Transcript/802: Chatting with Sian Norris

Warning: Bot Generated Content
This transcript was automatically generated by transcription software and likely contains many mistakes and misattributions. Please check the audio for definitive quotes, attribution, and context.

Unknown Speaker (00:00:04.000)

Red Alert. Red alert. Red alert. Red. Alert. Red alert. Knowledge five days. Damn, Jordan, I am sweating. Knowledge party.com It's time to pray.

Theme Song (00:00:21.000)

I have great respect for knowledge like knowledge. I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys Hsiang me or the bad guy. Knowledge. I'm Dan and Jordan knowledge fight need money Andy and Sandy are stopping Andy and Pam handy in Kansas. Andy in Kansas, you're on the airplane. Huge fan. I love your word. Knowledge by knowledge fight.com.

Jordan (00:00:59.000)

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to knowledge fight. Once again. It's just me, Jordan. Today I have with me, author journalist, Sean Norris, whose new book bodies under siege, which I assume is history of Steven Seagal is crimes.

Sian Norris (00:01:20.000)

That has been the running joke between me and a couple of my friends.

Jordan (00:01:25.000)

I believe it. It's right there. You can't not do it.

Sian Norris (00:01:28.000)

Exactly.

Jordan (00:01:30.000)

So, Shawn, I want to welcome you to the show. And I want to ask you the question we ask everybody, which is, what's your bright spot today?

Sian Norris (00:01:38.000)

So my bright spots today has been that my best friend was staying with me this week. And I hadn't seen her for a couple of months because she lives in France and I live in the UK. So it's been a really lovely week of like friendship and sisterhood and drinking probably too much wine and having really nice weed.

Jordan (00:01:55.000)

That's wonderful. That's a that's a bright spot. That's a great spot bright spot. It's better than mine. Mine is socks. My wife and I went to a novelty sock store in Canada. And I've been wearing my Let me double check. Yeah, deal with it socks, which have icicles on them. That's what

Sian Norris (00:02:21.000)

I think socks are important. Having new socks is like a much underrated pleasure in life. In my opinion.

Jordan (00:02:27.000)

I swear to you, I wear the same clothes every day. The only expression I have now is just socks. That's it. Ironic socks is my my bright spot. So, Shawn, I wanted to start by giving people a little bit of background on you. You I if I understand correctly, you started more as a fiction writer short fiction and the like and then became a human rights journalist traveling around the world kicking ass? How did that transition work?

Sian Norris (00:03:02.000)

So I mean, I like to think of myself as a fiction and short fiction writer. But to be honest, I didn't have that much fiction published. I had a few short stories published. And as many journalists and writers are I'm constantly trying to finish that novel that will become a huge blockbuster hits one day. Sure, sure. I think I was always really interested in writing and telling stories. And I really wanted to do that, like in whatever form it took. And I think, you know, alongside my sort of background, writing fiction, was also this background in feminist activism and human rights activism, particularly on women's rights, abortion rights, obviously, and LGBTQ plus people's rights. And so that really kind of led me to sort of bring those two skills and passions together. How do I talk about the issues facing women and marginalized people? And how can I use my skills as a writer that leads you to human rights journalism. And so for the past couple of years, I've been a staff writer on a independent paper in the UK, but recently gone back to freelancing, which is definitely my happier place so much more. I much prefer freelancing and having that extra bit of freedom. And yeah, and it's just sort of, yeah, like reported on human rights and women's issues from Bangladesh, from Kenya, from Romania, from the US looking from the UK, if that makes sense, haven't actually been on the ground in the US. And obviously,

Jordan (00:04:28.000)

you're not missing anything, you'll be fine. It's garbage except for, I don't know, 2030 places, everything else we can just get rid of. So yeah, so one of the interesting things that I noticed on that front is that with your short fiction, it is far more rhythmic. In terms of your structure, your sentencing all of those things. Whereas when I read this book, it is I don't know I would almost describe it as a hammer. You know, This Yeah, darts and it keeps driving the point, the point the boat, you know, like that kind of thing. Why do you feel like there's a deliberate choice to? I mean, obviously, there's a deliberate choice between the two. But do you feel more comfortable in one or the other?

Sian Norris (00:05:17.000)

I don't know, if it's necessarily feeling more comfortable. It's just that they require really different styles. So I think when I what I wanted to achieve with with this book was a couple of things in terms of form and structure in it one to like, get across the urgency. I mean, obviously, we're in a slightly different place now because of the overruling of Roe and the success of the Dobbs case in the US. But when I was started writing this book, a lot of people didn't really take it very seriously. When I was saying, you know, this is a real threat to abortion rights, this right to abortion rights is coming from white supremacy and white male supremacy in particular. So I was very much like, I have to get this across, I have to really be urgent, I have to really, as you say, How am I home? What is going on and why this is an issue. And I wanted to be really, really clear. And make make my points really clear. And particularly said it wasn't just speaking to someone like not speaking to myself, like, Oh, I know these issues, because I've been buried in them and researching them and reporting on them for a really long time. So how do I really open it up and make sure that someone not as engaged although I think people who read the book are gonna be somewhat engaged in women's rights issues, just because unless they're in So Steven Seagal and I pick it up by

Jordan (00:06:31.000)

airport, you know, it's a real airport. You know, you see it right next to Bill O'Reilly's books. It's i Yeah, nice little summer, summer vacation read. Yeah, yeah.

Sian Norris (00:06:43.000)

There's obviously when you're writing fiction, you can be a lot more playful. And you can play around with language and, and shapes of sentences. And I think that's one of the things I really enjoy about writing fiction, although I haven't done any for a while, like I keep saying, as I say, gonna finish that novel.

Jordan (00:07:01.000)

Right? Well, I mean, last, the last interview I did was with Jeff Charlotte, and his book was written, I mean, obviously, it's different because it's written from a man. And it's talking about very, very similar issues, from a different lens. And from his creative writing background, you know, or creative nonfiction background, you can definitely see how he's trying to craft the stories within the story, in order to kind of do a little. I mean, I'm not, not politically here, but it's an entertaining book, and that way, and then, like I said, from, from your point of view, from your perspective here, this is not entertainment. This is a fucking emergency, you know, we got to start riots is is the way that I felt from that,

Sian Norris (00:07:52.000)

I think is that as points in the book, where I do try and kind of create a paint a picture of what was going on, for example, there's a section on the January the sixth insurrection, and I try and like get go into like, what it was like what it looked like, from watching it on the news in the UK, that but at the same time, I wrote most of the book during the pandemic. And in the lockdowns, which meant, there wasn't a lot of opportunity to go anywhere. There was a point when I went to North Bristol, and I was like, wow, it's like, the furthest I've been from my house for four months. So I think that was that kind of, you know, there was a potential to sort of, in another time to have gone to different places and described what I was seeing and kind of embedded myself more in in communities and, and movements, but because to the restrictions of the pandemic, it just wasn't a possibility.

Jordan (00:08:41.000)

I think that even from that perspective, and that's what I want to get into next about the book is you start off by kind of listing out the main characters. Because when we are talking about so our show, I know you have no idea who we are, which is fine. We cover Alex Jones of info, yeah, exclusively for way too long. And our character lens is going to be through that. You know, and you were talking more about a global, I don't want to say conspiracy, but a grouping of different people who are interested in restricting women's rights in different places around the globe. So I wanted to I wanted to give you an opportunity to kind of give some of those Greatest Hits. As far as Kenya, the the organization's there. I mean, the I wanted to hear more about the Dutch. What was it? Let me take check Miami Asante. Yeah, yeah, I wanted to definitely hear more about that. So could you could you kind of do that for us real quick?

Sian Norris (00:09:54.000)

Yeah, sure. So, the sort of, I mean, if I go back a couple of steps, the way that I looked at this research and the way I wanted to structure the book was to show that there is a pipeline between extremist anti abortion ideas that kind of fester and ferment in you know, very dark spaces, you know, far right neo Nazi groups and extremist anti abortion groups. So in the UK perspective, I mentioned organizations like patriotic alternative, which is a far right group based here, and a center for bioethical Research UK, which is a branch of a US organization. And it's a very small group, but it's very extreme anti abortion group in the UK. That's one

Jordan (00:10:34.000)

of my naming conventions. Is that very simple. Oh, we're just the bioethics commission. Also, right, we kill babies, you know, like, we hate people and all that, you know, yeah, I get it.

Sian Norris (00:10:46.000)

Yeah, they've got such a benign name. And yeah, their actions are really, really extreme. And, you know, they become very well known for like displaying very unpleasant and graphic abortion imagery, outside MPs, constituency offices, and also outside clinics and things like that. And then I kind of look at the sort of more mainstream organizations, which I kind of think of as the next stage in this pipeline. So you get this sort of extremist ideology. And then it's laundered by more mainstream groups who, you know, can go to the UN who go to the European Courts of Human Rights, who take amicus briefs to the Supreme Court in the US. So these are people like Citizen NGO, which is a Spanish organization, Alliance Defending Freedom, which I'm sure you as listeners will be really familiar with that very influential and very influential on the whole road debate. And then from there, these organizations kind of take the extreme anti abortion ideology, clean it up, put it in a PowerPoint presentation, which to share while wearing a seat. And it goes into politicians. And the politicians then kind of enact a lot of these policies, in terms of restricting abortion rights, or pushing really anti immigration policies and saying that the way to resolve things like demographic winters, or so called demographic crisis, is to restrict women's reproductive freedoms. So that's when we look at places like Hungary in Europe, Poland, obviously, which has a very strict anti abortion ban, and also issues in the UK as well. So yeah, so I guess like some of the organizations that are really focused on you mentioned in Kenya, I've done a lot of work on this organization called Citizen go, which, as I said, is a Spanish grip. And they're sort of modus operandi is to get people to sign petitions, which focus on a whole range of sort of anti gender initiatives. I mean, it's a really random selection, everything from, you know, Roe versus Wade to a Netflix show that's got a gay character in it,

Jordan (00:12:45.000)

right? Well, that's why we talk about with them is, why the fuck are they there? Who fucking cares? What is a Spanish organization doing? I mean, essentially, once again, colonizing Kenya, this idea of structure?

Sian Norris (00:13:01.000)

Well, this is yeah, this is where I got really angry. Because one of the sort of things that citizen NGO has done in Kenya is it's got a representative in Kenya, she's a Kenyan woman. And, you know, she's addressed the United Nations about abortion rights in the country, and LGBT rights. And they argue that abortion and LGBTQ plus people's rights are like a Western imposition on traditional Kenyan values and traditional African values. And of course, this completely ignores the fact that citizen NGO, is a Spanish European organization imposing its ideology, and its motivations on Kenya. And when I was in Kenya last year, you know, I was talking to a gynecologist who's quite high up in the sort of medical profession over there. And he was saying, we've always had abortion in Kenya, abortion is traditional in Kenya. So the idea that these global North organizations can go into the global South, and try and spread their ideology and spread their ideas, and then claim somehow that they're, you know, presenting to African values is really offensive. And it's offensive to the amazing, you know, pro abortion activists who are working really hard in Kenya and in other parts of Sub Saharan Africa. And of course, it doesn't go also very active in Latin America. And the kind of very close to the Spanish far right party Vox as well.

Jordan (00:14:23.000)

That leads me to my next question, is there anything white people can't steal?

Sian Norris (00:14:30.000)

I don't think so.

Jordan (00:14:33.000)

The correct answer

Sian Norris (00:14:35.000)

is the right to just go in and, you know, take your rights movements and yeah, tell you tell you what your histories are and tell you what your values are. I mean,

Jordan (00:14:47.000)

can you used to be filled with white people who have the traditional Spanish values that we always thought it's so crazy how that worked out?

Sian Norris (00:14:55.000)

Absolutely. And I think in terms of particularly we're seeing a massive backlash against LGBT rights in East Africa at the moment. And you know, a lot of the laws that we see against LGBT people are really rooted in those colonialist era laws from, you know, the 1800s. And when Britain was going stomping around the place telling everyone had to live their lives and how to behave, and we don't seem to have stopped doing that.

Jordan (00:15:22.000)

Yeah, it feels to me like anything that's more than 200 years old, should probably be updated. But you know, right. I can't, I'm looking at Windows trying to install a new version. And I'm saying no, maybe I'm on the wrong side of history here. That is entirely possible. I do want to, I do want to throw in something that is very almost kind of insidious, here is that a lot of religious organizations that you talk about in the book, present themselves in the United States and in the UK as one thing, and then when you see their behavior in other countries? It is I mean, disgusting. So can you like as as I was saying, like the Dutch Reformed Church, was it?

Sian Norris (00:16:12.000)

Oh, yeah. So NOT HERE WE GO de the Dutch Reformed Church. Yes.

Jordan (00:16:16.000)

That's what it was. I got it in my notes. Yeah.

Sian Norris (00:16:21.000)

So the Dutch Reformed Church was very is the church that the DeVos family were members of? Exactly. So obviously, Betsy DeVos was Trump's education secretary. During what I think it was all of his presidency, was it? I got so confused that people were changing jobs every two minutes.

Jordan (00:16:41.000)

Um, yeah, I think she might have been the one that made it the whole way through, she might have won the race is

Sian Norris (00:16:46.000)

survivor,

Jordan (00:16:48.000)

possible. I mean, when you're a billionaire, it helps.

Sian Norris (00:16:51.000)

It does help. And I mean, he was education secretary at a time when anyone could see the administration was really going after so called woke curry in schools, from, you know, a backlash against positive representations of LGBT people, a backlash against, you know, any materials that talk about black history, talk about the enslavement of people in America and African American people. And obviously, she also put in her firing line at the protections for sexual harassment for schoolchildren. So there was a lot of really reactionary activity going on from Betsy DeVos when she was education secretary. And then when you look at the sort of background of her and her family, you start to see okay, well, she was part of this thing called a Dutch Reformed Church, which was a very reactionary church, very anti abortion, very anti LGBT. Her, her foundation that she runs with her husband funds, anti gender, organizing anti gender campaigning all across the world, as a foundation that is linked to her family, the prince family, so you know, maiden name is Prince. And I think this is when it gets really interesting. Have you

Jordan (00:18:04.000)

heard Terry, formerly known as Prince,

Sian Norris (00:18:07.000)

right? Yes. But it gets really interesting hold of these families are so connected, and these funding streams become very connected, and they're coming from this really shared ideology, and how they use that money from, you know, all sorts of different sources of wealth to try and influence abortion rights all around the world. So I think it's really concerning that these, you know, again, maybe just in America, very, very wealthy individuals have taken on this ideology. And I'm trying to import it, and, you know, force that ideology on to more. I mean, I don't like the word more vulnerable populations, but that is kind of the terminology we use, I guess. So, you know, was it might not have the same health infrastructure, or the same infrastructure around women's rights? And, yeah, it's a really dangerous combination.

Jordan (00:18:58.000)

Well, I mean, you know, it's hard not to say vulnerable when the reason for the vulnerability is because they've been denied so much by the people who are also destroying them now. So it's not a vulnerability, it's, it's fucking trauma throughout that entire time. And that's why I there was a line that I really, really appreciated, which was without access to reproductive, why rights women can never be free, which is a good line. But I was wanting to ask you, what does that freedom actually look like? Do you know what I mean? Like right now? Yeah, I would argue that the vast majority of human beings on this planet believe in some form of restricting women's reproductive rights one way or the other. So how is it that we see that actual freedom for reproductive rights?

Sian Norris (00:19:53.000)

So to me, it's that freedom, is it. It's sort of about reproductive justice. So the idea is that when when when we have reproductive rights or reproductive justice and women can be free. And that means that we have the choice to control our own fertility, the choice to end a pregnancy, that we don't want to have the choice to continue a pregnancy that we do want to have. And then when that baby is born that wanted baby, we can have access to secure housing, to education, to social welfare, to work. And for that work, to be flexible, and to be supportive of the family that you want to have. And I think that's a really important aspect of women's freedom. It's not just about saying, Oh, you have a right to abortion, it's also about saying that you have the right to, you know, the families that you want, and the support that needs to be in place for you to achieve that. And I think fundamentally, you know, I say that we can't be free unless we have reproductive rights, is because the driving force behind the anti abortion movement is to control women, and to control women's bodies, and to put women's bodies to work to reproductive exploiters for reproductive labor. And as long as we're saying that it's possible for someone else to control and own our bodies, then we can never be free. And when we say that, actually, I get to decide what happens to my body. And again, that expands beyond just having an abortion that can be who I want to have sex with how I want to have sex with that person, you know, whether I want to have a baby at all, it's like, when we give up that space, when that right is taken away from us, that very bodily freedom is denied to us.

Jordan (00:21:29.000)

Right, right. I mean, but that's that, I suppose, is my question. I mean, I feel like our society when I'm reading through your book, it is hard not to continually make these connections that basically, our entire culture is in some form or another based around commodification of women's bodies, control of women's bodies that say, you know, I was thinking, the, you know, we we've often described sex work as the oldest profession. And the more I think about it, the more I think that is the entire basis for capitalism, selling women's bodies in one way or another without their consent or control. So, in essence, if you want to have full reproductive rights, it has to be the entire system that goes, right.

Sian Norris (00:22:23.000)

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I would say so. I think one of the really interesting things to look at is Sylvia Federici, his work and she wrote this book called Caliban and the witch which looks at the links between reproductive rights or reproductive exploitation and the roots of capitalism. And reading that book was just such a lightbulb moment. For me, it was like one of those moments being like, oh, okay, this all makes sense. This was planned. Like, this is how it's supposed to be. And I don't like it. And I want to change it. Yeah. But it's absolutely

Jordan (00:22:56.000)

a bug. Yeah,

Sian Norris (00:22:58.000)

yeah. And it's absolutely about that this idea that women's bodies are put to work in order to create the next generation of workers. So women's bodies need to be constantly reproducing, otherwise, the capitalist system collapses. And it's really interesting stuff, both in Federici his work and in Angela Davis's work about how that links to the enslavement of African American people. And how black women who are enslaved, you know, if they ended a pregnancy, that wasn't seen as her having an abortion or anything to do with her body that was seen as her stealing from the enslaved from this one. So as soon as you sort of eat these connections are suddenly like, okay, because that's what women's bodies are for in this society. And to deny that to say, actually, I'm not going to play a part in that actually, I want to have control over my own body. I don't see myself as a reproductive vessel. It's like, Oh, that is too much. You cannot have that that would, you know, that is women's freedom. And that allows freedom for everyone. And so it has to be stopped.

Jordan (00:24:01.000)

Right? Right. And that I mean, that takes us directly into the the twin Insell and aggressive monster characters in your book and the fun. The thing that I can't get out of my head about that is how obsessed in cells are with controlling women's bodies. But oh my gosh, yeah. It's it's like, they're also miserably unhappy all the time. And they blame their inability to control women's bodies for that misery, but it wouldn't make them happy. Do you know what I mean? Like even if there was control, even if they had complete control, it would only be a different form of misery. How is it that that is so constantly exploited by people who are only benefited by it? Do you know what I mean?

Sian Norris (00:24:52.000)

Yeah, I mean, I find it in so subculture, endlessly fascinating and a grim way. I actually tried to enroll in one of the N cell web sights and get my own Intel profile. But you have to like, apply. And you have to give a statement as to why you want to be in instead. And they rejected me. Oh, what was your feeling? Like? I think I just said something like, oh, I used to be red pill. But now I black pill. And, you know, I just, I just think I really messed up. I was like

Jordan (00:25:20.000)

a fiction writer. I bet you got more language about abusing women than they do.

Sian Norris (00:25:28.000)

I know, I think I went too heavy. Crazy. But um, I think yeah, the interesting thing about the insults, and the reason I included them in the book is because they represent this, this idea of white male supremacy and the belief that women's bodies need to be exploited for reproduction in order to defeat the so called Great replacement, which is a far right conspiracy. I'm sure your listeners know.

Jordan (00:25:54.000)

Oh, boy.

Sian Norris (00:25:56.000)

Yeah, exactly. So that was kind of the interesting aspects I found in the in cell movement was how they were replicating this great replacement, conspiracy theory and melding that with their desire to control women's bodies. You know, there were people who are going, Oh, in the perfect society, all men will be guaranteed a wife. And back in the past, you know, women knew their place, and it was to have be married and to have babies. And then obviously, the kind of usual disgusting and soft stuff where they talk about what they do to women's bodies. But yeah, I think you're right. It's like, I mean, one of the I wrote an article at the turn of this year about how the inner cells really don't like Andrew Tate, who is this kind of man who has just been arrested at that time?

Jordan (00:26:41.000)

I will say this to the audience that we have is so completely familiar with many of these monsters.

Sian Norris (00:26:50.000)

Okay, that's great. So I don't have to explain.

Jordan (00:26:52.000)

Every single one of them. Yeah. But

Sian Norris (00:26:55.000)

what I thought was interesting was that they position Angie Tate, as someone who exploits men like them as in men who are in sales, because He promises them this lifestyle where they can get women and they can, you know, gain women into having sex with them. But actually, and then, but he's doing it by asking them for money and asking them to like, give him money, and then he will teach them how to get women. So they actually see him as this really bad character, because he's exploiting them. And in that way, he's a bit like a woman, because that's

Jordan (00:27:26.000)

something we can all agree on. Andrew, a woman, it's about time that we all got there. It's been too long.

Sian Norris (00:27:35.000)

So it's interesting again, how Yeah, these kinds of systems exploit in cell misery. But also, I mean, I spent a lot of time on in cell forums. And I just the hate that they expressed is so extreme. And I remember the first,

Jordan (00:27:52.000)

like, their brains are fucking wild. I, the only thing that will make me happy is a woman, and I hate women so much. It's like, yeah, how your existence makes no sense to me.

Sian Norris (00:28:05.000)

And, you know, there's a lot of really disturbing trends as a result of that in terms of their obsession with, you know, very, very young girls, because at least they're not, you know, they haven't been corrupted by women heard. And I think it's a really Yes, I think it's very tempting sometimes not to take himself seriously because they are just so awful. But actually, some of the things they say and do does require some kind of analysis. Well,

Jordan (00:28:33.000)

in your in your book, you you go through a lot of that and part of the cycle, the spinning back round thing is that the disillusionment with capitalism strengthens the grip that these extremists have on people like insoles. And it's it's like that that damaging thought process they have on one place makes them ripe for grifting. From another from another angle. And that is the top down feedback loop that I wanted to kind of talk with you about. There are so many different financial backers for all of these horrific organizations. And they push this message, and then the people below them get the message and reinforce that and it creates that feedback loop that only increases the extremity over time. The thing that I am trying to figure out is where does it start? So in your in your like, globe trotting adventures? Does it start at the top or does it start at the bottom? Where's the chicken or the egg in this scenario?

Sian Norris (00:29:45.000)

That's a really good question.

Jordan (00:29:47.000)

I know.

Sian Norris (00:29:49.000)

I wouldn't I don't know if I know the answer. I think it's it's really difficult to define because the sort of, as I said, the argument I try and make in a book is that the These ideologies kind of ferment in these far right corners and have become mainstreamed. But but in order to, for these ideologies to ferment in the first place, they need to, as you say, start somewhere. It needs to be the egg that hatches. Exactly. And I mean, I think one of the sort of complicated things with abortion rights is how it has been a very long standing route, you know, Rose 50 years old, before it was overturned, you know, that kind of the backlash against roe started even before it had come into law, right, like these organic people were organizing. Well, I think

Jordan (00:30:38.000)

back even further before that, you know, abortion was legal in the United States. Yeah, in the 1860s. Well, you know, it's almost like every 50 years, some assholes are good enough at propaganda to convince people that abortion is so wrong, that they have to ban it, or they have to unban it, you know, it is it's just a never ending cycle.

Sian Norris (00:31:03.000)

But I think that's interesting as well, because one of the points that I make in the book is when abortion was banned in the states in the 1860s, it was coming from a position of anxiety about women's in political empowerment, and rising rates of immigration. That is where we are now, you know, the, the panic around abortion rights is coming from this great replacement conspiracy theory, which was we hear parroted by mainstream politicians now. And, you know, women's political empowerment, this is like, post me to where women are supposed to be doing better than ever, like, right, and yet, suddenly, so that it's like, oh, shit, we've got to take her rights away, we've got to have this backlash. And we've seen that throughout history in Weimar Germany, pre sort of the Nazi era, in 20, early 20th century Italy, before fascism, women's empowerment, growing immigration becoming higher up the agenda, and then bam, we ban abortion rights. So I think in terms of where it comes from, it's kind of like the ways in which political narratives take hold on these sort of intersecting issues around race, gender, sex, and immigration, in order to kind of ferment insecurity, and fuel, anger and fuel resentment, which then allows for this backlash to happen. And so it's that kind of meeting point between the activists and the politicians and the funders, that creates this whirlpool of hate and anger. And that is, yeah, whether that starts with a politician who stands up going, we've got a problem with immigration and as a low birth rate, or whatever, it starts with the guy on line going. I'm really, that's a massive replacement. And women are aiding it because of their all of their abortions. It's the same thing, it's just a different way of phrasing it.

Jordan (00:32:52.000)

Well, I mean, you know, it is it is like, they wouldn't be able to exploit the anxiety people have over being replaced. If there wasn't anxiety people have over being replaced. And they wouldn't be able to create that anxiety, whole cloth unless there was already anxiety there. So yeah, at the end of the day, the problem is, everybody's fucking anxious all the goddamn time. Because nobody knows what's gonna happen.

Sian Norris (00:33:20.000)

And that anxiety, again, comes from instability around politics, economics. You know, the final chapter of the book sort of looks at the impetus of the 2008 financial crash, for why we're having this backlash. And it's well, because that the stability that we've kind of gotten used to in the Global North, was really, really shaken. And the ideology that we've been living with fell apart. And we were like, Okay, what do we do now, like in the UK, we've never really recovered from the crash, like, our wages, our economic output is still really, really poor.

Jordan (00:33:56.000)

Well, it's hard to get directly to the crash. Right?

Sian Norris (00:34:00.000)

Yeah. I mean, it was, you know, I very feel very strongly that we don't talk enough about the crash and its impact because it's helped shape so much of UK politics, and, you know, politics across the region. And if you say it created this anxiety, that it was then filled with bad actors going, Oh, well, the real reason you're anxious is because women have gained some rights and a real reason you're anxious because there's like too many immigrants coming in. And the real reason you're anxious is because of Black Lives Matter and drag queens telling stories in libraries. And it's just it builds and builds and builds and then politicians who want to hold on to power exploits all of that.

Jordan (00:34:40.000)

Right. Why is it that their message seems to be a lot more popular than it's the fucking bankers. You know, it feels like that should be the message all the time is that it's the fucking bankers again, dammit, they got us. You know.

Sian Norris (00:34:57.000)

I think it's kind of two pronged really That's the first is that it's much easier to punch down, right? Like, it's much easier to blame someone who you think is, is, is like it. Like, if you're, if you're mad at women,

Jordan (00:35:13.000)

you're gonna be in range. Yeah, that makes

Sian Norris (00:35:16.000)

Yeah. And, you know, you're like, well actually, why does this woman have stuff that I don't have, she should get down, she should be pushed down and I'm gonna push her down. And the other fact is that I think there's this still have a really strong belief that, you know, like, if you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and you work really hard, you can be as rich as Ivanka, you can be as powerful as you know, that's all the result of hard work and not the result of capitalist systems that exclude and enrich. And so I think there's this reluctance to kind of punch up because, number one, it's harder to take on a whole huge system. And number two, you think, Oh, well, I wouldn't mind a slice of that pie. I'll just keep quiet. And then maybe they'll give me some

Jordan (00:36:00.000)

Sure. Sure. Well, I mean, then I suppose I want to ask, what kind of messaging do you think could actually break through? You know, instead of instead of allowing the messaging of, you know, punch, hey, let's hit women. That's easy, easy message. It's been working for 1000s of years. What kind of message can we push through that?

Sian Norris (00:36:26.000)

So I mean, I think a lot of people reach for the really obvious message that like, patriarchy hurts men too. And, you know, capitalism hurts all of us. And I think we need to, like start putting forward. And I'm always like, yeah, patriarchy does hurt men too, but also men benefit from patriarchy. And that's why we've got it, like, you know, two things can be true at once. So I think we just need to like, and I felt like this, going back to 2016, when it was the referendum in the UK of a Brexit, the remain campaign, which I voted for came out with such negative messaging, it was all just like, if you vote for brexit, the whole economy is going to collapse. And everything was terrible. And turned out they were right. But there was no sort of positive vision for what remaining in the EU would look like there was no sense of like, if I vote remain is going to create a stronger Euro, I'm gonna have access to, even if they just said back to remain in the EU, and you won't have to queue at the airport anymore. Like, yeah, just like a positive vision. And I think that's what we really need to start doing for women's rights and human rights across the board. So one of the really exciting things that happened last, I think it was last year was there was a referendum in Hungary about LGBTQ plus rights. And the pro LGBTQ campaign went out. And they told really positive stories about gay people's lives, or LGBTQ people's lives. And they spoke about how your friend or your son or your daughter, or your auntie could be gay, you know, it was like, we're a community, we're in your community, we were all part of this. And, and they weren't like the referendum that the result that the government wanted, you know, didn't have didn't happen. They, the government failed to enact some of the repressive legislation that they wanted to enact, they obviously have put in some other things. And I think, going out with that really positive message, like gave people a reason to vote in favor, because they're like, yeah, actually, my next door neighbor is gay. And I really like him. And we have a really great time. And we both like, we talked about our dogs, and as opposed to always kind of going, everything's terrible, everything's terrible, things are gonna get worse, things are gonna get worse. Like, and it was one of the things that there was a film called, yes, which was about the Chilean referendum. And it was just, that was the sort of message of that film of like, show, show what a positive difference can be made. If you believe in human rights, and you support human rights, you know, you'll have half, you know, women won't be dying. Like, you'll have like, Healthy Families, happy communities, like the people that you love will be better cared for and have, you know, better mental health and will have stronger economies and all of these things can happen. But I think for understandable reasons, we can be very negative because things are very, very bad right now. But if we're going to win, we need to start showing what winning means and what change could look like.

Jordan (00:39:21.000)

Right? I you know, I, I think when you say things are really really bad right now, you are 100% Correct. But I find it hard not to go through your entire book and see that there's a an almost almost unspoken thing that is alluded to throughout the entire thing, which is, I would say that part of all of this and maybe the largest part is the structure and the system and the male monopoly on violence on physical actual violence. And that there's really, I mean, no, no strategy to deal with that. So, is it? Is it something honestly where it should be? Should we find a way to lessen their ability to commit violence? Or, honestly, I mean, it's terrifying. And what you wrote in the book makes me feel like maybe I should start learning how to use a gun. Do you know what I mean? Like, this is a hammer, and you have to take responsibility for making me want to get a hammer.

Sian Norris (00:40:35.000)

Oh, nice. Thank you the gun. We're gonna west. So I guess like, in terms of

Jordan (00:40:42.000)

fucking states, okay. Yeah.

Sian Norris (00:40:44.000)

Joseph, like men's violence against women. I mean, obviously, that underpins that, that is, underpins gender inequality, like, you know, again, we can't be equal, we can't be free, so long as men use violence against women to, to control and, and subdue women. But I think, again, it's about making that case for like, why women's rights are important. You know, we know that the more equality women can get, the more we have gender equality, that the more we can impact and reduce the levels of male violence, you know, more, because women are respected and seen as human, and seen as having equal value to men. And so there's no reason to be violent towards those. And I think it's again, it's about really striving to see women's rights as something that is positive for society and positive for men as well. Because, yeah, like, it doesn't have to be this way. And and, you know, men's violence is a sort of tool of patriarchy, and patriarchy is so linked to capitalism. But if we fight for a fairer and more equal society, you don't need to keep control for violent means, because there isn't that need for control in the first place.

Jordan (00:42:00.000)

Right. Right, that that makes me go, I mean, see that that lessening violence kind of thing, and that it is part of the patriarchy, you know, the story you tell of doctors letting a woman die of sepsis, because of an abortion ban, that immediately brought me to the Milgram experiment, if that makes sense. You know, like, how is it possible for a doctor to watch someone die? Just because an authority says that's what you have to do? You know, it's, it's a passive version of continuing to increase that voltage.

Sian Norris (00:42:38.000)

Yeah, so the cases that I write about in the book, obviously happens in Poland, where we've got a very strict abortion ban. And obviously, there was the case in Ireland in 2012. And study two died. And then obviously, around the world, you know, 1000s of women die as a result of unsafe abortion or not having access to safe abortion. I think what's so disturbing and, and this is, you know, the stuff about Poland. And servita is, is really a message to the United States, like, because this is coming to your doors, like women will die as a result of jobs. And the reason they will die is because you have told doctors that they will go to prison, if they act. And so you have doctors who, you know, want to help women, they want to do the things that they used to do they want to perform surgical abortions, that will save women's lives. But if you're constantly being told that that could result in you going to prison for life, and you think there's a teeny tiny chance that this woman will pull through and abort debate the fetus naturally, then of course, you're gonna keep holding and holding and holding until there's no options left. I think one of the things saying

Jordan (00:43:46.000)

of course, see that's that's why the Milgram experiment. Yeah, what what level? Why do you think that it's okay to give this random person 300 volts? Because the doctors told you to press the button? Why do we say of course, why don't doctors just say fuck you put all Yeah. Then bring it back and see how that fucking goes.

Sian Norris (00:44:11.000)

I mean, that's what you need. Really, you need a mass movement of medical professionals to say that they're not going to comply with the law. And I think the really scary thing about that I've seen coming out of the anti abortion movement in the US is they're already preparing for when the women start to die by saying, Oh, well, the law allows the doctors to intervene and if the doctor doesn't intervene, and that's the doctors fault. And it's like, no, the law is really murky. The laws are not clear. There's not a moment in the law where it's only like a now you can intervene and everybody will agree that this was the moment. So by creating these bad laws, and failing to recognize the medical realities of women's bodies, and not respecting doctor's expertise, this is this is what happens this is a result Have those bands. And, you know, I remember really just thinking when the women in Poland died because she was the same age as me when she died. And I just kept coming back to that I was like, You're the same age as me. And you're, you know, you've died because you weren't allowed to have a surgical abortion that would have saved your life like that. The horror of it is, I still really, really feel the horror of like that news story and what the woman's mother said and the video of her, you know, it was just a really horrifying, I don't want to say tragedy, because it's not a tragedy when it's deliberate

Jordan (00:45:33.000)

murder. Yeah, that's a murder, that is a state sponsored execution. And to look at it any other way is doing a disservice to her, I would say,

Sian Norris (00:45:44.000)

Yeah, I think, you know, the voices of the women and their families needs to be prioritized. And I think one of the things that makes me so particularly angry about what's happening in the States is, when in 2012, to be TO HELL UP having a died, that was a trigger for change in Ireland, it was like, Okay, this cannot happen again, we cannot keep going through this, something is going to change. And you know, six years later, they overturn the abortion ban, and now they're safe legal abortion in Ireland. I think what happened with the Polish death deaths, and what will happen when women start to die in the US is like, this is the start. This is the start of, you know, the process, there's no change coming, this isn't the end of something bad. This is the beginning of something that is going to get worse and worse. And, and that's really frightening. That's a really frightening state of affairs.

Jordan (00:46:33.000)

Yeah, I mean, it does feel as though if we are in a state sponsored execution territory, the next step for everyone is going to be denying immoral laws, and simply refusing to comply with them. And then there are women in the States be there. But again, your book really hammers home that it is going to be the state that enforces the patriarchy continually. I mean, it is that's just what's going to happen. The state wants to do that it's part of their their jam, if you will. And so your your book makes a very unspoken argument for beginning to just ignore immoral laws. Otherwise, we're just going to be at the at the fucking Hague at the Nuremberg Trials all over again, saying no, no, I was just told to do it.

Sian Norris (00:47:27.000)

It's the I feel I'm such a law abiding person. Yeah, obviously went revolution.

Jordan (00:47:33.000)

Yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna have to pick one or the other. I feel like you can't do that anymore. That's not possible.

Sian Norris (00:47:40.000)

There are some cases going through in the States right now of women, you know, taking action against incidents where they've been denied abortion care in in life threatening situations. And hopefully, if nothing else, that will start raising the alarm, you know, forcing people to take action, and maybe overturning some of these bands. But we'll have to see how they get on.

Jordan (00:48:05.000)

So you are advocating for a change within the law?

Sian Norris (00:48:11.000)

Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm advocating that they're not to be any abortion bans. Like my position is that abortion is healthcare, and therefore it should be regulated as healthcare. You know, in the in Britain, abortion is still governed by criminal law, which is completely, you know, inappropriate. And as long as we see abortion as something that's around a moral issue, or a criminal issue, is always going to be vulnerable to these kinds of bands and these kinds of restrictions. But as long as if we start talking about abortion as healthcare, and valuing it as women's access to health care, then we can start to have real change.

Jordan (00:48:47.000)

I know that it's very regular, but there's nothing funnier to me than weird old men wearing wigs in robes arguing about whether or not abortion should be legal. So I'm sorry that the justice system in Britain is so silly.

Sian Norris (00:49:04.000)

We have Yeah,

Jordan (00:49:07.000)

I find it insane that we've given nine people wearing mus almost infinite power forever, right? That seems a little bit crazy. And nobody continues. Nobody's just talking about how stupid that is like on a fundamental level. There are 3 million people here and we're letting nine assholes dictate the future.

Sian Norris (00:49:28.000)

So really, I mean, if I'm a you know, across the pond, it does seem like a really weird system. But and I say that for coming from a legislature where someone wearing a big black robe bangs on their parliament stores with a big stick the beginning of every year

Jordan (00:49:43.000)

and not just that but still did before she died.

Sian Norris (00:49:49.000)

Yeah. At least we get a bank holiday when the king gets currently

Jordan (00:49:58.000)

that is every sir Oops, life in the history

Sian Norris (00:50:04.000)

supposed to be so grateful besides to be so grateful that we got this extra day off?

Jordan (00:50:10.000)

Yeah, the pyramids is like finally we get a day off.

Sian Norris (00:50:15.000)

Yeah, so yeah, I mean, it's a very, I find the supreme court system very odd. And it's clearly up for abuse. That's that's what we can see if you have political appointments in a judiciary that is open to abuse. And that's what we're seeing in different legislators around Europe as well, I think there's this sort of feeling that it's only in the US Batchi political appointments in the Supreme Courts in different European countries is also having profound implications on people's rights. Of course,

Jordan (00:50:48.000)

of course. And that's, that brings me to, I think we're, I think we're coming up at an hour, so I won't keep you too much longer. But I did want to say, while you've while you've done your traveling and your reporting, have you seen examples of it going a better way, as opposed to the way the rest of the world seems to be going? You're relentless in negativity.

Sian Norris (00:51:13.000)

Know, but we took out the positive example, taken out of the first graph. So obviously, the main example is Ireland, you know, what we saw in Ireland was just an unbelievable show of what happens when you don't compromise on advocating for reproductive rights. When you you go out there, and you say, This is what women need and deserve. Abortion is health care. And every woman should have a right to control her own body. And we saw feminist organizations and human rights organizations come together as a coalition, and I spoke to one of the leaders of the coalition just like, you know, after day after the referendum, we're all back to rowing again. This time period was like, Wait, we have one goal, and we're gonna unify and we're gonna go after it. And, you know, it was never given that the yes side would win the referendum. It was always felt very touching go the no side. So the the ones who wanted to keep the Eighth Amendment once he wanted to keep the abortion ban, when added with everything, you know, just very, very vicious campaigning, very graphic campaigning, US actors coming in to Ireland to sort of spread the anti abortion message. And it didn't work in

Jordan (00:52:32.000)

business, why are they there? Right? Right. But it doesn't work.

Sian Norris (00:52:35.000)

It didn't work and what worked was telling women's stories, and championing women's and, you know, women and pregnant people's experiences, and, and refusing to say refusing to compromise on it. And now Ireland has more, you know, as a liberal abortion laws. Similarly, in the UK, we've we've seen progress in that abortion was finally decriminalized in Northern Ireland. So Northern Ireland was not covered by the 1967 abortion Act, which allowed for abortion in certain circumstances in the rest of the UK. And it's taken a lot of like political campaigning, and, you know, some problematic political campaigning to get it decriminalized in Northern Ireland. And then in Britain, we've had, you know, buffer zones implemented so people can no longer go and harass women outside of clinics, we've had changes to the law that allow women to take abortion pills at home. So we have seen like positive progress and abortion rights in our little corner of Europe. And I think one of the messages of Roe as well was that while it's been a disaster for the US, and has emboldened the anti abortion movement around the world, is also kind of put some fire into the pro abortion movement in that, you know, we, like other nations have been like, Okay, we need to actually do some more to protect abortion rights in our own constitutions. And when I reported on roe being overruled back back in last year, I spoke to layer doctor from the Center for Reproductive Rights and she was like, Look, this is really terrible. But one thing to remember is that since 1973, I think 50 free countries have improved access to abortion, and only four countries have rolled, rolled it back. So

Jordan (00:54:19.000)

you, you I'm sorry.

Sian Norris (00:54:24.000)

Um, so you know, progress is happening and positive. And and that comes from again, being really vocal by by demanding abortion is healthcare by not compromising by saying that women's lives matter and women's bodies matter and women's health matters. And and that women's freedom matters. And I think, yeah, there is there is optimism to be had, even though we're going through a real backlash.

Jordan (00:54:49.000)

Yeah. So I think that I think what you're you're saying is that the political strategy should be like, Hey, we're done arguing with each other for a little bit. Unless just go fucking hard on this issue, unite for at least a day to do this thing. You know, let's just focus on one fucking thing for once in our lives instead of changing the narrative every week.

Sian Norris (00:55:14.000)

Yes. And I think the, you know, the left in general in the feminist movement, in general could learn a lot from the tactics of the Irish referendum. You know, actually we can, there's, there's a famous phrase that Joe Cox said the MP who was killed, like, there's more that unites us than divides us, you know, with that we have more in common than what, then what we want what devices and I think we should remember that as the left movement and the feminist movement, we've got common goals, and we can fight for them, and we can move towards them. And yeah, it doesn't mean we have to like each other doesn't mean we disagree on on some things. But actually, if we're fighting for women's freedoms, then we have to, we have to really go for that. And, you know, I come from the British left, we're always screaming at each other. We've got, we've got a shared goal and a shared vision and we can achieve it.

Jordan (00:56:12.000)

Well, I think that's a great place to leave it then. Sean, thank you so much for joining me your book bodies under siege comes out 16th, our audience would know would like to know how best to support you directly. So is that pre orders? Or should they? Do you sell yourself in some in some fashion?

Sian Norris (00:56:33.000)

I mean, I don't sell it myself. But um, yeah, pre orders would be great. So you can get it from the verso website. And it's available for preorder. And I guess, you know, it will be available for preorder and like all the main bookseller websites, I guess, name a few. But I know it's definitely available for preorder from first so. And yeah, and I don't, I'm hoping to come to the States at some point. But otherwise, yeah, it's exciting. Please go and buy it.

Jordan (00:57:06.000)

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks for holding. Well, Alex, I'm a first time caller. I'm a huge fan. I love your work.