Transcript/781: Chatting With Will Sommer

Warning: Bot Generated Content
This transcript was automatically generated by transcription software and likely contains many mistakes and misattributions. Please check the audio for definitive quotes, attribution, and context.

Theme Song (00:00:04.000)

Red Alert. Red alert. Red alert. Red. Alert. Red alert. Knowledge five days. Damn, Jordan. I'm sweating. Knowledge parties.com It's time to pray. I have great respect for knowledge like knowledge. I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys shank me or the bad guy. Knowledge. Dan and Jordan knowledge five need money? Andy and pansy Vandy. You're stopping Andy and Pam handy in Kansas. Bray Andy in Kansas, you're on the airplanes rolling. Huge fan. I love your world. Knowledge by knowledge fight.com

Dan (00:00:59.000)

Hey everybody, welcome back to knowledge fight. I'm Dan. I'm Jordan. Dudes like to sit around worship at the altar of saline and talk a little bit about Alex Jones.

Jordan (00:01:08.000)

Oh, indeed. We are Dan. Jordan. Damn, Georgia. Quick question. Yeah, what's your bad spot today but

Dan (00:01:13.000)

my bright spot today is I have rekindled my love of Sonic. I was telling you just before we started recording that I need to stop ordering Sonic. Yeah, but there is while you're

Jordan (00:01:23.000)

not talking about Sonic the Hedgehog to be clear, we are talking about Sonic the restaurant

Dan (00:01:26.000)

although there's overlap because Sonic loves chili dog. You are right. And the thing that I love at Sonic is the fact that they will deliver a chili dog. You're a hedgehog. Yep. Very fast. I love rings. I'm constantly onion and Nan, constantly being plagued by an evil scientist named Eggman. There's a lot of overlap. But yeah, I have recently been eating a ton of Sonic and man. It's just great. It's a dark bright spot though because I need to stop. Right. Right much.

Jordan (00:01:57.000)

Yeah, I mean, there's a little bit of man heroin is great in that robot. Have you tried it is good. I gotta quit. But I'm telling you good stuff. It's good stuff.

Dan (00:02:07.000)

It works for what they say it's gonna do you know, it promises and to deliver. Yeah,

Jordan (00:02:13.000)

what's your my bright spot is? Dan, as you know, I've been playing video games on the Twitch stream. Have

Dan (00:02:20.000)

you been trying speed right?

Jordan (00:02:22.000)

I've been trying to speed around. I've been learning it and so far, I'm about 30 hours into seven or eight hour speed run. And I did finally defeat a boss. Well, for people who know FF seven, they'll know that carry armor is a boss in the game. That is difficult, even if you are playing it casually. Even if you're powerful and over leveled and all that stuff. It can still be difficult. And to beat it the way that I did. through trickery, and exploiting the game's own resources against it. It was an achievement. I was very happy with

Dan (00:02:59.000)

adulation. See when you were fighting them where you were going to that guy was a gun for unarmed?

Jordan (00:03:04.000)

Yes. No, not him. That's not a guy who's got a gun on his fight. No, no, no, I've got the guy who flies the spaceship with a spear.

Dan (00:03:12.000)

I don't know if I know that guy. Exactly. Sounds cool.

Jordan (00:03:14.000)

He's pretty chill.

Dan (00:03:16.000)

So Jordan today we have a little bit of a special episode, we got a guest to chat with us. And we're very thrilled to have him here. So I'd like to welcome onto the podcast from The Daily Beast political reporter will summer. Thanks for joining us. And first of all, what is your brightspot

Will Sommer (00:03:37.000)

Oh man, my brightspot is I've gotten sucked into this Netflix show. I think it's called perfect match. It's kind of like Super Smash Brothers for Netflix dating shows they bring on all the villains and they have to date one another. And it's it's kind of like road rules real world challenge, I guess. Okay, now you're talking. It's truly twisted. Like a friend of mine told me about this. And I was like, you simpleton. I don't have time for this garbage. And I guess I'll put it on for 10 minutes and now it's you know, five episodes in and they I mean, it's it's truly bizarre. And I feel very guilty that I recognize each of these characters you know, from

Dan (00:04:11.000)

from I have to be honest. I want to end this episode right now. And watch this didn't know this exists? Yeah, no,

Jordan (00:04:17.000)

I mean, do they do they? If you're describing, like the real world world rules challenge something I still cannot say without difficulty. There are competitions, then they have to both date each other and like, run up a hill fast, or we're talking

Will Sommer (00:04:33.000)

my old competitions. I mean, the ultimate competition is finding love really. And, you know, they they have these moments where they keep adding people to the house from you know, it's like, oh, it's it's parties from Love is blind. And so then there's kind of musical chairs where people have to pair up by the end of the night or get banished from the house. And so there's a lot of like, it gets very intense. Like, you know, it's like the three people who aren't picture sitting on the couch and they're like, Well, I guess I find you Lee least objectionable you know, would you like to come to my room and it really is. It's kind of like a Hunger Games feel to

Jordan (00:05:05.000)

it. Right So it combines the misery of being unpopular in high school with the misery of being the last chosen to be on your dodgeball team in junior high.

Will Sommer (00:05:15.000)

Exactly, exactly. And of course you know, Nicholas che is hosting so of

Jordan (00:05:22.000)

course, Nicolas, Nicolas che is hosting

Dan (00:05:26.000)

former husband of Jessica Simpson,

Jordan (00:05:30.000)

writer of the greatest Disney song, the one that plays over the end credits of move on

Dan (00:05:35.000)

Do you remember that video that 98 degrees have for those that song this I promise you? It was like a really romantic song. And the video was like really sincerely romantic and then I think at the end, it's revealed that the dude is like is screech I think screech

Jordan (00:05:52.000)

cameo diamond Dustin Dustin Diamond, wrestler

Dan (00:05:58.000)

diamond destined to DDP if I were negotiating, I would have vetoed I'm looking at this because I didn't I've never heard of this this show. And it sounds fantastic. I'm looking at this and I'm seeing like just a list of shows that these people are from that I have never heard of. I don't think I would recognize any of these people.

Will Sommer (00:06:24.000)

Well, it's you know, they have kind of some of the more famous ones so like love is blind or the circle. And then they have sexy beast which I don't know if you guys remember this. This is where people were they gangster movie and early. It's an homage to to Ben Kingsley.

Jordan (00:06:40.000)

I want to say that was Ben Kingsley's gangster movie in the early aughts,

Dan (00:06:44.000)

Ben Kingsley.

Jordan (00:06:48.000)

Nicholas che, I want Kings I would serve Ben Kingsley

Will Sommer (00:06:52.000)

leaves a contest. So in the show they, they dress up in basically fursuits. So it's like you're dressed up as a dolphin and you go on a date. The I mean, they really run the gamut. It's it they really kind of scrape the bottom of the barrel from the for some of the lesser known shows.

Dan (00:07:07.000)

Hmm. Nice. I think I hope it gets another series another season and they dig into like some of the older dating shows like, yeah, like, shipmates, yeah. Yeah, mates?

Jordan (00:07:23.000)

Wasn't that's another Chris Hardwick. Yeah, yeah, I think I said Chris Hardwick earlier today. And you Yeah,

Dan (00:07:29.000)

they made people who would not get along. Go on a date on the ship. Right, but couldn't leave.

Jordan (00:07:35.000)

Wow. What was the one that was the other one that Hardwick hosted with Jennifer was singled out McCarthy. Yeah. Yeah. singled out. I remember that one. Because that was V

Dan (00:07:47.000)

one. Yeah. Yeah, that was that was less a dating show and more like a weird spectacle. Yeah. Whereas, shipmates, there was one episode where a guy who thought he was Chuck Norris went on a date with a lady on a boat, okay hated each other so much that he threw her off a pier

Jordan (00:08:08.000)

is terrible. So that is the ultimate Chuck Norris joke.

Dan (00:08:12.000)

And then there was another one where a guy hated the lady. He was on a date with so much that he spent most of his time drinking, calling her a psycho. And then just being like, Well, that wasn't going good. So I just went back to the casino.

Jordan (00:08:25.000)

Ah, that's, that's a man who knows what he's doing

Will Sommer (00:08:28.000)

such a good show like that anymore.

Jordan (00:08:32.000)

After after discussing reality TV for quite some time, I think now is the ironic time to reveal you have written a book?

Will Sommer (00:08:40.000)

Yes. Yes. It's called trust the plan, the rise of Q anon and the conspiracy that unhinged America. And you know, it's sort of the culmination of five years of reporting on Q Anon, for me and I kind of, you know, travel across America exploring how he went on and conspiracy theories in general have just, you know, kind of wreaked havoc in all sorts of different ways.

Dan (00:09:02.000)

So you said you traveled across America and I'm imagining you in like an RV going around finding finding anybody with how choose

Jordan (00:09:14.000)

I also imagine you dress like Guy Fianna in the same

Dan (00:09:18.000)

sunglasses on Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Choose people that you would talk to or profile

Jordan (00:09:27.000)

Yeah, very good question.

Will Sommer (00:09:28.000)

Well, I do love the idea that you know, you see these Q anon bumper stickers and kind of Hong Kong like polo over

Dan (00:09:38.000)

cars smoking to help you. How did you get these beliefs? put a microphone in their face, Sir,

Jordan (00:09:46.000)

could you please show me your ID and tell me why you believe in Q anon.

Will Sommer (00:09:49.000)

I mean, it was so many just just people I encountered in my in my reporting of The Daily Beast who were just, I felt like they were just so fascinating that I had to write a book and so it was um you know people like Vincent Fusco, the guy who masquerades as JFK Jr. and you know goes to these things and everyone says oh my god is JFK Jr. and he drove me crazy because I thought this guy knows he's not JFK Jr. You know, he's constantly dodging me and saying like, well maybe I'll talk about that later and then you know dodging my messages. And then you know, kind of getting heated whenever there will be a rival impersonator and say, like, you've seen this guy.

Jordan (00:10:25.000)

And so

Will Sommer (00:10:28.000)

or, or Austin Steinbach, this kind of Q is I think Q impersonator as though we all know Q is a real guy whose memory shouldn't be tarnished. But, you know, he he kind of set up a compound out in the desert in Arizona, and this woman called me and said, My sister has been sucked into Austin signboards orbit, can you get her out and so I traveled out there and kind of hung out with the his crew, and the FBI got involved, and I had a bunch of guns, and it's very, there's a lot packed into the book. And, you know, I, I'm glad I'm on knowledge, because you guys know, the mix. You guys know that the mix of kind of, like tragedy and comedy that goes into these conspiracy theories in these movements, is really a sort of a rich thing to cover.

Dan (00:11:11.000)

Yeah, there's, there's a certain reality that, you know, it's hard not to appreciate but at the same time, the pathos,

Jordan (00:11:18.000)

ya know, when you when you go through the the personal stories, a lot of the testimonials a lot of the histories that people have with their families and all these things, I think you do a really good job of both recognizing and and like, putting forward that, yes, these are ridiculous theories, while at the same time presenting a very good recognition that these people are also victims of Q anon and, and that kind of situation. So a lot of your paragraphs do have a bit of knowledge fight to them insofar as it's like, look at this sad thing. And here's why it's funny. And this is a sad thing. And here's, you know, and it's, it's fascinating. You have to go back and forth. Because, you know,

Will Sommer (00:12:00.000)

it is so ridiculous on its face I face. I mean, a guy who read it recently was saying, you know, reminded him of Terry Pratchett, just how off the wall it is. And then then you have to say, well, you know, this is sad, this person gonna lose their house, or they alienated everyone close to them, but at the same time, you have to say, but it is also really crazy. Yeah, you just can't

Jordan (00:12:18.000)

make this stuff up. That guy's not actually JFK, Jr. I don't know why I've ever needed to say that before in my life, but I do today.

Dan (00:12:25.000)

Yeah, there's, there's a tough balance of like, trying to be, like, entirely hostile to the ideas and the people who maybe profit off the ideas to the expense at the expense of other people, while expressing empathy for the people who are taken for that ride. Yeah. And that's,

Jordan (00:12:46.000)

yeah. And well, can I can I ask you, because I think the book does, does a fairly good job, or does a good job of making it clear. But I think I would like to hear from you like, there is a through line through so many of these personal stories, right, of of a loss of some sort? Like, could you talk a little bit about how many or how similar a lot of these stories are?

Will Sommer (00:13:09.000)

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of times when someone gets into Q Anon, or another conspiracy theory in a really hardcore enough way that I end up writing about them, you can kind of there's often sort of a key that unlocks it and you can, you can sort of see the path and often they identify it, they'll say, Well, this thing happened to me, and that's why Q anon appealed to me. You know, for example, one guy who ended up in the Austin Steinberg group, he had this kind of crazy disease, I think he had cancer, and ended up on disability and or couldn't get his disability approved, he couldn't work. So he's kind of angry at the world and the government, and then he discovers Q anon and says, Well, wait, you know, no wonder this world is so screwed up. It's because of this Cabal, or, you know, someone like I read about a woman who got into Q anon during the pandemic and she was sort of cut up cut off from everyone and you know, she was sort of shut in. And then as a result, you know, she was an easy mark for Q anon So, often there is kind of this or there's sort of an eccentricity this person is into really deep into bitcoin they have all these kind of internet enthusiasms and then some then q&a comes in and they you know, again really go off the deep end for that.

Dan (00:14:13.000)

Well, so many things like that, like they they they are launching points so perfectly because Kuhn on, and much like a lot of other conspiracies can metastasize to to accommodate things like if you're super into bitcoin that's like Well, let me tell you about NASA. Yeah, you know, or the the financial system conspiracies are.

Will Sommer (00:14:37.000)

It's so good to be I feel like I'm amongst my people, someone who just casually drops NESARA

Jordan (00:14:44.000)

Harry grosses and bring in NASA to you. I'll tell you that right now. Yeah. I just saw your budget guys. laughs I'm really sorry.

Dan (00:14:53.000)

Oh, that's that's what I find. So, like, it's, it's so I don't even know what the right word is. But it's it's malleable. Yeah, accommodating. Yeah, of what is plaguing people, that it's, that's an interesting aspect of its danger.

Will Sommer (00:15:11.000)

And I mean, that's kind of the genius of Q anon. And so many of these other kinds of conspiracy theories we have going now is that they're really big tent movements. And in the case of q&a, the clues are so vague, that you can kind of make it about whatever you want, you can say, you know, well, this, this was predicting the pandemic, or, you know, this was predicting the Chinese balloons, really whatever you want, from people I talked to, and in particular with Q anon and the, the NASA aspect that's been built into it, you know, they have this kind of utopian vision for after the storm after Donald Trump kind of seizes power and, you know, imposes a fascist America, obviously, they don't see it that way. But that, you know, debts will be abolished, or if you rent a house, you'll own it. And so, you know, if you're just kept or, you know, if you have a ton of credit card debt, and you're you can't realize you'll never be able to afford a house. There's like a very personal appeal to that.

Dan (00:16:00.000)

Or if you want to just declare yourself the Queen of Canada. Yeah.

Will Sommer (00:16:05.000)

That's a course that yeah, the cute on Queen of Canada, HRH Romana Dulo you know, the, you know, there is that sense of, you know, if you're kind of alienated from the system, and you just say, You know what, I'm gonna stop paying my utility bills. This is not a legitimate government. I you know, I swear allegiance to the Queen.

Jordan (00:16:23.000)

Sure. Yeah.

Dan (00:16:25.000)

I mean, but to be fair, Canada does. You know, they still have some respect for the Queen of England. Well, no, they do. They do swear allegiance to the Queen. Yeah, they put themselves in a position for another usurper. Hey, come along and declare themselves the rightful

Jordan (00:16:39.000)

if you still have a king or queen. That means that I could eventually become your king or queen. I think that's the rule if I kill your

Dan (00:16:45.000)

honor system, yeah. Fragile that. Yeah,

Jordan (00:16:48.000)

that's the way it is. Yeah. Well, I wanted to ask you, what do you feel like because there's, there's a lot of, as we've talked about, with Q Anon, you know, there's a lot of malleability. There's a lot of ability for it to absorb things that seem unrelated into Q anon. What is it that makes the Q anon thing different from so many of these other conspiracy theories?

Will Sommer (00:17:12.000)

Sure. I mean, I think it's a couple of things. I think the the clues aspect, the idea of this guy named Q, who's kind of dropping all these, these, what they call breadcrumbs game aspect of it, exactly. And so you can, you know, you're part of this broader movement, and everyone is in discords, kind of baking together, as they say, and kind of figuring it all out. That you know, and there's also this aspect of, you know, the point is you're trying to eat and evangelize, and you're trying to kind of spread the word and the, what they call the Great Awakening, so that when, you know, Tom Hanks is cuffed for drinking children's blood, that there won't be a civil war, you know, that you're trying to spread the word amongst all your neighbors. So it's more active, and there's more of this kind of, climactic moment in the storm, then, you know, if you're just getting into, let's say, JFK assassinations, and you say, Okay, I spent 10 years on this, and I think I figured it out. But, you know, kinda doesn't go anywhere from there. But whereas there's kind of like, you know, you're gonna take on the boss level,

Dan (00:18:10.000)

there isn't like an idyllic utopianism after the fact with with something like a JFK,

Will Sommer (00:18:17.000)

right? Exactly. I mean, all these sort of conspiracy theories people can get into whereas Q anon is you know, it's a fun game and it's a community and someday and they're imagining you know, we'll all live in paradise together and the people who who helped bring it about will be you know, highly favored,

Dan (00:18:34.000)

you know what I'm thinking about right now when you're saying that you know, the sympathy like the idyllic state afterwards and they call it the storm right? I don't understand why the band Nelson hasn't tried to like really make a comeback because after the rain would be a perfect q1 on song well, little

Jordan (00:18:54.000)

dragon did an after the rain as well, so you can't get those mixed up.

Dan (00:18:59.000)

But it's not nearly like rockin is now two are very it's a different song completely. I agree. is one of the Nelson brothers dead is that maybe why I got bad news.

Will Sommer (00:19:11.000)

Nelson with the guys with the long blonde hair. Is

Dan (00:19:13.000)

that right? Oh, yeah, um, I think

Will Sommer (00:19:18.000)

you know, I think you make an interesting point. I mean, there's a lot of kind of like homegrown q&a on music. And you know, whether it be you know, I talked to a coupon promoter who got into it because he was like the q&a DJ like he would do that the electronica whereas you have plenty of acoustic guitar guys and all that. But, but

Jordan (00:19:37.000)

they're gonna embarrass you and on that was my number one reason to join Q anon is no more guitar guys. Yeah, no more of this. I'm gonna play Wonderwall shit now I got now it's everywhere.

Dan (00:19:49.000)

I do like the idea though, of like the q&a DJ, and there's all these like, Boomer moms and aunts and uncles. And it just a guy.

Jordan (00:19:58.000)

You know, it's crazy. The only song that transcends all boundaries even Q anon Hey ya. Hey, ya, still kills still kills a q&a?

Will Sommer (00:20:08.000)

You hear that? Come on and it just takes you back to 2003.

Dan (00:20:15.000)

Right? Make a Song parody out of this can't do it? No, you cannot do it like a Polaroid picture of Tom Hanks drinking blood.

Jordan (00:20:27.000)

You gotta get the meter right, yeah. So Well, the one thing that I keep coming back to whenever I was going through the book is I want to

Dan (00:20:37.000)

tell you, Well, Jordan has multiple pages in front of them.

Jordan (00:20:43.000)

But something that really stuck out to me, we all know social media is is involved with this. We all know that they bear some responsibility for it, I think you do a great job of outlining all of the different connections of where people find this place. Because for a lot of us, we think, Oh, they must be going to YouTube, they must be going to stuff like that, but it's really a lot just Facebook, isn't it?

Will Sommer (00:21:09.000)

Oh, it's so much of it is just I mean, the sort of the queue clues are posted, you know, on on like eight Kuhn. So it's sort of the sewers of the internet. But the reality is that, you know, most queue and unbelievers have never interacted with those sites and bothered to you know, kind of, sort through all the the anime and the porn and the anime. So they, they, they end up on stuff like Facebook or YouTube and in sometimes, you know, a lot of times, even it isn't like, alright, you know, that Facebook group isn't called like, number one Q anon fans, you know, it's called, you know, disturbed about the corruption, you know, in o. R, are inducted into it in these ways that, you know, I compare it to Scientology where you have to be in it for a while before they tell you about Xenu and the aliens and all this stuff. We're for, you know, when you talk to a Cuban unbeliever, they'll usually say, Well, you know, I just don't like the corruption or, you know, I'm concerned about some government transparency issues. And then you say, well, kind of what what do you mean about that? And they'll they'll say, Well, I mean, the transparency about how they, you know, drink children's blood.

Jordan (00:22:11.000)

Right, right. That is, I mean, it would be nice if they were more transparent about that. But I can understand why you don't want to share that with too many people. You know, it's not something that you want on your voting record, like, Oh, I'm pro drinking children's blood, I get it.

Dan (00:22:26.000)

I think I'm sorry, I was absent for a second. Making sure that the Nelson twins are still alive. They are. And guys, if you're listening, Matthew, Gunner, Co Op Q and

Will Sommer (00:22:41.000)

I have a business opportunity for you got to just change

Dan (00:22:45.000)

the lyrics to after the storm. It's perfect. It's right there. Anyway, sorry. Yeah.

Jordan (00:22:52.000)

No, but you you. I mean, there's one thing that I keep coming that like sticks in my craw, though is that you keep calling it Facebook's algorithm. And to me, that kind of drives me a little bit insane, because it's not Facebook doesn't have an algorithm. It's an algorithm made by people. You know, so for a lot of that, I feel like I get stuck in the weeds of of why isn't why are we calling it Facebook's algorithm? Is it because corporations are people?

Will Sommer (00:23:23.000)

You know, that's a great point. The the idea that, you know, I do think sometimes it gets chalked up to Oh, it's just that dang computer, you know, Oh,

Jordan (00:23:31.000)

yeah. No, but yes, person's face behind that algorithm ruining our lives? Yeah.

Will Sommer (00:23:37.000)

That's a good point. I mean, the you know, I think the value of the talk about this in the book is these these Facebook leaks showed that Facebook knew that the way that they had set up the website, you know, if you just liked Ben Shapiro or Tucker Carlson's Facebook pages, then suddenly it would say, Well, you know, then you'll really like, you know, cue cabal slayers this group. So, you know, it is the, you know, for a while these group these websites were afraid to oh, well, we don't want to put a finger on the scale and banned conservative groups. But I think it's more recent, you know, it's not a huge ask to say, Well, can you not actively recruit for Q anon by pushing people towards these these groups?

Jordan (00:24:16.000)

Yeah, I mean, that's a good that's a good point. Why aren't we regulating the algorithm? Why are we always constantly talking about oh, free speech or anything along those lines, and not an ignoring that this is being driven by something?

Will Sommer (00:24:29.000)

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it really isn't that, you know, with so many people, they say, you know, I would just load up YouTube and you know, I click around a couple of things and then suddenly, it's it's pushing me into into, like, hearing about Wayfair trafficking children stuff like that.

Jordan (00:24:43.000)

Right. Right. Right. Brutal.

Dan (00:24:49.000)

Still not got to the bottom.

Jordan (00:24:50.000)

I don't know. You never know. someday, someday we may.

Dan (00:24:56.000)

I don't know. I don't know if I talked about this, but when And that happened the Wayfair conspiracy. It was right after I had ordered a couch from Wayfair Oh, yeah. And it hadn't been delivered yet. Right when everything broke down, right felt really uncomfortable.

Will Sommer (00:25:12.000)

You thought No wonder this was $25,000

Dan (00:25:17.000)

I thought I was gonna get getting some hot water. I thought it was gonna get investigated by all the little bakers out there.

Will Sommer (00:25:25.000)

I mean, that really is all it takes, you know, like, I mean, if there were, you know, somehow you add a picture of a wave farebox in the background. They'd say, look at this sicko, you know, I mean, I said once that I go to Comet Ping Pong, and then ever since then they have, they kind of made a little meme of, you know, look at this sicko, and

Dan (00:25:43.000)

what I was seeing somebody, woman who lives in lives that is still in DC, and I came to visit and we went Comet Ping Pong almost just as well, to try and date ate some kind of a outrage or something. And it turns out the pizza was fantastic.

Will Sommer (00:26:01.000)

Oh, no, it's great. I mean, I talked about this in the book i When do I, you know, I got I went to come with ping pong before pizza gate happened. And, you know, one night, I was just seeing all my conservatives that I followed tweeting about common ping pong, and I thought these guys aren't so bad. You know, we got similar types. Maybe we have some common ground. And then then I thought, wait a minute. And and obviously, they had much more of a level and intention.

Dan (00:26:28.000)

Yeah, I was pretty surprised by like, I just expected kinda like, ma'am, to decent pizza. Pretty good.

Will Sommer (00:26:36.000)

They got some dipping sauces. I mean, it's

Dan (00:26:39.000)

I do understand kind of why you'd get freaked out by the bathrooms though. The door does not make sense. Yeah,

Will Sommer (00:26:46.000)

I have. I have been there. And I've been you know, I asked the waiter, where's the bathroom? And then you kind of get there. It's like, Am I an idiot? I can't figure this out. You know, it's just, you know, the sliding door situation.

Dan (00:26:57.000)

Um, did you ever see Jack Pacific's video of him going to comment? Ping pong? Did you know Yeah, I

Will Sommer (00:27:03.000)

mean, that's really what what set me off on it in large part was was this idea that, you know, I'm gonna go in and investigate Comet Ping Pong. And I thought, well, you know, it's just, it's just a restaurant. And of course, now he's, you know, he was at the forefront of that. And now, him and these guys like Mike Cernovich will say, Oh, it's so unfair. Everyone brings up pizza gate when it comes to me. You think? Well, yeah, it's kind of your claim to fame.

Dan (00:27:25.000)

Yeah, you before anyone knew who you were, you were almost crying out of fear. Because you didn't get your garlic knots. It

Jordan (00:27:33.000)

would be a little bit like if Milli Vanilli were like all people remember, as far as that time we were doing the lip syncing thing. Yeah, man. Yeah, that's what it is. You got it. Okay. Oh, yeah, I

Will Sommer (00:27:49.000)

was just gonna say I mean, yeah, more, you know, just covering this beat in general all have conservatives call me up and these personalities and say, oh, you know, everyone holds all these awful things I've said against me, that I've said against me, you know, and this has ruined my life. And I think, you know, you can be sympathetic on some small way. But at the same time, you know, that's why people tend not to try to whip up hatred against minority groups, because it's not a nice thing to do. And then suddenly, you know, they kind of want it to all just go back to normal.

Dan (00:28:17.000)

So you said that you got some flack for, you know, saying you like, ping pong. Have there been other things that you've done that have gotten Q anon to like? Wills one of them because I remember there was like, something a while back with like, people who wore red shoes or something like that has? Have you ever run afoul of anything nonsensical like that, that's kind of fun.

Will Sommer (00:28:43.000)

I have to live live my life in some bizarre ways to avoid doing exactly that. I mean, yeah, I mean, as you said, the Red Shoe thing, you know, they they are convinced that anyone who wears red shoes is a you know, you're signaling you know, it's like your your blood drenched shoes. And so they'll get pictures of like Bill Maher and red sneakers and they're like, Look at this guy. You know, symbolism will be his downfall. You know, in this case, you know, I tried to avoid pizza at all cost certainly being photographed with it. This friend of mine, we were at a sort of a summer share house, and he brought a big and famous inflatable pizza slice and I said do not get that anywhere near Instagram. You know that picture of me? That is not happening. Because they're just gonna say, you know, flaunting it. He's throwing it in our faces.

Jordan (00:29:29.000)

Oh, man, your friends do not even know the amount of life threatening bullshit they just put you in whatever they have inflatable pizza nearby. Get that away from me. Yeah, are you kidding me?

Will Sommer (00:29:41.000)

Are you trying to get me killed?

Dan (00:29:43.000)

It's so weird that like that could just be in in like more normal circumstances. That could be a fun way for you to troll you know, or something. But there is a legitimate I guess concern of like, yeah, your life could be threatened. I'm gonna end up doxxed I'm gonna end up on the wrong side of somebody showing up at my house. Yeah.

Will Sommer (00:30:03.000)

Well, I mean, and you know, really, you just have to, you know, I mean, it's the sad reality is, you know, especially with so many guns in America, it you know, it only takes one person to, you know, as we've seen with other Q anon murders, you know, it only takes one one wacko to, you know, make things really serious,

Dan (00:30:19.000)

huh? Yeah. And that's, that's kind of tragic, because it's a perfect opportunity to do some funny trolling. But the the stakes of it are, you know, you'd live in a place where it's like, wow, is it worth it? Yeah, not.

Jordan (00:30:33.000)

Yeah. I mean, you don't the two of you, but I'm willing to die for a shitty joke. I'll go for it. That's true. I live my life that way.

Dan (00:30:40.000)

Yeah. Jordan is gonna get a big pizza slice.

Jordan (00:30:47.000)

You don't even know how much I drink children's blood. I drink all of it.

Dan (00:30:52.000)

I'm gonna join the band Nelson.

Jordan (00:30:56.000)

That is my backup plan. If this whole podcasting thing falls, it falls through? Well, I did want to there's there is a part of the book where you talk about a few examples of people who have left? Could you talk a little bit more about that? Because a lot of in the book, it is kind of like, there is just some people realize that they're being lied to? Yeah,

Will Sommer (00:31:19.000)

I mean, it is. So it's so sort of personal for each person. And you know, this comes up, because people will email me and say, you know, how do I get my spouse or my, my son or my relative? How do I get them out of Q anon. And, you know, it's a heartbreaking question, because number one, you know, there should be a better system than email would be. And, you know, also, there's not really an easy answer. But from the people who have gotten out of it, it's usually some very specific thing. I mean, there was a guy, one of the, you know, what they call the Q proofs, which are supposed to be how, how will you prove Q anon is real? So, for example, there was one that they don't call cubes, cubes, right? Come on, is that, you know, I like this, you know, I think you're giving them too many good ideas. Between that and the Nelson stuff. The the idea that any conspiracy theory for free, that's one

Dan (00:32:12.000)

of the Alex Jones if he wasn't in a much better

Jordan (00:32:20.000)

place, we just do so much punch up on terrible conspiracies. Yeah. We'd be so good at evil. Ooh, you're

Will Sommer (00:32:27.000)

watching the broadcast. And you're just like, alright, this guy's got no charisma. He's no.

Jordan (00:32:33.000)

Fire of get anyone.

Will Sommer (00:32:35.000)

But yeah, I mean, in terms, so for example, so one of them was that they interpreted that you had said, Trump will say, tippy top at the Easter Egg Roll. And so then he said that and and they said, they Oh, my God, you know, queues real? Well, you know, you can go back years, and Trump is constantly saying, tippy top. I mean, it's like sim saying, you know, huge are telling a story about someone calling him sir. But you know, when they package this in this way, it's very compelling. Well, there's XQ. And on guy, he sees a video debunking this, and suddenly, that just kind of flipped the gears in his head, and he goes, Wait a minute, if that's fake, what else is fake, and then it kind of sends him down the a more positive rabbit hole out of it. But really, for all these people, it's very individual. And, you know, the the advice is to maintain the relationship with someone until they hit that moment. But, you know, that's easier said than done. Do you?

Dan (00:33:25.000)

Do you think that there is anything that sort of has like connective tissue between people who make that, like, find that moment? Like, is there some commonality like it's

Jordan (00:33:41.000)

yeah, if there's so much in common about how people start in Q Anon, is there a similar thru line and how people leave Q anon?

Dan (00:33:48.000)

Yeah.

Will Sommer (00:33:50.000)

You know, from the people I talked to, it's always someone who didn't really like being in Q anon. And they sort of felt it was their duty. Like, I talked to this one woman who said, you know, it was just sort of a horrible fact that I had to acknowledge that this was the fate of the world, but I really wasn't happy about it. Whereas a lot of these queueing on people seem to just find, say, oh, yeah, you know, I'm a digital soldier. Now, you know, we're, we're these crusaders for God. And we're, Oh, I hate these democrats so much anyway. And it turns out, they're all these sickos. Whereas in the case of people who leave often, they almost they they spend a lot of time trying to debunk Q anon. Because they want to, they want to believe that it isn't real, even though they're convinced for a while that it is and right there, they try to get in it by their own need to disprove it. They believe it. Exactly, exactly. And then they spend all this time saying, you know, oh, this this awful thing. This has to be fake, right. And for a while, they just can't disprove it. And then when they do they feel this real sense of relief.

Dan (00:34:47.000)

That makes sense. Yeah. And it is also a bummer. It's a super

Jordan (00:34:51.000)

huge bummer. But it does speak to something that you kind of talked about at the end of the book and even we've touched on here with how people get out of it. And how people get into it is, where else were they supposed to go? These are people who were fucked over. Right? And reasonably, they believe they were fucked over because a lot of them work. You know, you live in America, if you're, you're always one fucking hospital bill away from bankruptcy. And then then they are given this idea that, okay, it's the government's fault. But nobody's intervening to help them in any direction.

Will Sommer (00:35:32.000)

Oh, absolutely. And you're, you're hitting on something, which is the the role that like really serious medical issues, or medical debt plays, I think in driving so many people into Q anon or other sort of fringe beliefs, because as you said, I mean, these are people who, you know, are raised with this belief that, you know, this is not just this is incredibly cutthroat country. And if you get one wrong, turn, your life is going to be ruined. And then they find that that is the case, it's not an unreasonable belief, you know, well, right, right, right, no, and then suddenly, they they hit this kind of skid, and then often, through no fault of their own, or, you know, they have a drug issue or a mental illness issue. And then suddenly, they find themselves abandoned, with the exception of the Q anon community, which is more than happy to welcome them and say, you know, this is not just the abysmal state of life, and you're just gonna have to deal with it. But they say, well, actually, there are these specific people to blame. And the good news is that let's say you have cancer, and you can't, you don't have insurance to get treatment. The good news is that pretty soon Trump is going to defeat the Cabal, and we'll get a cured and you know, everything's gonna be great.

Dan (00:36:38.000)

After the rain, we will have med bed. That's true.

Will Sommer (00:36:41.000)

Exactly. Oh, of course. Yes. Med beds would be are a great example here.

Jordan (00:36:45.000)

Right. I mean, but again, who else is giving them anything? Who is giving them any hope? Beyond Q anon?

Will Sommer (00:36:52.000)

I mean, seemingly not really. Anybody mean, you know, perhaps it perhaps churches, I mean, there's, there's a huge overlap here between, you know, some very, like kind of charismatic evangelical movements, and to maybe go into

Jordan (00:37:05.000)

churches isn't the worst.

Will Sommer (00:37:07.000)

Right, right. There's no, you know, these are people who are who are falling through the cracks, like, you know, and pretty reasonably so because they're just finding themselves that there's no, there's no social safety net to catch them.

Jordan (00:37:19.000)

Yeah, I mean, the I keep coming back to the to so many parts of this book, make me feel like these people never had a chance. It is not I mean, there's so much of this book to me that I read through. And the pathos I have is towards all of these people who are are swept up in this, that they had no, no control over.

Will Sommer (00:37:44.000)

Oh, yeah. I mean, so many people in it, who either, you know, just just face huge amounts of debt, or, you know, have some mental illness that, ideally would be treated. And instead, they're kind of just shunted off to live with their parents until they, you know, in the case of one guy allegedly murder, a mafia boss, or you know, all these different things that are kind of just, they just sort of spin out into the world.

Dan (00:38:07.000)

But how much of that is infantilizing people? You know, I wonder, I mean, you didn't read the book. Yet? How much how much of it like saying that people don't have a choice or don't have a chance it like people circumstances, greatly can influence them and make them in a place where it makes more sense for them to go down these roads. But offering somebody false hope, doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have a choice of like, accepting that maybe situations are

Jordan (00:38:41.000)

bleak, right? Okay. So then, so then your choice is between false hope and just accepting that there's nothing you can do about the miseries of the world.

Dan (00:38:50.000)

Oh, not maybe not nothing. But there is no magical Silver Bullet the solution,

Jordan (00:38:59.000)

right? I'm just, I'm just adding in this, this, when this is happening, when these people are fucked over. And then they go to Q Anon, when they're fucked over is the point of intervention. That That makes sense. Yeah. You know, we're fighting the symptom of us not intervening towards anybody doing any good.

Will Sommer (00:39:20.000)

Sure. You know, I think that's, I mean, that's a great point. Obviously, a lot of people face heart issues in their lives and and do not become human unbelievers fortunately, or in particular, do not sort of act out in the ways of the most extreme q&a unbelievers. But, you know, at the same time, I do think it's certainly valuable to understand, you know, what draws people to it. And I think the point of intervention, that's a good way to put it.

Jordan (00:39:45.000)

Yeah. I mean, because we obviously know, beyond a shadow of any reasonable doubt any human being could have that arguing with these people is not the way to go.

Will Sommer (00:39:58.000)

Yeah, that is certain. be the case. I mean, you know, the doctor, people in the book who, you know, said, okay, you know, I'm going to gear up and I'm going to become the ultimate Q anon debunker. And I'm going to sit my kid down and run him through it, and then we'll just leave this cute thing in the past. But, you know, it's, you know, what's it? I was talking to someone who said, Well, you know, just show him the FBI statistics about human trafficking. It's not as widespread as people think. And then they'll say, Well, let me tell you about the FBI. You know, I mean, they're, you know, and, you know, you can go on and on, whereas people, you know, at the same time, they'll see some guy with a rumble channel is the most honest person out there.

Dan (00:40:34.000)

Well, I mean, he's not beholden to the MSM. Right, no,

Jordan (00:40:38.000)

right. But I mean, you know, that seems to me, then, based upon what we're saying is like, the best way to stop Q anon is single payer, you know, like, it is it is a situation where we're describing the byproduct of our inability as a society to function.

Will Sommer (00:40:59.000)

Yeah, I mean, as you said, I mean, that that sort of ends up being my conclusion as sort of ineffective as that is, it's sort of just to say, Well, sure, wish America was nicer to people. Hopefully, that'll happen, but probably not. Right. Yeah.

Dan (00:41:13.000)

But isn't that like it? I think that's so true of a lot of the kind of more nefarious ends of conspiracy, you know, like, Q anon or otherwise is, is the ultimate solutions to them have nothing to do really with the conspiracy? itself? Yeah, there's a more grounded problem that's been fictionally solved by the conspiracy theory. Yeah,

Jordan (00:41:39.000)

I've, I've, I've thought of one solution. Oh, I thought of a solution.

Dan (00:41:47.000)

Nobody's gonna like it. But I bet I bet I'm

Jordan (00:41:49.000)

not. So here's what I feel like people are doing wrong. By debunking and fact checking, you are not giving these people what they want, which is learning. And I think what we should do is teach them about a real conspiracy theory, and what it takes to prove it, and give them an idea of what the burden of proof actually is for a conspiracy theory. I think personally, it doesn't sound fun. I think personally, we should spend all of our time telling people about how bush and Blair and people conspired to lie us into a war in Iraq. That's a real conspiracy. Do you know what I'm saying? So if we taught people how to prove that happened, then we would also give them an idea of how to prove when conspiracies didn't happen.

Dan (00:42:46.000)

I think that's gonna go off track, and you're just gonna end up with them being like, wow, Tony Blair, there's a person I didn't realize also drinks blood.

Will Sommer (00:42:53.000)

Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. I mean, I'm adding them to the

Jordan (00:42:56.000)

list. While while I respect that as a as a response, you know, we've tried to arguing, right, the only thing we haven't tried is teaching

Dan (00:43:04.000)

people will see Jordan, here's my problem. I think that we're really, really good at coming up with advice for the nefarious actors. I'm not sure we have the best solutions for the other side.

Jordan (00:43:18.000)

No, nobody's tried it before. I would like to see how it works. Because I do want to brainstorm Yeah, no, I would be surprised. I mean, because it's the thing that we all ignore. Like, it's the biggest conspiracy theory that none of us ever talk about. It's never brought up in the media. Now, it's rarely ever discussed. But the past 20 years of our life have been dominated by a small conspiracy of people who lied us into Iraq.

Will Sommer (00:43:45.000)

You know, I think you make a good point here, which is that, you know, so many of these, obviously, these conspiracy theories, like Q Anon, or you guys often get into the background of what is sort of the kernel of truth at the heart of these things, but the they are driven? I mean, you know, I don't want to say, you know, oh, no, the government's always nice to everyone, you know, how could you possibly think that or that, you know, there aren't conspiracies, or there aren't, like really weird, disturbing things in the news. And obviously, these then kind of become the seeds that that grow into into the pathways for people to get into these conspiracy theories.

Jordan (00:44:17.000)

Right. So my question then is, if people were held accountable for the real conspiracies, would these fake ones be able to prosper as well?

Dan (00:44:29.000)

Now you're talking about an overhaul of the implementation of international law, which might be difficult, just a regular ones. But let's let me ask you this, then. Yeah. What you're saying this as a possible solution, and it's kind of abstract. Give me a concrete example, outside of taking bush and Blair to The Hague. How would you do that? How would you educate people about this? Like, what does that look like in practice?

Jordan (00:44:59.000)

I mean, I suppose I would talk about not like the results, like if we wound up in a war, I would talk about proving the conspiracy happen?

Dan (00:45:08.000)

Do you mean individually or as like a as a

Jordan (00:45:11.000)

whole product? Like start from the beginning? No, no, but I mean, like talking to

Dan (00:45:15.000)

a person who believes and you have to talk to them. So you're saying this is what you would do to talk to somebody, as opposed to like, you would do a show where you prove this conspiracy?

Jordan (00:45:26.000)

No, I wouldn't do that. Okay, that's not that's not useful for individuals is an individual thing. Okay. You can't do that, like us doing that. I mean, the dollop did a show about all of that stuff. It doesn't mean anything. You have to talk to them individually, because they have to know and trust you.

Dan (00:45:41.000)

Okay. So now to D radicalize people from Q Anon, you must ready yourself to prove exhaustively a conspiracy theory.

Jordan (00:45:51.000)

Yes, absolutely. And here's why. All right. We all know that's true. And did we try and overthrow the government? No, no, we did not.

Will Sommer (00:46:05.000)

Well, it's an unorthodox idea.

Jordan (00:46:08.000)

Your your many other ideas failed, so why not try the unorthodox one?

Dan (00:46:13.000)

Okay. So maybe it could work sometimes. Okay. But in order for this to be tried, you are now requiring everybody to to give this a shot?

Jordan (00:46:26.000)

Yes. And here's why. I think everybody should really stop and think about how bush and Blair light us into a

Dan (00:46:35.000)

war. Ultimately, our motives here and your suggestion, but that's not

Jordan (00:46:39.000)

the that doesn't change anything. What I keep that what I keep thinking about is that these people want something. And from one side, they are getting a false version of what they want. And from the other side, they're told that there's no way to get what they want. Hmm. So what is their choice, then? It is, it's one, it doesn't even really matter, does it? I mean, beyond hurting other people, of course, which is kind of important. But they are faced with a very simple binary choice. I don't know.

Will Sommer (00:47:11.000)

We'll have to stew on that. Well,

Jordan (00:47:12.000)

you're the one that wrote the book. Fix it? No.

Will Sommer (00:47:16.000)

I mean, I do think like, you know, maybe this kind of harkens back to what I said already. But But I think that there is that aspect of you know, when things don't really get aired out anymore in the media, as you said, like the the run up to the Iraq war. You know, people didn't say or, you know, let's say the death of Jeffrey Epstein. People say, that was really crazy. How was no one talking about this in the mainstream media? And then, you know, then they get driven to these alternative sources.

Dan (00:47:39.000)

But then also, isn't that kind of a misperception in and of itself? Like yeah, they were talking about in the pumped about it, mainstream media is like that, that's just kind of a canard that is thrown out in order to make things more secretive than right. I always fight I often, maybe not always, but I often find that to not be be like a real complaint. Ya

Jordan (00:48:01.000)

know, people in the media talked about Epstein, in my reference towards people not talking about Bush anymore, or the the war in Iraq anymore is that it seems like so many problems can be fundamentally traced back to that, you know, who was where we should really

Dan (00:48:15.000)

be talking about it all the time. And who was talking about to Terry Gross,

Jordan (00:48:18.000)

lose again.

Dan (00:48:22.000)

I want to jump off this because I don't I don't know if we're ever gonna find a like precise. We solve it tonight. I was wondering because you've traveled a lot more in these communities and talk to a lot more people. Well, is there is there any thing that you've encountered that like, sounded persuasive? Like anything from Q anon stuff? They like? That's an interesting question. Yeah.

Will Sommer (00:48:47.000)

Yeah, you know, that's a great question. I'm trying to think, like, they definitely have an eye towards finding weird looking pictures and stuff, or, you know, where I say, you know, they point to some rich guys, the, the, you know, the decorations in his house, and I say, Well, look, I wouldn't decorate my house with that. I agree, you know, but at the same time, it's sort of sort of like, where's the, there's a bit of a jump you're making to saying, This guy has weird art, to, you know, he eats children. And so that's sort of the Gulf where it leaves me, you know, or the, you know, they're obsessed now with the great reset, and this idea that the people who put on Davos are, are going to enslave us and make us eat bugs. Didn't you read? The bugs? Yeah, you know, you read some of these things they say, whereas, you know, you'll have to, you know, you'll own nothing and love it and some random article from 2016. And they say, see, this is the plot, you know, well, okay, I guess I wouldn't really like that. But you know, it again, it's sort of the there's that missing logic that I run into, but that they're more than happy to kind of leap over that chasm.

Dan (00:49:51.000)

So what I'm hearing is the compliment. They have a remarkable ability to have I have surface level aesthetic.

Will Sommer (00:50:04.000)

Yes, yes, exactly. They're certainly you know, like, you know, they're very obsessed with Sam Smith lately and thinking about all of Sam Smith performances are are Satanic sacrifices or Sam Smith?

Dan (00:50:15.000)

That's a musician, singer. Yeah, okay. He,

Will Sommer (00:50:18.000)

they wore a sort of devil horns performance at the Emmys or the Grammys, I saw some pictures.

Jordan (00:50:25.000)

Oh, they're just saying it out loud. Now they're just doing it in the hierarchy, rubbing it in our faces.

Will Sommer (00:50:31.000)

And so you can look at these things and say, Well, look, I mean, not the not the most aesthetically pleasing you know, performance perhaps but but you know, where where do we get the the sort of the balpa czar at Beelzebub warship in there. You know, as you said, I mean, they have a very fine tuned sense of aesthetics.

Jordan (00:50:50.000)

I mean, I don't know if anyone is damned with faint or praise. If I'm looking for

Dan (00:50:55.000)

an interior designer, my first prerequisite is going to be are you into q&a?

Jordan (00:51:00.000)

That is I will I understand why people get mad at you about the political stuff. But if I was in q&a, I'd be like, That's just insulting sir.

Dan (00:51:09.000)

I imagine though, that like the the flip side of it is like, if I had someone from q&a decorate my house, it might end up like all pastel colors, it would look like in like an Easter Easter egg hunt. Everything is soft and safe.

Jordan (00:51:31.000)

I want to do I wanted to ask you another question. Yeah, later on a bit near that nearing the end of the book, you start talking about the way that Republican politicians, and the like, all knew that this was bullshit, but still tried to ride the wave or CO opted or do whatever, you know, manipulated for their own benefits. And there's a question you ask of like, if they had intervened, if they had done something if they had led Republicans away? Maybe things could be different. I'm wondering, do you think that if that if the Republicans had done that they would have changed things? Or they would have just been eaten alive along with the rest of them?

Will Sommer (00:52:12.000)

You know, that's a great, great question. I think if Donald Trump had come out and said, you know, let's say before 2020, so before he went on, really got cooking. If they had if he had said, Look, this is ridiculous. Especially maybe if he had said, you know, this is a liberal psyop intending to embarrass Republicans. Right. I

Jordan (00:52:30.000)

think he was crazy with crazy. Yeah, you'd

Will Sommer (00:52:33.000)

have to Yeah, I don't think you could say, you know, look, Hillary Clinton is a friend of mine, she would not eat children. You know, you could say that. But if he had just said, you know, it sort of attacked it from from an even crazier angle. That might have stopped it. But but you're right that I don't think if Kevin McCarthy had come out and said, you know, this is ridiculous. The Republican Party is better than that. I think he probably would have just been tossed to the side in the same way that people like Liz Cheney or Adam Kinzinger were.

Dan (00:53:01.000)

Yeah, I think Alex started to do that a little bit too late. Tried to do the like you Anons globalist SIOP? Yeah, he only did that as a way to save face after

Jordan (00:53:10.000)

they didn't join the team. Yeah.

Will Sommer (00:53:12.000)

I mean, the relationship between Alex and Q anon is so fascinating, where, you know, he's, he's kind of on the road with them. And then, you know, he sees this as a new thing to talk about. And then suddenly it's like him and Q look at each other and they say, well, who's in charge here? You know, and then they gotta both reach for the knives and try to take each other out.

Dan (00:53:29.000)

Well, yeah, he had sent Jerome Corsi to try and become like, a guru of that. Yeah, that world and then he was roundly rejected. What?

Will Sommer (00:53:40.000)

I tried to interview courses so bad for this book. I wanted him more than anything, and he just said, Nope, I'm not not interested. So he saved

Dan (00:53:49.000)

you from yourself. Yeah. Because that would have been the most boring interview and

Jordan (00:53:53.000)

he would have information or something interesting or even be entertaining and it is not the case for all three.

Dan (00:53:59.000)

The only time I found him interesting was something that he wasn't even really involved in. And that was when Alex said that he had a deadman switch Yeah, and that like course he was going to be killed over the weekend because of some like bombshell he had we were waiting for that one. Yeah, that never materialized did not

Will Sommer (00:54:16.000)

so there's a guy in a in a Joseph Conrad novel who walks around with like a little bomb in his pocket and so if anyone ever tries to arrest him, it'll go off the sort of deadman switch thing and I could see Course he getting into that you know, you're getting real crazy with it. corsi Yeah. corsi

Dan (00:54:33.000)

were there. anybody. Anybody else that you really wanted to interview that didn't come around? Any? I mean, yeah. Can you meet himself?

Will Sommer (00:54:43.000)

Well, yeah, certainly. Q. You know, the obviously the best argument. I think the best evidence we have is Ron and Jim Watkins. I interviewed Jim Watkins as part of the the HBO Q series. And again, but you know, as you said, I mean, I'm sure was someone like corsi I would love to interview him if suddenly he would say our right so here's the deal. Yeah, I made it all up, you know,

Jordan (00:55:05.000)

gotta get him drunk while browsing. That's an unorthodox tactic. Yeah.

Will Sommer (00:55:10.000)

With with with Jim Watkins where this is a guy who's wearing pizza slices on his socks and he's got a cue pin and I said so, you know, you want to talk about Q anon and say What the What's Q anon? You know, I mean, very basic lies. You know, another person would have been Vincent Fusco, the JFK impersonator, a guy who drove me mad with his promises to tell me tell me the whole story. And, you know, just I would have loved to hear about, you know what it's like having all this adoration from some sort of these Boomer women who approach him and think he's JFK Jr. When, in fact, he's a guy who just drives around in a van plastered with Trump pictures.

Dan (00:55:47.000)

Yeah, for what it is like, he does a lot of cruising. He maybe uses this as a dating strategy.

Will Sommer (00:55:55.000)

You know, I think that's, that's very possible.

Jordan (00:55:59.000)

It's just, it's you people are great sometimes. Yeah. Have you ever noticed that they're cool. Sometimes they're just fucking great.

Will Sommer (00:56:06.000)

Just think about that. Think about that life. You're, you're a random guy. And then suddenly, everyone thinks you're this famous 90 sec symbol. I mean, and you're you're kind of a willing to play along with that. I mean, it would certainly up and your life.

Dan (00:56:19.000)

I mean, if you got nothing else to do.

Jordan (00:56:22.000)

That is a hard. I mean, again, we get down to binary choices. You go like I could go to work tomorrow also, or I could become JFK, Jr. Right. That's tough to ice. So

Dan (00:56:33.000)

I am curious, because one of the things that we hear a bit about, obviously, things that are more sensational, are always going to be more heard about outside of more focused Q anon following communities like, I would say that Jordan and I are people who have some familiarity with stuff, especially because it intersects with Alex Jones on a number of points. But we don't know a ton about q&a. No, no. And so a lot of the time, things that pop up are probably not indicative of the larger community, but maybe like, like a subsection. So like, obviously, not everybody believes that JFK Jr. is still alive. Right. But there are people who do. And my question is, how many people drink piss?

Jordan (00:57:24.000)

You know, there is a ballpark, you don't have to give us an exact figure. Because there's,

Dan (00:57:27.000)

there's a lot of like, you hear that, that? Like it's a it's like this popular queue adjacent homeopathic remedy for stuff. But how prevalent is it? Do you think? Well,

Jordan (00:57:38.000)

they actually drink this?

Will Sommer (00:57:39.000)

You know, I think some people are, I think it's a relatively marginal aspect of it. But But I don't think the number is zero. You know, there's a guy kind of affiliated with them, named the vaccine police, who I think is a, I think, has endorsed that, but But I mean, yeah, like, you know, look, I gotta give it up to the q&a on people hear what you got, while while that definitely is the thing? I don't think it's it's super mainstream, because it's

Dan (00:58:07.000)

supposed to be like, or at least the way that some of those people sell it is like, it's a remedy for the vaccine. You know, like, so. I mean, yeah, you gotta if you accidentally got vaccinated, do you got to do something?

Will Sommer (00:58:20.000)

Yeah, no, that's definitely I mean, I think this vaccine police guy is into that. And Dr. Group, Doctor group, for sure. Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, it is these you know, I think that is one of those kinds of homeopathic cures. And so, you know, it. i It's not as unheard of, as I as I might wish it was. Yeah,

Jordan (00:58:38.000)

I that actually gave me a interesting question. Do you think Q anon is going to last long enough to have its own like Protestant Reformation kind of thing where all the 95 theses have? Absolutely no, no, totally. If it lasts long enough, there are so many small factions within it. You know, you as you said, Some people believe he's JFK, Jr. Do you think it gets big enough? And lasts long enough to explode into a million different versions of itself?

Will Sommer (00:59:07.000)

Yeah, I mean, I think it's really already headed that way. I mean, you know, Q post, occasionally, but not very much. In the past, the Q Hughes sort of played this, like this papel like role of deciding what's in the canon and not and so Q said, the JFK Jr. Stuff is not Q anon. And so, you know, that didn't entirely stop it. But but people could refer to that and say, you know, okay, we don't believe in JFK, Jr. Where, whereas now really, you can sort of do whatever you want. And so you have all these kind of mini queues popping up. You know, these just various Q anon promoters who sort of take it in different directions. I mean, obviously, a very extreme example, or with a group of people who sort of camped out in Dallas looking for JFK Jr. To come back to life. And, you know, one thing that's close, right, and, you know, they would say, Oh, I think that guy's Tupac over there. That's Robin Williams. But the one thing that's fascinating to me is that You know, you have what you might call like mainline or orthodox Q anon people, and they say look at those freaks. Those guys are a psyop meant to embarrass us where the legitimate operation were respectable.

Jordan (01:00:12.000)

Funny how that works.

Dan (01:00:13.000)

Yeah. But you can't argue with it really? I mean, like, I mean, you could argue with it being a like, sigh up to make them look bad, but you kind of gotta give it up for their aesthetic sensibility.

Will Sommer (01:00:26.000)

Well, you do have to, you're right, you do often after a bit, you're like, well, those guys do look pretty ridiculous. These guys you're trying to cast out of your movement? What

Dan (01:00:35.000)

I have not kept up with those Dallas folks, that negative 48. Is that? What what was that?

Will Sommer (01:00:47.000)

Yeah, so this is the right is the the gematria people who, you know that they think negative 48 that number spells out, you know, JFK Jr. will come back to life or something like that. But I believe they, because so yeah, so November, they went back to Dallas last November, and we're kind of waiting around again. And, and you know, they still sort of travel and they do kind of the Trump roadshow and they go to all these these Trump events. And obviously, their numbers of people have kind of gone back to their families in a lot of cases. You know, and you can kind of keep making these predictions. And ultimately, you know, people will start start waking up even, even no matter how deep in it, they are, but but they're still at it.

Dan (01:01:26.000)

You know, that's one of the weird things about, you know, when you look at the history of doomsday preachers and people who have made apocalyptic predictions and stuff, like, you think that being wrong will end up like, oh, it's all over, everyone's going to leave you but it doesn't. It's so weird how that works.

Jordan (01:01:43.000)

Now, this this book brought me like the, the thing that I kept thinking throughout the entire book was about the Miller rights. And, and about a, like, the guy in my head throughout this entire book was the guy who so believed that what he was saying was true, that he waited to the stroke of midnight and jumped off his barn and died instantly. And, and like, it didn't even matter that the next day, everything was fine. And so many people were like, Oh, he got the date wrong. But that guy jumped, man. Should people be like, Hey, that guy died for this?

Will Sommer (01:02:18.000)

No, I mean, it's fascinating that that you know how people grapple grapple with that cognitive dissonance, you know, whether it's the Miller writes expecting the apocalypse or, or, you know, cute unbelievers thinking that Hillary Clinton is gonna be arrested, you know, just a few more months from now.

Dan (01:02:34.000)

I realize in hindsight, I shouldn't have said drinking pee I should have gone with the bleach thing, because that was probably Yeah.

Will Sommer (01:02:38.000)

prevalent, right? Yeah, I don't. I think that is more prevalent. The bleach it? Well, yeah, certainly. I

Jordan (01:02:45.000)

mean, yeah, because it's way more reasonable to drink bleach

Dan (01:02:47.000)

than he Dan MMR.

Jordan (01:02:50.000)

If you can clean your house, then it can clean you that makes perfect sense.

Will Sommer (01:02:55.000)

Yes, yes. You know, Dan, you're absolutely right. I mean, that is a big thing. And, you know, one of the big huge on promoters Jordan's safe there has, you know, implied many times that he's going to sue me for me saying he wants people to drink, you know, this, what amounts to bleach, but obviously, I've been sued yet. And you know, they, you know, people, it's just it's terrible with the bleach stuff where people, you know, they say, oh, you know, I think it's really working. I'm constantly sick and you know, my energy.

Dan (01:03:24.000)

It's just you got to go through it to get to the other side. You got to you got to be sick for a while for that leads to really work.

Jordan (01:03:31.000)

Yeah, it reminds me of something Alex said when he just he said recently, he was really sick with COVID. And so he took ivermectin and then a couple of weeks later, it worked perfectly. Yeah. And it just reminds me so much of that like, yeah. All right.

Dan (01:03:45.000)

Except by reductions. I'm gonna kill you. That's true.

Will Sommer (01:03:51.000)

I think so. I guess well.

Dan (01:03:55.000)

So what do you what do you see on the horizon? For Q Anon, the only predictions?

Will Sommer (01:04:01.000)

Yeah, well, look, I mean, I think Q anon has succeeded in some ways in kind of mainstreaming this conspiratorial thinking in the GOP and to, you know, making it acceptable to call your opponent's groomers or pedophiles. You know, and obviously, the big moment here is gonna be 2024 and Donald Trump running again, I think he's gonna win. I feel that way too. You know, that video of him, you know, going to side with the train derailment and giving everyone Big Macs and saying, Oh, I love the I love the McDonald's menu. I know it better than anybody. And then people, you know, when you talk to people who kind of follow politics, but but not maybe as closely as we do. And then they say, Well, I don't know about Ron DeSantis. And, you know, I always say just watch a video of him speaking like, he's not going to do it because, you know, they want that they want that charisma or, you know, they want that

Dan (01:04:50.000)

kind of a weak Trump impression. Yeah. And

Jordan (01:04:53.000)

he's it. If they talk face to face, Trump would eat him alive, so

Dan (01:04:58.000)

vulnerable to being bullied. All right, loser him so it off God,

Jordan (01:05:03.000)

I'll give you my Dark Horse right now. Yeah, Dark Horse prediction.

Dan (01:05:07.000)

Hillary? No,

Jordan (01:05:08.000)

I think Nikki Haley will win. Oh, yep.

Will Sommer (01:05:11.000)

This is really strong a strong take. Can you

Jordan (01:05:14.000)

tell you this? Well, I'll tell you the there are a couple of reasons why. First, this is the exact same situation that Nikki Haley was in, during her first election where she had to split through these two people who were essentially way more popular than her by a wide margin. But because they were both such dicks to each other, she wound up sneaking through. And I don't think anybody really wants Trump to be president ever again. Even people who love Him, they want him to be God King, they don't want to vote for him. DeSantis is going to get his ass beaten left and right by Trump because he's pathetic. And Nikki Haley is going to come through looking like the only intelligent person on this dumb fucking planet. And I have always maintained that's

Dan (01:05:55.000)

what everyone thought was gonna happen in 2016, though, like that Trump and some of these other people would would cannibalize each other. And then you'd end up with Jeb Bush squeaking through,

Jordan (01:06:04.000)

but I have always maintained that the first female president will be a Republican. And I think that it's going to be Nikki Haley.

Dan (01:06:13.000)

I think you're very wrong. Your prediction is trash. Yeah,

Will Sommer (01:06:17.000)

totally. I'm fine with that. I feel like I'm being I'm being swayed like, oh, I don't know, maybe.

Dan (01:06:27.000)

On paper are good. Your points are fine. Now, if this were DraftKings, and we were gambling on this, you'd get long odds. Yes. And I would say, take that bet. Yeah, it's gonna pay off if it hit

Jordan (01:06:41.000)

Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna bet a ton on it. No, but if I do, if it hits, then that small amount is going to go

Dan (01:06:46.000)

along with that five bucks on this to wait. 20 grand? Yeah,

Jordan (01:06:50.000)

I think that's a wise move.

Dan (01:06:51.000)

You got to talk to Robert Barnes. No, I do not. He's the guy who gave

Jordan (01:06:57.000)

to Barnes and Noble.

Dan (01:07:00.000)

Robert Barnes and Noble. So, I want to but when I was asking for predictions, I was I was actually more thinking like, what's their next conspiracy? Do you have any I like, that's a good question from from monitoring their, their sensibilities and knowing like, what triggers there are like, can you do you have any sense of like, what, what's gonna happen next? Because I feel like it's unpredictable. But yeah, but maybe, maybe there's a, maybe you have some Gematria? Ooh,

Jordan (01:07:33.000)

let me ask you this. Let me phrase it to you this way. Do you have any stories that you are working on right now, that Q anon could turn into something really juicy?

Will Sommer (01:07:42.000)

Yeah, you know, actually, let me lay this out. So I mean, you know, the best ones are the you could really never see him coming, right? You know, the ones that we still talk about now, like Wayfair. Right. Wayfarer is another great example, the idea that, you know, they're just going to latch on to these auto generated names on a furniture site. And it means they're rolling up kids in cabinets and stuff like that. No one except a Q and M person could ever have thought of that. But you know, at the same time, I think we're gonna see, you know, it's the same time if Kuhn on the downside of it, as an observer of this is that it sort of sucks up a lot of energy from the conspiratorial swamps, and sort of everything just becomes this vague, like, you know, that's what they want you to fake, you know, just kind of like, oh, that's a distraction. But, you know, people aren't really like putting in the work. And so that said, the one I'm seeing right now is, you know, this Vivec Ramaswamy guy that's sort of the anti woke CEO, who's declared his presidential run this. Never heard of this, dude,

Dan (01:08:43.000)

this is not really what's happening.

Will Sommer (01:08:45.000)

He's sort of so this is this guy, who's he's, he's a really rich guy. And he is sort of like,

Jordan (01:08:52.000)

like in politics now that can be taken as read.

Will Sommer (01:08:55.000)

Yeah, he's like Republican Andrew Yang. So he's like, you know, I'm a business guy. And I got a lot of ideas. I mean, in practice, his ideas are just, you know, destroy federal government. Exactly. And so but but the thing is, because he's a rich guy, he has these ties to the World Economic Forum. And so now all these Republicans are saying, you know, your people like Jack pisode Becker saying, you know, you're an agent of George Soros. And so now he has to say, no, no, no, I, the World Economic Forum's just obsessed with me. That's why they put me on their website, you know, and I said, Don't do it. And so I think they're really going to tie this guy in in a big way. And look, it doesn't have the pizzazz of pizza gate or Wayfair. Or, you know, Tom Hanks, you know, his various conspiracy theories, but, but I think this is one that's really gonna get cooking, as we as we sort of wait for for 2024 really to swing up.

Dan (01:09:47.000)

I see this guy hasn't. I've just looked up his Wikipedia page, and I see him having a number of significant problems with the current Republican Party. One as a Presidential candidate, he's Hindoo that's gonna be a big hurdle. It'll

Jordan (01:10:03.000)

be a win for the Republicans. Second,

Dan (01:10:04.000)

he went to Harvard and Yale, which is going to be very elitist stuff. He's not buying your Big Macs. And apparently he had a postgraduate fellowship at the Paul and Daisy Soros fellowship.

Will Sommer (01:10:18.000)

Which, I didn't even know that.

Jordan (01:10:21.000)

Two seconds you just make you are not happy

Dan (01:10:24.000)

this. This is gonna be a real uphill battle.

Jordan (01:10:28.000)

Wow, that's, you know, it reminds me of that old famous saying, if you're gonna hang out with a bunch of witch hunters, don't be surprised if you turn out to be a witch sooner or later.

Will Sommer (01:10:39.000)

Exactly, exactly. I mean, this is the guy who wants to say, you know, I'm the I'm the good, rich, well connected. Ivy League guy, you know, I'm the I'm the good billionaire. Exactly. But But I don't think I don't think it's gonna end. Well. I mean, I really do love that this guy is just like alternate universe, Andrew Yang. And so, you know, obviously, Andrew Yang is now the president. So presumably, it'll work out well, for him.

Dan (01:10:59.000)

We'll see. Well, he was a Yang was able to marshal the resources of all of the people who have left the left. All those last liberal types like Dave Rubin and Tim Poole,

Jordan (01:11:12.000)

man, they were so on the left. Yeah. So lefty,

Dan (01:11:16.000)

cool, guys. Yeah. Well, well, we should probably wrap this up here in a few but it's been a delight, chatting with you. Absolute pleasure. I hope people do check out your book, which is now available. It is trust the plan, the rise of Q Anon, and the conspiracy, that unhinged America. Now I want to talk about this subtitle before we

Jordan (01:11:40.000)

finally a critique of the book.

Dan (01:11:45.000)

You think that this conspiracy theory unhinged America? Jordan has some thoughts for you?

Jordan (01:11:54.000)

Also, I think I have a better argument than it did. I think

Will Sommer (01:11:59.000)

we'll have to save it for the sequel, maybe. But, you know, I think Jordans made a compelling point here, that we're all just sort of living in the you know, I mean, look, if someone said, you know, we're all sort of living in the aftermath of 911 and Iran here, you know, you're you're right on.

Dan (01:12:14.000)

But then that's in the aftermath of the Satanic Panic and the first Gulf War and you know,

Jordan (01:12:20.000)

Miller, right, and so on and so forth. All the way back. So the problem

Dan (01:12:23.000)

with your thinking, Jordan, is that you know, it always there's always another chicken for the egg and another egg for the chickens. Sure,

Jordan (01:12:30.000)

sure. My friend. Maybe we should learn more about them. chickens and eggs. Yeah. I don't know which one came first yet. But I do think that there is something to

Dan (01:12:39.000)

Q and on on hinging America. I'm I'm joking about your subtitle, but there is something to it. There is there is something different and more weird I about this. This time,

Jordan (01:12:53.000)

I think the way that Q anon has successfully gone through the conservative feedback loop, and then still come out the other side is kind of an amazing thing to me. Because it starts out at 4chan, and then less than a year later, you're getting occasional drops on Fox News.

Will Sommer (01:13:14.000)

Yeah, I mean, it. It is remarkable how you know how long lasting it's been in? It just really hit success. I mean, it wasn't just one thing where, you know, like Jade Helm. Okay, Obama is going to arrest Texas conservatives and put them in Walmart prison camps. I mean, it believes that happens sums up everything. Yes.

Dan (01:13:28.000)

I was weird when he did that. Yeah. How do we move past that so fast? You know,

Will Sommer (01:13:32.000)

but I will say something about the subtitle. You know, you write one of these books, you got to have a long subtitle, you know, explaining the deal. But but in my case, it's especially useful, because it makes clear that it's not a pro Q anon book. Because otherwise, you know, you have the Q on it. And it says, Trust the plan. And so you need the subtitle to say, you know, if you're reading it on the subway, or at a bar or something that says, you know, hey, it's not, you know, don't worry, I'm not I'm not really boning up on my IQ and

Dan (01:13:57.000)

see, that would be a fun subtitle, trust the plan. The person reading this book is not you know, what, we were talking just a second ago about that, like, the way that it went from 4chan to pretty quickly into the Republican Party. And it is sort of different and unique from other times. And I was, I would wonder about your take on this. Well, it's like, there is so much that is similar to this about that to like, the Satanic Panic, right? How much do you think this would have been? What happened if the internet was as prevalent? That's a bad question.

Will Sommer (01:14:36.000)

You know, it's fascinating. I mean, I think the Satanic Panic is, you know, and obviously, a lot of people point to this rightly as a precursor to Q anon. It's so wild how and you know, I didn't live through it as a little kid but it must have been a crazy time to be alive because how everyone just got on board with it in a way that really they haven't with q&a. We don't have you know, TV stations, you know, nightly news saying, oh, yeah, you know, turns out they're a bunch of pedophiles in here. We don't have police arresting people because of accusations made in Q anon. Whereas in the Satanic Panic there's still a guy in prison who was arrested on some kind of trumped up Satanic Panic charge. So I mean, it really was and maybe not directly answering your question, but but I have to imagine susiana Panic would have been even worse was just absolutely crazy time to read up on.

Dan (01:15:26.000)

I mean, yeah, the McMartin trial and Ted Gunderson, nonce, but I mean, to be fair, Ted Gunderson still a name that flies around in these circles, you know, like,

Will Sommer (01:15:37.000)

yeah, and they still pick it up. I mean, they say, you know, these kinds of foundational Satanic Panic books, like Michelle remembers, and they, you know, Q anon people will kind of dredge them up. And, you know, even when you have, you know, Tiktok teens getting into into, you know, their own kind of Satanic Panic stuff, where they say, oh, you know, look at this stuff in the 80s. And no one talks about this anymore.

Dan (01:15:59.000)

They don't realize there's a reason. Yeah. But that also leads me to my next concern about this, like, the similarities with the Satanic Panic is like, I think it kind of went away and receded. Maybe because the internet didn't exist the way it does now possible. There's such an ability to recycle things and sort of pretend that they're not things that we've moved past,

Jordan (01:16:25.000)

right. And nothing ever goes away. Right? If we've moved past something, we're not talking about it. And if we're not talking about it to people who've never heard of it, what, they're, they're hiding this from us, why aren't they telling us everything?

Dan (01:16:38.000)

Yeah, it makes me worry that this Satanic Panic was received the same way the last one did, because of that dynamic,

Jordan (01:16:46.000)

it feels it feels like the way that COVID has turned in Demak. So has Q Anon, we have to abolish

Dan (01:16:51.000)

Tiktok.

Will Sommer (01:16:52.000)

I mean, you're right on because I mean, you can just picture these tiktoks where they say, you know, Why does no one talk about this? And then, you know, kind of the person making it is just pointing it at weird stuff from pizza gate, for example. Yeah, well, that's

Dan (01:17:04.000)

that whole same phenomenon of like, people like Jordan Peterson and the intellectual Dark Web folks being like, I just want to have conversations about racial IQ differences. Like, why can't we talk about this boy? You know, it's like, well,

Jordan (01:17:22.000)

for the same reason, we don't talk about physiognomy anymore. For God says, we don't talk about this, you idiots. It

Dan (01:17:27.000)

has moved past this. I don't know. Anyway, that's a great note to

Jordan (01:17:34.000)

you, Matt. Well, do you have any closing thoughts?

Will Sommer (01:17:38.000)

Yeah, no, I, it's just so much q&a is it's just there's so much weird stuff in it. And there is had so many just bizarre effects, and that I wanted to get into in the book that I think, you know, often our, we don't have time in the news cycle to get into and so hopefully, folks will like the book. And, you know, I really appreciate you guys giving it a giving it a read and having me on? Of course, I absolutely

Dan (01:17:58.000)

do. So it's it's a delight to talk to you. And I have to assume too, that like, because the topic is so broad and the implications for like, personal stories, the political aspects, the narrative aspects, I have to assume that the experience of writing a book about it is gonna be like, well, I could write three more books, you know, to be frustrating.

Jordan (01:18:22.000)

I mean, it is it uh, you do a very good job of balancing out the the very individual, the micro and the macro, are really, really, really well done on that.

Will Sommer (01:18:32.000)

Well, thank you. I mean, it's really a sprawling thing. And so I, you know, I tried to really get just the best and the most interesting and the most maybe poignant aspects of it and it's a lot every day and as you guys know, I mean, this conspiracy theory stuff. It's, there's, there's a whole lot

Jordan (01:18:46.000)

to talk about.

Dan (01:18:48.000)

Maybe too much. To the point where we have like, 800 episodes.

Jordan (01:18:52.000)

Too many episodes of anything up cheers yet.

Dan (01:18:57.000)

I think so

Jordan (01:18:58.000)

good. Yeah. That time somebody fucking tears. Yeah.

Dan (01:19:06.000)

Well, well, thank you for joining us. People can find your book. It's all book retailers, Robert Barnes and Noble.

Jordan (01:19:14.000)

Of course, of course, of course. Good work. But Robert Barnes.

Dan (01:19:17.000)

Limestone books, the Christian bookstore in my hometown, which I thought was a chain but maybe not. Amazon don't go there. Don't but they have books. If people could just find you at will summer on. On Twitter. I'm sure there's links to you bet find stuff there. Right. Absolutely. Hope we can talk again in the future. And

Jordan (01:19:40.000)

this is wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us. Yeah. Well, thanks

Will Sommer (01:19:43.000)

for having me, guys. Well,

Dan (01:19:45.000)

we will be back Jordan, but until then, I'm going to do I don't know how to end these things. When we were doing an interview. Yes. I don't want to sit back down and record. I think when we do the drop right anything so hey we'll be back yeah hey this is how we ended

Jordan (01:20:03.000)

yeah click

Unknown Speaker (01:20:05.000)

Andy in Kansas you're on the air Thanks for holding Well Alex I'm a first time caller I'm a huge fan I love your work I love you