:13.840)

So it is possible to get involved in this work, but it is cost prohibitive.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:18.560)

So to speak, we can simply shine the spotlight on our sources of information, and we will

Unknown Speaker (01:56:24.560)

not achieve results.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:26.619)

It's never been clearer to me than that, that exact moment that Putin has no evidence that

Unknown Speaker (01:56:30.399)

the CIA or U S or NATO was involved in blowing up the Nord Stream pipeline.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:34.579)

That is the most, like, that's not even a great, you could just, just say yes, just

Unknown Speaker (01:56:39.079)

say yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:40.079)

I'm not saying it's impossible that any of those entities were involved in the blowing

Unknown Speaker (01:56:43.739)

it up, but just answer screams, I have no evidence, but I'll be damned if I'm ever going

Unknown Speaker (01:56:47.819)

to say that.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:48.819)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:49.819)

Why would I ever say that?

Unknown Speaker (01:56:50.819)

It's too expensive to do propaganda war.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:52.439)

Imagine why you wouldn't just, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:55.760)

Show it to me.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:56.760)

Here it is Tucker, from the archives.

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Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:58.920)

It doesn't matter if it's real or not.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:00.680)

You've got Russian people who deep fake shit on the regular.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:04.359)

You trotted out this letter earlier, you clearly have some preparation of sources.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:08.239)

Who fucking cares?

Unknown Speaker (01:57:09.239)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:10.239)

So, uh, that's a no on the, that's why I'm taking it anyway.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:13.199)

I will take it that way as well.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:14.500)

So Tucker wants to know what are the teams in the world?

Unknown Speaker (01:57:19.239)

From here, I think that, you know, he's trying to get his, you and me, the United States,

Unknown Speaker (01:57:24.520)

you know, we got Trump, you, uh, making this power alliance with Bolsonaro still in power

Unknown Speaker (01:57:30.279)

Orban, you know, we got these people and then the deep state demon folk or whatever.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:36.319)

That's what he's hoping will come out of this, but Putin doesn't even bite.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:39.760)

Oh boy.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:40.760)

If we're now a multipolar world, obviously we are.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:43.640)

Can you describe the blocks of alliances?

Unknown Speaker (01:57:46.359)

Who is in each side, do you think listen?

Unknown Speaker (01:57:53.880)

You have said that the world is breaking into two hemispheres.

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A human brain is divided into two hemispheres.

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One is responsible for one type of activities.

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The other one is more about creativity and so on, but it is still one in the same head.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:13.140)

The world should be a single hole.

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Creativity should be shared rather than a meant for the golden billion.

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That is the only scenario where the world could be stable, sustainable, and predictable

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until then.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:28.279)

While the head is split in two parts, it is an illness, a serious adverse condition.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:34.079)

It is a period of severe disease that the world is going through now.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:38.420)

So what are the teams?

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Creativity right.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:43.899)

And then chopping your head in half.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:45.439)

Sure.

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Logic and creativity.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:48.720)

I find this just a non-answer.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:54.760)

I feel like there's a lot of that.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:57.720)

There's a lot of non-answers in this.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:00.199)

I'm going to say that I think we're going to have to go back to the pervasiveness of

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movies in coloring real life.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:10.159)

Because I do also think Tucker is like, listen, James Bond villains are supposed to be cool

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and you are not cool.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:16.039)

You're a dork.

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You're shit.

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This is trash.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:19.760)

So this non-answer thing just keeps recurring.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:23.279)

Like here's another instance.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:26.079)

You're describing two different systems.

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You say the leader acts in the interest of the voters, but you also say these decisions

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are not made by the leader, they're made by the ruling classes.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:34.840)

You've run this country for so long, you've known all these American presidents.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:38.439)

What are those power centers in the United States, do you think?

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Who actually makes the decisions?

Unknown Speaker (01:59:45.420)

Say the deep say, say CIA, say something like that.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:51.079)

I don't know.

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God dammit!

Unknown Speaker (01:59:53.079)

America is a complex country, conservative on one hand, rapidly changing on the other.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:58.920)

It's not easy for us to sort it all out.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:01.039)

Who knows?

Unknown Speaker (02:00:03.840)

I feel like Tucker really wanted an answer there that works for him.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:08.840)

You see these setups of these questions, like he wanted Putin to say, I know damn well that

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the NATO and the US blew up the pipeline, whether or not he presents that evidence or

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not.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:22.640)

He wants that to be firmly stated.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:25.359)

When you say the teams, who are the teams?

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Talk about our conception, our right wing media conception of these teams.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:32.319)

We talk about the elites.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:33.479)

Who are the elites?

Unknown Speaker (02:00:34.479)

You know damn well what the answer is supposed to be, and these answers aren't coming.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:38.279)

No.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:39.279)

No.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:40.279)

It is like, Tucker, you came to power by saying inflammatory, bombastic things.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:47.319)

I came to power by being in the KGB saying lies and uninteresting things to people's

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faces and then murdering them when they're not looking.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:57.800)

Do you not understand why I'm not giving you a good interview right now?

Unknown Speaker (02:01:02.199)

In Russian, how do you say we are built different?

Unknown Speaker (02:01:06.439)

We just do things differently, man.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:08.399)

We just do things differently.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:09.399)

We got a different vibe.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:10.399)

Yeah, and this could have all been really smoothed away by a little bit of-

Unknown Speaker (02:01:15.000)

Just pre-interview shit.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:16.720)

Some kind of direction that this should take.

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Seriously.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:20.319)

I can't believe that fucking Jimmy Kimmel would have done a better interview, but it

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would have.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:24.560)

Probably.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:25.560)

Well, it wouldn't happen because Putin would reject that interview.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:28.760)

Probably.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:29.760)

So we get back to the notion of- You are my favorite late night TV host.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:34.479)

You are as good as Letterman ever was.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:37.439)

So we get back to the question of negotiations at the end to the war in Ukraine.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:42.560)

And who does actually have the power there?

Unknown Speaker (02:01:44.359)

That's a good question.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:45.739)

Do you think Zelensky has the freedom to negotiate a settlement to this conflict?

Unknown Speaker (02:01:55.199)

I don't know the details.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:56.479)

Of course, it's difficult for me to judge, but I believe he has in any case.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:03.039)

He used to have.

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His father fought against the fascists, Nazis, during World War II.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:09.239)

I once talked to him about this.

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I said- I'll kill you.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:13.600)

What are you doing?

Unknown Speaker (02:02:15.140)

Why are you supporting neo-Nazis in Ukraine today, while your father fought against fascism?

Unknown Speaker (02:02:21.300)

He was a frontline soldier.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:23.920)

I will not tell you what he answered.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:25.819)

This is a separate topic, and I think it's incorrect for me to do so.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:30.239)

But as to the freedom of choice, why not?

Unknown Speaker (02:02:33.260)

He came to power on the expectations of Ukrainian people that he would lead Ukraine to peace.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:39.479)

He talked about this.

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It was thanks to this that he won the elections overwhelmingly.

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But then, when he came to power, in my opinion, he realized two things.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:50.760)

Firstly, it is better not to clash with neo-Nazis and nationalists, because they are aggressive

Unknown Speaker (02:02:57.039)

and very active.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:58.760)

You can expect anything from them.

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And secondly, the U.S.-led West supports them and will always support those who antagonize

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with Russia.

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It is beneficial and safe.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:10.079)

So he took the relevant position, despite promising his people to end the war in Ukraine.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:16.279)

He deceived his voters.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:17.880)

But do you think at this point, as of February 2024, he has the latitude, the freedom, to

Unknown Speaker (02:03:23.760)

speak with you or your government directly about putting an end to this, which clearly

Unknown Speaker (02:03:26.680)

isn't helping his country or the world?

Unknown Speaker (02:03:29.920)

Can he do that, do you think?

Unknown Speaker (02:03:35.239)

Why not?

Unknown Speaker (02:03:37.920)

He considers himself head of state.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:40.279)

He won the elections.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:42.399)

Although we believe in Russia that the coup d'etat is the primary source of power for

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everything that happened after 2014.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:49.520)

What about 2004?

Unknown Speaker (02:03:51.479)

So the implication that Tucker is trying to get Putin to reinforce here is the idea that

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Zelensky is being forced to continue the war by Western forces who just want to fuck with

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Russia.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:00.439)

Putin does a good job of his non-answers here, but it seems like the general takeaway is,

Unknown Speaker (02:04:04.520)

yes, Zelensky does have that power.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:06.920)

He just doesn't want to stand up to Nazis because it's too hard.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:09.479)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:10.479)

And that doesn't work, really.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:11.479)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:12.479)

Zelensky's weak is only useful insofar as it's used by the West to do stuff.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:19.600)

Zelensky's weak to his own people is pointless.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:22.039)

That just means he should be replaced, I guess.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:24.640)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:25.640)

This is supposed to be more like deep state kind of stuff, and he's saying, no, Zelensky,

Unknown Speaker (02:04:31.680)

he was elected.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:32.680)

He's got the power there.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:33.680)

He can do what he wants.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:34.680)

Oh, man.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:35.680)

And you start to notice, like I said, I brought this up before, but there's this manner of

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speaking that's a habit of telling a private conversation that he's had with someone, and

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then gets to the point where someone else says something, and he's like, oh, prudence

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won't allow me to continue.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:49.359)

It's very weird.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:50.520)

It's a strange strategy that's used in conveying information.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:53.199)

I think you nailed it right on the head that is like, it's better for you to imagine the

Unknown Speaker (02:04:57.399)

rest of this.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:58.399)

Well, because I asked, here's what I asked Zelensky, Zelensky, your father fought the

Unknown Speaker (02:05:02.039)

Nazis.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:03.039)

Why are you on the Nazi side?

Unknown Speaker (02:05:04.039)

And he said back to me, are you fucking insane?

Unknown Speaker (02:05:06.840)

Have you lost your goddamn mind?

Unknown Speaker (02:05:08.439)

Are you out of your fucking mind?

Unknown Speaker (02:05:09.880)

This is the real world.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:10.880)

Do you not know what the fuck we are doing here?

Unknown Speaker (02:05:13.359)

It's not appropriate for me to continue this story.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:15.520)

Yeah, that's better.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:16.520)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:17.520)

Yeah.

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Stick with that one.

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The second point for Putin in the right wing media is this idea of his religiosity.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:24.359)

We heard that in the Lauren Witsky interview that Alex did on our last episode.

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There's this idea of him bringing in the church.

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That's what you got to do.

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Russian Orthodox.

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And so Tucker really wants to get into that here.

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Wants to talk about the church.

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Did you know that Zelensky banned Christianity?

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Oh my God.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:41.039)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:42.039)

You've described the connection between Russia and Ukraine.

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You've described Russia itself a couple of times as Orthodox.

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That's central to your understanding of Russia.

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You've said you're Orthodox.

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What does that mean?

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For you?

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You're a Christian leader by your own description.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:57.979)

So what effect does that have on you?

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You know, as I already mentioned in 988, God himself was baptized following the example

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of his grandmother, Princess Olga.

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Then he baptized his squad.

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And then gradually over the course of several years, he baptized all the roosts.

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It was a lengthy process from pagans to Christians.

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It took many years, but in the end, this orthodoxy, Eastern Christianity, deeply rooted itself

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in the consciousness of the Russian people.

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Usefully almost.

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Russia expanded and absorbed other nations who profess Islam, Buddhism, and Judaism.

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Russia has always been very loyal to those people who profess other religions.

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This is her strength.

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This is absolutely clear.

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I lie to people and then kill them when they're not looking.

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Do you not understand me?

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The main values are very similar, not to say the same, in all world religions I've just

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mentioned, which are the traditional religions of the Russian Federation, Russia.

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By the way, Russian authorities were always very careful about the culture and religion

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of those people who came into the Russian Empire.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:20.560)

Really?

Unknown Speaker (02:07:21.560)

Yeah, they're the pinnacle of religious tolerance.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:23.680)

Really?

Unknown Speaker (02:07:24.680)

Yeah, totally.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:25.680)

When I remember my Cossack history, I seem to recall them being very open and honest

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about their feelings vis-a-vis murdering a lot of people.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:35.439)

Well, a lot of that wouldn't even be relevant if he didn't bring up the 900s.

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There is that.

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There is that.

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It's his own fault.

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Right.

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But yeah, even in the present day, there is an intense religious intolerance.

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I mean, intolerance is fucking astonishing.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:49.399)

We discussed that on the last episode, a number of elements of that, and it's pretty wild

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for this to be just presented and be like, yep, this is what it is.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:02.039)

Yeah.

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No pushback whatsoever.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:04.039)

You know, now that you teased it at the beginning, that at the very end it changes, and it is

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... I can feel, me personally, I could only handle being lied to this much.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:16.560)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:17.560)

It can be frustrating, and after someone's been a dick to you.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:20.319)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:21.319)

But you're Tucker, so you're coming in fully prepared to be... The whole thing is a lie.

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Of course I expect you to lie.

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It's not going to bother me.

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I expect you to lie in the ways that work for me.

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Exactly.

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To have lasted this long without being like, all right, I'm done with this shit.

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Fuck it.

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Let's go.

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Let's be real then.

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If you're not going to do the right thing, by which I mean the most evil thing I can

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think of.

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I don't actually even think that that's the turn that I'm talking about.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:49.199)

It's not too far off, but you'll see.

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I think that there's a reason that things went the way they did.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:55.920)

It's not so much... It is a hard question, but I also really think Tucker thought it

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would go a different way.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:01.880)

Oh, okay.

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We'll see.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:03.880)

See, because for me, right now, I'm in this space of like... Listen, I did my best.

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Fuck you.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:10.960)

Let's do this.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:11.960)

Let's go.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:12.960)

You've been an asshole to me, and guess what?

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You can't kill me yet.

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You can't kill me yet, so fuck you, world leader.

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But you know me.

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I want to piss on world leader's faces all day.

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Would you like this non-poisoned Faberge egg?

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The idea of being supplicant to that fucker.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:31.000)

Well, there is a sense that you get that ramps up a little bit more, especially because the

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first hour, or half hour, excuse me, is this history lesson, and then...

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Oh my God.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:42.159)

Towards the back end, you do see him, Tucker, trying to inject his stuff.

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This is an opportunity for you to say the things that will play to the audience, and

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then just falling, or non-answer answers.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:57.199)

There is a slight frustration that is probably building, but I don't think it boils over

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in the way that you might normally expect someone to.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:06.279)

Yeah, and it is another example of if it were a Greenwald and Alex, Greenwald will just

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give you the answer.

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You'll say something and Greenwald will be like, yeah, it was really great that what

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you meant to say was blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:19.920)

But that's because there isn't really an inherent power imbalance between the two of them.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:23.119)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:24.119)

It is this power imbalance where you can't just be like, hey, Putin.

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That was great.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:27.500)

Now, what you meant to say, you know?

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Let's reframe the question.

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Right.

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So, all religions in Russia are actually united under patriotism.

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Absolutely.

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Coexist.

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Yeah.

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That's why everybody wears the bumper sticker.

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Yeah.

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And then Tucker asks a strange question that I think is... I think it would be impossible

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for anybody, world leader, even dictator or not, to answer.

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People who profess different religions in Russia consider Russia their motherland.

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They have no other motherland.

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We are together.

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This is one big family and our traditional values are very similar.

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I've just mentioned one big family, but everyone has his or her own family.

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And this is the basis of our society.

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Even if we say that the motherland and the family are specifically connected with each

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other.

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It is indeed the case, since it is impossible to ensure a normal future for our children

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and our families unless we ensure a normal, sustainable future for the entire country,

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for the motherland.

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That is why patriotic sentiment is so strong in Russia.

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The one way in which the religions are different is that Christianity is specifically a nonviolent

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religion.

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Jesus says, from the other cheek, don't kill.

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How can a leader who has to kill of any country, how can a leader be a Christian?

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How do you reconcile that to yourself?

Unknown Speaker (02:12:07.840)

Whoa.

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You can't.

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The end.

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Jesus said that shit.

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It is very easy when it comes to protecting one's family, one's homeland.

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We won't attack anyone once we own the world.

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Since the coup d'etat and the hostilities in Donbas begun, that's when they started.

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And we're protecting our people, ourselves, our homeland and our future.

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As for religion in general, you know, it's not about external manifestations.

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It's not about going to church every day or banging your head on the floor.

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I don't actually believe any of this shit.

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It is in the heart.

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It's in the heart.

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Yep.

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I make it up.

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Deep in here.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:07.300)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:08.300)

So that's an interesting...

Unknown Speaker (02:13:09.300)

First of all, it's an interesting question for Tucker to throw out because it's impossible.

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It's an impossible situation to negotiate.

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You cannot.

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That's the answer.

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You can't.

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But if you're the leader, you can't say that.

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Right.

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But I think that Putin's non-answer answer there is actually probably as good as you

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can do, which is define everything as self-defense and then all aggression is justified in the

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religious context.

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That's it?

Unknown Speaker (02:13:35.600)

What?

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You can't defend yourself?

Unknown Speaker (02:13:37.600)

No, of course you can.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:38.600)

No.

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I mean, admittedly, we don't live there and it's other people and they have their own

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government and their own little borders and their own back, da, da, da, da.

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Self-defense.

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But it's self-defense because they used to be us.

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Right.

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And now they're not.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:49.920)

Uh-huh.

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Let me tell you about...

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But guess what?

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They still are.

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Let me tell you about 900 AAB.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:54.920)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:55.920)

Oh, man.

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Great.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:57.920)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:58.920)

I mean, it is such a fun truth of like, listen, if you've read the book, you know you can't.

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The answer is you cannot do those things.

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You can't be both.

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Right.

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Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:10.199)

Well, I read the book and it turns out I can't be a Christian, so sorry.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:14.079)

That would be weird.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:15.079)

I believe in the religion and I do all that stuff, but I've given up the actual chance

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of a relationship with God and Christ in order to lead you as people.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:23.439)

That would be a strange thing for them to say.

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It would be a strange thing for them to say.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:25.720)

But I think that this is one of the instances of like, that is about what Tucker would have

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wanted as an answer from that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Which is, it plays up the importance of religion, it justifies being a Christian leader and

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still being at war.

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Yep.

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That works pretty well.

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And I think that it goes off rails.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:46.840)

Yeah, short of a crusade holy war type thing, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:49.960)

Well, this next clip is probably my favorite moment in the entire interview.

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Okay.

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So Putin's saying that the West is more pragmatic, whereas the East has more spiritual things

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going on.

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Sounds right.

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And so Tucker asks a follow-up question that is just like, I don't even know how to describe

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it.

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Just something falling.

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It's just a balloon deflating.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:13.199)

Okay.

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Western society is more pragmatic.

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Russian people think more about the eternal, about moral values.

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I don't know, maybe you won't agree with me, but Western culture is more pragmatic after

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all.

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I'm not saying this is bad.

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What makes it possible for today's golden billion to achieve good success in production,

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even in science and so on?

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There's nothing wrong with that.

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I'm just saying that we kind of look the same, but our minds are a little different.

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So do you see the supernatural at work as you look out across what's happening in the

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world now?

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Do you see God at work?

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Do you think to yourself, these are forces that are not human?

Unknown Speaker (02:16:09.079)

No to be honest, I don't think so.

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My opinion is that the development of the world community is in accordance with inherent

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laws and those laws are what they are.

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It's always been this way in the history of mankind.

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Some nations and countries rose, became stronger and more numerous, and then left the international

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stage losing the status they had accustomed to.

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There's probably no need for me to give examples, but we could start with the Genghis Khan and

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horde conquerors.

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I think we should start there.

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And then end with the Roman Empire.

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Great idea.

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It seems that there has never been anything like the Roman Empire in the history of mankind.

Unknown Speaker (02:16:55.440)

Sure, sure.

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So there's nothing quite as juicy as that moment where Tucker is like, do you see God

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at work?

Unknown Speaker (02:17:03.000)

Nah.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:04.000)

Nope.

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Not particularly.

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This is so much like, it is so much what I've talked about with the different factions

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of Christianity.

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Oh, the religious right is all of this stuff.

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But if you actually got a Catholic and a Southern Baptist to talk about what they believe at

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each other, they don't believe any of the same shit.

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This is Tucker and Putin- They have doctrinal differences.

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Oh, oh shit.

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We don't believe in the same shit at all.

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But the problem is that, especially through various avenues of the right wing media, they've

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presented Putin as this guy who's fighting the new world order and has the same ideas

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about divine battles and stuff like that.

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Tucker apparently has been fighting demons with Alex.

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And so this question is really meant to pay off that.

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Just give me something.

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And instead it is a complete rejection of the premise.

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Just no clue what they're dealing with.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:03.680)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:04.680)

It's just like, no, I think that history has trends and people-

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Amazing.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:09.079)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:10.079)

This is kind of like, I don't know if I would call it refreshing so much as like, I suppose

Unknown Speaker (02:18:21.299)

it would be refreshing for a moment to fall off a waterfall.

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To be on the edge and then go and then be in the air and be like, wow, this is cool.

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And then you die.

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That's kind of how I feel about this.

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I feel like, yeah, they should lie to each other and feel mad and hate each other.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:37.340)

That's fun.

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And then we die.

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But there's a moment of, I think you got to feel, I don't feel bad for him, but you got

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to feel bad for Tucker at the moment where Putin says, nope, do you see the supernatural

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at work?

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Fuck no.

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That's a moment where I don't feel bad for Tucker.

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That's a moment where I feel like Tucker would be 100% justified in being like, excuse me,

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I am mad at the crew.

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This is their fault.

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I should have seen this shit coming.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:09.239)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:10.239)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:11.239)

So he's talking about, Putin is talking about, he mentions the Roman empire and this prompts

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somewhat out of nowhere.

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Tucker to ask about the AI empire for God's sakes.

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It took five centuries for the Roman empire to just get off history, anything computers

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difference with what is happening now is that all the processes of change are happening

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at the much faster pace than in Roman science.

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So when does the AI empire start?

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Do you think you're asking increasingly more complicated questions to answer them?

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You need to be an expert in big numbers, big data, big numbers, like 10 mankind is currently

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facing many threats due to the genetic researches.

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It is now possible to create this superhuman, a specialized human being, a genetically engineered

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athlete, scientist, military men.

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There are reports that Elon Musk had already had the chip implanted in the human brain

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in the USA.

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What do you think of that?

Unknown Speaker (02:20:28.360)

Well, I think there's no stopping Elon Musk.

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He will do as he sees fit.

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Nevertheless, you need to find some common ground with him, search for ways to persuade

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him.

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I think he's a smart person.

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I truly believe he is.

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So you need to reach an agreement with him because this process needs to be formalized

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and subjected to certain rules.

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The answer there is like, you got to get that Elon Musk guy in check.

Unknown Speaker (02:20:59.000)

That guy's going to do some crazy shit.

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I know.

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I can't help but think like this was the perfect app.

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This made my waterfall thing make perfect sense because I feel like we just died.

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I feel like we just died.

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Like that was my feeling whenever he's like, Hey, you know, Elon has some good ideas, man.

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We're fucked.

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But he stopped.

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But he's also very clearly saying like, oh yeah, you got to stop his own devices.

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This is going to be bad.

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You got to regulate that shit.

Unknown Speaker (02:21:26.559)

He's a fucking idiot.

Unknown Speaker (02:21:27.559)

Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (02:21:28.559)

Which also kind of runs counter a bit to a lot of the larger, uh, you know, I mean it

Unknown Speaker (02:21:34.079)

all goes back to that question that Tucker was asking about the two teams, you know,

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like, uh, Putin, Musk, all of them are supposed to be on the same team.

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He's being like, you got to check that guy.

Unknown Speaker (02:21:43.760)

Yeah, it is.

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It is interesting because their false realities are both in response to a different reality.

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You know, like Putin's false reality is in response to a real politic kind of like, how

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do I maneuver world events?

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And Tucker's false reality is in response to like, how do I make liberals mad?

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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It is a little different.

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Yep.

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So now we get to the point where I am saying this shit changes.

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Yeah.

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Tucker decides to ask his last question.

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Sure.

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And this last question is something I never necessarily would have expected him to come

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out with.

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I appreciate all the time you've given us.

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I just got to ask you one last question and that's about someone who's very famous in

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the United States, probably not here, Evan Gershkowitz, who's the Wall Street Journal

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reporter.

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He's 32.

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Um, and he's been in prison for almost a year.

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Uh, this is a huge story in the United States and I just want to ask you directly without

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getting into the tales of it or your version of what happened.

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If as a sign of your decency, you would be willing to release him to us and we'll bring

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him back to the United States.

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We have done so many gestures of good will out of decency that I think we have run out

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of them.

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We have never seen anyone reciprocate to us in a similar manner.

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However, in theory we can say that we do not rule out that we can do that if our partners

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take reciprocal steps.

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So this has not been a hard-hitting interview at all.

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And I think that it's kind of a dud for both Tucker and Putin, but this was not something

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I expected.

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I, I, you saw my mouth was open.

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I was like, I genuinely did not.

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That was nuts.

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That was nuts.

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Are you just straight up asking Putin to release an American journalist?

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Release a hostage for fun.

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And Putin is basically saying that he'll release him if the price is right.

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Yeah.

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I mean, what are we talking about?

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It's a hostage situation, not a legitimate arrest that this person's gone through.

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This is bold for Tucker to try, but imagine if it had worked.

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I mean, that would be, I mean, there's a certain amount of fun with that of like, why not?

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I mean, the guy could literally just say, yeah, fuck it.

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You can have him.

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What does he care?

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I think that, I think that Tucker was really hoping that that's what you would do.

Unknown Speaker (02:24:18.680)

Yeah, maybe if I catch him off balance, then he'll just be like, I don't really care.

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And he would recognize the propaganda value of that, but what Tucker doesn't realize is

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that would also make Putin look incredibly weak.

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Real politic.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You can't just go around releasing hostages to any old journalist that quote unquote tries

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to interview.

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And I need to get something for this hostage that I have, otherwise I would have released

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him already.

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Otherwise it's not really a hostage situation.

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I'm just keeping a guy at my house.

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Right.

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Now here is where there's a distinction between, I think what Tucker is doing and something

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that hits more in the realm of hard question.

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Yeah.

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Hard question is talking about this and being confrontational about it.

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What Tucker is doing is trying to create an incredible scene where he gets this guy released.

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100%.

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This is about Tucker being a hero.

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Showing a yes to it as opposed to just highlighting an issue because it's the first thing he asks

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is will you release him to us so we can take him home?

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Amazing.

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Which I mean the impetus isn't wrong.

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No.

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I guess.

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I mean at that point though, that's not a serious question.

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You know, it is, it is like, boy, it's a long shot.

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You might as well be like, Hey, you want to participate in a stunt?

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Actually you don't even really need to give them back.

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Hey, would you?

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It's like a proposal at a baseball game.

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As a show of your decency, would you agree to withdraw from Ukraine?

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Yeah.

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I mean it is, it is, it is so much that like, yeah, fuck it.

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I'll say yes, but I'll change my mind in two seconds.

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This isn't real.

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It's not.

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But Tucker had no reason necessarily to bring up Evan Gershkovich.

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No, he really didn't.

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There is no reason to, based on the premise and the entire track of this interview, but

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he did.

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And that is a choice.

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And it's a choice that I cannot, not commend in some way.

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I mean, I suppose, I don't know.

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But it does something real fucked up about this because one, Gershkovich isn't a real

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person now.

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Not to Tucker.

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If he'd saved his life, Tucker would just call him every week and be like, you know,

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your life belongs to me.

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Tucker's a fucking insane, insane, malignant, narcissist, psychopath.

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I'm not sure if it's that far or whatever, but it does reveal something.

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And that is through this entire interview, Tucker has been sitting on a very clear awareness

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that Putin has imprisoned a journalist for the sake of using them as a hostage negotiation.

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So he has that awareness in his mind as he's having this sort of impotent, bizarre conversation.

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That's weird.

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Yeah, that is so weird.

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That is so weird.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:57.639)

Okay, well, it does make sense if you actually believe somehow, some way, that Putin is a

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good guy, which is insane.

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Or would be enough of a calculating person to recognize the value in appearing to be

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a good guy.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Especially with this interview being set up to make it look like Putin is the good guy.

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He's not the aggressor.

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He's the one trying to make peace.

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He's the one trying to be the hero, right?

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That's the premise established through Tucker's coverage in the past and a lot of the picture

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that's been allowed to be painted.

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Right.

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So then if Putin knows this, then Putin knows Americans and our movies and loves that shit.

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And when Tucker does this, Putin will be like, you know what?

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I am the good guy.

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This will prove it.

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This will prove everybody in America is lying about Russia.

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That'll make Trump the president, et cetera, all of that stuff, right?

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It's so short-sighted.

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It's so stupid.

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It doesn't recognize that, okay, now he releases him.

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That means that he's been holding a journalist hostage for a year and he can just flippantly

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decide to release him for PR purposes.

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And that's an additional problem that Tucker had to have every reason to know this wouldn't

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work.

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So what was he doing?

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That's why it drops my jaw.

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The issue of release him to us is really where the rubber meets the road and where things

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are a little different for me.

Unknown Speaker (02:28:35.719)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Like demanding he be released is one thing.

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Release him to his family.

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Release him to us now so we can put it on TV.

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And when you take him back, you have a big crescendo for this thing.

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It's just, it's weird.

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Be part of our show.

Unknown Speaker (02:28:51.879)

Yeah.

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Are we doing a show or a serious thing?

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Are we doing a show or a serious thing?

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And you said serious thing like a fucking idiot because you think that you're lying

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the right way to a liar.

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Mm-mm.

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Mm-mm-mm.

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Amazing.

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Can't bullshit a bullshitter.

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Amazing.

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So the issue is that Putin believes that Gershkovich was spying.

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He was arrested for espionage.

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And so this is discussed.

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And Tucker is like, he's not a spy.

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Yeah, obviously.

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What is happening?

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I think what makes this, and it's not my business, but what makes this difference is the guy's

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obviously not a spy.

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He's a kid.

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And maybe he was breaking your law in some way, but he's not a super spy and everybody

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knows that.

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And he's being held hostage in exchange, which is true.

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With respect, it's true.

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And everyone knows it's true.

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So maybe he's in a different category.

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Maybe it's not fair to ask for somebody else in exchange for letting him out.

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Maybe it degrades Russia to do that.

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You know, you can give different interpretations to what constitutes a spy.

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But there are certain things provided by law.

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If a person gets secret information and does that in a conspiratorial manner, then this

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is qualified as espionage.

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And that is exactly what he was doing.

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He was receiving classified confidential information, and he did it covertly.

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Maybe he did that out of carelessness or his own initiative.

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Considering the sheer fact this is qualified as espionage, the fact has been proven as

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he was caught red-handed when he was receiving this information.

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If it had been some far-fetched excuse, some fabrication, something not proven, it would

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have been a different story then.

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But he was caught red-handed when he was secretly getting confidential information.

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What is it, then?

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But are you suggesting he was working for the U.S. government or NATO, or he was just

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a reporter who was given material he wasn't supposed to have?

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Those seem like very different things.

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I don't know who he was working for.

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But I would like to reiterate that getting classified information in secret is called

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espionage, and he was working for the U.S. Special Services, some other agencies.

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It's a pretty chilling picture we're getting here right at the end of this interview.

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In the span of the last, like, ten seconds of that clip, Putin deflects a question from

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Tucker about whether he thinks that Evan was a spy or just a journalist saying, I don't

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know who he works for, only to immediately after that say he was working for U.S. Special

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Services.

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Yeah.

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That's weird.

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I really think that the First Amendment people who love Putin so much really need to take

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a hard look in the mirror.

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It seems very strange that someone could possibly watch this interview and not come out with

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their feelings about both dudes seriously diminished.

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Tucker looks very foolish and kind of incompetent through most of the interview, but I would

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be dishonest if I didn't say that this was a moment that I would not have predicted.

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I wouldn't have predicted it from any mainstream journalist.

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Probably.

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That's for sure.

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It's a legitimately tough question that he's posing to Putin.

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The rest of this has not been very intense, and Tucker's had zero control over the interview

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from the jump, but you've got to give it a point where there's a point deserved, and

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pushing back on this is probably pretty fucking scary.

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This is one of the wildest, I think, interviews that I've ever halfway heard.

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Well, I think if you heard the whole thing, you'd be more bored.

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I would be far more bored.

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This is so much one of Putin's stories.

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As long as you don't listen to the interview, your imagination of the details is way better.

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At the same time, what this exists at from a distance, if you don't microscope this,

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I find it so fascinating that both of them have kind of come to the conclusion that this

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should just be, you know, we'll just let this one fade into the dust.

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You know?

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Yeah, I can understand it.

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I do too, but at the same time, it just seems like there should be a different result.

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I think the result should be a legitimate reassessment of the American right wing of

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their opinions about Putin.

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100%.

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You saw what the guy- I think Tucker accidentally created a portrait

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of somebody who's a blowhard, believes he deserves to take Ukraine, and is hostile towards

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journalism.

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It is so funny because it is like, I'm getting my red dawn up.

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I'm feeling it.

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You know?

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I'm feeling my, like, Russia's not taking my- like, I'm feeling it in there.

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Just listening to Putin lie to me.

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I'm like, fuck yeah, we'll fucking Reagan all the way.

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You know?

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Like, it's that bad.

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And somehow the right wing is like, this is the good guy.

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Amazing.

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It really is bizarre to not reconsider if-

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I mean, how can you hear this and even lie to yourself about the lies?

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The lies themselves are fucking horrifying.

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So Putin's saying, hey, look, we're negotiating this shit, I'm not going to give him to you,

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that kind of thing.

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What are you talking about, you child?

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And I think through Putin's conversation that he has around trying to justify why this person

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was a spy, I think Tucker gets a little bit of a second wind in him.

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You first wind, honestly.

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Oh, yeah.

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Let me tell you a story about a person serving a sentence in an allied country of the US.

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That person, due to patriotic sentiments, eliminated a bandit in one of the European

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capitals.

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Eliminated a bandit?

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During the events in the Caucasus.

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Do you know what he was doing?

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I don't want to say that, but I will do it anyway.

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He was laying our soldiers, taken prisoner, on the road and then drove his car over their

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heads.

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What kind of person is that?

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Can he even be called human?

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But there was a patriot who eliminated him in one of the European capitals.

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Whether he did it of his own volition or not, that is a different question.

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I mean, that is a completely different, I mean, it is a 32-year-old newspaper reporter.

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He committed something different.

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He is not just a journalist, I reiterate, he is a journalist who was secretly getting

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confidential information.

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Yes, it is different, but still, I am talking about other people who are essentially controlled

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by the U.S. authorities, wherever they are serving a sentence.

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There is an ongoing dialogue between the special services.

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This has to be resolved in a calm, responsible and professional manner.

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They are keeping in touch, so let them do their work.

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I do not rule out that the person you refer to, Mr. Gershkovitz, may return to his motherland.

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By the end of the day, it does not make any sense to keep him in prison in Russia.

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We want the U.S. special services to think about how they can contribute to achieving

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the goals our special services are pursuing.

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We are ready to talk.

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Moreover, the talks are underway, and there have been many successful examples of these

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talks crowned with success.

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Unfortunately, this is going to be crowned with success as well, but we have to come

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to an agreement.

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I also want him to return to his homeland at last.

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I am absolutely sincere, but let me say once again, the dialogue continues.

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The more public we render things of this nature, the more difficult it becomes to resolve them.

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Everything has to be done in a calm manner.

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I wonder if that is true with the war, though, also.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:19.040)

I guess I want to ask one more question, and maybe you do not want to say so for strategic

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reasons, but are you worried that what is happening in Ukraine could lead to something

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much larger and much more horrible, and how motivated are you just to call the U.S. government

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and say, let's come to terms?

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Fuck you.

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Not at all.

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What are you fucking talking about?

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Go away.

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I already said that we did not refuse to talk.

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We're willing to negotiate.

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It is the Western side, and Ukraine is obviously a satellite state of the U.S.

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It is evident.

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I do not want you to take it as if I'm looking for a strong word or an insult, but we both

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understand what is happening.

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This is such a wild end to the interview, because it doesn't tonally match the rest

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of this at all.

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Yeah.

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Tucker is taking the reins, and it almost feels like he's been emboldened by asking

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about releasing this journalist, and I think a big part of that is that in order to justify

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jailing a journalist, Putin throws out this wild story about a patriot killing a bandit

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and being arrested.

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Yeah.

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This is so disconnected from the issue at hand, which is telling, and it shows weakness

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in Putin's position, needing to grasp that far to make excuses.

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Now Tucker's throwing out a somewhat veiled accusation that Putin's inaction on reaching

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out to the United States to work towards a peace deal is somehow analogous to the situation

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with holding this journalist for the sake of a prisoner exchange.

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The implication of this question branching off the talk about the imprisoned journalist

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would lead one to think that Tucker is saying that the situation in Ukraine is something

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that Putin is holding hostage, that he could release if he was given the right price, and

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Putin's refusal to open the negotiation runs the risk of causing a broader disaster.

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Correct.

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That mentality runs counter to the story about the war that's been told through all of right-wing

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media, including Tucker's work, and it's dissonant with this interview itself.

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That could be a really decent moment, but Putin's able to undercut it by saying, come

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on, man, we both know that Ukraine's a puppet state of the United States, and Tucker can't

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argue with that because he said that a ton of times.

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He's the one who said it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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This is one of the reasons why Tucker is ill-equipped to do this interview, because he can't really

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follow through with points that can get around Putin's dodges.

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He's hamstrung by his own narratives, and it undercuts what is potentially a pretty

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tough moment there.

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This is another part of... This is just fascinating, where Tucker tries to do the throw-to-commercial

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type wrap-up, where he says, thank you for your time, I hope you let him out, and Putin

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laughs and keeps talking.

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Putin wasn't going to let Tucker have that sting, so he goes on, and Tucker needs to

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reassert his power, so he launches into that question about the war, and Putin's in action

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on negotiating an end to it.

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This is somewhat confrontational, but you get a clear sense that this path of conversation,

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if it hadn't have happened, then Tucker wouldn't have asked that question, which is weird.

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It does still have so much of the feeling of it being personal.

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Yeah.

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He couldn't... I don't even know if that one was thought... I think if somebody shows

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weakness in an interview, Tucker just can't not.

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Especially someone who's being a dick to him.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I think that there's a lot going on, and a lot of it is based on feelings.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, this is definitely one of those... This is one of those Napoleon scenarios, where

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it's like, listen, you got to kill him.

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You can't exile him to an island, because if he's still alive, he's going to come back.

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You got to take him out.

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No, you can't get off that island.

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You can't get... Yeah, you can't let this happen.

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Putin will not stop.

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There's no reason for him to- What about a Ghosts of Mars situation?

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There's just no... It's like... There's just one thing to do, or let him take over

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everything.

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Well, Tucker has some rejoinders that he can throw in, and that is like, hey man, of course

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Ukraine's a satellite of the United States.

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Yeah, of course.

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Of course.

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Obviously.

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Yeah.

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We're already past that.

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But then, what does that imply?

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Oh.

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Dozens of billions of US dollars are going to Ukraine.

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There's a huge influx of weapons.

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In this case, you should tell the current Ukrainian leadership to stop and come to negotiating

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table rescind this absurd decree.

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We did not refuse.

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Sure, but you already said it.

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I didn't think you meant it as an insult, because you already said correctly, it's been

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reported that Ukraine was prevented from negotiating a peace settlement by the former British prime

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minister acting on behalf of the Biden administration.

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So, of course, they're a satellite.

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Big countries control small countries.

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That's not new.

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And that's why I asked about dealing directly with the Biden administration, which is making

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these decisions, not President Zelensky of Ukraine.

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Well, if the Zelensky administration in Ukraine refused to negotiate, I assume they did it

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under the instruction from Washington.

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Washington believes it to be the wrong decision.

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Let it abandon it.

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Let it find a delicate excuse so that no one is insulted.

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Let it come up with a way out.

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It was not us who made this decision.

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It was them.

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So, let them go back on it.

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That is it.

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That's it.

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It's everybody's fault.

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Boris Johnson did say the Ukraine shouldn't accept the terms of Putin's deal, but there's

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no evidence that he strong-armed them into that position at all.

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Ukrainian representatives indicated they were inclined not to accept the deals Russia was

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offering, partially because they had no reason to trust that Putin would live up to his end.

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But now we've entered into a somewhat paradoxical world.

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Ukraine is a satellite country of the United States, so there's no reason for Putin to

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try to negotiate with them.

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But also Zelensky wouldn't have made that decree that Ukrainians can't negotiate with

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Putin unless the U.S. told him so, so there's no reason to try and negotiate with the United

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States either.

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Putin knows that Ukraine and the United States aren't going to concede to his demands, so

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this becomes a very convenient way to argue that no negotiation is possible.

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No negotiation on his terms is probably possible.

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That is probably true.

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And because he doesn't get to dictate the terms, it's everyone else's fault for not

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playing into his shit.

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Yeah.

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They're making excuses.

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Yeah, I mean, at this point, there's no way to view it as anything other than existential

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for Ukraine.

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So there's no stopping the war unless Ukraine exists, and there's no stopping the war unless

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Ukraine doesn't exist.

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So that's that.

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That does seem to be that.

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So Tucker asks a clarifying question that is like, okay, let's just be clear.

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You want a settled end to this war, right?

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With the ownership of the world.

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Wow.

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So I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding what you're saying.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:58.840)

I don't think that I am.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:59.840)

I think you're saying you want a negotiated settlement to what's happening in Ukraine.

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Right.

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And we made it.

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We prepared a huge document in Istanbul that was initialed by the head of the Ukrainian

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delegation.

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He had fixed his signature to some of the provisions, not to all of it.

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He put his signature, and then he himself said, we were ready to sign it, and the war

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would have been over long ago, 18 months ago.

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However, Prime Minister Johnson came, talked us out of it, and we missed that chance.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:39.040)

Well, you missed it, you made a mistake, let them get back to that, that is all.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:45.159)

Why do we have to bother ourselves and correct somebody else's mistakes?

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Sure.

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You may notice a very important detail that Putin's just kind of casually glossing over,

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namely that the Ukrainian side hadn't agreed to all the terms of the agreement at Istanbul.

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Wow.

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Boris Johnson didn't force or coerce Ukraine or Zelensky into anything, and he's come out

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very aggressively against this accusation.

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It all stems from a Ukrainian negotiator who said that when Johnson visited Kiev on April

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9th, 2022, he said that Ukraine, quote, shouldn't sign anything with them at all, and let's

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just fight.

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We've talked about this before.

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This is a guy named David R. Hamia, and part of that, you know, the thing that the Putin-loving

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side leaves out of this is that he also said that agreeing to the terms presented by Russia

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would require a change to the Ukrainian constitution, and that they weren't inclined to trust Russia

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under Putin to keep its arrangement.

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Yeah.

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Obviously.

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This agreement at all.

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Yeah.

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He didn't say what Putin's claiming here.

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That's an embellishment, to put it politely.

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He also said that the whole denazification thing was a charade that Russia was using

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to hide its primary concern, which is making sure that Ukraine doesn't join NATO.

Unknown Speaker (02:45:47.319)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:45:48.319)

This comment from R. Hamia is what the whole narrative is hinged on, even when it's coming

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from the head of the belligerent state in this negotiation.

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Strange.

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Putin doesn't have more evidence of this past what you'd hear, like, on Infowars.

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It's really weird.

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There's no more evidence being presented.

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I mean, it's-

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There's no bullshit that goes on in right-wing media.

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It is a testament to the completeness of information control in Russia, you know, where it's like,

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you can be this lazy.

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I mean, if you give it ten years here, you can be this lazy.

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Trump was that lazy.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And people still believe him.

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People believe all the bullshit he says, so why not?

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I think when you are a charismatic, attempted authoritarian or authoritarian, you kind of

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get away with a lot.

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Yeah.

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And I mean, it is so much like, it is childish and stupid to think that there is a settlement

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with Putin.

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Right.

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There's a settlement with Russia.

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Yeah.

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That's fine.

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In theory.

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Russia's people.

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Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:46:48.280)

There's no settlement with Putin, because if you settle with Putin now, then five years

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from now, Putin spent five years building up a military so he can take back your shit.

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Or you spent five years building up a military, in which case everybody wasted five years

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of time building up a military to continue a conflict that's going on now.

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So it's stupid.

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And is, like, if passed as prelude, going to continue as long as there is not a Russia-friendly

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leader in Ukraine.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Because he doesn't believe Ukraine's a country, and he thinks that it's all fake.

Unknown Speaker (02:47:17.840)

Right.

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There is no end to the war so long as Putin is alive.

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That's it.

Unknown Speaker (02:47:22.760)

Unless there is the sort of negative end to the war, which is-

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Putin wins.

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He's calling a permanent dictator the Russia-friendly dictator in Ukraine.

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Totally.

Unknown Speaker (02:47:34.319)

Yep, that's it.

Unknown Speaker (02:47:35.319)

So here's where the interview ends.

Unknown Speaker (02:47:36.319)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (02:47:37.319)

And it's sort of a fake optimism on Putin's part.

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Interesting.

Unknown Speaker (02:47:43.559)

They have driven the situation to the point where we are at.

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It is not us who have done that.

Unknown Speaker (02:47:49.219)

It is our partners, opponents who have done that.

Unknown Speaker (02:47:52.879)

Well, now let them think how to reverse the situation.

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They're not against it.

Unknown Speaker (02:47:59.280)

It would be funny if it were not so sad.

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This endless mobilization in Ukraine, the hysteria, the domestic problems, sooner or

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later it will result in agreement.

Unknown Speaker (02:48:17.520)

You know, this probably sounds strange, given the current situation.

Unknown Speaker (02:48:24.219)

But the relations between the two peoples will be rebuilt anyway.

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It will take a lot of time, but they will heal.

Unknown Speaker (02:48:39.079)

I'll give you very unusual examples.

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There is a combat encounter on the battlefield.

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Here's a specific example.

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Ukrainian soldiers got encircled.

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This is an example from real life.

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Our soldiers were shouting to them, there is no chance, surrender yourselves, come out

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and you will be alive.

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Suddenly the Ukrainian soldiers were screaming from there in Russian, perfect Russian, saying,

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Russians do not surrender.

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And all of them perished.

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They still identify themselves as Russian.

Unknown Speaker (02:49:23.799)

You have learned the wrong lesson, sir.

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What is happening is to a certain extent an element of a civil war.

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Everyone in the West thinks that the Russian people have been split by hostilities forever.

Unknown Speaker (02:49:37.040)

No, they will be reunited.

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The unity is still there.

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Why are the Ukrainian authorities dismantling the Ukrainian Orthodox Church?

Unknown Speaker (02:49:53.920)

Because it brings together not only the territory, it brings together our souls.

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No one will be able to separate us.

Unknown Speaker (02:50:03.000)

You fucker!

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Shall we end here, or is there anything else?

Unknown Speaker (02:50:13.440)

No, tell me more about souls.

Unknown Speaker (02:50:15.600)

That's great.

Unknown Speaker (02:50:17.399)

Thank you, Mr. President.

Unknown Speaker (02:50:18.399)

No, I think that's great.

Unknown Speaker (02:50:19.879)

Jesus fucking Christ.

Unknown Speaker (02:50:21.719)

Yeah, so the optimistic sort of beautiful flowery end is, this will all be fine because

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we're all Russians anyway.

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I mean, the idea that that doesn't tell you everything you need to know and basically

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nullify any possible value the previous two hours could have had.

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Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:50:42.200)

I mean-

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It speaks loudly.

Unknown Speaker (02:50:44.760)

Listen, at the end of the day, what's important is I've already won.

Unknown Speaker (02:50:49.879)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:50:50.879)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:50:51.879)

And it's just a basic reality.

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What matters is that all of you everywhere are fucking wrong and stupid, and I am smart

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and strong and I am good looking as well.

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The people in Ukraine have been tricked into thinking they're not Russian, and that is

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what we must beat out of them.

Unknown Speaker (02:51:10.840)

Yeah, man.

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Wow.

Unknown Speaker (02:51:12.840)

Yeah, it's something.

Unknown Speaker (02:51:13.840)

It's something.

Unknown Speaker (02:51:15.239)

So after all this, there's a little sting that plays at the end, and I don't know if

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this is just on every Tucker episode or whatever, but it felt really weird after this one.

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Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:51:26.840)

Thank you, Mr. President.

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Free speech is bigger than any one person or any one organization.

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Societies are defined by what they will not commit.

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What we're watching is the total inversion of virtue.

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That's it.

Unknown Speaker (02:51:41.719)

I was thinking...

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That is apt, wrongly?

Unknown Speaker (02:51:52.299)

That is so wrong, it is apt.

Unknown Speaker (02:51:55.360)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:51:56.360)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:51:57.360)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:51:58.360)

And something that's so bizarre about this is that this interview, if slightly more confrontational,

Unknown Speaker (02:52:09.360)

and if it had some of the vibe that came around in the end, asking about the jailed journalists,

Unknown Speaker (02:52:15.920)

if that came from someone who wasn't Tucker, this interview probably works very negatively

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against Putin.

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Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (02:52:25.959)

But because it's Tucker, it's...

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But see, this is what's so great about this, because this ends every conversation, every

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argument from now on about this type of thing.

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It's so great what I love about this, inexplicably, right?

Unknown Speaker (02:52:45.379)

This proves definitively the reason that Tucker was chosen is because there is no downside.

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There's no bad outcome.

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This is a neutral outcome.

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This is a zero.

Unknown Speaker (02:52:58.319)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:52:59.319)

Which is not what you want.

Unknown Speaker (02:53:00.319)

There's no...

Unknown Speaker (02:53:01.319)

Yeah, you would prefer a plus 100 in the win column, but ultimately, this is as bad as

Unknown Speaker (02:53:06.239)

it could get, which is nothing.

Unknown Speaker (02:53:09.920)

So if you are going to say, like, oh, well, should we talk to Alex?

Unknown Speaker (02:53:13.739)

Should we talk to Joe Rose?

Unknown Speaker (02:53:14.920)

Should we do any of this stuff?

Unknown Speaker (02:53:16.700)

If you are talking to him, this is you, you're Tucker.

Unknown Speaker (02:53:19.920)

You are nothing.

Unknown Speaker (02:53:21.280)

The reason you are allowed to talk to them is because you pose zero threat, and that

Unknown Speaker (02:53:26.520)

is the answer.

Unknown Speaker (02:53:27.639)

So if you are a Krasnostein, go fuck yourself.

Unknown Speaker (02:53:30.799)

You pose zero threat.

Unknown Speaker (02:53:32.479)

Destiny.

Unknown Speaker (02:53:33.479)

Except...

Unknown Speaker (02:53:34.479)

What's interesting is that you have zero threat, even when you're doing something that is nominally

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threatening.

Unknown Speaker (02:53:44.760)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:53:45.760)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:53:46.760)

Which is why they choose you for it, because it is...

Unknown Speaker (02:53:47.760)

But why is that?

Unknown Speaker (02:53:48.760)

It is the appearance of something real that is not real.

Unknown Speaker (02:53:52.159)

Well, because also...

Unknown Speaker (02:53:53.559)

It's a deep fake, if you will.

Unknown Speaker (02:53:54.920)

But I think part of it, too, is that Putin has a clear understanding that in order to

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be against Putin, Tucker would have to change a lot of narratives, admit he was wrong about

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a ton of stuff.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:08.120)

He would have to do the one thing he cannot do.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:09.719)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:10.719)

So you kind of have the interviewer in a position where even if you do ask kind of hard questions,

Unknown Speaker (02:54:16.159)

you know that they have a vested interest in you wiggling out of the situation.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:19.280)

Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:20.280)

And I think that that is kind of a lose from the beginning.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:25.079)

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:26.079)

And still, even still, it is worth recognizing that this did not go nearly in the direction

Unknown Speaker (02:54:33.440)

that I think everybody in their space would have hoped it would have.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:38.120)

Oh, totally.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:39.120)

And it's not for lack of trying, because Tucker did try.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:41.559)

No, that's what's so fascinating about it.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:42.959)

He tried to weave things in those directions.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:45.920)

Do you see God at work?

Unknown Speaker (02:54:47.120)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:48.120)

Who are the teams?

Unknown Speaker (02:54:49.120)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:50.120)

Who are the elites?

Unknown Speaker (02:54:51.120)

Please talk about the deep state.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:52.120)

You know, he tried to weave into those conspiracy territories and Putin just didn't.

Unknown Speaker (02:54:56.559)

Yeah.

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And...

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Here's what I wish.

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That's weird.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:00.559)

Here's what I would like.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:01.559)

I would like, because I don't believe that I will ever have agreement with the far right

Unknown Speaker (02:55:06.000)

on stuff.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:07.000)

It seems doubtful.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:08.719)

But what I do think we can agree on is that if somebody is a giant loser, we just go,

Unknown Speaker (02:55:14.639)

ah, that's a giant loser.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:16.680)

And you have watched Tucker and Vladimir Putin be giant losers.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:22.500)

So they're both giant losers.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:23.600)

It seems loser-ish.

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It's loser shit.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:25.920)

Yeah.

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It's weak sauce.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:27.920)

And yeah, it's...

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God, I'd be such a better dictator than Putin.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:32.280)

I'd be so great at it.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:33.280)

I don't think...

Unknown Speaker (02:55:34.280)

I would dictate the shit out of things.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:35.280)

I don't think you would.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:36.280)

I'd be like, oh man, let's not fight this war.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:38.799)

It'd be not hard.

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And then I'd be killed immediately.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:40.799)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:41.799)

I'd be dead.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:42.799)

Well, I mean, I guess it really then comes down to the question of how do you define

Unknown Speaker (02:55:45.879)

a good dictatorship, you know?

Unknown Speaker (02:55:47.319)

One that's dead.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:48.319)

Oh.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:49.319)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:50.319)

Well, in that case, yeah, you'd be great.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:51.319)

I'd be great at it.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:52.319)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:53.319)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (02:55:54.319)

You know, I struggle with this because on the one hand, you have to ask yourself, like,

Unknown Speaker (02:56:01.719)

does Tucker come out of this looking like a good interviewer?

Unknown Speaker (02:56:06.079)

And I think the answer is no, with a very, very small window.

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With a strange caveat.

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With a small window that is even still ruined by his clear interest in the spectacle.

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Self-promotion.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's not ruined, but it's tainted, let's say.

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Sure.

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Sure, sure, sure.

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So I think not.

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I think Tucker doesn't come out of this looking...

Unknown Speaker (02:56:23.920)

Again, with that slight exception, because I do think that that would take a lot of nerve

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to pull the trigger on that.

Unknown Speaker (02:56:31.479)

Right.

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Sitting across the table from Putin.

Unknown Speaker (02:56:33.479)

I think it would be easier, honestly, like legitimately, serious talk.

Unknown Speaker (02:56:37.920)

It would be easier for me to try and kill Putin than it would be to ask that question.

Unknown Speaker (02:56:42.520)

Because that's a scary question to ask, unless you're holding a fucking knife to Putin's

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throat.

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You don't really know how the ball's gonna break.

Unknown Speaker (02:56:49.120)

It could go any way, and Putin kills people.

Unknown Speaker (02:56:51.620)

So that does deserve a tip of the cap in some way.

Unknown Speaker (02:56:55.239)

True.

Unknown Speaker (02:56:56.239)

But still, despite that, the rest of it is not good interviewing.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:00.079)

No.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:01.079)

It's not driving points home necessarily.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:03.239)

It's not interesting.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:04.239)

No.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:05.239)

So you let him hold court for half an hour about Russian history, and then seemed to

Unknown Speaker (02:57:08.680)

not understand the point until reflection, which is why he had to have this disclaimer

Unknown Speaker (02:57:13.600)

at the beginning.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:14.600)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:15.600)

Yeah.

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So then you ask yourself, does Putin come off looking strong?

Unknown Speaker (02:57:17.600)

No.

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And I think not.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:19.600)

No.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:20.600)

To whom is this?

Unknown Speaker (02:57:22.940)

Do you know what I mean?

Unknown Speaker (02:57:24.120)

I understand, before this, I assumed that this was for the right wing to...

Unknown Speaker (02:57:30.239)

The American right wing, particularly.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:31.239)

Yeah, for the American right wing to solidify their support around Putin.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:35.719)

That seems like the only reason to do this.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:37.920)

And especially because coming forward is the idea that if Trump is elected, we're gonna

Unknown Speaker (02:57:43.760)

go fuck off NATO.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:45.200)

You know?

Unknown Speaker (02:57:46.200)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:47.200)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:48.200)

So this should be essentially preparation for everybody on the right wing going, yes,

Unknown Speaker (02:57:52.040)

it's totally fine to throw out the past 80 years of orthodoxy and become pro-Russia.

Unknown Speaker (02:57:58.200)

Right?

Unknown Speaker (02:57:59.399)

It seems like that would be why you do this, because the end goal, or the fruits, as it

Unknown Speaker (02:58:04.559)

were, of creating a portrait of Putin that is like, I'm gonna call journalism spying.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:09.920)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:10.920)

I believe that I have the right to take Ukraine, and something in the 900s onward is the rationalization

Unknown Speaker (02:58:15.600)

for that.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:16.600)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:17.600)

That does not work, and it runs counter to the established positions in this right wing

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media space.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:24.920)

No.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:25.920)

Like I said, this is making me Swayze.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:27.680)

This is absolutely 100% a like, when you listen to this, your red dawn should get lit up and

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you should go like, America.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:35.520)

Like this is, again, one of the few jingoistic things that I will allow myself.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:40.319)

And this is the only situation where it's useful.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:42.239)

But it's so weird.

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It is weird.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:44.520)

When you reflect on it, it-

Unknown Speaker (02:58:47.440)

I don't understand it.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:48.440)

It can't be a win, except for, you know, obviously, a lot of people watched it.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:54.520)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:55.520)

It drove a lot of traffic in the immediate.

Unknown Speaker (02:58:56.920)

Good?

Unknown Speaker (02:58:57.920)

Well, certainly, you know, on some level, if you are recognizing that a lot of the content

Unknown Speaker (02:59:04.719)

is gonna be ignored by people, and maybe people just passively watch it or whatever, it does

Unknown Speaker (02:59:10.200)

raise your stature a bit, if you're Tucker, because you're hanging around-

Unknown Speaker (02:59:14.079)

Obviously.

Unknown Speaker (02:59:15.079)

You interviewed Putin.

Unknown Speaker (02:59:16.079)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:59:17.079)

You're interviewing cat turd and the guy who claims he had sex with Obama.

Unknown Speaker (02:59:18.200)

And then you jump to Putin.

Unknown Speaker (02:59:19.360)

Right.

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Big difference.

Unknown Speaker (02:59:21.360)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:59:22.360)

And that's not to say that he hasn't had big guests in the past, but this is kind of a

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different echelon.

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It's nuclear weapons unilaterally level guest.

Unknown Speaker (02:59:29.040)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:59:30.040)

So that does raise your stature in some sense, but the actual product of it, if you mean

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this interview to be taken seriously, it should facilitate a pivot.

Unknown Speaker (02:59:42.799)

It should facilitate a changing of position of like, hey, this guy, maybe we had his intentions

Unknown Speaker (02:59:50.239)

wrong all the time about Ukraine.

Unknown Speaker (02:59:53.000)

Maybe we should reconsider some of these other things that we've been selling you.

Unknown Speaker (02:59:57.120)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (02:59:58.120)

But it's not doing that, I don't think.

Unknown Speaker (02:59:59.360)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (03:00:00.360)

Have you seen any reaction to it?

Unknown Speaker (03:00:02.459)

Not a ton.

Unknown Speaker (03:00:03.459)

So you texted me-

Unknown Speaker (03:00:05.120)

Well, I mean, leaving Alex aside.

Unknown Speaker (03:00:06.799)

Sure, sure, sure.

Unknown Speaker (03:00:07.799)

Well, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (03:00:08.799)

I mean, obviously I haven't seen that response either.

Unknown Speaker (03:00:10.680)

But leaving... No, you texted me like, did you see any of this interview?

Unknown Speaker (03:00:15.680)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (03:00:16.680)

And we both had a weird little moment where we're like, no, and that seems crazy.

Unknown Speaker (03:00:19.520)

Yeah, because oftentimes there'll be something that happens and we knew that we were going

Unknown Speaker (03:00:24.440)

to cover this in advance when it was announced.

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And so a lot of times you can't avoid big news.

Unknown Speaker (03:00:30.680)

It is literally Super Bowl Sunday today.

Unknown Speaker (03:00:33.959)

Yeah.

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I forgot about that.

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Yeah, I know.

Unknown Speaker (03:00:36.959)

Me too.

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We were listening to the radio.

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My wife dropped me off.

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Do you remember the fucking post-Super Bowl Obama interviews where it was like, or was

Unknown Speaker (03:00:49.479)

it the Super Bowl halftime thing or was it the pre-

Unknown Speaker (03:00:51.840)

I don't remember.

Unknown Speaker (03:00:52.840)

I don't remember.

Unknown Speaker (03:00:53.840)

But it was like the biggest thing on the planet was the Super Bowl and that's why Obama was

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right next to it, you know?

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It's that kind of thing.

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Tucker tried to scoop the Super Bowl.

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And this is supposed to be of that stature.

Unknown Speaker (03:01:07.399)

Yeah, it doesn't feel like the response has lived up to it.

Unknown Speaker (03:01:13.040)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (03:01:14.040)

And that's probably a testament to the content of it being-

Unknown Speaker (03:01:16.959)

It really sucks.

Unknown Speaker (03:01:18.719)

They fucking shit the bed.

Unknown Speaker (03:01:21.040)

Man.

Unknown Speaker (03:01:22.280)

I don't, I think what's fascinating, what's amazing about this is I don't think at any

Unknown Speaker (03:01:29.059)

point in my life I would ever have expected something like this to happen.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Sort of.

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And it doesn't matter what era, my understanding of the geopolitical world even at younger

Unknown Speaker (03:01:43.840)

ages still would have been like, well, they're not going to do that, right?

Unknown Speaker (03:01:49.600)

Then add on top of that, they're going to do that potentially dangerous thing and then

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fail.

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So spectacularly the world kind of ignores it?

Unknown Speaker (03:02:01.000)

Well, that's the-

Unknown Speaker (03:02:02.000)

That's a-

Unknown Speaker (03:02:03.000)

What is that?

Unknown Speaker (03:02:04.000)

That's the part that I'm wrestling with is like, we see this as a failure on both sides

Unknown Speaker (03:02:09.399)

because I don't think either comes out looking better, but that's where we have to reassess.

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Have we miss assumed what the goal is or what the terms of failure are?

Unknown Speaker (03:02:22.159)

I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (03:02:23.299)

I don't think that's the case.

Unknown Speaker (03:02:25.239)

I think it's possible that we're wrong in terms of what they thought they were trying

Unknown Speaker (03:02:30.360)

to get, but if they were trying to get something different from what we would have been trying

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to get, then they were wrong about what they're trying to get.

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Do you know what I mean?

Unknown Speaker (03:02:39.280)

There's only one valuable thing out of this and that is the right wing loving Putin enough

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to exit NATO.

Unknown Speaker (03:02:45.200)

I think based on a lot of the behaviors that you see displayed by Tucker throughout the

Unknown Speaker (03:02:51.719)

interview, it seems like that is still his intention of trying to get down that road

Unknown Speaker (03:02:56.920)

and that road is not being gone down by Putin.

Unknown Speaker (03:02:59.520)

Amazing.

Unknown Speaker (03:03:00.520)

Which maybe he had the strategic difference of opinion or whatever.

Unknown Speaker (03:03:05.120)

I don't know, but this was very weird.

Unknown Speaker (03:03:07.319)

This was very weird.

Unknown Speaker (03:03:08.799)

And I don't know, there's a part of me that feels like I kind of regret covering it almost

Unknown Speaker (03:03:15.159)

because it is kind of like a wet blanket or something, but at the same time, it's going

Unknown Speaker (03:03:21.399)

to be such a piece of lore and stuff with Alex and Info Wars that it's something that

Unknown Speaker (03:03:28.280)

is not really avoidable.

Unknown Speaker (03:03:30.319)

Here's why.

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One, I think I kind of, I don't regret at all.

Unknown Speaker (03:03:37.719)

Maybe regret was a strong one.

Unknown Speaker (03:03:38.719)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (03:03:39.719)

I think that's not quite the word.

Unknown Speaker (03:03:40.920)

I think there's two things that make this actually very, very good.

Unknown Speaker (03:03:45.079)

One, this is so weird.

Unknown Speaker (03:03:48.000)

It's very weird.

Unknown Speaker (03:03:49.139)

But uniquely weird in a weird that I don't know if I've ever experienced before.

Unknown Speaker (03:03:55.440)

And two, this is ripe for the type of wet cement.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:02.000)

This is the type of interview, because it's a dud, because people aren't going to pay

Unknown Speaker (03:04:06.280)

attention to it in six months.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:09.000)

Do you remember when Tucker interviewed Putin and Putin said all the things that you did

Unknown Speaker (03:04:13.100)

want to hear him say?

Unknown Speaker (03:04:14.100)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:15.100)

There could be.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:16.100)

Do you know what I mean?

Unknown Speaker (03:04:17.100)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:18.100)

That is the type of thing where I think we are uniquely situated to fight against this

Unknown Speaker (03:04:22.760)

specific case.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:24.520)

It may be.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:25.520)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:26.520)

That's an interesting perspective.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:27.520)

Because none of these fucking bloggers, The Guardian doesn't have the ability to do that

Unknown Speaker (03:04:31.159)

shit.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:32.159)

Well, a lot of them do a fair amount of good fact checking and such.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:34.760)

They do a good job at what they can do.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:37.040)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:38.040)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:39.040)

They can't swear and have you call for Putin to die.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:41.879)

They really can't, which I do think is odd.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:44.239)

You could back in the 40s, you could be like, fucking kill Hitler.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:48.840)

So we come to the end of this and, well, your mileage may vary, it is what it is.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:55.059)

It is what it is.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:56.459)

But we'll be back for another episode, but until then we have a website.

Unknown Speaker (03:04:59.879)

Indeed we do, it's knowledgefight.com.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:00.879)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:01.879)

We're also on Blue Sky.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:02.879)

We are on Blue Sky, it's knowledgefight.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:04.440)

Yeah, we'll be back.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:05.799)

But until then, I'm Leo, Leo, DZX, Clark.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:08.760)

I was thinking about trying to do the theme from Tetris, but I don't know if that's in

Unknown Speaker (03:05:13.760)

poor taste.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:14.760)

Is it?

Unknown Speaker (03:05:15.760)

I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:16.760)

I don't think it is.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:17.760)

No.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:18.760)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:19.760)

You're really good at it too.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:20.760)

I could beat anybody.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:21.760)

It's fucking creepy how good you are at it.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:22.760)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:23.760)

Take all comers, bring it on.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:24.760)

It's not creepy.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:25.760)

It's impressive.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:26.760)

I don't know why I said creepy.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:27.760)

I think because it's supposed to be avoiding a compliment to you.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:28.760)

I will take on everybody at the X-ray arcade.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:31.799)

That's true.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:32.799)

Everyone.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:33.799)

I will beat you all at Tetris.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:34.799)

I'm not going to do that.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:35.799)

I'm not going to do that.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:36.799)

He would.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:37.799)

Nah, probably not.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:38.799)

Woo, yeah, woo, yeah, woo.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:39.799)

And now here comes the sex robots.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:43.200)

Andy in Kansas.

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You're on the air.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:45.200)

Thanks for holding.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:46.200)

Hello, Alex.

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I'm a first time caller.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:48.799)

I'm a huge fan.

Unknown Speaker (03:05:49.799)

I love your work.