Transcript/1005: Formulaic Objections Part 17

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Red alert. Red alert. Red alert. Red alert. Red alert. Red alert. Red alert.

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Red alert.

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KnowledgeFi-

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bleh (retches) . Dan and Jordan, I am sweating.

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Knowledgefight.com. It's time to pray.

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I

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have great respect for Knowledge Fight.

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Knowledge Fight. I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys,

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saying we are the bad guys. Knowledge Fight. Dan and Jordan. Knowledge

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Fight. Red alert. Red alert. Red alert. I need, I need money.

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Bleh.

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Red alert. Red alert. Red alert. Andy in Kansas.

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Andy in K- Andy in. Stop it. Andy in Kan- Andy in Kansas. And, and, and. It's time to pray.

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Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks for calling in.

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Hello, Alex. I'm a first-time caller. I'm a huge fan. I love your work.

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Knowledge Fight.

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KnowledgeFight.com. Bleh (retches) . I love you. Hey,

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everybody. Welcome back to Knowledge Fight. I'm Dan.

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I'm Jordan.

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We're a couple of dudes who like to sit around

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and worship at the altar of Selene and talk a little bit about Alex Jones.

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Oh, indeed we are, Dan.

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Uh, Jordan.

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Dan.

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Jordan.

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Quick question for you.

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'Sup?

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What's your bright spot today, buddy?

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Uh, why don't you go first?

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Uh, my bright spot is, uh, uh, actually The Penguin.

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Okay, yeah, I've heard it's good.

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Uh, just finished.

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Yeah.

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Fantastic. Very good.

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Oh, the season, season's ready for me to binge?

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Yep, yep.

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Okay.

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You can, you can nail it out. That's a great airplane, uh, fuckin'-

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All right.

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... yeah, that's the way to do it.

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Eh, maybe.

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Um, uh, so yeah, so it's great. They did a Billy Bathgate-

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Okay.

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... uh, which is awesome. Uh, I like the series.

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That's, that's the, uh, uh, Clinton has a scandal about taking a tub?

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A little something like that. Uh, no, it's (laughs) ...

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(laughs)

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Um, no, it's a, it's a novel by, uh, Doctorow.

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Hmm.

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Uh, and it is

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one of my favorite... He's also one of my favorite authors. He's... One of my favorite novels. And he writes

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so good. He's just a good... Like, when he

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r- when you read his stuff, it feels like he's got both his knees on your chest.

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I hate to be-

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And he's, like, telling... It's, it's hot.

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I hate to-

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It's sexy.

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I hate to... In, in this specific ques- uh, uh, context-

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What?

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... I hate to be an editor, but-

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Sure.

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... he, he writes well?

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Oh, no, no, no, no. He writes good.

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He writes good.

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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Okay. All right.

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No, but that's what I'm-

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Just clarifying.

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... that's what I'm trying to express here, okay?

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Mm-hmm.

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Is, uh, he's also part of a, a, a theory that I worked out whenever I first started reading him

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and realized that it was, uh, undeniably sexy

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to have a, an author have both knees on your chest while he's telling you a story.

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Mm-hmm.

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Right, right? And then I realized that most people do not view it that way.

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Hm.

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Not how they read books. Do not have this synesthetic, like, "Is this actually about sex?"

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Mm-hmm.

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Kind of thing.

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Yeah, no, that's, uh, that, that... It's, uh, it's not universal.

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Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then if, if you view everything through that

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viewpoint, which is that all authors are repressed masturbators-

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Hmm.

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... then it all makes sense.

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Sure.

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Then you can enjoy all literature for how it's actually about, uh, boning.

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Mm-hmm.

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And that's the gre-... You know, like, uh, if you think about a

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Jane Austen novel, many people have a lot of different

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kind of viewpoints, but if you just think about it as one

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giant strip tease, and instead of clothes, it's, like,

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societal expectations that you're slowly taking off-

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Mm-hmm.

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... that's it. It's actually about fuckin'. It's all about... They're all about fuckin'.

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Are you telling me that Ahab wanted to fuck that whale?

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Absolutely.

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Okay. Interesting.

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Oh, man, absolutely.

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I'm gonna have to rethink literature.

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I, I genuinely (laughs) think most people should.

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Okay.

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How is, how is this actually about how smart people can't just say it's actually about fuckin' is a baseline

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literary critical theory that I think more people could apply.

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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I'll, I'll, uh, I'll, uh, I'll, uh, insert it.

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It's the way to do it.

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Wait. What did I say?

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Exactly.

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Shit.

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Ugh. What's your bright spot?

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Um, I was just thinking about, uh, you know, we're recording this in advance because I'm gonna be-

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Sure.

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... on vacation.

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Sure.

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And I was thinking about the, uh, the, the, uh, the where in the world is Robert Del Rio.

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(laughs)

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And I just started to think about Rockapella.

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You were thinking about Rockapella.

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I got, I got excited-

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Yeah.

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... for a second. I just... I, I don't know why. It's just funny that they existed.

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It, it, it really is.

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They were huge. (laughs)

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What's, what's funnier is to, like, see the Pentatonix now, like, the actual

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huge acapella groups-

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Mm-hmm.

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... and think, man, you guys would be nothing if it weren't for Rockapella.

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Yeah, Rockapella walked so you could run.

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Absolutely.

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He-

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You're trash.

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The issue, too, though, is that, like, I think

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now, I don't know, I don't... Maybe this is another thing that needs to be reassessed.

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Sure.

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But I feel like Pentatonix and those kinds of modern groups-

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Yeah.

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... have kind of a, a sensuality to them.

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Sure.

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Right? There's a boy band-ish kind of quality to it.

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Yeah, yeah, there's gotta be. You gotta give the people what they want.

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That did not exist with Rockapella.

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No. No, no, no.

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They were not, uh, sexual icons.

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Sexless.

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Yeah.

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Able

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nonthreatening.

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Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum.

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Yep. Yeah.

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I, I realized there was a, uh, there's a part of me that I have not

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dealt with, uh, or, or integrated into my full, uh, self-

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Mm-hmm.

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... as an adult that is, I think, there was a

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small part of my life where I thought I might end up the bass guy in an acapella group.

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All right.

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I think there was a short period of time where-

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I like that.

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... where that was, like, a viable outcome.

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I like the idea of you-

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Bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum.

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... in a barbershop quartet.

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Bum, bum, bum, bum.

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That sounds fun.

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(laughs)

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You'd look great in one of those hats.

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Sigh.

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(laughs)

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Anyway-

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Yeah.

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... today we have an episode to go over, Jordan.

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All right.

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We're gonna be doing another, uh, little depo-

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All right.

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... uh, episode. We're talking about another deposition

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in the case of the misidentification of the Allen, Texas-

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Right.

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... uh, mass shooter.

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Gotcha.

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Uh, and in this instance, we're talking about the corporate representative for Newsmax.

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Mm-hmm.

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The channel Newsmax had a number of programs that aired the wrong mugshot.

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Yeah.

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And, uh, so we get a corporate rep in there, but it's not an InfoWars corporate rep, so that's interesting.

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I'm g- No, I'm genuinely very excited to see what the idea... Is it possible

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to have a competent corporate rep is the question that I haven't really asked myself.

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Well, I'm not, I'm not sure that we've had any non-InfoWars corporate reps.

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That's what I'm saying.

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'Cause there's, like, the Rob dude, there's the Daria, and, uh, the

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woman whose name is escaping me right now.

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Brittany Paz.

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That's right. Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Um, and so I think those are the only examples we have. And, and

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Paz was as close to, like, an actual corporate representative of the three of them.

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Totally. Totally.

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But even she was, you know, she was still a little InfoWarsy.

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Oh, boy.

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There was, uh, still a fair amount of not, uh-

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Yeah.

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... answering questions.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Um, so we'll see how, uh, this is different and similar.

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Mm-hmm.

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Uh, but first, let's, uh, take a little moment to say hello to some new wonks.

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Ooh, that's a great idea.

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So first, Hannah, "I'm sorry. I like podcasts with loud men that shout a lot. It's definitely Jordan."

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"You've got the sexiest brain. Love, Joram." Uh,

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Joram is pronounced Jor as in Jordan and um, I nailed it. It is, uh-

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(laughs)

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(laughs) ... in a sentence pause. Uh, thank you so much. You are now a Policy Wonk.

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I'm a Policy Wonk.

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Thank you very much.

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I'm really excited that I got that-

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I, I was pretty excited that you nailed it, too, 'cause I was kinda expecting you to-

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I was very close to Joram.

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Yep.

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I think, I think there might be, like, some dust on my screen that looked like an accent mark.

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That you almost got at the ooh. Nice.

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I think it might've... I think, I think there's some dust on the screen that looked like an accent over the A.

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Saved by the dust.

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Nice.

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(laughs)

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Uh, next, friendly workplace middle

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finger, for Jonathan. Love, Kurt in Alabama. Thank you so much. You're now a Policy Wonk.

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I'm a Policy Wonk.

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Thank you very much.

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Thank you. And first off, you guys are amazing. Thank you for the hours and hours of quality

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entertainment. And also wanted to shout out my lovely girlfriend who converted me

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to the cult of Selene and the world of Policy Wonks. Thank you for

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being my bright spot every day. Thank you so much. You're now a Policy Wonk.

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I'm a Policy Wonk.

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Thank you very much.

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And we got a technocrat in the mic, Jordan.

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Ooh.

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Uh, so thank you so much to, hey, Lydia. Thank you for introducing me to Knowledge Fight. I consider

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you the coolest of kids and I hope you have a great birthday. Love, Asia, a

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slightly less cool kid. Thank you so much. You're now a technocrat.

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I'm a Policy Wonk.

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Four stars.

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... your mom and tell her you're brilliant.

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Someone, someone sodomized, sent me a bucket of poop.

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Daddy Sharp. (singing) Jar Jar Binks has a Caribbean Black accent.

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He's a loser little, little titty baby. I don't wanna hate Black people. I renounce Jesus Christ.

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Thank you so much. (laughs)

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Yes, thank you very much.

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So we start off this, uh, deposition, as we do, uh, as it,

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uh, just kind of has become, uh, tradition, with, with the asking of what kind of preparation you've done-

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Absolutely.

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... for, uh, for this deposition.

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It's great.

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Yeah. I feel like someone asking, "What have you done

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to prepare," uh, for our audience is kind of like the opening guitar lick-

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Absolutely.

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... from Welcome to the Jungle.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)

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People are like, "Oh." Uh, so here, Mark asks-

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Everybody's lighters immediately pop up, yeah.

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All right, sir. Um, can you give us your name and your job title?

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Yes. It's Andrew Allen Brown. I'm the chief operating officer of Newsmax Media.

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All right, sir. Um, when were you first told that you'd be giving this deposition?

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About, uh, three weeks ago.

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About three weeks ago?

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Three or four weeks ago.

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Did you meet with your attorney about this deposition?

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Yes, I did.

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How long did y'all meet?

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Over

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several meetings. We probably met a total of, um,

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five to six hours.

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Okay.

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Did you talk to anyone other than your attorney about the subject matter of your testimony?

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Yes. As part of, uh, my research for the questions at hand, I talked to, uh, several producers, uh, as well as

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managers who were involved in this subject.

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Okay. Did you review documents in preparation for the deposition?

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I did, yes. I looked at,

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uh, emails, uh,

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on the topic. I also looked at show rundowns,

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as well as, uh,

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uh, links to articles that showed the same, uh,

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photo and story that were, uh, prior to us publishing.

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And do you feel like today you are prepared to talk about the four topics you've been asked to testify about?

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Yes.

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Okay.

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So right off the bat, you can tell the, uh,

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the difference between this deposition and one featuring an Infowars character.

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For whatever you want to say about them being a horrible outlet full of the same kind of

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bullshit, Newsmax is an actual company. They

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operate like an actual business, not a single talent sideshow act meant to

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create shell companies to sell supplements.

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Their COO, Andy Brown, is obviously a

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shithead and a bad person because he continues to work in the job he does at the company he does,

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but he's also a businessperson. When there's a

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need for someone to appear as a corporate representative, he understands what that means and has done

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way more preparation than we've ever seen an Infowors, uh, person do.

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Yeah.

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He's representing that he's spoken to producers and

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looked into the matter in question in order to provide answers as

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the company, which is what your responsibility is in this case.

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Yeah.

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So that's refreshing. A little-

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It makes, it makes sense. Uh, I was thinking about this, and I realized that, like,

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for me personally, it makes more sense to not know anything.

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Mm-hmm.

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Because then

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I will not be asked to do it again.

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Right.

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You know, they'll have to get somebody else.

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This guy seems like a, he seems like a guy who should be giving one of these depositions.

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He's a COO.

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Yeah.

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You know?

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Yeah.

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He's... Yeah.

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In general, he feels like he's on top of things.

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Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:11:46.982)

That makes sense. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:11:47.802)

And in the context of, you know, like, being, uh, uh, there

Unknown Speaker (00:11:51.123)

as a corporate representative, again, like if, if you're there as a person-

Unknown Speaker (00:11:55.202)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:11:55.342)

... it makes sense to hide behind, "I don't know."

Unknown Speaker (00:11:57.883)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:11:58.322)

Uh, but that's unacceptable as an answer as a corporate representative.

Unknown Speaker (00:12:01.602)

Right. 'Cause it's factual-

Unknown Speaker (00:12:02.842)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:12:03.283)

... that we have information for it.

Unknown Speaker (00:12:04.643)

And I think he gets that.

Unknown Speaker (00:12:05.783)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:12:06.863)

Um, and it comes out in, uh, just kind of, like, "I don't even... We

Unknown Speaker (00:12:10.702)

can't, we can't, uh, argue over side issues."

Unknown Speaker (00:12:13.182)

I like that.

Unknown Speaker (00:12:13.763)

Uh, which leads to a fair amount of admissions.

Unknown Speaker (00:12:16.523)

This is fascinating.

Unknown Speaker (00:12:17.562)

You understand that on May 6, 2023, uh, a neo-Nazi mass shooter killed people at the Allen Outlet Mall?

Unknown Speaker (00:12:28.383)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:12:29.423)

Okay. You understand that on May 8th, 2023, Newsmax covered that shooting?

Unknown Speaker (00:12:34.302)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:12:37.883)

And you understand that on May 8th, 2023,

Unknown Speaker (00:12:41.123)

Newsmax repeatedly used the image of the plaintiff, Mauricio Garcia, to depict the shooter?

Unknown Speaker (00:12:48.383)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:12:48.783)

It's almost shocking that we're hearing a person who isn't trying to debate whether

Unknown Speaker (00:12:53.543)

or not the Allen shooter was a neo-Nazi.

Unknown Speaker (00:12:55.623)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:12:56.163)

He isn't in this deposition room to fight or waste time. He's

Unknown Speaker (00:12:59.143)

actually answering questions, which doesn't happen with Alex's crew.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:02.243)

Mm-mm.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:02.822)

In giving direct answers, Andy has indicated that there's no

Unknown Speaker (00:13:06.082)

substantive disagreement that this shooting happened, it was carried out by a Nazi dude, and that two

Unknown Speaker (00:13:10.582)

days after the shooting, Newsmax reported on the wrong guy as the shooter. This saves so much time because

Unknown Speaker (00:13:16.243)

these are just demonstrably true things. And him answering this

Unknown Speaker (00:13:19.883)

way means they don't have to treat him like a baby who doesn't want to eat their vegetables-

Unknown Speaker (00:13:23.342)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:23.462)

... which is what we're so used to.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:24.982)

Yeah. You know, I was... And the, the

Unknown Speaker (00:13:26.822)

other thing I was immediately thinking while he was responding to this is,

Unknown Speaker (00:13:31.163)

"Oh, if you do it this way, they can only get you for what they think you did, not what you actually did."

Unknown Speaker (00:13:39.023)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:39.403)

You know what I mean?

Unknown Speaker (00:13:40.442)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:40.903)

Like, with, with Owen, with the last one that we listened to, there's a certain amount of like,

Unknown Speaker (00:13:45.582)

"I didn't even know that we were gonna talk about that today.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:48.322)

You are the one who introduced this whole proceeding." Like, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:51.743)

Yeah, yeah. "You, uh, uh, are being so petulant and silly that-"

Unknown Speaker (00:13:55.363)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:55.363)

"... I'm required to demonstrate in your face that this is a pattern of behavior that you have."

Unknown Speaker (00:13:59.663)

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:00.263)

Uh, and, "You're an insincere fuck."

Unknown Speaker (00:14:01.883)

You could have just been like, "No."

Unknown Speaker (00:14:03.923)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:04.202)

Yep, perfect.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:04.923)

Like, I, I think that this guy, uh, Andy, still sucks.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:08.462)

Of course.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:08.663)

And I think there's obviously some pretty

Unknown Speaker (00:14:10.602)

interesting stuff that ends up going down throughout this deposition.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:13.182)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:13.523)

But from a base level, there is a recognition that they fucked up.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:18.763)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:19.163)

And he's not trying to dispute that.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:21.503)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:22.342)

And there's no, like, "Isn't it our First Amendment right to be able to say-"

Unknown Speaker (00:14:26.123)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:26.222)

"... whatever we want?"

Unknown Speaker (00:14:27.043)

Right, right, right. No-

Unknown Speaker (00:14:27.883)

Or any of that.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:27.942)

... he's a businessman. What's our number?

Unknown Speaker (00:14:29.342)

There's no-

Unknown Speaker (00:14:29.602)

What's the number we're gonna get to?

Unknown Speaker (00:14:30.582)

There's no theatrics or, or-

Unknown Speaker (00:14:32.702)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:32.702)

... or any of that, which is, uh...

Unknown Speaker (00:14:35.423)

I, I find it to be, uh, more productive.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:37.722)

It's a very, it's a very strange thing that we're like, "This is refreshing." (laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:14:42.663)

Yeah. So they, uh, discuss, uh, how there are editorial policies-

Unknown Speaker (00:14:46.883)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:47.302)

... at, uh, Newsmax.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:48.623)

Um, I first want to start with Newsmax policies.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:52.763)

And it is my understanding

Unknown Speaker (00:14:55.763)

that the company does not have

Unknown Speaker (00:14:58.363)

written editorial standards regarding the verification of images it publishes. Is that correct?

Unknown Speaker (00:15:06.263)

Uh, most... That is correct, yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:09.802)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:10.763)

Damn!

Unknown Speaker (00:15:11.102)

In general, does the company have editorial standards?

Unknown Speaker (00:15:14.302)

Yes, we do.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:17.403)

Does the company believe that its editorial requirements

Unknown Speaker (00:15:20.982)

meet or exceed the prevailing standards in the commercial journalism industry?

Unknown Speaker (00:15:25.023)

Yeah, it's actually form...

Unknown Speaker (00:15:29.342)

Yes, we do.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:30.363)

Is it the usual practice of your company to take steps to verify the accuracy of images it publishes?

Unknown Speaker (00:15:40.222)

Yes, it is our usual practice.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:42.202)

Uh, what steps does the company expect its employees to take

Unknown Speaker (00:15:47.482)

before broadcasting a photo portraying someone as a mass murder?

Unknown Speaker (00:15:52.182)

It's actually form...

Unknown Speaker (00:15:56.003)

Any photo that we publish in connection with any story, uh, should be verified

Unknown Speaker (00:16:01.722)

that the photo is accurate before it runs. Um, we have a central news desk

Unknown Speaker (00:16:06.822)

that we use for verifying photos.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:10.899)

All right, um, that, that process, did that happen here in this case?

Unknown Speaker (00:16:16.418)

No, it didn't.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:17.999)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:18.658)

That's pretty blunt.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:19.619)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:20.078)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:20.379)

"Hey, we fucked up. Let's move on."

Unknown Speaker (00:16:22.119)

We've got, uh, these standards that are in place.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:25.019)

There aren't written rules necessarily about how we confirm photos.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:28.999)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:29.240)

The central news desk will verify these things. Those steps weren't taken in this case.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:34.220)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:34.619)

And, uh, I mean, uh, the... You just never get this kind of, like, frankness from Alex. (laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:16:41.278)

No. No, and what's fun is I could feel

Unknown Speaker (00:16:43.139)

his like... The moment that he was asked about whether or not there were written guidelines and he said

Unknown Speaker (00:16:47.599)

no, I could feel his like... Within those six hours

Unknown Speaker (00:16:50.639)

of meetings with my lawyers, they were very unhappy about that.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:53.980)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:54.259)

As we talked about that, they were like, "You really should have had these written down."

Unknown Speaker (00:16:57.839)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:57.859)

And I was like, "Fuck, that's not good." And if you were an InfoWars employee, there would have been a whole

Unknown Speaker (00:17:01.918)

thing about how actually, it's the lawyer's fucking fault

Unknown Speaker (00:17:05.098)

for not forcing me to have these employee guidelines written down.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:08.640)

What's a guideline?

Unknown Speaker (00:17:09.699)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:10.578)

We-

Unknown Speaker (00:17:10.638)

Why would I write it down? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:12.199)

Yeah. "You, you can't prove that's me in that video of me."

Unknown Speaker (00:17:15.098)

Absolutely. (laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:17:15.759)

(laughs) What?

Unknown Speaker (00:17:16.078)

Yeah, and instead this guy's like, "Yeah, they were real pissed about that."

Unknown Speaker (00:17:18.959)

Yeah, it's almost-

Unknown Speaker (00:17:19.939)

Whoops.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:19.979)

It's almost like-

Unknown Speaker (00:17:20.979)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:17:21.479)

... this is a person who's being asked questions and answering them.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:24.499)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:24.719)

Whereas Alex's depositions turn into this exercise in like epistemology.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:29.778)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:30.318)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:17:30.358)

What is real?

Unknown Speaker (00:17:31.199)

Yeah. (laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:17:31.318)

Let's, let's get to the real nitty-gritty-

Unknown Speaker (00:17:33.479)

How can we know anything ever happened?

Unknown Speaker (00:17:35.519)

Ca- Can we? We can't.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:36.679)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:36.979)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:37.019)

My cells are not the same as they were five years ago.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:40.118)

Absolutely. Did you know every seven years?

Unknown Speaker (00:17:41.699)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:41.979)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:17:43.179)

Fuck off, man.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:44.118)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:17:45.179)

So,

Unknown Speaker (00:17:45.959)

not to be too kind to Andy.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:48.798)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:49.138)

Uh, but th- that is a totally different vibe. Uh, but he does still have

Unknown Speaker (00:17:54.979)

kind of

Unknown Speaker (00:17:55.999)

some stuff that he won't accept admitting.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:59.759)

Right. Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:00.098)

And we see some of that in this, this next clip, where, uh, they're talking

Unknown Speaker (00:18:03.919)

about how, uh... Mark is asking about whether or not you should have more care

Unknown Speaker (00:18:10.058)

when you're reporting on a story where you might accidentally accuse somebody of being a murderer.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:13.919)

Possible.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:14.638)

And Andy's angle on it is, we should always take care.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:17.759)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:17.919)

Which is nice.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:19.098)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:19.638)

Um, but then it leads... That conversation leads into, um, a position he is not willing to accept.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:26.979)

Right. Right, right, right.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:27.999)

Uh, the company should take special care

Unknown Speaker (00:18:31.078)

with news that might cause grief or damage people's reputations. Would you agree with that?

Unknown Speaker (00:18:37.618)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:40.439)

The company should always take care with any news regardless of what that news is.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:44.798)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:48.959)

Would the company agree

Unknown Speaker (00:18:51.159)

that its journalists would not fulfill their responsibilities in verifying the photo

Unknown Speaker (00:18:56.838)

of a suspected mass murderer

Unknown Speaker (00:18:58.838)

by assuming other news media have verified the image?

Unknown Speaker (00:19:01.739)

Objection, Form.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:11.019)

Can you rephrase that question?

Unknown Speaker (00:19:12.818)

Sure. The question I'm asking is if the company agrees

Unknown Speaker (00:19:16.818)

that a journalist for the company

Unknown Speaker (00:19:19.278)

would not fulfill their responsibilities in verifying the photo of a suspected mass murderer

Unknown Speaker (00:19:24.719)

by assuming other news media have verified the image?

Unknown Speaker (00:19:27.898)

Um,

Unknown Speaker (00:19:41.499)

I, I, I would say

Unknown Speaker (00:19:44.078)

our journalists should always verify the sources that we use on air or on our website.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:49.499)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:49.699)

Uh, and

Unknown Speaker (00:19:52.078)

we're...

Unknown Speaker (00:19:53.078)

Those sources can be multiple, uh... They can be in multiple places, so... Um,

Unknown Speaker (00:19:59.439)

you know, we can... The best is someone in- involved in the investigation, which didn't happen here.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:07.358)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:10.058)

Would the company agree

Unknown Speaker (00:20:12.199)

that when publishing the image of a purported mass murderer,

Unknown Speaker (00:20:16.219)

the company must use some combination of investigative principles

Unknown Speaker (00:20:20.759)

to arrive at a reasonable assurance that the image is accurate?

Unknown Speaker (00:20:24.898)

Is that consistent with the company's policies?

Unknown Speaker (00:20:26.818)

Objection, Form.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:30.398)

Again, it's not limited to just mass murderers. Anything that we

Unknown Speaker (00:20:35.719)

publish, we should verify that it's accurate, uh,

Unknown Speaker (00:20:39.919)

from the source that, uh, is involved with the investigation or involved with the story directly.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:45.919)

And you would agree with me that in this particular situation, uh, the company published an image

Unknown Speaker (00:20:52.378)

without a reasonable assurance that the image was accurate?

Unknown Speaker (00:20:54.519)

Objection, form. The, the company...

Unknown Speaker (00:20:54.519)

We published an image that, um, we had

Unknown Speaker (00:20:54.519)

not verified with the, the investigators in charge of, uh, the shooting.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:54.519)

And would you agree with me that in doing

Unknown Speaker (00:20:54.519)

that, the company did not have any sort of reasonable assurance that the image was accurate?

Unknown Speaker (00:20:55.578)

Objection, form. At the time we published the image, we thought it was accurate.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:56.979)

I understand that somebody thought

Unknown Speaker (00:20:57.499)

it was accurate. But when they arrived

Unknown Speaker (00:20:57.558)

at that conclusion, they did not have a reasonable assurance that it was accurate, correct?

Unknown Speaker (00:20:57.739)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:03.818)

They wouldn't have published it if they

Unknown Speaker (00:21:12.298)

didn't have a reasonable assurance that they thought it was accurate.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:29.638)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:50.578)

So here is this, uh, sticking point that he's coming to, which is,

Unknown Speaker (00:21:56.259)

obviously I can't say that they... I, I, I can say they made a mistake-

Unknown Speaker (00:22:01.358)

Right. Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:01.479)

But I can't say that they had no reason-

Unknown Speaker (00:22:03.699)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:03.858)

... or, or acted responsibly and still made a mistake.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:06.959)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:07.038)

You can't... I can't just be like, "Of course they had no reason to do this." It was-

Unknown Speaker (00:22:10.398)

I feel like what Mark is actually trying to ask is,

Unknown Speaker (00:22:15.679)

if your policy is you can publish any old thing as long as you see a bunch of assholes publishing it,

Unknown Speaker (00:22:23.419)

right?

Unknown Speaker (00:22:23.759)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:24.298)

Then in this case, do you feel like just seeing a bunch of assholes publishing this photo

Unknown Speaker (00:22:30.699)

is justification enough for you to say, "We have done our full duty in verifying it"?

Unknown Speaker (00:22:35.838)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:36.058)

Or do you think maybe you should fucking make a phone call?

Unknown Speaker (00:22:39.118)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:39.878)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:40.378)

Yeah, it, it... Well, it's...

Unknown Speaker (00:22:42.479)

To... There is no dispute that they made a mistake.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:48.358)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:48.679)

That they, they broadcast and reported on this f- uh, not fake picture, but like-

Unknown Speaker (00:22:54.398)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:54.398)

... uh, incorrect picture.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:55.719)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:56.038)

So there isn't really a dispute there.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:58.199)

No.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:58.538)

But it's still damaging, uh, for the Newsmax side of things-

Unknown Speaker (00:23:03.098)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:03.419)

... to have to accept

Unknown Speaker (00:23:04.898)

we

Unknown Speaker (00:23:05.719)

don't really ever have a reason for what we do.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:08.239)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:08.919)

Like, there, there's not like... Uh, th- they thought they were doing the right thing at the time-

Unknown Speaker (00:23:14.878)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:14.898)

... is the safe harbor that he has for the-

Unknown Speaker (00:23:17.479)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:17.778)

... like good intent and-

Unknown Speaker (00:23:19.179)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:19.598)

... we're usually right.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:21.378)

By, by saying you should always do this thing, you're saying that you mean to always do this thing.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:28.598)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:29.439)

But if what we're actually saying is you'll just post any old bullshit,

Unknown Speaker (00:23:34.098)

then obviously you think it's okay to do this.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:37.358)

Well, the issue, too, when you're... Even with what you're saying-

Unknown Speaker (00:23:40.538)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:40.679)

... is that it's not any old bullshit.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:43.199)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:43.459)

It's a certain type of bullshit. You know, it's... And this is-

Unknown Speaker (00:23:48.219)

Right. Right, right, right.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:49.019)

... where this deposition, I think, really gets interesting, is the selective way

Unknown Speaker (00:23:54.798)

that critical thinking is used.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:56.939)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:57.278)

Um, and so that-

Unknown Speaker (00:23:58.419)

And not used.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:59.358)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:59.699)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:00.219)

And, and that leads us into, uh, bringing up of an email from Chris Wallace, the head of the news department-

Unknown Speaker (00:24:06.878)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:07.078)

... at, uh, Newsmax.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:08.318)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:08.858)

Um, he has some very interesting things to say-

Unknown Speaker (00:24:11.818)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:12.078)

... in the aftermath of the Allen shooting.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:13.999)

I'm listening.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:14.499)

I want to talk about the circumstances surrounding

Unknown Speaker (00:24:17.699)

the company's acquisition of the photo...... um, and its decision to publish the photo. And

Unknown Speaker (00:24:24.442)

primarily, I wanna talk about how it ended up on Greg Kelly's show at 9:00 PM on May 8th.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:31.603)

So, I want to go back to that date, May 8th, 2023.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:37.042)

Um, and first I wanna show you an email that was sent that morning. Um, can we bring up tab one?

Unknown Speaker (00:24:44.863)

All right, and we're gonna be marking that as exhibit one.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:48.482)

Now, I'm showing you, uh, exhibit one is an email

Unknown Speaker (00:24:52.363)

sent from the news desk address to producers and reporters. Do you see that?

Unknown Speaker (00:24:56.542)

I do. It's a little small, but

Unknown Speaker (00:25:00.242)

I'm familiar with the email.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:01.604)

Mark, can you zoom in a little bit? Just talk to it.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:06.742)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:08.242)

All right. And- and actually, if you can scroll up just a little bit to the header of the

Unknown Speaker (00:25:11.722)

document. Um, we see here that this email was sent at 11:30 AM on the 8th.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:17.722)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:18.063)

This would have been, uh, Chris Wallace writing this email.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:23.163)

Um, yes. I would assume it's Chris Wallace since it came from the Newsmax desk. He-

Unknown Speaker (00:25:27.143)

Chris has several people who work for him.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:28.963)

Now, Chris Wallace is the Newsmax news director?

Unknown Speaker (00:25:33.903)

That's correct, yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:35.064)

Okay. The subject is, "Guidance on Brownsville and Allen, Texas?"

Unknown Speaker (00:25:41.143)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:42.143)

Okay. And you are familiar that, um, in the previous days to this email,

Unknown Speaker (00:25:47.044)

that there were, uh, homicides both in Brownsville and Allen, Texas?

Unknown Speaker (00:25:52.144)

Correct, yes. Okay. I'm aware of them.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:56.463)

All right. In the first paragraph, Wallace says... Do you see in the second sentence,

Unknown Speaker (00:26:02.824)

"We, as a network, need to be very careful about parroting

Unknown Speaker (00:26:06.804)

any reports about subjects in these incidents." Do you see that?

Unknown Speaker (00:26:10.522)

I do.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:12.483)

Does the company agree with that statement?

Unknown Speaker (00:26:16.222)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:17.022)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:18.202)

He then says that these reports are more often

Unknown Speaker (00:26:21.903)

than not, perhaps invariably, later repudiated. Do you see that?

Unknown Speaker (00:26:28.522)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:30.482)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:31.383)

Okay. And when he says

Unknown Speaker (00:26:34.182)

that they are more often than not, perhaps invariably, later

Unknown Speaker (00:26:37.583)

repudiated, what that means is that they turn out not to be true.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:41.682)

Right?

Unknown Speaker (00:26:42.022)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:44.103)

I

Unknown Speaker (00:26:46.202)

assume that's what he means by that, yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:48.182)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:49.482)

You see the third paragraph is about the Allen shooting and Mauricio Garcia.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:54.063)

Do you see that?

Unknown Speaker (00:26:56.022)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:56.883)

Okay. Uh, Mr. Wallace mentions tattoos and patches on social media.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:02.923)

Um, this

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refers to the tattoos and the right-wing death squad patch

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that was found on a social media profile alleged to belong to the shooter.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:17.542)

Is that a question or are you making a statement?

Unknown Speaker (00:27:19.702)

Yes. Yes, I was, I was saying, are- were you familiar with that, that these

Unknown Speaker (00:27:22.942)

references to tattoos and patches on social media-

Unknown Speaker (00:27:25.202)

Yes, I'm familiar, I'm familiar with the references, yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:27.242)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:29.123)

In the fourth paragraph, Wallace says,

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"We reduce ourselves to MSM status by repeating

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unverified and likely patently false statements and

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creating a distorted picture of what happened." Do you see that?

Unknown Speaker (00:27:42.462)

Wow, fascinating.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:44.103)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:44.782)

Okay. MSM is, that's an abbreviation that y'all would use for mainstream media?

Unknown Speaker (00:27:52.563)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:53.242)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:55.143)

In the last paragraph, Wallace says, "Treat everything we've been hearing about

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both of these cases with caution, please."

Unknown Speaker (00:28:03.363)

Does the company agree with that statement?

Unknown Speaker (00:28:06.462)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:06.863)

So, this email from Chris Wallace is really interesting because at first it looks like he's

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cautioning against doing the exact things that ended up getting Newsmax sued, but in reality, it's not.

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This is Wallace telling the staff not to report

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on these kinds of immediate, unverified news items that always end up getting disproven in

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time. But specifically, he's telling them

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not to report on the Nazi tattoos and the right-wing death squad patch.

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Everyone operating in this media environment

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knows that a Nazi mass shooting is bad for their bottom line, so the first mission is going to be deny

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that, uh, he was a Nazi mass shooter.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:41.403)

That's why there was, they were so desperate to find a bogus mugshot

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to push the narrative that the Nazi mass shooter thing was a media hoax, and that

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same editorial policy is guiding what Wallace is telling his reporters in that email.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:54.803)

Yeah.

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He's assuring them that eventually it'll come out that these Nazi

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tattoos were a hoax, so don't cover that angle of the story.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:02.202)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:02.563)

Ignore that.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:03.363)

(laughs) Yeah, your instinct is going to be

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to go with the verifiable mainstream media that's reporting on all of this stuff, but what you need to do

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is look between the lines for a not-Nazi guy.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:14.803)

Well, but that's, that's kind of where there's a little

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bit of, uh, conflict at this exact moment, because there wasn't

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really solid, verifiable information about a lot of the Nazi tattoos-

Unknown Speaker (00:29:28.002)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:28.323)

... and the right-wing death squad patch. Some of that had sort of a dubious origin on social media.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:36.163)

Sure, sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:36.643)

Um, and so not fully trusting that makes sense.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:42.002)

But,

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that's, that instinct and that behavior, if you're a

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news organization, should be applied across the board-

Unknown Speaker (00:29:48.343)

Yeah.

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... as opposed to just what's convenient.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:50.883)

Yeah. It's interesting that this is

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similar to the Watson email, insofar as it's like, "Hey, maybe don't do this whole Sandy Hook thing."

Unknown Speaker (00:29:59.202)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:59.962)

But at the same time, it's from a warped, Black Mirror-esque point of view of, like, "Don't be like

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the people who do, don't do this."

Unknown Speaker (00:30:09.163)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:09.722)

Yeah.

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"Don't, don't cover these spurious accusations that he's a Nazi."

Unknown Speaker (00:30:13.843)

Yeah.

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"Cover the spurious accusations that say that he's not a Nazi."

Unknown Speaker (00:30:16.383)

Exactly. Don't, don't do what you wouldn't

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normally not do.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:21.702)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:22.042)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:22.242)

It's wild.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:23.063)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fascinating.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:24.542)

So, um, in the, uh,

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moment when you're getting this story, uh, about, uh, the mugshot that is inaccurate...

Unknown Speaker (00:30:33.182)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:33.823)

Um,

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one of the things you probably should do if you're, uh, uh,

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in, in a reporting capacity is, like, ask some, uh, some

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questions about, like, "Could this possibly be correct?"

Unknown Speaker (00:30:43.863)

Sure, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:44.863)

There were some things that everyone did know after the shooting.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:48.442)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:48.903)

Um, the, the shooter was dead. Uh, the shooter had no criminal history.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:53.462)

We knew these things from, uh, the official sources.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:56.803)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:57.363)

And so because of that,

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they should have known that it's impossible that this mugshot would have been of him.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:03.742)

It is impossible.

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And unfortunately, uh,

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this, Andy can't even just deny that.

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Just, yeah, well-

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He just can't deny it.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:10.323)

Well, fuck it.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:11.462)

As you see, exhibit two is a Newsmax article.

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Um, do you see that it says that it was published at 11:56 AM on May 8th?

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Let me scroll down below the picture so you can see that.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:26.442)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:27.643)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:28.383)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:29.383)

Um,

Unknown Speaker (00:31:31.202)

the headline that says the shooter had a City of Dallas tattoo. Do you see that?

Unknown Speaker (00:31:37.202)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:37.903)

Were, were you familiar that the shooter had a Dallas logo tattoo on his hand?

Unknown Speaker (00:31:43.702)

Yeah, so

Unknown Speaker (00:31:45.863)

I saw the, uh, the, uh,

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emails from our news desk about that.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:51.343)

Okay. And so we know that at this point, at 11:56 AM,

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Newsmax knew there was a City of Dallas tattoo that the gunman had.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:58.843)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:01.542)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:02.923)

Okay. Can you go to page two for me?

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And scroll down to the highlighted portion.

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You see there's a, a highlighted portion there

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that says that Garcia reportedly had no criminal history, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:32:22.926)

I see the highlighted, yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:24.527)

Okay. And Newsmax also knew

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that the shooter wasn't booked for the shooting itself, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:32:34.906)

Objection form.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:37.567)

That was limp.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:40.607)

You mean, uh...

Unknown Speaker (00:32:42.847)

Well, he wasn't arrested yet.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:43.688)

The shooter who died?

Unknown Speaker (00:32:45.227)

Right, he wasn't arrested, he was dead.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:48.307)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:48.967)

Mkay. So the company knew,

Unknown Speaker (00:32:51.287)

as of 11:56, that the, that Garcia had no criminal history

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and that he wasn't arrested for the shooting, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:32:58.567)

Objection form.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:01.767)

At the time of the article, we knew that the, the shoot- the, the shooter was dead, yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:06.007)

Mkay.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:07.507)

And so Newsmax should've known

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that a booking photograph could not depict the shooter, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:33:16.086)

Objection form.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:17.386)

If you put it all together then yes, they, the...

Unknown Speaker (00:33:24.906)

Wow!

Unknown Speaker (00:33:27.646)

The people on TV are not directly getting

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stories from the people who run our website. So they should not have seen this.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:34.527)

Hm.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:36.527)

I'm sorry, please continue.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:37.487)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:33:39.126)

No, that's, that's all I have to say.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:40.646)

Okay. Um,

Unknown Speaker (00:33:42.346)

it's sort of the job of a journalist in a, a

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commercial journalism enterprise to put it all together, as you said, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:33:51.146)

Wow!

Unknown Speaker (00:33:53.346)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:53.866)

Wow.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:55.086)

Wow.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:55.247)

(laughs) I mean, when you put it like that, it makes us look bad.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:59.267)

I mean, it is, it is tough to be like, "All right, so, uh, you know, we have, uh, this piece, this piece."

Unknown Speaker (00:34:05.906)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:06.126)

If you look at those pieces together, you obviously have it wrong, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:34:09.606)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:10.347)

Yeah, I guess so.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:11.666)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:12.027)

I guess if you look at it, we were, we sh- it has, uh, when you ph- put it like this and lay it all out...

Unknown Speaker (00:34:18.746)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:19.027)

Someone has absolutely no, uh, no leg to stand on of like,

Unknown Speaker (00:34:23.907)

yeah, we, we, we either are dumb or we meant to fuck this up.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:27.867)

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, when you put it all together.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:32.206)

Y- are you in an industry that, uh, essentially prizes itself on, uh, putting things all together?

Unknown Speaker (00:34:37.987)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:38.427)

Are you?

Unknown Speaker (00:34:39.067)

Mm.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:39.646)

If you are, let's figure out where we wanna be

Unknown Speaker (00:34:42.067)

when your answer to that question is, "We didn't put it all together."

Unknown Speaker (00:34:45.666)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:45.987)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:46.226)

So there's about, you, uh, you would have every reason in the moment to see this mugshot...

Unknown Speaker (00:34:50.786)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:50.786)

...and be like, "Could that be the same person? He has no criminal history."

Unknown Speaker (00:34:53.746)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:54.106)

You know, uh, but those questions don't come up...

Unknown Speaker (00:34:56.007)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:56.007)

...because you want this to be true.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:57.347)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:57.887)

And so you run with it.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:59.027)

You know they did not book a corpse for this, correct?

Unknown Speaker (00:35:01.867)

Right. They didn't...

Unknown Speaker (00:35:02.567)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:02.567)

Weekend at Bernie's is what they're looking for.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:04.527)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There were not two cops holding him up by his arms as though he was, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:08.547)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:08.586)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:08.827)

So on the 8th, uh, after the shooting, uh, someone emailed, uh, Wallace, Chris Wallace.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:16.286)

Mm.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:16.447)

The, uh, a Twitter thread...

Unknown Speaker (00:35:18.567)

Mm.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:18.586)

...about the Nazi social media account of the, of the shooter.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:22.487)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:23.327)

All right, I wanna show you this email

Unknown Speaker (00:35:25.447)

from May 3rd. I mean, I'm, excuse me. I wanna show you this email from May 8th.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:30.047)

We're gonna be marking this as exhibit three.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:33.246)

At the bottom you see an email from Joseph, and can you help me with his last name?

Unknown Speaker (00:35:42.126)

Um,

Unknown Speaker (00:35:44.947)

I actually don't know how to pronounce his last name.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:46.947)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:35:47.706)

Uh, Marisu,

Unknown Speaker (00:35:49.106)

Marisoo. I, I, honestly do not know how to pronounce Joseph's last name.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:52.706)

I think, I think it might be Marasculio,

Unknown Speaker (00:35:56.067)

which is, I hope I'm not butchering that. I'm gonna try to use that term (laughs) , use that pronunciation.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:00.586)

Okay, just one.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:01.427)

Um, at the bottom of the email is, is,

Unknown Speaker (00:36:03.987)

at the bottom is an email from Joseph Marasculio. Um, he works for the Newsmax news desk?

Unknown Speaker (00:36:10.487)

Correct.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:11.007)

Mkay.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:12.347)

Um, at 3:33 PM,

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he sent Wallace, Chris Wallace, the news director, a link to a Twitter thread,

Unknown Speaker (00:36:20.606)

and said reportedly, "This is the social media profile discovered of the guy." Is that right?

Unknown Speaker (00:36:26.847)

Correct.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:27.706)

Mkay, and you know that that Twitter thread is by Art Tolar, a researcher from Bellingcat?

Unknown Speaker (00:36:34.067)

Objection form.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:36.927)

I, I am not sure who the originator of the, the Twitter is.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:39.987)

Mkay. Um, are, are you familiar that,

Unknown Speaker (00:36:44.847)

without knowing who the person was, that

Unknown Speaker (00:36:46.987)

somebody discovered th- a social media profile that they alleged belonged to the shooter?

Unknown Speaker (00:36:53.286)

Yes, I'm aware of that.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:54.766)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:59.907)

Would you agree that multiple people in Newsmax

Unknown Speaker (00:37:02.726)

reviewed this Twitter thread from Mr., th- um, about the social media profile?

Unknown Speaker (00:37:10.706)

Uh,

Unknown Speaker (00:37:11.867)

yes, but I also know that they don't

Unknown Speaker (00:37:14.827)

use information

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strictly from social media. It wasn't until

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the photo was being used by a number of other major websites, um, that the photo was used by our staff.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:27.626)

Mkay. Well put it th- I wanted to remember that

Unknown Speaker (00:37:29.666)

to come back and talk about these major websites, so we'll talk about that in a bit.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:33.407)

That is kind of okay in almost any other context.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:36.967)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:37.186)

Of a like, well, we're seeing this stuff from social media.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:39.327)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:39.347)

We're not gonna jump on this.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:40.867)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:41.626)

Uh, whatev- but like, it's, it's so interesting, the, the like,

Unknown Speaker (00:37:47.567)

okay, well, y- you all knew this in the background.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:50.427)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:51.246)

And that night, you had a guy on TV who was reporting on something else spurious.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:57.867)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:58.327)

Like, you have these instincts when you need them.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:00.806)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:01.186)

And then when you don't wanna have them, you don't use these instincts at all.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:04.306)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:05.106)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're capable of this level of cunning, why are you incapable of this?

Unknown Speaker (00:38:10.206)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:10.907)

Yeah, it is fascinating!

Unknown Speaker (00:38:11.527)

And how do you, how do you expect me not to think, like, it was a choice...

Unknown Speaker (00:38:15.387)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:15.646)

...instead of a mistake?

Unknown Speaker (00:38:16.726)

Yeah, it is very weird

Unknown Speaker (00:38:19.387)

in these scenarios, because it is like,

Unknown Speaker (00:38:22.887)

I live in topsy-turvy world where where I was when this occurred, everything made perfect sense.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:29.867)

Hm.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:30.347)

But now that I'm in this room with you

Unknown Speaker (00:38:32.027)

and you're asking me these questions, maybe it did not make perfect sense at the time.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:37.027)

Hm.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:37.447)

And in fact, you're making me feel like maybe we made a lot of bad choices.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:41.606)

But b- you know, the, uh, all you can do really is pretend to be the company and say yes or no and...

Unknown Speaker (00:38:47.367)

I mean, right? It's so weird. It's so weird. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:50.666)

So, uh, Chris Wallace got this, uh, email that had the, uh, Twitter thread.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:56.646)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:56.887)

On it.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:57.407)

Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:57.967)

And, uh, he had a response to that.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:00.606)

In this email, um,

Unknown Speaker (00:39:04.266)

hold on, let's go back up to that, that exhibit, AJ.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:09.086)

And in the top email, Chris Wallace, um, he instructs

Unknown Speaker (00:39:14.447)

that this Twitter thread should not be disseminated, correct?

Unknown Speaker (00:39:18.387)

Oh, that's not good.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:19.766)

And, and I would assume that's because

Unknown Speaker (00:39:22.347)

nobody's been able to verify it yet.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:25.367)

Mm.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:26.027)

Objection form.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:27.106)

Yes. Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:28.726)

So this is a key moment, because what you have here is a clear illustration of intent.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:34.847)

There are two pieces of presumably unsubstantiated information that Newsmax can

Unknown Speaker (00:39:39.086)

report on, or they could report on neither.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:41.007)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:41.547)

One of them is a Twitter thread alleging

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to be of the mass shooter, which shows him to be a Nazi and share a media diet with a large number

Unknown Speaker (00:39:48.887)

of Newsmax viewers. The other is a mugshot someone claims is the shooter which would show

Unknown Speaker (00:39:53.467)

that he's not a Nazi. They have no reason to trust that either is confirmed.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:58.206)

The Twitter thread would turn out to be accurate, but they would be

Unknown Speaker (00:40:00.887)

well within their rights to hold off on reporting it based on the level

Unknown Speaker (00:40:04.286)

of confirmation that they had at this time.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:06.987)

If this was about confirmation and standards, then they should have published neither.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:11.106)

But instead, they directly say not to spread the Twitter thread and then report on the incorrect mugshot...

Unknown Speaker (00:40:18.306)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:18.507)

...despite the very obvious questions they should have about its authenticity.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:22.286)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:22.967)

They made this choice because their coverage is strategic, not informational.A right-wing Nazi

Unknown Speaker (00:40:28.387)

lunatic killed a bunch of people, so this media space's number one priority is making

Unknown Speaker (00:40:32.467)

sure they have a story to tell that includes, "It

Unknown Speaker (00:40:34.847)

totally wasn't a right-wing Nazi who

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did it. They're just saying it was a right-wing Nazi because they wanna make you Trump fans feel

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bad." One of these pieces of unverified information serves that purpose and one does not.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:46.967)

So the one that serves the purpose gets covered, and the one that doesn't is pushed aside.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:51.527)

When called to answer for why Newsmax wouldn't cover the Twitter thread, they can very

Unknown Speaker (00:40:56.128)

proudly say that it didn't meet their standards for being verified.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:59.307)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:59.788)

However, because of their real-world actions around this case

Unknown Speaker (00:41:02.686)

and the mugshot, it's clear that those standards aren't real-

Unknown Speaker (00:41:06.027)

Ooh.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:06.266)

... and appealing to them is an attempt to obscure their real function as a media outlet. And he-

Unknown Speaker (00:41:10.788)

Almost like they should have written them down. (laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:41:12.887)

You could see it in that case, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:41:14.288)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:14.307)

I mean, like, you can just see this is,

Unknown Speaker (00:41:16.447)

ah-

Unknown Speaker (00:41:17.128)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:17.327)

... the, uh, you, you have a good defense for not covering the Nazi pictures.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:22.347)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:22.807)

They, they are not confirmed, and you have standards that you have to uphold.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:27.206)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:27.666)

Uh, but when in the exact same case, on the same day, you're, uh, betraying those standards

Unknown Speaker (00:41:34.686)

in service of pushing

Unknown Speaker (00:41:37.146)

a counter-narrative-

Unknown Speaker (00:41:38.146)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:38.567)

... it's clear what you're doing.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:39.947)

(smacks lips) Yep. Yeah. I mean, it, it, there's, there's a certain part of me that, like,

Unknown Speaker (00:41:46.447)

sometimes you can see the kind of person who plays golf with three mulligans.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:51.947)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:52.427)

You know? Because it is like he's, he's hearing this question and asked,

Unknown Speaker (00:41:56.407)

and he does get exactly what's going on.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:59.626)

And there's a part of him that feels like maybe I can just be like, "No. Push.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:03.567)

Next." You know? Like, there's no way for me to answer this question that isn't incriminating.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:08.686)

Well, in this case, at least, it's like, okay, so, uh, Chris Wallace said not to publish this thread.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:14.327)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:15.246)

Saying, uh, that... If, if you're being asked, "Is this because it was not confirmed?"

Unknown Speaker (00:42:19.547)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:19.867)

... yes is the right answer.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:21.246)

Correct.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:21.806)

It just will end up implicating y- the actions of the company-

Unknown Speaker (00:42:25.686)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:25.967)

... around the others. It's still not in your interest to say, "No, that's not why."

Unknown Speaker (00:42:29.206)

No, of course.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:30.106)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:42:30.166)

It's, it is fascinating because he is hiding the truth around a false truth.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:35.827)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:36.246)

You know? There is... But that's, that's like our, our

Unknown Speaker (00:42:39.266)

fundamental existence now is defined by the accurate falsehood-

Unknown Speaker (00:42:43.206)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:43.487)

... wherein people tell you something that is defensible but is also absolutely not true at all.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:49.067)

Yeah, and it's also hiding the sort of cancer of what this company does-

Unknown Speaker (00:42:54.286)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:54.527)

... in the, uh, thin candy shell of-

Unknown Speaker (00:42:57.907)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:58.266)

... that is the right thing to do in this instance. Like, you did make the correct call-

Unknown Speaker (00:43:03.226)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:03.226)

... perhaps with not rushing and jumping on this Nazi story-

Unknown Speaker (00:43:06.567)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:06.786)

... uh, waiting until there was more confirmation. You're, that, that is virtue, uh, in a media outlet.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:12.806)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:13.126)

Uh, and you're wearing that as a mask to cover-

Unknown Speaker (00:43:15.487)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:15.746)

... the insidiousness and awfulness of what you are.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:18.266)

Right. We understand that we are tolerated

Unknown Speaker (00:43:21.427)

because we exist in a barest minimum of appearing like a journalistic outlet.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:28.646)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:28.987)

And we didn't even accomplish that this time.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:31.206)

Nah.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:31.646)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:32.327)

So I think that moments like that are really what makes, uh, like, these depositions so interesting.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:38.266)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:38.306)

Is, uh-

Unknown Speaker (00:43:38.626)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:38.827)

Is like that, that, uh,

Unknown Speaker (00:43:41.827)

having to answer a question and the implications of it are-

Unknown Speaker (00:43:45.447)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:45.447)

... are shocking sometimes.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:46.606)

It's like a, it's like a pin in chess-

Unknown Speaker (00:43:48.286)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:48.286)

... where it's like, you're gonna have to choose, or is it your bishop or your rook?

Unknown Speaker (00:43:51.626)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:52.007)

You choose. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:53.067)

So, uh, the conversation goes on to talking about the very clear, uh, Nazi evidence-

Unknown Speaker (00:43:59.067)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:59.407)

... uh, that was presented from-

Unknown Speaker (00:44:00.766)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:00.786)

... this Twitter thread.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:01.746)

And this is the Thread Reader webpage

Unknown Speaker (00:44:05.146)

linked to in that previous email at threadreader.com, okay? And so I wanna take a look at this. Has, has

Unknown Speaker (00:44:11.086)

this something... Uh, is this something you've ever reviewed?

Unknown Speaker (00:44:13.507)

No, it's not.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:16.447)

Okay. Um, we, we see on the thread here, um, where

Unknown Speaker (00:44:21.447)

this person Araktoler,

Unknown Speaker (00:44:24.126)

uh, has disclosed a link to the social media profile on ok.ru. Do you see that?

Unknown Speaker (00:44:29.847)

I do, yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:32.166)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:33.226)

Um, and, and can you go to page three for me?

Unknown Speaker (00:44:40.527)

All right, and here we see the right-wing death squad vest the authorities said the shooter was wearing?

Unknown Speaker (00:44:48.367)

I see it, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:50.847)

Okay. And then could we go to page five?

Unknown Speaker (00:44:56.186)

And these are the tattoos that were on social media

Unknown Speaker (00:44:59.626)

that we were talking about earlier?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:02.646)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:04.947)

I see them, yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:06.186)

Okay. And, and this is very clearly Nazi tattoos, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:11.586)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:12.367)

Okay. Uh, Newsmax, uh, employees would be familiar with what a

Unknown Speaker (00:45:16.286)

swastika looks like, and they would be familiar with what SS lightning bolts look like?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:22.867)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:24.347)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:25.007)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:26.786)

Uh, can we go to page nine?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:30.606)

All right, here, we see that the profile posted about the

Unknown Speaker (00:45:33.567)

Allen Outlets a few weeks before the shooting. Did you know that?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:38.327)

I did not, no.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:39.907)

Do you know if anybody at the company knew that?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:41.766)

I don't know if anybody at the company knew that at the time that the story was published.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:49.086)

Could we go to p- page 10?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:50.547)

Oh.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:52.067)

Not what I wanted to hear.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:53.027)

And here, we have a picture posted by that account of the Allen Outlet Mall a few weeks before.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:59.126)

Do you know if anybody in the company had looked at this?

Unknown Speaker (00:46:01.206)

I don't know if anybody had looked at this at the time that the, um,

Unknown Speaker (00:46:08.067)

story was published.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:09.327)

Okay. And then go to page 11 for me.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:11.166)

Drop the hammer.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:13.626)

Here, we see a receipt that the account-

Unknown Speaker (00:46:16.027)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:16.726)

... posted for weapons under the name Mauricio Garcia. Do you know if anybody at the company saw this?

Unknown Speaker (00:46:21.246)

I

Unknown Speaker (00:46:23.626)

don't know if anybody at the company saw this at the time of the ph- the story published.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:27.626)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:28.806)

All right, we can take that one down.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:32.347)

Now, instead of photos from that profile, uh,

Unknown Speaker (00:46:37.686)

Newsmax began using a photo of the plaintiff, who had nothing to do with the shooting. Correct?

Unknown Speaker (00:46:43.907)

That is correct.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:45.447)

So you have, um, essentially... Like, obviously, this is not proof that it's this person's account.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:51.947)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:52.306)

But if you are a person who's, uh, uh, uh, capable of thought at all-

Unknown Speaker (00:46:58.527)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:58.766)

... uh, the fact that this account had posted pictures of the location of the shooting-

Unknown Speaker (00:47:03.967)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:03.967)

... receipts for weapons, and stuff like that,

Unknown Speaker (00:47:06.367)

you, you, even if you're not gonna report on it, this should give you some kind of a, like, "Uh..."

Unknown Speaker (00:47:11.186)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:11.266)

This, this looks more convincing that it is the person who did this-

Unknown Speaker (00:47:15.007)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:15.106)

... than a random mugshot.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:16.507)

Yeah. I am not gonna blame a rhesus monkey for, for, like, throwing something, but you're a thinking ape.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:22.246)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:22.487)

You made a choice. Here's the evidence you made a choice.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:25.367)

And here's, well, but here's all the stuff that you decided not to make a choice about.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:28.626)

No, that's what, that's what I'm saying, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:29.567)

You decided to ignore all this shit.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:30.367)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:30.547)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:30.547)

You cannot say that you did not deliberately do something.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:34.766)

You were not, like, reacting to a bunch of, uh, uh, star beams hitting you.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:39.327)

Hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:39.626)

You were like, "One of these is good for me. One of these is bad for me."

Unknown Speaker (00:47:43.827)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:43.967)

Now we understand.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:44.987)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:45.327)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:45.847)

Um, and so we get to the, the slight rationale for, uh, you know, this, this mugshot.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:51.606)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:51.867)

They found it on some sites. You know? It's other people-

Unknown Speaker (00:47:54.746)

Good enough for me.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:55.387)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:55.827)

Um, you've seen this photo, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:47:59.646)

Yes, I have.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:00.606)

Okay. One of Greg Kelly's producers found this picture

Unknown Speaker (00:48:04.987)

on a local news website in Wichita, Kansas?

Unknown Speaker (00:48:09.987)

Yes, uh,

Unknown Speaker (00:48:11.606)

Megan, uh, told me, uh, in my investigation that, uh,

Unknown Speaker (00:48:16.586)

the photo was in our, uh, mass system, uh, that normally,

Unknown Speaker (00:48:22.086)

uh, only has photos that have been approved by the news desk.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:25.206)

And she went out to verify the photo and saw it on an ABC affiliate in Wichita.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:30.146)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:31.706)

And she actually found this specific image, correct?

Unknown Speaker (00:48:35.414)

That is correct, yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:36.355)

Okay. And a different producer

Unknown Speaker (00:48:40.335)

also found the image on something called Today News Africa, correct?

Unknown Speaker (00:48:44.795)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:48:46.355)

Yeah, Chris Tomasz. Um, he's, he is the, uh, journalist who first, uh, brought the photo into our system.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:54.574)

Um,

Unknown Speaker (00:48:55.476)

when the story broke, he went, um, to search about the shooter, um,

Unknown Speaker (00:49:02.074)

and

Unknown Speaker (00:49:02.994)

he said that he saw the photo and story, uh, on Yahoo,

Unknown Speaker (00:49:07.755)

on the Yahoo News aggregate, and he also saw the link to

Unknown Speaker (00:49:12.275)

the, uh, the Africa website, uh, on MSN. And so, both of those major, uh,

Unknown Speaker (00:49:19.454)

a- news aggregates had this photo and the story, um, and

Unknown Speaker (00:49:24.735)

links to local news, uh,

Unknown Speaker (00:49:27.755)

uh, websites.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:30.795)

Did the company know when this photo was taken?

Unknown Speaker (00:49:35.494)

No.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:35.994)

Ah, that's not good.That's not good.Yeah. So

Unknown Speaker (00:49:38.175)

they, they, they found a couple of things that were on, uh, weird obscure sites that, uh, had been

Unknown Speaker (00:49:42.434)

aggregated by, uh, somewhat legitimate sounding

Unknown Speaker (00:49:45.414)

things like Yahoo and MSN.Whatcha gonna do?Sure.Once, once Wich-

Unknown Speaker (00:49:49.635)

so goes Wichita, so goes the news.Sure.Everybody's always said that.Yep.Absolutely.Mostly

Unknown Speaker (00:49:55.335)

the people in Manhattan, Kansas.Truly. Truly.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:58.335)

They, uh-I'm trying to think of another

Unknown Speaker (00:49:59.335)

city in Kansas. (laughs) Lawrence.That's the problem, that's the problem. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:03.715)

Yeah. The, the blackest thing Wichita has ever done is be

Unknown Speaker (00:50:06.494)

included in that sentence with a website from Africa.Mm.Yeah.So, uh, they get this picture that they see

Unknown Speaker (00:50:13.594)

from, uh, you know... Hey, there's some other pl-

Unknown Speaker (00:50:16.335)

people who have posted it.Yeah.But there's a watermark on it.Sure.Right?Sure.Of

Unknown Speaker (00:50:20.135)

where this mugshot is from.Right.And

Unknown Speaker (00:50:23.414)

so you could just go check that if you want.I mean...You could get into that.Eh.Or

Unknown Speaker (00:50:28.934)

you could actively try to hide.Well, when you put it that

Unknown Speaker (00:50:32.974)

way.And it's unfortunate because one of the producers, uh, literally is doing that in an email.Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:38.775)

Newsmax used the plaintiff's image to create this graphic, correct?

Unknown Speaker (00:50:44.675)

Correct.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:45.375)

This is a graphic that aired on Greg Kelly's show that night?

Unknown Speaker (00:50:49.715)

Correct.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:51.375)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:52.474)

Um, let's bring up tab eight.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:02.855)

Okay. We can zoom in a little bit on that top email. That's the only one we're gonna be looking at right now.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:07.255)

Um,

Unknown Speaker (00:51:08.255)

I am showing you what is... We're gonna mark as exhibit eight,

Unknown Speaker (00:51:12.074)

and you'll see that this is an email from

Unknown Speaker (00:51:14.434)

producer Sophie Robinson at May 8th at 7:50. I mean, I'm sorry, at 11:58, correct?

Unknown Speaker (00:51:20.675)

Correct.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:22.494)

Now, if it's 11:58 on May 8th, that definitely would be too late

Unknown Speaker (00:51:27.255)

to... for it to be an email relating to the show, correct?

Unknown Speaker (00:51:32.094)

That's correct. Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:33.135)

And if we look down, uh, from the email from Brian, his was sent at 7:55, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:51:39.454)

Correct. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:40.175)

Probably a reasonable inference that Ms. Robinson's email was sent at 7:58?

Unknown Speaker (00:51:46.795)

I would assume, but, uh, I have no way of verifying that.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:50.815)

Real quick, there is a bit of, uh, stuff that runs

Unknown Speaker (00:51:53.574)

throughout this deposition-Uh-huh.... that is

Unknown Speaker (00:51:55.094)

these time stamps seem to be a little

Unknown Speaker (00:51:56.775)

bit off.Yeah.But it probably is like a time

Unknown Speaker (00:51:59.074)

zone issue-It is what it is.... or something.Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.But it comes up a number of times.Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:03.295)

Certainly, it was sent before 9:00 PM.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:08.014)

Uh, I... Again, I have no way of verifying that. Uh,

Unknown Speaker (00:52:13.255)

you know, given the, the show times, then that would make sense. But

Unknown Speaker (00:52:17.375)

I have what... no way of verifying the times on the, the time stamp.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:20.494)

Right. I just mean from

Unknown Speaker (00:52:22.894)

the fact that she is writing about edits and changes being made to the May 8th show

Unknown Speaker (00:52:28.394)

would suggest to us it's a reasonable inference that this email would have occurred before the May 8th show.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:36.614)

Yes. Uh, I mean,

Unknown Speaker (00:52:38.614)

again,

Unknown Speaker (00:52:39.735)

it's, it's a reasonable inference, but I have no way of verifying the time.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:43.255)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:45.414)

She asks, "Is there any way you can move the words of the title down even more..."

Unknown Speaker (00:52:51.074)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:52:51.235)

"Move the words of the title down even more ever so slightly

Unknown Speaker (00:52:56.195)

so that we can see a little more of his neck as low as you can without showing that credit." You see that?

Unknown Speaker (00:53:02.775)

Jesus Christ.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:03.775)

I do. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:05.094)

And Ms. Robinson doesn't want the URL

Unknown Speaker (00:53:08.574)

for the mug shots website to be visible in the graphic, correct?

Unknown Speaker (00:53:12.275)

Objection form.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:17.934)

Based on the email that she sent, yes, I would assume that was... That's correct.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:24.775)

But Ms. Robinson, she was obviously aware of that credit and where the image originated, correct?

Unknown Speaker (00:53:30.235)

You'd have to be.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:32.695)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:34.494)

You'd agree with me from the internet browser history

Unknown Speaker (00:53:38.034)

that's been produced in this case, um, nobody at Newsmax visited the mugshots.zone website.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:45.434)

That correct?

Unknown Speaker (00:53:49.135)

Uh, to the people that I talked to who were involved in this

Unknown Speaker (00:53:51.994)

case, nobody visited the mugshot, uh, website. No.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:55.614)

Okay. So the source of the image where they knew it came from, nobody actually went and visited that source?

Unknown Speaker (00:54:02.335)

Objection form.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:03.894)

That's my understanding, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:05.514)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:06.014)

That seems strange.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:07.534)

Uh, that seems strange to not, uh, check the source of the thing. Uh,

Unknown Speaker (00:54:11.655)

the-Oh, yeah?... the direct thing, and instead actually, um,

Unknown Speaker (00:54:15.735)

m- make steps to obscure the, the source of the thing that you haven't checked.Yeah.That's, that's,

Unknown Speaker (00:54:21.954)

uh, messy.That's not good.No.You know-It looks bad.You know what I was thinking

Unknown Speaker (00:54:26.815)

while I was listening to that?Mm-hmm.I was thinking about how, like,

Unknown Speaker (00:54:32.454)

my evidence... Okay, so whenever I first started out doing hearing aids way back when I was a, a,

Unknown Speaker (00:54:37.795)

a little baby, um, I was working in an office and there was a finance guy, uh,

Unknown Speaker (00:54:43.574)

in the office as well who worked for one of those finance

Unknown Speaker (00:54:46.715)

companies. You know, the big ones?Sure.With all the money.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:49.315)

Uh, and it just now occurred to me

Unknown Speaker (00:54:52.514)

that, like, you can tell that they are a fundamentally criminal organization

Unknown Speaker (00:54:57.635)

that is successful, like all good banks, because that guy

Unknown Speaker (00:55:02.474)

never answered a question in an email.Mm-hmm.Never.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:07.094)

I would guarantee that if you looked at his inbox, there would be millions of questions ab- or like,

Unknown Speaker (00:55:13.315)

"Should I..." Or like, "Is this..." Or any number of questions and all of his responses are,

Unknown Speaker (00:55:18.574)

"Give me a call."Mm-hmm.You know what I'm saying? Like-Right.This is a man

Unknown Speaker (00:55:22.195)

who is trained from the jump to not respond to anything in writing.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:27.135)

It is all audio. And if you record the conversation, "This is a two, this is a two-way

Unknown Speaker (00:55:32.414)

state!" You know, that kind of thing.Mm-hmm.Of like,

Unknown Speaker (00:55:35.034)

you know this man knows what evidence is, is going to be.Yeah, but th-

Unknown Speaker (00:55:39.875)

you know, in this case, it, it just kind of gives the, uh, impression of not caring.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:44.614)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:45.315)

You know?Exactly. These people are not a great

Unknown Speaker (00:55:47.855)

criminal organization.Mm-hmm.That's why they'll never be famous like, uh,

Unknown Speaker (00:55:51.635)

other banks, like Wells Fargo. You know the kind.Well, this, you know, it's, it's not a bank.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:58.594)

Sure, sure, sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:59.375)

It's a bullshit bank.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:00.934)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:01.795)

And, and I, I just... I think that this is so, so

Unknown Speaker (00:56:04.514)

sloppy. It's like indicative of, of, uh... Like

Unknown Speaker (00:56:07.554)

you're, you're expressing the intent to obscure the source of the thing.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:11.375)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:12.074)

And one part of that is aesthetic, obviously, 'cause you don't wanna

Unknown Speaker (00:56:15.954)

look like you're just taking a random mugshot off a website.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:19.135)

Of course.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:19.514)

Um, but then the other part of it is making it harder for anyone

Unknown Speaker (00:56:22.675)

to verify or fact-check your chu- uh, your claims.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:25.394)

Obviously, obviously.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:25.795)

And that's intentional. Um, but then the other, the,

Unknown Speaker (00:56:30.394)

the other part of it is so clear, is show us a little more of his neck.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:35.454)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:35.914)

And that's because he has a neck tattoo.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:37.614)

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:38.474)

It, it's to demonize this person in the mugshot, make him look scarier to our audience.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:43.315)

100 hundre- I mean, imagine though, imagine that instead of that email, you just saw...

Unknown Speaker (00:56:48.882)

... give me a call.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:49.742)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:50.163)

You know what I'm saying? Like, that's how you do crime good.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:53.184)

Yeah. But there's just a feeling of, like, we are never, uh, there's th-

Unknown Speaker (00:56:56.103)

Nope, no one will ever-

Unknown Speaker (00:56:56.882)

No one's ever gonna care.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:57.682)

No one's ever gonna look, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:58.922)

Yeah. We get away with this kind of bullshit on a pretty regular basis.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:03.302)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:03.862)

And we, it's, it's, it's, uh, as Alex would say, hubris.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:06.483)

It is. It is absolutely like this is just our regular operating procedure-

Unknown Speaker (00:57:10.963)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:11.202)

... and only now are you paying attention.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:13.282)

Yep, yep. And, uh, when called to, uh, uh, account for it, uh, you just have no excuse.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:19.983)

Now, were you aware that on the mugshots.zw- zone website, it shows that this booking

Unknown Speaker (00:57:27.523)

photo was for an arre- a, a, a booking for evading arrest in 2022

Unknown Speaker (00:57:32.824)

for an individual that was 35 years old? Have you seen that before?

Unknown Speaker (00:57:37.922)

No, I, I was not aware of that.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:39.684)

If, if that information was out there, that's information that

Unknown Speaker (00:57:43.523)

would've been beneficial for Newsmax to have, wouldn't it?

Unknown Speaker (00:57:47.623)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:50.762)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:51.782)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:54.103)

But even if they didn't have that information, um, Newsmax producers should have known

Unknown Speaker (00:58:00.802)

that someone with a booking photo was not the shooter, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:58:05.302)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:09.222)

At the time the photo was ran

Unknown Speaker (00:58:11.483)

that we used the photo, uh, they, they assumed that it was the correct photo.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:20.663)

Well, my question is, I understand what they thought,

Unknown Speaker (00:58:24.623)

right, when they didn't verify the photo, but they should have known.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:29.443)

If they w- if they had done a, a, a job up to Newsmax's expectations, they should have known

Unknown Speaker (00:58:35.663)

that a booking photo did not depict the shooter.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:39.742)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:43.322)

Yes, they should have known.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:44.762)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:45.702)

Oh, okay. Okay, well, they should've known.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:46.742)

There you go.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:47.382)

You, what's interesting about this is that he's not, he's trying to evade a little bit, but not that much.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:52.682)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:52.902)

You know, and that

Unknown Speaker (00:58:54.402)

there's a demonstration of, like, even within your pretend rules at Newsmax, you fucked up.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:58.643)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:59.063)

Right?

Unknown Speaker (00:58:59.503)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:59.822)

You fucked up even in your false reality.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:02.402)

By your own fake bullshit-

Unknown Speaker (00:59:04.262)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:04.523)

... you are worse than fake bullshit.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:06.182)

And he can't really

Unknown Speaker (00:59:07.702)

argue with that. (laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:59:08.563)

No. We did-

Unknown Speaker (00:59:09.603)

Oh, these very basic facts that we could've checked that would've, uh,

Unknown Speaker (00:59:12.902)

made it so we never would've reported this-

Unknown Speaker (00:59:14.742)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:15.222)

... uh, we didn't even look into any of that, and we really should've known better?

Unknown Speaker (00:59:19.282)

Yeah, I guess that's, I guess, I guess so.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:21.222)

I mean, I, I'm, I'm listening to this thinking, like, "I don't believe," one, "I don't believe any

Unknown Speaker (00:59:27.262)

confession to the cops."

Unknown Speaker (00:59:28.902)

Hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:29.322)

Any, any one of them, any interrogation, I don't believe any of it,

Unknown Speaker (00:59:32.963)

because as I'm listening to this, my thought is like,

Unknown Speaker (00:59:36.262)

"I will say whatever it is I need to say to get you to stop asking me questions." (laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:59:41.103)

Y- you're, you're putting yourself in the position of Andy.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:43.362)

Yeah, absolutely. Whatever it is we need to do to make this end-

Unknown Speaker (00:59:46.422)

Hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:46.702)

... I will say, because this is awful. (laughs)

Unknown Speaker (00:59:50.443)

Well, I don't know if this, this is not so much a confession as a, like, recognition, you know, like-

Unknown Speaker (00:59:56.003)

Right. No, that's, that's what I'm saying. Listen-

Unknown Speaker (00:59:57.543)

We all fucked up, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:59:58.503)

... what do you, what do you want from me?

Unknown Speaker (01:00:00.023)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:00.202)

We know where this goes. I know you know. I actually did six hours of preparation for this.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:06.083)

None of my lawyers was like, "You are gonna get off on this one." No, I'm fucked.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:09.882)

Hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:10.302)

What do you want?

Unknown Speaker (01:00:11.282)

So the, the issue that I have is that when you're in a situation like this and you're being questioned-

Unknown Speaker (01:00:16.822)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:17.063)

... like, it's impossible for Mark to ever really be like,

Unknown Speaker (01:00:20.262)

"You guys just didn't want the people to talk about neo-Nazis-

Unknown Speaker (01:00:24.342)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:24.483)

... being an issue and, you know, the right wing has-

Unknown Speaker (01:00:27.063)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:27.123)

... a problem with people who are, you know, down this road."

Unknown Speaker (01:00:30.362)

Right, right, right, right.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:31.123)

"So your editorial actions are in service of

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denying the reality of neo-Nazi domestic terrorist violence."

Unknown Speaker (01:00:38.822)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:39.262)

Um, you can't ever really ask that, so the best you can really do in a deposition setting

Unknown Speaker (01:00:44.882)

is the, like, "Within your false reality, you fucked up," right?

Unknown Speaker (01:00:48.083)

Right. Right, right, right.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:49.023)

And that's a little frustrating.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:50.382)

Yeah, yeah. There is an element of, like, we have to dance around the truth, because if we

Unknown Speaker (01:00:55.543)

don't, that objection form is gonna start to hold water.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:59.123)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:59.443)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:59.742)

And you won't be able to demonstrate your intentions fully-

Unknown Speaker (01:01:02.782)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:02.922)

... that are obvious to anyone who's, who's looking on.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:05.702)

Yeah. Speaking of which, I think, so in tennis-

Unknown Speaker (01:01:09.382)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:09.663)

... uh, before they had, uh, super good technology and stuff,

Unknown Speaker (01:01:13.682)

you would have challenges where if the line judge called a ball out

Unknown Speaker (01:01:17.443)

but you think it was actually in, you'd be like, "Challenge," and then they'd go to the tape, that

Unknown Speaker (01:01:21.242)

kinda thing. But you only got three unless it goes to a tiebreak, which you get some more.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:25.443)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:25.902)

I feel that way about objection forms. There should be a li- there should be a challenge limit,

Unknown Speaker (01:01:31.023)

and it should be immediate. Like, you-

Unknown Speaker (01:01:32.422)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:32.523)

... if you win a challenge, then you get to, you get to keep it.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:35.503)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:35.842)

But if you lose that objection form, you g- you've g- you've only got three.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:39.103)

Well, one day we'll have an objection bot, and, uh, you're-

Unknown Speaker (01:01:42.563)

And then it can automatically determine whether or not the objection is valid or not-

Unknown Speaker (01:01:46.123)

Hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:46.123)

... and then kick you out if you've got three. Again-

Unknown Speaker (01:01:47.802)

One day Elon Musk will create Objection Bot.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:50.063)

I like Objection Bot, because I'm sick of Objection Form.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:53.302)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:53.623)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:53.862)

So, uh, we, uh, I think that it, uh, by, at this point, uh,

Unknown Speaker (01:01:58.682)

Mark real- Mark thinks that it's a good idea to hear some of the offending content-

Unknown Speaker (01:02:03.682)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:03.702)

... from this guy Greg Kelly's show.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:05.623)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:06.143)

Uh, because it kind of illustrates the, exactly what I'm talking about, this intention of why

Unknown Speaker (01:02:12.762)

you chose to cover this mugshot instead of-

Unknown Speaker (01:02:15.902)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:16.182)

... the Nazi stuff.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:17.163)

Right, right, right, right.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:17.882)

Uh, because of, this is

Unknown Speaker (01:02:20.282)

w- w- what was going on?

Unknown Speaker (01:02:21.202)

You guys and Nazis are on the same team.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:22.483)

Okay, well, I think it might be useful to show you an excerpt from that clip that I wanna talk to you about,

Unknown Speaker (01:02:26.762)

okay? Um, so let's bring up tab nine,

Unknown Speaker (01:02:29.963)

which is an excerpt from the Greg Kelly video. Um, we'll be marking this as exhibit

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nine. Uh, I'd like you to watch this, this brief clip from the show.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:41.563)

Uh, AJ, I think you're gonna have to set up to share sound 'cause I'm not getting any sound on that.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:49.342)

When you share your window, there should be a little box for, for share sound.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:53.362)

...

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whatsoever,

Unknown Speaker (01:03:01.742)

until they told us this guy did it, Mauricio Garcia, and oh yes, a white supremacist with neo-Nazi ties. Now,

Unknown Speaker (01:03:12.043)

look.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:13.083)

This is not a white supremacist. And oh, by the way, we abhor white supremacy.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:17.563)

But you know what the left does, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:03:19.463)

They think anything MAGA must be white supremacist. That is appalling.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:24.103)

This is just pathetic, all right? Now, there's a tattoo, many tattoos, and

Unknown Speaker (01:03:29.822)

someone w- at one point tried to say that's the p- t- th- the, the city of Dallas tattoo.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:34.762)

No, it looks like it's the Puro Tengo Blast prison gang tattoo, all right?

Unknown Speaker (01:03:40.103)

This is, um, this is not a white supremacist. Yes, if you stand on your head

Unknown Speaker (01:03:44.983)

and cross your eyes and take a drag on a cigarette,

Unknown Speaker (01:03:48.983)

one of those etchings might look like a swastika, all right? This is,

Unknown Speaker (01:03:53.682)

well, this is what they do now. Um, this is what it's all about, trying to

Unknown Speaker (01:03:58.222)

tarnish or somehow diminish the other side by any means possible.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:03.563)

This, again, totally pathetic. Now in the hours after the-

Unknown Speaker (01:04:08.382)

Okay, I have a couple questions about this. Um,

Unknown Speaker (01:04:13.483)

f- first, uh, Greg Kelly told his audience that the shooter was not a neo-Nazi. That's right?

Unknown Speaker (01:04:21.083)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:24.563)

Yes, based on the photo that he was given.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:27.003)

Okay. That wasn't true,

Unknown Speaker (01:04:30.163)

right?

Unknown Speaker (01:04:30.362)

Objection, form.Um,

Unknown Speaker (01:04:36.782)

I'm, uh, I know that you've shown photos that the shooter who, who died at the scene

Unknown Speaker (01:04:42.302)

had neo-Nazi tattoos, so I assumed that he was a neo-Nazi and, uh,

Unknown Speaker (01:04:47.663)

therefore Greg was wrong, yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:50.063)

Um, Mr. Kelly denied that the shooter had neo-Nazi tattoos, correct?

Unknown Speaker (01:13:03.650)

... objection form.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:05.871)

Um,

Unknown Speaker (01:13:06.690)

at least, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:07.831)

Okay. So this photo passed through the hands of at least 12 producers

Unknown Speaker (01:13:12.730)

and was, was aired based on their judgment.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:16.871)

Objection form.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:18.091)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:19.451)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:19.970)

That doesn't sound good.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:20.931)

Ah, I mean, you know, all the Marvel movies have

Unknown Speaker (01:13:24.650)

different directors but we know it's Kevin Feige behind them all. What are you gonna say?

Unknown Speaker (01:13:28.692)

Yeah. So the, the explanation for this, uh, as it, like gets down to it-

Unknown Speaker (01:13:34.211)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:34.291)

... is that someone

Unknown Speaker (01:13:36.230)

put it in the cache of-

Unknown Speaker (01:13:38.911)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:39.431)

... verifiable, usable photos.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:41.230)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:41.771)

So this is the one mistake point that everyone just assumed

Unknown Speaker (01:13:45.671)

after that. Like that's how you have 12 people who can make the mistake.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:49.112)

It's the turd in the punch bowl. Yeah. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:49.631)

Uh, uh,

Unknown Speaker (01:13:50.511)

that's the explanation that's given but it still, uh, is not

Unknown Speaker (01:13:55.112)

useful. And i- i- based on the information that you see, 12 people

Unknown Speaker (01:14:00.490)

all independently didn't say, "Hold on, this person's the wrong age."

Unknown Speaker (01:14:05.190)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:05.390)

"Hold on, why is there a mugshot of a person who has no criminal history and is dead?"

Unknown Speaker (01:14:10.030)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:10.411)

Like n- all 12 of those people had to not engage that part of their brain that is useful for journalism and for-

Unknown Speaker (01:14:18.671)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:19.030)

... uh, information, uh, relaying.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:21.430)

Yeah. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:22.451)

Because that's not part of their business.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:23.810)

Well our business is we put a bunch of shit in the bullshit

Unknown Speaker (01:14:26.911)

cauldron and whatever pops out is what's on the goddamn news.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:30.530)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:30.890)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:31.411)

And then we'll defend it as an honest mistake if we-

Unknown Speaker (01:14:33.871)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:33.990)

... if we're forced to.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:34.850)

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:35.850)

Cool.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:36.190)

What more do you want from us?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:37.610)

So after Newsmax made all this error-

Unknown Speaker (01:14:41.190)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:41.570)

... uh, they

Unknown Speaker (01:14:43.411)

got some pushback and it turned out that, uh, they were like, "Oh no."

Unknown Speaker (01:14:48.551)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:48.690)

So internally, they did a, a review and, uh-

Unknown Speaker (01:14:51.551)

Oh boy.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:51.850)

... investigation of how this...

Unknown Speaker (01:14:54.451)

Did they?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:55.310)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:55.711)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:55.711)

There's a report.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:56.591)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:56.751)

That, uh, Mark brings up-

Unknown Speaker (01:14:57.871)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:58.390)

... about where this image came from.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:01.270)

In this report, uh, the first thing he says in red print

Unknown Speaker (01:15:05.930)

is, "It would seem to have begun with a tweet from a," quote,

Unknown Speaker (01:15:10.451)

"ultra-mega business owner," unquote, who goes by the name-

Unknown Speaker (01:15:14.751)

Good quote.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:15.011)

... or goes by the handle, quote, "Blue Star." Do you see that?

Unknown Speaker (01:15:18.171)

I see that, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:20.671)

Are you familiar with what ultra mega means?

Unknown Speaker (01:15:25.631)

Just in a general political sense.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:27.690)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:15:28.230)

Can you explain to us what ultra mega means?

Unknown Speaker (01:15:30.291)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:15:32.470)

Don't make me.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:33.211)

I don't know. Just a,

Unknown Speaker (01:15:34.331)

a high end of a very... To my, to my knowledge, it's somebody who's a very big Trump supporter.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:43.110)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:45.511)

And then we have a handle Blue Star but we have no idea who that person really is, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:15:52.951)

That's correct, yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:54.251)

Okay. He says, you'll see here in the, uh,

Unknown Speaker (01:15:57.711)

the paragraph that's offset below the link, he says, "A quick look at the replies to her tweet

Unknown Speaker (01:16:04.110)

show the fever swamps.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:06.310)

Some proposing the liberals set up the shooting to discredit whites." Do you see that?

Unknown Speaker (01:16:13.951)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:15.331)

Fever swamp.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:17.511)

That's not a positive description. Would you agree?

Unknown Speaker (01:16:22.011)

Objection form.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:24.511)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:26.350)

What does the company take that to mean?

Unknown Speaker (01:16:29.970)

Objection form.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:33.331)

Based on the formatting I would, I would assume without having looked at that Twitter, um, that that is

Unknown Speaker (01:16:40.230)

a quote from the Twitter site,

Unknown Speaker (01:16:43.331)

or the Twitter post.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:45.070)

You think the term fever swamps was used in the Twitter post?

Unknown Speaker (01:16:48.610)

You know, I would assume so based on the formatting because if you,

Unknown Speaker (01:16:53.610)

if you look at the paragraph after that it says, "After

Unknown Speaker (01:16:55.551)

that tweet some websites took the picture and posted it."

Unknown Speaker (01:16:59.150)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:59.850)

My assumption based on the report is that

Unknown Speaker (01:17:03.051)

the indented paragraph that you read that has the word fever swamps is the quote from Blue Star.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:09.131)

Oh, I see. Is that what you're th- you don't think that

Unknown Speaker (01:17:12.150)

Mr. McGrory took a quick look at the replies and made a subjective judgment about what he was seeing?

Unknown Speaker (01:17:16.671)

I,

Unknown Speaker (01:17:21.150)

I... Not the way I read it but

Unknown Speaker (01:17:23.951)

I, I, that's not the way I took that paragraph, no.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:26.470)

Okay. All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:28.490)

So, so Mark is very clearly correct about the context.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:31.530)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:31.711)

But this guy is also now wrong about the formatting.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:34.730)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:35.110)

So that is a little bit annoying.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:36.551)

Ah, what are you gonna do?

Unknown Speaker (01:17:37.390)

But yeah, so this report, uh, they did internally found that it was an ultra MAGA

Unknown Speaker (01:17:43.030)

account had posted this-

Unknown Speaker (01:17:44.711)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:44.711)

... and that if you looked at their replies it was a fever swamp of, uh, people

Unknown Speaker (01:17:49.671)

saying that liberals did this to make whites look bad.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:52.270)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:52.650)

(laughs) And so like even internally they are like

Unknown Speaker (01:17:56.390)

understanding, oh, this is the intention, this is what motivated, uh, the

Unknown Speaker (01:18:00.911)

need to point the finger at somebody else-

Unknown Speaker (01:18:03.070)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:03.070)

... in order to play defense about this stuff.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:06.150)

Eh.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:06.911)

I pray to God I am never in a situation where I have to kind of like defend slang terms in a deposition.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:15.411)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:15.730)

Just how dare... Uh, uh, would, would you say that this, that you feel good about describing this as

Unknown Speaker (01:18:21.530)

on fleek? Oh, God, don't make me do it, man.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:24.470)

So the, the replies to this, uh, tweet were a flu oasis.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:28.051)

(laughs) Goddammit. That-

Unknown Speaker (01:18:29.390)

A fl- a fluasis.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:30.451)

Sure. Fine. Whatever. You g- whatever you wanted to believe.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:34.070)

Mm.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:34.451)

Uh, fine.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:35.770)

So, um, th- this obviously, uh, is tough, uh, when your own internal research people

Unknown Speaker (01:18:43.570)

in a matter of hours managed to, managed to figure this all out.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:47.070)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:47.650)

And everybody else

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made a mistake and

Unknown Speaker (01:18:51.970)

did the bad reporting.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:53.030)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We ate a bunch of garbage and then we spit it out. Sorry guys.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:56.591)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:56.970)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:57.530)

So Andy has to, uh, kinda be like, "Well, you know, we saw it on an ABC site."

Unknown Speaker (01:19:02.570)

Wow.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:03.251)

Um, and then Mark has a, uh, as the kids say, and you will have to explain under oath, there's a clap back.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:08.671)

Oh, goddammit.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:09.730)

They also, one of the Greg Kelly producers also went out and

Unknown Speaker (01:19:14.390)

that's where she found the, as you showed us the email earlier, and I talked to her about this.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:20.251)

She found the ABC website in Wichita

Unknown Speaker (01:19:23.310)

that also was using the photo, uh, with the story. So she saw the

Unknown Speaker (01:19:28.530)

photo on our news desk, verified that another, uh, ABC which is also a very large, um,

Unknown Speaker (01:19:35.890)

uh, major media company was using the same photo with the story.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:38.990)

Wait. Hold on. I wanna make sure I understand you here.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:42.091)

When we talk about ABC being a very large media company, we're, we're actually, we're talking about an

Unknown Speaker (01:19:47.951)

ABC local affiliate, just some reporters in Wichita, Kansas

Unknown Speaker (01:19:52.990)

working on a local news website. We're not talking about ABC national news desk are we?

Unknown Speaker (01:19:57.030)

We're talking about an ABC affiliate but, but still

Unknown Speaker (01:20:01.411)

the ABC affiliates my understanding, and I may be wrong, is ABC affiliates

Unknown Speaker (01:20:06.091)

have to follow the same journalistic standard that

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the main ABC has to follow. So.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:12.131)

But didn't we see in emails earlier

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that Newsmax should not lower itself to the MSM

Unknown Speaker (01:20:18.150)

status of the folks who will just put out anything?

Unknown Speaker (01:20:20.490)

Don't y'all hold yourself to a higher standard than the MSM?

Unknown Speaker (01:20:24.291)

Objection form.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:26.770)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:27.551)

So it's not really proper to just see something on a

Unknown Speaker (01:20:31.371)

local website in Wichita, Kansas and assume that that's good, that they must've done their job, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:20:36.430)

Objection form.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:39.650)

Yes, it was a mistake on our producer's part.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:41.770)

Yep. Fair enough, fair enough, fair enough.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:43.871)

(sighs)

Unknown Speaker (01:20:43.871)

All right. I brought up ABC and I was trying to say that they do their due diligence and we

Unknown Speaker (01:20:48.310)

feel like we can rely on their reporting but I also shit on the mainstream media all the time.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:52.490)

Ah, shit. All right. Yep. I realize contradiction. My bad.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:55.671)

Yeah.Yeah, it just feels like this isn't the e- th- that's what, that's the

Unknown Speaker (01:20:59.819)

ultimate frustration of this arena, is

Unknown Speaker (01:21:03.599)

it can't just be like, "Listen, I caught you in a lie."

Unknown Speaker (01:21:06.779)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:06.939)

And they go, "You caught us in a lie." And then we go forward. You know? There's gotta be this whole

Unknown Speaker (01:21:12.139)

fucking bullshit dance between two bullshitters about bullshit-

Unknown Speaker (01:21:16.158)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:16.260)

... for bullshit reasons, whenever we all know you're fucking lying.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:20.298)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:20.719)

(groans)

Unknown Speaker (01:21:21.479)

But it illustrates the bullshit.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:22.939)

Ugh, it's bullshit.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:24.219)

So, uh, Wallace, Chris Wallace-

Unknown Speaker (01:21:27.238)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:27.479)

... after this report had been compiled-

Unknown Speaker (01:21:30.679)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:30.878)

... and such, he emails his bosses, uh, to give an explanation. And it's, it doesn't sound good-

Unknown Speaker (01:21:38.260)

Oh, it doesn't?

Unknown Speaker (01:21:38.819)

... for folks.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:39.279)

Surprise.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:39.958)

All right, and again here, Mr. Wallace is emailing, um,

Unknown Speaker (01:21:45.279)

three Newsmax executives along with a researcher, correct?

Unknown Speaker (01:21:49.118)

Correct.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:50.738)

Give me a call. (laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:21:51.338)

These people who are Newsmax executives here-

Unknown Speaker (01:21:53.618)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:21:53.618)

... Mr. Jacobson, Mr. Knowles, Mr. Kanofsky, those are Mr. Wallace's, they,

Unknown Speaker (01:21:58.559)

they have authority over him. They're his bosses.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:02.378)

Correct?

Unknown Speaker (01:22:04.038)

Um,

Unknown Speaker (01:22:05.100)

technically, the only person who has authority over Chris Wallace is Elliot Jacobson.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:09.760)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:11.600)

So it's best to say that he is sending an email here

Unknown Speaker (01:22:14.958)

to his boss and some other individuals at Newsmax, including executives?

Unknown Speaker (01:22:20.139)

That is correct, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:21.559)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:24.399)

Now, early that afternoon, he says

Unknown Speaker (01:22:27.538)

that, "Valenti and Julia

Unknown Speaker (01:22:30.260)

came to me yesterday and asked me about it, and I told them not to run it." Do you see that?

Unknown Speaker (01:22:35.479)

I do, yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:37.859)

Uh, Valenti and Julia are producers, correct?

Unknown Speaker (01:22:40.679)

Yes, they are producers on other shows, but did not run the photo.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:45.219)

Okay, what shows are those?

Unknown Speaker (01:22:49.139)

Um, I

Unknown Speaker (01:22:50.458)

believe Valenti is on the American Agenda show, which is one of our afternoon shows.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:55.479)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:58.378)

I'm not sure which show Julie is on,

Unknown Speaker (01:23:02.559)

but I, I would assume

Unknown Speaker (01:23:04.819)

that Julie is also on the American Agenda show as well.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:08.618)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:10.238)

Mr. Wallace says, "I honestly just figured folks wouldn't fall for this." Do you see that?

Unknown Speaker (01:23:15.399)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:17.838)

And by fall for this, he means use the photo, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:23:22.259)

He actually told him.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:25.519)

That's my assumption, yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:27.019)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:30.479)

Do you see in the second paragraph, um,

Unknown Speaker (01:23:33.698)

Mr. Wallace says, "This was a pretty obvious unforced error." Do you see that?

Unknown Speaker (01:23:40.439)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:41.359)

The company agrees with that?

Unknown Speaker (01:23:45.158)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:46.338)

Doing a little bit of damage control with the boss-

Unknown Speaker (01:23:49.139)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:49.139)

... the higher-ups.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:50.378)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:50.439)

Uh, doing a little cover your ass.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:52.298)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:52.559)

Can't believe people fell for this.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:54.259)

Wild.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:54.838)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:23:55.618)

Jesus Christ.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:56.458)

Doing the, uh, sort of thing that we are accustomed-

Unknown Speaker (01:23:59.439)

(sighs) Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:59.599)

... to doing and, and generally do.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:01.219)

Oh, boy.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:01.958)

Yeah, that's, that's an interesting glimpse though, you know? That, uh,

Unknown Speaker (01:24:06.359)

Chris Wallace

Unknown Speaker (01:24:07.658)

(laughs) like, didn't think anyone would fall for it.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:09.559)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:09.759)

Do you watch your sh- like, the network?

Unknown Speaker (01:24:12.319)

I mean, that's, that is, that d- d- sometimes

Unknown Speaker (01:24:16.639)

a white glove slapped across a man's face is the only response-

Unknown Speaker (01:24:20.738)

Hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:20.859)

... to a

Unknown Speaker (01:24:22.439)

absolute fucking travesty of an answer.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:25.338)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:25.979)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:26.238)

Yeah. Yeah. So Wallace and one of these producers were emailing, uh,

Unknown Speaker (01:24:30.479)

about whether or not the picture, the mugshot-

Unknown Speaker (01:24:32.979)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:33.099)

... was accurate-

Unknown Speaker (01:24:33.939)

Uh-huh.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:34.319)

... uh, uh,

Unknown Speaker (01:24:35.439)

in the earlier time.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:36.578)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:37.179)

And I think that this provides a very strange image of Chris Wallace.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:43.238)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:44.139)

All right, and you'll see here that, um,

Unknown Speaker (01:24:47.179)

Mr. Wallace has forwarded some email, an email conversation he had with Mr. Valenti, correct?

Unknown Speaker (01:24:53.479)

Correct, yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:54.538)

Okay. And

Unknown Speaker (01:24:56.559)

he says... Essentially, Mr. Valenti asks

Unknown Speaker (01:25:01.838)

Mr. Wallace if the photo that they have is accurate, that if that is the Texas shooter. Do you see that?

Unknown Speaker (01:25:08.738)

Yeah, I do.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:09.719)

Okay. And he asks him if it's the mug of the Texas shooter, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:25:15.179)

That's correct, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:16.639)

And, and so I take it the two sort of meanings that come out of this, either he means that's his

Unknown Speaker (01:25:20.979)

mugshot, or he could be using the colloquial use of the word mug to mean face, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:25:28.559)

One of those two things.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:29.779)

Yeah. One of those two things.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:30.738)

In other words,

Unknown Speaker (01:25:31.658)

we're talking about a, a face shot of the shooter.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:34.259)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:36.219)

Okay. Um, let's scroll up to the next email.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:43.418)

And then Mr. Wallace says,

Unknown Speaker (01:25:46.519)

uh, "The photo is circulating on social and nowhere else to my knowledge. So no, I can't confirm it's him.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:53.538)

Have you seen it on any news sites? I only find it on social and blogs and no sourcing." You see that?

Unknown Speaker (01:26:00.038)

Yes, I do.

Unknown Speaker (01:26:02.319)

And then Mr. Valenti says he'll hold off, correct?

Unknown Speaker (01:26:04.859)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:26:07.658)

Okay. When Mr. Wallace says he hasn't seen any sourcing,

Unknown Speaker (01:26:12.359)

um,

Unknown Speaker (01:26:13.458)

can you tell us,

Unknown Speaker (01:26:14.939)

uh, from the company's perspective, why is sourcing important?

Unknown Speaker (01:26:19.899)

Ah, come on, man.

Unknown Speaker (01:26:21.538)

Well, to validate information. So, um,

Unknown Speaker (01:26:25.259)

we have a policy of,

Unknown Speaker (01:26:27.639)

um,

Unknown Speaker (01:26:29.038)

that we won't use social media or blogs, uh,

Unknown Speaker (01:26:31.958)

as a source, as a primary source for information. Um, but we will

Unknown Speaker (01:26:36.599)

use other major media, uh, that is running information. So, um,

Unknown Speaker (01:26:42.798)

uh, or our own investigation. Um,

Unknown Speaker (01:26:47.458)

so sourcing, uh, for us is, is

Unknown Speaker (01:26:51.259)

something that's very important to make sure that we have the information correct.

Unknown Speaker (01:26:54.838)

So that, that response that you had, that "come on, man"-

Unknown Speaker (01:26:57.698)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:26:57.899)

... is like I, uh, you're, uh, you have some instincts-

Unknown Speaker (01:27:01.139)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:01.418)

... because if you heard that question being asked-

Unknown Speaker (01:27:04.219)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:04.498)

... you should (laughs) be like-

Unknown Speaker (01:27:05.738)

That's what I'm saying.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:06.578)

... "This is a trap."

Unknown Speaker (01:27:07.198)

I'm telling you-

Unknown Speaker (01:27:07.979)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:27:07.998)

... I'd be great at depositions. (laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:27:09.779)

(laughs) This is such a trap.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:10.819)

I'm fascinated by these, this type of person who has this, like,

Unknown Speaker (01:27:15.719)

low-key element of answering questions as opposed to being

Unknown Speaker (01:27:19.798)

like... 'Cause the moment you ask me that question, I'm, my instant response is like-

Unknown Speaker (01:27:23.538)

Why are sources important?

Unknown Speaker (01:27:24.418)

... that's, that's mean.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:25.118)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:25.238)

That's a mean question. You asked that

Unknown Speaker (01:27:26.859)

in a mean spirit, and I don't think I have to answer it 'cause you're a mean person.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:30.559)

I know in some way you're gonna use my answer against me.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:33.118)

(laughs) Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:33.838)

Or this is a setup or something.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:35.118)

You're a meanie.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:36.359)

Right. (laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:27:36.719)

That would be my answer to your question. You're a big mean face, who's got a mean face. How about that?

Unknown Speaker (01:27:41.378)

When you're asking a question that is so obvious-

Unknown Speaker (01:27:44.918)

(laughs) Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:45.319)

... uh, it's, it's a-

Unknown Speaker (01:27:46.918)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:47.139)

... alarm bells should be going off.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:48.479)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:49.399)

And I, but I, here's, here is my experience of listening to that.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:52.078)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:52.439)

I had the same feeling of like-

Unknown Speaker (01:27:54.399)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:54.399)

... come on.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:54.918)

Come on.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:54.998)

Like I, I, I, I, I would be worried if I were in Andy's shoes.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:59.059)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:27:59.479)

But I didn't know exactly why.

Unknown Speaker (01:28:01.578)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:28:01.658)

You know, like there's something here that-

Unknown Speaker (01:28:03.998)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:28:04.078)

... is, there's danger-

Unknown Speaker (01:28:05.479)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:28:05.779)

... but my spidey sense is not, uh, acute enough to be like, here's exactly what it is.

Unknown Speaker (01:28:11.399)

Right, right, right, right.

Unknown Speaker (01:28:12.238)

And so here's what it is.

Unknown Speaker (01:28:13.779)

And so what I have here, and we'll, I'm gonna try to bring them up to the same,

Unknown Speaker (01:28:19.679)

is we have on the left-hand side, I have the copy of the email we were just looking at. This is what,

Unknown Speaker (01:28:25.679)

what, um, Mr. Wallace forwarded to his boss and other executives. All right?

Unknown Speaker (01:28:31.359)

And then on the right-hand side, I have exhibit, what we're gonna mark as exhibit 14.

Unknown Speaker (01:28:36.958)

And this is the original email

Unknown Speaker (01:28:39.498)

that Wallace sent to Valenti, the original copy. All right? And I wanna look at them side-by-side.

Unknown Speaker (01:28:44.979)

And do you notice-

Unknown Speaker (01:28:46.078)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:28:46.439)

... in, in the email that Wallace sent to Valenti

Unknown Speaker (01:28:49.439)

at 3:39 PM in the middle of the page, do you see that in the copy that

Unknown Speaker (01:28:55.859)

he sent to his boss and the executives, it says, "I only find it on social and blogs and no sourcing"?

Unknown Speaker (01:29:04.055)

But do you see how in Exhibit 14, on the other side, the words

Unknown Speaker (01:29:08.376)

"and no sourcing" were not in that original email?

Unknown Speaker (01:29:10.994)

Aw, come on, man.

Unknown Speaker (01:29:12.914)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:29:13.975)

Okay. So,

Unknown Speaker (01:29:16.194)

Mr. Wallace added those words into that email

Unknown Speaker (01:29:19.855)

when forwarding it to his bosses, even though they weren't in the original email.

Unknown Speaker (01:29:23.715)

Do you see that?

Unknown Speaker (01:29:25.895)

Yes, I see that.

Unknown Speaker (01:29:27.055)

That's not... That's sort of a dishonest thing to do, wouldn't you agree?

Unknown Speaker (01:29:31.655)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (01:29:34.375)

I agree with that objection. (laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:29:35.595)

Well, not necessarily if he's trying to explain

Unknown Speaker (01:29:38.395)

to the executives, um, his stance on the, on the matter.

Unknown Speaker (01:29:42.475)

Well, I mean, he's trying to make it look to his boss

Unknown Speaker (01:29:47.354)

that he told Valenti and no sourcing,

Unknown Speaker (01:29:50.715)

but he didn't tell Valenti and no sourcing. You wouldn't agree that's kinda dishonest?

Unknown Speaker (01:29:57.836)

Objection, form.No, because, uh, he's explaining to his executives on the

Unknown Speaker (01:30:05.234)

left hand. On the right hand, he said social and blogs. Um,

Unknown Speaker (01:30:09.935)

Valenti obviously understood that and said, "Same for me. I'll... Yes, I'll hold off for now."

Unknown Speaker (01:30:15.095)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:30:15.255)

So, Valenti understood the implication.

Unknown Speaker (01:30:17.175)

I'm not... What I'm talking about is what his boss... What, what Mr. Jacobson was being told.

Unknown Speaker (01:30:24.074)

And what I'm trying to get at is, Mr., Mr. Wallace was trying to make it look like to Mr. Jacobson

Unknown Speaker (01:30:31.376)

that he said something to Valenti that he did not in fact say.

Unknown Speaker (01:30:35.515)

Do you see where that... How that comes across?

Unknown Speaker (01:30:39.314)

Objection, form.I see it in the email and I understand your point, but I don't agree with you.

Unknown Speaker (01:30:45.376)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:30:45.695)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:30:45.716)

And if you look at the original email to Valenti, that email could be read as suggesting

Unknown Speaker (01:30:52.914)

that sourcing wasn't really necessary as long as you've seen it on a news site. Wouldn't you agree with that?

Unknown Speaker (01:30:59.574)

Objection, form. No.

Unknown Speaker (01:31:05.574)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:31:06.234)

So on one level, you can kind of look like, uh, look at this as Mark kinda being a dick about this.

Unknown Speaker (01:31:11.354)

Yeah. Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:31:11.595)

You know, because, um, it, it does not necessarily, uh, uh, implicate the central question-

Unknown Speaker (01:31:19.475)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:31:19.755)

... of, uh, the misidentification of the shooter and the broadcasting of this incorrect information.

Unknown Speaker (01:31:26.814)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:31:27.414)

Um, but I think it does, kind of.

Unknown Speaker (01:31:30.654)

Because what you have is Chris Wallace trying to present a different front-

Unknown Speaker (01:31:35.354)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:31:35.354)

... of his own editorial actions to the bosses-

Unknown Speaker (01:31:38.335)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:31:38.335)

... to insulate the ability to, uh, make mistakes like this,

Unknown Speaker (01:31:43.216)

make strategic mistakes like this in the future.

Unknown Speaker (01:31:45.395)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:31:45.755)

So the head, uh, head bosses wouldn't, uh, get worried about the, the potential exposure-

Unknown Speaker (01:31:51.395)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:31:51.595)

... of, of the business. So adding something in to the forward is... It shows intent-

Unknown Speaker (01:31:58.875)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:31:59.194)

... in a, in a way that is shocking. Um, and i- i- is, is in sort of conversation with

Unknown Speaker (01:32:07.114)

the email from the producer who wanted to hide the, the watermark on the,

Unknown Speaker (01:32:12.435)

the photo, uh, so people wouldn't know where the source was from-

Unknown Speaker (01:32:15.534)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:32:15.795)

Or trying to present more of his neck.

Unknown Speaker (01:32:18.154)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:32:18.375)

You know, like there is... There is a

Unknown Speaker (01:32:20.494)

editorial and behind the scenes, uh, game that's being shown here.

Unknown Speaker (01:32:26.194)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:32:26.734)

And I think that that is worth, uh, worth interrogation, uh,

Unknown Speaker (01:32:31.335)

even if it does kinda come off a little bit... A little dickish.

Unknown Speaker (01:32:34.015)

Okay, so how about this? We remove the rest of the law. I don't like it. It's a waste of everybody's time.

Unknown Speaker (01:32:40.295)

We replace it with these depositions, but

Unknown Speaker (01:32:44.175)

you keep score by putting a piece of American cheese on your face every time you get

Unknown Speaker (01:32:49.274)

hit by what is metaphorically a piece of American cheese on your face.

Unknown Speaker (01:32:53.335)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:32:53.675)

Right? Once your face is fully covered, you lose.

Unknown Speaker (01:32:56.975)

Hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:32:57.454)

Now, if, if you get a point back on Mark, he's gotta put

Unknown Speaker (01:33:01.614)

government cheese on his face. If he fa- if his face is covered, you win.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:05.494)

Can I... Can I ask you a-

Unknown Speaker (01:33:07.175)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:07.314)

... very important question?

Unknown Speaker (01:33:08.414)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:09.114)

Were you a producer for Nickelodeon in the late '90s?

Unknown Speaker (01:33:12.395)

No, but God-

Unknown Speaker (01:33:13.034)

Because-

Unknown Speaker (01:33:13.034)

... if I wouldn't have dreamt of it.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:14.295)

'Cause you would have made a million dollars with that show.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:16.854)

I had so many good ideas as a nine-year-old.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:19.854)

Put cheese on people's faces.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:21.154)

I'm telling you-

Unknown Speaker (01:33:21.994)

Let's do it.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:22.675)

You, you'd think that it wouldn't solve a lot of

Unknown Speaker (01:33:24.774)

problems, but I'll tell you something. Cheese solves a lot of problems.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:27.994)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:28.595)

Everybody knows that.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:29.515)

Well, I mean, we saw the effect that gummy worms had in the initial, uh, deposition that Owen did. Uh-

Unknown Speaker (01:33:33.975)

We replaced the whole law with it.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:35.555)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:35.975)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:36.755)

So, um, the presentation that I believe that Newsmax wants to have-

Unknown Speaker (01:33:41.034)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:41.175)

... is that they made a sincere mistake, uh, they didn't follow their own, uh,

Unknown Speaker (01:33:45.795)

standards, they didn't live up to their own standards.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:48.095)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:48.414)

But they realized their mistake and, oh well. You know?

Unknown Speaker (01:33:51.614)

We're contrite, we're happy, we're gonna do better.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:54.055)

We're gonna do better.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:54.135)

Yep, yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:54.895)

Um, but then here's an email from a week later.

Unknown Speaker (01:33:57.494)

Ooh!

Unknown Speaker (01:33:58.274)

Now, I'm showing you now an email that was sent about a week

Unknown Speaker (01:34:01.515)

later, about a week after all this happened, and that was on 5/17/2023.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:07.994)

This email was sent by Amalia Sella. Is that how you say her name?

Unknown Speaker (01:34:13.215)

Amalia Sella.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:15.114)

Amalia Sella. Okay, she's an executive producer, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:34:19.335)

Yeah, for Chris Del Seibo's show.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:21.295)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:22.175)

Um, that was one of the shows that published the wrong picture, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:34:26.875)

On the 8th, correct.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:28.555)

So now this producer a week later is asking, "Did we ever get an official photo

Unknown Speaker (01:34:34.114)

of this prolific poster and notorious white supremacist?" Can you see that?

Unknown Speaker (01:34:40.675)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:41.755)

Um, Ms. Sella's still mocking the idea

Unknown Speaker (01:34:45.694)

that this shooter is a white supremacist, correct?

Unknown Speaker (01:34:49.755)

Objection, Form.I, I am not

Unknown Speaker (01:34:54.595)

going to venture to guess what's inside Amalia's head with this.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:58.414)

Got it.

Unknown Speaker (01:34:59.154)

That's fair enough. But y- you have someone who made this,

Unknown Speaker (01:35:03.694)

quote unquote, "error." They were a producer on a show that misidentified the shooter.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:08.614)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:08.994)

Has... They have every reason to know that they entirely fucked up and put out the wrong information.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:14.034)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:14.414)

By a week later, the information that they didn't cover is only more credible-

Unknown Speaker (01:35:20.755)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:20.854)

... in standing up to scrutiny.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:22.935)

Um, and there is no lesson learned. There is... There is no

Unknown Speaker (01:35:26.875)

recognition that they did wrong because they didn't do wrong.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:29.954)

Mm-mm.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:30.494)

The goal is not to provide accurate information.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:33.194)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:33.574)

It's to play the strategic role in media that they play.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:38.215)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:38.395)

So for her, there is no need for analysis and there's no need for, "Well, we fucked that up, let's-"

Unknown Speaker (01:35:43.895)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:44.154)

"... see what we can improve."

Unknown Speaker (01:35:45.375)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:45.395)

There's nothing to improve other than, "Let's get away with it."

Unknown Speaker (01:35:48.595)

Right. Right, right, right, right.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:49.234)

You know?

Unknown Speaker (01:35:49.595)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:35:50.975)

Yeah, I mean that's... The only problem with that is, like,

Unknown Speaker (01:35:54.574)

eventually if you follow that line of questioning, then the real conversation you're having is,

Unknown Speaker (01:36:00.274)

you guys are part of a massive global media operation worth

Unknown Speaker (01:36:04.194)

billions upon billions upon billions, if not trillions of dollars,

Unknown Speaker (01:36:07.295)

and you play a small part in doing this entire

Unknown Speaker (01:36:09.854)

thing, all of which all of you are relatively speaking in concert about. So what we're doing is

Unknown Speaker (01:36:15.154)

touching a tiny little drop in the bucket of bullshit-

Unknown Speaker (01:36:19.095)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:36:19.274)

... that we exist in. You know?

Unknown Speaker (01:36:21.295)

Well, yeah. A- and one of the things that I find most

Unknown Speaker (01:36:23.255)

interesting about, like, if you just zoom out and look at this-

Unknown Speaker (01:36:26.854)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:36:27.034)

... uh, this deposition in and of itself, you have Chris Wallace, who's reporting to his supervisors.

Unknown Speaker (01:36:33.354)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:36:33.975)

Um, and the addition of this line in his email to them, it almost

Unknown Speaker (01:36:41.835)

indicates a fear that

Unknown Speaker (01:36:44.734)

if the bosses knew-

Unknown Speaker (01:36:46.354)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:36:46.795)

... they wouldn't allow this.

Unknown Speaker (01:36:48.114)

Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (01:36:48.994)

(laughs) And that

Unknown Speaker (01:36:50.654)

makes me s- more scared than

Unknown Speaker (01:36:53.914)

the sort of way that you'd look at it without that, that insight.

Unknown Speaker (01:36:57.475)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:36:58.015)

That everyone is just bad and, and fucked up. (laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:37:00.814)

Right, right, right, right.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:01.574)

The idea that maybe there's just somewhere in the middle, there's someone who's diverting this stream-Uh,

Unknown Speaker (01:37:07.871)

and good intentions could actually exist.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:11.070)

Well-

Unknown Speaker (01:37:11.131)

That's scary to me.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:12.411)

I mean, I think that's more, like, there's always gotta be an insulation on the executive's part, and a smart

Unknown Speaker (01:37:18.230)

news director would know that, uh, the

Unknown Speaker (01:37:21.511)

last thing you wanna do is ever in- implicate the people who are actually at fault.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:26.350)

That's probably true.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:27.490)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:27.751)

You're probably right.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:28.652)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:29.091)

Um,

Unknown Speaker (01:37:30.051)

it- it- it...

Unknown Speaker (01:37:31.711)

Yeah, I think my defense, uh, to all of this

Unknown Speaker (01:37:35.231)

would be, "I am a mote of dust in the universe."

Unknown Speaker (01:37:39.610)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:40.150)

"And my meaninglessness is

Unknown Speaker (01:37:43.190)

far, uh, greater than whatever meaning you are ascribing to me right now."

Unknown Speaker (01:37:47.690)

That's what you would say in the deposition?

Unknown Speaker (01:37:50.011)

I think in the cosmic sense, I would have to say that I am, I am nothing.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:53.752)

Speaking as the company.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:54.752)

I am empty.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:55.711)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:56.030)

I am, uh, I am water. I am nothing here.

Unknown Speaker (01:37:58.530)

On behalf of-

Unknown Speaker (01:37:59.530)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:37:59.970)

... uh, uh, Newsmax, let me read you a Zen koan.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:03.331)

(laughs) I mean, there's a certain aspect of, like, "Hey, let's face it, none of us are anything, are we?"

Unknown Speaker (01:38:09.610)

As Newsmax-

Unknown Speaker (01:38:10.391)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:38:10.391)

... I'd like to announce that I have reached enlightenment."

Unknown Speaker (01:38:12.451)

I mean, I don't, I think there are worse defenses and he's providing one of them.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:16.490)

Yeah. So we, uh, have one last clip here, and it's just kind of the closing out of this. And I think that

Unknown Speaker (01:38:22.690)

o- one of the big differences between this and any of the InfoWars-

Unknown Speaker (01:38:27.390)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:27.832)

... uh, depositions, is that he can't really deny wrongdoing.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:31.890)

No.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:32.070)

Like, and he's not even really trying.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:34.310)

Right, right.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:34.791)

"We, we fucked up."

Unknown Speaker (01:38:35.952)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:36.890)

In deciding to use plaintiff's photo,

Unknown Speaker (01:38:40.631)

Newsmax producers did not act as carefully as they should have.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:44.771)

Correct?

Unknown Speaker (01:38:46.350)

That is correct.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:47.350)

Objection, form.You would agree that

Unknown Speaker (01:38:51.711)

Newsmax producers failed to investigate the truth or falsity of the photo before publication.

Unknown Speaker (01:38:58.912)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:01.091)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:03.470)

You do not dispute that information was available on May 8th

Unknown Speaker (01:39:08.310)

that would have created serious doubts about the accuracy of the photo Newsmax was using?

Unknown Speaker (01:39:15.350)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:18.230)

I do not dispute that, yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:20.490)

Um,

Unknown Speaker (01:39:21.430)

Newsmax doesn't dispute they did a terrible wrong

Unknown Speaker (01:39:24.530)

to our client, uh, Mauricio Garcia, who had nothing to do with the shooting.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:28.251)

Objection, form.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:37.270)

Can you ask that in a different way?

Unknown Speaker (01:39:38.730)

I mean, I'd, I'd like it the way that I'd asked, um, which is that Newsmax agreed

Unknown Speaker (01:39:43.951)

it did a terrible wrong to our client.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:47.511)

Can I get the language of origin?

Unknown Speaker (01:39:50.810)

If by wrong you mean we, we mistakenly used his photo incorrectly, then,

Unknown Speaker (01:39:56.770)

then yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:39:59.430)

I mean, in doing that, in using that wrong photo, the mistake Newsmax made

Unknown Speaker (01:40:06.530)

was not living up to the standard of what a reasonable journalist should do. Correct?

Unknown Speaker (01:40:13.490)

Objection, formed.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:16.470)

By making that mistake, our producers did not follow our procedures, yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:21.070)

Okay. And your procedures are there to ensure

Unknown Speaker (01:40:24.631)

that they act as reasonable journalists, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:40:28.270)

That is correct.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:29.110)

And that did not happen in this case?

Unknown Speaker (01:40:31.930)

That is correct.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:32.911)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:33.371)

Well, that, uh, that about says it. I think that that last clip is, is great, because

Unknown Speaker (01:40:38.850)

there is, uh, no ability to deny that, you know, "We made a mistake and we fucked up."

Unknown Speaker (01:40:44.570)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:45.230)

But

Unknown Speaker (01:40:46.190)

an absolute unwillingness to, uh, accept adjectives.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:51.310)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:52.070)

The horrible wrong or whatever is really, I think, what set him off.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:55.671)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:40:55.770)

Like if you just said, "You d- you, you wronged, uh, the plaintiff

Unknown Speaker (01:40:59.411)

in this case by making that mistake," I, I imagine he'd just be like, "Yes." But the horrible wrong,

Unknown Speaker (01:41:05.730)

I think (laughs) is what he can't, he can't answer. "Yes"?

Unknown Speaker (01:41:08.470)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:08.730)

A horrible wrong?

Unknown Speaker (01:41:09.690)

I get that. I get that.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:11.890)

I, I think, I feel like part of this is actually the thing that

Unknown Speaker (01:41:16.150)

bothers me the most, because if I was him, I would be stoked to admit to this crime.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:23.751)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:24.051)

Because this is the crime that is far less objectionable than the one that I commit on the regular, you know?

Unknown Speaker (01:41:30.331)

Which is?

Unknown Speaker (01:41:30.911)

Like, just being at Newsmax.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:32.650)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:33.131)

You know?

Unknown Speaker (01:41:33.690)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:34.030)

Like, there is a, there is an element of, like, "Oh, oh, hell yeah, I'll, I'll plead down to manslaughter."

Unknown Speaker (01:41:40.190)

Well-

Unknown Speaker (01:41:40.251)

"I'll plead down to manslaughter all day 'cause I murder one left and right."

Unknown Speaker (01:41:43.770)

I think what you're describing is, like, this is a discrete event, uh-

Unknown Speaker (01:41:47.551)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:47.551)

... that you can admit wrongdoing in-

Unknown Speaker (01:41:49.251)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:49.251)

... as opposed to the function and structure of what you do is-

Unknown Speaker (01:41:53.530)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:53.730)

... this.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:54.631)

This is your, your raison d'etre-

Unknown Speaker (01:41:56.871)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:57.070)

... is simply this.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:58.451)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:41:58.770)

What you are doing now that you are now saying was a mistake.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:03.310)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:03.690)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:04.051)

The, the process by which you made this mistake is what you do.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:07.970)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:08.530)

And

Unknown Speaker (01:42:09.791)

being a

Unknown Speaker (01:42:11.671)

penitent about, uh, the individual incident-

Unknown Speaker (01:42:15.810)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:16.030)

... is so much easier than recognizing the fraudulent whole-

Unknown Speaker (01:42:19.490)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:19.770)

... of what you do.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:20.451)

Yeah. If you plead manslaughter and you get five to seven, even though you committed

Unknown Speaker (01:42:24.770)

murder one, then you're not, like, learning your lesson. You're like, "I saved myself 17 years of life-

Unknown Speaker (01:42:31.490)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:31.810)

... by pulling one over on you."

Unknown Speaker (01:42:33.511)

You're negotiating out of this type-

Unknown Speaker (01:42:35.451)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:36.190)

... spot.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:36.211)

Yes. That's what it is. It is not accountability. It's a, it's a negotiation.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:40.711)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:41.011)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:41.570)

And, and I think that, uh, in the process, you end up

Unknown Speaker (01:42:44.631)

seeing these really interesting glimpses that you wouldn't get otherwise.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:47.610)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:48.310)

And, you know, there are some things that are shocking, like, you know, Wallace changing this email, or

Unknown Speaker (01:42:53.570)

him having this insight of, "Don't report on the Nazi stuff."

Unknown Speaker (01:42:57.791)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:58.270)

Uh-

Unknown Speaker (01:42:58.350)

That one's crazy.

Unknown Speaker (01:42:59.451)

And, and the... You know, I, I think, I think that that

Unknown Speaker (01:43:03.470)

is such a important window, because it helps

Unknown Speaker (01:43:06.390)

characterize and understand what this media system and these businesses are.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:10.770)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:11.331)

Um,

Unknown Speaker (01:43:12.291)

but, yeah. Ultimately, does it lead to a hammer dropping? Maybe not.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:17.230)

I bet... You know, like, I hadn't really thought about it this way, but I would now like a meta analysis of

Unknown Speaker (01:43:26.190)

how often convictions happened before email and after email.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:31.690)

Hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:32.091)

You know what I mean?

Unknown Speaker (01:43:33.070)

Or, or how often confessions happened.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:35.390)

Totally. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:35.791)

Because people just knew-

Unknown Speaker (01:43:37.150)

Yeah, exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:38.011)

... "I wrote this down accidentally."

Unknown Speaker (01:43:39.251)

Yeah. "Oh, fuck, I fucked up." You know? Like-

Unknown Speaker (01:43:41.070)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:41.091)

... I would like a, I would like a numerical, like, "Oh,

Unknown Speaker (01:43:44.291)

shit, the worst thing that ever happened for crime was the invention of email."

Unknown Speaker (01:43:47.591)

Hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:47.930)

You know? That would be a fun lesson.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:49.591)

I assume that, uh, if that doesn't exist already, someone could probably get a, a graduate degree-

Unknown Speaker (01:43:55.011)

Totally. I bet-

Unknown Speaker (01:43:55.970)

... based on this, uh...

Unknown Speaker (01:43:56.270)

Yeah. Yeah. I bet there is a, there is a PhD out there for you.

Unknown Speaker (01:43:59.650)

Yeah. So take it.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:00.591)

(laughs) Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:00.650)

Enjoy.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:00.970)

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:01.671)

Someone go get your law degree-

Unknown Speaker (01:44:02.850)

Go for it.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:03.551)

... based on that.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:03.570)

Yeah, yeah. You won.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:04.791)

Um, so yeah, that, uh, brings us to the end of this. It's a l- it's, um... You know, obviously there's the, uh,

Unknown Speaker (01:44:10.850)

compare and contrast aspects with this and InfoWars depositions.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:14.570)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:15.171)

Uh, but I still think there's... You know, there's a lot of value

Unknown Speaker (01:44:17.631)

to it, even though it's not, uh, one of our main characters or...

Unknown Speaker (01:44:21.310)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:21.791)

Uh, I think this still has a lot of, a lot of resonance.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:24.890)

No, I really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it, 'cause this, again, this improves my depositions for later.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:30.251)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:30.631)

I'm, I'm, I'm gonna be a master at this.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:32.331)

Your danger room, uh... (laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:44:33.390)

Oh, man. I have, I have no fear of a deposition anymore.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:37.551)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:38.030)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:44:38.371)

Well, on that note, uh,

Unknown Speaker (01:44:40.331)

we'll be back. Uh, but till then-

Unknown Speaker (01:44:41.831)

(laughs)

Unknown Speaker (01:44:42.051)

... we have a website.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:43.190)

Indeed, we do. It's knowledgefight.com.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:44.890)

Yep. We'll be back. But until then, I'm Neo, I'm Leo, I'm DZX Clark. I am the mysterious professor.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:49.490)

Woo. Yeah. Woo. Yeah. Woo.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:52.411)

And now, here comes w- the sex robots.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:54.711)

Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks for holding.

Unknown Speaker (01:44:58.131)

Hello, Alex. I'm a first-time caller. I'm a huge fan. I love your work.

Unknown Speaker (01:45:01.990)

I love you.