Transcript/1081: Tucker, The Man And His Empiricist

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THEME MUSIC

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LiD worry

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Nah nah nah

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arts

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edom

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art

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arts

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arts

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this country

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replacement knowledge

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knowledge

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right

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arts

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shés

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Colombia

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good lots

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change

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we are

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yes

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knowledge

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Dan and George. Knowledge Fight.

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Riddleware, riddleware, riddleware.

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Ah, need, I need money.

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Riddleware, riddleware, riddleware.

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Andy and Chansley. Andy and Ch- Andy.

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Stop it. Andy and Chan- Andy and Chansley.

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Riddleware, riddleware, riddleware.

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It's time to pray. Andy and Chansley, you're on the air. Thanks for holding.

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Hello Alex, I'm a first-time caller. I'm a huge fan.

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I love your work.

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Knowledge Fight.

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Knowledge Fight.

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Knowledgefight.com.

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I love you.

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Hey everybody, welcome back to Knowledge Fight. I'm Dan.

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I'm Jordan.

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We're couple dudes, like to sit around, worship at the altar of Selene, talk a little bit about Alex-

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Oh, indeed we are Dan.

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Jordan.

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Dan.

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Jordan.

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Quick question for you.

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What's up?

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What's your bright spot today, buddy?

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My bright spot is I'm fucking around and thinking about bringing back a matter of time.

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Oh no.

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Because I accidentally discovered that MacGyver is unstreaming. Classic MacGyver.

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All right.

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And I said, why not? I'll watch the pilot of MacGyver.

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Because why not?

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I haven't seen MacGyver in a long time.

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Yeah.

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I watched it when I was a kid.

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Did you?

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A little bit. And I think there were more jokes about MacGyver than I actually watched.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I've seen definitely a few.

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I also think a fair amount of them blur together with Walker, Texas Ranger.

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And so I'm not sure exactly what's Norris, what's Richard Dean Anderson.

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And so I turned it on. And I have to tell you, I was overwhelmed by the opening credits.

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It is so much boy stuff from my childhood.

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It's just him doing a bunch of stuff that rambunctious boys might do in the opening.

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It's just great. It tickled something in my brain.

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And I love it. I can't wait to watch however many seasons there are.

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I don't believe I've ever seen a full episode of MacGyver, but I've seen the last eight minutes

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of 15 episodes of MacGyver, and they are very similar.

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I know that I've watched plenty. Enough to answer this question that I don't really know.

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And that is, what does he do? Watch the pilot. I don't know.

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I feel like he's an independent contractor in some way. He's not wholly working for the force.

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Well, the government definitely tells him, we need you to do something.

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And then he is also told, you can turn down this job. You don't have to do this. This is crazy.

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It's a very strange relationship he has with the government. Almost like altruistic in a sense.

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He's like, ah, the government needs me again. I'll just help them out.

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Yeah. So in this one, there's an explosion in a negative third floor chemical plant.

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And it turns out that it was sabotaged by the head scientist because he had created a way to get rid

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of the ozone layer accidentally, and he didn't want it to fall into the wrong hands. So he lured

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the only other scientist in the world who understood what he was working on to his lab,

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played a chess game with him, and then blew it up. So they both died?

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No, they both survived. They both survived? Oh no.

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A lot of other people died, but they survived, so MacGyver's got to go down and get them.

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Roll by car.

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And there's a chemical leak. And so the military is going to shoot a missile at them.

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Of course.

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He doesn't get the wrong time.

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This is a hell of a pilot.

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And while he's down there, he meets the assistant to one of these scientists, this lady.

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And she is like the gal from Indiana Jones. She's an adventurer type. She's ready to go.

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Okay.

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They kiss like three times.

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I'm sorry?

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I googled it.

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Do they know each other?

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No.

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Wow. That's quick.

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They thought they were going to die, and she's like, I just want to thank you.

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Oh, that's fair.

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And then they kissed two more times.

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Wow.

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And I googled it, and she's not in another episode.

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I mean, I hate to say this about MacGyver,

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but perhaps his one character flaw is he likes to hit it and quit it.

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Yeah, he was loose with the lips.

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Um, also he's a big brother, and that's cool, and he seems to live in a planetarium.

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He's like a superhero.

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But a kid.

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But a kid, yeah. He's like a little boy's imaginary superhero best friend

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who doesn't have superpowers, but is a good dad, but a dad who's your older brother.

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Yeah.

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I worry about how much I'm going to uncover about things from my cantankerous young boy phases.

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Eras of life that I'm like, oh wait, that was all just MacGyver.

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All of a sudden you realize that most of your memories are actually MacGyver episodes?

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Interesting.

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I didn't blow up that lab.

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You were secretly experimented on by the government to teach you about MacGyver,

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like in The Matrix, but instead of learning kung fu, you just know MacGyver storylines.

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Yeah.

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There's also four points where I audibly said, nope.

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But I love it still.

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It's great.

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All right.

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So what's your bright spot?

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My bright spot, Dan, is that for the first time in a good long while,

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my beloved Cubs have won a postseason game.

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Go Cubs go.

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They will play today, this afternoon at four o'clock for the chance to

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make it to the National League Division Series.

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Nice.

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But for the time being, it's them versus the Padres.

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One game each.

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The dads.

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This is the third.

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This is the rubber match, and I'm excited to watch it tonight.

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I hope we will be wrapped up in time for you to take that in.

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Oh yeah.

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I will have a cold beer in my hand and chips like an old fashioned man from the 1940s.

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Nice.

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I will connect with my ancestors.

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We went to go see a movie earlier in the week.

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Yes, we did.

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So we were down near Wrigley, and it was during one of the games,

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and there was counter-terrorism on the L.

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Yep.

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And it was very...

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It was overwhelming.

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Yeah, there's gonna be a lot of people around.

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Yeah.

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Our city has been invaded.

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Yep.

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So, Jordan, today we have an episode to go over.

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All right.

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And without telling you too much about what we're gonna be talking about,

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I wanted to give you a little out of context drop to whet your appetite.

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If demons do exist, we ought to be heads up about it.

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Gotta be heads up.

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Heads up, demons.

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Is he wrong?

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I mean, no.

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You know, I was just thinking, you can't plan for every disaster,

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but you can plan for some disasters.

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And if there are demons, I think we should plan for them.

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Right.

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If we assume demons are real...

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Right. Big assumption, but we gotta assume it.

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Mm-hmm.

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Yep.

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Heads up.

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The risk is too great.

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I mean, if they are real and we're not prepared for them, we're fucked.

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Yeah, because they're tricky.

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They're unstoppable.

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Yeah.

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So we will get into something about demons.

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But first, before we do that, let's take a little moment to say hello to some new wonks.

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Ooh, it's a demon feast.

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So first, thank you very much for feeding my bespoke woke mind virus.

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Thank you so much.

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You are now Policy Wonk.

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I'm a Policy Wonk.

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Thank you very much.

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Bisp-woke.

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Bisp-woke.

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Bisp-woke.

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Bisp-woke.

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Next, from the Church of Dick Flakheel and the Latter Day Erections.

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Thank you so much.

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You're now Policy Wonk.

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I'm a Policy Wonk.

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Thank you very much.

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Dick Flacid.

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Sorry.

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Gotcha.

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Next, Dan, this is Jordan from the future.

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You're a great friend and I love you.

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Ooh, thank you so much.

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You're now a Policy Wonk.

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I'm a Policy Wonk.

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Thank you very much.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, well, I mean, it's good to know that in the future we're still friends or I'm a weirdo.

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Or it could be like in the very near future.

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Or, yeah, or like maybe it's deeper into the future after all of this stuff has broken us

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up and torn us apart and I was just like, I have one message on my deathbed to get back to Dan.

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Well, here we are.

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I'm glad you took the time and it means a lot.

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Of course.

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So we also got a technocrat in the mix, Jordan.

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So thank you so much to I've got a small coffee company, outdoor coffee cult in Oregon called

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Hush Hush Coffee and I wanted to send you guys some coffee and officially offer you

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a sponsorship for your roast segment in honor of Owen leaving.

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Handbiter.

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Thank you so much.

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You're now a technocrat.

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I'm a Policy Wonk.

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Four stars.

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Go home to your mother and tell her you're brilliant.

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Someone, someone sodomite sent me a bucket of poop.

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Daddy shark.

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Jar Jar Binks has a Caribbean black accent.

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He's a loser.

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Little little titty baby.

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I don't want to hate black people.

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I renounce Jesus Christ.

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Thank you so much.

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Thank you very much.

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It occurs to me that I may have forgotten to reply to that email because I would like some of that

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coffee.

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Yeah, I don't need a sponsorship.

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If you want to send Jordan coffee, he drinks a lot of it.

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Absolutely.

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I drink so much.

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Um, I will say that on our last Owen episode, I did intend to write a roast.

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Right.

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I did intend to, but I sat down and I started thinking of roast jokes.

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Yeah.

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I realized I hate roast comedy.

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It's the worst form of comedy I think possible.

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Yeah.

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Clever ways of saying this guy sucks.

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You suck.

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Okay.

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The end.

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So Jordan, there's no denying it.

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This show has been light on wackiness recently, and I think we've all felt the weight of its

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absence, especially as the world descends into like a real bad, bad time.

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We need that.

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We need something.

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Yeah.

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So laying in bed for a few days, I had the thought, you know, I was sick enough.

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Let's get wacky.

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So as soon as I got to feeling better, I got straight to this task and I wasn't going to

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accept anything short of succeeding.

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And it didn't take me long to strike gold.

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On September 1st, Tucker Carlson released an interview with a former journalist named

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Lee Strobel entitled quote, possessions, miracles, visions, and encounters with angels and demons.

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And I said, say less.

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Yeah.

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No, I'm in.

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I, I, you stop drilling.

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You have hit oil, my friend.

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Yep.

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We all know Tucker was recently attacked by a demon.

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Recently attacked by a demon.

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This is finally him learning more about how to fight back.

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Right.

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This is great.

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And an opportunity for him to open up.

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Of course.

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This is going to be awesome.

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Tell us more.

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Yeah.

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So what do you think about demons?

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You know, traditionally against them, but maybe they're misunderstood.

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You know, I feel like perhaps we've gotten trapped in a dogmatic idea of good versus

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evil and maybe that is a kept us from evolving as a species and demons are a fundamental

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aspect of something that we need to address as something part of our insights.

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I'll spoil this for you.

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Lee is opposed.

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Opposed.

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Okay.

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Well then I'll go with that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So we start off here with Tucker giving a little bit of a, a little bit of an intro,

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a Psalms guest.

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Okay.

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So we're told there's no state religion in the West, certainly not in the United States,

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but in fact there is.

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It's scientism.

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It's the worship of science.

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It's the belief, and all of us learn this at a young age, that everything around us,

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everything we experience can be measured by people in white coats.

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That's science.

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If it can't be measured, it's not real.

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The problem with this religion is that our life, our daily experience contradicts it.

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So belief in science does not require a person to think that our current understanding of

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science is capable of explaining everything in the world.

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This is a semantic game that Tucker is playing where he's imposing on his opponents a position

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that they don't hold.

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Science can explain a lot and it can explain a shitload more than it could a hundred years

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ago.

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So anyone who's not a dipshit would understand that in a hundred years, we'll be able to

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explain a lot more than we can now.

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Science doesn't purport to be able to explain everything.

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Although most people who are into reality probably would concede that almost everything

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could be explained if we understood how everything worked.

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Probably.

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Science is about repeatability for the most part.

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It's a process that takes ideas and tests them to see if they reach valid conclusions.

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What I mean is that science doesn't just say that antibiotics kill infections and therefore

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this must be so.

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Rigorous trials and repeated studies that tested antibiotics against infections arrived at

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that conclusion that they were effective in fighting them.

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So that's become science's position.

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If new repeatable credible information were to come to light that indicated that they

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didn't work that way, science would change with that new information.

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Science isn't a religion.

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And this formulation is actually Tucker hiding the ball about what his actual argument is,

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which we'll get to as we go along.

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As for the unexplained things that we experience in our day-to-day life, some of that can probably

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be explained by science you just don't understand.

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Other parts of it might be stuff that can't be explained by our current body of scientific

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knowledge, but will be explained by a new discovery that's just waiting to happen.

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Or it could be magic.

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It's possible.

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It is possible that we could all be in some sense particles given mass by Higgs field

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and that in a certain sense we are just moving through jello up and down like a wave.

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Or of course, could be God.

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Could be magic.

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Any of these things are possible and scienceism is a cult.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:51.519)

That does make sense.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:52.559)

And all you need to know is that we're all having supernatural experiences all the fucking time.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:59.279)

That sounds true.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:00.559)

Constantly all of us are seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling things that can't be measured by science,

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but it doesn't make them any less real.

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These are by definition supernatural.

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Supernatural experiences are a feature of everyone's life and if we're honest we'll admit that.

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Tucker is saying that we're seeing, hearing, tasting, and feeling things that cannot be

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measured by science, which is strange because that's all of our senses except smell.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:27.840)

Why aren't people smelling supernatural stuff?

Unknown Speaker (00:14:31.919)

Okay, all right.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:33.679)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:35.840)

I'm gonna follow this train of thought.

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Please.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:39.360)

If everyone experiences the supernatural, does it not then no longer deserve the term super?

Unknown Speaker (00:14:48.799)

It's just natural in a way that we don't understand.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:51.759)

Yeah, it's just natural.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:53.039)

Or not even that, if you're tasting something then we can measure how spicy it is, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:14:58.399)

Sure, there's capsaicin levels and scoville units.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:02.960)

Yeah, many of the things that you are seeing,

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tasting, feeling are in fact very measurable by your own senses.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:10.720)

Tucker isn't talking about tasting a ghost or something here.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:14.320)

This is actually just a reference to an idea in Lee Strobel's book,

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where someone he's interviewing blows his mind by telling him that science can't describe the

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smell of coffee.

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Sensory experiences are tough to capture in words,

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largely because there's a disconnect between an experience and the awareness of the experience.

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Every person's reaction to a description of coffee relies on their subjective take on it,

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so putting that subjective description into more objective terms is difficult.

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But that doesn't mean that science can't explain why something smells the way they do.

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This is fairly basic stuff.

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It's something that we use so effectively that most people probably don't even realize it.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:51.519)

Yeah.

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For instance, natural gas is odorless, but it's also super dangerous.

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Can we measure it with science?

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Well, when companies produce it, they add an odorizer to the gas

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so people can detect a leak more easily.

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They can do that because the scientific method has uncovered various compounds that have certain

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smells. Your experience of smelling one of these odorizers may be different from mine,

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but the arrangement of atoms that create the stimulus that we describe differently is science.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:20.720)

Anyway, the point is that we aren't constantly running around having supernatural experiences.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:25.759)

If you want to add some importance to the unique experience of tasting a peach

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and that importance improves your life, then I wish you the best with it.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:33.039)

But that does not invalidate science, and you sound like an idiot.

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I appreciate anybody who could write an entire book that I think his thesis boils down to.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:43.039)

Explain, example, with your science.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:46.639)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:49.440)

It does.

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Except it's a little dumb.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:52.879)

Yeah. I mean, ultimately it comes down to like, well, I don't understand this,

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prove that. Like, man, what are we doing here?

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And I think that we're going to have a tough time because I'm going to be real mean to Lee Strobel

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throughout this, but he seems like a pleasant man.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:09.839)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:10.319)

I don't know anything about him except this interview and what I've read and his book and

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stuff, but he seems like a happy person.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:17.440)

Eh, he's all right.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:18.319)

He also seems probably worse than Tucker in some ways, but politer.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:25.519)

I mean, I suppose you don't...

Unknown Speaker (00:17:28.319)

You know, if you write a book about how angels and demons are better than science,

Unknown Speaker (00:17:34.400)

I don't think I can let you off the hook, even if you're a polite guy.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:37.680)

Wait till you hear some of the shit he says.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:39.039)

I believe that. I believe that hard.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:40.720)

So here's the thing you need to know about Lee before Tucker brings him in.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:44.799)

That is the most important thing is he likes to prove shit.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:48.640)

Right.

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Because he's from journalism.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:50.799)

Oh my God.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:51.680)

Well, Lee Strobel was a reporter. He worked for the Chicago Tribune

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and left and became a pastor.

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So he has religious faith, but also a grounding in empiricism, the desire to prove things.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:06.319)

He is the perfect person to write the book that he did about the supernatural.

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That would be dreams, mystical dreams, near death experiences, miracles, ghosts.

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We set down them to hear just how common these experiences are and what they mean.

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I hate to say it, but the themes growed on me.

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Really?

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Tucker's theme song has grown on me.

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That little twang.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:30.720)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:31.279)

Well, it's fair.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:32.480)

So this is already what Tucker is saying is already a huge problem for him because

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he's trying to prove that Lee Strobel likes to live in the world of proven facts by saying

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that he worked for a major newspaper.

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Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:43.920)

The mainstream media is supposed to be all spin and lies. So the fact that he worked

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for the Chicago Tribune should probably be a mark against him in Tucker's world.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:50.960)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:51.599)

I guess the media is only the enemy of the people when you need it to be.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:54.960)

So Lee did work in journalism, but he hasn't since 1987.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:00.079)

At that point, he became involved with mega churches and writing Christian apologetics

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texts designed to argue why it's not irrational to believe in various tenets of the religion.

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There you go.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:09.759)

And I'm sure that most people know, but like apology in this case is not like...

Unknown Speaker (00:19:15.200)

It's not like, I'm sorry.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:16.559)

No, no, no, no.

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It's argumentative.

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It's a defense of...

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Physiognity makes sense.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:22.559)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:23.039)

I have no problem with him writing these kinds of texts, but it's deeply disingenuous to call

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in someone who's interested in empiricism.

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In a religious sense, Lee is an evangelist. And when religion and politics intersect,

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as they do with Tucker, he's acting as a propagandist.

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I don't care about a person working at a newspaper almost 40 years ago.

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So the presentation of Lee as a rational actor based on that piece of his resume,

Unknown Speaker (00:19:46.240)

it's not going to sway me.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:47.680)

We'll see how he makes his arguments and presents his information. And from there,

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we can see if this is an honest empiricist who just has to admit that magic is real.

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Or if he's a charlatan parading around in an empiricist costume,

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feeding into a religious hysteria that's going to be used to persecute a ton of people for no reason.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:04.880)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:05.759)

We'll find out.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:06.720)

You know what I was just thinking?

Unknown Speaker (00:20:08.160)

I was just thinking...

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It's the second one.

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Here's what I'm doing.

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All right.

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I'm creating a farm system for these guys. This is my new plan.

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I hire a bunch...

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Or I raise a bunch of youth group kids to think, go become a journalist.

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And then in eight years, you'll be the person I'm like,

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oh, come to the other side.

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And you'll be like, I worked in journalism for eight years, and now I believe in the Lord.

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But actually you did it the whole time.

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It was all a fucking ruse.

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And now you're brought up to the big game.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:34.799)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:35.200)

That's what I'm saying.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:36.480)

I don't think this is a bad idea.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:37.680)

Well, I think that there is some kind of...

Unknown Speaker (00:20:40.319)

What would Alex call that? Like sheep dipping?

Unknown Speaker (00:20:42.559)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:43.039)

Sheep dipping someone in credibility?

Unknown Speaker (00:20:44.640)

Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:45.680)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:46.000)

No, that's the way to do it.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:47.279)

So Lee comes into the interview.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:50.480)

Okay.

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And...

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Lee Strobooth.

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So you've written a book.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:54.880)

I don't do a lot of book interviews.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:57.039)

I couldn't resist this one.

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Seeing the supernatural, investigating angels, demons, mystical dreams,

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near-death encounters and other mysteries of the unseen world.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:08.480)

Right.

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I think a lot of us sense or know on some level...

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In fact, I think everybody knows on some level that there is a world that science can't measure

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or quantify.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:19.200)

Yeah.

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That there is...

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There's stuff that we can't explain.

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Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:24.880)

But that it's no less real for our inability to explain it.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:27.599)

So let's go through the list.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:29.839)

Yeah.

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So the elephant in the room here is that Tucker has recently revealed that he was

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attacked by a demon in his sleep.

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Yeah.

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He did an interview with an orthodox documentarian about it.

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So it's not just a poorly kept secret or something that Alex has gossiped about without permission.

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Tucker's trying to insinuate that we all know that there are unseen things in the world that

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science can't explain, but doesn't seem to want to tell Lee about his own very real and very

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serious experience.

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Lee has written a book about encounters with angels and demons.

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So Tucker could...

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He could be a very useful resource when he was writing this book or now he's promoting it.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:03.279)

I was gonna say, should have been consulted, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:22:05.839)

Tucker has so much evidence.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:07.519)

I'm sure he took pictures of the claw marks and his wife can verify aspects of the story.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:11.440)

So it seems like a perfect situation for him and Lee.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:14.720)

Lee's the person most motivated to believe Tucker's story.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:18.240)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:18.480)

And Tucker is the person who seems like he could provide Lee with solid evidence of a demon attack.

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Chocolate and peanut butter, baby.

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I'm sure that we're gonna spend a lot of time nailing down the specifics and Tucker's testimony.

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Feels very real.

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It's not gonna come up at all.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:33.039)

You don't think so?

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It doesn't come up at all.

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It would be interesting to see them disagree though.

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That would be the joy.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:39.759)

I don't think Lee would disagree with him.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:41.279)

As a professional former journalist who studies demons now,

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I can tell you that demon you are talking about was not real.

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That claw is a dog size.

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You say your dog sleeps in the bed with you?

Unknown Speaker (00:22:55.039)

Demons have much bigger claws.

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It's like the guy who the Pope hires to be like, no demons are real.

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But then he finds one.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:04.799)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:05.359)

Yeah.

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We're gonna talk about a guy like that later.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:08.960)

So Lee, he used to be an atheist.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:11.200)

Sure.

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And he was trained in law.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:14.000)

You know, by the way, I was an atheist.

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I'm trained in journalism and law.

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And so I'm always looking for corroboration.

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I'm looking for evidence.

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I'm looking for facts.

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And so you're right.

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I think there's an intuitive sense that most people have that there's something beyond what we can see,

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touch, and put in a test tube.

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Eight out of 10 Americans believe that.

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So law is not a science.

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Law is another, it's a system of rules, which we like to imagine is based on empiricism,

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but it's actually more influenced by rhetoric.

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Lawyers make arguments and courts decide cases, which isn't the same as consistently reproducible

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reactions caused by introducing two chemicals into the same space.

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Journalism is also not a science.

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All of these things, law, journalism, and science deal with the concept of truth differently.

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So Lee boosting his credentials in law and journalism doesn't mean he has any connection

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to the scientific method at all.

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But Lee does have a master's in law from Yale, which makes sense because his career is about

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arguing.

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It's not about proving, but instead about pretending that arguing is the same as proving.

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And that's why he was, he had a role in God's Not Dead 2.

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See, here's what's important.

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I was trained in law and journalism.

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Two things that everybody knows, like angels and demons, are the single most objective

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things that have been.

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Nobody's ever seen a subjective court or a subjective piece of journalism.

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That would be absurd.

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Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:35.359)

Right.

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So because of this expertise, I can now tell you that angels and demons are real.

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And I went to Yale, so you know the things I believe are good for you.

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I hold you in contempt.

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Couldn't think of another court term.

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Judgment.

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So how do we know?

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How do we know things?

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How do we know anything?

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How do we know things?

Unknown Speaker (00:24:57.759)

Right.

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And when you think about how do we know things?

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How do we know things?

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You start to realize that atheists are the fucking stupid ones.

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How do we know?

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What is the evidence?

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And that's what I try to get into in the book.

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How can we be sure through corroborated evidence that indeed there are such things as miracles,

Unknown Speaker (00:25:15.039)

as near-death experiences, as deathbed encounters and mystical dreams and things like that?

Unknown Speaker (00:25:20.400)

Yeah, atheism is the leap of imagination.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:23.519)

It is.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:24.160)

That's true.

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It's hard to be an atheist.

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It's very true.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:27.200)

I admire them in a way, though.

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It feels right for them.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:28.960)

Anyway, okay.

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Angels.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:30.960)

Yeah.

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Angels.

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Angels.

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I think that in life, it's important to respect what is knowable and what is not,

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and to respect people's right to experience the stuff that's not however works best for them.

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As it stands now, there's not a reliable, reproducible, meaningful way to prove the

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existence of a personified God.

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So I think it's fair to count that as part of life that's unknowable for now.

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Maybe one day we'll create some kind of Geiger counter that can sense angel particles,

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and then we can talk a bit more about the empirical case for religion.

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But for now, that's dumb.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:03.599)

That said, it's not necessarily dumb, in my opinion, to have faith and choose to believe

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what you want about unknowable things.

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In the absence of demonstrable proof that God exists, it makes total sense to choose

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to believe in an all-loving figure who created us for a reason.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:17.599)

Why not?

Unknown Speaker (00:26:18.160)

Exactly.

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Are you busy?

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If it helps someone get through the day and find meaning, then it's probably a good thing.

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Generally.

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The only way that we can live in a balanced society is if we accept what is knowable,

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what is currently unknowable, and treat those things differently.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:33.279)

And I think we've lost track of that a little bit.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:35.359)

Are you trying to say that there's something subjective about the Bible?

Unknown Speaker (00:26:39.279)

I think you've missed the point.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:40.400)

Well, I think that there's a subjective and objective mix.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:42.960)

And enjoy.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:45.279)

Tucker feels the need to deride atheists because he needs to obscure from the fact that he

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and hardcore atheists suffer from the same fallacy, which is pretending that they can

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prove something that's impossible to prove.

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One side says they can prove God does exist, the other side says they can prove God doesn't,

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and neither can really accept that they're fundamentally operating from an arbitrary

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answer that they've come up to for an unanswerable question.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:06.960)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:07.359)

And their answer is acceptable, it's just imposing it on everybody else is dumb.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:12.000)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:12.720)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:14.480)

That is kind of the problem.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:15.920)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:16.420)

It was, it's a little bit like, you know, if you think about what Jesus was saying about

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the hot or cold concept, if you're all the way in, right, you're gonna treat people nice,

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because you gotta get into heaven, that's the most important thing that you could possibly do.

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Right?

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But if you're all the way out, you gotta treat people nice, this is all you've got,

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this is all you've got left, you're gonna die, you're gonna fucking die,

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and then there'll be nothing, so you gotta treat people nice.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:41.380)

So that's what you thought the hot and cold was about?

Unknown Speaker (00:27:44.099)

It's all the stuff in the middle that's dumb.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:45.779)

Hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:46.660)

But also, when something's in the middle, it doesn't burn your mouth

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or chip your tooth, because it's frozen.

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That's fine for all this stuff around here, but not for that guy upstairs.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:55.619)

That's fair enough.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:57.059)

So I wanted to stress that, and kind of like, touch on this a little bit,

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because I don't want to be like, ah, fuck you religion.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:06.980)

Like, I don't want to come off like that, and I don't want to be like,

Unknown Speaker (00:28:10.019)

haha, look at these stupid Christians that believe this dumb shit.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:12.579)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:13.059)

These are specific people who believe some dumb shit.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:15.779)

And it's possible to maintain religion and faith in a way that isn't this.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:21.140)

I just want to differentiate between that.

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One of the most universal things that is true is that everybody believes in dumb shit somewhere.

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Somewhere or another, you'll find some dumb shit you believe in.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:31.059)

Right. And that's essentially the only way to deal with unanswerable questions,

Unknown Speaker (00:28:36.339)

other than just being like, ah.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:38.099)

Yeah. There's, ah, I believe in some dumb shit, and they're both basically the same.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:41.779)

Yeah. Well, one gives you things to do, the other doesn't.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:46.579)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So anyway, angels.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:49.220)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:49.859)

What do you know about angels?

Unknown Speaker (00:28:52.660)

Good ones or bad ones?

Unknown Speaker (00:28:53.779)

They play in Los Angeles.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:54.900)

Because we got the good ones with the wings upstairs,

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but then we got the bad ones with the wings downstairs, because they were upstairs,

Unknown Speaker (00:29:00.819)

but then they got into a big fight, and then they went downstairs.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:03.140)

My man, they became demons, and we'll get to them later.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:05.299)

All right, fair enough.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:06.259)

Angels for now are just the good guys.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:07.940)

Just the good guys, okay.

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So Lee explains what they're up to.

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Angels.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:12.900)

Yeah.

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What's an angel?

Unknown Speaker (00:29:14.980)

Fascinating. Angels are created by God, before humankind was created.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:21.460)

They are spirit beings, so they're not omniscient like God is.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:25.539)

They're not omnipresent like God is.

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They don't age, because there's no physical body.

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They don't marry, because there's no physical body.

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Must be nice.

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They're very intelligent, very smart.

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No in-laws.

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With what?

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There's no physical body.

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To serve not only God, but also his people.

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And what's interesting...

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The Christian Bible with the Hebrew Old Testament makes references.

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Is there any culture in the world that doesn't believe in some form of angel?

Unknown Speaker (00:29:57.380)

It's pretty universal.

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Pretty universal.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:59.299)

Sure.

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So now we're supposed to believe that Lee is coming from a position of a guy who is Christian faith,

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but is also a man of empiricism.

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So the things that he's saying aren't just wacky ramblings.

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They're based in fact.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:09.779)

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:10.980)

If you want to say that you believe that angels exist because of some incident where someone is

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saved by an angel and there's no explanation that you can come up with for it, then I can

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accept that you're applying a critical mind to the situation.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:21.700)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:22.420)

You're going off the rails and applying critical thinking poorly, but you're seeking an explanation

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for something that you feel cannot be explained any other way, so you're left to assume,

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well, maybe it was an angel.

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Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:33.140)

Conversely, if you're telling me that angels were created before humans, and you want to tell me

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about their biology and dating habits, then I'm no longer convinced that what you're saying is

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the product of critical thinking.

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As we go along, this is one of the crucial things to keep in mind because it reveals the lie that

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all of this is based on.

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Lee is pretending that he's a good faith researcher who has seen stuff that just can't be explained

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by natural means.

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So he's left with no choice but to consider the possibility that maybe the supernatural stuff

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is going on.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:02.259)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:02.980)

But where in his exploration of trying to explain natural phenomena did he learn that angels

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don't get married?

Unknown Speaker (00:31:08.579)

Oh, well, because they can't fuck, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:31:12.579)

His argument is they don't marry because there's no physical body.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:16.579)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:17.220)

Right?

Unknown Speaker (00:31:17.460)

They don't age.

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That's the concept.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:19.380)

Or they can't reproduce or whatever it is you'd like to say.

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They never have to buy new clothes.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:23.059)

Right, right, right.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:23.779)

Now, if I understand this correctly, though, where do they smart?

Unknown Speaker (00:31:30.180)

Do you know what I mean?

Unknown Speaker (00:31:30.900)

If there's no physical body, what is it that they keep their smarts in?

Unknown Speaker (00:31:36.099)

Like, we have a brain.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:37.619)

We're not just, like, thinky.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:40.019)

I think they're spatial intelligence people.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:42.500)

Is that how it works?

Unknown Speaker (00:31:44.099)

They just have existing space.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:46.660)

You know how, like, Turbo on the challenge is really good at, like, color puzzles?

Unknown Speaker (00:31:52.259)

That's true.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:52.740)

And, like, he's just a machine at those things.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:55.140)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:55.700)

Angels are like that.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:56.819)

Okay.

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That makes enough sense for me.

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I'm in.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:02.259)

Oh, boy.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:03.140)

So this guy, I mean, like, we're already, like, only a couple of minutes into the interview,

Unknown Speaker (00:32:08.099)

and, like, you have abandoned the pretense of empiricism.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:11.940)

Tell me more about the marriage.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:13.539)

Tell me more about why they don't marry.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:15.380)

Tell me if God was like, we should get ones that marry and ones that don't marry.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:19.380)

What are we talking about here?

Unknown Speaker (00:32:20.579)

Well, they don't marry because they don't have hands, and therefore no fingers,

Unknown Speaker (00:32:23.700)

so they can't have rings.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:24.660)

They can't put the rings on the fingers.

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The ring is an essential part of the union.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:27.859)

That makes sense.

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You're not wrong.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:29.619)

And then how would they kiss the bride?

Unknown Speaker (00:32:31.940)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:32.259)

They don't have a body.

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No lips.

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No lips.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:34.420)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:35.539)

So, you know who has lips?

Unknown Speaker (00:32:38.420)

MacGyver.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:38.900)

A Kardashian?

Unknown Speaker (00:32:41.140)

So, let's hear some more about some angels.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:44.180)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:44.579)

Like, maybe how they save missionaries.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:46.500)

Okay.

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What's interesting about the Christian interpretation of angels is that in the book

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of Hebrews in the Bible, that we should anticipate the possibility that we would encounter an angel.

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In other words, it says sometimes when you're providing hospitality to someone,

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unbeknownst to you, it's an angel.

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And so, there's an anticipation that perhaps there could be angelic encounters.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:10.180)

And so, what I tried to look at in the book are cases in which we have angelic encounters.

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People actually encounter an angel.

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I'll give you an example.

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There was a missionary named John G.

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Peyton, P-A-T-O-N, from Scotland.

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And he went to an island in the South Pacific to be a Christian missionary.

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And he and his wife were living in a cottage there.

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And he's talking about Jesus.

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Well, the local tribes people didn't quite like that.

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And so, one day a mob of them came to burn down their house and kill them.

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So, they see this mob forming.

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And he and his wife are in their house.

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And what can they do?

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They start to praise.

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Like, God, protect us.

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Help us.

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They're going to kill us.

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They're going to burn our house down.

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What do we do?

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And they prayed all night long.

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And by dawn, the mob began to dissipate.

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A year later, he led the head of that mob to faith in Jesus Christ.

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Oh, my God.

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And they're having a conversation.

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And John said, by the way, do you remember that day when you all came to burn down our

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house and kill us?

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Why didn't you do it?

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And the man said, well, who are all those men you had there?

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He said, no, no, man, it was just my wife and I.

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Your house was surrounded by these muscular men and white guys with drawn swords.

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There's no way we could have hurt you that night.

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Injected in my veins.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:29.940)

Well, what's the explanation for that?

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I think it could very well have been an angelic encounter that God had sent angels to protect

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him.

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It only makes sense.

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That's the only thing I can think of.

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That's the only explanation I can think of.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:42.579)

I think you and I are both having, like, flashbacks to bullshit stories people told us when we

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were in youth groups.

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So many of these.

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And it's always, it's always the, and then they prayed all night.

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It's all night.

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It's never they prayed for a couple hours.

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It's never they prayed for two nights.

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It's always the whole night.

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God needs the full eight hours, man.

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Yeah.

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And if you clock out early, the mob's coming in.

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Absolutely.

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You're done.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:09.619)

Yeah.

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When Lee asks, what's the explanation here?

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It's key to remember that he's not really asking a question.

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He's arguing that angels were protecting this guy's house and there's no other possible

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explanation that we can come up with.

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This is a cute anecdote.

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And I remember hearing shit like this all the time in youth group, because these are

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stories meant to appease the audience of the faithful.

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This is the type of content you throw out to literally preach to the choir because no

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one else is going to be persuaded by this at all.

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For one thing, this is a third hand story at best.

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The mob leader is telling the missionary about something he allegedly saw.

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Then the missionary is retelling the story and Lee is retelling hearing about the missionary's

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story.

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Right.

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This game of telephone doesn't inspire confidence.

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Further, you notice that Lee knows the missionary's name, but not the guy who saw the angels.

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Yep.

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That's suspicious.

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So Lee uses this anecdote in his book to argue for the existence of angels, but he doesn't

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use the testimony of the guy who saw the angels or even the missionary, John Gilbert Patton.

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He cites Billy Graham discussing Patton's story, which is another layer of interpretation

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which is being added to this whole thing.

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Including Billy Graham, which increases the likelihood of truth.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:23.619)

Yeah.

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Billy Graham used this story in his 1975 book Angels, God's Secret Agents.

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Lee is just taking Graham's version of the whole thing, which isn't very inquisitive

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of him and makes me think that he doesn't care for empiricism.

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This is because John Gilbert Patton wrote an autobiography that was published in 1889

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and this story is in there.

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You aren't going to get the account of the random mob leader who supposedly saw angels,

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but Patton's story is closer to the event than Graham's retelling of it.

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So Lee should have consulted that for his book as opposed to Billy Graham's version

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of the story.

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You'd think.

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Because if he had done that, he would find that Graham is mistelling the story and there's

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no angels in it.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:04.980)

Oh, what?

Unknown Speaker (00:37:06.260)

What?

Unknown Speaker (00:37:07.059)

So to set the scene, Patton and his associates were setting up a mission in the new Hebrides.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:12.579)

There's some islands in the vicinity of Australia.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:15.059)

All right.

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For the most part, the native population accepted merchants and missionaries, but there had

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been a flare up recently due to a quarrel between sandalwood merchants and some locals.

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That'll happen.

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This led to some murders.

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Hey, what you gonna do?

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In the aftermath of that, it looked like a full-on war was going to break out, but tensions

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lowered.

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All the same, Patton's mission wasn't viewed the same after that, and a lot of people on

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the island viewed him as the enemy.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:38.820)

Sure.

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A while after that, a chief from another island came to visit and died shortly after returning

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home.

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Eee, that's no good.

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Some people, quote, hearing of his death ascribed it to me and the worship and resolved to burn

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our house and property and either murder the whole mission party or compel us to leave

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the island.

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I mean, it does make sense.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:57.380)

Well, there's at least a little bit more of an A to B.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:59.780)

Exactly.

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It's like, sure, you can believe in angels.

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I believe that this happened.

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We just move on.

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That's how it works.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:05.780)

So at this point, Patton had some allies among the native population, like a chief named

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Nawat, who spoke in Patton's defense and tried to get them.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:14.260)

Hey, don't burn down his house.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:14.980)

Hey, come on.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:15.380)

This guy's just one of...

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He's just a guy.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:16.980)

Yeah, but it wasn't enough.

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Quote, the inhabitants from miles around united in seeking our destruction, but God put to

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it even savage hearts to save us.

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A meeting of all our enemies on the island was summoned, and it was publicly resolved

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that a band of men be selected and enjoined to kill the whole of those friendly to the

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mission.

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Frenzy and excitement prevailed, and the blood fiend seemed to override the whole assembly.

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When under the impulse that surely came from the Lord of Pity, one great warrior chief

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who had hitherto kept silent rose, swung aloft a mighty club and smashed it earthwards, cried

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aloud, the man who kills Meecee must kill me first.

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The man that killed the mission teachers must kill me first and my people, for we shall

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stand by them and defend them till death.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:00.739)

Sure.

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So the guy who stands up for them ends up getting a slow clap of the chiefs who are

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all like, we got his back.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:08.039)

Right, right, right.

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We got the missionaries back and then the mission saved.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:11.000)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:12.440)

So let me follow this evolution, if you will.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:16.360)

So in this real story, well, as real as we're gonna get out of this.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:21.559)

I mean, it's a late 1800s autobiography by a missionary who seems to think that he's

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part adventurer, which is kind of a fun tone.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:31.400)

He also doesn't seem to hate native populations, but also kind of hates them.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:35.719)

I mean, what are you gonna do?

Unknown Speaker (00:39:36.920)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:37.320)

But the point being, the native population is all doing what they do and the hero of

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the story is one of those people.

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Right.

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And obviously you're gonna say he's moved by the Lord of Pity.

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God moved his heart to protect them, but it is out of the goodness of these chiefs standing

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up for them and protecting them that they didn't have their mission burned.

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So then notoriously white supremacist Christian Billy Graham gets a hold of this story and

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those men are no longer native, but in fact, white roped white people holding swords?

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Muscular.

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That's crazy.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:17.320)

That is just crazy.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:19.239)

Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So in his story, Patton says, quote, clearly did our Lord Jesus Christ interpose directly

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on our behalf that day.

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I and my defenseless company had spent it in anxious prayers and tears and our hearts

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overflowed with gratitude to the savior who rescued us from the lion's jaws.

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So when Lee tells the story and asks, what's the explanation?

Unknown Speaker (00:40:39.159)

I find his disposition to be dishonest.

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The explanation is obvious.

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A missionary who died in 1907 wrote an autobiography that at times reads like Tin Tin.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:50.840)

Yeah.

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And then a craven evangelist came along and embellished the story for his own book about

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angels being secret agents for God.

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Explain that with your science.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:00.199)

Lee isn't interested in digging down to uncover truth.

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He's just financially invested in perpetuating the same shit Billy Graham was pursuing.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:07.159)

Yep.

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And man, I might read the rest of that guy's autobiography.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:13.880)

I mean, that sounds fun.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:15.239)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:15.480)

Those old timey adventure stories are truly great and a lot of them have some truth to

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them.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:21.480)

Yeah.

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And he seemed like an unreliable narrator, but like in a fun way.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:26.840)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:27.079)

They're all really unreliable narrators because they're just white people having a grand time

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in the late 19th century.

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Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:33.800)

What are you going to do?

Unknown Speaker (00:41:34.360)

It's long enough ago that I think I can chuckle.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:37.079)

Yeah.

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But also it's horrible.

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Can't do anything about it now.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:40.199)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:40.599)

Let's just face it.

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There's no going back now.

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So I think that this story sucks and Lee's argument for angels still at zero.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:50.599)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:51.480)

But Tucker is like, fuck, yeah, give me another one.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:53.960)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:54.519)

And there's multiple numbers of cases like that.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:58.920)

Give me another.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:59.880)

Well, I had an encounter myself when I was 12 years old.

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It was the only dream I remember as a child.

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It was more of a vision than a dream.

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An angel appeared to me and started extolling heaven.

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How beautiful and wonderful heaven is.

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And I looked at him kind of offhandedly and said, well, you know, I'm going to go there

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someday.

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And he looked at me, he said, how do you know?

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And I was shocked by that.

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Well, how do I know?

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And I started to kind of stumble around to justify my goodness.

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I said, well, I obey my parents pretty much.

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I get good grades in school and my friends like me and I'm trying to justify why I would

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get into heaven.

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And he looked at me and he said, that doesn't matter.

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And this chill went through my spine.

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How can this not matter?

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And he said, someday you'll understand.

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And then disappeared.

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Well, I kind of wrote it off as being a bad pizza and ultimately became an atheist.

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But 16 years later, as an atheist, my wife brought me to a church and I heard the gospel

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for the first time.

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That salvation, that the doors of heaven are not flung open based on how nice you are to

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your parents or how good grades you get in school.

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It's based on the grace of God.

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It's not something we earn.

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It's a free gift of God's grace.

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And I heard that message for the first time and my mind flashed back to that dream.

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And I thought, wait a minute.

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That's what he was trying to tell me back then.

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Have you thought a lot about that dream in the subsequent years?

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It would come to me every once in a while.

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I think about it.

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I just suppress it.

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Well, it was a bad pizza, you know.

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But then I thought there's two forms of corroboration there.

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Number one, that angel told me something when I was 12 years old.

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I did not already know.

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Fair.

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That salvation is by grace.

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I'll count that one.

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He made a prophecy, a prediction that someday I would understand that came true 16 years later.

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Boom.

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I think that may have been an angelic encounter that I had.

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I can't prove it, but that corroboration tells me maybe it really was.

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I'm sorry, but I don't care about this dream at all.

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And I have to insist that it doesn't prove anything.

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If Lee wants to take some personal meaning from it and if that's important to him, then

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I don't want to insult that or take that away from him.

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But pretending it's anything more than that is idiotic.

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The fact that this is the second example he has when trying to argue for the existence

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of angels is a bad sign.

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Should be a strong indication that his argument is some weak shit.

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You know, here's what I'm thinking.

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Where I'm coming from right here is if you do the hard numbers, the hard economics, right?

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I think in October there's well over 100 new sci-fi fantasy books coming out.

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And of those, less than 100 are going to sell more than 2000 copies.

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That's just the truth of the market.

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That's just how it works.

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But boy, buddy, Christian bookstores.

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Especially Christian apologetics texts from big name people who are established in the

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field.

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Lie off the shelves.

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Well, and probably subsidized by bulk purchases from churches.

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You better believe it.

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There's all kinds of them.

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It's definitely a cooler business to be in than sci-fi.

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Yeah, that's the way to go.

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Because it's very similar, but one is more lucrative.

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I also have a working theory that Lie wrote this almost the same book about five years

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ago and he's just doing it again.

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That probably sounds right.

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Anyway, we'll get to that later.

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But I could nitpick around and say that he could have been more aware of Christianity

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as a child than he's letting on, or that he probably rewrote this memory of the dream

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in his head 1000 times.

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But I don't want to do that because I don't care.

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I will not argue against the meaning that Lee personally has for this dream, because

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that's for him to decide.

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I will just flatly say that dream based evidence is not evidence.

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So no matter how convincing the story is or isn't, it means nothing in our search for

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angels.

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If you're accepting angels visiting you in a dream and telling you riddles as a form

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of evidence, you're not interested in evidence.

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This is bad.

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You know, I love these stories because of the way they're told in different places.

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This story told in the church group is very God heavy.

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This story told in a dinner party, far less God heavy.

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More of just like, you know what?

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Here's an interesting thing that might have happened to me.

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Tucker right in the middle of those two, I think.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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Probably a little closer to church than dinner.

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I would say we're probably more in a we can speak freely zone than elsewhere.

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If that's where we're I mean, Tucker's been bit by a demon.

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Yeah, but weirdly, Tucker can't speak freely because he's not bringing up the fact that

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you got attacked by a demon.

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It is really weird that you've got a demon guy and you're not talking about being attacked

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by a demon.

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It's literally all I was thinking about while I was watching this.

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The whole time.

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Yeah.

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Crazy.

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So look, angels exist.

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Sure.

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We've established this.

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Yes.

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Should you pray to angels?

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No.

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You and Lee are in agreement about this, but there's nuance.

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No.

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But the other thing I learned in my investigation of angels, I thought, you know what?

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I don't think it's appropriate to pray to angels.

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I don't believe we're taught to do that.

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I think there's a slippery slope.

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If you pray to angels that it might slip into worship of angels, which would be blasphemous.

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But there's nothing wrong with praying to God about angels.

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Martin Luther in the small catechism has a prayer, an evening prayer that says,

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Lord, send your holy angels to protect me from the evil one.

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And so I never used to do this, but I now make part of my prayer that God would send

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angels to protect me and my family, my ministry, my grandchildren.

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And so I think that's totally appropriate to do.

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Hate to brag, but we're pretty confident this show is the most vehemently pro-dog

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podcast you're ever going to see.

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Okay.

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Jarring.

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Talking about whether you can pray about angels.

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And Tucker comes in with his love of dogs.

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You know what that ad is for?

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What?

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Dog telemedicine.

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That's not good.

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Do you want to have a webcam then?

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I really don't.

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I really don't.

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You know, I was just thinking that Jesus was just so mean to those money lenders.

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You know, like that's a real dick move.

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They didn't deserve that kind of treatment.

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They need to be more accepting of pro-dog podcasts.

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That's what's important here.

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So you're talking about Jesus and the money changes.

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Who do you think that Tucker will later compare to the modern day people that Jesus would

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throw out with whips?

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You know, I bet it's not money lenders.

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It's not.

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Yeah, probably Antifa?

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LGBTQ.

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There we go, baby!

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Hit it!

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So when I think about why I believe in something, generally I'm like, people did in the past,

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so I should too.

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Is that how that works?

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For Tucker, it is.

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Interesting.

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Has there, are you aware of any society in the known history of the human race that didn't

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believe that there was a supernatural realm with good and evil?

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Yes, virtually universal.

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I've never heard of any culture that didn't believe that except post-war West.

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Drop the atom bomb, get rid of the supernatural.

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Right.

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Because we're God now.

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Yeah, that's right.

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But before then, I mean, I just think this was taken as a matter of course.

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Of course, yeah, naturally.

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So if every society in known history reaches a version of the same conclusion, it suggests

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maybe there's something there?

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It sure does.

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It sure does.

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Why would you come up with that?

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Exactly.

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You know, it's funny.

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So Tucker's not this stupid and him making an argument like this is a weaponized attack

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directed at the audience.

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Yeah.

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The argument is supposed to be that in the past, everyone believed in a demonic and angelic

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supernatural realm, so we should too.

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Sure.

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It was pretty universally believed that the sun was God and the earth was flat.

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So why should we reject those widely held beliefs just because we're so cool and modern now?

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Yeah.

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This is dumb.

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Fucking kids with their TikTok.

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Explain that with your science!

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When Tucker's laughing making that argument, I think he's laughing at the people who believe

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that he's making a real point.

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There's a part of me that feels like there's a disdain for like, this is so easy.

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That is a ridiculous thing to say, especially because we all know that there is a society

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that lives beneath the ground that worships an unexploded nuclear bomb.

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And that movie was in the past, so it was in the past.

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Right?

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Now I know it was said in the future, but it was in the past.

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It's also part of lost.

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Sure.

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There's definitely that.

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Absolutely.

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And there's also past and future and lost.

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What do we do?

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I don't know.

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Every society's always believed in that, dumb dumb.

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What are we doing?

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What are we talking about?

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I think that you and I are both kind of a little bit short-circuity because it's almost

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a non-sequitur.

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It doesn't mean anything.

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It's crazy to use that as a thing to say.

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Yeah.

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I think that what Lee is coming in with is a bit of a swing.

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And they say that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

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He says nah.

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People will say, well, you need extraordinary evidence to prove an extraordinary claim.

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Which I don't think is legitimate.

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I don't think that stands up to scrutiny.

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But let's take it for a moment on face value and say you need extraordinary evidence to

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prove an extraordinary claim.

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Well, the claim that there are demons is not an extraordinary claim.

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Interesting.

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Because 95% of humanity through history has believed in it.

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Interesting.

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So if you're an atheist, the onus is on you.

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You must present the extraordinary evidence that the demonic does not exist.

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No, I don't.

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When people say that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, they just

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mean that if you're making a claim that flies in the face of existing evidence, your evidence

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needs to be more compelling than the existing evidence that says you're wrong.

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The burden of proof falls upon a person who makes an affirmative claim.

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Because trying to do things the other way is impossible.

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For example, in this case, I can't satisfactorily prove to you that demons don't exist.

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Hmm.

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In the same way that I can't prove that any fake thing doesn't exist.

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You can't prove a negative, which is why you can't put the burden of proof onto a position

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that requires you to do that in order to establish that position.

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Sure.

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When people argue against vaccines, it's not fair to demand that they prove that vaccines

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don't work, because that would be impossible for them to do.

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What's expected of them is to critically attack the existing evidence that argues that vaccines

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do work.

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Vaccines do work as an affirmative position that people can prove by providing supporting

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evidence, and then people who want to be contrary and try to poke holes in that evidence.

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This is how this works.

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The game.

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Lee is telling me that demons exist, so he's on the fucking clock.

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I'm not interested in disproving the existence of demons, so the only thing that's going

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to happen here is he can present information that I'll respond to, or we can go home.

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He can just pretend that his belief in demons is the default position, and I'm somehow out

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of step with history because I don't share it, but my little secret is that I don't give

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a fuck.

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I don't care about how he feels about this.

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Yeah.

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I will prove it by living my entire life never having encountered a demon and then dying,

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and then neither of us will care.

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Proof.

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Ta-da.

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Done.

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So this next clip I think is revealing about Tucker's psychology, and I think this scared

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me a little.

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Well, there are also moments in the life of every person who's awake and not on fentanyl,

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maybe even people who are on fentanyl, I hope, where you know that you are being acted on

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by an outside force of some kind.

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You have no idea what it is, but there are moments when you are much better than yourself,

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much more empathetic, and there are other moments where you're seized by the desire

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to destroy for the sake of destruction, which also doesn't make any sense.

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There's no kind of evolutionary biological accounting for that.

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Why would you want to be a person for no reason?

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Yes, there is.

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Another person, an object, but the impulse to destroy clearly the hallmark of evil, right?

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It is, and it's consistent with the Christian teaching that the demonic realm exists, that

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it is intent on luring us away from him.

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I don't know if the desire to destroy for the sake of destruction is like a universal

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thing, or if Tucker just thinks it is, because I think it's probably more a piece of his

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out-of-control anger that he feels all the time.

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Sure.

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Instead of dealing with the causes of that anger and letting go of his bullshit, I guess

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he's just decided to pretend that he's plagued by demons who control his impulses and behavior,

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because I don't relate to that.

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I don't relate to the desire to destroy just for the sake of destruction.

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I would say that, in general, this type of thinking comes from people who are terrified

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of taking responsibility for their own behavior, generally because they're fathers, period.

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We're in the CIA?

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Something along those lines.

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I just find it unrelatable, and it feels more like a glimpse into Tucker's mind than

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anything else.

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Yeah.

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I think it's almost...

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It feels excuse-y.

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You know, what I've experienced with that specific, that kind of like, destruction for

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destruction's sake, is that is somebody who thinks it is better morally or philosophically

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to destroy something for destruction's sake than for the reason that they are actually

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doing it.

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That is usually like, oh, it's just destruction for destruction's sake, as opposed to, I want

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to obtain something and I am going to destroy this to get it.

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Yeah, I can see that, and I think that that falls under the headline, or the heading that

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I had of excuse-y.

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Yeah.

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It's rationalizing what is a different impulse.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So we've already heard a couple of dumb stories about people being saved by angels that don't

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seem convincing.

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Not very convincing.

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How about another one, though?

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Is it white people?

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No.

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And it's a guy in a car.

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Excellent.

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So you said that angels in the New Testament, perhaps also in the Old, but angels are described

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as present in our world.

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Yes.

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We will mistake angels for people.

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Very well, that's right.

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That's predicted.

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So do you think that happens?

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Yes.

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And if so, can you give us an example?

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And what would be the purpose of that?

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Yeah, you know, it's interesting.

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In the book of Hebrews, it says that we will do it unbeknownst to ourselves.

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So in other words, the implication is that we will have angelic encounters, but we won't

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realize they're angels.

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And I think that does happen.

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Now, I have a couple of cases in my book.

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One is a pastor who is driving his car in Ohio.

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He loses control of the car.

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He hits a telephone or an electric transformer, kind of a pole type of thing.

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The wires fall down on his car.

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The doors are jammed shut.

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The electricity is coursing through the car, so much so that the windshield starts to melt.

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And he's trapped in this car.

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He doesn't know what to do.

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And he begins to pray, God, I'm stuck.

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I don't know what to do.

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And a man, scruffy kind of guy, comes walking up to the car.

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And he opens the car whose doors were jammed.

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He opens the door.

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He reaches in.

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He lifts out this pastor and takes him about 50 yards away from the car, which then explodes.

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And he says to the pastor, he says, you're going to be OK.

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You're OK now.

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But the police are on their way and I can't be here when they get here.

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So you just know that you're OK.

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And he walked away and disappeared.

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Now, the people, the medics who came, the emergency technicians and so forth that came

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as a result of the accident and they look at the cars, they can't explain how this is possible

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that somebody could have opened that car door and not been electrocuted and rescued this pastor.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:33.639)

And yet it happened.

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And the pastor says, I believe it was an angel.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:39.079)

Well, maybe could have been.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:42.519)

How do you prove something like that?

Unknown Speaker (00:58:44.119)

But I mean, how do you explain it away naturally?

Unknown Speaker (00:58:46.840)

Just because you don't have a ready natural explanation for how something happened,

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that doesn't mean that you have to give credibility to a supernatural explanation.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:54.440)

This is a dumb leap that he's making.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:56.280)

Now, so.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:58.599)

Oh, no, I just I just finished.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:00.679)

I just read this book, Ghosts of Hiroshima, which is another it's I think it's pretty new,

Unknown Speaker (00:59:05.639)

but it tells a bunch of these stories of the the survivors of people who were in

Unknown Speaker (00:59:12.440)

Hiroshima when the nuclear bomb landed and exploded.

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And there's just these blast zones.

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And it's a reproducible phenomena in all of these types of things.

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They're just these random spots where this person will be telling you a story about how

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they were having a day and then the entire universe around them was gone and they were fine.

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Right now, if that person genuinely wanted to be like, there's an angel,

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I'd be like, man, if anybody was ever getting an angel and I was going to take it, that'd be fine.

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And they were like, isn't that crazy?

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This coincidence that happened?

Unknown Speaker (00:59:47.639)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:48.119)

Yeah.

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And I think that this might fall under some of that headline or some of that heading.

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Yeah.

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Lee is supposed to be a guy who likes empirical evidence and he proves things.

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He works in a paper.

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But in this story, there's no evidence of anything.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:02.360)

There's a story that a pastor told after he was in a car accident

Unknown Speaker (01:00:05.639)

outside of this one person who was probably in shock after the crash.

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No one saw this other character in the story.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:12.840)

This scruffy stranger may not exist.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:15.079)

It was Bagger Vance, actually.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:16.440)

It could have been.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:18.280)

Well, it is true and confirmed by emergency responders that an electric transformer did

Unknown Speaker (01:00:23.079)

fall on this guy, John Boston's car, and that electricity was surging through the car.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:27.800)

When they arrived on the scene, we don't know if the door was actually jammed.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:31.719)

It might've seemed like the door was jammed initially after the crash,

Unknown Speaker (01:00:34.679)

but then he was able to get it open on a second or third try.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:37.960)

Who knows?

Unknown Speaker (01:00:38.599)

There's a lot of possibilities that aren't even involving malice or lying.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:43.880)

No.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:44.280)

There could just be the way your brain incorporates information.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:48.679)

Absolutely.

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So Boston claims that his seatbelt was stuck and that this scruffy guy named Johnny

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got him out of the car, but he doesn't know if he cut the seatbelt.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:57.400)

The car ended up pretty badly burned, so I'm not sure there's any way anyone

Unknown Speaker (01:01:01.400)

would be able to tell that one way or the other.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:04.519)

So Boston's family was doing a vlog on YouTube around the time of this accident,

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so they ended up recording a fair amount of him in the hospital right afterwards.

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It's notable that in that video, he doesn't seem to know what year it is.

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He thinks that it's July when it's actually April, and he appears to be on some painkillers.

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At one point later in the vlog, his wife says, quote,

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Okay, he's coming too. He knows I'm recording now.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:30.280)

Basically, everything about this story that makes it seem like maybe an angel was involved

Unknown Speaker (01:01:34.360)

comes from one single person, so it's pretty easy for me to reject this as a solid piece of

Unknown Speaker (01:01:39.480)

evidence of angelic intervention.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:42.519)

Looking at the verifiable information about this incident, you can definitely say that

Unknown Speaker (01:01:46.199)

this dude is lucky, but jumping to it was an angel is something you would only do

Unknown Speaker (01:01:50.840)

if you were desperate to back up your belief in angels.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:53.320)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:54.039)

Because otherwise it's just this guy told the story.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:59.079)

There's I guess I get it. I kind of don't. I really don't get angels.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:05.320)

Of all the ones that there are, I just don't get angels. I don't get that concept.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:09.880)

I don't get the idea of like, oh, somebody's always watching over you.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:13.480)

I don't get away from me, man. Get away from me.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:16.920)

Don't you have somewhere to be?

Unknown Speaker (01:02:18.599)

I think as you get older, you might warm up to angels.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:22.280)

You think so?

Unknown Speaker (01:02:22.920)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:23.559)

I think demons are young for the young angels for the old.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:27.639)

Right. Demons are cool. Hanging out, doing the sexes.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:31.159)

Running away from them.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:32.199)

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:32.679)

You want to fight maybe?

Unknown Speaker (01:02:33.480)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:33.960)

Maybe you're scared.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:34.920)

Right. And angels, you're really hoping somebody will give you a ride.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:38.280)

Yeah.

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Company.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:39.880)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:40.360)

You're sitting around the house.

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Who's an angel?

Unknown Speaker (01:02:44.840)

So we now have to get off the subject of angels.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:48.840)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:49.159)

Because it's time for the dark.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:50.679)

It's demon time.

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It's time for a demon feast.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:53.480)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:54.039)

What are demons?

Unknown Speaker (01:02:55.719)

Demons are fallen angels.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:57.480)

So the Bible is a little bit vague on this, but apparently what happened there was a-

Unknown Speaker (01:03:02.920)

And kind of funny if I could just pause.

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This is my totally ignorant read of it.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:07.000)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:07.639)

But when the supernatural host, all these supernatural beings are referred to in the

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Bible, there's almost a sense in which the writer is assuming the reader already knows all this.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:20.519)

Yes. That's right. It doesn't have a passage that says, by the way-

Unknown Speaker (01:03:24.119)

Right. These things are real.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:26.039)

Yeah. Let me explain all this to you. It doesn't do that, which is interesting.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:30.599)

Because the culture at the time was familiar with this and there was

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no debate that there was a supernatural world.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:39.400)

It's sort of like the soul. I have a chapter in the book on the existence of the soul.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:42.840)

And because a lot of scientists today will deny that the soul exists.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:48.360)

The Bible doesn't say, by the way, you have a soul and here's, let me define it for you.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:52.599)

It presumes that we have a soul.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:54.519)

Scientists will deny the soul exists.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:57.079)

So most of what the big health companies sell is loaded with sugar and fillers and synthetic junk.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:02.599)

It's probably not too good for you. And that's why we're interested in a company called Peak.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:06.679)

It's a modern wellness brand that is actually healthy.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:10.599)

It's good for your soul, which does exist. And scientists will tell you it doesn't.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:15.000)

Scientists will tell you the soul doesn't exist? Prove that with your science.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:20.760)

And my science will tell you that this supplement that I'm selling will be good for your demons.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:26.119)

It'll keep demons at bay.

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Science backed science.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:29.880)

Old literature often is reflective of the cultural milieu in which it was written.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:34.360)

And it doesn't take the time to explain why certain things are the way they are.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:38.599)

A lot of early American literature takes it as understood that slavery is a natural thing and

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there's a racial hierarchy. That doesn't mean that those things are correct.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:47.320)

It just means at the time a writer didn't feel the need to justify everything

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that they knew that their readers would understand.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:53.239)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:53.880)

This doesn't prove that demons or souls are real.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:57.079)

It just means that it was a part of the culture at the time.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:59.719)

It proves that it was a thing then.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:03.159)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:03.880)

Great. We already knew that because it's there.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:09.159)

I love whatever it's just something like. Isn't this really interesting?

Unknown Speaker (01:05:13.000)

It sounds like it was almost written by some asshole. Just some regular asshole guy who was

Unknown Speaker (01:05:18.119)

like, hey, how about I add this? Not some sort of guided immortal force. Just some asshole.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:25.559)

Yeah, it sounds human and of the time.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:27.719)

Yeah, weird.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:28.599)

Yeah. So do you believe in a soul?

Unknown Speaker (01:05:31.320)

Uh, I mean, where? Where am I keeping it?

Unknown Speaker (01:05:36.119)

What?

Unknown Speaker (01:05:36.760)

Where am I keeping the soul?

Unknown Speaker (01:05:38.119)

Somewhere in.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:39.480)

Okay. Well then.

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Somewhere in here.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:41.079)

All right. I mean, sure.

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I can't imagine it's lower than the chest, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:05:45.159)

Doesn't that feel right?

Unknown Speaker (01:05:46.760)

Well, the gut maybe. You know, some people.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:48.679)

People do say, I mean, where is it like, that's what the spleen is for. The soul-ing.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:55.880)

I think we can definitely agree it's not in the legs.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:59.079)

Yeah, definitely not in the leg. Left leg especially. That femur is not holding the soul.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:03.400)

Sinister left. That's what we're talking about.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:05.639)

Good point.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:06.519)

Anyway, if you don't believe you have a soul, you're probably going to genocide people.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:09.960)

That sounds true.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:10.920)

Life.com. highly recommended.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:13.480)

By the way, anyone who denies the soul exists, probably getting ready to genocide you.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:20.599)

Kind of a soulless experience.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:22.119)

Well, if there's no human soul, then how is murder wrong?

Unknown Speaker (01:06:25.159)

Well, exactly. And they'll say free will is impossible. So there is no free will.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:29.639)

Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. But demons, it started out with Lucifer.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:34.119)

Yeah, that's a good place to start. You're going to talk demons and start with Lucifer.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:37.639)

Sounds right.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:38.360)

So I think a lot of the people who have committed genocides historically have been people who have

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religious convictions and probably affirm the existence of a soul.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:44.840)

What?

Unknown Speaker (01:06:45.400)

Kind of a problem for Tucker's argument. I'll be straight up. I don't think I believe in souls,

Unknown Speaker (01:06:50.360)

but that ambivalence doesn't affect my belief that murder is wrong. You can justify that position

Unknown Speaker (01:06:57.079)

a lot of ways that don't involve souls, like that it's just wrong to take away another person's

Unknown Speaker (01:07:01.079)

subjective experience of life or that taking life is a transgression against the community

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that can't be tolerated. There's a bunch of paths.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:07.559)

Whatever you like.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:08.519)

If you incorporate an idea of a soul into your morality, that's great. It can add color and

Unknown Speaker (01:07:14.519)

texture to your beliefs and make living a little bit more fun. I have no problem with that.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:19.239)

On the flip side, if you need the idea of a soul to create a functioning morality,

Unknown Speaker (01:07:24.199)

you're a baby and you should not be taken seriously in public discourse.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:29.000)

Yeah, it's not going to go well.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:30.360)

Oh, you need a soul.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:31.719)

It's such a strange argument to make. If there's no soul, then why is murder wrong?

Unknown Speaker (01:07:39.320)

When it feels like it's the opposite. Like murder, if you have a soul, it's going to keep going.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:46.280)

Murder's not even really a thing. It is only the cessation of your physical body.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:50.840)

If you don't have a soul, you're actually murdering somebody. You're killing them.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:56.760)

That's an interesting point.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:59.000)

I doubt he's thought about it.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:00.360)

No.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:01.239)

And Lee certainly doesn't bring it up.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:02.519)

No, I would strongly doubt that.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:04.280)

But in fairness to Lee, it's because there's more important shit going on.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:07.719)

That's probably true.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:08.679)

Like Lucifer.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:09.800)

That is definitely true.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:11.159)

We got to talk about the big guy.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:12.599)

How's he doing?

Unknown Speaker (01:08:13.320)

He's, man, he's bad.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:14.599)

Oh, bummer.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:15.480)

It started out with Lucifer, whose name means morning star.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:19.800)

And he was kind of first among angels.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:22.119)

Name means morning star?

Unknown Speaker (01:08:23.479)

Yeah. Lucifer.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:25.079)

What are we doing? What is this?

Unknown Speaker (01:08:26.920)

Satan, which and the name Satan literally means adversary.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:30.920)

And so the implication of scripture is that this very prominent angel named Lucifer

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wanted to be worshiped. He's the one who wanted to worship.

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And so his pride is what resulted in him falling from the angelic realm, becoming Satan,

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becoming someone.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:48.680)

I mean, think about this.

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When Jesus encounters Satan, what is it Satan wanted from him?

Unknown Speaker (01:08:53.000)

Worship.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:54.680)

Satan wanted Jesus to worship him.

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And that's what Lucifer wanted.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:58.600)

He was pride that got in the way.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:00.520)

He becomes Satan.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:02.039)

And a certain percentage of the angels accompanied him in this fall.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:07.079)

This happened before the fall of humankind in the Garden of Eden.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:10.760)

So this predates that.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:12.119)

Forty percent?

Unknown Speaker (01:09:12.680)

You don't know how many angels accompany him, but there are a lot of angels.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:15.800)

Seems important.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:16.520)

In Revelation chapter five, there's a scene of Jesus on the throne being worshiped.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:21.560)

And if you do the math, because it talks about it a little cryptically,

Unknown Speaker (01:09:26.119)

it was a hundred million angels worshiping him at that time.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:30.119)

So there's a lot of angels.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:31.640)

That's a lot of angels.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:32.840)

At that time, though, we don't know what their reproduction rates are because they don't vary.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:36.279)

They don't have bodies.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:37.560)

Right. So how many are there now?

Unknown Speaker (01:09:39.720)

I guess God could make more, but they don't reproduce because they have no bodies and don't marry.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:44.520)

What are you doing with those hundred million?

Unknown Speaker (01:09:48.439)

What are you doing with all those angels?

Unknown Speaker (01:09:52.359)

Where are they going?

Unknown Speaker (01:09:53.000)

What do they do?

Unknown Speaker (01:09:53.720)

What do they have to do?

Unknown Speaker (01:09:55.319)

Wreck sports.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:56.920)

That does make sense.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:58.199)

That does make sense.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:59.159)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:59.640)

All of these...

Unknown Speaker (01:09:59.960)

Start a little soccer league.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:01.159)

All of these outfields need an angel, God damn it.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:04.520)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:05.079)

Inspiring children to do their best.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:08.840)

That's fair.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:09.399)

That actually would be a pretty solid use of angels.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:11.720)

So I got to say, this is grounded and verifiable stuff.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:15.319)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:15.800)

And I'm glad that Lee is staying in this empiricism pocket.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:19.960)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:20.520)

This guy loves to prove things and I tip my cap.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:24.600)

His history as a journalist and his study of law has really informed this knowledge

Unknown Speaker (01:10:32.680)

that there are a hundred million angels.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:34.359)

Well, it's cryptic.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:35.079)

A rough percentage of them did fall to where?

Unknown Speaker (01:10:38.279)

Don't know.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:38.760)

Again, they don't have bodies.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:40.119)

Well, the hundred million is cryptic too.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:42.199)

That is cryptic.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:43.000)

In the Bible, in Revelation five, it says, quote,

Unknown Speaker (01:10:45.079)

that I looked and heard the voice of many angels,

Unknown Speaker (01:10:47.479)

numbering thousands upon thousands and 10,000 times 10,000.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:51.399)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:51.960)

Is that cryptic?

Unknown Speaker (01:10:53.479)

Thousands upon thousands and 10,000 times 10,000 is not a number.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:58.439)

No.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:59.079)

10,000 times 10,000 is a hundred million.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:01.640)

That is a number.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:02.520)

So is that cryptic?

Unknown Speaker (01:11:04.199)

I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:05.319)

Is that exact?

Unknown Speaker (01:11:06.359)

I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:07.000)

Who's keeping...

Unknown Speaker (01:11:07.720)

Who's counting?

Unknown Speaker (01:11:08.520)

Is there a guy at the door with a clicker?

Unknown Speaker (01:11:10.520)

One in, one out.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:11.479)

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:12.039)

It has to be one in, one out.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:13.399)

Otherwise you can't keep track.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:14.920)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:15.399)

I do like the round number too.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:17.560)

It is nice of God to be nice.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:19.640)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:20.439)

Also, I love Tucker's fucking specialty, the hot pitch that you responded to that.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:27.399)

That like, what?

Unknown Speaker (01:11:30.039)

The face that he does and the fake sort of like, oh my God, that's so interesting.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:35.399)

He says that Satan Lucifer's name means morning star.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:38.520)

Fuck you.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:39.560)

Fuck you.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:40.119)

You got attacked by a demon, you dipshit.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:41.960)

In no world is this news to you, you dumb fuck.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:45.479)

Fuck you.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:46.199)

But that's what he does like nobody else.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:48.520)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:49.159)

That, that what?

Unknown Speaker (01:11:50.279)

And he's just got that sense of believability for a guy like this.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:53.960)

Who's like, see, he's getting it.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:56.279)

He's got such a punchably stupid face and like he commits.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:00.920)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:01.399)

He doesn't care that it's very transparent.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:05.159)

And you know, that's kind of fun.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:06.439)

So he's got, he's got a power to him.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:08.680)

So you scared, you scared of Lucifer?

Unknown Speaker (01:12:10.680)

Oh, not particularly.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:12.119)

I feel like he's probably bored by now.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:14.760)

No.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:15.720)

Really?

Unknown Speaker (01:12:16.279)

He's fucking busy.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:17.479)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:17.960)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:18.439)

He's so busy.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:19.880)

I mean, we got to, you got to stay busy in retirement.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:22.680)

I mean, it makes sense.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:23.720)

I don't know if he's retired.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:25.319)

It seems to me from listening to this thing, like he's got to be like running all over the place.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:31.079)

He's not omniscient like God is.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:33.000)

He's not omnipresent like God is.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:35.159)

In other words, the guy was telling me, he said, there's probably never a time when you

Unknown Speaker (01:12:39.720)

and Satan have both been in the same zip code because he's only one place at a time.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:45.800)

And so he's got things he's doing.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:47.880)

He's probably never been in the same zip code.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:49.399)

You have thought his demons probably have been, and they carry out his will, which is to

Unknown Speaker (01:12:56.199)

pull people away from God, to discourage people in finding God,

Unknown Speaker (01:13:02.119)

and to drag as many people to hell with him as they can.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:04.920)

Now, his existence, he's sort of on a leash by God at this point.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:10.439)

His ultimate destination in the lake of fire is already predicted.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:14.600)

So he has no future really, but he has influence and he has certain powers.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:20.840)

And he and the demons are very intuitive.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:24.600)

You'll think they know more than they know, and they go after people.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:30.680)

Damn it.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:31.800)

This sucks.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:33.319)

I hate this kind of shit where the devil is the CEO of Evil Incorporated,

Unknown Speaker (01:13:37.720)

and you've just dealt with middle managers all your life.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:40.920)

Jesus Christ.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:41.640)

Like Satan is so busy and he can only be in one place at one time.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:45.399)

So like, where is he?

Unknown Speaker (01:13:47.079)

Why?

Unknown Speaker (01:13:47.640)

What are the powers?

Unknown Speaker (01:13:48.760)

I wanted exact accounting for his powers.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:51.560)

How does he travel?

Unknown Speaker (01:13:52.840)

Right?

Unknown Speaker (01:13:53.819)

What are we talking about?

Unknown Speaker (01:13:54.939)

What is he busy with?

Unknown Speaker (01:13:56.220)

What is he?

Unknown Speaker (01:13:58.140)

What zip code is he in?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:01.659)

Why is he in any zip codes?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:03.579)

In what possible facet could he need to exist within a place?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:07.739)

Let me ask you another question.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:09.180)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:09.579)

Because he would be in a zip code.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:11.739)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:12.060)

That implies there's a physical form.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:13.340)

Physical form.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:14.140)

How big is he?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:14.939)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:15.659)

Can he be all encompassing?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:17.340)

Is he Godzilla sized?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:18.539)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:18.779)

Now imagine this.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:19.899)

Sure, he's not omnipresent, but can he be any size?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:23.979)

Can he be the size of a planet?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:25.500)

Ant-Man style.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:26.539)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:26.939)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:27.500)

Are we varying in size?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:28.939)

What is our power set?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:30.539)

I want to know whether or not he could defeat Batman.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:33.020)

Well, so far, he pretends to know more than he does.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:43.260)

I love the way I'm supposed to be afraid of Satan and his demons,

Unknown Speaker (01:14:47.020)

and yet everything that he says makes him sound stupid.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:50.539)

I'm just picturing a John Edward psychic type who's like,

Unknown Speaker (01:14:55.260)

I see somebody with a letter M in the audience.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:57.819)

Interesting.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:58.220)

Somebody who's pretending to know more than they actually do,

Unknown Speaker (01:15:01.420)

but who's also late and needs to get somewhere.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:04.619)

That's not a devil I'm super freaked out about.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:08.140)

And just that lovely part of like,

Unknown Speaker (01:15:10.380)

well, and God's got him on a leash for right now, which is like, really?

Unknown Speaker (01:15:15.579)

So then everything is his fault.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:17.100)

Again, everything that you're ascribing to Satan.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:19.979)

If somebody's got a dog on a leash,

Unknown Speaker (01:15:23.020)

that person is responsible for what the dog does.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:25.899)

No, no, no.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:26.539)

Because the dog has demons.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:30.220)

That's fair.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:30.779)

The dog's demons aren't on a leash.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:33.100)

They could be anywhere.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:34.060)

You can't leash something and also not be responsible for what that thing on your leash does.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:39.899)

Also, I would suggest that we have a finite number of demons.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:44.859)

Interesting.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:45.420)

I mean, he says a percentage of the angels left and became demons.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:49.100)

And there can only be a hundred million possible demons theoretically based upon 100%.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:55.020)

10,000 by 10,000.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:56.140)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:56.619)

That's cryptic.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:57.340)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:57.979)

But like there's a finite number.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:00.140)

So humanity should get it together and start fucking hunting these demons.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:04.619)

I think we could take them out.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:07.100)

There's 8 billion of us.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:08.939)

But what would we do?

Unknown Speaker (01:16:10.619)

What would we hit them with?

Unknown Speaker (01:16:12.380)

There's no physical...

Unknown Speaker (01:16:13.579)

Or do they get physical bodies?

Unknown Speaker (01:16:17.020)

You just have to yell Jesus at them.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:19.180)

Oh, that sucks.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:20.300)

Right?

Unknown Speaker (01:16:20.619)

I mean, like exorcists...

Unknown Speaker (01:16:22.300)

This is a bad word.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:23.260)

Exorcists are effective.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:24.619)

Yeah, that's true.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:25.420)

They have to be.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:26.060)

In their world.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:26.779)

So like, I think we could take care of this demon thing.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:31.020)

You know what?

Unknown Speaker (01:16:31.659)

This is how I feel about vaccines.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:33.979)

You know what I'm saying?

Unknown Speaker (01:16:34.699)

Like once we found out we could get rid of a disease,

Unknown Speaker (01:16:38.060)

we should have had a task force that's like,

Unknown Speaker (01:16:39.899)

now we're hunting every one of these fuckers down.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:42.619)

To the extent that we can do that without creating more really dangerous things.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:48.939)

There needs to be smart people in charge of it.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:50.619)

But you know the concept.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:51.659)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:52.060)

Like we're going after you.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:53.180)

We're going to win this one.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:54.460)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:54.699)

There's no reason that polio should exist.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:56.699)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:58.779)

So yeah, demons could...

Unknown Speaker (01:17:01.020)

It's a solvable problem.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:02.380)

We could handle this.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:03.340)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:03.819)

And then that raises the question if Satan can create more demons.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:08.699)

Or does he have to try and convince them?

Unknown Speaker (01:17:10.859)

Or...

Unknown Speaker (01:17:11.659)

Oh yeah, like try and recruit some angels.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:13.340)

Exactly, exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:14.300)

Of the pool that are still left.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:15.979)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:17.899)

Or can he promote?

Unknown Speaker (01:17:20.380)

Can he turn you into a demon?

Unknown Speaker (01:17:22.140)

Okay, okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:22.380)

So he's grabbing us.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:24.619)

Blood in, blood out.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:25.579)

A demon gets their ass kicked by a guy.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:27.739)

Jesus!

Unknown Speaker (01:17:27.979)

Then boom!

Unknown Speaker (01:17:28.859)

We show up.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:29.659)

Now you're demon number 45,942.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:33.180)

And maybe you're not great.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:35.260)

I mean, you've never practiced being a demon before.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:38.300)

It's mostly just pretending you know more than you do.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:44.939)

And I guess giving people what they want.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:47.979)

Yeah, going bah.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:49.260)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:49.979)

So we got to get into a little exorcism talk.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:54.140)

Okay, of course.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:55.020)

Now we find out about a guy, a psychiatrist named Richard Gallagher.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:00.460)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:01.340)

I tell the story in my book about a very prominent psychiatrist named Richard Gallagher,

Unknown Speaker (01:18:07.579)

educated Ivy League University.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:10.539)

I have a quote from the former president of the American Psychiatric Association

Unknown Speaker (01:18:14.060)

calling him highest integrity, totally trained and prominent in his field of psychiatry.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:23.979)

Of course, he's a medical doctor because he's a psychiatrist.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:27.020)

Just extolling him as an individual and as a scientist, as a psychiatrist.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:32.619)

And about 25 years ago, he had two cats.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:35.819)

And they got along great.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:37.500)

They slept together.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:38.220)

They played together.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:38.939)

Everything was fine until one night the cats started to attack each other viciously.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:45.260)

I mean, they're trying to kill each other.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:46.699)

They're clawing each other, snarling each other.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:48.539)

They're biting each other.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:49.739)

It was unbelievable.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:51.420)

They pulled them apart and put them into separate rooms and thought, what in the world was that

Unknown Speaker (01:18:55.819)

all about?

Unknown Speaker (01:18:57.260)

At 9 a.m. the next day, the doorbell rings and it was a preset appointment.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:01.819)

A Catholic priest was bringing by a woman to be examined by Dr. Gallagher.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:06.779)

She claimed that she was a high priestess of a satanic cult.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:11.020)

And he wanted her to be examined.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:12.699)

Was she demonically possessed?

Unknown Speaker (01:19:14.060)

Was she just crazy?

Unknown Speaker (01:19:15.020)

You don't have to finish this story.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:16.859)

So at 9 a.m. the doorbell rings for his appointment.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:20.140)

Dr. Gallagher opens the door and here's this woman who claims to be a high priestess of

Unknown Speaker (01:19:24.300)

a satanic cult who kind of looks up at him and sneers at him and says, so how'd you like

Unknown Speaker (01:19:30.859)

those cats last night?

Unknown Speaker (01:19:35.739)

There's something going on.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:36.699)

Yeah!

Unknown Speaker (01:19:37.739)

Got you with the cats, dude!

Unknown Speaker (01:19:42.619)

Good stuff.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:44.060)

Good stuff.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:46.779)

No notes.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:47.659)

Nope.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:48.460)

What a story.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:49.260)

Good work, demons.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:50.539)

Convincing story well told.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:54.460)

So Richard Gallagher is a disaster.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:56.300)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:56.859)

According to his story, he was a doctor minding his own business when he got called

Unknown Speaker (01:20:01.739)

a woman who he refers to as Julia who claims that she was the queen of a satanic cult.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:06.060)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:06.619)

She'd reported herself to a priest who wanted to talk to Gallagher about whether she was

Unknown Speaker (01:20:10.539)

mentally ill or maybe this was a real possession situation.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:14.060)

Interesting priest.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:14.939)

Hence the consult.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:15.899)

Naturally.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:16.619)

In the context of their sessions, Gallagher claims that he witnessed magical things that

Unknown Speaker (01:20:20.220)

Julia did like levitating for half an hour and seeming to do telekinesis.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:24.859)

Amazing.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:25.579)

He's seen all sorts of stuff like all this kind of crazy shit.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:29.180)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:29.500)

But unfortunately he just has to take his word for it.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:31.579)

There's no proof of anything.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:32.539)

He just got to take his word.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:34.939)

Gallagher's seen so much magic, but nobody can prove any of it, which is part of the

Unknown Speaker (01:20:40.779)

devil's plan.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:41.979)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:42.699)

He was interviewed in Esquire in 2020 and he had the best explanation for why there's

Unknown Speaker (01:20:47.340)

no proof of anything he claims.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:49.739)

Quote, you're dealing with creatures who know you're studying them, observing them,

Unknown Speaker (01:20:53.260)

and trying to tape them.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:54.699)

A lot of people think they're going to capture evidence on camera and prove the existence

Unknown Speaker (01:20:58.220)

of demons to the world, but these creatures know when they're being filmed.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:02.220)

They're not about to cooperate when a large part of their efforts have been to hide themselves.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:06.699)

They're not about to make their existence obvious to people.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:09.260)

That is fair.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:10.539)

Makes total sense.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:11.579)

I mean, first off, they're canonically older than us, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:21:17.180)

So they've had more practice being existing.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:20.539)

They never die.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:22.220)

They have exactly the same amount of experience with cameras.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:26.380)

That is a good point.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:27.899)

That is a good point.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:29.659)

There's no way they could possibly have had more experience than us on account of we invented

Unknown Speaker (01:21:33.819)

them unless they invented them somehow.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:36.859)

I guess that's possible.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:37.899)

I suppose.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:40.060)

So I like a demon that operates on the same rules as fairies for Charles Dickens.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:45.340)

So that's nice.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:46.380)

I appreciate that.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:48.380)

I don't fuck with your cats.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:49.500)

I don't... Man.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:51.819)

If that's what you got, if that's what you got, how you liked them cats last night, you're

Unknown Speaker (01:21:56.619)

done.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:57.020)

No demon.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:57.819)

I'm not afraid of demons.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:59.260)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:59.579)

Zero fear.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:01.180)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:01.579)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:02.140)

I have had a number of nights where Selene has acted out of character.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:07.979)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:08.460)

Out of sorts, where she'll be like running around the house all crazy.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:11.180)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:11.739)

The next day, witches have not shown up at my house and taunted me about her running

Unknown Speaker (01:22:16.060)

around.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:17.180)

Oh, I also need to make a correction.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:19.020)

Gallagher didn't actually see Julia levitate.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:21.260)

He just heard from some other people that she did.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:23.579)

Oh my God.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:24.380)

So I'm convinced.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:25.819)

You know, this is why you gotta give a little bit of respect to L. Ron Hubbard.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:30.060)

At least whenever he tried to prove it, he got a crowd out there.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:34.699)

He had the woman trained to do the thing, and then obviously she failed in going clear

Unknown Speaker (01:22:39.979)

as bullshit.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:40.699)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:41.180)

But at least he gave it a shot.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:42.619)

He's a gambler.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:43.579)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:43.899)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:44.220)

What if it worked this one time?

Unknown Speaker (01:22:46.060)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:46.380)

It'd be crazy.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:47.500)

So there's no information in this story that doesn't come from Gallagher himself.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:51.819)

So a naturalistic explanation for this is that Gallagher is not trustworthy.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:56.460)

He believes other people telling him that someone levitated.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:59.100)

So I wouldn't be too surprised if this woman showed up at his house and said, like, nice

Unknown Speaker (01:23:03.180)

cats.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:03.739)

And that turned into proof that she'd possessed the cats the night before or some dumb shit.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:09.020)

Anyway.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:09.899)

How do you like those cats?

Unknown Speaker (01:23:12.060)

Is that a genuine question?

Unknown Speaker (01:23:13.180)

Yes, it is.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:13.739)

I'm genuinely interested as a high priestess of a Satan cult.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:17.659)

We're pretty into cats, buddy.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:19.659)

It's kind of our thing.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:21.020)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:21.420)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:22.060)

So possession happens.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:24.220)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:24.539)

Possession is nine tenths of the law.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:26.220)

Nice.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:26.619)

But this is a different God's law.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:28.380)

No.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:28.779)

No.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:29.100)

And there's no nine tenths with possession demon wise, because a true Christian can't

Unknown Speaker (01:23:35.579)

be possessed.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:36.380)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:37.180)

Because God's in there.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:39.180)

A true Christian cannot be demonically possessed.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:43.979)

And the reason is a true Christian is indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:46.939)

He can't be indwelled by evil and good like that in the same way at the same time.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:50.939)

So Christians, they're a rule possessed physical rule oppressed.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:55.420)

They can be Hector.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:56.460)

They can be bothered.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:57.500)

They can be attacked by demons.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:00.460)

And there are some amazing examples of that.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:04.699)

And I just mentioned a couple.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:06.220)

So how does he know that?

Unknown Speaker (01:24:07.899)

Like, has he done studies on Christians and found that it's impossible to possess them?

Unknown Speaker (01:24:12.220)

Yeah, I'm interested in this.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:14.140)

I'm interested in some corroboration on quote unquote, a true Christian.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:18.619)

There's nothing.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:20.220)

It sounds like a perfect time, though, for Tucker to chime in and say, I was hecked by

Unknown Speaker (01:24:23.579)

a demon.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:24.140)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:24.779)

Strangely, it doesn't come up.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:25.819)

But he wasn't possessed.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:26.859)

So he should bring up that he is a true Christian.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:29.340)

Otherwise he would have been possessed.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:31.020)

But he was true.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:32.060)

So he was Hector.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:32.699)

So he was just Hector.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:33.739)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:33.979)

Let me ask you this question.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:35.100)

Please.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:35.739)

Is the ratio of Christian proportional to the ratio of possession?

Unknown Speaker (01:24:43.979)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:44.220)

So if I'm like 40% Christian, do I get a 60% demon possession?

Unknown Speaker (01:24:48.859)

No, I don't think so.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:50.220)

I think it's all or nothing.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:51.579)

It's all or nothing.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:52.619)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:52.859)

So you're either true Christian or you're demon possessable.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:55.420)

I think that, yeah, with the Holy Spirit when it comes in you, it's just a yes or no proposition.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:05.020)

There's no half Holy Spirit.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:06.300)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:06.699)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:08.380)

And that's the closest thing to believing his points I'll have.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:13.899)

It's like, yeah, it's all or nothing.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:14.859)

Good.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:15.180)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:15.739)

Okay.

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So I'm the demon.

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Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:18.140)

Right.

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I don't have a physical form.

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No, because you're an angel originally.

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Exactly.

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You don't marry.

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Right.

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And I'm definitely not married.

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And so I'm like, oh, I'm going to possess this person.

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You dating?

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Do I know in advance?

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Can I see like, oh no, there's the Holy Spirit.

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So I'm not even going to bother this person.

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Or is it while I'm trying to possess you that I get hit by the Holy Spirit?

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And I'm like, motherfucker.

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And then I start like poking you.

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It's like an airplane bathroom.

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Yeah.

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There's a little sign.

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Okay.

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All right.

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That's what I needed to know.

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That's what I needed to know.

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Okay.

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I think that's how I imagine.

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All right.

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So look, there's miracles all around us.

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Sure.

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And Lee talks about his standard for figuring out whether something is a miracle.

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That's a good question.

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Or someone just saying some stuff.

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That's a good question.

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For me, as I investigate another area, I investigate in the book, are miracles.

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And for me, if you have solid documentation, medical documentation, if you have multiple

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eyewitnesses with no motive to deceive, if you have no natural explanation that seems

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logical that can account for the phenomenon, and if it takes place in the context of prayer,

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then I think it's logical to conclude that a miracle has taken place.

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Yes.

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And there have been miracles published in peer-reviewed medical journals.

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So Lee's standard for justifying belief in a miracle is faulty.

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And I don't believe for a second he isn't fully aware of it.

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Yeah.

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He says that he'll believe something is a miracle if people involved don't have a motive

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to lie about it.

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Does he think that Billy Graham has a huge motive to lie about that story about the missionary

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or not?

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What's his take on that?

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I don't think I trust Lee's ability or willingness to judge whether someone has a motive to lie

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about something.

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And even in a perfect world, people often have hidden motives.

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Lee is selectively gullible, which is on purpose.

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Yeah.

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And it's a business strategy and a survival mechanism.

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For this bullshit.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It is interesting to have so much burden of proof for a miracle and no burden of proof

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for a demon can't get inside you if you're a true Christian.

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Right.

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Obviously.

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You're full.

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Yeah.

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Duh.

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There's too much of the Holy Spirit and yet the guy can't fit.

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Because it's got a physical...

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Well, no, he doesn't.

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No, no, he doesn't.

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No, no.

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Yeah, shit.

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So, but you want that burden of proof.

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Of course.

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And you want to hear what the information is.

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Absolutely.

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How about something that's published in a fucking journal?

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Yes.

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Okay.

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I got you.

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Nice.

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And there have been miracles published in peer-reviewed medical journals.

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I talked about one in my book.

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Here's a woman who was blind for 12 years with incurable condition.

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She went to a school for the blind.

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She learned to read Braille.

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She walked with a white cane and she married a Baptist pastor.

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And one night they're getting ready to go to bed.

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She's already in bed.

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He comes over to her and he puts his hand on her shoulder and he begins to cry.

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And he begins to pray and he says, Lord, I know you can heal my wife.

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I know you can heal her right now.

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And I pray that you do it tonight.

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And with that, she opened her eyes to perfect vision.

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She said, I was blind when my husband prayed for me.

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She prayed.

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I opened my eyes.

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I can see.

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It's a miracle.

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That was researched by multiple medical researchers and published in a medical journal as a case

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study.

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What do you do with that?

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What do you do with that?

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What did they do with it?

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What did they do?

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It kind of leaves it up to the reader to say, what's your conclusion?

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Because they were upset by it.

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Well, yeah, but it certainly does point toward a supernatural event.

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Who is upset about what?

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Right?

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Are you saying that the hospital people are like, oh, miracles.

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I hate it when God heals people.

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Tucker has such a knee jerk, instinctual need to like make himself and Christians a victim

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and everything.

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Yeah.

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It's very sad.

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Everybody would be like, hooray.

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Everybody was like, hooray.

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This is fine.

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This is great.

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So this is from a 2021 article published in the journal Explore.

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To put it as politely as possible, Explore is a bullshit journal that publishes a ton

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of pseudo scientific stuff, and it is not taken seriously in an academic setting.

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But just saying that would be shooting the messenger.

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So I decided to give this article a little once.

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You decided to explore it.

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Yeah.

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As the name would suggest or demand.

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Learn for yourself.

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So the woman in this case study was born in 1940 and went blind for unknown reasons in

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1958 when she was 18.

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This timing is a small issue because as the paper points out, quote, this case predates

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the availability of much of the ophthalmologic testing now used for diagnoses.

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That means that the information about her condition that led to the experience of sudden

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blindness is murky, and we don't really know all that much.

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She was married to a pastor, and then in 1972, he prayed for her to regain her sight, and

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she did that night.

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Apparently, this was not something he had prayed about prior in their years of marriage,

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which I find to be an incredibly dubious claim.

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Also, if true, he's kind of a dick.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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So this also stuck out to me from the case study.

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Quote, their only prior experience with prayer for healing seems to be when the patient and

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her husband had briefly visited the meeting of a well known healing evangelist, but they

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left before the time in the meeting when the healing practices began.

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That gives me the same kind of energy as Bill Clinton saying he didn't inhale.

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Yeah.

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You know what I mean?

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Like, I don't believe you.

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Wow.

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You went to this faith healer.

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Come on.

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Of course.

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Calm down.

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Get the hell out of here.

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So he says that she had instantly perfect vision, but in fact, the next documentation

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of her vision is from 1974, two years after she regained her sight, and she was 20 over

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100.

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I don't know if science has a specific explanation for why this woman regained her sight, but

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I also don't think that the details of this case are that compelling.

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For one, I don't believe that they never prayed for her to be healed before.

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But even leaving that stuff aside, this case is being published in a shady journal, and

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if you go to the funding section, you'll see that it was paid for by the very suspiciously

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named Global Medical Research Institute.

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Hmm.

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A lot of words that sound good.

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Man, those are the scariest names in the history of the world.

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Americans are great.

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Foundation.

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Can't trust you.

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The GMRI is an outlet that funds papers and promotes the medical benefits of proximal

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intercessory prayer or laying on hands, like as opposed to prayer over distance.

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Right, right, right, right.

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Yeah.

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This is a critically biased source, as evidenced by a blog post on their website titled, quote,

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Should I support GMRI?

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Quote, The answer is that you can't afford not to support GMRI.

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Without strong scientific evidence that in-person prayer has positive effects on health, authorities

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have prevented Christians from offering prayer and claiming that they even believe God can

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heal.

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Sure.

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This is a faith healing advocacy group, so it's hard to imagine that they would publish

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a study of someone miraculously getting their vision back and then work all that hard to

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poke holes in the idea that faith healing did it.

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Yeah.

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Treating this case critically is literally the opposite of their mission statement, and

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it shows.

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These are all very serious credibility issues that Lee would care about if he was actually

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the person he's pretending to be.

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Yeah.

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If he were actually interested in sorting out the truth from bullshit in the area of

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the supernatural, then he wouldn't be so excited to embellish and misrepresent information

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like this that comes from obviously biased sources.

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You know, it's interesting to think of my origin story in the context of God being real,

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right?

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So my origin story begins with faith healing gone wrong, where they tried to do the faith

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healing and then they killed the kid, right?

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So if they still want to do the faith healing is real thing, then they have to say that

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God chose specifically to kill this kid, right?

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So maybe the leader of your group wasn't on the up and up.

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Whatever you like.

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God disfavored him.

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Sure, exactly.

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But again, God chose to kill this kid as opposed to healing these other kids.

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It's the same with literally every miracle healing.

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Exactly.

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You have to be like, well, okay, well then I guess he chose all of these other people

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are dying.

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Right, right.

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But in this specific context, it also is a organization that broke up because of it.

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So God also included breaking up this Christian organization.

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So does that mean they were all evil or that maybe any number of possible situations?

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The faith healing went wrong in order to knock over all the dominoes that it would

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take for you to be here.

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Exactly.

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Any number of those things.

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But the point being...

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And that's a miracle.

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If you're going to do the anecdote story, you have to do both of them.

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They both exist within the same context.

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I feel like just stop it with the anecdote.

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That'd be nice.

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The way that he's trying to convey this information is really dumb.

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And the rhythm is so...

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Like these stories all have the same spoken word rhythm.

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Yeah, but doesn't he...

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Like what I said at the beginning, doesn't he kind of sound more pleasant than a lot

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of the people that we end up...

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He's got...

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I mean, yeah.

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He has a smile in his voice.

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He has a little laugh to him that I think he enjoys life more than a lot of these other

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assholes.

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These are more fun stories to tell than the like...

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If you're choosing this side of things, you've got the, we're all going to die, everything's

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going to explode by gold.

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Or you've got, do you know what?

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They prayed all night.

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And what happened the next morning?

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Miracles.

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Like that's pretty fun.

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Yeah.

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It's probably a better head space.

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Yeah.

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So there's some more miracles if you're down.

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Sure.

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Let's see what we got.

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I don't know if you wanted to hear about some more healing.

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Yeah.

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But here's what's interesting.

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There's a woman with a PhD from Harvard who's a professor at Indiana University, Major Secular

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University.

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And she said, I'd like to test whether miracles are possible.

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How can we scientifically test that?

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So here's what she did.

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Miracles tend to cluster in places where the gospel is just breaking in.

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And so we see them in China, in Mozambique, in Brazil, places where the gospel is taking

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root.

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We see miracles taking place in a disproportionate number.

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So she says, I'm going to put it to the test.

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So she sends a team of scientists to Mozambique and researchers to Mozambique.

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And they go into the bush and they say, bring us all your deaf and blind.

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So they bring all the people deaf, blind, or with severe hearing or vision problems.

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They bring them and they test them scientifically right there.

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What is your level of vision?

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What is your level of hearing?

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They get that scientifically established.

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Then immediately they are prayed for in the name of Jesus by people who tend to have a

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track record of God using them that way.

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And then immediately after that, they're tested again.

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Guess what they found?

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Improvement in virtually every case.

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In fact, get this, the average improvement in visual acuity was tenfold.

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Wow.

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No, that's unacceptable.

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What?

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No, you can't do like pretty good.

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That's not how your God works.

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You can't do like, oh man, they went from 20 over 100 to 2040.

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Can you believe that?

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Right.

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And if you look at the actual study, there's a bunch of people who have like false positives

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who claimed that they were better, but the numbers didn't show that.

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Sure.

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All right.

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I don't know about this.

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So this story that Lee is telling goes back to a paper published in the Southern Medical

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Association's journal in 2010.

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This isn't a shady outlet like Explore, but you'll see that there are some very serious

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problems with this study.

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Lee's version of the story is that a researcher at Indiana University wanted to test miracles.

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So she went to Mozambique and what do you know, she found that prayer fixes everything.

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All bullshit.

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Amazing.

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The author of this paper went to Mozambique because there was already a woman there claiming

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that she was healing everyone with prayer.

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This was Heidi Baker, one of the founders of Iris Ministries, who in collaboration with

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another missionary outlet called Global Awakening, was running charismatic Protestant services

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in rural Mozambique.

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The researchers were at church services between June 4th and 12th, 2009, where people in attendance

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were told, hey, if you're deaf or blind, you should come up to this designated area where

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people will pray for you to be healed.

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This is already shit based on the design of how they're carrying this out, but it gets

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worse.

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Yeah.

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Here's a description from the published paper about how they did their healing.

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Published paper.

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Yeah.

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Gotcha.

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Quote, Western and Mozambican, Iris and Global Awakening leaders and affiliates who administered

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prayer all used similar protocol.

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They typically spent 1 to 15 minutes, sometimes an hour or more, circumstances permitting,

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administering prayer.

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They placed their hands on the recipient's head and sometimes embraced the person in

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a hug, keeping their eyes open to observe results.

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In soft tones, they petitioned God to heal, invited the Holy Spirit's anointing, and commanded

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healing and the departure of any evil spirits in Jesus's name.

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Those who prayed then asked recipients whether they were healed.

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If the recipient responded negatively or stated that the healing was partial, prayer was continued.

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If they answered in the affirmative.

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This is making a murderer.

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In Mozambique.

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If they it, making a miracle.

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Oh, there we go.

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If they answered in the affirmative, informal tests were conducted, such as taking recipients

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to repeat words or sounds like hand claps in tone from behind or to count fingers from

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roughly 30 centimeters away.

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If the recipients were unable or partially able to perform tasks, prayer was continued

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for as long as circumstances permitted.

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Jesus Christ.

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You basically have someone touching you and emotionally begging you to say that you have

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been healed.

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And if you say no, they keep begging you.

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It's a fundamentally flawed design for research.

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And I would say that it's not even really all that established how severe or real the

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people's hearing and vision problems were.

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The study makes it clear that they had a limited amount of time and a limited access to any

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kind of facilities or technology.

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So like, you could, in theory, be at a charismatic Christian revival kind of thing.

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Yeah.

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And they're like, hey, I want to heal the blind.

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And you could go up and pretend your vision was worse than it was.

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And there's no way they would know.

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So like, all of this is shit.

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It's not a good experiment.

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It's not a controlled environment.

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No.

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It's not probably going to get you the results that you're looking for.

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Also, like, this dude, Lee, is saying, like, oh, these miracles seem to pop up in places

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like Mozambique and Brazil.

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And coincidentally, Heidi Baker works in Mozambique and Brazil.

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That's crazy.

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More miracles there because she's there.

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Crazy.

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It's almost like she makes it up and follows it.

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Yeah, could be.

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So all this is nonsense.

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And none of this should be surprising because the funding for this study came from the John

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Templeton Foundation, an outlet run by a weirdo Christian billionaire who believes in faith

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healing.

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He's also dead now, but his family's still alive.

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That sounds right.

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The researcher who wrote the paper is named Candy Gunther Brown, who strangely was a member

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of the board of directors of the Global Medical Research Institute, the faith healing promotional

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outlet that paid for the blindness case study.

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We're getting a lot of strikes.

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Yeah.

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The GMRI itself began as a part of Global Awakenings, which is the charismatic Christian

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group that put on the tent revival meetings in Mozambique.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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These would all be very suspicious details to Lee if you were interested in assessing

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the veracity of the claims that these people are making.

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But instead, you can see how uncurious he is, which is suspicious.

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No, no, no.

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And strategic.

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Look at that.

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There's so much corroboration.

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They're all corroborating each other.

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Each other.

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It's not corroborating itself.

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Right.

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That would be ridiculous.

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So hold on now.

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You mean to tell me that this super independent and bold researcher at Secular Indiana University

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is a board member of a faith healing promotional outlet?

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Okay.

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That's my favorite.

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Cool.

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That's my favorite evangelical speak that I just love so much.

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They can't help themselves, but from reinforcing that secular universe, like, what are we doing?

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Well, it's like Alex saying things are in the mainstream news.

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Right.

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It's like even the secular people believe us.

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Yeah, exactly.

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What are you doing?

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What is happening?

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So a lot of these studies are bad.

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No.

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Yeah.

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But they seem so scientific, which also is empiricism.

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But also we require faith.

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It's also not scientific.

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I have no faith in it.

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That fair.

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But thankfully, Lee is a go getter.

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He decided I'm going to fucking go ahead and do a study myself.

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Hell yes.

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So here we get to learn about that.

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Let's hear it.

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I did a study.

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I hired a public opinion firm to do a scientifically accurate study of American adults.

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And I asked the question, have you ever had one experience, at least in your life, that

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you can only explain away as being a miracle of God?

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38% of American adults said yes.

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Wow.

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And by the way, let's say 99% of them are wrong.

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Let's say they think it was a miracle, but it was just a big coincidence.

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So let's just wipe out 99% and say, no, no, no, you thought it was a miracle.

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It really wasn't.

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Let's wipe away 99%.

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Guess what?

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That would still mean there would be a million miracles nearly in the United States alone.

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Wow.

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If we're going to assume that 99% of these folks are wrong about the thing they can't

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explain being a God based miracle, why can't we assume it's possible that 100% are wrong?

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There's no proof of anything here.

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And yet Lee is reporting on his self-directed opinion poll as if it's evidence of a million

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miracles.

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Made it.

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When he's delivering this kind of information, it shines through how much his work, like

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this work is like intonation.

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He needs to sell things as meaning something, because if he just delivered this flatly,

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it would sound so dumb.

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Imagine, imagine for a minute, no, no, no, close your eyes and imagine that 99% of them

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aren't real.

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99%.

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That's me being unreasonably unfair for my piece.

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Cause you might think it's 50 50.

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You might think it's 60 40, but I am giving you secular Indiana university, a 99 point

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headstart.

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But if one of them is right.

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Yeah.

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Jordan, I got to tell you, there have been 10,000 reported cases of goblins out on the

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streets.

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Yes.

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And if 99% of those cases are bullshit, right?

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If just 1% is true, that's a lot of God.

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Maybe we got a goblin problem.

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Yikes.

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This is dumb.

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So that poll that Lee did was part of a book he released in 2020 called the case for miracles,

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which is a part of his, the case for series, or he pretends to present empirical evidence

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for religious things.

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Right.

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Weirdly, one of the things he argues is a miracle in that book is the study about faith

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healings in Mozambique authored by candy Gunther Brown.

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How about that?

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It's almost like a bunch of this new book is cut and paste from the other one that he

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published five years ago.

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Cause who gives a shit?

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It's tough to write a new book and people really just want to hear the hits.

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They don't care.

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No, nobody's reading that book being like, ah, update your

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miracles.

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It's just for the jolt of, yeah, it's all real.

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Yeah.

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Tell the story with a couple of change, some adjectives or whatever.

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People forget that it's the same miracle.

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Absolutely.

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Cause they're all the same miracle.

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God, what a Dick.

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Anyway, Satan.

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What about him?

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He's the ruler of the world.

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Some say.

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Why?

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What's he up to?

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That's see, this is why you and Tucker would get along.

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Cause he has the same question.

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That's a good question.

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Why is Satan?

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Why?

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What's he up to?

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There's a couple references, at least a couple references, um, in the new Testament to Satan

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being the ruler of the earth.

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Yes.

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Um, what does that mean?

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It means that in this realm, he, uh, in many ways has his way.

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In other words, he has access to be able to influence people and, um, point them away

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from the one true hope that there is, which is God.

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Um, and, and so he prowls about, uh, as the Bible says, as a lion, um, hoping to tear

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people apart spiritually.

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I mean, if that's not true, then explain the first world war.

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Yeah.

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I mean, there is just no, there's no explanation even now over a hundred years later for why

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that war started.

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Oh, you know, where it's Duke Ferdinand got shot in Sarajevo.

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Really?

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Okay.

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That's not a real explanation, actually.

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Why did Christian Europe commit suicide?

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Yeah.

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And, and there are many other wars and many other, um, tragedies in all of our lives.

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Yeah.

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Like that doesn't make any sense.

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Yeah.

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It's clearly, you know, supernatural forces are acting on people.

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I agree.

Unknown Speaker (01:46:23.340)

Or like the time you were asleep in a demon attack.

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Look, um, I think World War One was probably demons.

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I think it definitely couldn't be concentrating too much power in a small group of people

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who are somehow related to each other.

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Well, you know, the demons.

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Oh, okay.

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It could be demons.

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See, but here's the thing that I like about this.

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Yeah.

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This is a plot point in eternal darkness.

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One of my favorite video games that the, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the elder gods, uh, are

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manipulating humans into killing each other because they need the blood.

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Right.

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So World War One is, is just part of their, their feast.

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Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:47:03.340)

Um, and so I guess Tucker believes that about, about God.

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I mean, I do appreciate the motivated reasoning behind it because the other option is we all

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do government bad.

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Mm hmm.

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That really fucks up everything that everybody's doing.

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Cause maybe we should stop doing it.

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You know?

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Yeah.

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And I think that a lot of the political preferences that Tucker has in specific are ones that

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are definitely not, they lead to World War One ish type thing.

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If he was going to build a society, it would look exactly like it did when World War One

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happened.

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Thus World War One would happen.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:47:45.659)

Yeah.

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There's a high probability.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So look, Satan.

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Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:47:49.739)

Right?

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Yeah.

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This guy.

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He's a bad guy.

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But he's also got to go.

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He's got to go places.

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Right.

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He's busy.

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Right.

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Well, I mean, he's got so much to do to rule the world.

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So much to pay for.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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What's his administration strategy like?

Unknown Speaker (01:48:04.699)

Well, I don't know if we ever get to find that out.

Unknown Speaker (01:48:07.819)

Yeah.

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But we do find out that he's efficient and he is good with time and is a prioritizer.

Unknown Speaker (01:48:13.899)

Well, then put him in charge.

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If Satan were smart, which he is, would he go around the country and around the world

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trying to possess or bother average everyday people?

Unknown Speaker (01:48:27.659)

Well, you know what?

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How does he travel?

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He's efficient to go to Hollywood and to influence a bunch of people there who are very influential

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in, let's say, the entertainment industry.

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And let's say he encourages them to create films and television shows that are creative

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and are fun.

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But there's an underlying message to them.

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Feel like you're talking about something.

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A normalization of immoral activity that makes it normal.

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Because when we laugh, it opens us up to various possibilities.

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When we laugh, our defenses come down.

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So I'm thinking of a wonderful, funny TV show like Friends.

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Remember Friends?

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The TV show was on TV for years.

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Satan's Friends.

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You never saw it, but yeah.

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But underlying that is a very ugly sexual ethic that normalizes multiple sexual partners.

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You old fuck.

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The kind of thing that Satan would love to inculcate into American culture.

Unknown Speaker (01:49:25.180)

Oh, friends.

Unknown Speaker (01:49:26.300)

Are you bitching about Friends in 2025?

Unknown Speaker (01:49:30.220)

Yep.

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I mean, look.

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There's things that were on before Friends.

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People have had sex for so many years.

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Seinfeld was on before Friends.

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The Golden Girls.

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The Golden Girls got laid all the time.

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At least Blanche.

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Absolutely.

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So like, I mean, this guy sucks.

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This is amazing.

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The devil made Friends.

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Imagine.

Unknown Speaker (01:49:56.699)

What?

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What a fucking...

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Listen.

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What a fucking devil that is.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:01.659)

That is a smart devil.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:03.579)

Could he be more funny?

Unknown Speaker (01:50:11.420)

Man.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:13.500)

The devil, you know, the greatest trick he ever pulled was the Rachel haircut.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:18.220)

I'm such a big fan of when people have a genius evil villain who does exactly the dumbest

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possible thing that they think would happen.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:31.500)

Because that's the only thing that makes sense.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:33.340)

It can't be that people have fun.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:35.180)

Well, people weren't really fucking before Friends.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:37.739)

That's probably true.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:38.939)

I mean, the central perk.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:41.020)

It got people going.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:44.460)

So before Friends, everybody slept in the twin beds.

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Like in Casablanca.

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There's the twin beds, man.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:53.100)

It's the same thing.

Unknown Speaker (01:50:54.060)

But then Friends happened.

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Everybody's sleeping in the queen size.

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Together, where you can touch parts.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:00.380)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:01.100)

Disgusting.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:02.380)

And also, I think the legacy of Friends, taken as a whole, is quite monogamous.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:12.220)

I mean, Chandler and Courtney Cox get together and they get married.

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Ross and David.

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Everybody cumbles up.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:19.739)

I don't know if Phoebe and Matt LeBlanc.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:23.739)

I don't think they get together, but they're kind of weirdos.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:26.060)

Joey gets a spinoff, though.

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So you've got that.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:28.380)

And then he does a movie with a monkey.

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But that wasn't him.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:31.899)

If Friends, devil.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:36.460)

Joey, devil?

Unknown Speaker (01:51:39.100)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:39.659)

Or did Joey just negotiate that himself?

Unknown Speaker (01:51:43.180)

You know what I'm saying?

Unknown Speaker (01:51:44.220)

I think there was a lot of LeBlanc excitement.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:47.100)

I think people wanted to see him.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:48.779)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:50.460)

I think this is fucking stupid.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:51.819)

And obviously there's a bit of anti-Semitism to this.

Unknown Speaker (01:51:54.619)

Friends!

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With the way that it appears.

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It appeals to these classical narratives about Jewish people taking over Hollywood in order

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to erode the culture of the United States.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:03.340)

But I think it's more important to point out that Lee is a fucking dork.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:07.180)

Can you imagine that what devil is rebelling against God so much so that they're tossed

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into the Lake of Fire and in the meantime is like, well, I got to do Friends.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:21.020)

The one where God threw me out of heaven.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:24.380)

That was the pilot.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:25.340)

We should have known.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:26.380)

We should have seen that in advance.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:28.300)

Yeah, that all makes sense.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:29.340)

It was a very distinct origin story.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:31.979)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:32.300)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:32.779)

So this is all in service of making the argument that the devil is efficient and he wants to

Unknown Speaker (01:52:37.899)

use mass media in order to sway people as opposed to going and whispering in your ear

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at your house.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:43.500)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:44.000)

No, it does make sense.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:44.939)

Because he can only be in one place at a time.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:46.619)

I mean...

Unknown Speaker (01:52:46.779)

And he has a limited amount of demons.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:48.220)

I ask you this question.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:50.060)

How did he get there?

Unknown Speaker (01:52:51.659)

To Hollywood?

Unknown Speaker (01:52:52.619)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:53.260)

Hitched.

Unknown Speaker (01:52:54.300)

Where did he start from?

Unknown Speaker (01:52:55.420)

I mean, the obvious answer is going to be hell, but then we need a physical...

Unknown Speaker (01:53:06.140)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:06.460)

There's a hellmouth somewhere.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:07.819)

I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:08.140)

Why can't he be in more than one place at the same time?

Unknown Speaker (01:53:11.579)

Because he has to be corporeal, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:53:15.260)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:15.899)

Yeah, there's no way around that.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:17.659)

Because he can't travel.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:19.180)

Well, I would be interested to know.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:20.619)

Can he travel through the earth?

Unknown Speaker (01:53:22.939)

Can he walk from California to China?

Unknown Speaker (01:53:26.220)

You know what I'm saying?

Unknown Speaker (01:53:26.779)

Does he have phasing powers?

Unknown Speaker (01:53:27.899)

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:28.539)

Can he go through walls?

Unknown Speaker (01:53:29.899)

If he can be in one place, can he teleport?

Unknown Speaker (01:53:34.140)

I think not.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:35.180)

Because if he can be in one place at one time, then he has mass.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:39.500)

Right?

Unknown Speaker (01:53:40.140)

That would be...

Unknown Speaker (01:53:41.260)

Or at least...

Unknown Speaker (01:53:42.300)

Yeah, there's no other way to explain it.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:43.979)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:44.380)

There's just no other way.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:46.220)

Even if he's like a floating consciousness, that is spaceless.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:50.859)

That is timeless.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:52.539)

Science will one day explain this, but for now, all we got is Lee's dumb ass.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:56.539)

Apparently my science is shit.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:59.819)

So this idea of influencing leaders is something that they start talking about.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:04.539)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:05.020)

And they get into making priests abuse children.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:11.180)

That's what the devil does.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:12.699)

That feels very not like...

Unknown Speaker (01:54:15.100)

Yeah, that's what the devil's up to.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:16.300)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:16.859)

If I were trying to subvert and destroy, I would go after religious leaders.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:20.539)

I'd have them molest kids or freaky sex lives or steal money from the church.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:26.140)

I've always noticed that the leadership of Christian churches,

Unknown Speaker (01:54:31.180)

in just...

Unknown Speaker (01:54:33.260)

Numerically, way more likely to be screwed up than the people in the views.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:38.060)

Interesting.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:38.619)

Do you know what I mean?

Unknown Speaker (01:54:39.180)

You see these sex scandals with pastors and you're like,

Unknown Speaker (01:54:41.659)

how many people who are going to church every Sunday have sex lives like that?

Unknown Speaker (01:54:44.619)

Probably not very many, but a pretty high percentage of pastors.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:47.340)

And I feel like that is outside influence.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:51.100)

Like a teacher's too.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:52.220)

Teachers, exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:52.859)

Young kids look up to, you know, you can imagine when you were kindergarten,

Unknown Speaker (01:54:55.899)

first grade, second grade, you looked up to your teacher.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:58.060)

Not one time.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:58.779)

There's not one teacher I liked.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:00.060)

Oh, really?

Unknown Speaker (01:55:01.100)

Oh, I sure did.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:01.979)

I never know.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:02.539)

I felt it was an authoritarian situation.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:05.180)

I was totally opposed from kindergarten on to college.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:09.100)

One day where I respected or liked any of them, not a single one.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:15.020)

That is so funny.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:15.420)

I'm serious, too.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:16.380)

That is so funny.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:17.420)

I happened to go to public school growing up.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:19.340)

And yet back then in the 50s and 60s, most of the teachers are Christians.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:24.779)

And so I had some wonderful teachers that taught me great lessons about life.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:31.739)

You grew up in a better America than I did.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:33.739)

In Southern California in the 70s, I thought they were all buffoons,

Unknown Speaker (01:55:37.739)

freaks.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:38.460)

I wasn't taking orders from them.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:40.220)

I really disliked them.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:43.020)

Sorry, excuse me.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:43.500)

What a loser.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:44.619)

That's funny.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:46.060)

But but but if you want to lead people astray, you subvert their leaders, I guess.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:51.979)

Yes, yes, very much so.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:53.579)

Yeah, that's that.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:54.539)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:55:55.180)

So I'm sure some of the teachers that Tucker had at the various boarding schools his parents

Unknown Speaker (01:55:59.500)

paid for him to go to were annoying.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:01.020)

But man, when I hear someone go off like that, it just feels like them venting their insecurity

Unknown Speaker (01:56:05.819)

and their need to be better than any perceived authority.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:08.460)

Yeah, I mean, that's pathetic.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:10.060)

I don't believe that anyone can go through a full education without encountering at least

Unknown Speaker (01:56:14.140)

one example of an amazing teacher.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:16.460)

There are a lot of duds out there, but there are enough people who care and who are into

Unknown Speaker (01:56:20.140)

what they do that I'm certain that any adult that says I hated all my teachers is a liar

Unknown Speaker (01:56:25.340)

who's trying to look cool because emotionally they're still at that school.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:28.539)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:28.939)

And it's fucking sad.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:30.859)

There are there are more than there should be teachers who care about this shit.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:37.739)

I mean, I dropped out of high school and I had a miserable time through a fair amount

Unknown Speaker (01:56:41.979)

of my time in that era of life.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:45.659)

And there were a couple teachers that stick out to me as like amazing.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:50.060)

Yeah, no, it's ironic.

Unknown Speaker (01:56:52.140)

But the reason that they can be treated so poorly is because they care so much about

Unknown Speaker (01:56:58.140)

the students they're willing to endure trash.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:01.420)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:01.739)

And some of them suck.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:02.699)

And some of them suck.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:03.819)

Everybody.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:04.380)

Some people suck.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:05.260)

But I would say that I'm always siding with a teacher over Tucker.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:09.659)

I think in this.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:11.340)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:12.060)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:12.380)

It would be you know what?

Unknown Speaker (01:57:13.739)

You're right.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:14.380)

If there was ever any single person that could could defeat that.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:18.539)

No, it's got to be him.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:20.220)

So they you know, they're trying to make friends.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:24.140)

The show.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:24.939)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:25.180)

They're trying to get the teachers.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:27.420)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:27.819)

And now they're trying to sway the kids by having drag performers read to them.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:33.180)

And you look at if Satan's going to go after children, what is all this stuff about libraries

Unknown Speaker (01:57:37.659)

doing children's readings of and drag shows to little kids?

Unknown Speaker (01:57:42.380)

Why?

Unknown Speaker (01:57:42.859)

Why would that happen?

Unknown Speaker (01:57:44.140)

You know what?

Unknown Speaker (01:57:44.699)

Because if you can capture the mind of a child very young, it could influence them for the

Unknown Speaker (01:57:48.779)

rest of their life.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:51.100)

What happens because we put up with it?

Unknown Speaker (01:57:52.859)

Yeah, we do.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:54.140)

A healthy society would not put up with that.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:55.739)

That's true.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:56.140)

For five minutes.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:57.020)

That's true.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:57.899)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:58.619)

Sorry, they drive them out of the temple immediately with a whip.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:01.100)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:01.579)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:02.779)

Sorry, excuse me.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:04.300)

So you think that you believe that demons roam the earth?

Unknown Speaker (01:58:09.739)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:10.300)

Okay, sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:12.060)

Great.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:12.619)

So if I understand correctly, volunteering is what gets you kicked out of the church.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:18.060)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:18.539)

Or I guess, you know, being gay or a drag performer or, you know, like that.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:27.020)

No, there's no you could just you could dress in full clothing.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:32.300)

There's a drag doesn't drag is a doesn't mean anything in this context.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:36.699)

It's just purely like a short term for anybody who looks different.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:41.340)

Yeah, yeah, no, of course.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:43.020)

The society wouldn't put up with this is, boy, that's a standard that gets broad real

Unknown Speaker (01:58:49.340)

fast.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:49.819)

1950s America is your hero worshiping time period.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:53.979)

Yeah, I think that like that mentality that Tucker's expressing, a healthy society wouldn't

Unknown Speaker (01:59:00.939)

put up with this.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:01.500)

We would have driven them out a long time ago is exactly whatever one has always been

Unknown Speaker (01:59:06.619)

like, this is what you're saying.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:08.380)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:08.779)

And now you can just say it.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:10.779)

You're a Nazi.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:11.579)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:11.899)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:12.300)

So, yeah, a functioning society would burn all of its undesirables.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:20.460)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:20.779)

People who are outside the norm or would be too threatening and must be gotten rid of.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:27.420)

We should definitely have a bunch of scientists talk about how euthanasia is a preferable

Unknown Speaker (01:59:32.699)

option.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:33.100)

It's empirical.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:33.979)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:34.779)

So, look, some people are evil.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:37.180)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:37.500)

But what about places?

Unknown Speaker (01:59:38.939)

That is a good question.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:39.979)

Obviously, places can be evil in and of themselves.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:42.939)

This clip bums me out because I think Tucker wants to talk about a haunted house and he

Unknown Speaker (01:59:49.739)

just won't let himself.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:50.859)

Oh, my God.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:51.739)

I think there is there just as miracles tend to break out in a positive way in places where

Unknown Speaker (01:59:57.739)

the gospel is breaking in.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:59.500)

I think we probably see pockets around the globe where Satan has a stronghold.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:05.020)

And I would think that physical place, physical places, the Middle East, like I think Haiti

Unknown Speaker (02:00:10.539)

is a good example of that.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:11.579)

Oh, I've been in some places in the US where I felt that really strongly.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:17.180)

I've been I was in a house once.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:19.659)

I lived in a house once as a child.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:21.579)

We're part of the house.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:22.220)

There's something so wrong with it.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:23.739)

And every person who lived in the house knew that.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:25.500)

And does that sound could be could be could be an occultic thing.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:30.460)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:33.739)

What's a mystical dream?

Unknown Speaker (02:00:35.020)

Tell me about the haunted house.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:36.619)

Tell me about your haunted house.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:40.779)

I have a poltergeist.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:42.140)

I'm so disappointed that with that pivot to tell me about mystical dreams.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:46.859)

That's bullshit.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:47.979)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:48.380)

If there was something in your house.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:50.060)

My childhood home was haunted.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:51.260)

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:52.060)

Tell me about your dumb fucking haunting.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:54.220)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:54.720)

God be great.

Unknown Speaker (02:00:56.220)

So mental illness is something that exists.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:00.060)

Got to euthanize them, too.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:01.420)

Well, not really.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:03.020)

OK.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:03.899)

Because they don't exist.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:05.020)

Oh.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:05.899)

There are certain forms of what we refer to as mental illness.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:09.739)

Which is a phrase invented by people pretty recently.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:13.819)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:14.779)

And clearly there are forms of mental illness, I think, I guess, whatever that is.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:20.300)

But there are certain people who have visions that are very unpleasant.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:25.180)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:26.140)

And that bear like almost a precise resemblance to the demonic possession described in the New Testament.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:33.579)

They may be demonic.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:35.659)

I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:37.180)

I have to evaluate each one to try to determine.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:39.819)

Of course.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:40.859)

These are broad brushes, but you do.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:43.819)

Is it fair to conclude that maybe not everything the shrink tells you is mental illness?

Unknown Speaker (02:01:50.619)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:51.340)

They can never describe where it comes from or how to fix it.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:53.659)

They have no idea.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:55.260)

Whatever.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:55.659)

They know nothing, to be clear.

Unknown Speaker (02:01:58.060)

But is it fair to assume that maybe some of that is spiritual?

Unknown Speaker (02:02:01.180)

Yes, I think it can very well be.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:03.100)

So Tucker should probably just come out with it and say that he doesn't believe that mental illness is real.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:07.260)

And that people who don't conform to the sorts of behaviors he wants to see from them are probably possessed and should be beaten until the demon leaves their body.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:14.779)

This weird middle ground where he's very clearly expressing that he doesn't believe in mental illness, but also refuses to commit to that position feels dishonest and kind of cowardly.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:24.460)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:25.020)

What Tucker is doing is saying that he doesn't believe that psychiatry and psychology have the answers for what society calls mental illness.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:31.979)

So instead, you should accept his even less grounded conclusions about demons.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:37.260)

It's fine to think that mental health as a field, it doesn't have all the answers and can't provide magic solutions to people's problems.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:44.779)

But that doesn't validate the conclusion Tucker is trying to get to and replace it with.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:49.420)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:50.300)

It's like they're forgetting to do the part where they have to actually prove there are demons.

Unknown Speaker (02:02:54.859)

They're just kind of waving their hands around, whining about how we don't know everything about the world, and then demanding that I take demons seriously.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:02.539)

And I'm not going to.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:03.979)

I mean, it's funny. It's always funny and it's always fun.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:09.260)

But then it's like the real reason for demons is so eventually you can call people demons and then kill them.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:15.260)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:15.760)

That's why we have demons.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:16.779)

That's why we have the word demonization.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:18.060)

Demons exist so eventually we can say that there is a person who needs to be killed.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:24.699)

That's what it is.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:25.739)

Well, and it's unfortunate because that's, you know, the demon won't leave them.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:29.819)

Yeah. I mean, hey, it makes me a good person for murder.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:33.260)

Isn't that amazing how great demons are in that I can murder somebody, but I'm a good person for it.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:39.100)

It's merciful in a way.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:40.619)

It's crazy how good a person I am.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:42.380)

Why am I wearing this swastika?

Unknown Speaker (02:03:44.220)

Uh, it wasn't original.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:46.460)

Oh, there we go.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:47.420)

It's Indian. You know what I'm saying?

Unknown Speaker (02:03:49.420)

There we go. Yeah, I learned.

Unknown Speaker (02:03:51.020)

So you ever speak in tongues?

Unknown Speaker (02:03:55.500)

I've been to...

Unknown Speaker (02:03:58.939)

The cough was part of my speaking in tongues.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:01.420)

I've been to tongue speakings.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:03.819)

I've seen some speaking in tongues.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:05.420)

I don't know if I have.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:08.060)

I mean, I've seen like trance people trying to like, you know, speak for aliens and stuff.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:14.060)

Definitely that.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:14.699)

I don't know if I've seen...

Unknown Speaker (02:04:16.140)

Definitely not in person. I don't think I've seen speaking in tongues.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:18.939)

It's weird.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:19.979)

But it seems like it would be pretty easy based on what Lee says.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:25.420)

I have not experienced that personally,

Unknown Speaker (02:04:28.300)

but I have credible people who do and have experienced that.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:33.979)

There are other Christians, though, who say, no, no, no, that ended with the apostles.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:38.779)

So that's one of those side issues theologically that when we get to heaven,

Unknown Speaker (02:04:42.220)

we can raise our hands and ask God, hey, what about that speaking in tongues thing?

Unknown Speaker (02:04:46.220)

Yeah, no, I know that there is a debate over it.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:48.460)

I have no idea what I think about it.

Unknown Speaker (02:04:51.739)

How?

Unknown Speaker (02:04:53.020)

It is, I guess, just as a factual matter,

Unknown Speaker (02:04:55.180)

it's true that there are people who seized by some unseen force,

Unknown Speaker (02:04:59.260)

begin speaking in languages they have never learned.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:02.380)

Yes. And often this is a generally I would say this is not a language that other people speak.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:07.739)

It is a...

Unknown Speaker (02:05:08.380)

Wherever spoken?

Unknown Speaker (02:05:09.260)

Yeah, wherever spoken is a spiritual language.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:11.420)

But then there's someone and this is a good corroboration, someone who can interpret that.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:17.020)

That is a good corroboration.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:18.539)

It's a spiritual language. It's not Latin. It's not Greek.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:21.500)

It's a spiritual language and that someone else is able to hear

Unknown Speaker (02:05:25.500)

and they have a gift as well to interpret what is being said.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:30.300)

What Lee seems to be describing is someone speaking gibberish

Unknown Speaker (02:05:33.340)

and then another person making up a translation.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:36.060)

If the only people who can interpret this language are also people who have a special gift,

Unknown Speaker (02:05:40.460)

it seems to me that this is basically a short form improv game.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:44.140)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:44.939)

Also, Lee is supposed to be the guy who studied this and really tried to prove

Unknown Speaker (02:05:47.899)

that these miracles are real and he hasn't seen anyone speak in tongues.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:51.260)

Like you said, you've seen it.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:52.539)

And if you give me a week, I probably could find somebody.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:54.619)

Yeah, probably.

Unknown Speaker (02:05:55.579)

Yeah. What are you doing, Lee?

Unknown Speaker (02:05:58.779)

It's one of my favorite things that's ever been invented.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:01.659)

I think it's one of my favorite things to be able to pull this off.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:07.100)

This is the simplest two-man game in the history of religion.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:10.779)

It goes way back because obviously if you can convince a bunch of rubes

Unknown Speaker (02:06:16.619)

that you can speak in a language that only this other person could understand,

Unknown Speaker (02:06:20.380)

you can fleece them for everything.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:22.300)

Yeah, yeah. It's good.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:25.180)

It's a great game.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:26.699)

I would con people right now if I could.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:29.100)

I honestly think that it is an improv warm-up.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:33.899)

I think that doing that is a...

Unknown Speaker (02:06:36.140)

I mean, there's probably something to it now in a more genuine way,

Unknown Speaker (02:06:41.500)

but it comes from stealing from people.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:43.819)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:45.420)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:45.920)

All improv comes from stealing.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:47.260)

Well, there's that.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:48.220)

That's definitely true.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:49.500)

Improv classes are theft at least.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:51.420)

So have you died?

Unknown Speaker (02:06:53.579)

Have I died? No.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:54.779)

Have you had a near-death experience?

Unknown Speaker (02:06:57.180)

I don't believe so.

Unknown Speaker (02:06:59.579)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:00.380)

Do you believe in them?

Unknown Speaker (02:07:02.779)

No.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:03.279)

Okay. Well, you and Lee disagree on that.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:05.180)

That seems right.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:05.979)

What's a near-death experience?

Unknown Speaker (02:07:07.579)

A near-death experience is when a person is clinically dead.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:10.619)

That is generally no brain waves, no respiration, no heartbeat.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:14.060)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:14.560)

What?

Unknown Speaker (02:07:15.060)

Clinically dead.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:17.140)

Yet they're going to be revived.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:20.420)

And so they are dead for a period of time, clinically dead,

Unknown Speaker (02:07:23.699)

but they're not permanently dead.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:25.539)

So the body will be revived at some point.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:27.140)

They're mostly dead.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:27.939)

So by the measurements of science, they're dead.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:30.420)

That's right.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:30.899)

That's right.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:31.460)

So maybe right there, if we just pause, like maybe right there we have further evidence

Unknown Speaker (02:07:37.140)

that science, while useful, of course, and life improving in some ways,

Unknown Speaker (02:07:41.140)

does not have the tools to measure the totality of the experience.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:45.699)

If Lee really believes that this is what near-death experiences are,

Unknown Speaker (02:07:48.819)

then it kind of makes Jesus's whole thing not seem that special.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:52.819)

I'm not religious, but this seems like a heretical position.

Unknown Speaker (02:07:57.220)

Lee's playing word games here because clinical death is a specific term

Unknown Speaker (02:08:00.739)

that means that you're not breathing and your heart is stopped.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:03.779)

For certain conditions like aneurysms, patients can be put into a state of clinical death

Unknown Speaker (02:08:08.180)

in order for the doctors to operate on them.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:10.340)

It's risky, but it's manageable by modern science.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:12.659)

It is what it is.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:13.779)

Lee is saying that people who have near-death experiences have no brain function,

Unknown Speaker (02:08:17.300)

and that's not part of clinical death.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:20.020)

These people did not come back from having no brain function and no blood flow,

Unknown Speaker (02:08:24.260)

or else Jesus wasn't that big of a deal.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:26.340)

There's no third option here because you're dead if your brain and your body are dead.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:32.260)

Well, I mean, what's your...

Unknown Speaker (02:08:33.460)

If these people can die and then be revived by human-made shit,

Unknown Speaker (02:08:46.100)

then we have the same power over life or death.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:48.500)

That's true.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:49.539)

If you can put someone into a state of death and then bring them back.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:52.739)

And then bring them back?

Unknown Speaker (02:08:53.619)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:53.939)

That's some Frankenstein shit.

Unknown Speaker (02:08:55.380)

Well, I think it's either Frankenstein shit,

Unknown Speaker (02:08:58.500)

or we need to update and refine our position on what death is.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:02.659)

Because death does have to be the point of no return.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:05.140)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:05.460)

Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:06.100)

It's just conceptually what that is.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:07.939)

You're no longer a thing.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:10.420)

So if we can turn on and off hearts as we need to for surgeries and shit,

Unknown Speaker (02:09:15.699)

then that's no longer death.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:18.100)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:19.220)

The faster we can figure that shit out,

Unknown Speaker (02:09:21.939)

the faster we can figure out whether or not there's a soul.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:24.979)

If death is what you're saying it is, then that is when the soul has left you,

Unknown Speaker (02:09:29.140)

or the anima, or the breath, or the whatever it is you want to call it.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:33.060)

I can't help but also say that this is a really good argument for why science

Unknown Speaker (02:09:39.939)

updates with new information.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:42.020)

Science would have told you that death is one thing previously.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:45.939)

Then as we gained more information, learned more,

Unknown Speaker (02:09:48.899)

the definition of death has to change along with that.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:52.100)

Because we fixed it.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:53.779)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:55.300)

I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:57.460)

I think science is fine.

Unknown Speaker (02:09:59.859)

Also, wasn't there the guy who was like,

Unknown Speaker (02:10:02.100)

I'm going to put some stuff on top of high places in case people have the

Unknown Speaker (02:10:06.100)

near-death experience where they can see outside their body?

Unknown Speaker (02:10:09.619)

You know, like, hey, take a look, see if you can see this picture of my grandson on the top drawer.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:14.659)

I don't know about that.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:16.020)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:16.500)

There is one story that he tells of a woman who said that there was a red sticker on

Unknown Speaker (02:10:24.739)

one of the ceiling fan things.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:27.779)

But that's just a story from a preacher's book.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:30.579)

I don't know if that's true.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:31.539)

There's no corroboration of it.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:32.739)

Yeah, that sounds right.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:34.020)

But while I was poking around, I did find that when doctors are doing these surgeries,

Unknown Speaker (02:10:42.579)

they have asked people afterwards if they had a near-death experience.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:47.779)

When they had to turn off their heart.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:50.420)

And all of them said no.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:52.340)

So the ability to recreate a near-death experience has been unsuccessful.

Unknown Speaker (02:10:58.659)

Almost scientifically.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:00.260)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:00.579)

And so I'm not familiar specifically with what you're talking about,

Unknown Speaker (02:11:04.500)

but I would believe that some asshole would do that and then be like, what's up there?

Unknown Speaker (02:11:08.260)

Did you see that shit?

Unknown Speaker (02:11:10.260)

Did you see that?

Unknown Speaker (02:11:11.380)

No, then you worked dead.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:12.500)

I imagine some prick would do that too, to recover in pictures.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:16.340)

Very unnecessary.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:18.180)

Oh, you're going to die soon.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:19.699)

I'm going to put this up there.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:20.899)

Tell me if you can see it.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:22.100)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:23.060)

Oh, really?

Unknown Speaker (02:11:23.779)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:25.460)

So you're a no on souls, right?

Unknown Speaker (02:11:29.140)

I'm a no on souls.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:30.100)

I think I'm going to go with a no on souls.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:31.699)

You can't be president.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:33.060)

That's fair.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:33.619)

That's not only tragic, it's dangerous.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:36.020)

Because if you believe we are only our brain, we're only neurons that are firing,

Unknown Speaker (02:11:42.500)

that means technically we have no free will.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:45.300)

And seriously, you're saying we don't have free will?

Unknown Speaker (02:11:47.779)

How do you punish someone for doing something wrong if they really didn't have free will?

Unknown Speaker (02:11:50.819)

It also means we have no inherent rights.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:52.739)

We have no right and wrong.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:54.100)

Does a rock have a right?

Unknown Speaker (02:11:55.460)

No.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:55.960)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:56.739)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:11:57.619)

So maybe that should be a test for leadership.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:02.579)

If you don't believe human beings have souls, if that's not the basis of the way you understand

Unknown Speaker (02:12:07.140)

other people, is a separate person with a distinct and unique soul.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:10.979)

If you don't believe that, you can have no power in our society.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:15.060)

Is that fair?

Unknown Speaker (02:12:15.619)

I like that.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:16.340)

I like that.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:16.819)

I never thought of that before, but I certainly wouldn't trust a person personally.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:21.220)

Morally?

Unknown Speaker (02:12:22.260)

If they believed only that we are our brain.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:24.899)

I wouldn't give them a driver's license.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:26.579)

That's scary.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:27.699)

It is scary.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:28.180)

You don't think other people have souls?

Unknown Speaker (02:12:29.460)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:30.100)

What? You're a psychopath?

Unknown Speaker (02:12:32.500)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:33.619)

It's all right.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:34.420)

So now we're going to pass a law that you can't get elected to an office if you don't

Unknown Speaker (02:12:38.500)

believe that people have souls, right?

Unknown Speaker (02:12:40.180)

Well, that's good.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:40.659)

Yeah, let's do that.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:42.020)

So what's a soul?

Unknown Speaker (02:12:44.180)

Oh, anything that I choose to keep you from being elected to office for?

Unknown Speaker (02:12:48.500)

If you believe that humans have souls, but in more like an Eastern tradition kind of

Unknown Speaker (02:12:52.979)

way, that conception of souls, can you get elected?

Unknown Speaker (02:12:55.460)

Or do you have to have a Christian Western?

Unknown Speaker (02:12:57.300)

Also, you have to be white.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:58.579)

Ah, shit.

Unknown Speaker (02:12:59.699)

Also, small flaw in this plan.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:01.539)

If you don't believe anyone has souls, then, you know, but I still like, if I'm that person,

Unknown Speaker (02:13:06.340)

but I want to get into power, there's no reason for me not to lie and say I believe in souls.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:10.739)

It would be ridiculous.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:11.619)

Apparently without souls, morality is impossible, so lying isn't wrong for me in that situation.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:16.260)

And I can't get into office if I don't say that people have souls.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:19.939)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:20.500)

I think for the most part, you're never going to get someone running for office who's public

Unknown Speaker (02:13:24.100)

about believing that humans are just piles of meat.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:26.979)

It's not the kind of message that drives people out to vote.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:29.619)

So I think this is a problem that solves itself for Tucker.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:33.619)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:34.020)

And I think that he's just being a little douche.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:36.340)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:37.140)

Yeah, the arguments are so fucking stupid, especially because, again, if you think it's

Unknown Speaker (02:13:43.539)

over when it's over, then you won't care so much about saving people's souls by letting

Unknown Speaker (02:13:50.020)

them die in a bunch of different ways or killing them in a bunch of different ways.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:54.340)

Brother soul at a chance.

Unknown Speaker (02:13:55.300)

You'll be more like, oh, life is precious on account of it ends.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:00.340)

Well, see, but that life is precious thing is what makes me feel like this might be a

Unknown Speaker (02:14:06.180)

crypto conversation about abortion and reproductive rights.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:09.300)

I would say so.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:09.859)

But I don't, they never make that surface.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:12.659)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:13.460)

They never bring it to the forefront, but it feels like maybe that's kind of what they're

Unknown Speaker (02:14:18.260)

saying with this acid test for.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:20.579)

Well, I mean, ultimately, the problem with the soul is that when does it go in there?

Unknown Speaker (02:14:25.539)

Because when you're talking about abortion, you're talking about the soul.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:28.420)

When does the soul enter the body or whatever it is?

Unknown Speaker (02:14:31.060)

Right around.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:32.020)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:32.659)

And then once you try and scientifically answer that question, you sound like a fucking moron.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:37.699)

It's the third trimester.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:39.300)

What?

Unknown Speaker (02:14:39.699)

Yeah, but see, that's why you make noises.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:41.460)

God puts the soul in the third trimester.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:44.500)

Why?

Unknown Speaker (02:14:44.659)

It's around the, you know, that's about when the soul comes around.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:47.300)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (02:14:47.619)

So when the sperm and the egg, what, why is the soul already been in there?

Unknown Speaker (02:14:53.300)

Do they, something special happened?

Unknown Speaker (02:14:55.140)

Do they put the soul in, if there is a soul, does it have mass?

Unknown Speaker (02:14:59.460)

If there's no soul, then why can't there be fucking demons inside of you?

Unknown Speaker (02:15:03.939)

If also there's a holy spirit.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:05.300)

Well, sometimes there's bad soul.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:07.699)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:08.020)

Well, that's fair.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:08.659)

And sometimes there's collective soul.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:13.140)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:13.699)

And then sometimes there's Aretha Franklin.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:15.300)

Mm hmm.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:15.859)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:16.260)

Yup.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:16.899)

You got to respect it.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:17.859)

Got to respect it.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:18.899)

So the other thing you got to respect is Cambridge educated people.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:23.939)

Well, what if they tell you that you have a soul?

Unknown Speaker (02:15:25.859)

Then you got to respect them.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:26.739)

I don't think I trust them at all.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:28.020)

I have an interview in my book with a PhD from Cambridge University in neuroscience

Unknown Speaker (02:15:33.060)

who says the evidence is so persuasive that yes, indeed, we do have a soul.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:38.899)

We do have a spirit.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:39.699)

Thank you.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:40.260)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:40.739)

Thank you neuroscientist from...

Unknown Speaker (02:15:42.420)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:44.420)

Thank you for confirming.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:46.260)

This interview that he does with the doctor is named, her name is Sharon Diericks and

Unknown Speaker (02:15:51.220)

she's the one who blew his mind about the smell of coffee.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:53.939)

That sounds right.

Unknown Speaker (02:15:54.739)

In the interview, he asks her if there's good evidence for a soul in an afterlife,

Unknown Speaker (02:15:58.340)

to which she replies, quote, there have been various studies conducted in the United States,

Unknown Speaker (02:16:02.340)

the Netherlands and elsewhere.

Unknown Speaker (02:16:03.779)

Of course, some stories could have been fabricated, but with others, there's very intriguing evidence.

Unknown Speaker (02:16:08.979)

Her answer is basically people are looking into this and there's people making shit up,

Unknown Speaker (02:16:12.899)

but some other stuff might be true.

Unknown Speaker (02:16:14.739)

That's not persuasive.

Unknown Speaker (02:16:15.859)

Who knows is another way of rephrasing that.

Unknown Speaker (02:16:18.100)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:16:18.500)

And she goes on to say, quote, I suspect we'll see more data as research continues,

Unknown Speaker (02:16:23.060)

but think about it this way.

Unknown Speaker (02:16:24.659)

All we really need is one documented case.

Unknown Speaker (02:16:27.859)

That statement says a lot because what it says most is that there are no documented

Unknown Speaker (02:16:32.020)

cases of souls or the afterlife.

Unknown Speaker (02:16:34.020)

The Cambridge neuroscientist is saying there's no evidence, but maybe one day.

Unknown Speaker (02:16:38.899)

For what it's worth, Diericks has a degree from Cambridge in brain imaging,

Unknown Speaker (02:16:43.059)

but she doesn't work for the school.

Unknown Speaker (02:16:44.899)

She's a lecturer for the Oxford Center for Christian Apologetics,

Unknown Speaker (02:16:48.260)

and almost all of her career has been writing religious books, like her most recent release,

Unknown Speaker (02:16:53.219)

Broken Planet, an exploration of how it's possible for God to exist when we have all

Unknown Speaker (02:16:57.379)

these natural disasters happening.

Unknown Speaker (02:16:59.059)

Oh my God.

Unknown Speaker (02:16:59.860)

Probably not climate change denial.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:02.340)

That is some good apologia, if you will.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:06.899)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:07.379)

So that's her thing.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:09.059)

This is all just Christian apologetics.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:12.020)

Yeah, this is nuts.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:14.180)

I mean, I get it.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:15.700)

It's really hard now.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:17.459)

It was a lot easier.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:18.579)

I feel like the scales have tipped, right?

Unknown Speaker (02:17:20.579)

Back in the day, you've got the church behind you.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:23.379)

If you say you don't believe in God, you get murdered, right?

Unknown Speaker (02:17:26.420)

So you're riding high, right?

Unknown Speaker (02:17:28.659)

Now people are like, well, answer these questions, and you can't because none of it's real.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:33.459)

So you get real mad at that, and now you've got a Cambridge neuroscientist saying that

Unknown Speaker (02:17:37.299)

it's okay for hurricanes and God to be the same.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:40.020)

Like, what are we doing?

Unknown Speaker (02:17:41.379)

Get back to basics.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:42.739)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:43.379)

Well, I think that they sold too many books, and people got a little too used to...

Unknown Speaker (02:17:52.020)

That'll happen.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:52.659)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:53.139)

You sell too many books.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:54.739)

So we've got near-death experiences.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:57.700)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:17:58.260)

And that's when someone dies, they have some crazy times, and then they come back to their

Unknown Speaker (02:18:03.139)

body and they're like, whoa.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:04.260)

Ah, I saw the light.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:05.379)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:05.700)

But there's another thing that happens.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:06.819)

Oh, yeah?

Unknown Speaker (02:18:07.219)

And that's close to death visions.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:10.500)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:10.979)

And that's people who die, but before they die, they see a tunnel or something.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:16.100)

So nigh-death experiences, if you will.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:18.739)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:18.979)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:19.459)

And Tucker, for some reason, thinks that everybody shouldn't be on drugs when they're dying

Unknown Speaker (02:18:27.700)

because they need to have these visions.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:29.379)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:30.260)

If you have one of these experiences before you die, you think they're going to think

Unknown Speaker (02:18:33.540)

I've got dementia.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:35.540)

They're going to think I'm nuts.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:36.899)

They're going to think...

Unknown Speaker (02:18:38.819)

So a lot of people don't like to talk about it.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:40.979)

So there's a researcher.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:42.739)

He went to a huge hospice facility in New York State, and they went to all the dying

Unknown Speaker (02:18:47.459)

people, and they said, please, as a favor, if you have a vision, a dream unlike any you've

Unknown Speaker (02:18:53.700)

ever had, tell us.

Unknown Speaker (02:18:56.899)

Would you tell us?

Unknown Speaker (02:18:58.739)

And so 88% of those dying people had a pre-death vision that they reported on before they died.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:08.420)

Eighty-eight percent.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:09.459)

I think the other 12% probably had one, but they died before they were able to say anything.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:13.620)

Or they were so high on morphine, they couldn't talk.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:15.780)

That's true.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:16.579)

People get drugged up.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:17.620)

That's true.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:18.260)

So there's that.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:18.979)

I mean, obviously, you don't want people to suffer.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:21.299)

You want to alleviate suffering and alleviate pain.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:23.860)

I'm totally for that.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:24.979)

I want to be clear about it.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:26.579)

But there's also this custom which has grown to be ubiquity.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:29.780)

Now it's just everybody who dies gets from the hospice nurses.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:36.899)

They kill you with morphine.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:37.860)

I mean, no one wants to say that out loud, but I've seen it.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:40.420)

They kill you with morphine.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:42.180)

And okay, first, we should just be honest about what's happening always.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:47.379)

But second, we should be clear about the cost.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:50.500)

So if people, if everybody on the way out is getting visions of some kind,

Unknown Speaker (02:19:56.020)

maybe there's a purpose to those visions.

Unknown Speaker (02:19:58.100)

Maybe we shouldn't short circuit that.

Unknown Speaker (02:20:01.620)

Maybe?

Unknown Speaker (02:20:02.819)

I hate these people.

Unknown Speaker (02:20:04.180)

So even if we just assume that everything that Tucker is saying isn't insane,

Unknown Speaker (02:20:07.459)

then 88% of people who report having visions near death,

Unknown Speaker (02:20:12.180)

that includes a lot of people on morphine.

Unknown Speaker (02:20:15.299)

He's just making up a rule that morphine blocks God's vision

Unknown Speaker (02:20:18.579)

so he can complain about end of life care in a way that seems designed

Unknown Speaker (02:20:22.659)

around wanting old people to suffer for their own good.

Unknown Speaker (02:20:26.420)

This was a study that was put out by the Palliative Care Institute.

Unknown Speaker (02:20:29.620)

And as far as I can tell, it's not full of shit.

Unknown Speaker (02:20:31.780)

But it also really doesn't seem to tell much.

Unknown Speaker (02:20:34.260)

Basically, 88% of patients in end of life care reported having visions,

Unknown Speaker (02:20:38.420)

but the range of what that means was wide.

Unknown Speaker (02:20:42.340)

Some of them were comforting dreams.

Unknown Speaker (02:20:44.340)

Some were horrible and disturbing.

Unknown Speaker (02:20:47.139)

And the report says, quote, religious content was minimal.

Unknown Speaker (02:20:51.299)

The study specifically excluded people who had dementia.

Unknown Speaker (02:20:53.940)

So all of those people, they were aware they were in hospice care

Unknown Speaker (02:20:57.620)

and that death was probably pretty close.

Unknown Speaker (02:21:00.020)

It stands to reason that in that community,

Unknown Speaker (02:21:02.100)

you'd see a higher incidence of people subconsciously trying to make peace

Unknown Speaker (02:21:05.379)

with the process of dying.

Unknown Speaker (02:21:06.819)

And having these dreams seems like exactly what you would expect.

Unknown Speaker (02:21:10.899)

It's interesting, and it's good to have data like this

Unknown Speaker (02:21:13.299)

to help normalize the grieving process and make death easier for everyone.

Unknown Speaker (02:21:17.379)

But it doesn't say anything about an afterlife.

Unknown Speaker (02:21:20.420)

Also, if you're in the hospital, you can refuse any medication they give you.

Unknown Speaker (02:21:24.979)

If you're dying and you don't want morphine,

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doctors aren't going to force it on you.

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But a lot of people at that point are in so much pain.

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I would so much rather live in a world where that's an option

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than one where no one's given painkillers in the last months of their life,

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because Tucker thinks that they should have pain visions.

Unknown Speaker (02:21:44.180)

This is stupid.

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He is a asshole.

Unknown Speaker (02:21:48.739)

It's not even just dumb. That's mean.

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Yeah.

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One of the problems with these people specifically

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is that they're competing in this space

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where it feels like to them it makes sense, as part of their argument,

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that it would be like, isn't 88% enough to convince you?

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It's more than even 60%.

Unknown Speaker (02:22:13.379)

It's more than 70%.

Unknown Speaker (02:22:14.739)

That's a solid B plus, right?

Unknown Speaker (02:22:17.139)

But we're in the world of God.

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We're in the world of is or is not.

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It's 100% or it is zero.

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There's no middle ground.

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Let me be even-

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It's God!

Unknown Speaker (02:22:26.979)

Well, but they got around that by saying that 12% died before they could report the...

Unknown Speaker (02:22:31.379)

They come up with excuses for why it is 100%.

Unknown Speaker (02:22:33.379)

Right. But God doesn't need excuses.

Unknown Speaker (02:22:36.260)

He's God!

Unknown Speaker (02:22:37.059)

Let me do you one better.

Unknown Speaker (02:22:38.739)

Even if that study came back and found 100% of these people had dreams

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that they thought were unique and amazing,

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I still don't think that's proof of an afterlife.

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No!

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I think these people are probably preoccupied with and dealing with death.

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They're dying in the hospital.

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If 100% of them reported getting an orientation dream for how to behave following the end of this

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life, I would go, fuck, that is very specific.

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Yes.

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I don't even know how you would go about finding that out.

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Ridiculous.

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But if there was something that was a little bit more like that,

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they went, had this dream and came back with a uniform.

Unknown Speaker (02:23:21.139)

Yeah, absolutely.

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Then, guys, we gotta talk about this.

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This is the thing.

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This is the thing.

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What are you gonna do?

Unknown Speaker (02:23:27.540)

But as it is, I think that if you go to camp, you probably have last day of camp dreams.

Unknown Speaker (02:23:34.020)

Yeah.

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Because you're gonna go home from camp.

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This is something that happens.

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People...

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Fucking idiots.

Unknown Speaker (02:23:41.299)

Yep.

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Anyway, let these old people have their trunks.

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Just fucking get them high and go to bed.

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To Jordan.

Unknown Speaker (02:23:47.219)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:23:47.860)

What do you think about ghosts?

Unknown Speaker (02:23:50.260)

You can't have ghosts.

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If you're gonna go hard religion, you can't have ghosts.

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Ghosts have to be angels and demons because otherwise,

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ghosts are souls that God is specifically leaving on Earth for some reason.

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Or they're on the run or something like that.

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They're actively avoiding God's wrath or favor.

Unknown Speaker (02:24:12.180)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:24:12.739)

So I realize that I've set up all these questions so poorly,

Unknown Speaker (02:24:16.100)

and I should be asking you to try and predict what Lee thinks.

Unknown Speaker (02:24:19.219)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (02:24:20.739)

You have a take and I think it's a solid take.

Unknown Speaker (02:24:22.899)

Yeah.

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Lee's all for ghosts.

Unknown Speaker (02:24:25.139)

Well, I think that their feeling on it is largely, no one likes ghosts.

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The technical definition of a ghost is someone who dies,

Unknown Speaker (02:24:34.020)

but refuses to go into the afterlife.

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Their spirit refuses to go into the next life.

Unknown Speaker (02:24:39.219)

I don't see that in the Bible.

Unknown Speaker (02:24:41.860)

So I don't think that ghosts per se are from God.

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I think most likely an apparition that we interpret as being ghosts is most like a demonic apparition.

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I think people feel that.

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I think so.

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Ghosts have a bad rep.

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Yes.

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No one is summoning ghosts.

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It's not like Casper who's gonna bring you some flowers.

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Generally people are anti-ghost.

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Yes.

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Ghosts suck.

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Ghosts are bullshit, brah.

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They bring a party down.

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We are not fans of ghosts.

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Here's what I like about this.

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Let's leave the fact of their existence aside.

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They suck.

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Bunch of douchebags.

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No one's ever laughed with a ghost.

Unknown Speaker (02:25:29.620)

No.

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Except for the times that they have.

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But ghosts have laughed at you.

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That's definitely true.

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You're never laughing with a ghost.

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No one's like...

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Why not?

Unknown Speaker (02:25:39.299)

Slimer maybe.

Unknown Speaker (02:25:40.420)

Oh, there's definitely Slimer.

Unknown Speaker (02:25:42.340)

Oh boy.

Unknown Speaker (02:25:43.940)

In Ghostbusters, there's plenty of very funny ghosts.

Unknown Speaker (02:25:47.860)

I think that he's saying that they're a subset of demons.

Unknown Speaker (02:25:52.340)

Right?

Unknown Speaker (02:25:52.579)

I mean, that's kind of where he's coming down.

Unknown Speaker (02:25:55.299)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:25:55.860)

No, I mean, I appreciate that.

Unknown Speaker (02:25:57.700)

I think that's the correct choice.

Unknown Speaker (02:25:59.219)

You can't have ghosts because that would suggest people are

Unknown Speaker (02:26:01.459)

capable of saying fuck off to God, which you can't have.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:04.420)

It has narrative cleanness.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:05.940)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:06.579)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:06.979)

Now let me ask you about psychics.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:08.819)

Oh, absolutely not.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:11.059)

So Lee doesn't like psychics.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:13.700)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:14.180)

We know that Tucker should.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:16.020)

Tucker is a psychic.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:17.299)

Well, he's not.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:18.020)

He likes Alex.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:18.899)

Yes, exactly.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:19.379)

He's a psychic.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:20.100)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:20.819)

So it's kind of surprising that they both fucking hate psychics.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:23.940)

Really?

Unknown Speaker (02:26:24.420)

You pro psychic.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:25.379)

I'm anti psychic.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:26.340)

Yeah, I am too.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:27.540)

Why are you anti psychic?

Unknown Speaker (02:26:29.299)

Because the Bible says do not consult mediums.

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That's not psychic.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:33.540)

That's not clear.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:34.979)

Multiple places in scripture do not do it.

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Oh, it well, among the ancient Hebrews, that was a death penalty offense.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:42.340)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:42.979)

It was.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:43.620)

Oh man, this is bad news for Alex.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:45.299)

I'm confused.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:46.579)

About what?

Unknown Speaker (02:26:47.379)

We're okay.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:48.579)

See, now I thought he was going to go with psychics are not real.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:51.780)

Oh, I was a fool.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:53.379)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:26:53.780)

Because he's going with psychics are bad.

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They're very real and bad because their powers are dangerous.

Unknown Speaker (02:27:01.379)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:27:01.700)

When Tucker says that it was a death penalty offense, he explains that it's like because

Unknown Speaker (02:27:07.379)

it was so dangerous that these people could see the future.

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It was even if we wanted to use their knowledge, we had to destroy it.

Unknown Speaker (02:27:15.860)

Otherwise it would have corrupted us.

Unknown Speaker (02:27:17.620)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:27:18.260)

And I guess I think that's what the minority report is about.

Unknown Speaker (02:27:21.379)

I don't see how he likes Alex.

Unknown Speaker (02:27:25.620)

This is Alex's whole thing.

Unknown Speaker (02:27:27.059)

I know.

Unknown Speaker (02:27:27.780)

It's almost like he makes it all up as he goes along and this is complete bullshit.

Unknown Speaker (02:27:31.940)

Almost.

Unknown Speaker (02:27:33.139)

But along the way, as they make up stuff, Lee has what I would describe as a very interesting

Unknown Speaker (02:27:40.420)

view on ghosts.

Unknown Speaker (02:27:41.940)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (02:27:42.260)

We get back to the idea of people who've been visited by their dead relatives.

Unknown Speaker (02:27:46.020)

All right.

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And I think that this is so accidentally revealing.

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Here's my concern.

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So many times the people have contact with these dead people.

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These are people that lived ungodly lives.

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And yet they say, everything's fine.

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I'm fine.

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Everything's good.

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Just take care of the family.

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Tell everybody I love them.

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I'm good.

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Don't worry about me.

Unknown Speaker (02:28:07.780)

That's the general message people get.

Unknown Speaker (02:28:09.780)

Well, what does that say to someone who is thinking about what do I need to do to live

Unknown Speaker (02:28:15.700)

a life that will bring me to heaven and to God?

Unknown Speaker (02:28:18.420)

Well, Uncle Tom came and told me he's fine.

Unknown Speaker (02:28:20.899)

He didn't.

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He was a, he was a adulterer and he never came to faith in Jesus.

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He's a bad guy.

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And yet he says he's fine in the afterlife.

Unknown Speaker (02:28:31.059)

Wouldn't that be something that a demon might want to imitate to send a false message?

Unknown Speaker (02:28:37.059)

I think maybe.

Unknown Speaker (02:28:38.739)

This is totally cool and empirical.

Unknown Speaker (02:28:41.860)

Maybe demons are trying to trick you by impersonating your dead loved ones.

Unknown Speaker (02:28:45.780)

This is a guy who applies rigor and critical thought to his beliefs and doesn't just shoot

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off, you know, from the hip.

Unknown Speaker (02:28:52.340)

This is the stupidest shit, but Lee accidentally revealed something about his psychology in

Unknown Speaker (02:28:57.299)

that clip that I think is pretty damning.

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Pardon the pun.

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He's saying that a lot of these returning relatives were ungodly people and they're

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coming back and saying that it's all good.

Unknown Speaker (02:29:06.340)

You don't have to be godly to have peace after death.

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This is a crafty trick that demons are playing on you to get you to not be godly.

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Buried in that statement is the understood but unspoken premise that no one wants to

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be religious.

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It kind of sucks.

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And if a ghost came back and told you that you didn't have to follow all these weird

Unknown Speaker (02:29:26.899)

rules and you'd still be fine after you died, there's no reason why someone like Lee

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would continue doing it.

Unknown Speaker (02:29:32.899)

This is either Lee's perspective of himself or how he views the general religious people

Unknown Speaker (02:29:39.139)

who are his audience.

Unknown Speaker (02:29:40.340)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:29:41.319)

The reason this is a problem for Lee is that God is love.

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And even if a deadbeat relative came back as a ghost and told you that you didn't need

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to worship God, you should want to anyway, because it's good.

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It's what powers you.

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It's what gives you connection to others and the world.

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And no dime store blinky pinky inky or Clyde is going to change that shit.

Unknown Speaker (02:30:02.120)

It's unfortunately a very revealing thing for Lee to express here, because it's kind

Unknown Speaker (02:30:08.440)

of the underpinning of this whole school of Christian apologetics.

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This school of Christianity is built on arguing why people should be okay with being religious,

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because they know that their version of Christianity sucks and a lot of their audience are just

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a couple bad days away from losing faith.

Unknown Speaker (02:30:24.360)

And then who's going to buy these dumb books about demons?

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The struggle for me here is that sincerely, I don't hate Christians and I don't hate

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religious people, but this shit makes the position hard to defend.

Unknown Speaker (02:30:36.760)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (02:30:37.319)

This stuff sucks.

Unknown Speaker (02:30:40.120)

This dude is fucking garbage and...

Unknown Speaker (02:30:43.879)

I mean, but that's...

Unknown Speaker (02:30:44.920)

Just showing it all over.

Unknown Speaker (02:30:46.120)

That's the problem with the book, right?

Unknown Speaker (02:30:49.479)

Is that it doesn't mean the same thing to everybody, right?

Unknown Speaker (02:30:54.760)

So if you put your same name under something that you believe completely different things

Unknown Speaker (02:30:59.319)

about, then people are going to use that to exploit the differences.

Unknown Speaker (02:31:04.360)

They're going to use that.

Unknown Speaker (02:31:05.559)

That's true.

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The church has gone through tons of different characters over the span of its existence

Unknown Speaker (02:31:13.239)

and the one that is becoming ascendant and most prominent now sucks.

Unknown Speaker (02:31:18.520)

And it's like this.

Unknown Speaker (02:31:21.079)

And it's mostly a commercial enterprise.

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Them being like, oh, can you believe the concept, the idea that people wouldn't have free will?

Unknown Speaker (02:31:29.639)

That was what you guys believed for a thousand years.

Unknown Speaker (02:31:33.000)

What are you talking about?

Unknown Speaker (02:31:34.360)

And you still kind of do.

Unknown Speaker (02:31:35.559)

Exactly.

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So I find this guy to be like, like I said, I think he seems pleasant in a lot of ways,

Unknown Speaker (02:31:44.600)

but also on a level, I think he's worse than Tucker.

Unknown Speaker (02:31:48.360)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:31:48.920)

I think Tucker sucks a whole lot.

Unknown Speaker (02:31:51.399)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:31:52.760)

But I think that...

Unknown Speaker (02:31:55.319)

He's just...

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Whenever I was with these people, right?

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When I was growing up in the faith, as is the phrase, right?

Unknown Speaker (02:32:07.319)

These were the type of people that fucking drove me insane because it was so obvious

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how stupid and awful this stuff is.

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And it was so obvious that the other people that I was with in the church were fine.

Unknown Speaker (02:32:21.319)

Totally fine.

Unknown Speaker (02:32:22.520)

They were fine people, right?

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They were just everybody.

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But whenever they hear this in that same intonation and they're like, and they prayed all night,

Unknown Speaker (02:32:31.159)

you can see their hearts bubble up with the truth.

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There's something beautiful out there.

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It's the genre we like.

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It's something that we like this.

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We like hearing this.

Unknown Speaker (02:32:44.440)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:32:45.000)

And it's like, these are perfectly fine people and you are fucking with them.

Unknown Speaker (02:32:50.040)

And you are fucked up for doing it.

Unknown Speaker (02:32:51.959)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:32:52.520)

And I think a lot of the people who, especially, I think, maybe it's my experience because I was

Unknown Speaker (02:32:59.719)

in a lot of youth groups and stuff, but I think evangelical Christianity is a particular

Unknown Speaker (02:33:07.559)

thing where it's targeting youth.

Unknown Speaker (02:33:10.280)

Oh, it's ripe for abuse.

Unknown Speaker (02:33:11.559)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:33:11.879)

But I don't even mean abusing youth.

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I mean trying to look cool to youth.

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And someone like Lee Strobel and the Christian apologetics, there is this tendency to be

Unknown Speaker (02:33:23.239)

like, hey, people might think you're a dork because you believe in God, but here's why

Unknown Speaker (02:33:28.360)

you should, why God is cool.

Unknown Speaker (02:33:30.840)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:33:31.159)

You know, like that's, God's not dead.

Unknown Speaker (02:33:33.799)

That kind of vein of Christianity, that's meant to appeal to people who don't know that

Unknown Speaker (02:33:41.479)

you're fucking with them.

Unknown Speaker (02:33:42.440)

I mean, here's the one thing that always got me.

Unknown Speaker (02:33:47.399)

My dad, and I'm putting his business on the streets here, but he did the million dollar

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bills thing for a while.

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You know, you tip a million dollar bill with your like four bucks and they'd be like,

Unknown Speaker (02:34:01.879)

oh, have you heard about Jesus?

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He's worth a million dollars.

Unknown Speaker (02:34:05.239)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:34:05.399)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:34:05.879)

And it is very much like they don't understand it, but if you needed to do that, there is

Unknown Speaker (02:34:13.719)

no God.

Unknown Speaker (02:34:15.000)

If God can't handle his own business, if God needs you to trick people with poorly worded

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bills, you fucked up.

Unknown Speaker (02:34:22.760)

And odds are like the only people you're targeting with that are going to be people who are in

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a bad place.

Unknown Speaker (02:34:31.000)

In a...

Unknown Speaker (02:34:31.559)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:34:32.680)

It's going to be a product of, oh shit.

Unknown Speaker (02:34:36.760)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:34:37.239)

There's going to be something unhealthy that leads them to do it.

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It's one of those like do the means justify the ends kind of thing where it's actually

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the means and the ends are the same.

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If you are deceiving people to your God, your God is a deceiver.

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It's the end.

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And I think that that's a part of why I wanted to do this episode and why this stuck out

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to me was that I feel like that distinction is really important.

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And I don't think that we need to, or the impulse to be like super anti-religion is

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healthy, but I get it.

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I understand when people like this are ascendant and Tucker is doing an interview like this

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bullshit.

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Like I get why people would be like, fuck this, fuck Christianity and all that.

Unknown Speaker (02:35:26.520)

I don't agree with that, but I get it.

Unknown Speaker (02:35:29.000)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (02:35:29.399)

How can you not?

Unknown Speaker (02:35:30.520)

I mean, if this is your face, then...

Unknown Speaker (02:35:33.159)

How about we put it this way?

Unknown Speaker (02:35:35.399)

I understand where people are coming from, but I look at it as more like Dan Snyder owned

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the Washington commanders now, I think is what they're called.

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When they used to be called what they used to be called.

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And he's a gigantic piece of shit.

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Everybody hates this fucking guy.

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The name is awful.

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The way he behaves is awful.

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The fans need to rise up and get rid of the leadership because the Washington football

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team is fine, right?

Unknown Speaker (02:36:02.280)

The football team just plays football, man.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:04.600)

You're a fan of the football team.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:05.959)

Don't let the owner like this fucker tell you what to do.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:09.959)

Yeah.

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There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the team or the sport.

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There's just something wrong with the branding.

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And it's a problem that won't go away on its own.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:21.639)

It won't go away on its own.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:23.000)

And I think it requires people who care and people who have good intention as opposed

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to wanting to destroy.

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No, take your Christianity back.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:32.680)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:32.920)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:33.719)

So there's miracles out there.

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I doubt it.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:36.520)

Not what?

Unknown Speaker (02:36:37.159)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:37.959)

Do you know what a miracle is?

Unknown Speaker (02:36:40.440)

Yes, something that cannot happen.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:42.360)

Well, that's a good definition, but Lee's got a better one.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:45.799)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:46.600)

Last question.

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Miracles.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:48.680)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:36:50.360)

What is a miracle?

Unknown Speaker (02:36:51.639)

A miracle is an event brought about by the power of God that is a temporary exception

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to the ordinary course of nature for the purpose of showing that God has acted in history.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:02.680)

So in other words, a lot of people get this.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:04.600)

Nice definition.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:05.639)

Thank you.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:06.200)

It's from Robert Pertill, who was a philosopher.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:09.079)

I thought that was the best definition I'd heard.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:11.159)

That's a great definition of miracles.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:13.159)

Is it?

Unknown Speaker (02:37:13.639)

I'm going to offer my own.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:14.680)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:15.239)

Crows, ghosts, the midnight coast, the wonders of the world, Mr.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:18.760)

Reeves, the most just open up your mind.

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And there ain't no way to ignore the miracles of every day.

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It's a dark carnival.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:25.879)

Yes, it is.

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That's what we're out here for.

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Whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:30.200)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:30.840)

That's a better definition of miracles.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:32.920)

A lot of people, you know, they make fun of the magnets.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:35.159)

What have you.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:35.639)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:36.280)

A lot of better lines.

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Listen, the magnets are rough.

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We all accept that.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:40.680)

Because I was so mad at this dude and he's talking about miracles.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:44.120)

I ended up watching that music video and then watching a bunch of ICP music videos.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:47.639)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:48.120)

And I had a fucking depressing realization.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:51.559)

What?

Unknown Speaker (02:37:52.120)

You remember that song Juggalo Island?

Unknown Speaker (02:37:54.200)

No.

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We can let our nuts hang in the water.

Unknown Speaker (02:37:58.760)

No, I don't.

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On Juggalo Island.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:00.440)

Nope.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:01.719)

It was about Juggalo Island.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:03.159)

Like, what if they had an island?

Unknown Speaker (02:38:04.360)

Naturally.

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They could all hang out together.

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I've already leapt to the end.

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I will tell you what, in a very short snippet, I have leapt to the conclusion.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:10.920)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:11.559)

Quite simple premise.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:13.159)

Yep.

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That came out 15 years ago.

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That's...

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That made me so sad.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:17.159)

Ooh, man.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:18.600)

Because it felt late.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:19.879)

It felt like late ICP.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:23.239)

Nope.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:24.280)

Nope.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:24.680)

Time flies as it goes.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:27.719)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:28.280)

So we have one last clip here.

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And it's talking...

Unknown Speaker (02:38:31.959)

There's a point that Lee makes a couple of times, and I think it's a valid point.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:36.040)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:36.600)

And that is that a lot of this stuff, like demons, angels, all this bullshit,

Unknown Speaker (02:38:41.399)

a lot of normal mainstream Christians don't want to get involved with it because they know it's crazy.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:48.360)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:48.760)

And they don't want to be treated like people who are running around hunting demons.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:53.000)

Yes, exactly.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:54.360)

And Tucker's like, then stop being Christians.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:57.799)

I accept...

Unknown Speaker (02:38:58.360)

I think that's a fair argument.

Unknown Speaker (02:38:59.799)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:39:00.440)

That's a fair argument.

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I think we shy away because we want to be accepted as normal.

Unknown Speaker (02:39:08.680)

Why would you get out of bed on Sunday to sit in a church where they're pretending that

Unknown Speaker (02:39:17.159)

nothing they say is true?

Unknown Speaker (02:39:19.719)

It's a good point.

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If it's not supernatural, why are you bothering?

Unknown Speaker (02:39:24.120)

It is a good point.

Unknown Speaker (02:39:24.840)

You got to believe in angels.

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You got to believe in demons.

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You got to believe in Satan.

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You got to believe in heaven.

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You got to believe in hell.

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Because if you believe in Jesus, he taught on all those things.

Unknown Speaker (02:39:32.360)

Ooh.

Unknown Speaker (02:39:32.920)

So my goodness, how could you not?

Unknown Speaker (02:39:35.000)

I agree with you.

Unknown Speaker (02:39:35.799)

How could you not?

Unknown Speaker (02:39:36.920)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:39:37.239)

I mean, go on, move on to something else.

Unknown Speaker (02:39:39.319)

Go play tennis or something.

Unknown Speaker (02:39:41.159)

Go play tennis!

Unknown Speaker (02:39:42.440)

That's literally what I did.

Unknown Speaker (02:39:43.719)

You love tennis.

Unknown Speaker (02:39:45.399)

So I think that that clip, I think that's a really good summation of this, because

Unknown Speaker (02:39:52.680)

it is expressing a belief that you also hold in many ways about religion.

Unknown Speaker (02:39:58.280)

If you're looking at the text, why are you doing something other than what the book says?

Unknown Speaker (02:40:03.879)

It's you are not doing the thing anymore.

Unknown Speaker (02:40:07.079)

You're doing something else.

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Be your own thing.

Unknown Speaker (02:40:09.479)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:40:10.280)

And in some ways, denominations of Christianity have achieved that goal,

Unknown Speaker (02:40:14.840)

but you still use the same text.

Unknown Speaker (02:40:17.079)

Whatever.

Unknown Speaker (02:40:18.200)

The reason that this is a good parting is that this is Tucker, and to a more jovial

Unknown Speaker (02:40:27.799)

extent, Lee, expressing, we are not going to tolerate other Christianity within our Christianity.

Unknown Speaker (02:40:34.680)

Yep.

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Whereas in the past, there was maybe a more tolerant view in the mainstream.

Unknown Speaker (02:40:43.319)

Of course.

Unknown Speaker (02:40:43.559)

The mainstream is going to be taken over by this.

Unknown Speaker (02:40:46.360)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:40:46.840)

And they're going to force out more tolerant Christian voices, and that's bad for the brand.

Unknown Speaker (02:40:54.760)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:40:55.319)

I mean, for the longest time, they kind of tolerated these people, because they were

Unknown Speaker (02:41:04.360)

like a remnant to the more magical times, whenever men of faith walked the earth and

Unknown Speaker (02:41:09.879)

moved mountains and all that kind of stuff.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:12.200)

But now, if you let them in and give them power, they're going to take over, and they're

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not going to tolerate you.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:19.959)

It only goes one way.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:22.280)

I don't know, outside of this being kind of...

Unknown Speaker (02:41:26.680)

I mean, he's doing an interview on Tucker's show, but I don't know how much this is wildly

Unknown Speaker (02:41:31.079)

out of sync with what Lee Strobel was doing 10 years ago.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:36.040)

It's what I was listening to when I was a kid.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:37.719)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:38.040)

It's Dr. James Dobson shit.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:39.559)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:39.879)

But it was confined to church areas.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:43.879)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:44.760)

These books would just be on Christian bookstores.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:48.440)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:48.920)

And you wouldn't...

Unknown Speaker (02:41:50.280)

You wouldn't...

Unknown Speaker (02:41:51.959)

I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:52.520)

You wouldn't see demon interviews on Tucker.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:55.000)

People would read them and they would go, hmm, that's interesting.

Unknown Speaker (02:41:58.280)

And they would take little things that would be basically self-help.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:01.879)

It would be like, oh yeah, I should clean more.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:04.520)

That's what they would get out of it.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:05.959)

There would be the side excitement of being like, you should clean more food, because

Unknown Speaker (02:42:09.559)

God, that makes it more exciting.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:11.959)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:12.360)

This is not good.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:13.479)

No, it's broken loose.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:16.200)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:17.659)

It's gotten free.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:18.940)

And we are all going to be demons soon.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:21.100)

Yes, we are.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:22.299)

In their definitions.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:23.420)

That's what demons are for.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:24.860)

But you know what?

Unknown Speaker (02:42:27.260)

Before that point comes...

Unknown Speaker (02:42:28.540)

Before the demon feast?

Unknown Speaker (02:42:29.899)

I'm going to get to work on MacGyver.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:32.620)

I'm going to watch some more MacGyver.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:33.979)

You'll have about 15 minutes at the end to solve everything.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:37.899)

Nice.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:38.299)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:39.500)

So yeah, I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (02:42:40.620)

Where are you at?

Unknown Speaker (02:42:41.899)

Um, you know, I would have...

Unknown Speaker (02:42:46.540)

I like it whenever, if you've got a mythology that involves massive battles between heaven

Unknown Speaker (02:42:55.659)

and hell, give me a little bit more than like, well, they don't have bodies.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:00.379)

What is that?

Unknown Speaker (02:43:00.940)

What are you talking about?

Unknown Speaker (02:43:03.100)

Then what did they do?

Unknown Speaker (02:43:05.739)

They didn't marry.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:07.020)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:07.420)

But I mean, so essentially what happened then is if you've already admitted that they have

Unknown Speaker (02:43:12.620)

no bodies, no corporeal form, no aspect other than some sort of will...

Unknown Speaker (02:43:16.860)

We learn later they don't actually have wings, or at least not all of them.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:19.979)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:20.299)

Right, right, right.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:20.860)

So then you're telling me also that there was a great moment where these angels were

Unknown Speaker (02:43:25.260)

fired out of heaven, right?

Unknown Speaker (02:43:27.500)

Which also doesn't have a spot.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:29.180)

No.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:29.500)

Or place.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:29.979)

Nope.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:30.540)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:31.040)

So where did they go?

Unknown Speaker (02:43:32.780)

How did...

Unknown Speaker (02:43:33.579)

Who forced them out?

Unknown Speaker (02:43:34.540)

How did they get...

Unknown Speaker (02:43:35.420)

Did God kick them out individually?

Unknown Speaker (02:43:37.739)

Did he send them out with a bus?

Unknown Speaker (02:43:39.340)

They changed the keys.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:40.860)

Right, exactly.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:41.579)

Like, what are we talking about where you've created this mythology and then the coolest

Unknown Speaker (02:43:46.219)

parts are actually not possible to happen?

Unknown Speaker (02:43:48.379)

And why is it that the devil is fucking busy as hell and all the demons seem to be able

Unknown Speaker (02:43:54.139)

to do is trick you into thinking they know stuff?

Unknown Speaker (02:43:56.700)

It is so great.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:58.860)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:59.180)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (02:43:59.979)

Anyway, we'll get back to maybe something a little more normal next time, but I want

Unknown Speaker (02:44:04.139)

to take a little wacky break.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:05.420)

Yay!

Unknown Speaker (02:44:05.819)

Duck demons.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:06.700)

I loved it.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:07.260)

Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:08.459)

So we'll be back, but until then, we have a website.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:10.620)

Ooh, it's knowledgefight.com.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:12.299)

Yep, we'll be back.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:13.500)

But until then, I'm Leo.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:15.100)

I'm Leo.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:15.579)

I'm DZXFark.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:16.459)

I am the mysterious professor.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:18.379)

Woo!

Unknown Speaker (02:44:18.700)

Yeah!

Unknown Speaker (02:44:19.180)

Woo!

Unknown Speaker (02:44:19.819)

Yeah!

Unknown Speaker (02:44:20.379)

Woo!

Unknown Speaker (02:44:21.180)

And now here comes the sex robot.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:23.420)

Andy in Kansas, you're on the air.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:24.780)

Thanks for holding.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:27.340)

Hello, Alex.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:28.059)

I'm a first time caller.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:28.940)

I'm a huge fan.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:29.819)

I love your work.

Unknown Speaker (02:44:30.620)

I love you.