Transcript/664: Formulaic Objections Part 5

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Alex Jones (00:00:04.000)

Red Alert. Red alert. Red alert. Red. Alert. Red alert. Knowledge five days. Damn, Jordan I'm sweating. Knowledge party.com It's time to pray. I have great respect for knowledge, knowledge. I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys. Xiang Ji or the bad guy knowledge. Dan and Jordan knowledge five need money Andy and Sandy you're stopping Andy and Pam handy in Kansas. Bray Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks for holding this huge fan. I love your work. Knowledge by knowledge fight.com

Dan (00:00:59.000)

Hey, everybody, welcome back knowledge, right. I'm Dan. I'm Jordan. We're a couple dudes like to sit around worship at the altar of saline and talk a little bit about Alex June.

Jordan (00:01:06.000)

Oh, indeed. We are Dan Jordan, Dan Jordan question. So

Dan (00:01:10.000)

what's your price but my bread spot today is actually a continuation of the last brightspot Mustard. We have responded quite well. The notion

Jordan (00:01:19.000)

of a mustard is actually

Dan (00:01:21.000)

maybe not a bright spot maybe was the worst possible outcome, but I do appreciate it. Also, someone tweeted at us a picture of hot Dan the mustard man. Oh, yeah, I saw that might be my monitor with the mustard. Oh, it'd be hard day on the western man.

Jordan (00:01:36.000)

I feel like I have to follow you to some sort of hidden pathway. If you're hard to muster, man,

Dan (00:01:40.000)

right? You're gonna have to choose your own condiments to celebrate a year of I feel like I'm gonna be eaten with a condiment. Are there any condiments that you would choose to take? Like sample varieties of for your? Like, there's there's probably not enough ketchups

Jordan (00:01:54.000)

you know, I mean, here's here's what I would say salad dressing. A spa? What would I call him? spicy Spicy. Asian sauces. Okay, what do I What do I like a sweet and sour kind of sauce combined with like, you know, all of those varieties.

Dan (00:02:10.000)

I don't know what I would call that as a category actually. But I would like all of them. Okay, well, that's your year. That's my you find a way to hear that. So, thank you all for enabling me.

Jordan (00:02:22.000)

Yes. I think that's kind of the problem.

Dan (00:02:27.000)

Well, I mean, it's not like my blind spots. Not gonna be like, Will Smith. Some shit. No. Mustard.

Jordan (00:02:35.000)

I didn't want anything. I definitely don't want mustard. My bright spot is somebody very kindly they they didn't leave their name on the note. But they very kindly sent me some black bean. coffee and chocolate. Chocolate. Oh, delicious. Yeah, absolutely fantastic. The coffee is fantastic.

Dan (00:02:56.000)

Like anything other than Folgers. We've established? No, I

Jordan (00:02:59.000)

love coffee. I just drink so much of it that I might as well survive cheaply. All right, you drink a pot of coffee a day and Starbucks will catch up to you.

Dan (00:03:07.000)

Well, yeah, also, Folgers sucks.

Jordan (00:03:11.000)

You drink a pot of it a day and you'll get used to it. Anyways, it's very nice.

Dan (00:03:16.000)

Chocolate was really good.

Jordan (00:03:17.000)

Thank you very much for the wedding present. I only have one thing to say which is static. Okay, but I

Dan (00:03:24.000)

appreciate it. Sure. I wish I had that on hand. It really wouldn't be valued. Well, that's great. Yeah. And thank them for also. I mean, it rolled downhill and I got to eat some of that. Yeah, well, naturally. So Jordan today we have a very, we have a holiday we people will be very excited. Yes. To learn that today. We have to deposition Oh, yeah. Over another formulaic objection. That's episode for y'all. And it's, there's a lot of there's a lot to get into. So I think we should not kill any more time over and let's get down to business. Let's go. Whoa. What's that? Say? I just hold on?

Jordan (00:04:03.000)

I think we do. Yeah, I

Dan (00:04:04.000)

think that's that's that's called for. So first a up Nick into Yorkshire air or something. You are now policy walk.

Alex Jones (00:04:12.000)

I'm a policy.

Dan (00:04:13.000)

Thank you very much. Next more QA and knowledge flight crossovers. Exclamation point. Thank you so much. You are now policy?

Alex Jones (00:04:18.000)

Well, I'm a policy wonk.

Dan (00:04:20.000)

Thank you very much. Next, Jordan is my favorite author. Thank you so much. You are now a policy wonk.

Alex Jones (00:04:24.000)

I'm a policy wonk,

Jordan (00:04:25.000)

thank you very much.

Dan (00:04:27.000)

Next, my dog has a policy nock. Thank you so much. You are now policy walk.

Alex Jones (00:04:30.000)

I'm a policy wonk, thank

Jordan (00:04:31.000)

you very much.

Dan (00:04:32.000)

Next, Brett and Paul are besties thank you so much. You are now policy walk.

Alex Jones (00:04:36.000)

I'm a policy wonk.

Dan (00:04:37.000)

Thank you very much correction. Paul and Brett are bestie Oh, okay. So

Jordan (00:04:41.000)

Brett, Brett may not be as intuitive as Paul is. You never know. Yeah, it's possible.

Dan (00:04:46.000)

Oh, so we got a tax credit in the mix. And I have news on the other side of this. But Hello, my name is Eric and I tried to get the baddie shark back. Thank you so much. You are now a technocrat.

Alex Jones (00:04:56.000)

I'm a policy wonk. I have risen above my I enemies I might quit tomorrow actually just gonna take a little break now a little breaky for me. And then we're going to come back and I'm going to start the show over, but I'm the devil a lot going on there Fuck you. Fuck you. I got plenty of words for you but at the end of the day Fuck you and your new world order and fuck the horse she wrote in on and all your shit. Maybe today's COBOL is broadcast. Maybe I'll just be gone a month maybe five years. Maybe I'll walk out of here tomorrow and you never see me again. That's really what I want to do. I never want to come back here again. I apologize to the crew and the listeners yesterday that I was legitimately having right now is on here. I'll be better tomorrow.

Dan (00:05:50.000)

We will not know if he's better. Yeah, I hope because today we will be hearing nothing from Alex zero Alex info but the news is I have decided with that I will be a benevolent podcast. And Eric is asking for Daddy shark to come back. Yes, of course. I will. I will honor this on the 660 so episode 666 Alex is covering

Jordan (00:06:17.000)

everything we do is so arbitrary right.

Dan (00:06:25.000)

Preparing This podcast is a brutal endeavor that fun time. And so I must amuse myself years of mustard. Dangling daddy show. So that that is common. It's beautiful. So, Jordan today we have two depositions to go over we're going to be talking about one with Kitt Daniels indeed, who is a editor and writer for Infowars the website right not an on air personality, although I definitely have seen him in some videos in the past, but not regularly loose definition of writer. Yes, that is an issue that is going to show you this. So that is a deposition that is related to the Marcel Fontaine case, which is a case where Kip Daniels wrote an article and posted it on Infowars where he missed identify the Parkland shooter based on a picture that he found on 4chan, right. And this is delved into deposition. Yes. And then the second deposition is Owen Shroyer is deposition in the Sandy Hook case in Texas. And so these are the two that we're going to get into. And interestingly, these are depositions that Mark Bankston didn't take No, he wasn't him. It was not the lawyer who was giving these and actually, he was well, it's Bill Ogden. He's co attorney for the plaintiffs. And so, you know, in our in our past episodes, you know, the last few at least, but you know, we're gonna have some deposition stuff to talk about sort of been our pattern to talk to the attorney who's giving the course holding the deposition inexplicably they want to talk to us it's very bizarre but that luck is gonna run out like there's no way that bill would want to come and have a conversation with us.

Jordan (00:08:12.000)

Let's be honest, we're kind of uninteresting Yeah,

Dan (00:08:14.000)

we will do Hey, folks, Hello. We are here joined to start off this this episode poor get into these these these depositions here? Oh, yeah, we have in front of us another formulaic objections. Everybody

Jordan (00:08:31.000)

loves deposition. They

Dan (00:08:31.000)

can't get enough of what

Jordan (00:08:33.000)

a weird world we live in where our fans are like holy shit, a deposition yet Watch out. It's

Dan (00:08:41.000)

it's like a big deal that it's I don't know why, but I don't know why either. But it's fantastic. Yes. And speaking of fantastic, we are joined today to talk about this a little bit. We've had the other counsel for the plane total scores on Mark Bankston, right couple of times, right. That these your depositions but this time, we've got the other counsel in the case Bill Ogden joining us. Thank you so much, Bill. How are you today?

Bill Ogden (00:09:06.000)

Hey, longtime listener. first time caller. Big fan of what is now probably the most listened to legal podcast. Thanks for having me.

Jordan (00:09:18.000)

You know, I think our pals and opening arguments might have. They might be pissed.

Dan (00:09:22.000)

Yeah, you have touched on a really good point, though. And that is that we screwed up by putting our podcast in the comedy and news sections of iTunes 100% We should have chosen something else that we could be like at the top. Where's the number one law? Yes.

Bill Ogden (00:09:37.000)

wandering, wandering Vagabond of different genres of podcasting, the most versatile Yes.

Dan (00:09:47.000)

We are not the best point guard not the best center but we're an all around Yep, kinda

Bill Ogden (00:09:52.000)

tell ya six man.

Jordan (00:09:54.000)

We're bam adebayo. That's how we do shrimp depthless? Yeah, well. I don't know if I Got this picture

Dan (00:10:00.000)

up, but by all the by all the reference. So Bill, we were thrilled to talk to you a little bit before we get to this episode because we're listening to two depositions that you actually were in charge of and we're handling and what would I presenting? What What would the we're

Bill Ogden (00:10:21.000)

ya though Yeah, they turned out pretty much as an interrogation but the lawyer will take a deposition that witness will give a deposition. So I took these two deputies.

Dan (00:10:29.000)

Did you ever you took

Bill Ogden (00:10:34.000)

some of my better work?

Jordan (00:10:38.000)

took those demos from behind my friend I,

Dan (00:10:42.000)

I was thinking about this. I went to Austin, I met you and Mark came along to the Alex and Daria depositions. And both of those Mark was taking, and I saw his style, and you know that he has kind of like a more like a jocular kind of style. There's a little bit of a friendship thing and some playing around. And I watch these depositions and I realized, like, I would be so much more scared of being across the table from you. I think Mark will mess you up, too. But oh, no,

Jordan (00:11:14.000)

absolutely. But he will make you like it while he does, you know? Yeah,

Dan (00:11:18.000)

it's there questions that you asked like kit and that I just see like, oh, no, no, no.

Bill Ogden (00:11:26.000)

No, definitely I and I tell witnesses in these cases, I've pulled witnesses, especially ones that have been deposed by Mark and then are now being deposed by me. Or if we have a witness go day one and I'm taking I'm doing the day to day to depots. I'll tell the witness like I'm just letting you know now. Mr. Bankston wasn't very pleasant yesterday and he's the nice one of us like I was straight up. By

Jordan (00:11:52.000)

training day style Denzel watch, I

Bill Ogden (00:11:56.000)

don't want them to be caught off guard when it happens. You know, I just say it's coming just if you got to do something you might want to hydrate so.

Dan (00:12:05.000)

So we have we have these two depositions here today, we have Kitt, Daniels deposition, and an Owen Shroyer deposition. And the thing that's kind of weird about this is these are from two different cases.

Bill Ogden (00:12:18.000)

Right? So Owens case, oh, when was deposition was for the Heslin case where he went on air and said, what he said about Nielsen and that kind of thing. And then kit was the person at Infowars that wrote the article that started all of this. He wrote the article about Marcel Fontaine, who's an individual in Maine, Massachusetts, who they pinned his photo and said, This is the Florida Parkland High school shooter that just massacred a bunch of kids in Florida. So that case, the Florida case, we filed first, and from the media attention that we had no idea was coming. From all of that we got contacted by the Sandy Hook parents, and that's kind of where the chronological order of how this all came about.

Dan (00:13:05.000)

That is that is kind of remarkable. Yeah,

Jordan (00:13:07.000)

I mean, I can't imagine being kit Daniels, and like recognizing exactly what dumb fuckup you made that took down all of info.

Bill Ogden (00:13:19.000)

Like he was he's very critical, at least answering my questions. He was very critical of himself at this point. I was like, yeah, one to 10 Right. And he's like, to really straight up and it wasn't like planned and I was you know, some would say it was a bit unprofessional but hey, that's just me. But he said to and I just was like, really? Like What? What? What's a one like, This is bad.

Dan (00:13:49.000)

Oh, man, one would be like broken sentences. Yeah,

Jordan (00:13:53.000)

it'd be the words actually lighting on fire as you write them.

Bill Ogden (00:13:58.000)

Yep. Or he actually used white font on a white background. It was just a blank piece of paper, I guess would be a one forum they forgot that that's not gonna that's not going to trigger a litany of litigation against his company so you know, but hey, I guess that's better than this.

Dan (00:14:16.000)

That's so wild though to think about like this just kind of domino effect. Do you ever like get Daniels wrote this article and that led to the Marcel Fontaine being defamed and the starting of this trial. Yeah. Which leads to the sandy you guys representing the Sandy Hook folks which leads to but even think like the further back because the the Fontaine stuff was based on him reporting on like, troll shit from 4chan. So whoever posted that actually is responsible for taking down that

Bill Ogden (00:14:46.000)

guy and you can't you can't just go back you gotta go keep going forward because then it triggered these lawsuits and here I am talking to you guys. So wait, so here I am congratulating Jordan I believe you just got married so yeah, So I think kit Daniels for that. Congratulations.

Dan (00:15:04.000)

You might not be married if it wasn't for kids.

Jordan (00:15:07.000)

If it weren't for kid Daniels. I think this all makes sense now.

Bill Ogden (00:15:10.000)

project follows.

Jordan (00:15:13.000)

This is the problem with us just watching knowing.

Dan (00:15:16.000)

Yeah. determinism is getting

Jordan (00:15:21.000)

the only the only way this could be better as if it was Kitt Daniels first day. That would be the greatest moment like the very first thing he wrote on his first day was this.

Dan (00:15:32.000)

Yeah, that'd be beautiful. Unfortunately, it made many errors prior. Yeah. One of the things that kind of shook me a little bit was when I was watching that deposition. He kept Daniel seems a little bit older than I expected. I kind of

Bill Ogden (00:15:45.000)

Yeah, I think he's 37. He was he's older than I am, which I was kind of caught off guard by as well. Wait, I'm 30.

Jordan (00:15:57.000)

But you also Dan's older than you are, I'm kind of caught off guard by

Bill Ogden (00:16:03.000)

34 years young,

Dan (00:16:06.000)

I have really fucked up my low.

Jordan (00:16:08.000)

I know. Look at us both and work backwards.

Dan (00:16:12.000)

I think I'm better than Kitt. Daniels, at least, it wasn't in that deposition room. Or

Bill Ogden (00:16:17.000)

you can score here, but I don't think it's close here.

Dan (00:16:22.000)

I always pictured him as kind of like a maybe mid to late 20s. guy because he has like a sort of a youthful naivete to him in the times that I've seen him on video on Infowars before. But I'm seeing him in that room. There was a, you know, obviously, a longer face, and certainly not having fun, that he

Bill Ogden (00:16:46.000)

would probably I will say this, you can be a certain personality in life or in your professional career and whatnot. But when you're when you walk into the deposition room, and you ask Where Where do I sit and they pointed the hedge chair, it kind of kicks in. And then when that court reporter tells you to raise your right hand, it's like, oh, my god, what am I doing here? So it gets life gets real, real fast. And I'm just like, oh, this is another day in the office. But everybody else is just like, because there's not you're you're looking right at a giant camera lens that's just directly on you. And you've got lawyers just spit firing questions. And somebody's asking an objection. You don't know what's going on. But you know, you don't want to answer that really hard

Dan (00:17:26.000)

question. Right. So it's like you have lawyers who have probably poorly prepared you. Certainly number of past lawyers probably didn't tell people exactly like, here's what it means to be under oath. Yeah, totally. You know,

Jordan (00:17:41.000)

here's what a corporate representative does. And that actually

Dan (00:17:44.000)

leads us to another interesting point. And this is very important. And that is that you bill were the person who took Rob dues legendary deposition.

Bill Ogden (00:17:54.000)

I did the so my role at the firm. When I came in, I started looking, you know, they hired me right out of law school. And when I came, well, actually, I worked there for a year and a half during law school, and then they offered me a job. And so I started looking around to see what can i Master that can bring value to the firm, and dorks? 30? To an extent, yes, that's actually what I do. So 36 is what we call it, which is a corporate representative depo. And so I just kind of mastered meticulously going through topics and making the person just look really unprepared. And with these topics, it wasn't hard, because there's just no way there's so many false claims and just kind of bullshit being thrown around that you no one could know and get a grip on all of it. So even if things

Dan (00:18:46.000)

like sincerely answering a lot of those questions would just kind of reveal more questions of the the ineptitude, and unpreparedness. Probably,

Bill Ogden (00:18:54.000)

oh, yeah, answering them is worse than not knowing at this point, just if they knew the answer, and had to say it out loud. That would be worse than them not being prepared and being sanctioned. $200,000. So

Jordan (00:19:05.000)

Zouk Spang, in chess, or whatever it is. Yeah, I learned one thing. Exactly. What kind of what kind of preparation Did you or I suppose I mean, I assume that this type of deposition is a little bit different from the ones that maybe you're used to in a regular, non Infowars setting. Did you do like more preparation for this? Or?

Bill Ogden (00:19:32.000)

Oh, well, I'm pretty prepared on every case. But for this one, specifically, when when Mark came into the case, he came to me because I've been watching Alex Johnson's college and not as necessarily as a fan horse entertainment. And so I he and I had had conversations, you know, in the past about and he was like, Hey, you want to? You want to do this with him? Like absolutely no question to ask. And so my first job out I may partner I think, during this case, like two years ago, but I was an associate when it first came in. And my first task was like, here's 200 hours worth of video, I need you to watch it in and kind of document everything that goes on. And so like, I started going through it, and I was probably like two or three or four days in, and Mark came into my office and he was like, What are you looking at? And I was like, hey, what about this Gulf of Tonkin thing what Mark was like he markets grain in it, because it the way it happens, this just Spitfire in so much information from so many directions. It really did kind of start messing with my head, I just stopped Mark was like, You got to stop, you gotta take a step away. So it took like, two days off. And I went back into it. I was like, okay, yeah, I'm back.

Dan (00:20:49.000)

Jordan, take a couple couple days off a while back didn't stay

Jordan (00:20:53.000)

did not stick I gave him.

Bill Ogden (00:20:57.000)

Yeah, it was definitely an experience. And Mark was like, kind of concerned, like do did they get to you, like

Dan (00:21:05.000)

you've been bringing snacks.

Bill Ogden (00:21:07.000)

It really is like the the stylistic approach that they use, and just different topics completely that aren't related, that are just getting thrown in your face. It's like, you know, somebody's tossing a bucket of hot dogs into into your face. And they're all just kind of hitting in different areas and bouncing different directions. And so you can't digest it. It's tough. And so instead, you just kind of keep absorbing. Yeah, especially if

Dan (00:21:29.000)

it's like the topic is something scary. That kind of overrides your ability to keep track of like, oh, eight, you just jumped from A to H, what is going on here? And then h back to B and then our x? What's going on? Yeah,

Bill Ogden (00:21:43.000)

yeah. And so. So I did all that documented. So from there, I had a pretty good grasp on the case. And then mark is, you know, just so we're clear marks 100% the smart one of our group, like he's, he's the brains on, you know, I would, I guess I default to the looks, but you know, I'm like a seven, six, if I'm in California,

Dan (00:22:06.000)

so you're aggressive? I think. Yeah, I'm

Bill Ogden (00:22:09.000)

definitely the aggressive one. And, and I don't like taking zoom demos, which are like COVID made those a thing and, and a defense attorney, as a defense attorney asked me one time he said, Why don't you like taking zoom? And I was like, because because I've never lied to your face. And he just looked at me like, why did you lie to me on the phone? I'm not saying anything else. I'm just saying, Why do you stretch your face? And there's a you know, there's so yeah, I'm definitely the the bully of the group, I guess, like when somebody needs to, you know, when a bully needs to get, you know, humbled, I guess I'm the person that comes in and, and takes care of Mark and Mark can do it. And he does it in a in a very articulate way. And he's smart enough to maneuver you into it. You don't even know you're hurting your case, by the time you're saying your answer, where I'm just asking it in a way that is impossible for you to answer. And you're like,

Jordan (00:23:02.000)

Oh, you're the destroyer? destroyer?

Bill Ogden (00:23:06.000)

Right. Right. So yeah, if the double net I'm not the not cut destroyer. Right,

Jordan (00:23:12.000)

exactly. And I think I think probably

Dan (00:23:14.000)

to like that, being in the room, you know, being in person as opposed to over zoom. Like, there's so many of those other aspects, like what you mentioned, of like, you're sitting at the head of this table, you have that camera in front of you and other people are in the room. Like I imagine that's just like a completely different vibe than it is.

Bill Ogden (00:23:32.000)

It really is. There's an intensity to it. And to which I thrive in because, you know, I have no problem just staring someone down with eye contact, dead silent. It's awkward. I know it. They know. They're like, what do I do? And so then they'll try to, you know, make a noise to fill that void. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, let's sit in this enjoy this. This is

Dan (00:23:55.000)

you're describing like the Errol Morris philosophy of like filmmaking, you know, just make people stare at a camera. And eventually they'll say something that they shouldn't.

Bill Ogden (00:24:05.000)

Exactly. And so like, I use my, my techniques of kind of, So Wes Ball and Kyle Farah started our firm when they were like 31 or 32. And they were, you know, rolled the dice. They took all the risks. They they were fantastic lawyers and so

Jordan (00:24:23.000)

many years, so many years. You're fine. You're doing great.

Bill Ogden (00:24:26.000)

I'm there about 10 years, everybody's 10 years older than me. Mark West Kyle, you know, and David at the firm are all they're older. And so I came in and I had the benefit of one riding their coattails. They were already super successful. I didn't have to sweat a line of credit it whether or not I could pay employees like they did all the hard work. And so I got the benefit of learning under them. And so I just took certain aspects from each of the lawyers that I could and kind of molded it into my own little little stylistic approach to it, and it's I feel like it's been pretty successful. So Are you gonna ask? I guarantee kitten Olympics. So

Dan (00:25:04.000)

which of which of those other partners taught you about snack preparation?

Bill Ogden (00:25:09.000)

So that's actually what's ball. It's not necessarily snack, you'd actually probably have been pissed. Like if I was an associate and I pulled out a bag of gummy bears during the deposition. But I making making people uncomfortable when you're asking them uncomfortable questions, makes them just want it to end. So they give you whatever they they know what you want. And if they're uncomfortable, they're just going to give it rather than playing this line of things where they ask your question again, I don't understand what you're asking that kind of thing. And so yeah, Jordan, what you can see on the depots is I put a giant stop at buches, which is a very famous gas station. It's the size of a Walmart in Texas. And they're kind of there's one right between Houston and Austin, stopping by this giant bag of gummy worms. And so like during the dapper I just opened them up while they're asking questions, you know, like, hold it up to the light, like, eat it. And like I use it as an insult. And then I'll look over the witness and they're just staring at my hands. They're, you know, looking at this gummy bear and um, you know, I'm just chowing down on him. It actually the one thing that was bad was

Jordan (00:26:19.000)

like Daniel, Southern accent and that 100%. So I actually stole

Bill Ogden (00:26:25.000)

that from a, there's a real famous criminal defense lawyer in Texas, very famous, and he would take a paperclip, while the the other side was doing their opening statement, and he would slowly make straighten it all the way out. And this was back when you could smoke indoors, you know, cigs inside, that's what I think that's what Frank guys call it these days. But he would take a straight paperclip, and then he would slide it down the the cigarette and he would light it, and then he would smoke it in the the the ash wouldn't fall. And so the jury would just stare at that instead of paying attention to the other side's opening statement, because they're waiting for this long cigarette ash to drop and it doesn't and he's just, you know, going at it. And I heard that story one time, I was like, oh, that's kind of cool to do. And so I kind of, that's where it started. And then I incorporated the awkwardness into it.

Dan (00:27:18.000)

I feel like that that cigarette trick that's like sleight of hand. Yeah, ring with people's attention. Whereas, like, the gummy bears just aggressive. Like that's just like, it's medicine.

Bill Ogden (00:27:30.000)

You know, I'm I'm so comfortable that I'm like, This is not uncomfortable for me it is you're dying inside.

Dan (00:27:40.000)

It would be very threatening.

Jordan (00:27:42.000)

I mean, it's it's funny now. But if if I was in a room with you while you were doing that, God, I would just call you a prick nonstop like it wouldn't I wouldn't be able to answer a question. I just be like, can

Dan (00:27:52.000)

you get this prick to stop eating these fucking worms. But imagine a scenario where you can't do that. Yeah, exactly. To answer questions, well, then I'm in trouble,

Jordan (00:27:59.000)

right? And you're

Bill Ogden (00:28:00.000)

just sitting there dying inside watching me snack in. There's two things. One, you're thinking how disrespectful or to God, I wish you'd give me one. And so either way, it's not good for you.

Jordan (00:28:13.000)

I think you asked for a WM or is that against the law?

Dan (00:28:15.000)

I think you'd probably be

Bill Ogden (00:28:18.000)

Oh, no, that would be best case scenario for me. Because if they asked me for a gummy worm, I go, I only brought enough for one knowing it's a mouthful for

Jordan (00:28:27.000)

God's sakes just to let it as a power out of a bit.

Bill Ogden (00:28:33.000)

I'm always looking for everybody, most people avoid the awkwardness. And I'm there to create it and live in it. So that like when someone gets awkward, you learn a lot about that person. So when you're meeting, you can get a good read on to somebody with how they react to something that's uncomfortable. And so I I try to make people uncomfortable very quickly in a depo not in a bad way just to put them on their toes. See how they react to that I can then kind of morph my questions into a more impactful way.

Jordan (00:29:01.000)

Right? You're like, what if Jigsaw was a lawyer instead?

Bill Ogden (00:29:04.000)

Exactly. Yeah. But yeah, it's like, what if Jigsaw just didn't kill people? Yeah, it was just like, it was like an escape room. But

Jordan (00:29:12.000)

he lets you hang yourself too. I mean, it's the same basic principle. And that's the idea.

Dan (00:29:18.000)

The Oh, and deposition actually does start with would you like to play?

Bill Ogden (00:29:24.000)

Oh, and it's the I've been watching Oh, and for a while, because, you know, he's like, Oh, watch. We own these lives at this march or this protest. And I'm thinking to myself, This guy is not that smart. He's just going and finding those are the best clips he's got from everybody he spoke to so as soon as Heslin that Heslin case came in. I called dibs on Owen from day, three, four years ago. And Mark was like 100% you can have it he was like why? And I was like, because we're roughly the same age. And I want him to feel what other people feel like when he doesn't do them.

Dan (00:29:57.000)

And so like the urge to bully the bully Yeah. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Bill Ogden (00:30:01.000)

It's like, oh, let me show you how it's done when you when you meet your match here, and the best part was, I found a video the night before of him at the Woman's March in DC and he was wearing Trump garb. And, and a lot of people were saying like, Oh wouldn't have, could you be out here wearing a Trump scarf, you know, support and say you support women. He's like, Oh, I support all the women that were sexually trafficked at the Epstein Island, which I was like, okay, I can get behind that, you know, mutual ground. And then they're like, Yeah, but y'all, you know, Infowars is bad. And he's like, name one. Trump accuser. If Trump is so bad name, one woman's name, that's an accuser. And these people just couldn't and, and he's like, yeah, so you can't even name one name. So you're not even informed. And so I heard that and I was like, Oh, God, I was like, alright, so during the Depo, I straight up just ask them like, Can you name do you know the name of Mr. Heslin? Son? Do you know, Can you name one child? Do you can unite. And I just started to ask him, he's like, No, it's like, you can, like let's watch this clip. So I play the clip of him doing it to other people. And at the end, it was so unnecessary for me to do I was like, you see kind of how I got my question format there. And he just looks at me on the record. He goes, I tip my hat to you on that one. Because it's like at least you understand what was happening like he knew I just got railed.

Dan (00:31:29.000)

That's awareness inside the room, you know, like being able to get to that place.

Jordan (00:31:37.000)

British excuse me, so I believe I have been hoisted upon my own petard.

Dan (00:31:45.000)

To is like imagining that these people that he's talking to in a video that you found, what if they hosted a show where they complained about Trump accusers? And still couldn't name one? You know, that's the that's the thing. That's, that's even more offensive than what makes your example even more egregious, I think. Yeah.

Bill Ogden (00:32:04.000)

So he, I will say this from you know, since we haven't gotten into some of the specifics, I walked into Owens depo thinking he was a bad guy. And I could see in his face, the more we talked about what happened and how we got to here and how wrong all the shit was that he said he was having an epiphany of, of anger, not towards us or towards the plaintiffs, but towards his staff and towards the company. And at the end, when I said, you know, if Mr. Heslin or Miss Lewis was in the room right now, what would you say? And he was remorseful. He was sorry, he was the only one. And he walked out of there. And I was like, god dammit, I wanted to hate you more than I do right now. And it's not fair. But I really do appreciate you doing what you did, and in saying what he did and so he walked away from that. I get his position. Now he's stuck. What's he supposed to do? He knows know nobody else is gonna hire you know,

Dan (00:33:03.000)

a carwash would deserve to be immediate. Exactly as

Bill Ogden (00:33:10.000)

I'm not sure a carwash in Liberal Austin would hire

Dan (00:33:16.000)

goes by John or whatever is real first name is and maybe. I don't know that.

Jordan (00:33:21.000)

Yeah, he definitely reinvent his life somewhere in Nebraska. Sure. It's a great place for him.

Bill Ogden (00:33:27.000)

Omaha is nice during like,

Jordan (00:33:30.000)

oh, I wouldn't let him in a city. He's got to be very quiet. And by himself small town. Yeah. Population one.

Dan (00:33:36.000)

Well, I mean, he's from my home state of Missouri. And so like, you know, he's not I'll say it. I've been butchering it this whole time. Some people do. It's Missouri, but like, well, I'm

Bill Ogden (00:33:46.000)

saying people from there. Like, that's something that's funny. You brought that up, because I'm always like, Hey, can I ask the question? Why do we call it Germany? When people from Germany call it Deutschland? Anybody anybody's like Well, it's because they're running

Unknown Speaker (00:34:01.000)

your mill where you live?

Dan (00:34:03.000)

Yeah, that's that's actually a kind of a bone of contention of people in Missouri. There's the Missouri people and then the Missouri pureland it's I mean,

Jordan (00:34:11.000)

you know, I mean of a war It is ironic but yes, that was the state divided over the civil those those fight over something. Yeah.

Bill Ogden (00:34:21.000)

Um, but yeah, either way, like, oh, in Zina, he walked out of there and he was he was the only one only witness that's walked out besides maybe kid that was actually sorry. And I don't know what they're sorry, because of how the Depo went. Or they were just that was the first time anybody had actually given them all the facts. Because there was a lot of stuff both of them had no idea they're like, wait, what?

Dan (00:34:42.000)

Well, I definitely more inclined to agree with that about kid watching his deposition. I do think there's a lot he didn't know many things that we'll get into over the course of the episode. He shockingly doesn't know about, oh, and I think knows a bit more. But the other the other problem too that I have is like you Yeah, he may not have another choice. But if he recognize, like if Oh, and recognizes how bad this stuff is that he's involved in, and continues to do it, that's worse. Like, if you watch his show, now he's doing the same stuff, maybe not. He's

Bill Ogden (00:35:14.000)

just very safe. He's just making sure nobody's names and nobody, I'm not identifying groups. He's safe with what he does. And he is a true believer to an extent on that. But when he talked about Sandy Hook once, and it just happened to be the one time within the statute limitations that brought them in. And he'd only been at the company a couple months, when he did it. I think somebody was just like, hey, new kids say this. And since then, he was on a bunch of other nonsense, but But yeah, he at the time, I don't fault him necessarily for that. And watching his show, I did not think he was gonna be remorseful. I just thought he was just hanging out the cost of doing business, but what I do

Dan (00:35:58.000)

yeah, he because he seems like it'd be more brash, but like what

Bill Ogden (00:36:01.000)

he did, and he on air, he's, you know, in his interviews and all this, you know, all this videos that he posts, he is very brash. But when he gets into a serious moment, he's Yeah, I mean, he's just a little kid.

Dan (00:36:14.000)

Yeah, the what you're describing about him and like, you wanted to hate him more at the end of the the deposition was definitely kind of how I felt about Paul Joseph Watson's deposition.

Bill Ogden (00:36:26.000)

Paul, Joseph Watson at all, Paul, Joseph Watson, he saw it, he saw the writing on the wall, you know, totally, what the stop doing is, what the fuck are we doing? This is bad. This looks, this looks horrible for all of us. It's gonna give us this reputation. Yeah. And you can see from that email, he splits and he starts doing his own thing, because he's doesn't, you know, he's not going down at that ship.

Dan (00:36:48.000)

Well, I mean, he has his feet in both sort of boats, as it were, you know, like, he has his own thing. And as much as he's doing, like, his own YouTube channel, and like, it's kind of separate, but he's also still hosting Infowars sometimes, and, you know, he's still very closely connected. He's still like, the main editor of the site. And what have you, he

Bill Ogden (00:37:08.000)

he will, I will say this, he, he does have some sort of moral compass. And he read he knows right and wrong, which not. And that's weird to say about, you know, adults. But the Lopez case has showed me this case it showed me, you know,

Jordan (00:37:24.000)

well, I mean, you have to kind of be a psychopath to work at Info Wars. So it doesn't make sense. That way, right and wrong would be a rare ability.

Bill Ogden (00:37:35.000)

It's, it's funny, because, you know, as much as they're like, Oh, we're not sheep. We don't just follow what you know. Dr. Fauci says. But all the employees are just shooting them out.

Dan (00:37:44.000)

I just said when Alex told me to, yeah.

Bill Ogden (00:37:48.000)

He told me to put that he told me like kits kit. Oh, God, when that course we have kit for swing is such shit right now at work, I'm sure because he's some of his answers were horrific for him his career wise, because he was like, I'm like, Why did you put this here? He's like,

Dan (00:38:06.000)

Alex Jones just told me to put that. And I'm like, Oh, well, we could just say matory.

Bill Ogden (00:38:12.000)

Yeah, I'm like, oh. And then I asked him, I was like, in what? You know, Alex is your boss. Like, what he says, you know, you kind of gotta go with it. He's like, Oh, yeah, I'm like, Oh, no.

Dan (00:38:26.000)

As I recall, there's a couple of times you were like, Alex is not gonna like that answer.

Jordan (00:38:34.000)

You gotta live by

Bill Ogden (00:38:42.000)

Yeah, so I'll just say like, oh, that's, he is not gonna like that answer. He said, it's way different is and there you can see their their face. Like, no,

Dan (00:38:52.000)

there's something so awful about, like being in a room being questioned by somebody who has like, sort of the freedom or whatever to just like, you know, the trap has been set. You have stepped in it. And then you're just like, Oh, that was a trap.

Bill Ogden (00:39:07.000)

Yeah, yeah. Because I know, like, I knew the trap was there, right? I'm setting it up. They have no idea. Then they say it in sometimes like, kid he doesn't even know he stepped like the tracks there. He steps in it. He's just dangling. And I'm like, Yeah, this is a trap. And he's like, Oh, shit,

Unknown Speaker (00:39:24.000)

what a trap.

Jordan (00:39:25.000)

I'm amazed. Whenever we've watched all these depositions, I am just shocked that these people aren't constantly going like oh, shit tricked again. Like it is over and over and over again, where afterwards they go, ah, like, it's just it's a break. They're stepping on the same rake over and over and over again. It's insane.

Bill Ogden (00:39:48.000)

Exactly, exactly. They it's definitely one and regardless of who the lawyer is tough to get some of these individuals prepped whatsoever. I don't I don't Think prep is the problem I think it's something else but

Dan (00:40:03.000)

Johnnie Cochran couldn't help people.

Bill Ogden (00:40:07.000)

Right? He's it's, that's a it's definitely a tall order to try and say, Oh yeah, I'll prep these guys in a full day a full day of PrEP is a lot of prep.

Dan (00:40:19.000)

Robert Barnes in their corner

Bill Ogden (00:40:20.000)

hobby barn Bobby bottleservice.

Jordan (00:40:23.000)

Work doesn't get much better.

Bill Ogden (00:40:26.000)

Yeah, he so I was the one that kind of broke him in the second No, the first Rob do Dubbo where he just goes off the handle. And he's like, you know, what, Mr. Banks, it's laughing and all this stuff. And you guys need to just cut all the unprofessionalism. You know, what I'm asking for, it's not unreasonable. And he just blew his lid, and I knew he had a fuse, I just want to see how far I need to burn it. And so once he did, I looked at him as calmly as I could. And I just said, I'm not even going to comment on the reasonableness of what you just said. And I just left it there. And you could see him just cool. And I knew that's when we when when he was probably going to be exiting the case

Dan (00:41:08.000)

of poker back with like, hey, why don't you do an interview with Stefan Molyneux?

Bill Ogden (00:41:13.000)

Do Right, right. But yeah, these demos have definitely been fun. It it, it, it kind of gave Mark and I it brought us back to our roots and showed us like, this is why we do this. Because this is this was this case was taken on we call it a hobby case. But it's not like a hobby. It's we brought it on because the money doesn't we don't care about the money, right? We make we're successful. And all sorts of you know, I've got some civil rights cases and some big industrial accidents in the auto defects, we've we've made money. So each lawyer brings on a case at any given time that they want to do for the right reasons. And that's why we brought this one on. And that's why I give all the credit to Weston Kyle, because they have never told us No. And I've never said you know, hey, watch your spending or anything. They're just like, hey, Google, how about it? If you guys need help, let us know. I'd love to come in. And so they've been great with that. So when that's when we brought this in, we started taking these steps. And it was fun. Again, it wasn't worth it was like we're looking like I'm not prepping. I'm like thoroughly trying, like invested in and being as prepared as I can. Because we just wanted to destroy these this testimony. Well,

Dan (00:42:29.000)

I have to imagine that after you start doing these depositions, you start to see the level of sort of, you could call it unpreparedness or disrespect that's being shown by these defendants and like that's got to kind of be invigorating in some ways, or at least freeing.

Bill Ogden (00:42:47.000)

It is mainly because so it happens all the time. In all cases,

Dan (00:42:51.000)

not like this though, right?

Bill Ogden (00:42:56.000)

Yeah, first of all, we've never everybody always, you know, 36 it's not uncommon to do a motion for sanctions. It's not uncommon to seek a default because this is so egregious, but you know, deep down inside there, you're no way are you ever getting a default. Until now, in these cases of these cases have just they literally have kind of they kind of screwed me moving forward. Because no matter I'm not going to be so hard on defense counsel anymore. Because I'm just in my head I'm gonna say could have been worse. I've seen

Dan (00:43:30.000)

way worse. You're no Barnes. So yeah,

Bill Ogden (00:43:33.000)

you're I'm that's, you know, you were wrong. But you're not that bad. Because I when I first started I had I was the youngest I had a chip on my shoulder and I was just like, let's go I'm about to start a bunch of forest fires no matter what even if it's unnecessary. I'm here to start wars with the other side. You were 2016 Owen

Dan (00:43:53.000)

Shroyer?

Bill Ogden (00:43:54.000)

Right exactly. A little bit of this urge Reuter still, he has not some of us grow some of the stuff and and then I got older and I started you know, being a little bit you know, Hey, you don't have to be this aggressive, and and all that. And then I got to this case, I was like, Oh, here we go. Let's do it. I forgot what this felt like.

Dan (00:44:15.000)

Yeah, y'all are hungry.

Jordan (00:44:17.000)

I was back whenever I was a stand up. You know, if you had a run of really bad shows, and you just weren't doing well. You just couldn't you just kept sucking. There were a couple of rooms that are that were notoriously easy to get really big laughs Rob and that's where you would go to like, reinvigorate yourself, you know that like I yeah, I am funny, that kind of thing. If I can make it it really does feel like this is where you're at, you know, like, oh, all these real cases are fucking hard. You know, I gotta fight that and this I just get to come in and fucking beat up on. I mean, what it amounts to children.

Dan (00:44:53.000)

Yeah. Suing Alex Jones or being the plaintiff's attorney for Alex Jones is like going to the ship Oh, yes, exactly. That's the name of things like if I get

Bill Ogden (00:45:03.000)

if I get an airbag airbag defect case, right? And I get 15 gigabytes of documents sent over to my office, there's nothing exciting about it. I did 15 gigs from Info Wars, I'm like, where do we? Where do we start? I really hope there's no child porn. And like, that's because that's happened that they was child pornography in some of their discovery. Not in our case, that was in the Connecticut case, but it was just, you know, the stuff that the documents they do have, are just, we only get about 15% of the craziness that is, is given to them or that they send to each other, like, a lot of stuff doesn't come out. And so when we get to see some of them are like Jesus, yeah, this is it is fascinating to see how the inner workings of something like this far.

Dan (00:45:55.000)

Yeah, one of the things that really stuck out to me from the two depositions went over last time was the comprehensive background check on Leonard Posner, that was just weirdly in their files. Like that's

Bill Ogden (00:46:07.000)

where it came from it just, you know, fell out of your hair that way. Is that here? No, like, no, it fell out of your hair

Dan (00:46:12.000)

that way. Yeah, that was a mareel.

Bill Ogden (00:46:17.000)

That and then posting, you know, the honor networks, Pio box, that's the stuff that pisses us off. And that's why we're like, okay, you know, I'm not in any way going to even pretend to be nice in the beginning and some of this. And so that that was the initial motivation. And then once we started getting into it, it was just at this point, it's like, I'm going to enjoy what I'm about to do to you as a person. And I'm actually a nice guy. But if now when I'm punching the timecard I'm like, to be an asshole. walking to work.

Dan (00:46:49.000)

Arctic in some way. Yeah.

Jordan (00:46:52.000)

Is it's like going to a break room.

Bill Ogden (00:46:54.000)

And Mark and I, you know, fully invested in this case, we would sometimes lose sight of, you know, because we're so focused on doing what we're doing. And we're we are enjoying, and then we'd have to, we sit down together for a meeting and talk about what we're doing next. And we when we started talking about trial, we realized like Jesus, this is actually going to be a very emotional trial. And it's going to be a very, you know, there's not going to be any humor in the trial. Yeah. And so we have not invited, right, yeah. Because you, there will be moments where you're like, please let me say something. Or just laugh. Yeah, it is. And, and so, you know, the clients have been fantastic. They are some of the bravest people we've I've ever met. And, and Mark Mark is extremely close with that he's closer with all of them. I'm, you know, I started off as kind of the workhorse. So I was behind the scenes, doing all the stuff,

Dan (00:47:57.000)

watching all the garbage videos. God,

Bill Ogden (00:47:59.000)

it's so many. It's so many more than you think. Like, when I say 200 hours of video, it's 200 hours of work should be 1000 hours, right? It's because everything's so scattered out. And there's no, there's no real plan,

Dan (00:48:13.000)

at least like a third of it is commercials.

Bill Ogden (00:48:17.000)

The commercials. So Elizabeth Williamson is a writer at The New York Times. And as soon as we filed this case, she was like, she contacted us and said, I want to fly down and just follow y'all around for a couple days. And we're like, sure, yeah, New York Times you can do that. But we didn't think well, we didn't know we had zero media training. And so step one was like, alright, lunchtime. Let's go to El tiempo, which is, that's where we ate Mexican food in Houston. And oh, I don't know if you actually got el tiempo. Very strong margaritas. And so we got hammered with a reporter. And we said all this stuff you're not supposed to say to the media. And so I realized that about an hour in and I'm like, Miss Williamson. If this is going to turn into a hit piece, I just want you to know, you have full authority to lie and embellish because if it's going to be bad, I want to be like Wolf of Wall Street. She's just like me, she's like, No one has ever said that to me before. I was like, I just want you to know because I realized we've said a lot of stuff. No one said off the record at all guys. I'm like looking like everyone's having that epiphany. She's like, No, you guys are fine, y'all. Y'all been great. But she

Dan (00:49:27.000)

bartenders should really do that for you like that. Say this is off the record. Yeah, they should every box

Jordan (00:49:33.000)

every bartender should have like a journalist credential that they have to check and yeah, they have to do the whole thing. I like it.

Bill Ogden (00:49:40.000)

I'm gonna open a bar called off the rack. And, but she she just published a book a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, it's a sandy hook. And in that she interviewed me kind of right when I was really digging into the videos. And she was like, What are you getting out of it? And I just watched one and I was like, honestly, I'm really involved. I'm really into these combat wipes. Because she looked at me she's like, What are they? And I was like, I mean, if you break it down, it's just baby wipes for a bunch of middle aged Caucasian men that are camping out in the woods with some friends calling themselves a militia. And she put it in the book.

Dan (00:50:20.000)

yourself with your friends, hunting knife, then wipes,

Jordan (00:50:23.000)

these are bad wipes. Yeah.

Bill Ogden (00:50:26.000)

Keep yourself fresh down there when you're with all your militia. With that was like cheat that's in my intro of the book. And I was just like, this is one, I'm wearing that as a badge of honor for the rest of my life. And to, I could have been more professional in that interview. But

Dan (00:50:43.000)

with that, watching all those videos and having that, like you said, you watched Alex from when you were like in college, as entertainers 911,

Bill Ogden (00:50:52.000)

and JFK, and, you know, our, our human hybrid amphibians, you know, real, it was, you know, every in my generation, you know, Facebook came to my college my freshman year, and that we used to you had to have a.edu email address to have faith

Dan (00:51:12.000)

that Facebook doesn't yet the fate of Facebook,

Bill Ogden (00:51:15.000)

I will never forget, we all promised we would never forget the and so this technological era of news and information and all that was as I was coming of age, and so Alex Jones, I would see different articles or leaks or not leaks, but articles or videos and stuff. And so I'll be watching them and my friends would watch me talk about him. And so I knew exactly who he was a long time ago. And but it was entertainment. And then closer. The closer we got to 2016 election is when he decided, you know, Sandy Hook, he took an extreme story, probably the most egregious extreme story in my lifetime. And then he made it even more extreme right. From there, the closer we got to 2016, he realized if he goes political, he can grow. And he did. The he went when he went right. He exploded. And I mean, for instance, like Infowars had white house press credentials at one point, which is, I mean, I what I said wasn't not true. Right.

Jordan (00:52:25.000)

You falling into our trap fool.

Bill Ogden (00:52:28.000)

Me again. Yeah, I'll have one of those now.

Dan (00:52:37.000)

Was political before it was just that he loved Ron Paul, who was never gonna win. He was

Bill Ogden (00:52:43.000)

the doctor. Yeah, he's the most notorious OB GYN on the planet.

Dan (00:52:48.000)

And the only OB GYN I think, who tried to take over an island nation.

Bill Ogden (00:52:54.000)

You know, everybody has their version of events, right? Yeah. But now he's, uh, he was he was libertarian. And he I mean, he was not a fan of George Bush. No. So much of

Dan (00:53:07.000)

a liberal Yeah.

Bill Ogden (00:53:08.000)

Yeah. Right. Which is funny, because George Bush became governor by saying, yes, that person over there is conservative. I'm more concerned. And then Alex Jones is like, yeah, this crazy lib.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:20.000)

Yeah, this guy's socialist, this guy

Bill Ogden (00:53:24.000)

exploded into 16. And it kind of took it some wings from there.

Dan (00:53:28.000)

Yeah, did that experience like really feel different, though, like watching it and paying attention versus watching it for entertainment, like the content 100%

Bill Ogden (00:53:38.000)

Because you because I'm not watching. I'm not really watching the content as much as I'm breaking down the stylist, the you know, the style of how he's doing it, how he's going into these and planning on how he transitions you notice all of that now. And you realize it's, it's, I'm not gonna say genius, but it was a way that no one had really mastered until him to rapid fire things at someone to where you can ask questions, because there's so much coming at you. And there's so many questions to ask that you just don't have time. Or you forget about something that he said five minutes ago, because you're now talking about something else.

Dan (00:54:20.000)

Yeah, there's, there's a craft to it, that I'm not even positive. He's entirely conscious of what he's doing. But it is there is something to that. But it's really just kind of a debate tactic like overwhelming the person that you're talking to with like, too much stuff and hoping they get flustered. Right. But yeah,

Bill Ogden (00:54:38.000)

I mean, one of our one of our clients was a fan of his Yeah, like, yeah, up until like, Sandy Hook, he's an avid listener of his and then this happened, and, you know, well, let's just say not so much a fan anymore. It's gotta

Dan (00:54:53.000)

it's gotta make you reevaluate whether or not it's good idea to believe Alex about Oklahoma City. and stuff like that you would hope you're on the wrong.

Bill Ogden (00:55:02.000)

Speaking speaking of that, I thoroughly enjoyed asking kid and Oh, in my Tell me one story that y'all have gotten, right? Yeah. And then Owen was like, Oh, it was Gulf of Tonkin. I was like, Okay, anything in the last 20 years?

Dan (00:55:20.000)

They didn't do that.

Bill Ogden (00:55:22.000)

Right. They went back and that was,

Jordan (00:55:25.000)

oh, it was on the ground at the Gulf of Tonkin

Dan (00:55:27.000)

was negative 10 years.

Bill Ogden (00:55:30.000)

I will say this they did. They called Epstein early. Well, ish. They didn't they didn't name him. They just the globalists

Dan (00:55:39.000)

are sex trafficking. Right. But the panic happened in the 90s. They're just ripping up. Yeah.

Bill Ogden (00:55:46.000)

But they called Jussie. Smollett. Or it's just racist.

Jordan (00:55:53.000)

You can't just listen, if you're just a racist all the time, then yes, you're gonna call Jesse Smollett. But that's that's not racism is racism. Racism aside, the way I like this

Bill Ogden (00:56:09.000)

is even in a dark pitch black rooms, and you're throwing darts at the wall, you hit the target every once in a while, right? That's literally what they do is they just, everything's a conspiracy, or everything. It's not what it seems until one time. And, you know,

Dan (00:56:25.000)

yeah, I'll give you that. However they got there. Those were things that they didn't totally end up with something that was wrong. And

Bill Ogden (00:56:35.000)

they didn't get sued for being right.

Jordan (00:56:38.000)

That's the bar. But they could

Dan (00:56:40.000)

not because Jussie Smollett was a public figure. Yeah, we would have been clear when

Bill Ogden (00:56:46.000)

it becomes public figure becomes a lot more did these cases become more difficult because you have a platform to speak for yourself?

Dan (00:56:52.000)

Yeah, that's that moment with the good Daniels when it just like named something you didn't get Ross one. And then it's just like, oh, wait, and it just keeps going. It's painful, painful.

Bill Ogden (00:57:03.000)

Yeah. Rob, dude, the first time it happened, Rob do is do it. And I was like, yeah, just name one. And he's just sitting there. And I was like, this is getting uncomfortable. And I just say it out loud

Bill Ogden (00:57:14.000)

to him. And he says, You're right, man. Horrible.

Dan (00:57:19.000)

Well, I don't want to say under oath. So just in case.

Bill Ogden (00:57:27.000)

Funny because under oath, you know, their whole motto and philosophy at the company is like, you know, if we we get under oath, we'll tell you the truth. We got the stories, and then they get under oath. And they're like, Please don't make me answer that. Yeah, please, for the love of God. Please don't make me answer that question.

Dan (00:57:44.000)

Well, Alex, just the other day was saying that, once it gets to the trial for the Sandy Hook case, he's going to reveal and expose how all the people are making money on Sandy Hook. And all this. Yeah,

Jordan (00:57:56.000)

he's very excited to get on the stand and really defend himself. So

Bill Ogden (00:58:01.000)

I'm excited for a number of things. First of all, when we when when these got filed, and all the media kind of started out immediately on the show was like, oh, Hillary Clinton and George Soros are funding. And the day that that was said, we were all at lunch, and I looked at my phone and I saw it, somebody had sent me a screenshot. And I was like, take a look at this. And I looked at the table, and I was like, Alright, guys, which one of you fuckers has all the money and isn't sharing? Where's the sorrows check? Because I haven't gotten any either

Dan (00:58:32.000)

everyone's phones on the table who has attacked Hillary who's who's holding out it's also funny because

Bill Ogden (00:58:39.000)

Kyle Farah came to a hearing with us. And he stood up in court at one point it because something got played by the defense and that that Soros accusation got thrown out of the house that I was a judge, I had to stand up. I'm a little offended here. I just wanted to, I just want to for the record to be known. I'm funding all of this. And I just want everyone to know, my money.

Dan (00:59:01.000)

I picked up the check.

Bill Ogden (00:59:04.000)

So I don't want anyone getting credit for this except me. I am funding. So if there's any, any power behind us, it's mine.

Dan (00:59:11.000)

It's Well, I'm glad I'm glad we were able to clear up the non sorrows connection.

Bill Ogden (00:59:16.000)

Unless Unless marks peace during a bunch of checks that he hadn't told anybody about. We have not received a cent yet. We did start receiving money and cards of support at the beginning. And every once awhile, we'll still get one. And people just started sending cash and stuff to us. Say hey, this, we want to help with the legal costs. And Mark came in obviously, what do we do with all this and like, almost like donate it. Like he was like, where should we donate it to? I was like, the honor network. He's like, Oh, that's perfect. So like we you know, anytime somebody emails us or says in we're actually very responsive to the people that reached out to us via email or call them you know, just say like, Hey, if you'd like to donate, I really appreciate it, but we don't need it. Don't let just if you want to donate donate to the honor network, because they they're they're a network that targets internet misinformation, and probably

Dan (01:00:08.000)

makes you look more like you're taking Soros money. Yeah,

Bill Ogden (01:00:12.000)

yeah, right. Hey, I will do anything in my power to look more suspicious to Alex.

Jordan (01:00:19.000)

Problem. All right, when you freak them out when your optics are giving money away, clearly that means that Soros is giving you that money to give away obviously, otherwise you wouldn't be able to give that money away. Makes

Bill Ogden (01:00:31.000)

me want to buy one of those little earpieces with the little stretchy cord that like the Secret Service where I want to wear one of those and trial and just look at him and then start talking into my cuff. It'd be great. Somebody's feeding me lines into there. Like, who is that? Who's he talking to?

Dan (01:00:45.000)

It'd be great if in a deposition you had an earpiece, but it was connected to a gummy worm.

Bill Ogden (01:00:49.000)

Right. Right. That would be great. Exactly. Just had it right here and just kind of go and

Jordan (01:00:53.000)

a lit cigarette. Yeah, with a with a paperclip inside. Yep. And then

Bill Ogden (01:00:59.000)

everybody's just looking at me like, hey, that's illegal. Now you can't smoke indoors this lawyer crazy.

Dan (01:01:04.000)

So we should probably wrap this up before too long. I think we're about an hour or so. So. But I want to know if there's anything else that you wanted to cover about the depositions. Anything that like would be a good introductory note. Because we're gonna get into it after after we talk here. So

Bill Ogden (01:01:24.000)

sure. So I would say with the open depo it I, I walked out of that thinking that was bad, way better than I thought it was gonna be. And I had very high expectations for myself. He knew the position he was in. And he was one of the few that didn't even try to fight, at one point kind of threw all the papers in the air and said, Jesus just make this and 201 makes more money than I thought.

Dan (01:01:53.000)

Yeah, their payroll is out of control based on the depositions that I've heard.

Bill Ogden (01:01:58.000)

Yeah. So and then, and then when you get the kit. Early on, I realized, you know, I'm not dealing with the top brass here. He's he, but he is a he's the type of person that doesn't know better than to believe all a lot of this stuff. And so I use that against them. And I would, he would say a sentence and I'd say, Oh, you just use this word. What does that mean? And then he'd give me the debt, the debt, his definition of it. I'm like, Okay, perfect. Let's now apply that to light. And I did it with Oh, and that was that's probably the highlight for me, is when I said, oh, when is Infowars mainstream media? He's like, Absolutely not. I'm like, Okay, what is mainstream media? And then he gives me like, you know, they have been around for a little while, have a reputation. They have corporate advertising, and he gives me like four points. And I'm like, alright, well, what about Breitbart? And he's like, No, I wouldn't say they're mainstream. And I'm like, well, there's four points. And then I realized, as soon as I say that, I realized HOLY SHIT Info Wars, before they were the platform, had all of these things I'm like, let's get back to these four points. Is Info Wars. And he's like, Absolutely not. We're not mainstream media. And I'm like, what about this, this and this? He's like, Well, I that's not just the whole list. And I'm like, Okay, well, what's up? What else is on the list? And he's like, alright, well, you can kind of see what we're doing here. And he's like, we're working on mainstream media.

Bill Ogden (01:03:30.000)

Yeah. So then I, at one point, I got him one point in the debt, but I asked him, I'm like, so let's just agree. You don't even know what mainstream media is? And he's like, yeah, yeah, I don't know what it is. So I'm like Jesus, this is best case scenario for me and Mark sitting there. And he's, when I'm going at it, like he and I work really well together. So we're handing notes and making sure that we're on the same page. But half the time by the time one of us gets done with the note and hands it to the questioner. We've already verbatim said that question. Right. So we can read each other's minds. So big. We've been doing this for a while. And, and so Mark starts writing. And then when that question comes out, I can hear him stop, and I hear him go. And he just kind of has a short because he knows it's coming. Yeah, I don't know. If mark just goes, God, and then it was loud enough to where everyone in the room heard, but he didn't get caught on the record. There's one other time that if you listen closely, you can hear it. And it's during own step. Oh, it's like yeah, I was live on air filling in for Alex, somebody who I don't remember handed me these documents and said, We already got the clips ready to go run the story from zero. And, and I'm like, so you're just a puppet. And he's like, I'm not a puppet. And I'm like, well, a puppet is somebody who conveys a message but someone else has control and Like he's like, Yeah. And I'm like, you're live on air. He's like, Yeah, I'm like, somebody hands you a story. You don't know what's in it. He's like, right. And I'm like, but they do. Yeah. So they have control of anything, right? And then you convey the message he's like, exactly. And I'm like, so you're a puppet. He was like, yeah, yeah, I am a puppet. It just goes to which like, This testimony is not supposed to exist, right? No one's ever supposed to say I'm above it. But this mark just goes on Ron Burgundy. And if you listen, it didn't make the transcript. But if you listen, you can hear it. And I was like, throughout all these depots, regardless of who's questioning the other person is literally they're just eating popcorn watching and trying to hold it down. And there's times where you can't. But But yeah, that's if you listen closely, you can hear the Ron Burgundy. And he wasn't trying to be disruptive or anything. It just had come to him. And he said it very quietly in my ear, and I just look at

Bill Ogden (01:06:00.000)

him. I was like, that's a little loud, buddy. And he was like, was it

Dan (01:06:07.000)

to look for that, like the

Jordan (01:06:08.000)

this is definitely going to be very important to us from here on our

Bill Ogden (01:06:14.000)

own admits, doesn't know what mainstream media is. And I'm a puppet. And yeah, Kate Daniels cries a lot. And, and rightly so. So you know, that's hard to argue with some of the six some of the six or seven hours. That's the That's it. I mean, that's the burly enjoying it? That's the brief

Jordan (01:06:34.000)

description. That's a broad strokes. And now

Dan (01:06:36.000)

we'll get into a couple hours, breakdown of specific or whatever. A bill, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. So such

Bill Ogden (01:06:47.000)

as a policy wonk. I was honored to appear on the show. And I love what you guys do.

Dan (01:06:54.000)

That means a lot. And it was it was great to meet you down in Austin. I hope I may I may make the trip before the trial. So I hope to see you again next month.

Bill Ogden (01:07:03.000)

Absolutely. Take care, guys. gratulations on

Dan (01:07:07.000)

getting married. Congratulations to you and to kick causing.

Bill Ogden (01:07:13.000)

You gotta rewrite your vows on that one.

Jordan (01:07:18.000)

Oh, my God. He's so nice. Yeah,

Dan (01:07:20.000)

what a delight. Thank you, Bill, for coming in and having a little chat with us. Before we get going, and now we will partake in a long, extended session of listening to him question idiot. Yep. That's the plan. So I decided that we're going to start with the kit Daniels deposition, because I think I think we can all agree that if this is the lineup have to no one's the headliner. Oh, yeah. And that is a sad state of affairs, but it's just the reality. So this was a deposition that was taken on February 28, February 17 of this year, and like I said, it has to do with the Parkland shooter Miss identification that Kate put in an Infowars article, where he misidentified the shooter as Marcel Fontaine, who is now suing Infowars. Yeah, I know that Owens probably more famous of a figure and that the Sandy Hook litigation is probably more primary in people's minds. But I've been thinking about it. And I think that this deposition is probably more revealing than many of the others that we've covered. Maybe not more than Daria, but it's up there. And most of what we revealed through darias was the cheese, a weirdo.

Jordan (01:08:25.000)

I mean, I heard the psycho music during during his deposition that

Dan (01:08:30.000)

it was it Yeah, it was diegetic to the scene. Yes. Part of this. Like the revealing nature comes from I'm sorry to say kit seems really dumb. I worry that that sounds harsh now, but I assure you as we go through this, that assessment, I think is going to seem very fair. He doesn't seem to know or understand much, and because of that, he ends up getting himself into really bizarre places while being questioned under oath. Sometimes this dumbness intersects with a level of naivete. And in those places, Kitt doesn't seem like he realizes some of the stuff he's revealing about the inner workings of Infowars, which is wild. Yeah, a lot of that stuff may not be legally problematic, but it's definitely damning in the context of our show and what we cover. There's another aspect of this too, and it's something that Bill kind of touched on, which is that you kind of want to end up liking kit a little bit. He doesn't seem like such a bad guy a lot of the time, and it's clear lack of understanding about basic concept. It triggers a certain amount of pity in the viewer and the listener. Sure, those feelings are fairly complicated and weighed along with a clear awareness that he's been an employee at Infowars for like a decade, and he doesn't deserve the benefit of any doubts. It really makes a bizarre mix of of an experience right? And I think that that's definitely something that I found more interesting than I expected it to be right for someone who is essentially Infowars has its Boo Radley, if you will, well, he's not a franchise. He's a role player. You know, right. Right? I get what you mean. Yeah, he's a you feel complicated things about who read. Exactly, yes, sure. Yes. And yeah, I think there's a lot to a lot to dig here. So let's, let's just jump right in. And we learn right at the beginning. There's obviously like a lot of preliminary conversation in any deposition, talking about past employment, how long have you worked in floors? And we're gonna jump in, where we learn about Daniel salary.

Bill Ogden (01:10:28.000)

Okay, so from May of 2013, to the summer of 2018 year old associate editor,

Kit Daniels (01:10:38.000)

ease proximately that, yes. And then

Bill Ogden (01:10:41.000)

after that, you were promoted to managing editor? Something like that? Yes. When you say something like that? What do you mean? We don't

Kit Daniels (01:10:49.000)

really have a culture at Infowars of job titles.

Bill Ogden (01:10:56.000)

What is the culture at InfoWorld? Info Wars?

Kit Daniels (01:10:59.000)

Well, what I mean, as far as like, some companies, you would have like, Oh, here's your new job title. Maybe it's in writing. But it hasn't necessarily been the case compared to my other positions that other companies

Bill Ogden (01:11:12.000)

when you became managing editor in the summer of 2018, did you receive a raise? No. How much do you currently make

Kit Daniels (01:11:21.000)

anywhere from 75 to 90,000 a year?

Bill Ogden (01:11:28.000)

It's based on the range I assume it's not a salary position.

Kit Daniels (01:11:33.000)

It is a salary position. I think 75 is my base salary. It can go up to 90 based on performance bonuses

Dan (01:11:40.000)

75,000 is high but I think compared to the other salaries we've heard from people who are coming for sure sure. Closer to arrange that I find acceptable

Jordan (01:11:51.000)

Right, right. Well, still bums me out it still bums me out but

Dan (01:11:55.000)

you know it should bum you out is somebody who supports workers is that he got a raise, or you didn't need to raise it raise just the title I responsibilities, probably more work, no raise,

Jordan (01:12:04.000)

I've already sussed out one major issue that I almost like in the back of my mind, no will come up almost constantly. Kit Daniels giving answers that he does not realize are begging questions. You know that like, that's not really the culture we have here at Infowars begs the question, well, what the fuck is the culture at Info Wars? You know, we'll feel like we're gonna go down that pathway a lot

Dan (01:12:27.000)

at risk of Sonic raises the question. We're using that expression, right? Oh, my God. Yeah, I think you're right, though. He does open doors with with answers a bit. And I think that's a dynamic. That is kind of fun. Because I think that bill as a person holding a deposition is the sort who's like, alright, let's walk through that door. Let's

Jordan (01:12:48.000)

go. You opened it, man. It's not even meat. So it leads

Dan (01:12:51.000)

to some pretty interesting exchanges. But so can't make $75,000 a year and possibility of 90. Still scoffing gets bonuses. Okay. And for what he's lying about? Oops, sure. Book. I mean, we wouldn't put it that way. Okay.

Bill Ogden (01:13:07.000)

Did you receive a bonus in 2020 20?

Kit Daniels (01:13:12.000)

That would been last year, correct? I don't know two years ago. Yes, I did. Do you remember what that bonus was? That was probably approximately for the year 12 to 13,000.

Bill Ogden (01:13:23.000)

Seems like the company was doing. The performance of the company was better in 2020 than 2021.

Kit Daniels (01:13:32.000)

Something like that, I would assume. Okay.

Bill Ogden (01:13:34.000)

What about 2019? Do

Kit Daniels (01:13:36.000)

you remember this approximately the same as 2020?

Bill Ogden (01:13:38.000)

Okay, and 80?

Kit Daniels (01:13:42.000)

It's been a while since I've looked at my w two for 2018.

Bill Ogden (01:13:45.000)

But if we wanted to find that information out, it would be in your W two. Yes. Have you ever had a year where you did not receive a bonus? I don't believe so. Are you aware that free speech systems is rough is over, you know, as they stayed in this lawsuit is over $50 million in

Kit Daniels (01:14:03.000)

debt? No, I wasn't aware of that.

Bill Ogden (01:14:06.000)

Do you think people should be getting bonuses if that's the actual real debt?

Kit Daniels (01:14:11.000)

I wouldn't be the person to make that judgment.

Bill Ogden (01:14:13.000)

If you were running a company that was that indebted? Would you be giving bonuses to people? Possibly not.

Dan (01:14:20.000)

So there's there's a there's a jocular ness to possibly not. So of all the people that I've heard deposed. Kitt is the only person who I don't feel furious about when I hear him talk about his salary. The rest of these people are outrageous hacks and make way too much and don't get me wrong kid is a hack too, but he's making under six figures right now, I don't know why that's a dividing line. For whatever reason, I can see an argument for someone like him being worth a decent salary because honestly, without the people who run the site and manage the articles that go up, there would be no way the show could exist. Alex can't curate that shit himself. And if you were forced to report on articles without tailor made headlines for him to yell about his show suffer from that. The people who write the articles and who repost other outlets articles with New headlines are really the backbone of what makes Alex's show function. And with Paul Joseph Watson doing a lot less of that heavy lifting in the past few years, someone like Kip probably does have real value. Compare what someone like him brings to the table to someone like Owen or Harrison, I think you would rather have kid around just about any day.

Jordan (01:15:23.000)

Yeah, I'm, I'm, I've been, you know, I don't like that he's paid as much as he is. But relatively speaking, I think he needs to unionize in order to get a better contract for himself. Because there's no way that Harrison Smith should be making that much more than him. No, no,

Dan (01:15:37.000)

I would pay Oh, and like 15 an hour. That's a respectable way maybe. And even though I'm philosophically opposed to them, I would offer Harrison I wouldn't give him anything past an unpaid internship. The thing that I find really interesting about this clip, and so many other moments in this deposition is the clear information based power imbalance between the lawyer and the person being deposed. Ken has no idea that Infowars is deeply in debt. Later, Owen is going to talk about how he has no idea what archives or databases the company keeps, and no one told him that he received a court order for discovery in this case. This is because Infowars is a deeply compartmentalised workplace. Alex keeps so much information from the people who work there, you can see folks being completely caught off guard to hear these kinds of revelations in a deposition setting. And that's for this debt. I'm not really sure how much of this is just normal for a business, right? Yeah, but it seems pretty high. Yeah. Alex sucks at business. So I could see him being really deep in the soup. But I don't know what the fuller picture of this is. Until Until more information comes out. But taken at face value, it's obviously surprising to kit. Sure. And it sounds bad. Yeah.

Jordan (01:16:43.000)

I mean, avip, just a quibble with Bill is just like, you know, I think the employees should be treated regardless of whether or not the owners of the company have fucked up and gotten themselves $50 million in debt. So I'm saying

Dan (01:16:57.000)

I think I think in an ideal world, that would be maybe a business function. $50 million, maybe true. Something like Alex, there

Jordan (01:17:08.000)

is something as a real politic to it. Yes.

Dan (01:17:11.000)

So Kitt is asked about like, this, the dynamics of how, like an article gets published. So like you, you publish this yourself right, you were able to hit the button and publish it. Gotcha.

Bill Ogden (01:17:24.000)

And exhibit one. Okay. Do you recognize it? Yes, I do. Tell us what it is.

Kit Daniels (01:17:31.000)

This is a rolling update article I wrote in February 14 2018. Regarding the breaking news on the Florida shooting,

Bill Ogden (01:17:44.000)

when you say the Florida shooting, you mean the Parkland? Yes. Florida high school shooting? Yes. Who published the story? I did. Did anybody help? You know, from when you write a story and publish it, you have the ability to upload it to the website, you're on your own? Yes. Google has that capability.

Kit Daniels (01:18:10.000)

The writers that I just mentioned, except Dan Lyman usually submits his stories for one of the staff writers to publish for him.

Bill Ogden (01:18:18.000)

We don't trust you, as the managing editor have to put eyes on every story that goes up. That is

Kit Daniels (01:18:25.000)

my practice. Is that a requirement? It's not necessarily a requirement, but it's something I do in practice. Have you always done that? No. Why not? It's just kind of something that after all these lawsuits and litigation, I kind of decided for myself that that was something I needed to do to take more responsibility.

Dan (01:18:49.000)

I think most people would hear this and just move along. But I think it's nuts. I think they're just wild. This clip is probably the only time in any of these depositions that I've heard someone expressed that in response to all of the lawsuits Infowars is facing that they decided they needed to do a better job.

Jordan (01:19:04.000)

It was yeah, no, I was I was just I was like, Wait, hold on.

Dan (01:19:08.000)

Mind blown.

Jordan (01:19:08.000)

Are you saying that you saw a problem took responsibility and then changed your behavior that fucking blows my mind?

Dan (01:19:15.000)

Yeah, that's a really basic thing for normal people. Right? It's a super low bar to clear but for Infowars employees, that's, that deserves a standing ovation, you know, my jaws on the floor. To be clear, since this point kit has not done a better job. And the articles that go up on the website are still totally full of bullshit. True. He has the he has the ability to recognize that he needs to better I'm going to assume that he has a problem with follow through or maybe he has a boss that needs him to do a bad job to keep the company in business. But I applaud this impulse on a very basic one. I really do. I think the evidence shows that it doesn't really make a difference at all, but impressive all the same, I think

Jordan (01:19:52.000)

yeah, you know, it is about what you do and not about what you say but doing something like saying this is so unreal. You'll for an Info Wars employee discounts

Dan (01:20:02.000)

it. This is sort of touching on a little bit of that naivete I mentioned because like in this setting, it doesn't behoove you to say something like that. No, no, absolutely. It makes you look like a better more rational human. Yeah. But it doesn't help you with the deposition. No, and it's not good defense, let's say, ya

Jordan (01:20:20.000)

know, your your best defense at Infowars is pretending you've never heard of Infowars site.

Dan (01:20:26.000)

What is moral?

Jordan (01:20:27.000)

What are you saying words wise?

Dan (01:20:30.000)

So there's a interesting through line, I'll say, in this in this entire exchange, the entire four hour deposition, it pops back up, it rears its head. And that is are you a journalist? What is a journal?

Jordan (01:20:48.000)

What do you do?

Dan (01:20:49.000)

Right? And so right. Kitt has called himself a journalist in the past, but he realizes he realized he made a big mistake. So he addresses that here,

Bill Ogden (01:20:58.000)

when you publish an article who does the research for it?

Kit Daniels (01:21:04.000)

If it's an article I'm doing typically, myself, okay.

Bill Ogden (01:21:08.000)

What's your training in journalism?

Kit Daniels (01:21:10.000)

I took some classes in. Well, first off, I've used the word journalism, maybe out of ignorance before I kind of see myself more as a social commentator. Since when I think my whole force has been more about social commentator,

Bill Ogden (01:21:29.000)

when did know when did you start lawsuit characterizing yourself as a social commentator?

Kit Daniels (01:21:36.000)

I think I started reading some Glenn Greenwald articles the past couple of months and kind of made me realize the way he approaches things is a lot different than the way I approach things.

Jordan (01:21:46.000)

I know what's

Dan (01:21:49.000)

cool the kids been reading Greenwald lately, as opposed to the other points in his career. That's gonna say, that's not true. I think that kid probably learned about him from appearances on Tucker. That's what I would have said, that would make sense. Another interesting thing to point out is that all of these people say that they don't consider themselves that much of journalists, and they're more into social commentary. I don't think they really change as much. But it's so consistent in these depositions that I think there must have been a company meeting Yeah, has to have been something like we can't claim that we're journalists. That opens up a box of worms, we don't want to open so we can rely on just being like, I'm just saying shit.

Jordan (01:22:25.000)

Yeah, no. social commentator is definitely Barnes or Pattis. Conversation,

Dan (01:22:31.000)

it feels like something that is useful to appear to have less responsibility. Yeah, but I don't know if it helps. Yeah, no. So the the intersection of like, Are you a journalist, I may have said I was in the past kind of thing, right leads to what I would describe as a weird who's on first routine.

Kit Daniels (01:22:52.000)

What are you that's the thing that I even when I first started in fours, it is very confusing. So I understand your frustration with the two it specs get this?

Bill Ogden (01:23:02.000)

This, maybe this will be easier. What's the difference between you and a journalist?

Kit Daniels (01:23:07.000)

I don't go out and talk to sources like one on one. Like, I'm not gonna go get a news tip from somebody and talk to him on signal.

Bill Ogden (01:23:14.000)

Let me ask you this. Did you go out to a Bernie Sanders protest and talk to people? Yes, those are sources true.

Kit Daniels (01:23:22.000)

I don't know if I call them sources, I'll just kind of give them an opportunity to vent their frustrations with what was going on.

Bill Ogden (01:23:28.000)

So you were there as a therapist? Right, you're interviewing people for information correct?

Kit Daniels (01:23:34.000)

What their opinions were about the matter.

Bill Ogden (01:23:36.000)

And then you took what you gathered from those sources of information, and then you wrote articles or made videos.

Kit Daniels (01:23:43.000)

I don't remember right.

Bill Ogden (01:23:44.000)

Okay, let me finish my question. Sorry.

Dan (01:23:47.000)

Okay. I just

Jordan (01:23:49.000)

wow. Oh, boy. So

Dan (01:23:53.000)

for people that you report it right.

Jordan (01:23:58.000)

So here's where here's where I feel like social commentator falls apart is that they feel like it's more honest than journalist right. But it's still a hiding behind something like what they should just say is like, guess I'm a professional asshole. I am addict to people and their reaction is what we

Dan (01:24:17.000)

sell. Have you ever heard that Dennis Leary song? Exactly.

Jordan (01:24:20.000)

I'm an asshole. That's what we do, man. And then I feel like people would be like, Well, I mean, that's probably about as accurate as you're gonna get. Yeah,

Dan (01:24:27.000)

I don't. I feel like it would be tougher for a lot of Alex's audience to get excited about professional. I just follow a professional. I think that might

Jordan (01:24:39.000)

this garnish their image a little bit guy's a dick and I pay him for

Dan (01:24:43.000)

it. Yeah. So as this the journalism question, we'll we'll come back up, of course, but the questions on the table now is that if you're reporting a story, is it more important to be accurate or first or you know, quick to get the story out

Jordan (01:24:59.000)

all right, but Are you asked this question Kitt do not answer this question or

Dan (01:25:04.000)

the answer poorly.

Bill Ogden (01:25:05.000)

I asked Mr. Shroyer the same question that I'm about to ask you, which is foreshadowing you believe it's more important to get the news right, or to be the first to report the news?

Kit Daniels (01:25:16.000)

I think it's both. Really Yes.

Bill Ogden (01:25:19.000)

You don't think that veracity of the story far is far more important than it being reported before anybody else?

Kit Daniels (01:25:28.000)

Now, what I believe is that you also you want to be as accurate as you can be. But at the same time, you want to be timely.

Dan (01:25:36.000)

I mean, look, that's dumb. You don't want to ever say that, you know, you can sacrifice your your obligation to, like, be correct or accurate about things. If it's in the interest of getting things out fast

Jordan (01:25:53.000)

know, the editor in chief at like, WaPo, or something would say the most important thing to us is the truth by far it's right. You know, and then, you know, quietly, they'd be like, well, obviously, we've got to get it out timely. And there's no there's there's a push pull of the economics here, but they wouldn't say it

Dan (01:26:09.000)

well. But I think that the reality is, obviously there's an incentive for things to be immediate when there are new stories, of course, but that is in no way more important than accurate. No, always. So if you can't get an accurate story, you shouldn't run with it for the sake of speed does not matter. And I don't think that that is what's what good is describing? No, I think he's saying like, it's half and half.

Jordan (01:26:35.000)

I would say you get it as right as you can get it so long as you get it out the door at that. Oh, wait, no, that means that I put timeliness way ahead of it. No. Okay, nevermind. That's trouble.

Dan (01:26:44.000)

Yeah. So in discussing the speed thing, Kip reveals some stuff about how he views his responsibility to the audience, and vice versa, that I find troubling.

Bill Ogden (01:26:58.000)

When you wrote exhibit one. Was there any rush to put this article out?

Kit Daniels (01:27:03.000)

Yes, it was a breaking story. Why does that make it a rush? Because nobody, this shooting just occurred within a couple of hours. And it was in the public's interest to kind of kind of figure out what the motivations for the shooting were

Bill Ogden (01:27:16.000)

Why did you Why do you think the public needed to know the motivations immediately?

Kit Daniels (01:27:20.000)

Right? You just that's how the news cycle works. The people unfortunately, people don't want to know things 234 days later, okay.

Bill Ogden (01:27:31.000)

For Worse, since they're not journalists, there's no race. Wouldn't they have plenty of time to make sure what they're providing the people is true.

Kit Daniels (01:27:41.000)

Well, unfortunately, our audience kind of dictates or timeframe. How so? While they're just not gonna be interested in the story that's four or five days

Bill Ogden (01:27:50.000)

old? Why do you think that

Kit Daniels (01:27:52.000)

because the public tends to, if they have their eyes set on appreciate their story that happened to that moment of time, that's where their eyeballs are going to be at.

Dan (01:28:00.000)

So kids revealing a couple of really important things here. The first has to do with the relationship between the audience and the producers of the content. Kit believes that he has to rush out stories whether they're accurate or not, because the audience is fickle, and they won't care tomorrow about what happened today. But the reality is that he has this relationship backwards. Infowars has cultivated and trained this response from their audience through the constant bombardment of flashy headlines and imminent predictions of terrorist nukes and FEMA camps. Everything that's happening today is reported as cataclysmic because it needs to be to capture the maximum amount of attention. And if you want a chance at retaining any eyeballs tomorrow, the headlines better be just as flashy. And just as severe, and probably not about the same thing you were yelling about the day before. That's not going to be as exciting. No, Alex is trained isn't his audience partially because it's easier, and partially because he can't operate any other way. If Infowars took the time to flesh out stories and do follow up reporting just about everything they cover would be revealed to be bullshit and they'd spent all their time on error correcting the shit they said yesterday, which might be an interesting show. I think it would be as a like a sketch. Yeah,

Jordan (01:29:06.000)

good. Mr. Show, Colin, last week, sketches are correcting yesterday.

Dan (01:29:11.000)

There isn't time to flesh out stories because you need to get right back to work distracting the audience as soon as the next news cycle hits. And you have to, you have a very strong incentive to not flesh out stories anyway, because they don't hold up to scrutiny. They did this to their audience, but the way Kitt understands it, they're just responding to market pressures. This is kind of sad, but I do think that I believe he believes it.

Jordan (01:29:34.000)

Yeah, no, I feel like one of the things that I'm running into here and the reason that bill specifically said is he's more sympathetic figure is simply because it appears that he has been told all of these things and then just believed them.

Dan (01:29:50.000)

Yeah, yeah, there is that naivete. Yeah, it's it's a weird thing to run into, because that is a sincerity to it. Yeah. It doesn't, it doesn't feel artificial. No. And it's imagined to being a good enough actor to pull.

Jordan (01:30:05.000)

Oh, no, no, no, because what it is, is he's never asked himself a follow up question midway ever had to Yeah, he's never had to. So Bill is asking him questions that he's he's sitting there thinking like, I've never even thought of this question before. This is kind of interesting. Yeah.

Dan (01:30:20.000)

So the second thing that kid is revealing is the internal way that Infowars kind of understands that metaphor that I refer to as the wet concrete thing. Propaganda narratives really only stick if you're able to implant them early, you need to have something happen, and then provide the narrative for your audience to understand the event through, if you can get succeed at that your audience will be more likely to evaluate any further things they hear about the event through the prism of your conspiracy narrative, as opposed to looking at the details independently. This is a critical aspect of getting narratives to stick. And I think the kit is reflecting the basic understanding of this, but just from the producer side, he wouldn't want to think that that's what he's doing because it's inherently abusive to an audience, and it's entirely dishonest. But this is that dynamic. When he says that the audience wouldn't be interested in old news, what he's actually saying is that by the time stories, a few days old, the concrete is already dried, and whatever angle he's going to try and sell, it isn't going to stick. The thing I find the most fascinating about this perspective is that I completely agree with just about everything that kid is describing in terms of what whether or not the audience would care about a couple days old news story. The we have a fundamental disconnect in terms of why I blame Infowars and Alex, whereas it seems to blame the audience. Well, yeah, how they're fickle.

Jordan (01:31:34.000)

If they didn't want it, we wouldn't give it to a man. It's like, it's like, oh, just because I go into some community and give them a ton of heroin. People want heroin that has nothing to do with it, man, people always want heroin.

Dan (01:31:47.000)

Yeah, there's, there's there's something to that to that metaphor. So now we get to some of the details about the actual article that Kitt wrote. One of the pieces of information that he put into the article was about how Nicholas Cruz, the shooter in Parkland, was a Democrat. And the way he figured this out was their voter records. Gotcha. Now, this is your this guy, man. This first

Bill Ogden (01:32:13.000)

sentence is the first sentence of the story, correct? Yes. And it ends with voter records. Voter records suggest 19 year old Nikolas Cruz was a democratic voter. Yes. Where did you get your records?

Kit Daniels (01:32:36.000)

If I remember correctly, I did a search. I think Florida has a I think voter records in Florida Republic.

Bill Ogden (01:32:44.000)

Okay, so for this story, you weren't reporting on what other people were saying you went out and found voter records on your own? Yes. That's journalism through the commentate on what's happening in the media, if you're reporting something that nobody else is reporting,

Kit Daniels (01:33:06.000)

unless, I'm sorry, I'm trying to my memory is a little bit fuzzy. Unless this is something I found somewhere else. Believe that Florida's My understanding was Florida as a voter registration is public information. Okay. Although this might have been a screenshot account for somebody else. So you don't even know where it came from? What my understanding is, it came from Florida, I probably did go back and verify it to make sure this is not just something completely made out.

Bill Ogden (01:33:36.000)

Okay. So you do go and verify things. Yes. Isn't that journalism?

Kit Daniels (01:33:40.000)

It's just something that's good practice for who?

Bill Ogden (01:33:44.000)

So you do go and verify things for the audience? Yes. That's my ability.

Dan (01:33:51.000)

I was I was kind of getting to a point around here where he's like, this is getting a little annoying, a little bit grading. At a certain point.

Jordan (01:34:02.000)

I am I am starting to recognize why I was not invited to the depositions. I feel like I wouldn't be able to keep quite a same solid faces as you and and Bill were. Well, I wasn't here for this. No, you weren't there for though, but I mean, that people who have been in these depositions,

Dan (01:34:20.000)

sure there's a there's an expectation of decorum. Although I will say spoiler alert, at one point there is an audible laugh which I enjoy and I will give you a heads up Excellent.

Jordan (01:34:33.000)

I'm very excited.

Dan (01:34:34.000)

So good. This this this question of like is this journalism is what you're doing journalism is just on answerable? This is just such a such a murky

Bill Ogden (01:34:45.000)

when you agree that journalists have a duty to be right. Would you agree with that?

Kit Daniels (01:34:53.000)

That's what journalists do.

Bill Ogden (01:34:54.000)

Right. So if journalists weren't reporting an Instagram account before To say, since this was within hours of the shooting, they were verified.

Kit Daniels (01:35:05.000)

Well, unfortunately, that's what you, that's what you and me would like to believe what? And growing up, that's how I always saw a traditional media. But unfortunately, I saw an article in Axios recently, and in my opinion, Axios is a little bit left leaning. They pointed out that the trust in traditional media is is like, plummeting.

Bill Ogden (01:35:27.000)

I agree. But let me ask you this. How did that answer my question?

Dan (01:35:34.000)

I do like that, that. Let me ask you this. Let me let me throw this out at you. What does that have to do with that? So this is in relation to the notion it's given in kits article and the headline, the sub headline, that the media is somehow covering something up about the Parkland shooter, right. And this is that, you know, a complaint I guess, as best as Kate can explain that no one else is covering the, the Instagram right account, right. And so, Bill's conjecture is maybe they're checking things. And so it's a kid's rejoinder is that there's an Axios article that came out the people don't trust the media. See, and again, this is not related to themselves not related to the question at all. You think that? Unfortunately, this leads to get getting getting some thoughts out about statistics?

Jordan (01:36:26.000)

No, no, no, no, no, no kid,

Dan (01:36:28.000)

this leads to a brick wall.

Kit Daniels (01:36:30.000)

I'm not in the newsrooms, are some of these organizations, right? So you shouldn't really have an opinion on what they're doing? Well, it's not my opinion, when I say that I Axios reported that public trust in the media is at all time lows.

Bill Ogden (01:36:44.000)

And that was a sample of the general public, correct? I believe so. Okay. You don't know who they sampled? Correct? No, you know, how many people

Kit Daniels (01:36:53.000)

well, if it's over my understand being an economics major, if it's over 30, it's maybe statistically important.

Bill Ogden (01:37:00.000)

I mean, there's a top there's at least seven more variables that are absolutely necessary for it to be reliable. Not just over 30, geographical age, gender, all of those go into it to make sure it's subjective. Its objective, correct.

Kit Daniels (01:37:16.000)

That's what you're saying. I don't know that. Right. Well, you're citing

Bill Ogden (01:37:18.000)

statistics. And so I'm stating that statistical principles. Okay. Do you know them? No. Okay. Let's not talk about statistics. Okay.

Dan (01:37:32.000)

Do you know anything about this? Oh, no.

Jordan (01:37:37.000)

Hey, how about this, I'm gonna give you a gift. Don't hang yourself right now. But again, you got time.

Dan (01:37:42.000)

This is exactly what you were talking about the doors that get open. Yeah, walks down that hallway. Yeah, man. There's like, no, no going anywhere, buddy,

Jordan (01:37:49.000)

buddy, you Come on stop.

Dan (01:37:50.000)

So the article itself some of the 30. But here's the thing. I can't tell because of the context, right? I can't tell if he means over 30 people polled. Right, or if it's over 30% relevant? Yeah,

Jordan (01:38:04.000)

I don't know. I could, I could definitely see him saying over 30 people polled, but I can't believe it.

Dan (01:38:10.000)

It seems like that's what he's saying based on context, right. But if you're being overly generous, then it's like, well, if something is over 30%, then it's statistically irrelevant. I could say that something in the 20s is still it could be could be seen as irrelevant if what

Jordan (01:38:23.000)

he's saying is that a poll is statistically irrelevant, as long as you ask more than 30 people. That's why I do not believe in education anymore. I don't think it can save us I don't think it

Dan (01:38:35.000)

has to be over 30% to be statistically relevant then. I mean, our last episode from 2003 was reporting on a German poll. percent of people thought that 911 was an inside job. So that's not statistically to get that from stat news. That is not a statistics. So the article itself, some of the main claims in it were that kit was saying that the shooter dressed like a communist, also dressed like an ISIS fighter in Syria, Hellboy and supported ISIS. These were claims that were made based on Nicholas Cruz's Instagram Instagram page that he found and the picture of Marcel Fontaine that was found on 4chan That kid Miss identified the driver right Yeah, and so we get into a little bit of this the claims of the communist dressing the supporting ISIS and it's not good for kit

Bill Ogden (01:39:31.000)

would you agree with me that reported Florida shooter dressed as communist is false.

Kit Daniels (01:39:42.000)

If what I was if the headline had to do with spontaneous photo ban Yes, I would agree with you.

Bill Ogden (01:39:51.000)

Would you also agree with me that reported Florida shooter dressed as as communist comma supported ISIS? That's all A false,

Kit Daniels (01:40:00.000)

I don't know, because if I remember correctly his Instagram account said things like Allah Akbar. And his these photos and the Instagram account. This looks like something I would expect an ISIS fighter in Iraq to dress like,

Dan (01:40:16.000)

interesting. He says ISIS fighter in Iraq, but constantly goes back to Syria. Yeah, for some reason. Yeah. And so this is this is kind of an interesting notion like, Why do you think this looks like an ISIS fight? Right? And this could not go more poorly for kids?

Jordan (01:40:32.000)

Of course, not this? Because I can already tell you what a stone answer is right now. I can just be like, hey, who knows what's in a man's heart? That's it. And then he'd ask questions, you'd be like, that's all I got for you that stone.

Dan (01:40:44.000)

I think that some level of don't answer this would have been appropriate, best way. Instead, get just fumbles the ball multiple times. It's it's embarrassing.

Bill Ogden (01:40:56.000)

The article that you wrote says Additionally, the shooters garb is very similar to the style worn by ISIS fighters and fighters in Syria. I'd read that correctly. Yes. Okay. When we look at the image that you included in this article, there are 2345 pictures of allegedly Nicholas Cruz, correct? Yes. Okay. And is this the the collage of photos that you drew? The ISIS fighters in Syria comment from? I believe so? Yes. Is it normal for ISIS fighters in Syria to wear United States Army hats? Well, I

Kit Daniels (01:41:40.000)

was looking at the mask that they're wearing. And the kind of the nice how he's holding his knives. So

Kit Daniels (01:41:51.000)

when you say the United States Army, I mean, I do remember that. There was a big controversy to do it. Where ISIS fighters I believe it was in Syria, we're using a pickup truck from a plumber in Houston. That still had his logo on it. So there's no talent. I mean, what possibly,

Bill Ogden (01:42:10.000)

so it's based on your analysis? It's fair that the videographer here is dressed as an ISIS member fighting in Syria? No, he's

Kit Daniels (01:42:18.000)

actually pretty dress pretty well.

Bill Ogden (01:42:21.000)

I know plumbers in Houston that dress like that.

Kit Daniels (01:42:23.000)

Well, let's talk about the plumbers truck.

Dan (01:42:28.000)

This is why you don't need I answer these

Jordan (01:42:31.000)

worlds. Do you? Want world do you offer information at a deposition? Well, I

Dan (01:42:36.000)

think probably there's poor preparation. Well, there's definitely that and I think also these kinds of justifications for like, why did you think that those work in his normal life? Oh, yeah,

Jordan (01:42:47.000)

totally, you

Dan (01:42:48.000)

know, around for wars. That's good enough. Yeah. Again, he doesn't hang out with too many, like, critical people of his worldview. And if he does, maybe it's like, some place where he has a camera, and it's hostile based about yelling at each

Jordan (01:43:02.000)

other. Sure. Sure. He doesn't have to actually question himself.

Dan (01:43:05.000)

Yeah. And so why did you think this person looked like a ISIS fighter in Syria, he was wearing a mask. And as an American army hat, but also a plumber in Houston's truck was in Syria. It's just common sense. And it gets worse, it just gets worse.

Bill Ogden (01:43:25.000)

So if he was if the videographer here was wearing a US Army hat, you would, you could infer from that that he was dressed as a fighter in Syria? Well, it

Kit Daniels (01:43:36.000)

wasn't the hat that I was looking at specifically, it's just the whole collage of the image, the whole thing, the fact that the guy is wearing Gestalt, if you will, which is definitely I've seen lots of photos of ISIS fighters and they definitely like to wear masks for whatever reason. Have you ever

Bill Ogden (01:43:51.000)

seen pictures of people wearing masks? Okay, so we can throw that one out is reliable. Anything else you got in here that's reliable as far as somebody dressed like an ISIS fighter in Syria?

Kit Daniels (01:44:04.000)

Well, the photos I've seen of ISIS fighters in Syria were definitely very similar to how he's dressed, how his

Bill Ogden (01:44:09.000)

mannerisms? How many, how many photos of ISIS fighters in Syria? Have you seen a lot? Okay. And based on that, Nicholas Cruz right here is dressed like that.

Kit Daniels (01:44:21.000)

Yeah, I mean, it could pass off as a Halloween costume.

Bill Ogden (01:44:24.000)

He could also pass off as a bank robber in the United States.

Kit Daniels (01:44:29.000)

Nursing, I think a bank robber or think of someone wearing a presidential mask.

Bill Ogden (01:44:35.000)

Okay, other than that very specific and extremely random comment. We'll go on to have you ever seen photos of of, of Taliban forces in Afghanistan? Yes, any of them were masks. Possibly. We didn't have that in the article.

Kit Daniels (01:44:53.000)

Taliban was I don't even think the Taliban was in the news at the time was mainly ISIS. If you

Bill Ogden (01:44:57.000)

don't you don't think or you don't know. I don't I remember, okay, well, then we can dismiss that comment and you can answer my question. Okay, why didn't you add Taliban forces in Afghanistan?

Kit Daniels (01:45:09.000)

Because in the news cycle, the time it was ISIS

Bill Ogden (01:45:12.000)

is, is extremely popular and sometimes often required for members of the Tamil Tigers to wear masks exactly like that. Tamil Tigers. I'm not familiar with that. So the second largest terrorist organization in the world. No, I'm not. Okay.

Dan (01:45:28.000)

That's a bad look. That's good. Don't know who the Tamil Tigers are. For a conspiracy. Geopolitical website Managing Editor not great. Not a great look.

Jordan (01:45:39.000)

We need to redo the austere Oscars because that's best supporting actor level shit right there. That was hilarious. It's that is a funny, man.

Dan (01:45:47.000)

It's pretty dry delivery.

Jordan (01:45:52.000)

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. When I think of bank robbers, I think people were presidential. You know? Like, yes, of course. Boy break. Of course, boy break.

Dan (01:46:04.000)

Not like the traditional striped. Oh, no, nope, definitely not.

Jordan (01:46:11.000)

Do you think I've tommy guns and they shoot their names into the wall?

Dan (01:46:14.000)

So I would, I would say that kit does not do a good job of defending these assertions?

Jordan (01:46:21.000)

Well, I mean, the idea of not giving a shit what it is whether or not it's ISIS, or Taliban, or whomever, because what's in the news is ISIS. Sure. That's kind of an important reveal. But

Dan (01:46:32.000)

yeah, and it also kind of dovetails with what he was saying about like, whatever the you know, the audience's eyes aren't going to be endless unless it's something immediate. Yep. And that that makes your content suffer, I believe. Yeah. So now we jump over to the notion that he had that the shooter supported ISIS and where they came from. And just a heads up, there is a ethnic slur that is used in this as part of the explanation for his

Jordan (01:47:00.000)

course. Of course,

Bill Ogden (01:47:02.000)

in here you did say the shooters garb is very similar, right? Yes. When we look at page one, you say he supported ISIS?

Kit Daniels (01:47:11.000)

Well, there was a phone number correctly in his Instagram account. He said something about Allah Akbar,

Bill Ogden (01:47:17.000)

or to page three. You see the screenshot on page three of his of Nicholas Cruz and the voter registration. Yes. Okay. You see the caption on the Instagram post? The Yes. Can you read it?

Kit Daniels (01:47:40.000)

Believe it says, well, at least we now know what it means when a sand Durka says Allah Akbar.

Bill Ogden (01:47:45.000)

Does that sound like anyone in the world that would support ISIS? I have no idea. Do you know what a sand dark is? No. Okay, then why on earth? Would you derive your headline from a sentence that you don't understand

Kit Daniels (01:47:57.000)

it? Well, I don't believe I derived it from this. I believe I've derived it from something Cruz said on his Instagram account. This is his Instagram account. This might have been another comment he made on another post on Instagram account.

Bill Ogden (01:48:10.000)

Surely you would have included that in your article since your headline said he supported ISIS? possibly. Possibly

Jordan (01:48:16.000)

a it could happen?

Dan (01:48:18.000)

Who knows? So yeah, he decided that the just the fact that Allah Akbar, right is included within the body of this phrase that also includes a slur. Yeah.

Jordan (01:48:31.000)

A very specific slur.

Dan (01:48:33.000)

That means that he supports

Jordan (01:48:34.000)

Yeah, I would go the other direction. Yeah, go the other direction.

Dan (01:48:38.000)

The context of it is quite clear. And I think one of the things that you can really derive from this is the level of attention to detail, that someone who's in a managerial role at Infowars engages with his content with and that's the scary, I guess,

Jordan (01:48:56.000)

I mean, I'm trembling. I'm just shocked at the like, completed mission of more of just just lack of curiosity. What like, I wait, I can't believe I can't believe that you would have no idea what that means and not be like, I better take a look at that.

Dan (01:49:12.000)

Sure. You know, you will you just ignore entire parts of sentences

Jordan (01:49:18.000)

ignored or have to, because you're just like, I don't need to ask questions. Well, the level of

Dan (01:49:22.000)

lack of curiosity and lack of knowledge base, let's say it gets worse. Much worse. I believe that. But before we get to any of that, which is I find one of the more staggering admissions. We'll get to in a second. Yeah. But before that, the conversation of like, why did you need to report based on this shoot, why is the Instagram something that you felt?

Jordan (01:49:49.000)

Yeah, why would you do this? Yeah.

Kit Daniels (01:49:51.000)

Well, based on his Instagram, that's at the time the shooting just occurred. And unfortunately, that's kind of all we had to go with to kind of tried to figure out what this man's motivations were. So maybe the suspects motivations were

Bill Ogden (01:50:06.000)

okay, because information was so limited. Maybe it should have slowed down a

Kit Daniels (01:50:12.000)

while was a breaking news story for you. And I was forgotten.

Bill Ogden (01:50:17.000)

So the audience said, tell us the motivation. Yeah, it was all over the news at the time, who did the audience? Who at Infowars got a call from the audience that said, we want to know right now?

Kit Daniels (01:50:26.000)

Well, that's just standard practice. If the news cycle was, if you see in every single news outlet, and on social media, they're all talking about this mass shooting. That's where the audience's eyeballs are at.

Bill Ogden (01:50:37.000)

Okay, where did it come from? That the audience needed to know the motivation immediately to the point where you just start throwing darts in a dark room?

Kit Daniels (01:50:46.000)

Well, it's just, it's kind of in the public's interest as well. That's what people are asking, sitting here

Bill Ogden (01:50:51.000)

today, looking back at the veracity of your article, do you really think this article was in the public's interest?

Kit Daniels (01:50:56.000)

It was in the public's interest to try to determine what the motivations were behind a mass shooting,

Bill Ogden (01:51:01.000)

you would agree with me that one thing that is never in the public's interest is somebody who is disseminating false information?

Kit Daniels (01:51:10.000)

Well, I mean, with malice, maybe.

Bill Ogden (01:51:14.000)

What does that mean?

Jordan (01:51:16.000)

What does that mean, you can't get? Why did you offer up an answer to a question that only begs but that only raises further questions. Don't

Dan (01:51:26.000)

answer that question. Don't

Jordan (01:51:26.000)

do it. Man.

Dan (01:51:27.000)

You gotta learn when to shut up. Unreal. Yeah, that is a real problem through a fair amount of I can see.

Jordan (01:51:36.000)

I do appreciate that Bill has very clearly got a point to this section of questioning at leats, which is that beginning of like, what matters more accuracy or timeliness? And when he says both bill is very clearly going, I'm going to dismantle the concept that you give a fuck about veracity, and that it's all about timeliness. Yes, yes. And I appreciate that. It's very good.

Dan (01:52:00.000)

And the kid is doing such a good job, unfortunately. Yes, yeah. Of kind of explaining why that immediacy is so important. Right? Is that like, this is how the business model operates. Right?

Jordan (01:52:17.000)

Which is exactly what Bill wants to hear. Because that's how you get the money part of the you profit off of lies

Dan (01:52:25.000)

and the the hopeful recognition that what you're doing is clickbait, right. There's another thing that the bill tries to nail down through this. I was like, Can you recognize that what you're doing is clickbait. Right. And this conversation, as it appears here leads to what I would describe as the most staggering admission of ignorance that you're going to hear

Kit Daniels (01:52:49.000)

okay, frankly, I think it's a little weird. His photos. I mean, why would you, your Instagram account, just be nothing but photos. You weren't mass showing eyes? Well,

Bill Ogden (01:52:59.000)

I mean, I think you're trying let me back that up. Trying to make sense of an individual who brought guns to his high school and killed a bunch of people.

Kit Daniels (01:53:11.000)

I want to say since maybe like motivation,

Bill Ogden (01:53:13.000)

okay. Why? Why did you have to do it right then in there?

Kit Daniels (01:53:17.000)

Because that's where the audience was paying attention to at the time.

Bill Ogden (01:53:21.000)

Right. So this is clickbait. It's unreliable information about a story the audience wants to read about. That's clickbait right.

Kit Daniels (01:53:28.000)

That's your opinion.

Bill Ogden (01:53:30.000)

what's your what's your opinion of clickbait? When I use it? What do you think it means?

Kit Daniels (01:53:34.000)

Well, I don't really engage in clickbait, so I don't really have an opinion on it. What's the term

Bill Ogden (01:53:37.000)

mean? You just use the term clickbait? What do you mean by it?

Kit Daniels (01:53:42.000)

I think clickbait is something like, when you see an article on social media, it's like, click here to find five wastes, find five household products that will clean your house pick and span,

Bill Ogden (01:53:55.000)

right? So it's like, click here to find this out. And then you click on it, and there's no real information about that. Yes. Okay. So when this says he supported ISIS, and somebody clicked on your story, were in here. Would they find that he supported ISIS? Just based on what I saw on Instagram, no point to the point in the story where your readers would find the information that he supported

Kit Daniels (01:54:18.000)

ISIS, just the Al Akbar, comment, okay,

Bill Ogden (01:54:20.000)

which you have no idea what it even means.

Kit Daniels (01:54:24.000)

I mean, I know that's a phrase ISIS fighters use a lot.

Bill Ogden (01:54:29.000)

It's also a phrase that every Muslim in the world uses Did you know that?

Kit Daniels (01:54:35.000)

Not necessarily, I'm not too familiar with.

Bill Ogden (01:54:37.000)

You didn't know that. Akbar is a Muslim phrase that is used literally everyday multiple times by every Muslim in the world. I'm just

Kit Daniels (01:54:46.000)

not that familiar with the Muslim ideology.

Dan (01:54:49.000)

Oh my god. Wow,

Jordan (01:54:51.000)

that's just fucking Wow,

Dan (01:54:53.000)

that I don't even know what you would say to that.

Jordan (01:54:56.000)

I mean, I guess I guess it's easier to understand. What that's what I would say is, it's a lot easier to understand why you're a white supremacist. Because you clearly have no fucking clue what's going on.

Dan (01:55:09.000)

Oh, and it's in a rational world, someone with this little information like would not be anywhere near the levers of talking about these topics publicly. Right. You would not be able to opine about terrorism, any issues related to Islam, right, if you didn't have the some very basic pieces of information? Yeah. And it's the we do not live in that same world.

Jordan (01:55:33.000)

I feel like a fundamental issue we're running into here is Kitt does not believe that words have immutable meaning.

Dan (01:55:40.000)

I don't think most people at Infowars believe things outside of subjective Right.

Jordan (01:55:44.000)

Right. Right. But I mean, it it is like, if when you ask me what a journalist is, it's a word that has a meaning. You can just repeat that meaning back, because that's what a word means. Yeah, he's like, you know, it could be like, when a bird flies and it drops information onto the ground and that information is a is a seed and the seed becomes a tree and that's

Dan (01:56:07.000)

journalism. Now imagine that bird is Glenn Greenwald. Recent work

Jordan (01:56:12.000)

right, right, right. Yeah. And that seat is a bomb of bullshit.

Dan (01:56:17.000)

Yeah. So this next clip could have been an out of context drop, but it's just bill dealing with the fact that Kitt did not know what Allah Akbar, okay.

Bill Ogden (01:56:25.000)

When you wrote this article did, it was your belief that Allah Akbar was something that only people in ISIS say?

Kit Daniels (01:56:35.000)

That was my belief at the time.

Bill Ogden (01:56:37.000)

Okay. And since that time you've been promoted

Dan (01:56:49.000)

it's tough, too. Tough to wrestle with. That is damning. I just got punched in the gut. That's damning for kid because of his clear ignorance, but it's also damning of Rob do. Yep. Presumably, his immediate supervisor, Alex Jones, the entire inner workings of Infowars. That, that, like he doesn't reach basic standards for like, I will be one thing if you didn't know what Allahu Akbar meant. And you didn't cover the topics that Kitt talks about, where he draws conclusions about things based on the words Allah Akbar, appearing somewhere, right? Where if he talked about financial news strictly, right, right. Maybe you'd just be like, yeah, that's not a world I really understand much about whatever maybe then you could be promoted if you're a good financial analyst, like

Jordan (01:57:36.000)

most whites, beat writers. He has no idea what all the who liked back by me. That's not the case. Jesus. Horrible, amazing. So that's incredible.

Dan (01:57:46.000)

Well, they're more incredible thing. As you'll recall, it was brought up that he reported that Nicholas Cruz was a presumably a Democrat based on voter registration, right? of bad news about that. Oh, no, you

Bill Ogden (01:57:59.000)

also included a screenshot of the Florida voter registration. Yes. Did you even realize that the name isn't even spelled the same?

Kit Daniels (01:58:11.000)

Not the time. It did not. It's

Bill Ogden (01:58:12.000)

not even the same person.

Kit Daniels (01:58:14.000)

Yeah, no. Well, I did learn it out for that contention.

Bill Ogden (01:58:20.000)

Yeah, true. Yeah. But the name doesn't even match up. And you know,

Kit Daniels (01:58:26.000)

now that I remember that there was an instance where there was, if I remember correctly, there was two reported instances of his name in the media at the time. And it wasn't until the next morning of the 15th, where his correct spelling his name was more prominent in the media.

Bill Ogden (01:58:46.000)

So when you wrote this story, alleging that this person supported ISIS, and was a communist, you weren't even sure how to spell his name.

Kit Daniels (01:58:55.000)

Just because the media at the time was recording like I think two different spellings of his name.

Bill Ogden (01:58:59.000)

Why did you pick the one that you picked in the store? I don't remember. You just picked one and said, I will go with it.

Kit Daniels (01:59:06.000)

I don't know if I hit that. I just don't remember that sound like

Bill Ogden (01:59:08.000)

good reporting. I just don't remember. Does that sound like good reporting is what I asked.

Kit Daniels (01:59:13.000)

Well, unfortunately, when there's something on news that's breaking, the details tend to be a little muddy.

Bill Ogden (01:59:24.000)

Right, and they're muddied by individuals trying to pull full stories out of details that are not yet developed, correct?

Kit Daniels (01:59:33.000)

Well, I'll give you an example.

Bill Ogden (01:59:36.000)

First, correct.

Kit Daniels (01:59:37.000)

What was your question?

Jordan (01:59:41.000)

Oh, no. Oh, boy. Yeah, that's tough. All right. So when I describe my job, it sounds good. But then you describe it and it sounds bad. And I don't understand your words because I feel like my job is good.

Dan (01:59:53.000)

No, it's bad. There's another point that comes up later, that bill brings up and that is that there may have been well Suppose spellings of Nicholas Cruz's name Sure, but there was only one birthdate that was released and then you could have cross reference that to figure out who it was in the voting record. And kids seem surprised by this. Excuse

Jordan (02:00:10.000)

me, sir, I do not understand what cross reference means. Describe that to me in greater detail, using words like I am a child.

Dan (02:00:18.000)

So kid has brought up that, you know, in the immediacy of stories, sometimes when there's breaking news, things get a little bit muddy. And Bill is suggested that maybe things are muddy when people try to force stories.

Jordan (02:00:30.000)

Yeah. I might as well have just been like you realize that you right? Yeah, that's basically what he does. And this next

Bill Ogden (02:00:36.000)

reason it's muddy is because all the news organizations are chasing after the story. And the details haven't been flushed out enough yet to report the whole story. So it gets muddy,

Kit Daniels (02:00:46.000)

right? Something like that. Right?

Bill Ogden (02:00:49.000)

You realize you're the you're part of the problem. Do you realize that?

Kit Daniels (02:00:54.000)

Maybe in this instance,

Bill Ogden (02:00:56.000)

I'm just saying, Well, you You seem like you're sitting here today saying what you did in this story was was okay. Do you think it was okay to do? No? Okay. So you realize you were wrong? Yes. Okay. And you realize you could have been way better? Yes, absolutely. Okay. You realize nothing about any of these photos has anything to do with communism, or supporting ISIS? I

Kit Daniels (02:01:17.000)

understand that now. Yes. When do you start understanding

Bill Ogden (02:01:19.000)

that?

Jordan (02:01:22.000)

Just this moment, how

Bill Ogden (02:01:23.000)

did you realize it

Jordan (02:01:24.000)

just when you asked what he told me, it'll

Kit Daniels (02:01:26.000)

give me good insight as far as ISIS.

Bill Ogden (02:01:28.000)

So before I just instructed you on one, anybody who actually supported ISIS would never use the term sand Durka.

Kit Daniels (02:01:36.000)

I wasn't aware of that term.

Bill Ogden (02:01:39.000)

You didn't even know what it meant. You didn't Google any of this. You just saw it and said, Oh, I recognize two of those words must be ISIS.

Kit Daniels (02:01:46.000)

Well, it was a breaking news story at the time for you, I would assume

Bill Ogden (02:01:49.000)

so.

Dan (02:01:52.000)

I feel like a lot of my responses to these clips is oh, boy, kid,

Jordan (02:01:55.000)

you stepped in at this time. This is this is a boxing match. I mean, just Mike Tyson versus a three year old. Dad is bad. Yeah. Although at the same time, here's what I feel like. I feel like listening to kit now. Kit feels like he's in a much more comfortable space just because he feels like he's getting dressed down. Like he's a man who's used to having people tell him he did a bad job. And right now he's like, Yeah, you're right, man. I didn't do a bad job. Like I feel comfortable here. I'm not being questioned to think about things right now.

Dan (02:02:33.000)

And possibly in other circumstances in his life as dressing downs don't really lead to any consequences. And then he gets a bonus.

Jordan (02:02:40.000)

Exactly. So he just says, Oh, I'm sorry, sir. No, yeah, you're right. I'll do better next time.

Dan (02:02:44.000)

There may be something to that. But whether that is the case or not, is relies on some assumptions. And I think we can at least say there is something of value in him recognizing that what he did was wrong. Yes. Which is something again, low bar that forthrightness is not necessarily there in a lot of other Info Wars, personalities who are questioned about these things. And so you know, again, applaud tentatively. So the question of commie comes up a communist aspect? Yeah. And I don't think that his support for this is much better. But it has to do with a text that Alex showed. Your other headline

Bill Ogden (02:03:23.000)

said that he was a communist, you got that from the picture of my client?

Kit Daniels (02:03:27.000)

Correct. That was my understanding. At the time, you don't

Bill Ogden (02:03:29.000)

have any other there was no other information that you had leading anyone to believe that the Florida shooter supported communism?

Kit Daniels (02:03:40.000)

Well, Jones back during the Las Vegas shooting, he showed me a text from one of his sources, that was somehow tied to the FBI hostage rescue team during that shooting, that said that there was a bunch of Antifa paraphernalia all over the hotel room. So that kind of got me into that line of thinking.

Bill Ogden (02:04:01.000)

So now, just anytime anyone fires a weapon off near you, you just immediately look for something that looks Antifa. Like,

Kit Daniels (02:04:07.000)

no, that was what the source said, Okay, what

Bill Ogden (02:04:09.000)

does that have anything to do with this story?

Kit Daniels (02:04:10.000)

That just kind of put me in the mindset.

Bill Ogden (02:04:12.000)

So you were brainwashed by Mr. Jones.

Kit Daniels (02:04:14.000)

I want to say I was brainwashed.

Bill Ogden (02:04:16.000)

It sounds like you. He showed you something from a source. And from there on out. You were in a mindset to assume and look for Antifa

Kit Daniels (02:04:24.000)

Well, I wasn't going to disclude it.

Dan (02:04:28.000)

Oh, not as good. We're gonna run out of it. We're

Jordan (02:04:31.000)

gonna it's gonna leave. What am I gonna? What am I gonna leave it out? Sure.

Dan (02:04:36.000)

Based on this text that Alex showed of an alleged source, okay,

Jordan (02:04:41.000)

all right. So is this source said it was Antifa. And obviously I called him a commie What don't you understand?

Dan (02:04:47.000)

Well, no, no, no, the source said there was Antifa literature at the Las Vegas shooter which prior to this and a different Right, right. So other shootings now we've got to just throw because that is now an established talking point. The world of Infowars got it. So Alex would want him to include other things. So you can make connections between things where there is no actual connection right and build the grander conspiracy. Right?

Jordan (02:05:09.000)

So does not understand this. Clearly.

Dan (02:05:12.000)

I don't think so. But I do think there is some subconscious understanding. Yeah, you can eat and that's the stuff that I think is being kind of revealed. Questioning totally. And that it Thank God, he did just decide to answer questions he didn't need to Oh my god. So this leads to the actual discussion of the Fontaine photo that Kate included it in his article. And in the in the picture, it's Marcel holding up his fist, and he's wearing a shirt that if you don't pay attention to it might look like a communist shirt. But it is revealed in this next clip what the shirt actually is. What does Antifa

Bill Ogden (02:05:53.000)

stand for?

Kit Daniels (02:05:55.000)

Anti fascists, I

Bill Ogden (02:05:56.000)

think, Okay, what does everybody that's an Antifa support communism? I don't know you didn't put anything about Antifa on your story, did you? Did you

Kit Daniels (02:06:10.000)

know The photo of Mr. Fontaine, if I remember correctly looked like a communist shirt.

Bill Ogden (02:06:16.000)

Flip the page, it's in front of you. Looks like a communist shirt. If you look closely, do you recognize that shirt as a parody on the Communist Party? Were certain communist individuals that are famous are having a party for instance, Lenin has a lampshade on his head and people realize that no, I did not. You just saw a red shirt with this with the hammer and sickle. And you said gotta be communism.

Kit Daniels (02:06:45.000)

That was my assumption at the time, especially considering his fists like that.

Bill Ogden (02:06:52.000)

Is somebody raising their fists like this hasn't been used for any other movements?

Kit Daniels (02:06:59.000)

Possibly. But in this photo that combined where I see a red shirt with the hammer and sickle,

Bill Ogden (02:07:04.000)

bam, gotta be communism in your eyes

Kit Daniels (02:07:06.000)

was my assumption that it looks like something like a communist?

Bill Ogden (02:07:10.000)

Okay. In the in the headline, it doesn't say my assumption is that he might be communist. Did you say that?

Dan (02:07:21.000)

No? Sure didn't. So we kind of have these fundamental claims that Kate was leading with like the dress like an ISIS fighter in Syria supported ISIS was a commie right. And all of this is shown to be based on the flimsiest. And the evidence is actually contradictory to the claims that would lead you to the opposite conclusion, or at least the absence of a conclusion. And I think that that's pretty clearly demonstrated. Totally. And so Bill asks, How do you think you did on this?

Bill Ogden (02:07:54.000)

One at a 10? Rate, your performance on this article?

Kit Daniels (02:07:58.000)

I'd say about a two or three

Bill Ogden (02:07:59.000)

really, you got to to,

Kit Daniels (02:08:02.000)

to everything you said if I had this to do all over again, I wouldn't done it this way. Frankly, I think this is my one of my worst performing articles I've ever gone.

Dan (02:08:12.000)

Yep, no, probably. But here, here's what's what's interesting about this, because I had to listen to that a couple times. Bill's asking one to 10 Right. How do you give yourself a ranking? He says two or three right? Bill is shocked at how did you get to two right, and Kitt interprets that is how did you get down to two? How did you get down to it as opposed to what deserves

Jordan (02:08:31.000)

to never occurred to him to think that oh, he's looking for me to justify why it's better than

Dan (02:08:38.000)

zero? Yeah, he's like, why isn't this attempt?

Jordan (02:08:40.000)

I wish I wish I could listen to this episode with zero understand with zero context for Info Wars or anything, just the idea of listening to somebody go like, Oh, I called him a communist. And he's like, you realize that the shirt had Lenin wearing a lampshade on it, right? Just that moment. Like, this is really happening. This is not fake. It would

Dan (02:09:04.000)

be strange to see what kind of conclusions you would draw about Infowars based on it, like, just sight unseen of all the other stuff we know. I don't think it would come across positive wouldn't go well. So, Marcel's face is the only one that's visible, right in the pictures that get put into the article. And that that's a problem. Because if you're looking at the article, you would maybe assume that it's the same face under those masks that are on the Instagram account, you would have to and that is at play.

Bill Ogden (02:09:35.000)

You would agree with me that in Exhibit one. Yes. The only photograph of the alleged shooter with the is the only photograph with an unobscured face is Mr. Fontaine. Yes. So when you started spreading photos of the shooter, the only one that anyone can see a face isn't even the right person. Correct. Did you you know what a river We're seeing these searches, right? I'm familiar with it. Okay. Did you do one?

Kit Daniels (02:10:04.000)

I remember typing in Nicholas Cruz on Google images. And unfortunately, the photos that were coming up were of Mr. Fontaine. Okay. I didn't ask that question. I know that I'm just that's just me clarifying.

Bill Ogden (02:10:18.000)

I asked you whether or not you did a reverse image? I don't remember.

Jordan (02:10:22.000)

And the answer is no, you did not. Yeah, the answer is no. Yeah.

Dan (02:10:25.000)

So that's poor practice. Probably. One of the things too, that sort of is a hallmark of this deposition is that there's a kind of nonlinear aspect to the questions that are asked. Yeah, and things like, as you noticed, with the voter registration came up at the beginning, right, and then came back up. And here the notion of journalism comes back up. And this unfortunately, kid has referred to himself as a video journalist. Oh, no, this introduces an entirely new wrinkle of what does this mean? Oh, boy,

Bill Ogden (02:10:57.000)

your declaration in front of you? Yes. If we look at paragraph two, says you're a video journalist. Oh, and you use the term journalist, video journalist, right. Journalists, though, is

Kit Daniels (02:11:16.000)

in the context of video journalism.

Bill Ogden (02:11:18.000)

Correct? What's the difference between regular journalism and video journalism?

Kit Daniels (02:11:22.000)

I use the term video journalist because I really didn't know how to describe myself to the best of my ability as far as going out and shooting videos, interviewing people,

Bill Ogden (02:11:32.000)

and then writing stories about those videos. I didn't do that very often, if at all. Okay, so you just shoot videos, and then give them to somebody else?

Kit Daniels (02:11:40.000)

Not shoot videos, upload the website.

Bill Ogden (02:11:42.000)

Okay. You wouldn't write anything at the bottom or a story of what the what the video

Kit Daniels (02:11:46.000)

typically not. I never I generally never had time to I would just shoot a video and just upload it to YouTube. And then we've embedded on Infowars

Bill Ogden (02:11:54.000)

CBN. News reporter be like,

Kit Daniels (02:11:56.000)

I never I I mean, normally in the company, we use the phrase reporter for to on air talent.

Bill Ogden (02:12:05.000)

Right, but you were taking videos doing interviews and uploading them to the public, right? Yes. So when you see news cameras out in the field, and their little vans, and they pull over and set up the camera and do an interview. There's there's nothing different from that and what you were doing well, they had a lot more equipment and they had a van. That's fine. You don't have a van or that equipment. But you got a camera and you have a mouth Correct?

Kit Daniels (02:12:32.000)

Yeah, but unfortunately, there's a lot of interviews I couldn't do because it seems like when you have a small camera people think you're small time so oh my god. Why are

Jordan (02:12:41.000)

you telling them this? What are you doing? Hit the spot damage

Dan (02:12:46.000)

the splitting hairs. But these definitions is so weird.

Jordan (02:12:51.000)

What are you doing? Yeah, kit. What are you? Well, you know, I mean, sure I do all the things but am I

Dan (02:12:58.000)

I do I do everything? That's exactly the same as people I would describe as journalists. Except I don't have a van. And I use a knife. My cameras

Jordan (02:13:06.000)

too small. Yes. My camera is too small for me to be a journalist man. Come on,

Dan (02:13:11.000)

right. Infowars is $50 million in debt. We can't afford impressive cameras. And Alex spent all the budget on a tank. Yeah. Now I can't take that out. So kit justifies his use of the image of Marcel that he uses by claiming that, quote, The image was trending. Ah, see, it was trending. Right. And that is also a problem. When you look at reality.

Bill Ogden (02:13:36.000)

You turn the page to page paragraph three. Yes. It says I've published an image of a man that I had obtained from the popular image and web board entitled 4chan says, I went to the fortune website after I had seen the challenged image trending on social media. Yes. Okay. How does how does an image trend

Kit Daniels (02:14:09.000)

when you see it all when you go on like your Twitter newsfeed, I need to see it all over the place or even maybe your Facebook newsfeed everywhere.

Bill Ogden (02:14:19.000)

And under oath right now to this jury, you're telling them that you saw Mr. Fontaine's photo all over your newsfeed. That's my

Kit Daniels (02:14:27.000)

understanding if I recall correctly. Okay.

Bill Ogden (02:14:32.000)

Do you know how many times at the time the article was published? Do you know how many times how many times that image had been posted on Twitter? No. Do you know how many times you've been posted on Facebook? Would it surprise you a lot? You know that it was in less than a dozen.

Kit Daniels (02:14:48.000)

Will it timeframe

Bill Ogden (02:14:49.000)

between the shooting and your article? Live?

Unknown Speaker (02:14:58.000)

Big Goldwater trending

Kit Daniels (02:14:59.000)

Well, maybe I'm maybe I just happen to see all of them.

Dan (02:15:05.000)

I like I like that one.

Jordan (02:15:07.000)

That's a good one.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:08.000)

Maybe I haven't taught falling.

Jordan (02:15:12.000)

Listen, maybe you just don't have as many cool friends as I do.

Dan (02:15:15.000)

Yeah. That's, that's grim. So the justification is in kits. statement is that David that he's sworn includes a image of somebody posting this picture of Marcel on Twitter prior to kit putting out the article, right. And there's also revealing

Jordan (02:15:40.000)

that bad news. It's gonna be kid, isn't it?

Dan (02:15:42.000)

No, but it is what turns out to be a troll Twitter account. And unfortunately, in the conversation with this, we learned another gap in kids information base that is truly staggering.

Bill Ogden (02:15:55.000)

And paragraph three of your declaration. Yes. You also talk about Laguna Beach Antifa. You see that? Yes. Okay. You relied on Laguna Beach Antipas. Tweed? Correct? No. Would it surprise you to know that it was the only original source at the time that had posted it and all others that you would have seen would have been repurposed?

Kit Daniels (02:16:21.000)

That would surprise me

Bill Ogden (02:16:25.000)

that would surprise me. Now that we've established that

Jordan (02:16:30.000)

surprised me,

Bill Ogden (02:16:32.000)

you your testimony in this affidavit is that the Laguna Beach anti for Twitter post was at 2:37pm hours before I posted the challenged image on the Infowars website. Yeah, yes. 2:37pm What timezone?

Kit Daniels (02:16:52.000)

I believe that'd be Central time. Why would you think that because that's the timezone I'm in

Bill Ogden (02:16:56.000)

wouldn't surprise you to know that if you go to the beach page. That doesn't correlates with California.

Kit Daniels (02:17:05.000)

I was I was under the impression they were out of Florida. Would it surprise you you think Laguna Beach California Yes.

Dan (02:17:18.000)

Beach, Florida.

Dan (02:17:24.000)

These are unforced errors. In trying to explain himself, he reveals these just remarkable misconceptions that he has. Allah Akbar is something that only ISIS people say this slur isn't a slur. Laguna Beach is in Florida. It's it's This is sad. It

Jordan (02:17:49.000)

feels like if you are going to prepare Kitt Daniels for this deposition, you have to be as unfair one as honest as any human being has ever been. And just start with, they know the true answers to the questions they're going to ask you. Yeah, so your instinct is going to be wrong. Yes. You do not know the true answers to what they're quite answering you. You can't know you cannot. So any answer you have is only bad for

Dan (02:18:17.000)

us. There's a human impulse to explain yourself. You want to be friends?

Jordan (02:18:21.000)

Yeah. You want to explain? No, listen, let me explain why you don't feel like what I did was bad. Don't just don't do that.

Dan (02:18:29.000)

I guess a good way to prep him would just be like watch every episode of Law and Order.

Jordan (02:18:34.000)

I mean, no good way to prep him is like a fucking mafia prep where he wakes up in a goddamn River. Like that's the type of prep you need to do for this this shit.

Dan (02:18:45.000)

It's it's I don't know what you would do. I mean that like, you'd have to deal with so many, like just first concepts. Yeah, absolutely. In order to be like, you can handle being like cross examined. Alright, somebody,

Jordan (02:18:58.000)

sir. Some things are. And some things aren't way, way, way, way way. Yeah. Okay. All right. Let's start from the beginning.

Dan (02:19:07.000)

So this Antifa account apparently was pretty new. By the way. That's the fake account. It is a troll account. But it was it might have been might have been. This tweet might have been pretty fresh. When Kitt got his hands on it. Oh, no.

Bill Ogden (02:19:23.000)

Would What time did you post the article?

Kit Daniels (02:19:27.000)

It was approximately 4pm Or after

Bill Ogden (02:19:31.000)

about 23 minutes. It had been up on Laguna Beach and toughest page for 23 minutes. How long have you been following Laguna Beach antifade. Twitter.

Kit Daniels (02:19:40.000)

I wasn't following them on Twitter.

Bill Ogden (02:19:42.000)

How did you get to it? I did not. What's it doing in your affidavit?

Kit Daniels (02:19:46.000)

So Kevin Brown went and found an example of Fontaine's photo on social media that predated when I put it up on Infowars

Bill Ogden (02:19:59.000)

Why didn't you just go Get the original. I didn't

Kit Daniels (02:20:01.000)

remember I couldn't find the original, unfortunately.

Bill Ogden (02:20:04.000)

How long did you look? Full class? 3040

Kit Daniels (02:20:06.000)

minutes. That's it? I mean, maybe longer.

Bill Ogden (02:20:11.000)

Maybe it was. Well, I

Kit Daniels (02:20:12.000)

couldn't find I went back and look at the for the for I screenshot it for 14 I could not find a thread. I did I do remember looking for it on social media. And unfortunately, a lot of people were deleting it. By the time I was looking for, for the discovery process.

Bill Ogden (02:20:27.000)

Why were they deleting it? I don't know.

Kit Daniels (02:20:30.000)

Because it was wrong. Possibly yes.

Bill Ogden (02:20:33.000)

Or because there were a bunch of Twitter pages set up quickly, that posted this image as troll pages to see if any news media outlets would pick it up and run the story.

Kit Daniels (02:20:44.000)

That's a that's a possibility.

Bill Ogden (02:20:46.000)

Do you believe you're a victim of some internet trolls that just got the best of you? Because you weren't paying attention?

Kit Daniels (02:20:51.000)

I think I was duped? Definitely.

Bill Ogden (02:20:53.000)

I think you were too.

Jordan (02:20:55.000)

Boy. I love that he instantly responded with what he thought was a solid amount of research time, 30 minutes 30 to 40 minutes. And when he was questioned on that immediately, he was like, maybe it was longer. I didn't know it was supposed to be longer was supposed to be longer

Dan (02:21:14.000)

but but like 30 minutes to try and find this. If you had fine found it that would be a reasonable amount of time to have spent because that seems like about how long it might take should take you about that long to find you failed to find it, then we're in trouble gave up. Pretty easy. Oh, well. So now we get back we re explore this notion of Alex told him about the Antifa literature at the Las Vegas shooting right? So this Antifa idea is connected to this shooting somehow, which then has been translated into communism, right,

Jordan (02:21:50.000)

which makes sense to Kitt.

Dan (02:21:53.000)

Yes. And this is why

Bill Ogden (02:21:56.000)

the only thing he got from his photo was that he you didn't even understand the t shirt he was wearing what motivation that you add to the story with

Kit Daniels (02:22:04.000)

well, it was hard to understand that the t shirt he was wearing, kind of looking at it. I mean, it had a hammer and sickle it was red color at the time. I couldn't tell it was a parody shirt.

Bill Ogden (02:22:14.000)

What? What did that What did his photo add your story?

Kit Daniels (02:22:23.000)

Well, like I said, I was told during the Las Vegas shooting that there was an Tifa paraphernalia all over the shooters room. That got me in the mindset to consider that there might be some sort of communist and Tifa link to suddenly shootings going on.

Bill Ogden (02:22:43.000)

Okay, what did Mr. Fontaine's photo add to the article?

Kit Daniels (02:22:52.000)

I thought it was a photo of Nicholas Cruz at the time, and you

Bill Ogden (02:22:55.000)

believe that everyone in Antifa supports communism? I don't know. Then, how'd you get to Oh, I saw hammer and sickle and it was red.

Kit Daniels (02:23:04.000)

Because normally I when I see a hammer hammer and sickle and a red shirt, I think communism.

Bill Ogden (02:23:10.000)

Okay, how do you get to Antipa? What's that? Communism

Kit Daniels (02:23:14.000)

to? Just was that about the Las Vegas shooting?

Bill Ogden (02:23:17.000)

So Alex Jones is the reason why you assumed everyone in Antifa supports communism. I never said that. You, you added the picture of Mr. Fontaine. Because he had a communism shirt on in your eyes. Yes. Okay. You added that, because Mr. Jones, showed you some information that led you to believe there might be an Antifa related ideology behind these shootings. Yes. How do you get from communism with Mr. Fontaine shirt? To him being Antifa

Kit Daniels (02:23:55.000)

it's in the same spectrum politically. Antifa tip is typically left leaning communism is typically left leaning.

Bill Ogden (02:24:05.000)

That's that's how you got to the headline of your story.

Dan (02:24:09.000)

Yes. Oh, swinging a miss. Man, he feels they're both left

Jordan (02:24:16.000)

leaning feel like kick Daniels should really just be going like, Dude, you are blowing my mind. What are you saying? I'm saying that Antifa and communism, they're the same. And you're like, Have you thought about it? And I'm realizing that I have not.

Dan (02:24:30.000)

Right. And this leads to a line of questioning about like, Ah, now what about white? Why? Why didn't you blame Obama? He is also. That's troubling. Yeah, we're in trouble. So we returned to the issue of the reverse image search, because obviously this is leading to information that bill already has at his disposal of what he would have found. Had he done a reverse image search right.

Bill Ogden (02:24:58.000)

When did you when did you We learned what a reverse image search was.

Kit Daniels (02:25:02.000)

I don't remember unfortunately. Okay, was it

Bill Ogden (02:25:06.000)

just now? Six months ago?

Bill Ogden (02:25:08.000)

Six years ago? I don't remember having known about it for a while. say so. Okay. And have you run one on this image?

Kit Daniels (02:25:19.000)

I don't remember.

Bill Ogden (02:25:21.000)

Standing here today. Have you run whenever?

Kit Daniels (02:25:24.000)

I've done in the past? Yes. On this image on Fontaine image? Yes. I don't remember.

Bill Ogden (02:25:29.000)

Okay. It's not hard to do, right? It depends. How do you do a reverse image?

Kit Daniels (02:25:37.000)

Oh, no. Sometimes I use tenei.com. Sometimes I tried to use Google.

Bill Ogden (02:25:41.000)

Okay. Both of those, you just copy and paste the image? Right?

Kit Daniels (02:25:46.000)

Yeah, Google's tends to be kind of finicky.

Bill Ogden (02:25:49.000)

Regardless, it's not hard to do. Right? Yes. And standing here today. Did you know that if you do reverse image search, you will find Mr. Fontaine photo. The exact one with the exact same commentary at the bottom posted four days before the shooting ever happened? Did you know that? No. It's kind of an important fact. Right? Especially if you could have done reverse image search before spreading his photograph all over the nation, alleging him to be a mass shooter. Right. Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:28.000)

All right. Bye. Bye.

Jordan (02:26:32.000)

You are blowing my mind. Man. What are you saying? reverse image search before I post? Why?

Dan (02:26:37.000)

Yeah. Thanks. Good to see you have some trouble.

Jordan (02:26:42.000)

That is the first time it ever occurred to him to have done that before posting?

Dan (02:26:47.000)

Oh, I don't know about that based on our next clip, but also never has that noise been more appropriate. You know, so you're saying that he'd never thought about the idea of of reverse image searching before? Right? Unfortunately, plaintiff's attorneys are they have at their disposal? Kids previous work? Oh, no.

Kit Daniels (02:27:09.000)

You've seen this before. I vaguely remember writing.

Bill Ogden (02:27:14.000)

In this article, you talk about how reckless it is for people to not run reverse image searches. Don't What was that say? Article is dated November 5 2016. Correct.

Kit Daniels (02:27:32.000)

Oh, sorry. Yes.

Bill Ogden (02:27:35.000)

And that's over a year before you did you publish Mr. Fontaine photographs. And the headline says law enforcement Beggs world. Read Hillary's email Hillary emails to find child rape evidence. And then it says Hillary linked to child sex ring comma emails suggest? Yes. Okay. We flipped to page eight says the seller attached a picture of a Beanie Baby collection to the email but using a reverse image search. The image appeared to be a publicly available photo that appeared on several blogs as far back as October 2014. And perhaps even earlier. The sellers email was dated June 2015. I read that correctly. Yes. So you knew what a reversing research was at the time? Yes, you'd done before you posted Mr. Fontaine photo to the world. Yes. Why didn't you do one?

Kit Daniels (02:28:32.000)

I don't remember. But I if I didn't do for Montaigne's photo or gret not doing it. I bet.

Dan (02:28:40.000)

Yeah. But yeah, there is something so satisfying, I guess because he works for Infowars. Like, you didn't do a reverse image search would have found that your story was complete bullshit. If you had done one. Also, here's a article where you're scolding people for not doing the reverse image search.

Jordan (02:28:59.000)

Do you know what it feels like? It feels like a constant repetition of that Jackass sketch where they have the giant hand

Dan (02:29:10.000)

the nomadic or the

Jordan (02:29:12.000)

the guys carrying the tray of drinks or whatever, and he's just walking right into Coombe and it explodes in his face every question he's he's just like, he has he knows that the thing he's answering after that is you know, you wrote this article,

Dan (02:29:26.000)

but what's kind of remarkable about it

Jordan (02:29:28.000)

too, is that he doesn't seem to ever realized the hands coming. Nope, no clue. It's every single time it's troubling. They walk towards that door with all those drinks and it gets smashed by the hand again.

Dan (02:29:40.000)

Yeah. So because this reverse image search article that Kitt has written about something to do with the Podesta emails and Clinton has been brought up right now kids Pizzagate covered

Jordan (02:29:51.000)

Oh boy, here we go. defend this. Well,

Dan (02:29:55.000)

he actually does Oh, and the way he does it is by throwing Alex the fuck under the bus. Good

Bill Ogden (02:29:59.000)

call. We'll just flip to the next page, page nine, the second full paragraph. So there's other strange emails sent to Podesta include cryptic references to pizza, hot dogs, pasta and walnuts, which are fueling speculation. They are code words for criminal activity, including child molestation. I read that correctly, right? Yes. This is a bunch of pizza gate. Nonsense, right?

Kit Daniels (02:30:23.000)

I don't know if this was necessarily involved with pizza gate. Oh, yeah. I understand that pizza gate had to do with the Comet Ping Pong pizza.

Bill Ogden (02:30:31.000)

Right? Where did all of that start? I don't know. emails with cryptic references about pizza and child molestation. You know that right?

Kit Daniels (02:30:42.000)

I'm not wasn't that I wasn't involved with the column painful. As far as I remember.

Bill Ogden (02:30:48.000)

You wrote an article about linking Hillary Clinton to a child sex ring.

Kit Daniels (02:30:55.000)

If I remember correctly, I think Alex Jones gave me the headline and the sub headline for this

Bill Ogden (02:30:59.000)

article gave you the content in the article.

Kit Daniels (02:31:02.000)

I think it was. I think I worked with it with Jones. Okay, but I don't remember unfortunately.

Bill Ogden (02:31:06.000)

One thing we do know is that here you are, again, writing about a story that turned out to not only not be true, but people acted on it. Right.

Kit Daniels (02:31:16.000)

What are you referring to this

Bill Ogden (02:31:17.000)

gentleman with an A with an AR 15 walking into a pizzeria and firing his weapon because he was convinced there was a child sex ring being run out of it?

Kit Daniels (02:31:27.000)

Did I say anything about a pizza pizzeria in this article? Beautiful.

Bill Ogden (02:31:32.000)

I'm saying you're reporting on the information that led to that pizzeria.

Kit Daniels (02:31:35.000)

I'm very sure about that. What do you think the

Bill Ogden (02:31:39.000)

name of that pizzeria came from?

Kit Daniels (02:31:41.000)

I have no idea Podesta. Like I said I didn't. I wasn't that involved with the comment painful stuff at all. No.

Bill Ogden (02:31:48.000)

But you were involved with spreading disinformation about these non cryptic messages. Well as the emails true

Kit Daniels (02:31:56.000)

it was Alex Jones that told me that pizza hot dogs pasta, walnuts are all code words. And I believe that was also FBI. Symbolism for what you believe that for child molestation? Do you still believe that? I don't know. I've just I was just trying to vaguely remember what this is from 2016 memories a little bit fuzzy.

Bill Ogden (02:32:15.000)

Why on earth would you believe that the FBI had code words like that for

Dan (02:32:19.000)

child because

Kit Daniels (02:32:20.000)

the FBI was would point out, Hey, if you ever hear these code words, this could be a signal for child molestation. So be on the lookout for it.

Bill Ogden (02:32:30.000)

Where'd you learn that?

Kit Daniels (02:32:31.000)

It was I believe is on a bulletin FBI bulletin. Do you? You're sure. That's what I remember

Bill Ogden (02:32:37.000)

a backup. Are you sure that what you're referring to is actual real FBI document?

Kit Daniels (02:32:42.000)

I vaguely remember seeing one.

Dan (02:32:44.000)

Vaguely. But like, there's this like, what is what this headline I think Alex gave me that had Yeah, Alex told me this kind of becoming, you know, this is gonna be a theme. Right? It's just like, I got that from Alex. Yeah, that's bad.

Jordan (02:32:59.000)

I can't believe he hasn't already. How far into the depth? We're at least an hour into the deposition. But yeah, I can't believe he hasn't already realized that. If he gets the question. Do you think that was a real document? He knows the answer to that already. Sure. Like he doesn't he just can't process that. Yeah. He thinks that anybody asking him a question is genuinely interested in his response to

Dan (02:33:26.000)

or there's a possibility that based on your answer, the information the other person has will be. Exactly No. And that's yeah. I mean, it's optimistic. In some ways.

Jordan (02:33:35.000)

It is. And he's, it's, it's a little Don Quixote. It is. It is more.

Dan (02:33:41.000)

Yeah, Panza. Yeah. So the bill decides the good approach to take here would be what have you ever gotten right?

Jordan (02:33:53.000)

Good call bill.

Bill Ogden (02:33:54.000)

Unfortunately, I've watched a lot of Info Wars programming. I think I've read every word that you've ever written. So when I'm asking you these stories, I kind of know what the answers are. So what else have y'all gotten right? You know, I'll give you to give you time. Epstein and Jesse Smollett. I'll give you those two guesses that y'all ended up getting right. What else?

Kit Daniels (02:34:21.000)

We are trying to think there's just so many of them so many.

Bill Ogden (02:34:27.000)

I'll wait. Excuse me one. And Gulf of Tonkin doesn't count your warning company when it happened. I said the Gulf of Tonkin doesn't count. They weren't a company when it happened.

Jordan (02:34:46.000)

I put that on the record please.

Bill Ogden (02:34:52.000)

We can sit in this awkward silence as long as you need to think of one time where you all right. Well,

Kit Daniels (02:34:56.000)

there's just so many like stories we've covered over the years as little bit Hard for me to kind of just pick one. And that's kind of the problem. It's like, it's kind of like on Spotify. Let

Bill Ogden (02:35:09.000)

me stop you here. You keep thinking, we'll wait and silence. Okay.

Dan (02:35:15.000)

That's not good.

Jordan (02:35:19.000)

Come on, come on, just let me get out of this one. Just let me get out of this one. There's so many just nothing but time. No, just let me get out of this one. Listen, I'll answer all your questions, sir. I'll get on my knees. Just don't make me answer. If anything I've ever written is true.

Dan (02:35:32.000)

It's an embarrassment of correctness. And so I have too much to choose from. Yeah, I think the reality of that is, obviously, you'd be very worried about saying anything definitively. Yeah. because there'll be a follow up question. Yeah. And you can't really back up what you're gonna say probably. So this is this is another moment of kit being like a normal human, sort of, and that is the question is posed to him. Do you believe that you and Infowars are responsible for the coverage that you put out that affected my client? Right. And Kitt, like a normal human accepts that responsibility? Oh,

Jordan (02:36:11.000)

my God, do you

Bill Ogden (02:36:12.000)

believe you and or Infowars share responsibility in what Mr. Fontaine has gone through?

Kit Daniels (02:36:20.000)

I regret posting his photo and what he's gone through.

Bill Ogden (02:36:24.000)

I didn't ask you how you felt. I asked if you're going to if you're going to hold yourself and the company responsible for doing what you did to? Yes. Okay. And that goes for both you and the company. Oh, are you aware that the company testified day before yesterday? And they said, We don't have any responsibility? No,

Kit Daniels (02:36:45.000)

I'm not aware of that.

Bill Ogden (02:36:46.000)

You would disagree with that?

Kit Daniels (02:36:49.000)

I know. positioner understand that your job? We

Bill Ogden (02:36:54.000)

know we know the answer. I've just asked it. And I can fall I'll strike the question. I got your answer.

Jordan (02:37:00.000)

It's tough to even listen, even bill at this point is throwing him that. Listen, we already know the answer. He's really trying to help him out.

Dan (02:37:07.000)

I thought he's not hitting as hard as he probably could. I really

Jordan (02:37:11.000)

do feel like Bill is like giving him this this like, I don't know what to call it. Just a sense of like, Man, I could really tear your ass into shreds. You know that right there?

Dan (02:37:25.000)

It comes back to the thing, the dynamic you were talking about at the beginning is just this feeling of there just do you say things that you don't need to say in response to questions that you could dodge or not answer? Oh, instead, you offer more information? Insane. It's basically like if it were a boxing metaphor, it would be like you're leaving your midsection exposed, right? Instantly, right?

Jordan (02:37:49.000)

Right. You've got your hands over your head, and you're saying I'm gonna get you, I'm gonna get you.

Dan (02:37:54.000)

So this next clip is where the, sort of the main headline surrounding this deposition is that get started crying, right? And this is the clip where that happened. Right, right. And I'm gonna give a little bit of just a warning in advance. There's some language that's used regarding Fontaine, that comes from 4chan posts that I think would some would probably find offensive, right? And just for the sake of, you know, it's on the record right? Here is that

Bill Ogden (02:38:26.000)

I'm gonna go ahead and assume you've never seen this February 10 post from 4chan either? No. Okay, you flip to page three. Yes. What do we see a photo of Mr. Fontaine. Okay. And that's four days before the shooting. Ah, correct. Yes. So, this post is if you go to the first page is is a sub page of 4chan called politically incorrect, right? I believe so. Yes. And the caption of this thread is Antifa ASPI lefty communist cringe thread. That's what it says show me your worst on ironic lefty dimwits commies, etc. You found while surfing the internet social media. Okay. And you understand Mr. Fontaine was posted by someone to this thread. It's what it appears to be as you know, do you are you aware that Mr. Fontaine suffers from any mental health diseases? No. Would that affect the way you feel about him? If he did?

Kit Daniels (02:39:27.000)

Yeah, it was I felt the same way at times.

Bill Ogden (02:39:30.000)

We're gonna represent you Mr. Fontaine has been clinically diagnosed with being on the autism spectrum, and has been for a while. He doesn't like he's socially, not very developed as you are today speaking and has dealt with mental health issues both before and continues. Now remember how you said you felt whenever you got death threats, right? Yes. Now, I want you to imagine You do not have any sort of mental health diseases that you know of correct? No, I've suffered from depression. Okay, have you suffered from autism? Social anxiety? Do you have an inability to work in large groups of people and deal with a lot, a lot of people in person? I do. Okay. And you can sympathize a little bit more with Mr. Fontaine for what he went through. And I understand you're upset, and I'm not trying to get upset, just take your time I can understand the suffering he's been through. Take your time, if I understand you're upset if you want to take a few seconds. Yeah, let's take a break and get him some tissues. We got the record before

Dan (02:40:56.000)

12:30pm. We're off the record. So they go to break. Understandably, I think that's probably a human impulse. Right.

Jordan (02:41:03.000)

They did. He did do a plug for you got to prevail vitality when they went to break just to Yeah,

Dan (02:41:10.000)

it's important. Yeah. Um, I think that a lot of people have drawn attention to this. And I think it's interesting, obviously, that he started crying. But I also think that it's probably the most human response to the information that he's being presented with. And I don't think that it's something that's mock worthy or anything, I think that it shows an ability to empathize with somebody when forced to, you know, I think, right, right. I think that obviously, he should have recognized the pain that he was causing through this sloppy ass work. Sure, prior to this, sure, you would hope that right. But I still find it very difficult to criticize that response.

Jordan (02:42:00.000)

I think this is a really good example of what we've talked about from the very beginning. With and with Alex, it's, you know, we've kind of come to a clear idea, it's less ambiguous but that stupid V evil continuum, right, you know, you can be stupid, and you know, still do evil shit. But it's kind of clear here that Kitt Daniels is not in the vindictive or malicious

Dan (02:42:27.000)

or kernel of evil, but totally unaware.

Jordan (02:42:32.000)

It's just kind of, he's just kind of an idiot, who I mean, unless he's a fucking Kaiser. So say Level Mastermind right here. Then he's kind of an idiot who has been lied to by Alex Jones and intimidated by everybody else.

Dan (02:42:47.000)

I don't I don't know what conclusion to draw. But I think you know, you that's certainly a fair reading. You can take i i was really, I knew I knew going in watching this that he started crying. I still felt when it happened, that it was shocking. Yeah. Like, it still shocked me. Because first of all, it kind of happens fairly quick. It does. It doesn't seem to be it doesn't it doesn't build very naturally to it. But what what it felt like to me, was somebody's dissonance really being challenged. Yeah. Like the the notion that like, this is what I do for a living. And this is what if I wasn't getting sued for this, I probably wouldn't even recognize that I had done something wrong, right. And here I am. Seeing parts of myself in the victim of what I've done these thoughts just sort of tearing Yeah, in the brain. And I don't know, it's hard. It's hard to look at

Jordan (02:43:44.000)

it. It is honestly, the thing that it reminds me of most is evangelical children, and how they grow up. And one of the things that will almost always wind up happening when an evangelical child leaves the faith for Good is they will have a very big conversation and they will suddenly start crying. And they don't entirely know why based upon the questions and the conversations and the thought they're having. And the reality is the reason it's happening is because they're going through this strange moment where everything they have ever believed comes into contact with a immune immovable force,

Dan (02:44:22.000)

and your reality is being challenged absolute

Jordan (02:44:24.000)

mind crushing pressure from that, and so you just always cry. It just happens.

Dan (02:44:30.000)

Now, conversely, if a cult deprogramming as well, but But conversely, you have situations like the Daria deposition, or Alex's deposition, where they're being confronted with, like very incontrovertible instances of the harm and damage that came to these, the victims of these these narratives, these things that they put out, and they did not bat an eyelash No, I think they had no right like Alex gave lip service to like, if, for example, the emails that Wolfgang Halbig sent harassing Sheriff sure Show lip service to like, this is horrible is wrong? Right?

Jordan (02:45:08.000)

I remember that there

Dan (02:45:09.000)

wasn't any kind of an emotional reaction. So, and with Dario was even worse and colder. She's

Jordan (02:45:15.000)

ice cold.

Dan (02:45:16.000)

But this, this, this feels like there's some humanity. Yeah, that's crying out it feels

Jordan (02:45:23.000)

Yeah. But that's why I bring up evangelical because it feels like the difference between a believer and somebody who was raised in the church, you know, like somebody who was raised in the church has been surrounded by nothing but this type of information for such a long time that it's assumed to be true, right? Believers, it doesn't matter what you do, it does not matter what you do, you cannot talk to them in a way that will cut through their belief system. But if you're just somebody who was raised around it, and is just absorbed it, then eventually you can go like, Oh, shit, what the fuck is around me? You know? Yeah, and I

Dan (02:45:59.000)

don't know, maybe there's an element to that it's kind of really shocking to see that. Yeah, we're making more out of it, then.

Jordan (02:46:07.000)

Really is possible. It is possible. I

Dan (02:46:09.000)

mean, yeah, who knows? It's really tough to interpret. And one of the things that makes it even more difficult is that like, to the best of my knowledge kit didn't immediately quit. Right? So like, I don't know, right?

Jordan (02:46:21.000)

I mean, and furthermore, because simply because of what we do, we're so unused to people having human moments on our show on crying all the time. Very real. Yeah. So it's like, I don't even know if anything's true when it comes to human emotions

Dan (02:46:36.000)

on this show. Right? What is actually underlying that human emotion? Even if it is right, yeah,

Jordan (02:46:42.000)

I mean, it literally could be him crying, because he realized that he's so fucked. You know,

Dan (02:46:46.000)

I feel like that's doubtful based on just the surrounding information. Just absolutely. But there's also like, I mean, if you wanted to get really cynical with it, there could just be a crying about his own pain. Yeah. Not empathizing, this, you're just reminding me that I'm get depressed, right. And those painful memories from my own existence? All right, what's motivating this? Totally, I don't know if that's the case, it doesn't really feel like it feels like there's an empathetic quality to it. It does. But again, I might just be seeing some things that I would prefer to see as opposed to this is just a total selfish. Oh, no, totally. I

Jordan (02:47:23.000)

want to believe that he is, you know, it's it's one of those things where I have that absolute bias as well. Like, I want to believe I want to believe that somebody can change, smolder. I want to I want to do it. Oh, Knight's Tale this,

Dan (02:47:37.000)

because it's preferable to like thinking that this is an organization that's

Unknown Speaker (02:47:41.000)

failing. Exactly.

Dan (02:47:44.000)

So they take the break, and they come back and one of the things that I think Bill is trying to do here is really force kit to recognize the cesspool that his information comes from right. So like this, 4chan, that he got his information from share, so there's more offensive language here. So just a heads up on that.

Bill Ogden (02:48:06.000)

If we look at page two, okay. There's a picture above Mr. Fontaine, right here. Okay. All right. That's Mr. Fontaine in the middle. Oh, okay. Can you please read the comment that was posted with

Kit Daniels (02:48:22.000)

it? Rather not but I will because you asked me It says same as be kami. fagot

Bill Ogden (02:48:27.000)

okay. Go down to or actually go down one what is the next one? Say? The nose? The knows? What's the next one say?

Kit Daniels (02:48:40.000)

What is it with the they them pronouns? Aren't they plural pronouns?

Bill Ogden (02:48:48.000)

Would you understand that to be a comment related to Mr. Fontaine being a non binary identifying individual? I,

Kit Daniels (02:48:59.000)

I, I guess just because I'm not terribly familiar with the terminology.

Bill Ogden (02:49:05.000)

It means I'll represent you Mr. Fontaine does not identify as a male or female. Okay. Okay.

Kit Daniels (02:49:12.000)

I get to know Yes. Okay.

Jordan (02:49:13.000)

Oh, my God.

Bill Ogden (02:49:14.000)

That's what if you go up one, that's what they them? Yes. They're picking apart the public information they find on him and using that to make fun of him. Then you see the photo of Mr. Fontaine. Yes. Right under that. You see a picture that was posted. Correct.

Kit Daniels (02:49:32.000)

And it looks like it was a screenshot of a video.

Bill Ogden (02:49:35.000)

Okay. Can you tell me what the file name was? Left

Kit Daniels (02:49:39.000)

wing death squad.

Bill Ogden (02:49:40.000)

Okay. Go to the next one. Yes. Can you read it for us?

Kit Daniels (02:49:51.000)

I can guarantee that this loser works at the pallid I'm sorry, can palladium palladium in Worchester, Massachusetts They play loads of metal shows far more than any other genre.

Bill Ogden (02:50:05.000)

Do you know where Mr. Fontaine works? No, I'm gonna represent to you that at the time he worked at the Palladium and Worchester, Massachusetts.

Dan (02:50:14.000)

So the demonstration here is of the intensely bigoted nature of the harassment that Kitt continued, yeah, knowingly or unknowingly or through negligence. And the Daxing. And all of this is a kernel from which his reporting blew, right? Or whatever. And it's, it's a bummer.

Jordan (02:50:39.000)

Yeah. You see all these pieces of shit? Yeah, you're one of them. How do you feel

Dan (02:50:43.000)

about that? Not only you're one of them, it's more you have taken their goals and achieved. You've spread this harassment to a much larger audience than would be available on this poll board. Yeah. You know, and yeah. And, and in some ways, created a more mainstream ish place, right. Where it's happening. Right. And, you know, I think, I think if kit is dealing with what's being shown to him, I think it should be terrifying. Like, oh, that should be a wake up call.

Jordan (02:51:17.000)

I mean, yeah, yikes. Yeah. The fact that he didn't quit immediately after this deposition. says a lot.

Dan (02:51:23.000)

But then again, I don't know. I can't really say that with certainty. I don't know what his employment status is. That's fair. You know, like, I haven't gone to the website enough to know if he has byline. Right, right, necessarily. I haven't heard anything. I would say that if you didn't quit. That speaks volumes. Yeah. Yep. But oh, well. Anyway, he fell for a 4chan thing. And unfortunately, a year prior, you'd written another article.

Bill Ogden (02:51:51.000)

This is your article Correct?

Kit Daniels (02:51:52.000)

I believe so. Yes.

Bill Ogden (02:51:55.000)

It's got your name on it. Yes. Can you tell me what the what the headline is?

Kit Daniels (02:52:00.000)

BBC falls victim to 4chan Trolling MSN caught sounding like idiots.

Bill Ogden (02:52:07.000)

You it's kind of ironic.

Kit Daniels (02:52:09.000)

I would agree. Yes.

Bill Ogden (02:52:12.000)

And you wrote this article. August of 2017, right? Yes. But eight months before you wrote the article in question today, yes. Now, the subheading catches my eye. Can you read it for me?

Kit Daniels (02:52:37.000)

Please VC claims visiting 4chan constitutes investigative journalism.

Bill Ogden (02:52:42.000)

And that's your subheading there is pointing out and making fun of BBC for falling victim and for thinking that fortune is reliable. Correct.

Kit Daniels (02:52:51.000)

Something to that effect.

Bill Ogden (02:52:57.000)

You'd agree this one didn't really age? Well. I would agree.

Dan (02:53:00.000)

So there's a there's a ability for Kip to kind of laugh about this stuff after wild after he's sort of purged himself. Yeah. Yeah. It's weird. It's very weird. Yeah, that's

Jordan (02:53:13.000)

like flipping a weird switch. I know what an idiot. I look like now.

Jordan (02:53:19.000)

I gotta say, Man, forever. I

Jordan (02:53:22.000)

was crying for destroying that guy's life. Man. I feel like I've got egg on my face

Dan (02:53:26.000)

falling for a 4chan troll prank after a year after complaining that other people look like idiots because they fell for one. Yeah, that kind of makes it appear that I was aware that that's something I shouldn't be looking out for. Right. Then man that did not age well. Ah. So there's a another aspect to the Parkland shooting that get covered and that is that there were some bags that cops were taken to a car. Sure. And this is suspicious course. Right? Yeah. And so Kitt posted an article, make, make some questions about he's gonna be he's gonna ask questions. And so this next clip is an attempt to get Kitt to understand that this is not asking questions. What you're doing is not asking questions I

Jordan (02:54:09.000)

got is this a 45? minute long clip three.

Bill Ogden (02:54:13.000)

You are you continuing here under oath that the investigating officers of this shooting were improper? And what they did?

Kit Daniels (02:54:21.000)

I just the way I wrote this article, I just I thought at the time the video, it seemed a little odd. I'm not saying that they did anything improper.

Bill Ogden (02:54:30.000)

Sure. But let me do this. If if you and I go outside of this building, and we're standing there, and a school bus of children drive by, and I say that was really odd how you just looked at that little girl. I'm implying something but I can say I'm just asking questions, but it's not really a question. You get that right.

Kit Daniels (02:54:54.000)

I don't know if that's if that's equivalent to this.

Bill Ogden (02:54:58.000)

Well, sure it is. Um Just asking questions.

Kit Daniels (02:55:01.000)

No, I literally was, I mean, to me it did seem a little odd that they were carrying it at the time. It was pointed out to me. I believe it was a challenge. Maybe one of the word at radio production crews brought me this video.

Bill Ogden (02:55:13.000)

Why do you keep looking at me? Like, you realize this is clickbait, but you don't want to admit it? Because that's

Kit Daniels (02:55:22.000)

not my

Bill Ogden (02:55:24.000)

I'm just asking questions.

Kit Daniels (02:55:25.000)

You're the one that keeps bringing up the word clickbait. Yes.

Bill Ogden (02:55:29.000)

Look, in my opinion, they look like you're saying clickbait and that's so I'm just like, my eyes are saying clickbait right. I'm just asking questions. Do you see how this works? When someone has an opinion?

Kit Daniels (02:55:38.000)

I'm sorry, here philosophy.

Jordan (02:55:40.000)

All right here. Yeah, yep. Yeah, be very rude. But yep, that's

Bill Ogden (02:55:43.000)

fine when someone has an opinion kit, and then they inject that opinion into a loaded question with an agenda. And they put they do it in a form of a question. And then they say, whoa, whoa, I'm just asking questions. That's not actually asking questions. You don't care what the answers are.

Kit Daniels (02:56:00.000)

That's what your opinion is.

Bill Ogden (02:56:02.000)

Okay. What are the answers? You know? Did you go look? Did you did you go through the files of Parkland and look and see what bag was get put in that truck? You know, do you look, go try to search and find out who these officers were not after this? No, because it's not important. The important part is that you got bodybag, and responders acting suspicious the day after the shooting. That's the important part, not the actual truth, right.

Kit Daniels (02:56:29.000)

That's what you're implying. But

Bill Ogden (02:56:32.000)

what do you do to find the truth? What do you do to answer these questions?

Kit Daniels (02:56:35.000)

Let's put it this way. Just answer my questions. I will answer your question. What do you do? If I were to go back and do FOIA requests to find any of this out weeks later? I'm sorry, the audience has already moved away from Parkland.

Bill Ogden (02:56:49.000)

Right? You're writing stories to get your audience to read them now?

Kit Daniels (02:56:55.000)

No, I'm writing stories that the audience is already paying attention to

Bill Ogden (02:56:59.000)

your audience is gonna pay attention to in two weeks. How do you know they won't still want to know Oh, yeah, what are the answers?

Kit Daniels (02:57:05.000)

Because unfortunately, that's how the world works. Nowadays, people have a short attention

Bill Ogden (02:57:09.000)

span doesn't sound like these questions are very important than does it?

Kit Daniels (02:57:13.000)

That's what you're I don't understand what you're saying, Well,

Bill Ogden (02:57:16.000)

if you had all these important questions, right, but never even attempted to, to figure out the answers. They're not that important, or they,

Kit Daniels (02:57:26.000)

I guess is your opinion.

Dan (02:57:27.000)

That is a tough thing to get around. I've seen just asking questions, but I also don't care about the answers. That's that's a tough. That's a tough needle to thread.

Jordan (02:57:38.000)

I genuinely believe he does not understand what is being explained to him.

Dan (02:57:42.000)

I do too. Especially the part where like, your eyes seem to be saying,

Jordan (02:57:49.000)

Oh, no, he was like, I'm in a completely different world, sir.

Dan (02:57:53.000)

Please was even making clear like, you see how this you see, I'm doing this to you. Yeah. Did not

Jordan (02:58:00.000)

just can't get their news. The idea of answering a question does seem anathema to Kitt. Daniels. Well,

Dan (02:58:06.000)

he says possibly a lot. And yeah, that does come up, tells him to stop it. Hey, maybe he does say unfortunately, a lot to

Jordan (02:58:17.000)

me, you know, looking back on it, I would have preferred to have done my job completely differently from the beginning. Yeah, yep.

Dan (02:58:24.000)

So you, you know, obviously, questionnaire asking, that itself isn't bad. But this brings up the the notion of you got to ask the right questions.

Jordan (02:58:35.000)

Oh, boy, this is gonna be a 45 minute long

Dan (02:58:37.000)

clip just a minute.

Bill Ogden (02:58:38.000)

In your opinion, are these questions important?

Kit Daniels (02:58:45.000)

We're trying to figure out what's going on with the mass shooting. It is important to ask questions.

Bill Ogden (02:58:52.000)

The right questions,

Kit Daniels (02:58:53.000)

what who decides what the right right?

Bill Ogden (02:58:56.000)

Well, if they're wrong, we know which ones are the wrong questions, right?

Kit Daniels (02:59:00.000)

What No, I don't I don't know where you're getting that

Bill Ogden (02:59:02.000)

wrong. Questions are the questions that are put out there that nobody cares about. And nobody actually goes and tries to answer. Like your article

Kit Daniels (02:59:11.000)

says who? You need to be that important to you? You don't even care? What are you mean?

Bill Ogden (02:59:20.000)

Did you just said you did not go and do anything to get the answers for your request. When it taken too long? My readers wouldn't have liked that. So how important is Nivea?

Kit Daniels (02:59:33.000)

Here's the problem. I can't I can't force readers to care about things. If I wrote about something three or four weeks after the fact. People are just not going to care that much.

Bill Ogden (02:59:42.000)

So Info Wars audience only cares about the questions that are asked immediately and they don't care about the answers.

Kit Daniels (02:59:50.000)

The news audience in general tends to only focus on the stories of the day and they're not necessarily focused too much on stories what would happen 234 weeks ago,

Bill Ogden (02:59:58.000)

okay, sure. Where do you get that info.

Kit Daniels (03:00:01.000)

That's just common knowledge.

Jordan (03:00:02.000)

No, it's not. Oops. Oops, can't you're selling yourself short there, buddy. Are you saying that people don't want to read your work based upon the merits of your work?

Dan (03:00:12.000)

Not if it's a couple days old? Sure.

Jordan (03:00:15.000)

Hey, listen, I have got nothing interesting to say, unless you are already paying attention.

Dan (03:00:20.000)

Yeah, I think that things are a little contentious. Your permission to treat the witness is stupid. And so I think in cases like that, in situations like that, it's important to bring things back to the center and find some agreement which they are able to do here.

Kit Daniels (03:00:35.000)

I'll tell you, this gentleman has told me years ago that we were not investigative journalists.

Bill Ogden (03:00:41.000)

I can I can, I will agree with him on that. Now, whether or not you made your audience and I think, okay, okay, I'm sorry. Now, whether or not you made your audience believe you were it's a completely different question. But there is no doubt in my mind that nothing that you do is actually investigative journalists. I would agree with that. The problem I have is that Alex Jones is motto and something he's repeated over and over and over again, is we are the truth in what starts with A J and ends with an herbalism.

Kit Daniels (03:01:13.000)

Still don't know if I were to do that

Bill Ogden (03:01:15.000)

on his show. I don't know once or twice every three hours, at least for the first 300 hours I

Kit Daniels (03:01:22.000)

spent listening to him when he Well, unfortunately, I can't speak for Jones. Okay, so if Mr.

Bill Ogden (03:01:27.000)

Jones, the owner of the company says Info Wars were the truth in journalism, he's lying in your opinion. I didn't say that. Well, you said you're not journalists.

Jordan (03:01:34.000)

Oh, man. Oh, no. Oh, god damn it.

Dan (03:01:38.000)

These are the kinds of things that you just have to assume that either no one at Infowars cares or lead to horrible conversation.

Jordan (03:01:46.000)

I mean, just just like, it could not be more a man walking through a fucking crowded street of carriages while two people are carrying a pane of glass. And there's fucking watermelon carts everywhere. Like he is stepping into an absolute disaster every time he speaks. Yeah, amazing.

Dan (03:02:05.000)

Just imagine him going to work and be like, Hey, boss. So I blamed you for a bunch of things. I told them that you aren't journalism. And if you say you are you? Also, I said that Infowars is responsible for

Jordan (03:02:21.000)

starting to think I am not gonna have a good day today. Yeah,

Dan (03:02:24.000)

I don't need to sit down. I can just go back to my desks

Jordan (03:02:27.000)

good thing, um, well, practices apologizing for things I did wrong.

Dan (03:02:31.000)

But I think at this point, it really does want to get out of the line of questioning where it's like, Hey, you didn't even look into any of this. Sure. Sure. Yeah, I would imagine so and so it's someone else's fault.

Bill Ogden (03:02:41.000)

Let me ask you something. What was in this bag? I don't know. Was it weapons? I don't know. How many shooters were involved here. Was it just one or more? I don't know. Okay. What, what was Why did it take to train professionals to carry this bag? I don't know. Is it is their SWAT gear in that bag? I don't know. Are these questions that you find important? I don't know. I don't know. Okay, well, they're not important enough for you to go and answer, right? We know that.

Kit Daniels (03:03:18.000)

Well, if I remember correctly, I wrote this article at the behest of somebody else. Somebody told you to write it, I believe so. I think it was Jones or a radio producer. Like

Bill Ogden (03:03:26.000)

I said in Jones said, here's some footage, this is what I want you to

Kit Daniels (03:03:30.000)

I don't remember I just vaguely remember someone asked me to write this article.

Bill Ogden (03:03:33.000)

Okay. So this article would have been about is not necessarily your beliefs. You just wrote something that somebody asked you to write?

Kit Daniels (03:03:42.000)

Basically, yes, it's my understanding of it. And you would agree with

Bill Ogden (03:03:45.000)

me, these aren't? These aren't? You don't actually care what the answers are of these questions, right? I mean,

Dan (03:03:53.000)

wow. Exasperated sighs probably not the best you can do you know, after that?

Jordan (03:03:59.000)

Here's my answer to your question, sir. I am very tired. And you make me feel very bad about myself. I would like to not do this anymore. Can we do that?

Dan (03:04:08.000)

It's Alex's fault. Yeah. Producer. Oh, somebody else told me to do this.

Jordan (03:04:12.000)

Frankly. I mean, let's be honest. Did you hear me try and read the things you asked me to read? Do you think I'm good at reading or writing?

Dan (03:04:19.000)

So this this, there's still another matter to be the it's still the question of like, not answering these questions, because they're not important. Right. Alright. This is still being driven are

Jordan (03:04:32.000)

really trying to get this home to kit because I think it is important. It is if

Bill Ogden (03:04:36.000)

you thought these questions were important, you would have asked you would have gone and looked for the answers at some point between February 2018. And today, February of 2022. Right.

Kit Daniels (03:04:51.000)

Like I said, I don't consider myself an investigative journalist. I consider myself more as a social commentator. I don't even believe I've ever done a sport. data requests as far as I can recall,

Jordan (03:05:01.000)

amazing answers

Bill Ogden (03:05:02.000)

easy to my question. I'm not trying to trick you. Here what the answers are these questions, right? You're just asking them?

Kit Daniels (03:05:10.000)

I think I would have I would have been interested if I could find the answers of it. Like, within a couple of days of the shooting,

Bill Ogden (03:05:14.000)

are you saying you couldn't find those answers?

Kit Daniels (03:05:17.000)

I mean, no, you're not saying that. What's that? You? I'm saying, I doubt I could have found the answers to these questions a couple of days within the shooting.

Bill Ogden (03:05:27.000)

Mr. Daniels, you didn't even try? Because I didn't think I could have done you never tried? Because I'm not an investigative journalist. Right. So why don't you fight me on these questions?

Kit Daniels (03:05:38.000)

Because maybe I just don't understand the questions, maybe

Bill Ogden (03:05:41.000)

trying to put it out there that sometimes Infowars has articles to go out, whether written in your perspective, or on the half and somebody else that ask questions, quote, unquote, to stir up fear, or stir up a conspiracy theorist, like, there was a body in the bag, or there was weapons in the bag, or that there was SWAT gear in the bag? Or that it was a dead body? Or that that the bat that this was taken during the shooting all of these just questions. They're all there just to incite people to say, oh, my gosh, something might be up. And then where do they start going for information? They start coming back to www dot fill in the blank. Info wars.com. Because that's where this all started.

Dan (03:06:33.000)

It's tough for Kitt to refute any of this right? Because it is a pretty apt description of what he did. Yeah. This is just exciting questions. Yeah, tickle the brains of people who are drawn towards conspiracies, to imply that you have some kind of information that isn't accessible anywhere else, right, and then get them into your revenue stream more or less.

Jordan (03:06:57.000)

And I get it, he's trapped in fucking Fox News, right wing propaganda brain where the idea is never they I mean, the job of right wing media is to remove curiosity, by destroying the value of questions, you know, like, oh, gay marriage, what's next? Are you going to marry your dog? You don't actually want to know what's next. What's next is more equality. And everybody gets better you want to next is Yeah. Questions getting married? Yeah. Questions don't mean anything questions. They're just reasons to hate. Yep. Yep.

Dan (03:07:29.000)

So there's, there's a fundamental issue going on. And that is that the retraction of this story was not done correctly. Right. What about that involved picture of Marcel Fontaine? And so Kitt has an excuse about this. That is troubling.

Bill Ogden (03:07:47.000)

You know what date Mr. Fontaine filed a lawsuit.

Kit Daniels (03:07:52.000)

Around that same timeframe?

Bill Ogden (03:07:55.000)

April 1 2018. And he did that because the standard language that should have been in the original one, it's not just okay for you to take the photo out. This is what's required. Okay. And because he gave you two over two weeks, and nobody did anything about it, that's where this comes from. Do you find the retraction clarification and correction? A bit disingenuous considering it was in response to getting sued? No,

Kit Daniels (03:08:28.000)

if he here's my problem I've told my counsel is, if this is an attorney client conversation, it's privileged. Okay, well, I'm not gonna say what I told you, then.

Bill Ogden (03:08:42.000)

Well, you can say what you told her. You're not supposed to tell me what she wanted legal advice. She did.

Kit Daniels (03:08:47.000)

Okay. I understand that. HIPAA. My problem was at the time our counsel Eric Taub, apparently he said on that letter that you'll sit for a month. Okay. Excuse me. And my understanding is we had when we when we saw the letter in the lawsuit we had we went and got other counsel to write the retraction letter.

Bill Ogden (03:09:11.000)

Did you know that Mr. Tab actually represented you? All the way up until about maybe two weeks ago, for the last four years in this kid? Oh, excuse me. He pulled out in end of November.

Dan (03:09:25.000)

So there is a allegation being made here that their lawyer ignored this demand for retraction Yeah, for a month, and then they got new counsel, but he was still the counsel until very recently before this deposition. Yeah. This is troubling.

Jordan (03:09:42.000)

Yeah, if I was kicked Daniels lawyer, I would have said Do not say any of that.

Dan (03:09:46.000)

It introduces a lot more questions.

Jordan (03:09:49.000)

Excuse me. A lawyer sat on this for 30 days. May I have more details about that information? Thank you very much.

Dan (03:09:56.000)

Yeah, yeah, it's bad but also even Get given all that kids understanding about the rules about retraction Oh, no, are not great. And Mike down for this because this is the clip where you can hear a laugh. Okay.

Bill Ogden (03:10:11.000)

And your it's your contention that he sat on the letter and he's the reason why the traction wasn't done correctly or under the right timeframe,

Kit Daniels (03:10:20.000)

it was done under the right timeframe. What do you mean by that? I mean, my understanding is we have like three days to put the retraction up 10 In accordance with what I saw on the Texas State law, said 30.

Bill Ogden (03:10:34.000)

And even if it was 30, you got my letter on February 18. You changed it on April 2.

Kit Daniels (03:10:43.000)

I don't remember if I even saw the letter until the lawsuit, to be honest.

Bill Ogden (03:10:47.000)

Sure. But I'm just saying when you said you met the timeframe. I don't know how many days you're counting. But that's more than 30.

Kit Daniels (03:10:54.000)

But we don't we don't my understanding is we don't practice law in Texas on the weekends.

Bill Ogden (03:11:01.000)

That's not just blatantly not true. I practice law of time. Well, I mean, I practice. Do you

Kit Daniels (03:11:08.000)

do depositions and Saturdays and Sundays? Absolutely. Really? Yep.

Dan (03:11:14.000)

That that was where the light was. My understanding is in Texas, you don't practice law. And we

Jordan (03:11:23.000)

know I understand to a lawyer, my understanding in Texas, and it please stop me if you know any more about this than I do. Perhaps Are you some sort of lawyer that practices in some sort of state? Anyways, my understanding, despite you very clearly saying, well, all the words that would suggest what I'm about to say is not true. I don't think you guys work on Saturday.

Dan (03:11:45.000)

Well, what's something that's kind of even remarkable about this is that I know from firsthand experience being at a deposition in Texas that happened on the weekend, the weekend that happened before this deposition, people at Infowars proposed on weekend, get should know that this is nonsense, but I think it is is a fun little bit of

Jordan (03:12:05.000)

like, hold him back. Who told him that? I don't know. Where did he get that information?

Dan (03:12:10.000)

He read it in one of those like bathroom books,

Jordan (03:12:12.000)

right? That's it. That's one of those things where that's the type of shit where it's like, I genuinely want to know where it is. You got that?

Dan (03:12:19.000)

Yeah. What is it? What's the chain of custody? This totally, totally, totally. So there's still more problems with this retraction, though. And this also is another thing where Kitt might get scolded by Alex, for this.

Bill Ogden (03:12:32.000)

I do have a question about exhibit two. Okay. Here is on this web page. On February 14 2018, we showed a photograph of a young man that we had received. That's very puzzling, considering you said that you pulled it in that Nope. You never said anybody sent you that photo? Oh, yes, you're right. So whoever wrote that, that's that clarification also isn't accurate. Only those

Kit Daniels (03:13:04.000)

words I did bring up to Alex Jones. I didn't like we had received. What did he say? He said, Just let the lawyers handle it. They

Dan (03:13:16.000)

don't say Alex's name in the do it. Oh, you're only gonna get Alex a trouble. You

Jordan (03:13:24.000)

could have said lawyers. You could have said lawyers. You didn't need to say, Alex told me

Dan (03:13:30.000)

I brought up that exam. He told me to shut up.

Jordan (03:13:35.000)

How is it that he has not been able to remember so much but this one time? He's like, Oh, yeah, that one? I definitely brought that up to Alex, probably a problem would not have been more certain that he took that exact complaint to Alex. Amazing.

Dan (03:13:49.000)

So Kitt wrote this article. And something happened the next day, around Infowars. That's kind of funny. Interesting. The day

Bill Ogden (03:13:57.000)

after you posted your story. Paul, Joseph Watson, who at the time I believe was what was the role you gave him? Not chief editor but editor at large or

Kit Daniels (03:14:10.000)

that's how you refer to himself and his biography.

Bill Ogden (03:14:12.000)

And he says so the alt right and the ALT Left media crafted a fake news narrative that fulfilled both their objectives using made up for chin posts less than 24 hours after a bloody massacre that killed 17 People period okay period. You realize Mr. Watson's actually making fun of you right now. He doesn't realize that you did this but the sandy by Mr. responds to him and says that's rich coming from you. Info Wars published false information in the wrong photo and propaganda efforts to link the left and and Antifa you're a huge part of the problem period, complete hypocrisy period. He's not wrong. There is

Kit Daniels (03:15:03.000)

no let Sandy go

Dan (03:15:08.000)

he does clarify that like he didn't do it maliciously. No, of

Jordan (03:15:12.000)

course he did. But he doesn't even understand things.

Dan (03:15:15.000)

I just find it tough. How do you how do you continue working there? I haven't noticed having this thrown in your face that like your own senior editor or whatever was posting articles mocking the very work that you're getting sued over.

Jordan (03:15:31.000)

I legitimately don't know how this dude fucking brushes his teeth every morning. I don't know if he speaks to his Blender. I don't know if he's given things fantastical names like I sleep and the gumbo bed like I don't I don't know. It's I don't know how this dude functions. It's pretty confusing. It is bananas to me.

Dan (03:15:49.000)

So he also wrote some stuff about the Las Vegas shooting on some notions of Antifa literature and what have you. Bill wants to establish it that was also clickbait.

Bill Ogden (03:16:00.000)

I'm gonna ask you one question. Okay. Your your headline says Vegas shooter found with Antifa literature, right? Yes. Point me where you get that from in this article.

Kit Daniels (03:16:18.000)

I don't see an embed for it.

Bill Ogden (03:16:21.000)

You know why? I don't remember because the headline is clickbait. That's your

Kit Daniels (03:16:27.000)

opinion. Not

Jordan (03:16:31.000)

Oh, my God, what do words mean, Dan? Nothing. That's what I thought.

Dan (03:16:34.000)

So this article that Kitt had written about the Las Vegas shooting, right? Is debatably clickbait clickbait. But the information that he's running with in this comes from dubious origins. It's essentially just from Alex right now, this, we're winding down this deposition here. And I think it ends with a scathing revelation about how Info Wars work. Okay.

Kit Daniels (03:17:03.000)

I wrote the headline, in the end the lead sentence on the headset Jones, if I remember correctly, he showed me the text he got from his source

Bill Ogden (03:17:13.000)

that you don't know if it's even real. It could have been Dr. Jones with

Kit Daniels (03:17:18.000)

I seriously doubt that you don't know who it was. But I seriously doubt you do something like that, just by me working for him for someone

Bill Ogden (03:17:26.000)

to write multiple articles telling you to put stuff in and you can't back up. Right. And that he that nobody, maybe maybe the Embed for me to talk right at the time. Okay, I'm sorry. Okay, that nobody can corroborate. He's got you putting your name out there. But you would agree with me nothing about this article has anything to do with Antifa, other than the headline Jones forced you to put on the top of this paper?

Kit Daniels (03:17:53.000)

Well said Antifa literature, there's a difference.

Bill Ogden (03:17:57.000)

There's nothing in this article. Besides the, you know, the headline that Mr. Jones forced you to put on here that has anything to do with Antifa literature?

Kit Daniels (03:18:07.000)

Well, that was what the source told Jones

Bill Ogden (03:18:09.000)

didn't was my area, is it? Where's the screenshot? Where's the screenshot?

Kit Daniels (03:18:12.000)

Oh, no.

Bill Ogden (03:18:13.000)

So here's the thing. Why is that your headline if the article doesn't talk about it at all?

Kit Daniels (03:18:19.000)

That's a question for Jones.

Bill Ogden (03:18:21.000)

Okay. So it just to kind of break it down. Jones just kind of said, your writing this and kind of forced you to write this. This isn't something you wanted to write.

Kit Daniels (03:18:30.000)

My understanding is this is something he asked me to write. And he gave me the information off his phone.

Bill Ogden (03:18:36.000)

Did he ask you in a way where he would have been okay, if he said, No, I don't doubt it. Because when he has something like this, you do it? Yeah, he's

Dan (03:18:45.000)

my boss. So this may not be as relevant in a legal setting. But this clip is super important for my interest. Oh, yeah. I have found that the methodology for how Infowars works as a broadcast is that Alex will use Infowars articles, specifically their headlines to build his on air narratives. Oftentimes, these headlines do not accurately reflect the body of the article but are worded specifically in a way so that they can be useful to whatever conspiracy Alex is trying to prove or demonstrate on air. In some cases, these are just fully in house articles. And in other cases, there are articles from other outlets where the body of the article is copy pasted onto the Infowars site, and a wholly new headline is attached to make it more useful for Alex. The revelation that Alex is directly telling his Managing Editor what headlines to put on stories is basically the piece that completes the circle of Alex just making all this shit up. He's on air pretending to cover news stories, but in reality, it's just him yelling about headlines that he's told his employees to put on stories so he can more easily yell about them. This is a completely self contained information space where everything is just basically Alex's whim. It was pretty clear that this was what was going on. But it seems like a much more reasonable assumption to think that like the in house culture was just that employees knew what Alex wanted and then they provided it right? Maybe some subtle prodding happened, like, if you didn't take the right angle Rob do would scold you, or you wouldn't get as big of a raise. That's kind of what I assumed was happening. That would make sense. And it would be enough to get the message across. And ultimately, the people who did the right job would stick around, or the people who didn't fit that company culture, they wouldn't last. To me, it's an entirely different ballgame for Alex to be actively directing the production of the news he's covering and having an active role in the creation of the headlines, which are the only parts of the story he ever really covers. Given this workflow. Like, what story could Alex not manufacture? All he needs is an Infowars article to justify anything you might say on air, and he could just tell one of his mopey underlings to create that for him, and from kids telling of it these underlings know better than to not give Alex what he wants. Yep. That's fucked up.

Jordan (03:20:52.000)

It's, it's like, we reverse engineered this, just from watching the show, you know? And it's like, but even then you create a series of plausible sounding steps that would lead you to the result that you have to have somebody not only tell you that those steps were totally right. But to also be like, and guess what, there are fewer steps than you thought. It's just Alex. Yeah, he's fucking

Dan (03:21:17.000)

insane. Yeah, because like you just have demonstrable, observable things like Alex only really covers headlines ever, exactly. The headlines don't match the body of the article, usually suspicious. Oftentimes, there will be articles that match where they were originally posted with totally new headlines. Yep. These are all factual, observable things that lead you to the conclusion that this is an intentional strategy, right? That is ease, that creates ease for Alex to yell about things on it totally. You wouldn't want to jump to the conclusion that Alex is telling people what to write, because it makes it easier for him to yell about. Right? Because that would be like that's an honor and leap. But and here we are. In here we are we have just been given that leap. And I

Jordan (03:22:02.000)

would go so far as to say that the one thing you would not want your employee to tell under oath. Is that very fact. Yeah, yeah.

Dan (03:22:11.000)

So we have one last clip in this deposition. And it's actually a demonstration of how this process works. With the headline being used to essentially create the the broadcast,

Bill Ogden (03:22:23.000)

open that article, go to the last page where the tweet is, and read what Mr. Jones tweeted.

Kit Daniels (03:22:30.000)

Which articles?

Bill Ogden (03:22:31.000)

That one right there. Okay. Last page. Second, last page, so sorry. Sales keep you on track. Right. Oh, scavenger hunt. Just right, back to left. Jones is tweet, read it. Please

Kit Daniels (03:22:56.000)

live. ISIS takes responsibility for Vegas shooting as left celebrates massacre.

Bill Ogden (03:23:02.000)

Can you tell me why you put that in there?

Kit Daniels (03:23:06.000)

I don't know if I did put it in there myself. It might have been just we might have had a script at the time.

Bill Ogden (03:23:12.000)

Do you think anyone on the left was celebrating what happened in Las Vegas? I don't know. Personally, I don't know. Okay. So, in your opinion, you have zero evidence that anyone from the left was celebrating that massacre?

Kit Daniels (03:23:27.000)

I don't know. I mean, I didn't write this to be honest with you when it's in your article. Correct. But it's an embed for Twitter for Jones's radio program.

Bill Ogden (03:23:35.000)

Okay. So that's just an advertisement that happens to be on the same subject matter as your article.

Kit Daniels (03:23:41.000)

I mean, I don't know if advertisement is accurate. But I guess for lack of a better term.

Jordan (03:23:47.000)

If there isn't a better term

Kit Daniels (03:23:49.000)

that maybe that was a maybe this was the one was this public? It just might have been coincidence that they put. He's talking about that on the same day, this article.

Bill Ogden (03:24:01.000)

Okay. It could be coincidence that he had he asked you to write that article in that way. On that day, right.

Kit Daniels (03:24:08.000)

I don't understand the question.

Dan (03:24:11.000)

True. I wouldn't if I were him either. I would absolutely not understand that question. Yes, you just have a pretty clear, linear. A to B demonstration of Alex asked you to write this headline or told you to and you knew you couldn't not do it. And there is an embedded headline of his show from that day. It is covering this news story in the way he told you to cover it using your article as the justification for it. It's just it's it's a damning indictment of them as I mean, I think this whole deposition is really just a it's a horrific portrait of how they work internally.

Jordan (03:24:50.000)

Totally. I mean, that's, that's mind boggling to me. That is absolutely mind boggling to me. How is it? that you have been on these cases for so fucking long as one of the Info Wars as lawyers, but at no point in time did you think man, we should really explain to kids not to tell the truth?

Dan (03:25:15.000)

Or not try to Yeah, or or not try

Jordan (03:25:17.000)

to give up everything? Yeah. Is it that? Or do they really think that this is an acceptable way to act?

Dan (03:25:23.000)

I don't think so. I think that I think that Kitt didn't know any better than to record. He couldn't recognize the roads. He was being locked down. Right. And I think that, I think that comes back to that naivete. And I think that I think that the dominance and the stupidity that he manifests, comes out in a lot of ways. With him not recognizing some of the stuff that he's reporting is completely batshit. Right. And nonsense, right. And then the naivete comes in with the he doesn't realize, like, where are these questions are leading? Sure. And that combines to be like this. This is a weird, weird conversation they're having

Jordan (03:26:01.000)

it does seem like this is very much a dude who is just operated purely on like, reward, punishment scale his entire life, where it's just like, if I don't ask these questions, I get a reward. They give me a bonus. I mean, he might as well get $15,000 a year to not ask questions about

Dan (03:26:19.000)

this. I wouldn't be surprised.

Jordan (03:26:24.000)

But and then he's a pun in Oh, man. I just, this is so fucking sad. It is. It is so sad.

Dan (03:26:33.000)

It's a bummer all around. I think. I think it's a bummer, because this is obviously far from the only example of stories that get his shanked, right, this terrible totally, it's just the one where someone thought to sue them. And it's in I think there's, there's also a depressing aspect of it. That is, from the beginning of it, where this is the only person we've ever seen who has had any discernible sense that they need to do better, right, in response to this negative feed, hopefully, and it also doesn't matter. Nope. You know, it's, there's a futility to it that comes out. Yeah.

Jordan (03:27:13.000)

And I think one of the one of the weird or not weird, I think one of the things that makes it easier to feel sympathy for Kitt is just because regardless of his, you know, whatever, relative intelligence or preparation or anything along those lines, he's just not equipped to handle a conversation like this. Yeah.

Dan (03:27:34.000)

I mean, with follow up questions. Yeah. What do you mean,

Jordan (03:27:36.000)

it's just not what he's got in his bag of abilities. And so the problem here is that bill could not be more equipped. Right? So it's, it's very much a fucking night on a horse with a lance against a dude holding his underwears over his head, you know? And it's like, that's not fair. Even if it was Hitler holding his underwear over his head. You'd be like, well, this isn't a fair fight. I want Hitler to die. But I mean, this is just kind of excessive. Right?

Dan (03:28:08.000)

It feels that way. Yeah. And I think I think that's the other difficult part is the keeping in mind that it's Hitler. Well, metaphorically, metaphorically, yes. Yeah. It's like, how much sympathy Do you really need to expend for someone who is in a situation where he's weighing over his head totally, but also is part of a toxic, horrible infrastructure at Infowars that is led to so many people being hurt

Jordan (03:28:37.000)

and is ultimately ultimately what we're watching is nothing is not a beat down or anything like that. It is a man simply receiving consequences for his act, sure, or who has never had to

Dan (03:28:47.000)

feed back? Yes, yes. So Jordan, I gotta be honest with you. I'm gonna call an audible. I think we should split this into two episodes. I think so too. I think that we you should join us Friday for the Owen Shroyer dies. That's because, quite frankly, we're at three and a half hours or so right now. Oh, went on. I don't know what the fuck kind of time we're gonna be at. It's gonna be a while and I appreciate that our listeners do enjoy long episodes. Oh, yeah. But we have our limits. I think the prospect of a six hour episode is too much for anybody.

Jordan (03:29:19.000)

It's a little taxing.

Dan (03:29:20.000)

I'm so sorry, is a bait and switch. But I assure you Friday, we will pay off with the oh and the headliner. So yeah, I think I think we've, you know, it's it's weird. I think you say you say just about everything you need to say about this deposition by playing it. Yeah. And then also saying, oof. Yeah, I think there's there's a bit of analysis that you know, pointing some some stuff out, but I think it really speaks for itself, right in a lot of ways of just like, this is the level of care that is given when you're reporting something that has the potential to to drastically impact people's lives totally. And they don't care until there's they don't

Jordan (03:30:07.000)

know there's consequences. I mean, it is it is just so much of like, children. They're just children. Yeah. Nobody ever explained like that hot hurts.

Dan (03:30:19.000)

Well, and I can see spreads when other people touch hot it hurts. Yeah. So don't touch that. Don't touch them with

Jordan (03:30:25.000)

hot ibtc Just make sense. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. So

Dan (03:30:29.000)

we will be back, Jordan. Indeed we will for another little glimpse into the deposition world of Alex Jones. cronies. But until then, we have a website we do. It's

Jordan (03:30:39.000)

knowledge. fight.com. We're also on Twitter. We are on Twitter. It's at knowledge underscore fight and I go to bed Jordan. Yep.

Dan (03:30:44.000)

We'll be back. But until then, I'm Neo. I'm Leo m de ZX. Clark.

Jordan (03:30:52.000)

Mako shark. rampid.

Unknown Speaker (03:30:54.000)

Sure. And now here comes the sex robots.

Andy In Kansas (03:30:57.000)

Andy in Kansas. You're on the air. Thanks for holding. Well, Alex, I'm a first time caller. I'm a huge fan. I love your work.