Transcript/865: Chatting with Anna Merlan
From Knowledge Fight Wiki
Warning: Bot Generated Content
This transcript was automatically generated by transcription software and likely contains many mistakes and misattributions. Please check the audio for definitive quotes, attribution, and context.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:00.000)
N-N-N-N-N-N-N-Knowledge Fight
Unknown Speaker (00:00:12.960)
Dan and Jordan, I am sweating.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:19.600)
Knowledgefight.com, it's time to pray.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:21.399)
I have great respect for Knowledgefight.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:23.920)
Knowledgefight.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:24.920)
I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys saying we are the bad guys.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:29.359)
Knowledgefight.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:30.359)
Dan and Jordan, Knowledgefight.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:31.359)
Riddle her, riddle her, riddle her.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:32.359)
Need, need money.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:33.359)
Riddle her, riddle her, riddle her.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:34.359)
Andy in Kansas.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:35.359)
Andy in, Andy in.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:36.359)
Stop it.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:37.359)
Andy in, Andy in Kansas.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:38.359)
Andy in, Andy in.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:39.359)
It's time to pray.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:40.359)
Andy in Kansas, you're on the air.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:41.359)
Thanks for holding.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:42.359)
Hello Alex, I'm a first time caller.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:43.359)
I'm a huge fan.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:44.359)
I love your work.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:45.359)
Knowledgefight.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:46.359)
N-N-N-N-N-Knowledgefight.com.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:47.359)
I love you.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:59.799)
Hello everyone and welcome back to Knowledgefight.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:02.119)
I am once again alone without my co-host Dan.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:05.040)
Today, however, I am joined by renowned journalist Anna Merlin.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:10.439)
Thank you so much for your coming onto the show.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:12.480)
Thank you for having me.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:13.480)
Did you kill Dan?
Unknown Speaker (00:01:15.040)
I, I did not kill Dan.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:17.879)
Sometimes we've, we've decided that doing interviews separate allows us to actually
Unknown Speaker (00:01:23.620)
listen to people as opposed to the two of us just talking to each other the whole time.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:27.120)
It sounds like you killed Dan.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:28.120)
It's okay though.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:29.120)
I'll, I can ask you about it later.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:30.719)
Maybe next time.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:31.719)
Uh huh.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:32.719)
I can't.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:33.719)
You see, he's, he's the, I've, my, let me, let me put it this way, I've hitched my wagon
Unknown Speaker (00:01:38.719)
to him.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:39.719)
I can't kill him.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:40.719)
True.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:41.719)
He can kill me at any time.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:42.719)
Definitely.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:43.719)
That's true.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:44.719)
I don't know about that, but I mean he could, well, you know, whatever.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:48.120)
Anyway, I'm just saying I'm rooting for you guys to fight to the death.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:52.959)
I think so long as we avoid volcanoes and the tops of which we should be good on that
Unknown Speaker (00:01:58.959)
front.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:59.959)
Famous last words.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:00.959)
Uh, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:01.959)
So, uh, Anna, I, I mean, first off, you're currently a vice journalist.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:08.719)
Uh, you formerly worked for Jezebel.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:11.960)
You've, uh, I, I specifically reached out to talk about your book, uh, Republic of Lies,
Unknown Speaker (00:02:17.400)
which, uh, came out in about 2019.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:19.719)
2019.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:20.719)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:21.719)
Like, um, April, I believe 2019.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:23.879)
So, you know, it became almost immediately irrelevant and then it became really irrelevant.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:30.719)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:31.719)
That's, I think that's one of the things that I found so interesting, uh, going back over
Unknown Speaker (00:02:38.560)
is just, uh, well, I mean, I suppose the best place to start there is with the very opening.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:46.560)
You went on the conspiracy groups.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:48.599)
I did.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:49.599)
I did.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:50.599)
I was one of several journalists actually went on that cruise.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:53.120)
Um, the presence of journalists on that cruise went so poorly that they did not have another
Unknown Speaker (00:02:58.639)
cruise for years and I heard that the next one, there was maybe going to be some kind
Unknown Speaker (00:03:02.939)
of rule about not having journalists.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:04.460)
So we were very disruptive in a way that we did not intend to be.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:08.439)
Like really tried not to be, I want to stress that we really tried not to be, but, um, specifically
Unknown Speaker (00:03:13.800)
my now friend Bronwyn Dickey, um, was there from Popular Mechanics.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:18.800)
A bunch of people on the cruise were very upset about the idea of Popular Mechanics
Unknown Speaker (00:03:22.080)
being there because Popular Mechanics had written like a full book debunking 9-11 conspiracy
Unknown Speaker (00:03:27.439)
theories.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:28.439)
Um, and so, oh yeah, that seems silly, but now that I think about it, yeah, that makes
Unknown Speaker (00:03:33.960)
perfect sense.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:34.960)
So they were, they were very concerned about Bronwyn being there.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:38.199)
That's concerned about me really, um, which was fine, but so it ended with, um, all of
Unknown Speaker (00:03:44.800)
the journalists.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:45.800)
It was me, Bronwyn, a photographer named Dina Latovski, who is also a good friend of it,
Unknown Speaker (00:03:50.039)
friend now and our friend Colin who was there, uh, blogging for his wife's blog.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:55.120)
Anyway, we all ended up getting kind of followed around the boat at various times by people
Unknown Speaker (00:04:00.719)
on the cruise, um, who were intent on proving various things about us.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:05.080)
I still have like video and audio footage of this husband-wife team cornering me in
Unknown Speaker (00:04:11.599)
the boat computer lab and accusing me of being in the CIA, uh, and then telling me I wouldn't
Unknown Speaker (00:04:17.680)
necessarily know if I was in the CIA.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:19.639)
It was, it was a really, really long week.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:24.519)
I like that.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:25.519)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:26.519)
I like that.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:27.519)
I see the thing about it that I don't understand is, well, first off, I don't understand cruises
Unknown Speaker (00:04:33.759)
at all, I can't, I don't understand the idea of not having an escape.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:37.639)
I can't recommend it.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:38.920)
That boggles my mind.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:39.920)
It was, it was not good.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:43.720)
Then for them to go seems mad because they're conspiracy theorists are all climbing together
Unknown Speaker (00:04:51.139)
on a boat at an easily, uh, isolatable circumstance.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:54.959)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:55.959)
I was surprised.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:56.959)
They can all be found.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:58.199)
I was really surprised.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:59.199)
Um, also two of them, a husband and husband and wife pair named Sean David Morton and
Unknown Speaker (00:05:04.399)
Melissa Morton were actually arrested coming off the boat, um, you know, for, um, financial
Unknown Speaker (00:05:11.519)
fraud that they both eventually went to prison for.
Unknown Speaker (00:05:14.360)
So like on a number of levels, it just, it didn't seem like the best idea.
Unknown Speaker (00:05:19.720)
It was also very expensive and a lot of the both presenters and guests on the cruise were
Unknown Speaker (00:05:25.120)
not in like great financial conditions.
Unknown Speaker (00:05:29.040)
So I don't know that it was really a good plan for any of them, but they seem to have
Unknown Speaker (00:05:32.800)
a nice time.
Unknown Speaker (00:05:34.800)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:05:35.800)
Well, I mean, I think what I find fascinating about it is that it speaks to the level of
Unknown Speaker (00:05:41.519)
loneliness in the community for stuff.
Unknown Speaker (00:05:45.000)
I mean, if you're willing to go on a cruise, just that's, that's lonely.
Unknown Speaker (00:05:50.920)
I mean, a lot of the guests were actually there because they specifically wanted to
Unknown Speaker (00:05:55.120)
hear either from Andrew Wakefield, who's sort of the father of modern vaccine conspiracy
Unknown Speaker (00:05:59.199)
theories, or because they wanted to get an audience with Sean David Morton or, um, Winston
Unknown Speaker (00:06:05.680)
shroud, who is another like self-styled financial expert.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:08.399)
Um, you know, both of these people were practicing what I would argue was redemption theory,
Unknown Speaker (00:06:14.240)
which is sort of a branch of like sovereign citizen financial, um, conspiracy theory stuff.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:18.879)
But a lot of folks on the boat were specifically wanting to be in their seminars, wanting to
Unknown Speaker (00:06:22.879)
take notes, wanting to like figure out how to get out of what, whatever financial situation
Unknown Speaker (00:06:28.240)
they thought they were in or were undoubtedly in.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:31.399)
And so for a lot of people, I guess, spending like $2,000 to go on this cruise and hear
Unknown Speaker (00:06:35.439)
from these people seemed like a wise financial choice.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:37.759)
And arguably, of course it was not.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:40.199)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:41.199)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:42.199)
Well, that's an interesting, that's an interesting different angle on it because that turns
Unknown Speaker (00:06:45.920)
it from a, a like grouping of people who believe in conspiracies trying to connect with each
Unknown Speaker (00:06:53.220)
other into more of a, like a self-help guru bilking people out of, out of money in the
Unknown Speaker (00:06:59.040)
same way.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:00.040)
Yeah, it definitely felt, you know, like the rich dad, poor dad guy could be Sean dad Morton
Unknown Speaker (00:07:06.560)
or Sean dad Morton.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:08.439)
There we go.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:09.439)
I've figured it out.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:10.439)
Well, I had never, I have never read rich dad, poor dad, despite my partner's relative
Unknown Speaker (00:07:17.480)
has given him like five copies of the book.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:19.399)
And so we have had many copies of this book in our house that we immediately put somewhere
Unknown Speaker (00:07:23.920)
else.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:24.920)
So I had not read it and I did not know what it was about until I listened to an episode
Unknown Speaker (00:07:29.160)
of books could kill it.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:30.639)
It sounds like the, the, the entire narrative, like the, the rich dad was not actually really
Unknown Speaker (00:07:35.800)
closely involved with the author's life.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:37.600)
Also, the author did file for bankruptcy at one point.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:40.439)
I think like it's really, it's an incredible text.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:42.759)
Anyway, nothing to do with what we're doing here, but yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:45.720)
Well, I mean, arguably it's, it is, it's adjacent.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:50.399)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:51.399)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:52.399)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:53.399)
That's the, that's the interesting thing that I'm, I'm connecting with all of this you know,
Unknown Speaker (00:07:59.240)
the way that the, the cruise itself in 2015, 2016, but yeah, there's a typo in the book.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:07.560)
I tried to have fixed in the paperback version and it did not get fixed, but it was 2016.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:14.879)
That's the version.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:15.879)
I know.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:16.879)
I'm sorry.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:17.879)
So so yeah, but in, in this way I see the people on this boat, on this cruise with you
Unknown Speaker (00:08:26.319)
and they're there for this social gathering slash self-help financial guru.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:34.120)
And I have to think that there is one or two of those people who wound up at the Capitol
Unknown Speaker (00:08:39.759)
on January 6th.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:40.759)
I have no idea.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:41.759)
There's this winding road.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:43.440)
I actually don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:45.440)
It's entirely possible.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:47.360)
Not to my knowledge.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:48.360)
Most of the folks on the boat at that time were not particularly political at the same
Unknown Speaker (00:08:52.360)
time as I wrote.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:53.360)
Several of them were really excited about Donald Trump, so I don't know what ended up
Unknown Speaker (00:08:57.240)
happening.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:58.240)
I haven't kept in touch with any of the attendees.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:01.279)
I have continued to follow obviously a number of the presenters and have had run ins with
Unknown Speaker (00:09:08.799)
them at various times over the years.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:10.720)
Yeah, it's a really good question.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:13.120)
I didn't think of that.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:14.120)
I'm curious if any of them ended up going.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:15.639)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:16.639)
I have no idea.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:17.639)
On the one hand, maybe on the other hand, a lot of those folks were pretty much convinced
Unknown Speaker (00:09:22.879)
that politics were sort of like a, you know, a ruse, an illusion, a veil through which
Unknown Speaker (00:09:27.039)
we have to pierce to see the true workings of things.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:30.360)
So it's entirely possible that they just...
Unknown Speaker (00:09:33.240)
Tell me when they start sounding crazy.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:34.639)
Yeah, I mean, honestly.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:35.639)
So, you know, I mean, I see them, I see these folks periodically when I go to Conscious
Unknown Speaker (00:09:40.480)
Life, which is a big new age festival in LA, it's an expo, and I usually go every couple
Unknown Speaker (00:09:47.080)
of years to kind of like see what's up and, you know, see what the latest trends are.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:51.840)
See what's up.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:52.840)
Just see what's up.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:53.840)
See what the trends are.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:54.840)
You know, like one thing that I do a lot of actually is I will go to conferences or listen
Unknown Speaker (00:10:02.080)
in on them online and stuff that like I often don't even end up writing about just to like
Unknown Speaker (00:10:05.879)
see what the haps are.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:09.120)
And so I do occasionally see some of the conspiracy attendees at Conscious Life, they do not remember
Unknown Speaker (00:10:14.679)
me.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:15.679)
I have not played as large a role in their lives as they have in mine.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:19.200)
Interesting.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:20.200)
Yeah, no.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:21.200)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:22.200)
So you're more of just like an amateur lurker at the, fascinating.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:27.879)
Totally.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:28.879)
I mean, I also think.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:30.879)
What do you take from it?
Unknown Speaker (00:10:32.879)
From the fact that they don't remember me?
Unknown Speaker (00:10:34.720)
Not just like the trends, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:37.279)
Not just the trends and the like.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:39.399)
Like there's, what do you take from being in that environment?
Unknown Speaker (00:10:43.000)
Like there's no sort of tactile, emotional feel you have when you're walking through
Unknown Speaker (00:10:47.720)
these booths of lunatics.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:49.919)
Well, so unfortunately I really enjoy being there.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:53.000)
I actually have like a pretty good rapport with the guy who owns and runs Conscious Life.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:58.519)
His name is Robert Quicksilver.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:59.840)
And for whatever reason, he seems to like me despite, yeah, I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:05.879)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:06.879)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:07.879)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:08.879)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:09.879)
And I like him.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:10.879)
I quite like talking to all of these folks, you know, despite the fact that I'm not here
Unknown Speaker (00:11:19.679)
to sort of report in a way that they would enjoy.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:23.240)
And I also don't know that they like me a lot personally.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:25.440)
Like I ran into some sort of QAnon characters the last time I was, or the time before last
Unknown Speaker (00:11:31.600)
that I was at Conscious Life.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:32.600)
And later they were talking about me on like a podcast and agreeing that I had a very dark
Unknown Speaker (00:11:37.840)
energy and they didn't understand what my deal was.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:40.000)
And I was like, yeah, okay, fair.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:41.960)
Anyway, sorry.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:42.960)
What do I take from being there?
Unknown Speaker (00:11:45.519)
So this last time, the last time I went was in February of this year, and I was really
Unknown Speaker (00:11:49.799)
curious to see what effect COVID had had on the sort of broader new age and conspiracy
Unknown Speaker (00:11:58.080)
communities who all tend to come together at Conscious Life.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:02.159)
And ultimately it has not had much effect in the same way that the broader world has
Unknown Speaker (00:12:07.440)
kind of elected to forget the pandemic and move on as quickly as they can.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:12.600)
There's also not a lot of discussion about it at Conscious Life, except for Del Bigtree,
Unknown Speaker (00:12:17.080)
who's a big anti-vaccine figure who did like a keynote while I was there, who talked obviously
Unknown Speaker (00:12:22.279)
a lot about vaccine mandates and lockdowns and the sort of need for political and legal
Unknown Speaker (00:12:28.519)
revenge on the people who he believes inflicted the pandemic on us.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:34.320)
Yeah, no, it was interesting.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:36.320)
Also, you know.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:37.320)
Playing the hits.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:38.320)
Sure, sure.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:39.320)
Playing the hits, playing the hits.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:40.320)
He's very popular.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:41.320)
I can totally see him running for office someday.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:45.440)
You know?
Unknown Speaker (00:12:46.440)
So, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:47.440)
But I mean, again, it's super interesting because I'm in that lecture.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:50.039)
There's several hundred people in the room.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:51.360)
I'm obviously like the only person wearing a mask, of course, as you might imagine.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:59.759)
And no, it's like nobody is...
Unknown Speaker (00:13:02.600)
Ironically revealing yourself by wearing a mask.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:05.679)
It's true.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:06.679)
And ironically, like nobody had anything to say to me about it.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:10.259)
You know, like there have been times past where I have covered whatever conspiracy events
Unknown Speaker (00:13:14.679)
while wearing a mask and have gotten super duper harassed.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:17.080)
And so have my colleagues.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:18.080)
But in this particular space, it was just like, I don't know, they just weren't there
Unknown Speaker (00:13:22.440)
to fuck with me.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:23.440)
They were there to hear from Del Bictory.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:24.600)
So like...
Unknown Speaker (00:13:25.600)
Everyone's just fucking tired, man.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:28.299)
We're just fucking tired of COVID.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:30.080)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:31.080)
Whatever.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:32.080)
Wear your goddamn mask.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:33.080)
I don't care.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:34.080)
Yeah, it was great.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:35.080)
It's really nice.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:36.080)
I definitely prefer, you know, being able to do my job without getting harassed.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:41.960)
So no, it was great though.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:42.960)
I really appreciated everybody's willingness to, you know, not inflict their choices on
Unknown Speaker (00:13:47.639)
me or vice versa.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:48.639)
You know.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:49.639)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:50.639)
All right.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:51.639)
Now I'm kind of obsessed with the idea of walking around this post-COVID world and how
Unknown Speaker (00:14:02.799)
everybody, I mean, what you're describing I find interesting is that everybody's collective
Unknown Speaker (00:14:09.919)
fictions are all kind of agreeing on, let's just put COVID behind us.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:14.519)
Everybody's collective fictions are intact and have been reinforced in whatever way was
Unknown Speaker (00:14:19.639)
sort of politically and socially and financially useful by the pandemic.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:24.759)
So people who were there to peddle this idea of sort of perpetual sickness and promise,
Unknown Speaker (00:14:31.039)
you know, miraculous health cures were able to draw that from COVID.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:35.799)
People whose ideas about, you know, lockdowns and government overreach, you know, people
Unknown Speaker (00:14:40.840)
who just wanted to ignore the whole thing, whatever, whatever they needed to take from
Unknown Speaker (00:14:44.840)
it, they did.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:45.840)
So that, yeah, I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:46.840)
It was interesting.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:47.840)
It's always interesting.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:48.840)
It's always interesting to see what people are talking about, what people are selling.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:51.000)
There's always a lot of products to protect you from EMF frequencies and stuff like that.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:58.000)
So I was looking at that.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:59.000)
You know, it's just, I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:00.000)
It's just a good time.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:01.639)
There's very good samosas.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:02.799)
There's an Indian like a restaurant that does catering every year and the samosas are incredible.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:09.799)
I brought my partner this year.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:11.080)
He actually ended up taking photos and publishing a photo essay on Vice because he was just
Unknown Speaker (00:15:15.679)
wandering around the, he's a photographer and was just wandering around the exhibition
Unknown Speaker (00:15:19.919)
hall and was like, holy shit, and ended up shooting like a really beautiful series of
Unknown Speaker (00:15:23.840)
photos.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:24.840)
So, you know, we all, it's a, it's a great time for the whole family.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:27.840)
But now, now I suppose then let's, let's bring it home.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:35.379)
What does conscious life do?
Unknown Speaker (00:15:37.080)
So arguably conscious life has always been a good way for certainly people like me to
Unknown Speaker (00:15:42.120)
take the temperature of what sort of quote unquote fringe things are entering the quote
Unknown Speaker (00:15:48.559)
unquote mainstream.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:49.559)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:50.559)
And as you know, as well as anybody, like those terms don't mean anything anymore.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:55.240)
Post Trump, post pandemic, like there's all kinds of things that have contributed to sort
Unknown Speaker (00:15:59.559)
of collapsing this idea of inside and outside fringe versus mainstream.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:05.399)
And you know, so going to events like conscious life always sort of helps me, helps remind
Unknown Speaker (00:16:10.320)
me how little distinction those two things have, you know, where there will be relatively
Unknown Speaker (00:16:15.799)
mainstream celebrities, celebrities at conscious life, and there'll be very fringe ideas and
Unknown Speaker (00:16:19.919)
they'll all be in the same room.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:21.360)
Like the last time I was there in 2020, Russell Brand was actually there because before he
Unknown Speaker (00:16:28.080)
became a YouTube contrarian, so before he became a YouTube contrarian, he was interested
Unknown Speaker (00:16:33.440)
in this idea of becoming maybe like a new age kind of motivational speaker.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:38.799)
And so he was kind of trying that out.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:40.360)
He was selling his workshop, I think costs like a hundred dollars to get into or something
Unknown Speaker (00:16:46.240)
like extra over the ticket price.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:48.600)
So I went and sat in on that.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:49.840)
That was super interesting to watch him trying to kind of like re, um, revamp his image,
Unknown Speaker (00:16:56.159)
you know?
Unknown Speaker (00:16:57.159)
So it's also a good way.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:58.159)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:59.159)
So you caught the proto Russell Brand, he was doing open mics before he started.
Unknown Speaker (00:17:03.879)
It was interesting too, because so Russell Brand has written a book about sobriety, like
Unknown Speaker (00:17:10.160)
talked about getting sober from his various addictions and sort of entering a more spiritually
Unknown Speaker (00:17:14.960)
evolved place in his life.
Unknown Speaker (00:17:18.920)
And then he became kind of a YouTube shouter, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:17:22.319)
And in between he was trying this other thing.
Unknown Speaker (00:17:25.680)
And then of course now he has been accused of this incredibly horrible series of sexual
Unknown Speaker (00:17:30.799)
abuse allegations from, you know, kind of the height of his fame a few years ago, which
Unknown Speaker (00:17:35.960)
has been super interesting to watch how he handles that on YouTube.
Unknown Speaker (00:17:39.759)
So yeah, I really, you know, I wish I could have seen into the future, uh, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:17:44.759)
I mean, that is, that is one of the things that, uh, we've unfortunately run against
Unknown Speaker (00:17:50.039)
is like, um, you know, we've gone back into the past with Alex.
Unknown Speaker (00:17:54.799)
We've seen Russell Brand come up and there's so many times now where you see figures from
Unknown Speaker (00:17:59.680)
the present and you kind of, uh, you know, it's almost an inverse truism that Alex was
Unknown Speaker (00:18:06.079)
right thing is like, if it was on Alex's show, we should have fucking done something about
Unknown Speaker (00:18:11.000)
it.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:12.000)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:13.000)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:14.000)
Like Alex is so wrong that he's created a flex point in the timeline where if we just
Unknown Speaker (00:18:20.240)
did the opposite of everything he says, we'd be great.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:22.920)
There's a lot of foreshadowing, certainly.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:24.839)
There's a lot of stuff where you're like, wow, but also, so I don't know how you feel
Unknown Speaker (00:18:29.559)
about this, but I would sort of say that generally I feel like he really has lost his market
Unknown Speaker (00:18:34.279)
share.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:35.279)
There are so many would be proto Alex Jones is out there competing for his space.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:39.880)
Um, a lot of them are willing to, for instance, like say more extreme things about, you know,
Unknown Speaker (00:18:47.720)
the Jews or white nationalism or whatever, then he is willing to do or are smarter or
Unknown Speaker (00:18:53.440)
are, you know, not banned from every social media platform.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:57.559)
So it's interesting to watch him sort of struggle to kind of regain his footing and then these
Unknown Speaker (00:19:02.720)
new people who are essentially trying to do, you know, exactly what he's done and build
Unknown Speaker (00:19:06.460)
the financial success that he's built because everything else aside, God, he's so rich.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:10.799)
He's so, so, so, so, so wealthy.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:13.319)
Um, yeah, I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:15.759)
I don't know what I'm trying to say there, but it's always just interesting to think
Unknown Speaker (00:19:19.119)
about the ways that he both created this incredibly, uh, effective business model that everyone
Unknown Speaker (00:19:25.740)
else is always trying to emulate and also sowed the seeds of his own destruction.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:33.160)
Well I don't know about his destruction.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:34.160)
That might be exaggerated.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:36.680)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:37.680)
I mean there's a, there's a bit of, there's a bit of, to, to in my mind a bit of, you
Unknown Speaker (00:19:42.960)
know, he took a job opportunity just as much as he created an industry there.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:48.759)
He's a, he's a bullshit launder, you know, like he's, and he's a racism launderer and
Unknown Speaker (00:19:54.079)
he's, he's a kind of way for people to get from Fox News says Texas should be a little
Unknown Speaker (00:20:01.140)
bit lower to like white people should be allowed to run everything for like he's, he's the
Unknown Speaker (00:20:07.160)
pipe.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:08.160)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:09.160)
And I think we watch now is that, you know, there's not as much distance you have to go
Unknown Speaker (00:20:15.680)
between regular to white people should run.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:18.920)
There's not Alex's market shares, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:20:21.599)
There's not as much need for the pipeline.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:24.000)
There's not as much need for the pipeline.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:25.640)
Um, increasingly mainstream figures are much more willing to say things that would have
Unknown Speaker (00:20:29.400)
previously needed to be laundered through a series of waypoints and middlemen like Alex
Unknown Speaker (00:20:33.799)
Jones.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:34.799)
And so now you can just have, you know, the politicians doing the racist dog whistles
Unknown Speaker (00:20:39.519)
themselves or the antisemitic dog whistles or what have you.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:43.000)
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:45.519)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:46.519)
That is what happened.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:49.240)
That sucks.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:50.240)
It's not great.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:51.240)
It's not great.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:52.240)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:53.240)
I'm interested then.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:54.799)
See that's, that's kind of the thing now where I ask myself, what does it take for us to
Unknown Speaker (00:21:00.920)
go from like, uh, we all agree you can't say the N word and we know if you say the N word,
Unknown Speaker (00:21:08.880)
what to do.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:09.880)
We've got it.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:10.880)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:11.880)
What is it going to take for just racist regular old dog whistles that mean the same thing
Unknown Speaker (00:21:17.839)
to the people saying them?
Unknown Speaker (00:21:19.359)
What is it going to take for those to have the same weight or is it just going to be
Unknown Speaker (00:21:24.319)
a, we're always allowed to say like a diet version of whatever slur we want and society
Unknown Speaker (00:21:29.480)
will be like, ah, he's probably funny.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:30.799)
I mean, it's gotten a lot easier arguably to do that stuff in recent years too.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:35.480)
You know, as, as has been discussed ad nauseam, like there has been a return of a radically
Unknown Speaker (00:21:42.039)
regressive viewpoint around things like gender, race, sexuality, uh, that is not just happening
Unknown Speaker (00:21:50.359)
in the U S it's happening across the world.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:52.240)
This sort of return of far right populous leaders who are willing to, uh, pander to
Unknown Speaker (00:21:57.160)
that base and say those things much more openly and overtly is coming back.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:02.559)
Uh, right.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:03.559)
There's, there's just sort of no doubt that the rhetoric that is acceptable in sort of
Unknown Speaker (00:22:09.440)
quote unquote mainstream politics is getting more extreme, uh, all over the world.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:14.799)
And so this is the point where people don't like having me on panels because I always
Unknown Speaker (00:22:21.000)
say that I'm not actually very optimistic about any of this.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:24.119)
Like I do think that we are just getting more politically extreme in the world.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:27.680)
Like we are just getting more polarized things seem to be getting worse.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:31.440)
Um, things that I thought were sort of settled in the U S like the rights of gay people,
Unknown Speaker (00:22:37.640)
for instance, like the idea that LGBT Americans are just generally deserve to be left the
Unknown Speaker (00:22:42.440)
fuck alone.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:43.440)
Even the idea of something as simple as same sex marriage being legal, you know, I am seeing
Unknown Speaker (00:22:47.960)
all of this stuff starting to come up for discussion again.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:51.160)
You know, as you are well aware, people like Alex Jones and others are laundering all of
Unknown Speaker (00:22:56.440)
this really, really intense concentrated panic around trans people specifically.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:01.200)
Um, these are all things that would have been relatively unusual even a few years ago and
Unknown Speaker (00:23:06.240)
they're coming back.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:07.240)
So this idea that we, that we always move in a direction towards sort of progress is,
Unknown Speaker (00:23:12.960)
is just sort of not true.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:14.960)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:15.960)
I, I'm not super optimistic about it.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:17.559)
I don't, I don't have any like solutions.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:19.799)
I have sort of things we can do on an individual level, but I never end up, um, feeling very
Unknown Speaker (00:23:24.440)
optimistic about any of this.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:26.319)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:27.319)
I mean, there's nothing much to feel optimistic about, but that's fine.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:32.039)
I mean, I wonder about that.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:34.599)
I wonder about our, our engagement with that, like the language is getting more extreme
Unknown Speaker (00:23:41.000)
or the like when it speaks to my previous point.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:46.160)
I don't think it's more extreme so much as it's more, you know, like people who, people
Unknown Speaker (00:23:54.079)
have been saying the exact same things about the Jews, uh, in mainstream society for my
Unknown Speaker (00:24:00.839)
entire life.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:02.039)
Just using varying degrees of, that is true.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:05.059)
Is that, would you disagree with that?
Unknown Speaker (00:24:06.480)
I don't disagree.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:07.480)
Have you read Mike Rothschild's new book called Jewish space losers?
Unknown Speaker (00:24:11.480)
Yeah, it was very good.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:13.880)
And again, I thought it was really effective as a way of talking about, you know, yeah,
Unknown Speaker (00:24:17.720)
how those dog whistles kind of wax and wane and how at times there are more overt ways
Unknown Speaker (00:24:22.880)
of talking about this stuff.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:23.880)
And at times, um, it becomes more veiled, but it's sort of, it's sort of always there.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:28.599)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:29.599)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:30.599)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:31.599)
That's true.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:32.599)
I mean, yeah, I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:33.599)
I'm thinking about this like as a, as a Jewish person who works in media, like when, when
Unknown Speaker (00:24:40.940)
people are willing to say the sort of overt thing to me versus the sort of slightly more
Unknown Speaker (00:24:44.960)
veiled thing and yeah, it varies, but you know, there's, there's always been people
Unknown Speaker (00:24:49.920)
willing to say the overt version of the thing the entire time I've been working.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:54.160)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:55.160)
No, I mean, I find it fascinating because I've read, uh, I've read many books, you know,
Unknown Speaker (00:25:00.039)
uh, Rothschild's book, uh, I've read, uh, Charlotte's book and, and these are people
Unknown Speaker (00:25:06.740)
who are entering spaces that are, are like almost two things.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:13.039)
They're curated forms of the racism for the performer, for the, for the audience, uh,
Unknown Speaker (00:25:20.720)
you the, the journalist and, and at the same time, like these, uh, I don't know what these
Unknown Speaker (00:25:31.539)
fictions, um, that, that are meant to kind of, uh, at the same time that they're, I want
Unknown Speaker (00:25:41.079)
to try and explain in a way that makes sense because this is a difficult concept, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:25:47.640)
So when someone like Jeff Charlotte, uh, goes into an openly Nazi anti-Semitic space, uh,
Unknown Speaker (00:25:55.119)
you know, or, or Mike Rothschild or, or, uh, goes into these spaces, these are spaces where
Unknown Speaker (00:26:01.059)
people are allowing them.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:02.440)
So they're obviously going to be like, Hey, we're not actually like kill all the Jews.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:07.359)
Not, that's not us.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:09.559)
We're going to, we're the kind that can talk to you.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:12.380)
That kind of thing, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:26:15.039)
But when you're not there, the racism isn't the same.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:18.920)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:19.920)
I mean, I wrote about that in my book because I went to a gathering held by the traditionalist
Unknown Speaker (00:26:24.640)
worker party and a number of other racist groups that were, you know, trying to have
Unknown Speaker (00:26:28.759)
this whatever, um, partnership, they were trying to form an Alliance and it didn't work
Unknown Speaker (00:26:33.240)
out obviously.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:34.240)
Cause it never does.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:35.240)
These guys are incredibly, they're incapable of working together just as a species, this
Unknown Speaker (00:26:40.759)
particular group of guy, this particular type of guy, they just, they can't do it.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:44.480)
Um, but yeah, obviously, you know, when I was there or when journalists were there in
Unknown Speaker (00:26:49.200)
general, they present one version of themselves and then in another setting, they are sort
Unknown Speaker (00:26:54.440)
of overtly antisemitic and they think we can't see them, but of course we can.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:59.440)
So some of it is being kind of aware of the ruse that they're trying to pull, right.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:06.680)
And incorporating that into your reporting and being like, yes, this is how they act
Unknown Speaker (00:27:11.819)
in front of us.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:12.819)
And this is how they act when they think we're not listening.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:15.160)
Um, you know, like it's, but again, like journalists do fall for this all the time.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:20.400)
There's plenty of coverage of people like Richard Spencer and Milo Yiannopoulos that
Unknown Speaker (00:27:23.680)
was like, well, he's so polite, you know, he has a suit on, he brushed his hair and
Unknown Speaker (00:27:28.039)
it's like, yeah, that none of that suggests that their rhetoric is any less extreme.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:32.680)
But yeah, I mean, you know, they always, they always talk about it in much more overt terms
Unknown Speaker (00:27:38.039)
than they think we can here.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:40.480)
Well, and I, I find that to go even further beyond that, you know, I've spoken to people
Unknown Speaker (00:27:45.559)
who've gone undercover in these, in these areas and there's a different version of racism
Unknown Speaker (00:27:51.799)
for online dating websites that they present, you know, this kind of puffed up over hyper-masculine
Unknown Speaker (00:27:58.859)
version of racism that they'll present.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:01.359)
And so all of these different things to me showcase not so much a, uh, you know, Oh,
Unknown Speaker (00:28:09.799)
this rhetoric is more or less extreme than it ever has.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:13.359)
So much as just, this is what we're doing in this time.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:17.079)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:18.079)
What is the flavor that they're marketing in different places?
Unknown Speaker (00:28:20.799)
Yeah, watching, watching racists try to date, like watching white nationalist men try to
Unknown Speaker (00:28:26.400)
figure out how to find a woman who will be all the things that they want a woman to be
Unknown Speaker (00:28:32.119)
is it's sure as challenging or watching again, like, you know, there have been so many white
Unknown Speaker (00:28:38.319)
women who have tried to become sort of racist influencers.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:41.559)
You can talk about people like Warren Southern who just find ironically that the sexism in
Unknown Speaker (00:28:47.400)
these spaces is so overwhelming they don't get to do what they want to do.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:51.480)
You know, it's sort of funny.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:53.039)
Um, yeah, sorry.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:54.880)
Not really relevant.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:55.880)
It's just sort of funny.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:57.880)
I mean, it speaks to the fact that if your fundamental position is I hate women, you're
Unknown Speaker (00:29:03.960)
probably not going to get along with any of them in whatever context.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:09.319)
Your entire concept is I hate them for being the thing they are, that I'm not even defining
Unknown Speaker (00:29:15.200)
clearly.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:16.200)
It's fascinating, again, this particular group of guys, they're so homophobic and they're
Unknown Speaker (00:29:21.559)
so sexist and I'm just like, God, how do you, how do you end up having any friends?
Unknown Speaker (00:29:27.039)
How do you end up having a family?
Unknown Speaker (00:29:28.519)
Like, you know, it seems tricky.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:32.599)
I mean, but that's, that's why it again gets back to how do you get on that fucking boat?
Unknown Speaker (00:29:37.799)
How do you get on that cruise if you're, you have to be so lonely in a certain way.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:43.920)
It has to be, yeah, so well, my sort of observation generally is the people that were literally
Unknown Speaker (00:29:51.599)
on the cruise and the people who are metaphorically on the cruise, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:29:54.440)
The people who are in the deep end of the pool, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:29:56.799)
All of them end up there because some system of power, some part of society they feel has
Unknown Speaker (00:30:05.299)
failed them.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:06.299)
You know, like all the financial conspiracy theorists I talked to had tax issues or finance
Unknown Speaker (00:30:11.599)
financial issues, all the health conspiracy theorists have an issue where they believe
Unknown Speaker (00:30:14.680)
that they have been harmed by mainstream medicine or the mainstream medical establishment.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:18.960)
You know, this is just really common is that these people have an origin story of some
Unknown Speaker (00:30:25.319)
kind.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:26.319)
You know, Alex Jones is a bit of a mystery even as much as we know about him and about
Unknown Speaker (00:30:32.000)
his sort of like in glorious high school years and all of that.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:36.799)
But I mean, all of these folks have something that they feel, you know, push them into the
Unknown Speaker (00:30:45.480)
position or the space that they're in now and it's always a matter of just kind of figuring
Unknown Speaker (00:30:48.880)
out what it is.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:49.880)
It's why I like asking people about like ask a lot of longitudinal questions of these folks
Unknown Speaker (00:30:54.680)
like, okay, well, what were you doing 10 years ago?
Unknown Speaker (00:30:56.519)
Like how did you grow up?
Unknown Speaker (00:30:59.880)
And sometimes people don't have insights about themselves like that.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:02.960)
They're like, you know, I grew up really normal and now I'm incredibly racist, but like that's
Unknown Speaker (00:31:06.660)
often not, it's often not true.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:09.640)
Which is why you can also benefit a lot when you're writing profiles about people like
Unknown Speaker (00:31:12.960)
this from asking folks around them and people who knew them to kind of pinpoint what happened,
Unknown Speaker (00:31:17.559)
you know, rather than talking to them directly because they're often not very reliable or
Unknown Speaker (00:31:22.799)
self-aware narrators.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:24.400)
Oh yeah, no, I, what was it?
Unknown Speaker (00:31:29.440)
The debutante.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:30.440)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:31.440)
John Ronson's thing about, what's her name?
Unknown Speaker (00:31:35.400)
I haven't really listened to it.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:39.400)
The stories of the boyfriend or the like ex-husband when she was younger, he was just being like,
Unknown Speaker (00:31:45.799)
you know, I don't remember her being that racist.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:48.920)
You know, I got these two fucking swastika tattoos covered up, but I don't remember her
Unknown Speaker (00:31:54.920)
being racist for any reason.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:56.559)
And you're like, okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:57.559)
I got to listen to that.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:58.559)
You're telling a very fun story.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:59.559)
God.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:00.559)
Talk about a guy who's had so much foreshadowing in his book.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:04.720)
When you read the version of Alex Jones that exists in John Ronson's book, Them, you know,
Unknown Speaker (00:32:11.759)
back when he was still dating Kelly, back when he was first infiltrating Bohemian Grove,
Unknown Speaker (00:32:16.960)
God, it's so, so interesting to see sort of how he's depicted and who he appeared to be
Unknown Speaker (00:32:22.319)
at the time versus what he became.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:23.680)
And of course, Ronson has talked about this a lot, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:32:26.960)
You know?
Unknown Speaker (00:32:27.960)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:28.960)
I think that's, again, one of the things that I'm struggling with and we're kind of struggling
Unknown Speaker (00:32:35.079)
with is when we go back to those, even those early episodes, you know, when we go back
Unknown Speaker (00:32:38.859)
to the Y2K episodes of Alex, where you think, oh, this is what he used to be and before
Unknown Speaker (00:32:47.720)
he became what he become.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:51.400)
And the reality is he's really just as racist, just as full of shit.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:57.480)
It's just that the trappings around the conversation at the time were such that he could get away
Unknown Speaker (00:33:03.160)
with people ignoring them.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:06.000)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:07.000)
He also seems a bit more, he's a bit more self-aware at that time in that he, so like,
Unknown Speaker (00:33:13.200)
there's a thing I've written about in the past where he has like a Halloween episode
Unknown Speaker (00:33:15.759)
from when he was still on public access TV, like way back in the day, where he is carving
Unknown Speaker (00:33:19.559)
pumpkins and talking about black helicopters.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:22.279)
And it's funny.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:23.279)
It is legitimately very funny because it's so weird, it's so sort of incongruous that
Unknown Speaker (00:33:28.079)
he's doing this kind of wholesome activity while spouting this sort of insane rhetoric.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:31.680)
And it's tempting to be like, okay, he was aware of how he came across and he's playing
Unknown Speaker (00:33:36.599)
with this image, which is also how people treated his behavior for so long as like a
Unknown Speaker (00:33:42.559)
joke or a metaphor or like an act that he put on that he then shed behind the scenes.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:47.519)
But yeah, as you point out, as time goes on with the consistency of what he says and how
Unknown Speaker (00:33:52.759)
he says it, you can be like, oh no, he really, he really does seem to mean it.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:56.240)
He just had a slightly less genteel presentation as time went on or he didn't have a, you know,
Unknown Speaker (00:34:03.240)
whatever mainstream platform or whatever.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:05.559)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:06.559)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:07.559)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:08.559)
I mean, we weren't, we all too often, we just weren't looking and with, you know, with Russell
Unknown Speaker (00:34:13.239)
Brand, you know, there are so many things I've read recently where people just have
Unknown Speaker (00:34:18.739)
been like, well, you know what, in light of these recent allegations, I went back and
Unknown Speaker (00:34:22.079)
I watched Russell Brand specials and I think he admitted to all of these crimes.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:28.119)
But back then you could just do a special about it.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:30.360)
You know, it's, it's.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:31.360)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:32.360)
Well, especially when it comes to sexual misconduct, there's so many things that in the early two
Unknown Speaker (00:34:37.280)
thousands just kind of flew.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:40.599)
There were so many ways that you could talk about women or talk about your preferences
Unknown Speaker (00:34:43.980)
for very young women, you know, and people, it did not seemingly raise the eyebrows that
Unknown Speaker (00:34:50.179)
it did now.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:51.179)
I mean, yeah, it's interesting to see what we are aware of that we didn't seemingly used
Unknown Speaker (00:34:55.159)
to be as a society.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:57.559)
Oh, the, the shocking nature of like, I remember growing up and my parents being like uncomfortable
Unknown Speaker (00:35:05.840)
with the Simpsons, you know, those first seasons where it was very, very good.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:10.719)
And, and then I go back and I'll watch like a movie from the night, like American pie
Unknown Speaker (00:35:15.119)
or something.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:16.119)
It'll be like, are you shitting me?
Unknown Speaker (00:35:17.639)
This whole thing is sexual assault.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:19.280)
What is going on?
Unknown Speaker (00:35:20.280)
This is wild.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:21.280)
How is this allowed?
Unknown Speaker (00:35:22.280)
Also the very overt sort of homophobia and how often a joke about somebody being gay
Unknown Speaker (00:35:26.679)
or being like effeminate is a major sort of plot point.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:29.559)
Yeah, man, it is so interesting.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:31.039)
Like the, how old are you?
Unknown Speaker (00:35:33.039)
I'm 37.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:34.039)
So yeah, the same period of time, the stuff that was sort of popular when we were in middle
Unknown Speaker (00:35:39.079)
school and high school, it is incredible how poorly a lot of it has aged.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:45.239)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:46.239)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:47.239)
You know, it's crazy.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:49.880)
Holds up.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:50.880)
Air Bud.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:51.880)
Air Bud.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:52.880)
I've never seen Air Bud.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:53.880)
That dog can play basketball and there's nothing in the rules.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:57.400)
He just jumps right in the air.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:01.000)
He jumps in the air and he hits the ball with his nose and the ball goes in the basket.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:04.880)
He doesn't bite it.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:05.880)
He doesn't ever bite the ball.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:08.400)
No, he's too good.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:10.239)
He's Air Bud.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:11.239)
Listen, man, I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:12.480)
I haven't seen, I haven't seen Air Bud or Space Jam.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:15.920)
You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of reference points that I'm going to miss,
Unknown Speaker (00:36:18.440)
like, you know, good for that dog.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:22.159)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:23.159)
Hopefully, hopefully.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:24.159)
I mean, I think they're on, maybe they've made 15 air blank.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:27.880)
Have they?
Unknown Speaker (00:36:29.440)
He's done many sports.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:31.039)
I believe he's done judo.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:33.239)
I think that's possible.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:35.679)
Air Bud is like the earnest of our time.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:37.639)
How long is this dog supposed to be at this point?
Unknown Speaker (00:36:40.239)
Not to be insensitive.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:42.920)
I want to say four months.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:45.000)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:46.000)
I don't know how long dogs live.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:50.320)
So that actually comes back to that.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:53.320)
Does it?
Unknown Speaker (00:36:54.960)
Everybody on the cruise has an origin story.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:59.360)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:00.840)
And I keep finding all of these origin stories.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:04.199)
And even in your, even in the book, you know, these origin stories come from a very real
Unknown Speaker (00:37:09.360)
place, a kernel of reality that is, that's, I guess, kind of thrown them out of whack
Unknown Speaker (00:37:16.320)
or broken their brain in some fashion, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:37:20.320)
You know, like, people talk about how, oh, the government and the financial people ruined
Unknown Speaker (00:37:28.519)
all of my taxes.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:30.340)
But at the same time, there are people who have just lost their way because it's been
Unknown Speaker (00:37:35.039)
seized or whatever.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:37.159)
It is a thing that can happen and does happen to people.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:42.119)
And I'm interested as to how we would react if it, if somebody who, the difference between
Unknown Speaker (00:37:50.400)
somebody who'd really experienced this behaving this way and somebody who has not experienced
Unknown Speaker (00:37:55.440)
it behaving this way.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:56.440)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:57.440)
So this is something that comes up a lot when you write about conspiracy theories is that
Unknown Speaker (00:38:00.079)
systems of power in the US and in other countries are genuinely unjust.
Unknown Speaker (00:38:05.039)
The government has committed outrages and cover-ups and, you know, human rights abuses
Unknown Speaker (00:38:09.199)
that we didn't find out about until years later.
Unknown Speaker (00:38:11.400)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:38:12.400)
And I write about this in the book, conspiracies held by, for instance, black Americans tend
Unknown Speaker (00:38:17.239)
to be rooted in actual stuff that has happened to black people over, you know, the last say
Unknown Speaker (00:38:23.719)
200 years.
Unknown Speaker (00:38:24.960)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:38:25.960)
So a lot of conspiracy theories that are specifically held in black communities, even if they are
Unknown Speaker (00:38:30.559)
not literally true, make a sort of logical sense, like the idea that the levies were
Unknown Speaker (00:38:34.599)
purposely blown up during hurricane Katrina echoes an earlier disaster where levies were
Unknown Speaker (00:38:41.880)
purposely blown up during the, I want to say it was 1911, great flood triggering, you know,
Unknown Speaker (00:38:49.239)
one of the greatest sort of mass migrations in American history, right, of black people
Unknown Speaker (00:38:53.079)
who had to move to the North because they were literally in danger of drowning.
Unknown Speaker (00:38:58.440)
And some did.
Unknown Speaker (00:38:59.480)
And so whenever you're talking to somebody who is, again, in the deep end of the pool,
Unknown Speaker (00:39:06.239)
you know, it is very common for people to say to me, like, how can you possibly trust
Unknown Speaker (00:39:10.320)
the government?
Unknown Speaker (00:39:11.579)
How can you possibly believe the FDA, this or that?
Unknown Speaker (00:39:14.519)
And you know, the answer is I don't necessarily, it's not inherently unreasonable to trust
Unknown Speaker (00:39:20.519)
the government, to believe that you were being lied to about something consequential.
Unknown Speaker (00:39:25.559)
But at the same time, for some folks, conspiracism becomes a sort of reflexive default viewpoint
Unknown Speaker (00:39:32.639)
rather than something where they're actually acting based on evidence.
Unknown Speaker (00:39:36.380)
You know, it can become, I never believe the official story, no matter what it is, no matter
Unknown Speaker (00:39:41.840)
how much evidence there is to support it.
Unknown Speaker (00:39:44.360)
And so it can become almost debilitating for people in a way because their level of distrust
Unknown Speaker (00:39:51.780)
makes them completely unable to see anything other than fear and suspicion.
Unknown Speaker (00:39:57.639)
So, but yeah, I mean, there are plenty of people who have become conspiracy theorists
Unknown Speaker (00:40:03.159)
because things have happened to them or their communities that are genuinely outrageous
Unknown Speaker (00:40:07.099)
and are the subject or, you know, are caused by misconduct or state violence.
Unknown Speaker (00:40:14.300)
So yeah, I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:40:15.300)
Sorry.
Unknown Speaker (00:40:16.300)
That's not a good answer.
Unknown Speaker (00:40:17.300)
No, I understand.
Unknown Speaker (00:40:18.300)
But I mean, I suppose, I suppose by my deeper question is, isn't it not, isn't it incumbent
Unknown Speaker (00:40:27.559)
upon, let's say, the government to not do conspiracies first?
Unknown Speaker (00:40:34.800)
That would be good.
Unknown Speaker (00:40:35.800)
That would be nice.
Unknown Speaker (00:40:37.519)
You know what I mean?
Unknown Speaker (00:40:38.519)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:40:39.519)
Are we, are we ever capable, you know, like the, the conversation about conspiracy theories
Unknown Speaker (00:40:43.820)
often revolves around debunking conspiracy theories or how to keep people from going
Unknown Speaker (00:40:48.739)
down these pathways.
Unknown Speaker (00:40:50.519)
But are we ever even capable of avoiding them if we do, if we just have a government that
Unknown Speaker (00:40:56.119)
does do conspiracies?
Unknown Speaker (00:40:57.119)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:40:58.119)
It can be really frustrating to listen to this sort of conspiracy theory discourse and
Unknown Speaker (00:41:01.719)
have it be centered around people talking about needing to like to quote unquote deprogram
Unknown Speaker (00:41:06.159)
folks.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:07.159)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:08.159)
And often that point of view is being pushed by, you know, people in very like mainstream
Unknown Speaker (00:41:11.559)
institutions, people in who could use a deprogramming, right.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:16.199)
People in positions of power who don't understand why anyone would ever believe in a conspiracy
Unknown Speaker (00:41:21.360)
theory because they don't personally have to, you know, like they are not people who
Unknown Speaker (00:41:24.599)
have ever been disadvantaged.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:25.599)
They are not people who have ever been screwed by the government or some kind of system of
Unknown Speaker (00:41:29.639)
power.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:30.639)
And so they don't understand why people have these viewpoints.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:32.960)
So one thing that I always say is that I think the level of conspiracism in America and in
Unknown Speaker (00:41:38.559)
many other countries is almost like a form of collective trauma where there have been
Unknown Speaker (00:41:43.519)
so many lies for so long that it has driven some people kind of out of their minds, like
Unknown Speaker (00:41:48.960)
they are completely unable to sort of adjust to a world where not everything is a lie.
Unknown Speaker (00:41:54.900)
And so there have been moments in American history where there has been a attempt at
Unknown Speaker (00:42:00.639)
reconciliation and truth telling.
Unknown Speaker (00:42:03.219)
So the church committee in the 1970s was a really good example of that, where this was
Unknown Speaker (00:42:07.000)
when Americans found out about MK Ultra, about the sort of outrages committed by the FBI
Unknown Speaker (00:42:13.880)
against civil rights groups, you know, and individual civil rights actors like Dr. King.
Unknown Speaker (00:42:19.400)
It was a moment when this was the U.S. government saying, you know, we have done these terrible
Unknown Speaker (00:42:25.800)
things, but now we are going to do better, but instead it actually sort of created more
Unknown Speaker (00:42:29.940)
conspiracy theories because the logic went, you know, if they can admit to doing this,
Unknown Speaker (00:42:35.280)
what else are they lying about?
Unknown Speaker (00:42:36.599)
You know, the JFK assassination was sort of the same thing with the Warren Commission,
Unknown Speaker (00:42:40.719)
which, you know, was fairly rushed, did sort of come to what is seemingly a foregone conclusion.
Unknown Speaker (00:42:48.960)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:42:49.960)
There have been plenty of points in American history where even an attempt to tell the
Unknown Speaker (00:42:52.960)
truth has just resulted in people feeling more suspicious.
Unknown Speaker (00:42:57.039)
The way that the government talks about UFOs and aliens and sort of what we know as a country
Unknown Speaker (00:43:02.719)
institutionally about UFOs, I mean, there are so many examples of this.
Unknown Speaker (00:43:08.719)
I think that's what the conspiracy theorists can teach us, though, is that I don't give
Unknown Speaker (00:43:13.880)
a fuck about the truth.
Unknown Speaker (00:43:16.119)
People are interested in consequences also, if not perhaps many people far more so.
Unknown Speaker (00:43:23.920)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:43:24.920)
You know, like with so many of those things, yes, they have admitted to doing stuff, but
Unknown Speaker (00:43:29.519)
then the FBI just keeps getting to do the stuff again tomorrow, and then they just do
Unknown Speaker (00:43:35.960)
it again.
Unknown Speaker (00:43:36.960)
And then, like, you can't apologize to me and then do it again.
Unknown Speaker (00:43:40.440)
Then you've only confirmed to the conspiracy that you do conspiracy.
Unknown Speaker (00:43:45.480)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:43:46.480)
This has been an interesting thing, specifically with the FBI being like, okay, well, at one
Unknown Speaker (00:43:50.239)
point, you know, we harassed civil rights leaders and created, you know, COINTELPRO
Unknown Speaker (00:43:57.639)
and tried to make absolutely certain...
Unknown Speaker (00:44:00.800)
What's murdering Fred Hampton between frames?
Unknown Speaker (00:44:02.920)
Exactly.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:03.920)
Come on, we've all been there.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:04.920)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:05.920)
I mean, you know, right up to the surveillance of Black Lives Matter demonstrators and people
Unknown Speaker (00:44:12.920)
at Standing Rock, I mean, yeah, it's pretty clear that some of the core things have kind
Unknown Speaker (00:44:16.440)
of stayed the same.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:19.280)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:20.280)
So, you know, when people say, how can you possibly trust the government, like, I don't.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:25.880)
I don't expect anyone else to, but that can be really challenging at moments like the
Unknown Speaker (00:44:29.880)
pandemic and COVID, where you want people to trust sort of basic public health advice
Unknown Speaker (00:44:34.480)
to be able to protect themselves.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:35.880)
And that was what was sort of so heartbreaking about the pandemic is that people died of
Unknown Speaker (00:44:41.880)
misinformation.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:42.880)
People got sick and died who didn't need to because they had so much trouble trusting
Unknown Speaker (00:44:48.480)
the quote unquote mainstream or the official narrative.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:51.599)
I mean, that's a tragedy.
Unknown Speaker (00:44:53.039)
Or, you know, when we talk about Alex Jones, people who had so much trouble trusting the
Unknown Speaker (00:44:57.539)
quote unquote mainstream or official narrative that they felt empowered to harass grieving
Unknown Speaker (00:45:04.280)
families who lost their loved ones at Sandy Hook or at other times from other mass casualty
Unknown Speaker (00:45:10.119)
events.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:11.119)
You know, these are folks whose beliefs have led them to incredibly dark places where often
Unknown Speaker (00:45:18.480)
they make other people's lives worse.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:21.360)
And I mean, in it, it's it's I mean, it's almost a mirror that insofar as those people
Unknown Speaker (00:45:28.920)
who are responsible, you know, you have the government responsible for so much inaction.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:35.559)
I mean, depending on whether or not certain reports about Kushner true, downright murder
Unknown Speaker (00:45:40.400)
of Democrat cities, because that might help with voting like these.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:45.539)
These are things that are people are not held accountable for.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:50.880)
And we also have people like Alex, who is not held accountable for the, you know, like
Unknown Speaker (00:45:57.840)
weak.
Unknown Speaker (00:45:58.840)
One of the things that keeps coming up is that idea of, you know, there aren't enough
Unknown Speaker (00:46:01.840)
guys.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:03.039)
We keep seeing the same fucking people over and over and over again.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:07.119)
And it's because they apologize and then they get to come back.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:10.920)
I mean, even in the case of Alex Jones, I can't count the number of people who email
Unknown Speaker (00:46:15.239)
me or tweet at me and are like, I thought that he lost this huge amount of money.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:20.440)
I thought he was held liable.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:21.920)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:22.920)
I mean, you and I have talked about this a little bit over email is just the idea that
Unknown Speaker (00:46:27.440)
like what people see going on with him right now is kind of a level of impunity where you
Unknown Speaker (00:46:35.239)
can be held liable for this massive judgment.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:37.199)
But it will take a very long time for that to catch up with him in any way that really
Unknown Speaker (00:46:43.039)
sort of like matters or makes a difference.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:46.039)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:47.039)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:46:48.039)
I mean, like that if you have a legal system that is so bald faced, I mean, in the favor
Unknown Speaker (00:46:55.119)
of the wealthy, I mean, if you can read a story that says at the very least, 10 percent
Unknown Speaker (00:47:01.119)
of the Supreme Court is purchased by you know, isn't that wild?
Unknown Speaker (00:47:05.920)
How can you possibly and we're just so we're just like, it's so crazy.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:12.000)
No backsies.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:13.000)
No backsies.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:14.000)
It's so wild to read just this incredible series of reports from places like ProPublica
Unknown Speaker (00:47:19.719)
about the Supreme Court and just be like, oh, I guess we're not going to do anything
Unknown Speaker (00:47:24.480)
about that.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:25.480)
And so the problem is that it makes people even more cynical about participating on any
Unknown Speaker (00:47:31.119)
level, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:47:32.119)
Like for so many people, they just say like, okay, I'm done participating.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:35.320)
I'm not going to vote.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:36.320)
I'm not going to read the news.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:37.320)
I'm going to decide that everything is fake and everything is corrupt and I'm just going
Unknown Speaker (00:47:40.400)
to, I don't know, do whippets under the covers.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:46.199)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:47.199)
I don't know how you respond, but that can be bad, too, right, is to tell people, like,
Unknown Speaker (00:47:51.000)
well, everything is rigged, so you might as well not participate.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:54.000)
You might as well not even try.
Unknown Speaker (00:47:55.420)
And that kind of like defeatism and sort of nihilism is something that I worry about because
Unknown Speaker (00:48:00.119)
I think that's that's what they want, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:48:03.840)
You know?
Unknown Speaker (00:48:04.840)
They.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:05.840)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:06.840)
Sooner or later, you get to a they.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:10.320)
Because because there is there is human intention behind the things that occur.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:15.539)
And that's the fucked up.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:17.719)
It's just it's so diffuse, you know, it's so many it's so many mid-level decisions that
Unknown Speaker (00:48:24.360)
generate, you know, like, oh, well, it's not just that a surgeon generals can say something.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:30.639)
It's that down along the line, there are a million different decisions, a million different
Unknown Speaker (00:48:34.960)
conversations that happen with people passively accepting the existence of these people in
Unknown Speaker (00:48:41.320)
places of power.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:42.559)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:43.559)
It's really interesting to me, I guess, too.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:46.519)
It's a way to avoid having to talk about whether we can impeach a Supreme Court justice.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:51.199)
Maybe nobody wants to touch that.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:52.460)
Maybe nobody just wants to wade into that.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:53.960)
And so that's what's going on here.
Unknown Speaker (00:48:56.800)
I genuinely believe that the that a hard maybe one of the hardest parts of discourse right
Unknown Speaker (00:49:05.039)
now is it feels like saying the truth about a thing that's occurring is acceleration is
Unknown Speaker (00:49:10.480)
weak.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:12.679)
Ten percent of the Supreme Court is owned by one man.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:16.179)
That is a true statement.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:17.480)
I don't know what to do with that beyond like if if a conspiracy theorist said that, you'd
Unknown Speaker (00:49:22.039)
go, OK, calm down.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:23.920)
We need to there's not accurate reporting on this.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:27.480)
There's not enough.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:28.900)
And now now it's just that's true.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:31.400)
It's just a true thing.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:33.000)
Which which man?
Unknown Speaker (00:49:34.000)
Sorry.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:35.000)
I'm trying to.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:36.000)
Oh.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:37.000)
Oh, right.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:38.000)
Clarence Thomas.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:39.000)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:40.000)
It's Leonard.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:41.000)
Leonard Leo.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:42.000)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:43.000)
Well, no.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:44.000)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:45.000)
OK.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:46.000)
Well, that guy is also the architect.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:47.000)
Well, again, that guy.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:48.000)
Oh, man.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:49.000)
The Leonard Leo thing.
Unknown Speaker (00:49:50.000)
He just did a story where he's got 40, let's call it a small number of mostly white male
Unknown Speaker (00:49:57.360)
justices in power gathering together to make larger decisions about judicial policy for
Unknown Speaker (00:50:03.400)
the future of the entire country.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:05.400)
Amazing.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:06.400)
Without the input of anybody.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:08.400)
Amazing.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:09.400)
I mean, this is well, this is what people worried about with Bohemian Grove and what
Unknown Speaker (00:50:13.719)
is actually happening in places that are probably not Bohemian Grove is this idea that by and
Unknown Speaker (00:50:19.280)
large things are happening out of our view and out of our control.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:22.599)
I understand why people feel that way.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:24.000)
I do think, so this can be, this is going to sound like a subject change, but this can
Unknown Speaker (00:50:28.159)
be frustrating for me because when I was first working as a reporter in my first few years
Unknown Speaker (00:50:33.079)
I lived in Dallas and one of the first things I got assigned to do was cover redistricting,
Unknown Speaker (00:50:37.480)
which is super boring.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:38.960)
Like a redistricting meeting is like it was often just me and the city council members
Unknown Speaker (00:50:43.679)
on the redistricting committee in the room because it's so boring and it happens on a
Unknown Speaker (00:50:47.679)
weeknight and you just sit there praying for it to end.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:50.800)
It is so important.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:52.360)
It was so important in determining who could vote and whether their votes mattered and
Unknown Speaker (00:50:56.880)
stuff like that that is incredibly sort of consequential, unsexy and also is the place
Unknown Speaker (00:51:03.400)
where people's disenfranchisement starts.
Unknown Speaker (00:51:06.800)
There's no one there because that's how it happens.
Unknown Speaker (00:51:09.639)
They just, they bore you to death.
Unknown Speaker (00:51:11.639)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:51:12.639)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:51:13.639)
It's, I mean, there's a, there's a part of me that says that yes, that's what government
Unknown Speaker (00:51:19.800)
should be.
Unknown Speaker (00:51:20.880)
Government should be so incredibly boring that it should not, there should be nothing
Unknown Speaker (00:51:25.320)
sexy about like apportioning things.
Unknown Speaker (00:51:30.400)
There should not, there should never be an interesting apportionment of grain subsidies
Unknown Speaker (00:51:34.719)
conversation.
Unknown Speaker (00:51:35.760)
That should never happen.
Unknown Speaker (00:51:36.760)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (00:51:37.760)
But now we view government as it's, as a contact sport.
Unknown Speaker (00:51:41.400)
You know?
Unknown Speaker (00:51:42.400)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:51:43.400)
Well, and so people like say Marjorie Taylor Greene who do such insane and extreme things
Unknown Speaker (00:51:49.360)
that they get stripped of their committee assignments in a way she's like, great, now
Unknown Speaker (00:51:52.800)
I don't have to do any of the boring stuff and I can spend a hundred percent of my time
Unknown Speaker (00:51:57.159)
yelling about whatever it is that she's yelling at.
Unknown Speaker (00:51:59.440)
Or people like George Santos, you know, George Santos is probably not doing a lot of actual
Unknown Speaker (00:52:03.519)
work, but he has a lot of time to, you know, get in front of the cameras and act nutty.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:10.639)
You know?
Unknown Speaker (00:52:13.519)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:14.519)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:15.519)
I don't, I mean, that's, that's one I can't quite get a read on, on the plan.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:20.440)
George Santos.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:21.440)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:22.440)
Santos seems, he seems to be, there seems to be very much a kind of in the moment, one
Unknown Speaker (00:52:27.360)
step ahead of a, he's a bit of Aladdin to me.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:30.880)
I'm seeing a street rat kind of escaping from guards at all times.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:35.239)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:36.239)
He's about to jump off a ledge and land into law.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:38.559)
Yeah, I'm curious what's going to happen when he does eventually get convicted of some of
Unknown Speaker (00:52:44.280)
these things, because he's certainly going to, if he's just going to like hole up in
Unknown Speaker (00:52:48.000)
his office and refuse to leave or what.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:49.920)
Anyway.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:50.920)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:51.920)
I guess we'll see.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:52.920)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:53.920)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:54.920)
With the law, the legal system as it is, I don't even know.
Unknown Speaker (00:52:59.960)
I don't trust it to do anything, which is the problem.
Unknown Speaker (00:53:02.639)
The legal system moves very slowly, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:53:05.079)
I mean, again, that's something we're seeing so much with the Alex Jones stuff is that
Unknown Speaker (00:53:10.239)
these families are bogged down in appeals and motions and sort of gentle lawyerly ways
Unknown Speaker (00:53:17.559)
of pointing out like, Hey, this guy is spending all of his money very overtly in public while
Unknown Speaker (00:53:23.440)
our clients have not been paid the judgment that they are owed.
Unknown Speaker (00:53:26.960)
That stuff happens so slowly and these folks can do so much in the public view or can do
Unknown Speaker (00:53:34.280)
so much damage if you see it that way while those processes are playing out.
Unknown Speaker (00:53:38.920)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:53:39.920)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:53:40.920)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:53:41.920)
And, and then, but that's where the, that's again, where the real kernel of the conspiracy
Unknown Speaker (00:53:46.480)
comes in is because I hear that justice moves so slow and I see that it moves so slow for
Unknown Speaker (00:53:53.679)
people with money and it moves so startlingly fast for people without money.
Unknown Speaker (00:53:57.800)
It certainly does.
Unknown Speaker (00:53:58.800)
You know, the amount of time that you can spend in jail awaiting trial on a petty theft
Unknown Speaker (00:54:04.639)
charge and how quickly you can get there is, yeah, it's pretty striking.
Unknown Speaker (00:54:09.599)
It's not great.
Unknown Speaker (00:54:11.559)
So it's, it's coming to a place now where I see this, this disconnect wherein I see
Unknown Speaker (00:54:22.039)
people of course, you know, and it comes back to one of the opening, you know, lines of
Unknown Speaker (00:54:26.920)
Republic of Lies here is that, you know, you felt a little bit bad for them and a little
Unknown Speaker (00:54:37.480)
bit, and a little bit, you know, that idea.
Unknown Speaker (00:54:41.320)
And I, and I totally understand that and I think everybody feels that way to some varying
Unknown Speaker (00:54:46.440)
extent or another.
Unknown Speaker (00:54:49.360)
I'm asking myself now, why is it that I don't want the people who are willing to do something
Unknown Speaker (00:54:58.840)
about this perceived unreality on my side?
Unknown Speaker (00:55:04.239)
Why am I looking at the January 6th protesters and saying anything other than why would people
Unknown Speaker (00:55:12.360)
do this for fiction when the truth is so fucked up?
Unknown Speaker (00:55:16.679)
Why is it that fiction works and the truth won't get people to storm the Capitol?
Unknown Speaker (00:55:23.079)
Whether or not that is a legitimate or reasonable idea is out of, who gives a fuck about that?
Unknown Speaker (00:55:28.639)
My point is these are people who saw a perceived pedophile billionaire government, a government
Unknown Speaker (00:55:35.480)
and went, fuck yeah, let's go.
Unknown Speaker (00:55:38.960)
I would, I want those people on my side whenever I see a billionaire pedophile government.
Unknown Speaker (00:55:43.440)
I think that you should never underestimate people's willingness and desire to engage
Unknown Speaker (00:55:48.239)
in mob violence, ultimately.
Unknown Speaker (00:55:52.840)
So that's, that's, you're not going to get it on like a, you're not going to mobilize
Unknown Speaker (00:55:56.820)
people.
Unknown Speaker (00:55:57.820)
You do not in fact have to hand it, you do not in fact have to hand it to the January
Unknown Speaker (00:56:01.239)
6th guys.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:02.239)
No, they did not have a plan.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:04.559)
They were not coming out in the streets to, you know, demonstrate in favor of an idea.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:09.800)
They wanted to, and they did commit mob violence and then were very surprised when they got
Unknown Speaker (00:56:15.860)
in trouble for it, which continues to be super interesting to me.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:19.400)
But no.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:20.400)
Yeah, I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:21.400)
Maybe it's a good thing that we're not constantly out in the streets throwing fire extinguishers
Unknown Speaker (00:56:26.440)
through windows and, you know, stealing Nancy Pelosi's desk files over other things.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:33.239)
You know, maybe that's a good thing.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:35.239)
Sure, sure.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:36.239)
I respect, I mean, again, I respect that.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:38.559)
It's, it's, it's not that I think it is a good myth.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:44.000)
It's that I find it strange to live in a world where, you know, it is accepted and honest
Unknown Speaker (00:56:52.840)
truth that a third of, you know, growing up, a third of our government is the judicial
Unknown Speaker (00:56:58.679)
branch.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:59.679)
And it is accepted and honest truth that that is completely correct.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:05.920)
And that's just, and there's nothing that can be done about that.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:09.559)
Yeah, I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:12.400)
That's a good question.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:14.199)
Can anything be done about it?
Unknown Speaker (00:57:17.519)
I mean, theoretically, theoretically, but we have a president who won't do that.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:22.719)
And no, no president coming in, in our reasonable future, the Supreme Court's not going to hold
Unknown Speaker (00:57:31.420)
itself accountable.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:32.659)
Congress can't hold it accountable.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:34.420)
So we have all three branches of government unwilling to hold themselves accountable or
Unknown Speaker (00:57:38.440)
each other accountable.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:40.440)
Which kind of dismantles that whole, like, checks and balances.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:44.000)
Yeah, I mean, I guess what we're talking about fundamentally is the difficulty in making
Unknown Speaker (00:57:48.760)
sort of a systemic change that feels like it actually matters.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:53.639)
And I can say like, oh, well, you know, that stuff happens, but it happens very slowly.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:57.079)
But I don't know that it does necessarily.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:58.960)
Yeah, I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:00.559)
Again, this is why I don't get invited to, like, think tank panels and whatever, because
Unknown Speaker (00:58:06.719)
I'm not somebody who thinks that we can just vote our way out of this or fund whatever.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:16.159)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:17.159)
There are some things that I am optimistic about on a personal level.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:21.440)
So there's this University of Cambridge study that I talk about all the time where these
Unknown Speaker (00:58:24.320)
researchers created a game to teach people how misinformation spreads.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:29.119)
And you act as a misinformation peddler.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:31.760)
The game is called Bad News.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:33.360)
And you use all these different tactics to kind of promote lies.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:36.800)
And after people played the game, they were better at identifying fake headlines, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:58:41.000)
They were just better at sort of assessing news.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:44.360)
And so that tells me that, at least on individual levels, people can get better at figuring
Unknown Speaker (00:58:48.639)
out when they're being lied to or manipulated, which ultimately, like, that's a small thing,
Unknown Speaker (00:58:51.920)
but that's a good thing.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:53.800)
It's good that people can learn those skills.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:56.920)
Especially younger generations, like, it can only help if folks are not as easily manipulated
Unknown Speaker (00:59:03.760)
in the future as maybe some of the people out on January 6th were.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:08.119)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:10.119)
I mean, I suppose the problem I have with that kind of as a, I mean, it's not bad, obviously.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:18.440)
It's just that part of why people are susceptible is because it's not my job to notice.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:26.760)
It's not my job.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:27.760)
It's not my job to be able to parse news.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:31.739)
That shouldn't even be a thing I have to do.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:34.760)
I just, I'm a comedian.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:36.679)
I should absolutely not have to parse news.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:39.599)
That shouldn't be a job that exists.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:41.880)
Those are famous last words.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:43.599)
That's a fundamental aspect of the system that is fucked up, is that before I even get
Unknown Speaker (00:59:50.699)
to figure out who I am, I am under attack by people who are capable of weaponizing information.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:57.320)
And it's going to get worse, I mean, as things like deepfakes get worse, as, you know, AI
Unknown Speaker (01:00:03.920)
gets more sophisticated, like, it's only going to get harder to sort of trust what's in front
Unknown Speaker (01:00:07.880)
of you.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:08.880)
I've been doing all this reporting lately in the sort of Latter-day Saint world, and
Unknown Speaker (01:00:14.880)
I was listening to a conservative podcaster.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:16.639)
Yes, fantastic reporting, by the way.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:18.480)
I was listening to this conservative podcaster who was talking about one of the sort of scandals
Unknown Speaker (01:00:22.519)
that we've been reporting on, and he doesn't know whether or not to believe it, because
Unknown Speaker (01:00:25.159)
it doesn't line up with his kind of political priors, and he said something that I was really
Unknown Speaker (01:00:29.739)
struck by, where he said something like, you know, I believe that AI is going to become
Unknown Speaker (01:00:33.719)
so sophisticated that someday we will have to, um, he was basically saying that he would
Unknown Speaker (01:00:40.800)
have to trust in the Lord in the future to decide what was true and what was not in the
Unknown Speaker (01:00:45.159)
news, and what was manipulated and what wasn't, that he was just going to have to go by the
Unknown Speaker (01:00:48.440)
guidance of, like, the spirit, and what was sort of in his, like, spiritual judgment,
Unknown Speaker (01:00:52.960)
and that's terrifying to me, that...
Unknown Speaker (01:00:55.760)
Why?
Unknown Speaker (01:00:56.760)
Because that's completely different from what he's doing now.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:59.239)
I mean, fair enough, that is sort of what he's doing now.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:02.360)
It's fair enough.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:03.360)
I guess I'm worried about a future where people are even more comfortable saying, this doesn't
Unknown Speaker (01:01:08.880)
feel true to me, so I'm going to deride it as fake, and I'm worried about an informational
Unknown Speaker (01:01:15.320)
ecosystem that becomes so chaotic that it is reasonable for people to feel that way,
Unknown Speaker (01:01:19.599)
that they can't separate truth from fiction.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:21.280)
There's a couple of really good books by a journalist named Peter Pomerantsev, who briefly
Unknown Speaker (01:01:27.079)
worked for, like, a hipster kind of alternative news channel in Russia, and came to kind of
Unknown Speaker (01:01:34.280)
understand that what he was actually doing, what he and his colleagues were doing, was
Unknown Speaker (01:01:37.760)
sort of like doing the acceptable form of opposition to the establishment, that essentially,
Unknown Speaker (01:01:44.039)
like, the Kremlin was still ultimately sort of determining what they were allowed to do
Unknown Speaker (01:01:47.880)
and report on, and were sort of still in control of the information ecosystem, including the
Unknown Speaker (01:01:53.679)
sort of so-called opponents, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:01:55.679)
So he's written two books about kind of, like, state-backed disinformation and how it works
Unknown Speaker (01:02:02.079)
and how it looks.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:03.079)
There's also a really interesting book about, completely separate, but about the kind of
Unknown Speaker (01:02:10.599)
counterculture in Germany right when the Berlin Wall fell.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:15.239)
And so a bunch of people in the sort of post-punk scene in Germany who had been out, like, demonstrating
Unknown Speaker (01:02:21.760)
against sort of the wall and the kind of repressive government, it turned out were actually secretly
Unknown Speaker (01:02:26.659)
in the Stasi, and were actually being paid by the secret police.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:31.219)
And so a bunch of people who were, again, in the kind of, you know, scene who were protesting
Unknown Speaker (01:02:40.760)
against the wall came to wonder if what they were doing and how they were doing it was
Unknown Speaker (01:02:44.800)
being secretly directed by the government that they were fighting against.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:48.920)
It's like this really interesting, yeah, I don't know, like, people have so much trouble
Unknown Speaker (01:02:52.860)
figuring out who to trust and whether or not they're being manipulated, and that's not
Unknown Speaker (01:02:57.119)
a new problem, but it's only getting worse.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:59.320)
Seems bad.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:00.320)
I do want to talk about your reporting on Tim Ballard, because I've been following this,
Unknown Speaker (01:03:07.840)
and it's one of the most emblematic stories of our time, I think, is like, the most famous
Unknown Speaker (01:03:16.039)
anti-child trafficker in the United States is, of course, trafficking children from time
Unknown Speaker (01:03:21.840)
to time.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:22.840)
He is not trafficking children, per se.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:25.199)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:26.199)
What is going on?
Unknown Speaker (01:03:27.880)
You have to qualify that.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:30.139)
So what I will say is the reporting that I have done with my colleague Tim Marchman indicates
Unknown Speaker (01:03:36.000)
that he is being accused of sexual misconduct, and the women suing him for sexual misconduct
Unknown Speaker (01:03:42.880)
while on these missions have said that the attorney said that he was functionally trafficking
Unknown Speaker (01:03:49.159)
these women who are accusing him of sexual misconduct.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:51.480)
And so, you know, that is the accusation that they are making.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:56.679)
But yeah, certainly you can say that somebody who was a crusader against certain types of,
Unknown Speaker (01:04:01.599)
you know, sexual violence is being accused himself of sexual misconduct, which is certainly
Unknown Speaker (01:04:07.239)
very interesting.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:10.760)
Not least of which to go along with the, I mean, Mormon revelations of faith.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:18.840)
How would you describe it?
Unknown Speaker (01:04:20.679)
So...
Unknown Speaker (01:04:21.679)
He's the second coming of the prophet Ephos?
Unknown Speaker (01:04:25.119)
No.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:26.119)
But he is said to have spoken to the prophet Nephi, who is a figure in the Book of Mormon.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:37.079)
So what we know, again, is that Tim Ballard, the former head and founder of Operation Underground
Unknown Speaker (01:04:44.800)
Railroad, whose work we have written about at Najim for the past three years, seemingly
Unknown Speaker (01:04:51.480)
believed that his anti-child trafficking work was to be used to lead people to the covenant,
Unknown Speaker (01:05:00.000)
as he called it.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:01.000)
To lead people to Mormonism, and seemingly, according to people who talked to him about
Unknown Speaker (01:05:05.440)
this, who heard him talking about this, he believed himself to be kind of a messianic
Unknown Speaker (01:05:11.639)
figure who was meant to, you know, do all of these extremely large and revelatory things
Unknown Speaker (01:05:17.440)
in society.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:18.500)
He was also supposed to recently announce a run for Senate, which we had every indication
Unknown Speaker (01:05:23.059)
that he was going to do that, and then all of these sexual misconduct allegations started
Unknown Speaker (01:05:27.679)
coming out, and he has not done that.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:30.559)
So I'm super curious if he's going to run for Senate, or if that's not going to happen
Unknown Speaker (01:05:34.800)
anymore.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:35.800)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:36.800)
If he thinks he can just, you know, post through it, so to speak.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:40.760)
Yeah, I mean, because this was supposed to be, the Senate run was something we've been
Unknown Speaker (01:05:44.199)
hearing about for years, that he was doing this anti-child trafficking work, that he
Unknown Speaker (01:05:47.719)
saw himself as having a future as a Senator, and maybe the President of the United States,
Unknown Speaker (01:05:52.880)
and you know, that he was going to do all these like huge inconsequential things and
Unknown Speaker (01:05:55.519)
become an enormous kind of very famous public figure, and I am super curious if he tries
Unknown Speaker (01:06:01.360)
to enact any of those things now that he is facing so much pushback.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:10.519)
I am interested to see how much the Mormon Church wants it out there that this dude thinks
Unknown Speaker (01:06:19.360)
he can talk to dead cities, and whether or not that's like a totally okay thing for people
Unknown Speaker (01:06:27.000)
to do in Mormonism, and whether or not that's a totally okay thing for people in an elected
Unknown Speaker (01:06:31.800)
office to believe.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:32.800)
I have no idea what the Mormon Church thinks about that.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:37.320)
I'm not Mormon, you know, I've been kind of learning about the faith as I go, I mean,
Unknown Speaker (01:06:42.559)
but the church did issue a statement to us, to me and Tim Marchman at Vice News, kind
Unknown Speaker (01:06:49.079)
of denouncing him, saying that he had leveraged his relationship with a senior apostle in
Unknown Speaker (01:06:55.559)
the church, President M. Russell Ballard, who's in a very high position in the church,
Unknown Speaker (01:06:59.559)
saying that Tim Ballard, they're not related, they have the same last name, but they're
Unknown Speaker (01:07:02.440)
not related, had kind of-
Unknown Speaker (01:07:06.199)
Happens a lot in Mormon.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:07.199)
Actually, yeah, there are a bunch of overlapping last names, where occasionally I'll get an
Unknown Speaker (01:07:10.480)
email from someone and be like, oh, I know that you're LDS, because you have the, yeah,
Unknown Speaker (01:07:14.000)
it's a, you know.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:15.000)
Anyway, saying that he had inappropriately sort of leveraged his friendship with M. Russell
Unknown Speaker (01:07:19.000)
Ballard to promote his own financial interests and to, you know, conduct sort of morally
Unknown Speaker (01:07:24.880)
unacceptable behavior, is I think what they called it, but they didn't specify what that
Unknown Speaker (01:07:28.239)
meant.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:29.239)
It could have been referring to sexual misconduct, we don't know.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:31.679)
So yeah, trying to get statements from the church about this has been super interesting.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:37.239)
Yeah, that's such another aspect of this that I find both, like, so completely obvious,
Unknown Speaker (01:07:47.480)
so horrifically disgusting, and almost kind of pointless in a way, is that reflexive knee-jerk
Unknown Speaker (01:07:52.960)
like, we're not willing to say what anybody did, we're not willing to take responsibility
Unknown Speaker (01:07:58.380)
for anything, we're just giving you a statement that we're no longer associated with.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:02.639)
It was interesting.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:03.639)
Yeah, well, so, okay, a couple things.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:06.059)
One is obviously-
Unknown Speaker (01:08:07.059)
You could just say, fuck that guy!
Unknown Speaker (01:08:08.880)
That's available!
Unknown Speaker (01:08:09.880)
I mean, arguably they did, to the extent that it is, you know, permissible to say that.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:16.840)
Here's the thing.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:17.840)
A religious institution is an enormous bureaucracy, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:08:20.920)
And so we're super aware that when we get a statement from the Church of Jesus Christ
Unknown Speaker (01:08:25.079)
of Latter-day Saints, it's gone through, like, layers and layers of, whatever, legal vetting,
Unknown Speaker (01:08:31.960)
you know, discussion, like, that every word has to be agreed on by a bunch of people.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:35.439)
So, you know, it's hard to get a statement from an institution.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:39.479)
There's been all this discussion lately about whether or not Tim Ballard has been excommunicated
Unknown Speaker (01:08:43.359)
from Mormonism, which is a rumor that has been going around for years.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:46.760)
It is actually not something that we can conclusively prove or disprove, because the church will
Unknown Speaker (01:08:52.520)
not issue a statement about it.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:53.960)
That's not what they do, like, most of the time.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:57.479)
And he would have to issue a statement about it, which he's, you know, not going to.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:01.000)
So that's been super interesting, to report on something where certain things are simply
Unknown Speaker (01:09:05.479)
not knowable, unless the main character tells you, which, in this case, he hasn't chosen
Unknown Speaker (01:09:10.199)
to do.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:12.199)
Well, thank you so much, Anna, for joining me.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:17.199)
This has been an absolute delight.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:18.880)
Thanks for having me.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:20.439)
Obviously your book is Republic of Lies, and your current advice, is there anything else,
Unknown Speaker (01:09:26.720)
anywhere else that people can find you?
Unknown Speaker (01:09:27.720)
I mean, I suppose you can find me on Blue Sky, if they ever let people join, and I'm
Unknown Speaker (01:09:33.000)
still on Twitter for now.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:35.000)
Yeah, and occasionally on German TV, talking about aliens.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:41.399)
I was interviewed by a German television station about aliens, and so occasionally I get, like,
Unknown Speaker (01:09:47.000)
a rush of, like, follow requests from random Germans.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:49.800)
So do not follow me on Instagram, but, you know, if you're ever, you can't sleep in Germany,
Unknown Speaker (01:09:53.739)
you might see me on TV.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:54.739)
That'd be fun.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:55.739)
All right.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:56.739)
Cool.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:57.739)
Look out for that.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:58.739)
We have German wonks.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:59.739)
No problems.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:00.739)
I'm sure, I'm sure you do.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:01.739)
Well, thank you very much.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:02.739)
Thanks for having me.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:03.739)
And, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:04.739)
Andy in Kansas, you're on the air.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:05.739)
Thanks for holding.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:06.739)
Hello, Alex.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:07.739)
I'm a first time caller.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:08.739)
I'm a huge fan.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:09.739)
I love your work.
Unknown Speaker (01:10:10.739)
I love you.
