Transcript/615: November 8, 2021?
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N-N-N-N-N-N-N-Knowledge Fight
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Damn and Jordan, I am sweating
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knowledgefight.com, it's time to pray
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I have great respect for knowledgefight
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knowledgefight
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I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys
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saying we are the bad guys, knowledgefight
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Damn and Jordan, knowledgefight
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Red Alert, Red Alert, Red Alert
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Need, I need money
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Red Alert, Red Alert, Red Alert
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Andy and Kansas, Andy and Kansas
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Stop it, Andy and Kansas, Andy and Kansas
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It's time to pray
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Andy and Kansas, you're on the air, thanks for holding us
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Hello Alex, I'm a first-time caller, I'm a huge fan
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I love your world
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knowledgefight
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N-N-N-N-N-N-Knowledgefight.com
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I love you
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Hey everybody, welcome back to Knowledge Fight, I'm Dan
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I'm Jordan
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We're a couple dudes, I'd like to sit around and worship at the altar of Selene
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and talk a little bit about Alex Jones
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Oh indeed, we are Dan?
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Yeah
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Dan?
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Jordan
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Quick question for you
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What's up?
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What's your bright spot?
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Why don't you go first?
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Well, my bright spot, Dan, and I never thought I would say this
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My bright spot today is the DMV
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Oh wow, you know what, before you tell whatever story you're gonna tell
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I want to say I've always enjoyed going to the DMV in Chicago
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Yes
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When I was in Missouri, it sucked, it was miserable
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but in Chicago, I have had nothing but positive experiences
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I swear to you, the place on diversity
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I had to go get my license renewed
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because it was expired by about a year
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and I had no idea because I was getting all those texts
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you know, the scam text from the DMV where it's like
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your license is expired, you need to
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I got that at the same time that I got the regular text
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It's hard to tell the difference now
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Yeah, yeah, yeah
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And I think that I don't know anybody who keeps up with like
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well, I got three months, you know
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It's something that just kind of goes in the back of your mind
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Yeah, no, you don't find out you need a new license
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until somebody's like, you can't buy that
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You need a valid license
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Yeah
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So the DMV on diversity, I went there
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There was a line out the door
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and I thought we were gonna be there for like two, three hours
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There were people who saw the line and then just left
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They banged it out in 25 minutes
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They got through like 50 people
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and it wasn't just that they were good
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It was that the whole group of people there
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it was a tiny little office
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were working in perfect harmony with each other
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It was bananas to me
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Everybody was having a good time
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Everybody's like, I'm useful
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This is what I'm, I'm just crushing this
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Everybody's smiling and talking to each other
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I talked to three other people who couldn't help
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but be like, this is the best DMV I've ever been to
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Yeah
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It's bananas
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The times I've been there
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they've been pretty pleasant people too
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Like, you know, you all have this like, you know
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character in your head of like grumpy
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Sure
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Mean DMV
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Oh, the Oak Park DMV is a pile of shit
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Yeah, that wasn't my experience here in Chicago
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I don't know
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Good on you, DMV
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It was amazing
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They did a great job
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Real happy for them
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That's awesome
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High marks
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Hooray
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Yeah
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My DMV, my bright spot is, I've got a new desk
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that I'm going to build after we get done recording
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Indeed
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And I'm very excited about that
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I've had this corner desk that came with mismatched wood
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Yep
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So one end of it is sort of a lighter, what would you call it?
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A cream kind of color?
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Yeah, I would say a little, a little taupe kind of color
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And then the other side is like a grayish brown
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Yes
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It's stupid
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I tried to get the, like replaced
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and they sent me the wrong one again
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Yeah, it looks a little bit like one of those red cars with a blue door
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Yeah, I've had this desk forever and I'm excited to throw it out
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and start fresh remodeling the office
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So I'm very excited about that
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It is the end of the era
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The desk has been with us since day one
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Yep
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Yep
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We'll miss you desk
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Not really
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Not much
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Nope
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So Jordan, today we have an interesting episode to go over
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Oh yeah
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I know that on our last episode I promised that we were going to talk about Alex Jones's response
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to Tucker Carlson's docuseries
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Sure
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But you know what, I kind of got to thinking about it
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I'm like, why?
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We know what he said
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Yeah
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He said he loves it
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Yeah, he's the best
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He's the greatest thing anybody's ever seen
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And it's all just, he made this possible
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Tells the truth, it's all because of Alex
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So instead what we're going to do is we're going to look at the present
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We're going to jump forward
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We're going to be talking about November 8th, 2021 Blackjack
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Oh, I didn't even come close to that
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Nope
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So I'm excited about that
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But before we get down to business, let's take a little moment to say thank you
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and hello to some new wonks
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Oh that's a great idea
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So first, uh, Light Switch Raives
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Thank you so much
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You are now policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thank you
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Thank you
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Next, Levi
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Thank you so much
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You are now a policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thanks, Levi
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Thank you
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Next, Ella
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Thank you so much
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You are now a policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thank you
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Ella
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Thank you
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Next, Wyatt
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Thank you so much
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You are now a policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thanks, Wyatt
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Thank you
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And finally, Jordan
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We got a technocrat in the mix
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Okay
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Say hello and thank you to a technocrat
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Alright.
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This is WWJDD equals what would Jordan and Dan do.
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Don't live by that advice, but thank you so much, you are now a technocrat.
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I'm a policy wonk.
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Crikey, mate, that's fantastic.
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Have yourself a brew.
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How's your 401k doing, bro?
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Alright, we gotta go full tilt boogie on this, Watson, alright?
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Let's just get down to business.
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We ain't making that money off that heroin.
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Why you pimps so good?
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My neck is freakishly large.
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I declare info war on you.
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Thank you so much.
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Yes!
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Thank you very much!
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And I wanted to say one quick thing before we get into the episode, and that is that
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I got some feedback on our last episode, the Tucker Carlson one, about using names of protesters.
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When I was making illustrations of people who have been arrested who were left-wing
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protesters.
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Right.
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And I want to say thank you to the person who pointed this out on Twitter, and that
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I didn't need to.
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I reflected on it a little bit, and the statistics that we talked about really do make the same
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point, and I didn't realize it was a bit of a blind spot, and the reason I'm calling this
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out is because I went back and I cut that out of the episode and reposted it.
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So that's not in the episode now, but it was, and in case anybody was curious about that
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or whatever.
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Yeah.
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And, you know.
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It wasn't removed secretly.
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It's a correction.
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Yeah, and, you know, try and do a little better in the future of being aware of that.
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Yes.
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It's a bit of a, I was caught up in the idea of like, if I point out these specifics, then
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it really helps drive home the point.
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Right.
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And that's not accurate.
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In a neutral reality, that is totally fine.
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In the current reality, you can't, yeah.
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So anyway, that's that.
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That's out of the way.
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So Jordan, we're going to start here on November 8th, and I can't tell you how much.
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I'm excited to talk about the present day, Alex talking about some important business,
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and so here is where Alex's head is at on this day.
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Big exclusive news, ladies and gentlemen.
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I saw this last week and I thought maybe he's just taking an unplanned vacation.
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We're going to sit back and wait and see what happens.
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Then on Friday, it came out that he had reportedly gotten sick after the third Pfizer shot because
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he's a good little globalist and took his third round.
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And that's when the scientists and experts tell you that the real side effects kick in
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pretty much guaranteed.
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And we have a lot of different sources, A, in Hollywood, but also in law enforcement.
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And they have reached out to us.
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OK, I can't do the show.
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There's too many people in here.
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Go to rebroadcast.
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God.
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La, la, la.
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How's he doing?
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Two months later FDA approved everybody who's 18 and over who got Jane Jada.
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Well, I guess we can't.
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That doesn't sound like Alex.
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I guess we can't do an episode about the ape.
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He just stormed out of.
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Damn it.
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I was really excited to do an episode about the ape.
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We were going to have a great episode about the ape.
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I was expecting us to go three or four hours.
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In fairness, Alex does come back, and it turns out he's talking about Gavin Newsom.
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That's who he's talking about.
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That's the whole thing.
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Yeah, he's talking about Gavin Newsom.
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Oh my God.
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Alex is in a very bad mood, so it looks like everyone's going to die once again.
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But Alex stormed off his show, and so I am going to put him in the corner.
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And I don't know what to do, Jordan.
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I guess you know what we could do.
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What could we do?
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I mean, we talked to Jon Ronson recently.
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We could play that for the people.
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I don't think anybody would want to hear that, Dan.
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That doesn't sound like something interesting at all.
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I'm liking this 80s broadcast we're doing right now.
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I feel like the public would be interested in hearing this.
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I don't think so, buddy.
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I don't think anybody's interested.
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Let me say this real quick.
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I'm glad that that went reasonably smoothly, because as soon as I hit the theme song, I
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realized that I forgot to tell you pretend we're doing a regular episode.
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Nope.
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Your improv skills are fantastic.
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I play off what energy I'm given.
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Yeah, so let's throw it to that.
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We were thrilled to have a conversation with Jon Ronson about some of his experiences with
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Alex and various thoughts and perceptions.
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Could not be cooler.
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Could not be a cooler guy.
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Is awesome to do.
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Yep.
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So enjoy that, and we'll be back on Friday.
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See you then.
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Hey, folks.
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Today, we are thrilled to be joined, having a little conversation with us as the author
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of Them, Adventures with Extremists.
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I've heard of him before.
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Sure, sure.
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The Psychopath Test.
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Another...
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Sure, sure.
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Read that one.
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And then also there's a new podcast that he's got out that people should check out, Things
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Fell Apart.
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Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us, Jon Ronson.
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Hello.
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Yeah.
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Hey.
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It's such a delight to be among people who have such an incredible depth of knowledge
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about Alex Jones.
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I like that that is being treated as a social positive, because for me, generally, it's
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like this guy knows too much about Alex Jones.
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I got to get away from him.
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So it's nice that it's helpful.
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Yeah, but there's been times in my life when I've shared that obsession, so I understand
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this.
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Yeah.
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I empathize.
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And you had that series from back in the early 2000s, The Secret Rulers of the World, I believe.
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Right.
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Was that just the one episode?
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I can't remember.
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No, it was a series.
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I was writing a book called Them.
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What happened was I had this brainwave in the mid-90s that I was no sick of growth in
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conspiracy culture and also a relationship between conspiracy culture and extremism.
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Some militant Islamists had talked to me about the secret room and some klansmen.
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So I thought, I want to do something about the rise of conspiracy theories.
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But then I thought, well, that's a really hard thing to do, because most of the time
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they just sit behind their computers.
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They write newsletters.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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So how do you make that interesting?
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And then I had a brainwave, I thought, I know they all believe that the secret room from
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inside which the shadowy Kabbalah secretly ruling the world, I'll hook up with them and
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we'll travel the world looking for the secret room.
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And when we find it, we'll climb up the jade pipes and get in and confront the red-handed
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goog about their covert wickedness.
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Inevitably we will be disappointed when there is no actual room or the room is boring.
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That is like if Ponce de Leon is like, oh, we're going to find this fucking fountain
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of youth on a bat or like to just be spiteful towards his buddies, like, oh, we're going
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to find it.
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Ponce de Leon finds a fountain that keeps you 80 years old forever.
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It's like, well, it's a fountain.
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Well, I remember actually when I first came up with the idea, I was at a party and I was
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talking to a documentary producer and he said, like, what's your next thing?
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And I said, I'm going to write this book and I told him what I just told you.
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And he just looks at me like annoyed, like faintly annoyed and said, but there is no
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secret room.
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And I thought, if I had allowed him to like, you know, get onto my skin, I would never
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have done the journey.
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It was like, it's one of the greatest journeys of my life.
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On one episode of that, you went with Alex Jones to Bohemian Grove, and I'm sure we'll
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get into that a bit, but also in one of the other episodes, you went to Bilderberg, right?
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You went with the Jim Tucker, who's another big friend of Alex Jones's.
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Right.
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Jim Tucker.
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So most of these like militant Islamists and Ku Klux Klan and Sloan who were telling me
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about the secret room, they said it was called the Bilderberg group.
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I kept saying this, and one of them said, and there's a guy in Washington DC, a sports
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reporter who's dedicated his life to tracking down the Bilderberg group.
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You should contact him, his name's Big Jim Tucker.
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So I did, I went to Washington to meet Big Jim Tucker, who said, he said, yeah, you got
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me in a good time.
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My mole inside Bilderberg has told me, well, he was right.
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He was an accountant, he said it was an accountant for one of the people who was going to Bilderberg.
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He said, yeah, I know where they're meeting, they're meeting at the Cesar Park Hotel and
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Golfing Resort in Sintra, Portugal, and I'm going to go over there and get in.
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And I said, can I come?
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And he said, yeah, so we flew to Sintra.
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Yeah.
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It's, I find looking at like Jim Tucker's things that Alex has done, because he's been,
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he was in, I believe, Endgame.
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He was in Endgame.
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Yeah.
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They have a big piece with them going to Bilderberg.
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It seems like, did he let you wear his hat is the only question I have for you.
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It's a great hat.
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You should have taken it.
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He's got 30 more.
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He does have a fantastic hat and his office hat definition blinds.
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That's perfect.
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The chain smokers, you always have that light coming in through the smoke.
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Sorry about that.
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Right.
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Sorry for interrupting your question.
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Yeah, it was, it's amazing that he, and great that he lasted so long, honestly, between
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the time that I met him in DC and the couple of months later, I was going to be sitting
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in Portugal.
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I was just thinking, don't die.
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He was like chain smoking.
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Drunk all the time.
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I don't know if it's a good thing he lasted as long as he did, considering he wrote for
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the Spectator and you know, like that's kind of an antisemitic rag of a publication.
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Well, all of that was an undercurrent that I hadn't, that I didn't know.
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It was the spotlights.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I didn't know that undercurrent.
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People have said, I must have known him and I'm being so naive, but actually when I knew
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I was going to go with this guy to Portugal and we were going to try and sneak into the
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secret meeting of the secret rulers of the world, I thought, you know what, I'm not going
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to do any research.
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I'm just going to like, go, I don't want to find out what Bilderberg is.
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I want to know the mystery of it, so I just went along with it.
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I think that's probably a better way to approach it.
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I think that probably gives you an ability to not bias yourself at a time with like a
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decision that this is stupid and the person I'm going with is a monster.
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Hey, let's face it.
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We might find this fucking secret room.
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Who knows?
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What if we did?
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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Because the guys don't figure it all out before they go on it.
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The Scooby-Doo people.
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That's why I was taking my inspiration.
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Maybe it's a ghost.
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Maybe it's a guy in a mask.
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I have a hard time writing a screenplay right now about a journalist and a Nazi going to
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find gold or something like that.
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That's what's going on here.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So, we never ended up infiltrating the Bilderberg Group because we were chased away by the henchmen.
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Sure.
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I remember that clip from that episode that was very high tension.
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Yeah.
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It was a facetious clip.
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No, I'll tell you, it was a lot more high tension.
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In the book, in them, I really captured the horror of it.
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The footage doesn't do justice to the horror that was going on inside my head.
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I mean, a chase ensued.
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I left the Bilderberg Group to get a chase ensued.
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I was being chased.
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Now, initially, I was going 30 miles an hour and so was he.
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But I tell you what, if I'd gone faster, he'd have gone faster.
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That's more of a tale than a chase, so, you know, I mean, if we're going to get it right,
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that's all.
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Yeah.
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But I started, but what I don't say in the documentary, because we just didn't capture
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it, but I detail in that, is I phoned the British Embassy and I said, I'm being, I'm
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a journalist.
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I'm being tailed right now by a lancier belonging to the Bilderberg Group.
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And she went, go on.
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So she's, at one point she said to me, the good news is if you know you're being followed,
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they're probably just trying to intimidate you and the dangerous ones are the ones you
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don't know are following you.
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And I thought, well, she's wise.
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I thought, A, this is the British Embassy in Portugal.
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Like it didn't strike me as Tinker Tail or something, and B, I thought, what if, what
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if they are the dangerous ones and I just happen to be naturally good at spotting them?
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Or what if the dangerous ones know that you'll think that they're not dangerous if you know
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they're following you?
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Hanging out with someone like Jim Tucker will probably introduce that level of paranoia.
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All right, John, your name is Terence.
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You need to get to the airport in 30 seconds.
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You're going to be gone for a long time.
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Your old life is over.
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I'll tell you what, I was so scared.
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I was willing to abandon the mission entirely and just drive back to England.
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You know what?
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I think I was conflating that incident that you had with Jim Tucker and the Alex getting
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tailed in Endgame because he got tailed in Endgame and then it ended up just being someone
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who was going to like Chili's.
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It was not someone tailing him at all.
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I think I mixed those up in my memory.
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Right, right, right.
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Do you remember a time with Alex that he was like in a hotel room and he was like freaking
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out and saying what the phones were about?
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Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
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They pulled the fire alarm.
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He was reporting from Chantilly, Virginia, I believe, to one of the Bilderberg conferences
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and he was convinced that the globalists had pulled the fire alarm in order to spook him
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and get him out of his hotel room or something and I don't know, I just think someone pulled
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the fire alarm.
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I don't know.
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I would argue it was his crew that pulled the fire alarm because nothing was happening
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in the hotel room.
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Yeah, otherwise it's pretty boring visually just to be like Jim Tucker and a piece of
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paper.
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The first time I met Alex at his home, well the second time, the first time I met him
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was at Waco and then the second time was at his home and there was a guy doing some work
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on the telephone pole outside and Alex, 26 years old, this wasn't like the Alex of today
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but leapt out and said, what are you doing, what are you doing, who sent you here?
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Just going to do a real thorough interrogation of this just worker.
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The late period Clint Eastwood character.
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I'll tell you my favorite, one of those incidents though, I'm jumping forwards, was when we
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were meeting at Bohemian Grove and we checked into the motel the night before the Occidental
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Lodge and Alex and Mike, his producer, and Kelly, his then girlfriend, his girlfriend's
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not yet wife.
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He's so racist, he will only go to the Occidental Lodge.
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That's how racist he is, sorry for interrupting, sorry.
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So we're waiting, so we've checked in and we're waiting and it's getting dark and he
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doesn't show up and then his beds aren't slept in and then the next morning he phoned to
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this, it's like fog and I was like, you know, so what happened?
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And he was like, yeah, well we're traveling along these lanes and the fog rolls in and
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then there's all these people just standing on the side of the road, just standing there
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staring at us.
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It's just like, it's like the fog in the winding lanes, I guess, people standing on the side
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of the road, just staring at them, was felt like, you know, just a little jab on the sandwich.
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It's interesting that that is kind of, that to me reads as something that's been consistent,
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you know, like just this preoccupation with everybody is looking at him and, but nowadays
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it's transformed into like, he seems to believe that demons can jump into people.
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And so like when he's out in public, he'll see somebody and then they'll go baa at him
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and it's a demon that has come into their body.
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Right, as opposed to an Austin Hicks.
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Yeah, yes.
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Yes, exactly.
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He'll be at a grocery store and someone would be like, I love the devil and it's because
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a demon has jumped inside them that apparently only he can see or something, I don't know.
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But yeah, that tracks, you know, like that kind of a thinking of everything revolves
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around, I mean, it is just narcissism at a certain point.
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I mean, it's almost like he has to become famous in order to justify believing that
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everybody's always staring at him.
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Whoa.
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You know, that's insightful.
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Did I get too deep for you Dan?
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Yeah, I gotta go.
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I'm the comic relief here.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, that just reminds me, an old friend was an artist, he became famous and her boyfriend
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once said to me, no one had ever prepared so hard to be famous.
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Oh, wow.
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And that's kind of, in a way, I don't know if that's true about Alex.
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I think Alex was just destined to be famous.
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So will I tell you about how we finally met?
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So, okay, so after the failed Bilderberg infiltration, I mean, that's a much longer
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story.
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Yes.
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But you did end up, I'm sorry to get off track here, just real fast, you did end up interviewing
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some people who went to Bilderberg, right?
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I mean, like, yeah, you like Jim Tucker, his whole thing is like, nobody who goes there
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will talk to anybody.
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And it categorically isn't true.
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I mean, you interviewed some people even on film.
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Yeah, I interviewed one of the founding members of Bilderberg, a man called Dennis Healy,
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Lord Healy, who became the exchequer, whatever it's called in Britain, like the finance secretary
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in the Labour government in Britain in the 1970s.
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So he was like a very powerful person.
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And yeah, he just told me the whole thing, like, to say, well, I'm going to get the story
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that's about to unfold and undercut.
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I mean, even so, even if you do meet somebody who's there and he's willing to talk to you,
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that's still like, you can still fail to break in, you know?
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Yeah, of course.
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Yeah.
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But of course, like he didn't tell me the whole thing, but he told me a lot of stuff,
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which I think what I meant when I said that was he told me a lot of stuff, which actually
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confirmed some of the suspicions of the conspiracy theorists, particularly to say that we were
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striving for a one world government is exaggerated, but not totally unfair.
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Yeah.
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That's what he said to me.
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He said those of us, he said Bilderberg was set up in the aftermath of World War II and
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it was a reaction to Hitler.
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And they thought, and this has proved to be a bad idea, that business, putting power in
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the hands of business was a better idea.
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What, the Labour government in the seventies believed that giving more money to business
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was a good idea?
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Yeah.
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So weird.
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Right.
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Well, this was back, this was like the fifties.
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This was nice before this happened.
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Yeah.
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So it was the idea that the stability of the world was better in the hands of Heinz and
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Nokia and SmithKline, Beech and these are, these are all companies that did go to Bilderberg
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and the Washington Post companies, not politicians, politicians were insane like Hitler.
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So that, that was their idea, which isn't, you know, really any different to what the
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conspiracy theorists think in its broadest terms.
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Sure.
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Sure, sure, sure.
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It's just so much more banal because it's really just them being like, how can we make
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the most money, essentially, you know, it's not like, let's drink the children's
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blood.
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It's just, well, we would like to extract more money from here.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
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But then I asked, I asked Dennis Healy, he said that he was a, he was a very famously
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keen photographer.
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So I said, did you ever take any photographs inside Bilderberg?
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He said, oh yeah, yeah, lots, lots of photographs.
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And I said, can I see some of them?
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And he, and he looked at me and he went, no, fuck off.
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So I, so I didn't, I never did get to infiltrate.
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When I, when I asked him if they were secret, he said, we're not secret, we're private.
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He said, no one's going to speak freely if they think they're going to be quoted by
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prurient journalists like you, who think you have knowledge of something that you have
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no knowledge of.
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Oh boy.
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Yeah, I've heard, I've heard that explanation before.
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The politicians are crazy.
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I know, right.
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So yeah, it was a power grab.
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And maybe they were idealists too, but it was, yeah, it was a kind of globalist power
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grab, I guess.
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Is that fair?
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Tell me if you think I'm saying anything that's like too much.
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No, no, no.
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I think that there's, there is that reality.
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And then there's the surreality of the stories that are told about things like the distinction
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between like a one world government that is basically along the lines of, you know, not,
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not a total one world government, but an idea of international agreements and a body that
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is able to step in when there are crimes against humanity that a country is carrying out or
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something like that.
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That's the distinction.
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The real world is generally the, you know, an international body that can enforce international
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laws.
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And the fairytale version of it, the conspiracy theories tell is one central thing that is
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run by Bill Clinton that seeks to crush guns.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Where during that long weekend, once a year, they, they plan everything out and they, yeah.
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Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And for the last 40 years, they've just been preoccupied with taking away right-wing people's
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guns.
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They've been trying to do that and can't figure out how to do it.
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And they choose the presidents, they choose the prime ministers.
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That's, that's an interesting thing.
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So I asked another Bilderberg person who spoke to me, I said, so what about this choosing
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the, the president's choosing the prime ministers?
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And they sort of took that as a compliment, like, you know, we're good at spotting up
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and coming politicians.
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And the idea is to offer them what they consider to be sort of wise words of advice.
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One story I was told was Margaret Thatcher in like 1977, I think, or around that time,
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two years before she became prime minister, went to Bilderberg, was, was quiet as a mouse,
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didn't say anything that evening, somebody told her that like, she's ruining a great
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opportunity for networking here.
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The next day, she gave like a big speech.
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And then when she went to New York, and like everyone was wows, and when she went to New
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York, like other Bilderberg people, like, you know, drove her around and introduced
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her to people.
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I mean, how, like, so that's, I think the reality of Bilderberg, which is a million
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miles away from, Listen, Iron Lady, you're going to really
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need to up your evil game if you want to become prime minister.
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So give a fucking speech.
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Okay.
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Right.
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That's, you know, in the same ballpark as like a business seminar, like people, people
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who have lots of connections within, you know, things can talk to other people who have connections
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like, Hey, this person's pretty cool.
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Or, you know, that that's, that's not the same thing as, you know, being like, haha,
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she will rule.
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Right.
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Right.
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Right.
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Like Ted, or like a media, like a media club, like the Soho House, you know, that's, that's
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where those things happen.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I, I think that that distinction is kind of tough to draw sometimes.
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You know, the, the area where the themes of some of the things that conspiracy theorists
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say are, you know, fairly spiritually accurate in some ways, but the particulars of the narratives
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and the details are generally way off base.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So you think of like, Oh, billionaires, evil billionaires choose the leaders of the world.
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But then you look at the American system and it's like, well, you can't become a, an elected
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official without a lot of money behind you.
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At least on a high level.
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On a high level.
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Yeah, exactly.
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At least on a high level.
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So who's giving them that money?
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It's a small number of people and it feels like, Oh, well if, if they give you the most
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money, then they have chosen that you will be the next elected official.
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You know what I'm saying?
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Yeah.
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You know, it's funny.
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Obviously I'm agreeing with everything that you say, and I think the reason why you had
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that sort of slightly more, you know, sort of hesitant response to what I said is because
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you know, you're very much in the world of, you know, like you watch fucking info wars.
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It's not good.
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You know, for me, for me, the distinction, so you're very much in that world.
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We started this podcast, I knew Jon Ronson would say, you listen to too much fucking
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info wars.
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I knew it.
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You're very much like your brain right now is immersed in the irrationalities of conspiracy
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thinking whereas because I'm a little bit removed from it right now because I've been
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doing a show about the history of the culture wars, which doesn't really get into that stuff
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except for in one episode.
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For me, the distinction between what the builder book group actually is and what the conspiracy,
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you know, what that, you know, the conspiracy, the way that they fantasize it, it's so clear
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that I feel I can sort of say those things without.
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Right.
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Right.
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You live in the real world.
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Yeah.
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I do have, I do have too many of my toes in that, like, that Alex Jones world.
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That is definitely true.
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And I think also the distinction is that I've only been able to access a lot of these things
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through claims that are made and then looking at the specifics or looking at the documents
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and things.
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And whereas you have spoken to people and you've been to these places, so I think you
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have much more of a familiarity with a lot of this than I do.
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With the sort of reality.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I think that allows a little bit of a easier speaking than, than some, like from
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my perspective.
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Yeah.
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No, I totally get it.
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You're right.
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And maybe I was a bit too glib before.
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Oh no, no, no.
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Be as glib as you like.
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I don't think so.
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This is our show.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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But the way that you're completely immersed in Alex's world and so on, I think is the
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best thing about being a journalist.
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Like when you're on a story and you totally, you know, you become a world expert on that
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subject.
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You've been doing the one thing for quite a long time.
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Like what I tend to do is like, I enter the world for like a year or maybe, I don't know,
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something like that.
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And then I move on to another one, but you've been in Alex's world for a long time.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I didn't plan to.
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It was, I think I probably intended something along the lines of what you're describing,
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maybe like a year, year and a half, but he's just so fascinating.
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He's he's a Rubik's cube of insanity and weirdness.
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And he always surprises, like it's, you know, there'll be like, just the other day he was
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talking about how maybe, you know, if your family is pro vaccine, maybe it's time for
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you to kill your family.
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Yeah.
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Like, yeah.
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Jesus.
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Just straight up.
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Who says stuff like that?
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Do you know what else?
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Do you know what else?
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The worst part is it's cause he was in a bad mood.
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Yeah.
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He was in a bad mood.
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So he told you that maybe you should kill your family the next day.
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The next day.
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He's in a better mood.
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To be fair.
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You're going to be fine.
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To be fair.
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He said things happen within a family.
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Sure.
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It's a family matter.
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Yes.
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It's a family matter.
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I've got, I've got, okay.
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I've got two questions to ask you.
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Sure.
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First, do you think, like, I'm not, like I'm certain that his, the, the darkness is, has
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got deepest.
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Oh yeah.
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Oh yeah.
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For the years.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think it was a different Alex Jones.
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Yeah.
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That's, that's something we wanted to ask you a ton of questions about.
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For sure.
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Sure, sure, sure.
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And it's something that jumped out to me when I re-watched the episode where you and him
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went to the Grove and it's just, it was shocking to see that much less dark Alex, you know.
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Yeah.
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To be reminded of that.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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And that surprised me and because at the time I was spending time with, you know, Nazis
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at the Klan.
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What a fun thing to say.
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At the time I was spending all of my days with the Nazis, we were summering together.
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But my point is that like coming in, Alex Jones, I mean, Alex Jones still is a long
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way away from the Klan, but, but I put him in a, in a wildly different ballpark.
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It was like, Alex was a complete, you know, so that leads me to the second question, and
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then maybe I should talk about,
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Oh please, please.
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Sure.
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Okay.
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But my second question then is like at the time, like he wasn't an easy person to be
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around, like, cause he's so full on all the time.
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He's one of the most tireless people I've ever met.
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He seems like he might be annoying and tiring to be around.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I'm, you know, introverted and I get, what's the word, I get kind of, I get sensory
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over that.
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So it's not easy to be around Alex for too long.
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But, but sometimes I look back and I think, well, what positive qualities did I find in
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Alex?
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And the only one really, other than the facts, that wasn't meant to be.
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It's a good, it's a good answer to the facts.
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It's very funny.
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It's very funny.
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Of his good qualities, there is one.
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Yes.
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Right.
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Well, he, so, well, one thing I would say is that, you know, it's always, it's kind
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of mixed up with, with me in one way, because our infiltration of Bohemian Grove was just
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one of the greatest nights of my life.
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So it's, so it's hard to not feel fondness towards the person who you see.
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Sure.
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Sure.
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Of course.
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You know, the most incredible night of your life with.
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But so, so I do, I, you know, I've felt bad about the fact that I've had to do more critical
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stories about him in the last couple of years on a personal level, really, for that reason.
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But the other positive quality is it was this kind of archery skills.
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And I wonder, like, amid all the, like all the bad, like when you're watching him all
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the time.
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Did you, hold on.
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Did you say archery skills?
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No.
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Oh, I thought for sure he said archery skills.
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I thought for sure he said, I was like, holy shit, he's a great bowman.
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Oh no.
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Although it didn't Josh Allen in his story in the New York Times writes about Alex going
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big game hunting in, in some, somewhere.
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He does.
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But I would.
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Oratory skills.
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We're, we're from, we're American.
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Sorry about that.
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We're terrible at the hearing words.
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The reason that it blew my mind that there was a possibility is that Alex is such a gun
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guy that I feel like he'd be offended by a bow and arrow.
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Aren't there those things, like what are they called, like crossbow?
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That's closer.
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Yeah.
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That's closer to a gun.
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I can see Alex with a crossbow.
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Yeah.
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And I agree with you a hundred percent about the oratory skills.
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Like I think like even going back to our earliest episodes, it's like a caveat that I always
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have to kind of remind myself as like, he's very talented at a thing.
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And unfortunately the thing is bad.
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Yeah.
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It's being used in a very bad way, but if you, if you just take it as a ethically neutral
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thing, I don't know if I've ever seen anybody who has the ability to say nothing for so
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long with so much passion.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Um, it's true.
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Yeah.
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I remember it about in 2001, I went on, um, that C-SPAN show, Book Notes, and we were
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talking about Alex Jones, who wasn't at all famous then, and I said the same thing.
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I said, like, he's as, he's as talented as Bill Hicks.
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Like if he wasn't into such crazy stuff, he could be Bill Hicks, which then had a ripple
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effect.
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Yes.
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This is your new show.
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You've got a new episode.
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It's about that one time you said that thing.
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You did it.
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It's your fault.
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Entirely.
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I don't know if I started, I don't know if I started the Bill Hicks, but I, uh, definitely
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I wanted to actually ask you about that C-SPAN interview, because it's something that I've
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thought about quite a bit.
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Um, and in that interview, you say that after going to Bohemian Grove, you told Alex that
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he was playing with fire because he was misrepresenting what you guys had experienced there and saying
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it was like this demonic thing and playing up those elements of it.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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That, to me, his response you said was, I'm not going to tell the listeners that.
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Yes.
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So that indicates awareness.
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Right.
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I based my whole idea of Alex from that conversation for decades afterwards.
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I said, I don't know if I used words like playing with fire, but I said that you said
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I've heard you say things that we both know aren't true.
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Um, and Alex said, you know, you know that I know that I'm not going to tell my listeners
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that.
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That seems awful.
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Yeah.
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So, well, so for decades I was asked, you know, and you can imagine I've been asked
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this question a lot, like, does he mean it or is he faking it?
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And I always said, Oh, I think he's faking it.
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And I would cite that example sometimes.
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But when I met Josh Owens, like five years ago, um, who was Alex's cameraman who became
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the whistleblower.
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Um, I said that to him and he was just, um, he just looked at me baffled and said, no,
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Alex believes every word.
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I think you got it, Josh, Josh was with, has been with Alex, like I was with Alex every
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day for years.
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But you got to think that probably, you know, that was back in 2000, right?
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When you went to Bohemian Grove and you would have had this conversation, I bet he was much
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looser lipped.
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You know, maybe, maybe he didn't, he didn't have that million dollar empire to protect.
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And at the same time, who knows how the years went on convincing yourself of your own story.
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Yeah.
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I mean, the, the classic, you know, be careful what mask you wear because it might become
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your face kind of thing, you know?
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Yeah.
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And also like, I've, I've, I've often had the half thoughts, which I haven't completely
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fully realized as a thought, which is the, um, you know, Alex is, is a narcissist.
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And narcissists have a different relationship to truth than I think other people, the people
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who aren't nice or people, people who don't have that disorder, no, I don't quite know
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what that means.
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Like, does that mean that we're judging him by the wrong criteria?
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We're judging him by our criteria, like he's a fucking alien and shit.
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Like if it's like, if he gets put on trial, we can only have 12 psychopaths sitting there
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being like, well, yeah, of course you kill your brother again.
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So you can see that guy.
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We saw the psychopath test.
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But isn't this an interesting thing to think about?
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Yes, absolutely.
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Like Death Alex, like if, if there, if there's, if there's no wall between truth and lying
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in Alex's mind, like if, if lying doesn't make him feel bad, um, then should we be asking
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a different question to, does he know it's the truth and I don't quite know what that
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question is, but it's something along the lines of like, does Alex, is, is, is, is there
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a state of mind where lying is such, is such a, not an ethical concern.
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And it also seems fun at times.
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It also seems fun at times, the lies.
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It's exciting.
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It's more fun to lie about babies getting eaten than it is to say that the budget is
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going down.
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Like, you know.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I agree with the, the, that point you made though, with the, um, the distinction between
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whether he knows he's lying or not, like the truth, uh, I, I also think that that's probably
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the wrong place to look at it or to touch him by.
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Yeah.
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It's almost irrelevant.
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Cause there's his truth.
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If it doesn't matter to him.
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Yeah.
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If it doesn't matter to him, then.
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Then the truth is lies are just a thing.
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The truth is whatever matters to him.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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And so the reason I brought up that point from the C-SPAN interview was that also in
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that interview, you talk about the, what was it?
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The Phantom Patriot, the guy who ended up a year later going to Bilderberg with a bunch
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of guns.
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Oh, sorry.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Uh, as a result of, uh, being an Alex fan and seeing dark secrets, the documentary that
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Alex put out.
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And that's kind of where I think the most interesting part is like whether he's telling
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the truth or not actively or aware of what he's doing or not.
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He knows he knew enough to know that he wasn't telling the whole story to his listeners.
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And he probably was aware that this guy showed up at Bohemian Grove because of his content.
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Like does, do you think that he's aware of that?
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That connection?
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Oh, sure.
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He knows, he knows, he knows that he has unstable listeners and he, well, he riles them, right?
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I mean, what's the famous Sandy Hook line?
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Like somebody needs, what, what, what did he say?
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Uh, he said a lot of things.
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I think somebody needs to go investigate that.
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Oh yeah.
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That amazed, that, that really surprised me when I heard your podcast with the Sandy Hook
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lawyer that he spoke about it hundreds of times.
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Yeah.
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He, he, he made a meal of, of that.
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Even though the thing that comes to mind with the, someone needs to go check this out with,
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that was also what he said about Comet Ping Pong, the pizza gate.
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So yeah.
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Oh yeah.
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Oh, don't get me wrong.
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Like all that stuff I was saying about truth and lying was just thinking about it from
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a sort of psychological, sure, sure, sure.
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About trying to just try to work out that thought process, which I'm sorry, this podcast
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adheres to the Goldwater rule, so we can't allow you to do that.
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I've gone, I've gone back and forth, what is your, well, except we haven't because Alex
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was diagnosed as a true, that's true.
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I always just wonder, like, I think the most important question for me has always been
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the, the level to which he's aware the influence that he has that leads people to do bad things
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like the Phantom Patriot or any number of other folks who have, like that couple in
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Las Vegas who shot a cop, like the, I, I always am like curious because I don't know.
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There's a guy on Death Row, right?
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Maybe it's, maybe it's one of the couple, but there's a guy on Death Row who I wrote
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to and said, can I, can I interview you about, you know, how, if and how, because I think
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it was one of those stories about, you know, we think he was inspired by Alex Jones.
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So I wrote to him and talked to his lawyer and Eddie D didn't want to talk to me.
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Understandable.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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That, that connection is really interesting.
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I mean, you literally wrote the book on being publicly shamed.
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So
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Because I think, I think the feelings that one should have or one you'd expect to have
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is like, Oh, that was bad.
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I shouldn't do that.
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I shouldn't do that.
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That was bad.
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That guy went to the place I told the story about with guns and he was going to kill a
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bunch of old people.
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This is no good.
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I should probably, but that doesn't happen.
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And that's fascinating to me.
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Oh yeah.
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Yeah.
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No.
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I mean, I, I've not seen any evidence of, of him caring about the consequences.
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Wow.
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I mean, if you, no, no, no, but you know, that's kind of why I was asking you, I was
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wondering if,
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Yeah.
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Well, I mean, remember with me, it was like smaller stuff.
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Like he was definitely lying about, about aspects of human growth.
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He said that we may have witnessed, I mean, I think he did say may, but we may have witnessed
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an actual human sacrifice.
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Yeah.
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He said, he said he went to an expert in anatomy that said it was the size of a baby.
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The effigy.
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Why?
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Right.
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What?
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Oh, and then he said that, now look, I wasn't with him the whole time, but in fact for quite
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a lot of the time I wasn't with him, but, um, because he went, he infiltrated separately
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to me as you know, I went up the drive, giving the security guard to kind of, I rode the
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world's wave and I just went in fire, I just went in fire at the end of it.
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Completely unnecessarily, but amusingly.
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I'm going to try the front door.
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Okay.
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Goodbye.
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Yeah.
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And, uh, um, so I wasn't with him the whole time, but he said, he said at one point we
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overheard these two old men.
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One of them said to the other one, yeah, we're going to get it elected.
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And I said, Alex, come on, that's what you want to refer to people.
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And you could hear that exact statement anywhere, like that's, you could hear that at a coffee
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shop.
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Right.
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Exactly right.
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That's very true.
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But anyway.
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I actually just had a thought about your guys' infiltration of Bohemian Grove.
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Like you went in the front and Alex used a little bit of subterfuge and I've always thought
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like, wow, he could have just walked in the front, but probably he couldn't, like he probably
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couldn't control himself.
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Like he'd probably like act really weird.
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I mean, he would see the security guard and be like, you better kick me out of here.
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Otherwise I won't have a fucking show.
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You better kick me out!
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Yeah.
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Give me money!
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Oh my guckin' you're matching.
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Yeah, you're right.
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I mean, I remember, it's funny, I have a lot of gaps in my memory of my life.
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Tell me about it.
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That every moment with Alex, I remember so clearly, so I remember that moment very clearly
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when he decided not to walk up the drive with us, so what happened was we met, we met Rick
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the lawyer, go on, sorry, yeah, so we met this lawyer who had infiltrated the Grove
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and was a very preppy man, Northern Californian guy, and he says, because Alex had planned
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to rent a boat, moor it, climb up the mountain, and Rick the lawyer said, if you go that way,
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you're going to get yourself killed, and Alex, this is one of my favourite moments, Alex
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wrote down, going in that way, dashed, killed, because he was like, right, so we can read,
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we do know that, so Rick said, no, the way to get into Bohemian Grove is dress preppy,
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go to the local Eddie Bauer, buy yourself some preppy clothes and just walk up the drive
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looking like you belong, and he said, and you know what, I'll come with you, I'll do
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it with you, so that was the plan, and we went to Eddie Bauer, and Alex went in looking
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like, you know, looking like Alex, and came out looking like the great captain, well,
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I'd slightly exaggerate that, you know, and then him and Mike practiced being preppy.
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That's one of my favourite parts of your film, like, they do multiple takes of Alex talking
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about nanotech, and he says to Mike, because yeah, I want to know your opinion of nanotechnology,
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we've been getting these microprocessors down to the size of a molecule, when do you think
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the, I can't remember the next word, optimization process will occur, and he turns to Mike and
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Mike said, I agree. He was not great at improv. But do you know what happened to Mike? Do
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you know what happened to Mike? I know that recently he's posted a number of really old
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videos of Alex on YouTube, but I don't know, I don't know other than that. I assumed he
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was on Death Row. Quite the opposite, oak and tret. Now look, this is a story that came
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from Alex, so bear that in mind. But this one I think has a rig of truth in this, and
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I'd like to know, I mean, there must be somebody listening to this who will be able to answer
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it. So Mike, apparently his father died, he inherited the ranch, they struck oil on this
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ranch, and now he's the richest man in this county.
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Wow.
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Right, good things happen to good people. You know, that's what I was just thinking.
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Normally I can't remember his surname, I can't remember his surname. Mike Hanson of course.
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So he was like, Alex is probably our first producer.
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Yeah, he was around like, even when, there's a video that he posted of Alex like, I think
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even pre, or maybe during the like, the local access TV days, you know, they clearly had
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some long-standing connection. But like, I love the two of them, because when they're
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doing this practicing being preppy, they're walking down like, a porch. They're walking,
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and they need to go back to where they started to do a second take.
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Hit your marks, hit your marks!
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It's remarkable.
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No, you can't do a take coming the other direction.
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It's like practicing Sorkin dialogue, you can't do a walk and talk.
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It's a wedding rehearsal.
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I said to them, I said to them, like, have you got any contingency plan for if you get
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caught? And he said, yes, yes we do. And I was like, well, he said, if they, you know,
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if we get caught, I'm going to say, don't come any closer.
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Good, good, good.
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I'm going to yell boo and then run away.
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I said to him, don't come any closer, that's not what that means.
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I do think it was wise of you to advise him not to bring a gun. That was, that was smart.
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Oh yeah.
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I have, I have a question for you about that time. Did you ever talk to Alex about like
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religion or anything? Because he thinks that the people at the Bohemian Grove are literally
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Satan worshippers who work for the literal Christian devil. Like this isn't like a metaphorical...
Unknown Speaker (00:53:32.900)
Yeah, and the giant owl.
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The giant owl at Bohemian Grove has got something to do with Moloch, the owl god.
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Fools!
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When you're a healer, he shouts.
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My friend Marty yells fools at me fairly regularly as a, as a reference to that.
Unknown Speaker (00:53:49.900)
Oh, okay. Well, I was sitting in that, I was just, I was sitting on that lawn. I was so,
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I felt, it's funny, like I'm evidently an anxious person, but there was something about
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being with Rick the lawyer. Like my, my wrist radar was, was up and was basically telling
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me that I was going to be fine. Cause this guy, Rick looked so much like he belonged,
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like he couldn't have looked more threatened.
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And he'd gone in before.
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So he was obviously a lesser demon, right? There's no way that he wasn't, yeah, he had
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to have been a, he was a Renfield, of course.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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But, but just for like, if people don't, don't understand, like he, he, he was infiltrated,
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like he hadn't been invited, but he'd infiltrated once before too. So it just felt completely
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safe. So by the time the ceremony was happening and we were like, you know, I knew that Alex,
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I hoped that Alex was filming it in the hidden camera in his bag. I just was like, just sitting
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there thinking, this is just fucking so hilarious, nuts. At one point there was a guy, a guy
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appeared in leaf covered lederhosen and starts singing like, oh boughs, oh trees.
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I don't think that's an Alex's film, but maybe it is. A bunch of people knew the truth.
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There was a little, it's been ages since I saw Alex's film, but my feeling is that the
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whole thing's in it.
Unknown Speaker (00:55:15.139)
Yeah, it may be. It's been a while since I've, I've revisited it too.
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Yeah. So there was a, there was, in my memory, there was a, there was like a stage cuss house
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of a giant redwoods next to the giant owl where the mock human sacrifice was about to
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happen. And like, there was like a light, cause it's a production. Like this isn't like
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a weird satanic ceremony.
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There's like sparklers, sparkles shooting.
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Yeah. There's an orchestra.
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There's an orchestra. John Williams is there.
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There's an orchestra. It's like, it's a show. It's like, it's like off, it's like not off,
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it's like Broadway. It's like Broadway in the redwoods. But with this weird, I mean,
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it's weird. I want to see my summer vacation with all this, you know.
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Some of Broadway is weird.
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I've seen Jersey Boys.
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Yeah. So yeah, when will we learn? Yeah. So, so yes, it was a stage and a guy comes out
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in lederhosen and is covered in leaves and he does a tribute to nature and there's something
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from Cisco orchestras playing. Apparently they have to go home at the end of the evening.
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I remember someone telling me that the orchestra is not allowed to stay.
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They just get two drink tickets and you gotta go.
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Yeah. I feel like I could, I feel like I could get a set at the Bohemian Grove.
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Can you do a type five?
Unknown Speaker (00:56:33.619)
Yeah, I can do a five.
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One free passage to the underground tunnels.
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Meet the mall man.
Unknown Speaker (00:56:41.179)
All right. You get to spend 10 minutes under the Getty and then you got to get out.
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So yeah, so I was just loving it. And in fact, amazingly, like when it was over, like Rick
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was like, let's go. And, and I can't, I don't think we spent very much time with Alex at
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all inside there.
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I wouldn't.
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I remember looking right now. It's going to be a lot safer for me.
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Stay away.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:07.380)
Yeah. So, but I do remember Alex, I was watching the ceremony and just thinking it was hilarious
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and I turned around and Alex is looking like, you know, like Satan has laughed at me.
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And then we had a big fight back at the hotel about what it all meant.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:27.500)
Well, yeah. I mean, you, you had the perspective that there was a metaphor involved and, and
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of course demons on the other side, which it kind of leads back to what question you
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were asking Jordan. It was just like the religious zealotry that Alex demonstrates now is so
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like Satan, literal Satan focused. Like the globalists exist here as an umbrella. And
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like, if you had a flow chart, it all goes up to the big guy, Satan.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:55.619)
Right. Okay. So I subsequently did a story about Alex's teenage years for this American
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life. And one thing that came out in that story of kids who knew him when he was at
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high school was that he was obsessed with Satan then. It would be, it would be hail
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Satan this, hail Satan that.
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But the distinction is, was it hail Satan, like rock and roll or was it, there is a literal
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devil with hooves that walks around and possesses people and I must fight him.
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That's a good question that I don't know the answer to. When I was with him, I don't remember
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much of that, to be honest. I don't remember much, if any, like religious talk. He was
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kind of presenting himself as, I remember he said to me like, you know, he's got a Korean
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family.
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His sister, yeah.
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Yeah. And Kelly, he said was Jewish. And I don't know if Kelly's Jewish or not, but anyway,
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maybe there's some.
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He said that she's Jewish on his show before. It was one of those things that people would
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always attack him about. It was always really kind of gross. Like people accused him of
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like your wife's your handler for a massage or something, you know, like all that nonsense.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:12.900)
Well, I mean, what's the reason I pick it up is, yeah, but the reason why I pick it
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up is that's kind of how Alex was presenting himself to me as like, you know, somebody
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who sort of fits in with Austin society until I mentioned I was a liberal. I was in a car
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with him. And I think the word liberal means, I'm a little bit confused by use of the word
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liberal because sometimes it's used to mean moderate and sometimes it's used to mean progressive.
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And so I at one point described myself as a liberal meaning like a sort of left leaning
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moderate. And Alex like went nuts, you know, what, you said you're liberal, you said you're
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liberal.
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You're a Tommy.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:54.340)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But other than that, like, yeah, he was sort of trying to present
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himself as a kind of, you know, like regular guy.
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Yeah. My sense of so much of his earlier career seems like that, like a regular guy kind of
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stuff. And like, I can't remember if it was in your documentary or another one I've seen.
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He's talking about David Icke and he says that David Icke is like the turd in a punch
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bowl.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:20.659)
Yeah, that's in mind. Yeah. And like the path from that to hanging out with David Icke and
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saying all the same stuff as David Icke like he does now, that's really interesting to
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me.
Unknown Speaker (01:00:34.139)
Yeah, it is, right?
Unknown Speaker (01:00:36.380)
That control and that sort of presentation of, I may or may not believe crazy stuff,
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but I'm going to talk to you about banks. I'm going to talk to you about communism.
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And that's gone now. It's just...
Unknown Speaker (01:00:49.739)
Exactly. And I'm going to talk to you about Waco and Ruby Ridge. And you're right, that's
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all gone. He always had like the Aztec metaphor.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:01.460)
Oh, yeah. They eat hearts.
Unknown Speaker (01:01:04.780)
Yeah, exactly. That stuff was always there. But you're right, his concerns were more,
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you know, in that economic New World Order globalist government overreach thing. Like
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he brought the crazy metaphors to it. But his sphere of interest has definitely widened
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in the subsequent years.
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But it seemed plausible to believe that it was a metaphor back then, you know?
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Yeah.
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That's something that I find like, one of the things that I really enjoy looking at
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with him is the things that are different from different periods. And that like, almost
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everything that I see from the earlier period of his career, someone could make the argument
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that he's not being literal. And I would believe it. I believe that like, this is, you know,
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child sacrifice or whatever is still within the realm of like, all right, you're talking
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metaphor here about demons. But now it's just not.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:04.019)
You're right. I mean, that was definitely a gray area when I knew him, though, because
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the way he was talking about Bohemian Grove was like, maybe they actually are the Mayans.
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Maybe we really did see an actual human sacrifice. Like, I think the word maybe was always in
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there. But I think maybe not. Like, maybe he did say it sometimes.
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I could see saying maybe we saw a sacrifice, like with the adrenaline flowing through you
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that day. I don't know. I had one thing that I wanted to do. And that is, I wanted to tell
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you a few things that Alex has said about his early life. And I want to see if you think
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that these line up with the person that you knew when you guys went to Bohemian Grove,
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or things that you know. So I have a couple things here. The first is he believes he's
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psychic and that his career was preceded by prophetic dreams.
Unknown Speaker (01:02:59.539)
Well, the only paranormal moment, actually, you know what, this wasn't a paranormal moment.
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So he was copping. It was something to do with the tape duplication that happened. We
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went back to Los Angeles. I can't remember. I think we weren't with Alex, because I just,
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once that was over, I just didn't want to spend.
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Yeah, yeah, of course.
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Yeah. But we went back to Los Angeles and something went wrong with the tape duplication
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and some stuff had been erased. And it was mysterious. And I remember Alex kind of was
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sort of veering towards, did they somehow psychically erase the tape?
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Or was there a magnet?
Unknown Speaker (01:03:46.219)
Yeah, exactly. Well, they did this somehow. So that was, I guess that sort of veers slightly
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into the whole paranormal thing. But other than that, nothing I can recall.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:58.820)
Okay, so that seems like maybe he's beefed that up.
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Maybe he's added that one to his repertoire.
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When you went to Bohemian Grove with Alex in 2000, do you think that previous to that
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he had killed anybody?
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I had seen some firearms in his vicinity when I went to his public access show. I remember
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we came out and a friend of his was coming into the parking lot. And Alex said to him,
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this guy's from England, show him what freedom looks like. And the guy opens his coat and
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there's a gun. Yeah. But no, I did not believe Alex had ever murdered him.
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Well, he like-
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Oh, but you know what? But you know, I do think I have an answer to that. I think he
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was talking, I think he was extrapolating talking about Jared, the guy who I tell the
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story.
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In This American Life.
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Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. Like he beat Jared so badly, Jared was permanently injured.
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I don't think it's, you know, knowing Alex is a proneness to exaggeration. Maybe that
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became I Killed a Guy.
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That was kind of my theory for a bit. But then he tells a story about how he's like
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stomped someone's guts out and watched them die slowly. And so I feel like that doesn't
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quite match up with that other. But I mean, it could be even further exaggeration, possibly.
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But you know what? You know what? Alex is demonstrably prone to extreme violence. Like
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what he did to Jared was extreme, was like extremely violent.
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I have another question. Based upon-
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By the way, they beat the shit out of him in Revenge, like a little bit later.
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If people want to hear that full story that This American Life, it's called The Jabberwocky
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is the name of the episode.
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Yeah, I think if you put in Alex in Wonderland and This American Life, you'll find it.
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Yeah, it's a fantastic piece.
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The whole episode is called Beware the Jabberwocky. And the first two stories, the first story
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is Lenny Posner talking about his son and the hounding. And then the second half is
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me doing a story about Alex's teenage years.
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Yeah, right. And as far as the teenage years goes, one of the most interesting things now
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I think is how much Alex's dad has become a part of the mythology. Like his dad is the
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CIA dentist who talks to all these lieutenant colonels and who gets all this information
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that he can then pass on to Alex.
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And he was the smartest kid in Texas.
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And he was recruited by the FBI for UT Austin.
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Dr. Erwin Speer tried to get him into the globalist program because he was the smartest
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boy in Texas. But his dad said, no, this is evil. I will not. And then he told Alex all
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this stuff over the- or actually he told someone else about it and Alex overheard it at the
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dinner table. This is lore.
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Does his dad work at Infowars?
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He was the human resource director for a while. When Rob Jacobson had quit or got fired when
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he put that EEOC complaint in and Alex's dad was the human resources director who replied
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to that or was quoted in press about it. But I don't know if he has an experience in human
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resources. It seems like a strange hire.
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Yeah, I guess. Yeah. So I visited Infowars in 2016. And yeah, there's not that much to
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say about it. It was in like a kind of lockup, like in a business park.
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Yeah. We've been outside the studio before. We've never gone in, but we've gone to the
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building sort of as a pilgrimage. My parents live in Austin. So it's, you know, we've used
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that as an excuse to go and like, I was really underwhelming being out. I thought I would
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feel something being outside the studio. I didn't feel anything.
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Yeah. It's funny, Joe Rogan's old place was like, I think it's obviously his move now,
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but his old place had a similar vibe. It was like from the outside, you didn't know the
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magic that occurs within.
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That's probably for the best. I mean, you don't want to put a neon sign up that is crazy
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conversations happen here.
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In the middle of destroying the world.
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Yeah.
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Anyways.
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The question I think you were getting at is, did you ever meet Alex's dad?
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No.
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Okay.
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No, I didn't.
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It's something interesting I always want to try and unravel. Because my sense of it in
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the real world is just like, his dad was a John Bircher from way back. And then all the
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rest of the stories are basically embellishments. That's kind of what I think. But I don't know.
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I always like talking with people who have some interest in this stuff that I'm very
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interested in. Because it's not too common in my, let's say, personal life to have people
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who are willing to have an hour long conversation about something like this.
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A lot of times these topics are kind of dark or uncomfortable and people veer away from
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them a lot. So I actually had another question I wanted to get to. In preparation for this,
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like I said, I rewatched the episode of The Secret Rulers. And one thing really stuck
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out to me as kind of chilling. And that was at the end of the piece, Alex is driving and
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he's talking normally. And then he switches into performance mode. Does he do that a lot?
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You know, that was the one time that I could recall that I wasn't there. It was just Alex
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and my cameraman, David Barker. So I didn't know until I watched the rushes that he'd
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done that. Yeah, David goes in really close and Alex is doing this performance of like
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an English sort of tuning on a tune.
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You man are these great!
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Does he do that often? Well, I was surprised. My overwhelming sensation of thinking about
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being with Alex is his tirelessness. I don't know anyone who's as tireless as he is. When
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I went to visit him at Infowars in 2016, by the time he let me go, like 10 hours later
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or something, I was like, you know, he's getting me to like film shit with him and stuff like
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that, which you can imagine I really didn't want to do. But I wanted to interview him
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and how could I not agree to that? I was so exhausted. I was like an empty husk. I was
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like crawling along the Austin River, whatever it's called, back to the hotel. And then you
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find out Alex did four more hours. Yeah, exactly. And he's phoning me and he's being incredibly
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automated. He never slows down.
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Some of that might be drugs, or his supplements. But also back in his early days, that work
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ethic is insane. The amount of work he had to put into doing his show, those documentaries
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back in the VHS days, that is not easy stuff to self-edit.
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I'll tell you what he didn't put very much time into, certainly with Dark Secrets inside
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Bohemian Grove, his Bohemian Grove film, was editing. Jesus, he spent as much time at the
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baggage carousel at San Francisco Airport, as he does sneaking into Bohemian Grove. I
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did think this is a man who doesn't know what's interesting and what's not interesting.
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That one might have been rushed, though, too. You got to hit that one out to the people
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quick.
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I don't know, how many times have we seen him do a pre-recorded thing and have so many
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mistakes in it? It's like, you can do two takes, man. You can do two.
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True. Yeah, maybe I'm giving him too much credit for the editing thing, because now
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that I think about it, a number of his documentaries are just him sitting at a desk.
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But no, his work ethic is incredible. Even back then, even in the 90s, it was like, after
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you've been with Alex for a couple of hours, you need to lie down.
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In your time with him, did he ever say like, oh, you have a point? You know what I'm saying?
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Did he ever even meet you halfway towards like, okay, I can see where you're coming
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from?
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Well, that line on the telephone when I accused him of lying about something and he admitted
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it, that was a moment like that. But the big confrontation between us was about the meaning
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of the owl ceremony at Bohemian Grove, and he was refusing. I was outnumbered because
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Mike Hudson was sitting. There were owls everywhere. Too many fucking owls here. It's got to be
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done.
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I once said this and somebody corrected me. But what I do remember being at Bohemian Grove
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when me and Rick were exploring was going into like little wooden booths and there were
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stuffed owls, like owls in cabinets. So I assumed the place was an owl sanctuary, and
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that was the reason for the giant owl. But I said that once and somebody said that wasn't
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true. Do you know anything about that?
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I'm not entirely, no, I hadn't heard that. I kind of always just assumed it was because
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Athena, the owl is her symbol, the goddess of wisdom. Like I kind of just assumed that
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that was the connection. Sort of a classical thing.
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So the stuffed owls were just like a wildlife coincidence.
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Yeah, I don't know. I want to try and do a live podcast at Bohemian Grove, but I don't
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think it's ever going to happen. And I don't know too much about the place other than what
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I've seen externally. It's never really interested me too much.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I've always wanted to perform a human sacrifice in the middle of our show. That
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would be fun.
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The stories about Bohemian Grove in the olden days, the most interesting story about Bohemian
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Grove that I can remember is that part of the Manhattan Project was planned there. Or
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the people who wanted to do the Manhattan Project, Oppenheimer, I guess, gave a speech
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to get support. So there's a connection between Bohemian Grove and the Atom Grove.
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I could see Jack Parsons being at Bohemian Grove very easily.
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I'll never let Nixon weren't famously called it the faggiest place he'd ever been to or
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something along those lines.
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That was on that tape. Yeah, that was great. Good work, Nixon.
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So there are those sort of really interesting connections, but...
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But I don't know, do we have confirmation that Oppenheimer started the Manhattan Project
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there? Or is that just lore?
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You know, without looking it up, I can't answer that. But my feeling is that there is some
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documented evidence of that, but I can't say for sure.
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Well, it is interesting. I could kind of believe it almost as like a shark tank. You know,
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like Bohemian Grove is like a shark tank for the powerful.
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That's a great place to end. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Pitch your ideas about the power.
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Oh, yeah. They have these things called Lakeside Talks, which I guess are like TED Talks.
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They're like seminars. Yeah. It's like a trade show for billionaires to do one.
Unknown Speaker (01:15:53.060)
Yeah, to sell their work, like give you some sort of inspirational talk or sell the project
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that you're trying to do to the powerful people.
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Yeah. Like most things, it's actually really boring.
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I just remembered one thing that stuck out to me, too, from Alex's obsession with old
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people peeing on the street.
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There was a lot of peeing. There was. Yeah, that can confirm all these old men peeing
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on the trees. That happens.
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But I feel like, I feel like that's not weird. I've been to like bonfires in the woods.
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Okay. I think, again, this is something I can't remember whether I know for certain
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or whether I imagined, but I think it is true that there is a sort of, that is a Bohemian
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Grove thing. It's about these guys. It's like a sort of, there's a sort of mini, look, I've
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never said this out loud. Maybe I'll be proven. Maybe this isn't true. But I think, look,
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if you think about this ceremony, the cremation of care, what it's all about is we are burdened
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with all the troubles of the world. When we're in the marketplace, we're very powerful men.
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For this two week vacation, we're going to burn our troubles. And then all the troubles
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go fools, ye will not be able to burn me. I will be back. When ye return to the marketplace,
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will ye not find me waiting as of old. Fools to dream ye conquer care. So anyway, so they
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do, they throw. Well done, sir. Well done.
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So they throw him in the bonfire. But if care is now conquered, does the kind of slightly
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iron John type thing come over when they all get really drunk and piss all over the place?
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That's not, that doesn't seem impossible to me.
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No, no. I see it as just one of the guys who made the whole thing. There are a bunch of
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old dudes, there's some prostate problems. He doesn't want to tell everybody. It's part
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of the ritual.
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Oh, you know what? I did say when I was there, they'd done it, there'd been like a drag show
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the night before. And like all these, you know, men were wearing these sort of, you
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know, absurd, oversized, you know, sort of misogynistic kind of smeared makeup stuff.
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Because it's all men. I think there's an argument that Bohemian Grove has not a massive amount
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of bacchanalia, but a little bit of this is a place where you can cut loose and do things
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like not in a massive way, but in a little bit of a way.
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I hate to go back to the pissing. But I may need to just for the sake of like, it's still
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it seems like a side thing of the ritual of like letting go of care. You know, like it's
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it's one of the manifestations of letting go. It's not like, hey, look, rule number
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three is we piss everyone. But the reason that this sticks in my mind, and it's because
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every time Alex talks about the elites mistreating us, he, not every time, but very regularly
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he'll say they piss on us. Right. And it's going back in and watching that. And it sticks
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out in his head so much that these people were peeing on a street. It seems like a preoccupation
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of his, this piss thing. That's interesting. I don't know. I think that peeing is probably
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more of a thing at Bohemian Grove than you do. I don't think it's like the main thing.
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You know, you've got a lot of educated world business. Maybe somebody can give us the answer.
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Now I'm dreaming that it is the main thing. And a bunch of old rich dudes were just like,
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I'm sick of urinal! Yeah. I must be free to pee. Well, I'm willing to accept that it's
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more of a thing than I, than I realize. But maybe, you know, I'm willing to accept that
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it's not. So whichever way this goes, I think we're both fine. One other question I had
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was what, what was your experience of seeing like Alex become that, like, joining up with
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Trump? Like when he, when he became a Trump fan and all that, did that seem as weird to
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you as it did to me? Oh yeah. It was, I thought it was just the worst idea. I thought like,
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of all the people I've interviewed over the years, like if you'd said to me, one of these
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people is going to have the ear of a president, I would definitely have thought, I hope it's
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not Alex. And you, you've hung out with Nazis. Well, I hope it's not the Nazis either. You
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know, I've also hung out with some inspirational people over the years. But yeah, so it came
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as a total shock actually. Yeah. But even taking the proximity to power piece of it
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aside, like one of the things that I've always thought about Alex is like, he was a Ron Paul
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guy for, for many years, you know, like, and that's a really fun thing to do because Ron
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Paul is never going to win. It's never going to be an option for you to be the person who's
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alongside the elected president, you know? And I, I wonder if the getting involved with
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Trump was because it seemed like this is an impossibility. Yeah. And then it sort of backfired.
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Well I can speak a little to that. I don't know, the person, somebody told me, somebody
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was with Alex on election night, 2016. I don't know if he's ever told the story publicly
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or not. So I, so he probably has, but I shouldn't name him just in case he wouldn't want to
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be named. Sure. But he told me that he was watching Alex as the results were coming in
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and when it was looking more and more likely that Trump was going to be elected, Alex was
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looking more and more worried, like upset, overwhelmed. Like he didn't, like his, like
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his very first instincts was, I mean, who knows, but like, this isn't good. Right. Like
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I've made a very bad choice. Yeah. And he was drunk and it was like the culmination
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of like a 52 hour marathon. It was a disaster. Did you watch it live? I, yeah, I did actually.
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I did watch election night live and it was, it was kind of heartbreaking for the reason
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that like, it's like Owen Schroyer, Alex Jones, Roger Stone, drinking champagne and what they
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were doing instead of celebrating Trump's win really was they were watching video streams
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of Hillary events where people were crying and like it was multicultural groups of folks
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crying and then it just a bunch of white people laughing and drinking champagne and just the,
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the sort of juxtaposition of those images is, is something that's never really left.
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Make sure to start fires. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it was, it seemed really ugly. Yeah. Yeah.
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That's how, which, you know, that, that tracks with the, because they didn't enjoy Trump's
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win. They had, they didn't want Trump to win. They enjoyed the win in so much as it created
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the thing they could laugh at. It tracks with the story that he just told about Alex getting
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increasingly nervous is because whenever they, you know, later on when they're celebrating,
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they can't just be like, hooray, Trump won. They have to fixate on something that they
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actually like, which is the tears of multicultural groups. Yeah. God, God, that's so depressing.
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Yeah. And, and it would have been a cash bonanza if Hillary had won. Like they would have been
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so perfect for the best thing in the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a shame to see Alex
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like turn the way that he did. I remember we had one, when Alex was like, you know,
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why did you, like in my more recent stories that were, that were sort of critical, Alex
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was like, you know, why did you do that? I feel like you turned on me. And I, and I was
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sort of said to him, like, I was really, I, all the stuff he says about DACA and you know,
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I just, it's so, it's kind of so upsetting to me. Like he, you know, I give college talks
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quite a lot because the books I've written, I've met a lot of DACA people. And I mean,
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what has, I'm saying all of this, like, what stuff would Alex say about DACA? Awful things?
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Oh boy. Oh man. Get rid of it. I mean, it's part of the globalist plot to replace all
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white men with people who will always vote Democrat. Well, that's, that's just like,
Unknown Speaker (01:24:40.020)
yeah, that's standard immigration. Yeah. That's standard related issues. Yeah. I met a bunch
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of DACA kids, like at different colleges that I gave talks at. I remember this kid had told
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me that she like got the bus. This was like in the, in the Valley and she lived in the
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other side of Los Angeles and it's like a, she's on the bus for six hours a day so she
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can like go to this college. And then there's Alex, you know, saying all of that shit. And
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I think, I think that's kind of the reason why I needed to do so. And he was like, you
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know, why did you do those stories? And that's what I said.
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Oh man, the amount of disgusting shit he said in the intervening time period between Billie
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Mean Grove and that is more than enough to justify whatever consequences may come.
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Yeah. Yeah. And I also remember him talking about you turning on him on his show.
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Yeah, exactly.
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What did he say? Like, I got like one email. Imagine, like if that had happened before
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his de-platforming I'd have got a lot more emails. So what, what, what did he say?
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I'm not sure if he ever said, he's like called you out by name, but there was stuff about
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like a journalist who lures you in with soft speaking and like stabbed him in the back
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or it was, you know, one of his petty agreements kind of discussions. I always enjoy getting
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to tell people that Alex has talked about them in a particular way. This is maybe the
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fourth person. We've got a lot of them.
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Which again loops back to that I watched too much of this, this garbage.
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I know this happened once or twice. I've had like a couple of emails from people saying
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Alex is really going off of you now. You know, why he's got like every right to do that and
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B because he's been de-platformed isn't impacting my life very much.
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Sure. Sure. Well, I mean, you just heard about some of it here. I mean, it clearly didn't
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impact you at all.
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It didn't.
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Several years later.
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And of course Alex has got every right to do it.
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Yeah, sure.
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The very first time I met Alex, when he was like me building David Gresher's church at
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Waco, he was with Bo Gright, who at the time was a big militia ex-army. The rumor about
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him was that he had inspired the character Rambo and he was like,
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I'm sure.
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Which I'm sure isn't. Well, I don't know if it's true or not actually. So yeah, so Alex
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was like keyed in with all of that sort of strange nexus of the military and conspiratorial
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belief that's not unlike the stuff I wrote about in the Menesté at Goats.
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Yeah, he would later turn on Bo Gright. Alex definitely does not like that dude a little
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bit later on.
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I think that there was a strong suspicion among a lot of people in the Patriot community
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that Bo was a fed or something along those lines. He fell out of favor with a lot of
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the folks.
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Oh, I didn't know any of that. The other guy who I met that day was Jack McGlan from Police
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Against the New World Order. Did you ever come across?
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Yeah, he's been on Alex's show quite a bit. Yeah, he's a fairly regular guest.
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He and Bo Gright were the two people who talked Randy Weaver and his family out of the house
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during the standoff.
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Oh wow. I didn't realize that Jack was one of them.
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That's nuts.
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So that's how I first met Alex was that I was making a documentary about Randy Weaver.
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What part of my book, part of them was telling the Randy Weaver story. Randy Weaver had said
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to me that he'd never been to Waco and then we did some research and it turned out that
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some local radio guy was rebuilding David Koresh's church. So we went on a road trip
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to Waco and as we drove in, like Randy Weaver, I'm sure you listeners will know, like this
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tough Aryan Nations and former, you know. Honestly, when he saw Alex, he was like a
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teenager.
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Jesus.
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And I realized that there was this guy in Texas, in Austin, who was really famous in
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like militia circles and white separatist circles.
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People who use a lot of shortwave radios.
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Right. And really famous in like Austin hipster circles, because I went into like a tuxedo
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store with him one time and the guy in the store recognized him. So he definitely, and
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who clearly wasn't, he clearly was listening to Alex in the same way that you guys listen
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to Alex.
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Right, right, right.
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So even back at the age of 26, he was like really famous in these like small circles.
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But I never, like I never knew that he would have such money and power or proximity to
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power. But I always knew that he was going to be like the biggest conspiracy broadcaster
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in America.
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Wow. Yeah.
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I can totally see how you would get that impression. But it's amazing to hear that.
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Yeah.
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That that was your sense.
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I was really thinking like, were you aware, like at the time, I mean, obviously you weren't
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like, hey, I'm meeting the end of democracy. But you're, you were, you got the sense that
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this guy is going.
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Oh yeah, no, no question.
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You know, like there's, there's.
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No question.
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Well he's a lecturer.
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Yeah, I mean, exactly.
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Yeah, I mean, no, I have no doubt.
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His, his, like, I could never do what he does. Like the, the, the words flowing out, you
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know, his, his, his presumably improvised monologues. Like, does he, how often, like
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you know the answer to this one, like how often does he repeat himself? Like how, like
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I repeat.
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Always.
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Oh really?
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Yeah. That's a disappointment. I was hoping.
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I think a lot of people who don't know, like who just know from clips and stuff and listen
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to his actual show probably get the sense that like, this guy's bouncing off the walls
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saying all kinds of, he does repeat himself a bit and it's, it's kind of, the show was
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quite monotonous at times, but he has the ability to make it feel kind of new, you know,
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like the, he, he sells the feeling kind of, of, of excitement when he can and then sometimes
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he can't and he storms out of the studio.
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Well, at the time, like there was no, I mean, there was no competition. Like the conspiracy
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VHSs were these really boring people sitting in public acts, you know, with a big blow
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up of the eye on the top of the dollar bill, like so boring. The, the, the only like, David
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Eich was good, was, was sort of entertaining on stage, but nowhere near as entertaining
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as Alex. Like David Eich.
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And David Eich isn't, isn't a ball of charisma either.
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No, he's not. He's not. That's what he says.
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That's one way of putting it.
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The lizard theory is like a lot of fun to talk about and think about, but you know,
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David Eich would do these incredibly long, like six, eight hour lectures, which were
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not.
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Could you imagine being there for that long?
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Oh my God.
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Just got a laser pointer out.
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Oh man.
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One time I was filming him in Froome, Froome in Somerset. And we started, we filmed him
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at the beginning, this is David Eich. And so we filmed like an hour or something and
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then we thought let's go and get dinner. So we like drove right into the countryside to
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this lovely country inn and had like a lovely dinner. It was like 10 o'clock at night, but
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I met some people I hadn't seen in years, had a big chat, drank, decided to go back
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for like, you know, maybe see if we can get the final applause. And just, just when we
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got back, David Eich was like, so I'm just going to take a 15 minute break and we'll
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be back for part two.
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You made it back just in time for intermission.
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All right. So wait, where was I? I'm going to have to start it from the top.
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So up there I think was Gertz, like you could listen to him, but it wasn't.
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He was, he was a little less off the farm than, than some of these other, someone like
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Alex or David Eich.
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You would humor those people though. You'd have David Eich on.
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Yeah, you're right. So actually there was no one quite like Alex Jones. There was, there
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was these like mythological figures, like that guy who wrote Behold a Pale Horse. What
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was his name?
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Bill Cooper.
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Bill Cooper. Yeah.
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But Alex, but looking back now it was clear that the conspiracy world was just waiting
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for some kind of charismatic person that could all latch on to him.
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Yeah.
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We, we've covered a couple episodes of Bill Cooper's show, The Hour of the Time, and I've
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listened to a number more of them. And what's really interesting is, is that he, he also
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lacks a lot of that excitement that Alex brings to the table. And so it's within the documentary
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conspiracy world, the radio conspiracy world. Yeah. It was, it was a vacuum that nature
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abhorred and Alex just flew in.
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Yeah. And people, I was going to say people were just desperate for it. Like it wasn't
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like, I'll listen to Alex Jones or someone else. It was like, Alex was like, streets
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ahead of everyone else in terms of being entertaining.
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Yeah. And I think that's one of the problems with the present day is that now that there
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aren't those impediments to being your own content producer, there are so many other
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people who have maybe flashy production or, you know, the ability to produce something
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quicker, maybe to get a conspiracy theory out. And it kind of creates a competition
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in the marketplace of bad ideas that wasn't there before.
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Yeah, that's very true. But yes, in answer to that question, I knew that Alex was, was
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on the up.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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One, one thought I had is hearing, you know, like, you know, when even back then he's going
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to be huge or he's going to be a thing. I have a conviction that I think that there
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will never be another person like him.
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Yeah.
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Do you have a feeling about that? Like, I don't think anyone could do what he's done.
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I mean, the whole isn't there anymore, you know?
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True.
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Yeah.
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But even after he's gone, I don't think anyone could replace him.
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Sure.
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Because you know, the other big voices, I mean, obviously Paul Joseph Watson doesn't
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have that level of, you know. No, I can't think of anyone who's equitable.
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And Paul, Paul, as bad as Paul is, he seems to have some restraint. Like if you, if you
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look at the Sandy Hook stuff, like he was a voice who was saying, stop it, cut this
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out.
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I heard you saying that in that episode with the lawyer. I was really pleased to hear that.
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Yeah. And I wouldn't believe that just based on people talking because they're all liars.
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But there's actual emails from back then where Paul was trying to get them to. And I think,
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I think that with it, with that, that governor on him, you know, like not letting himself
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do these horrible things. I don't know if he could do what Alex does.
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I mean, to a certain extent, it's almost like you have to, now that you have seen Alex,
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then you know the Faustian bargain of like removing all governors, removing everything
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that would, you know, inhibit you. And that is going to lead to where we are now, you
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know, like there's, so you already know how it's going to end if you choose to be Alex
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Jones, which is a fascinating thing for me.
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Some people will take that bargain, but they just don't have the chops.
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Yeah. Well, see, there you go.
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Well, speaking of things ending, maybe I should go now.
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Speaking of things ending, bye! Goodbye! Fuck off! I'm done!
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It's been an absolute delight to talk to you. This is the idea of when we started this show
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that this would ever be something, a conversation we would have is it's, it's baffling to me.
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Like it wasn't even close to something we thought was possible.
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Well, I can't tell you the number of people who tweeted me, like when you, what if you
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tweeted me to say to want to be a guest on the show and the number of people who like
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tweeted to say, you've got to do this. This is a great show. People were DMing me, like
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people really big, big journalists in this field were DMing me and saying, I can vouch.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:01.340)
These guys are great. Oh, wow. You got a great reputation.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:08.000)
If you're not a journalist known in the field, stay out of John's DMs. Don't harass the man.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:14.460)
Please, please don't harass anybody. You got a great reputation. What did Chuck
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say to Alex that day? We'll be talking a lot.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:24.579)
You're going to be very happy with me. Your track record is amazing.
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Your track record is amazing. Well, thank you guys.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:34.979)
Thank you so much. Yeah. People can check out your new podcast.
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It's on iTunes and everything, all the places. Things fell apart. It's not on all the places.
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I think it's only on the BBC and Apple podcasts. Right now, this minute, right now for the
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next couple of months, it's only on Apple podcasts in the United States and BBC sounds
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in the United Kingdom. But in three months time, it's going to be like available everywhere,
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but you can listen to it now on Apple podcasts. Episode seven connects to Alex. Alex makes
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a very brief cameo. Very cool. We're excited.
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Hopefully it's loud and incoherent. Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks
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for holding. Hello, Alex. I'm a first name caller. I'm
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a huge fan. I love your work. I love you.
