Transcript/538: March 2, 2021

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N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N-Knowledge Fight
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Damn, Ed, Jordan, I am sweating
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Knowledgefight.com, it's time to pray
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I have great respect for Knowledgefight
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Knowledgefight
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I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys
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Saying we are the bad guys
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Knowledgefight
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Dan and Jordan
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Knowledgefight
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Riddle her, riddle her, riddle her
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I need, I need money
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Riddle her, riddle her, riddle her
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Andy and Kansas
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Andy and, Andy, stop it
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Andy and, Andy and Kansas
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Andy, Andy, it's time to pray
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Andy and Kansas, you're on the air, thanks for holding us
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Hello Alex, I'm a first time caller, I'm a huge fan
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I love your work
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Knowledgefight
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N-N-N-N-N-N-Knowledgefight.com
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I love you
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Hey everybody, welcome back to Knowledgefight, I'm Dan
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I'm Jordan
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We're a couple dudes, like to sit around, drink novelty beverages and talk just a little bit
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about Alex Jones
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Oh indeed we are Dan
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Jordan
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Dan
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Jordan
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Blackjack
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Oh
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Did I win?
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No
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Oh okay
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That's not how this works
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Then I have a quick question for you
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Yeah
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What's your bright spot?
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Blackjack, I've been playing a lot of online blackjack lately
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Oh well that works
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No
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That makes things much easier
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I guess it's kind of related to that, but that was a joke
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I guess one of my bright spots I think is kind of like, I'm starting to forgive myself
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for enjoying video games
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I like that
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Like we talk about, you know, some games we're playing every now and again in these bright
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spots
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Sure
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You know, I've started to recognize some of these like unexamined biases I have towards
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myself for liking video games
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Okay
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You know, and like growing up they were so, like my parents were very against video games
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like you play
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Sure
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You play half an hour a day
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You just keep on, yeah
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Then I'm gonna throw that thing out the window
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Totally, totally
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And there was, you know, it's always been like something that you could be doing something
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better than that
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And I think I have a little bit of self-appointed stigma about it
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And I'm starting to feel a little bit less that way
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Yeah
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And I think part of that is just like I'm recognizing there are a lot of really good
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video games that are a lot of fun and
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Yeah
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I don't know, taking away a little bit of that shame is good
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Yeah, no that's great because I've always had that same experience that even if you
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classify it as like a complete leisure activity you should be doing better leisure activities
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You know, like, oh you're playing a video game as a leisure activity, what you should
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be doing is going out to a park
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Yeah
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And throwing the ball around and it's like I get that and sometimes I do
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I got a video game for you, it's called The Museum, get over that
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Yeah, exactly
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Yeah, there's a lot of that
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Yeah
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I don't know, I think it's good to retain a little bit of it lest I descend into only
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one
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No, no, no, for sure, you can go far, you can go too far with anything
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I'm finding a balance, anyway, what about you?
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I like it
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Dan, there's a new Mogwai album out, Dan, and that is important to me
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Don't feed that album after midnight
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Alright, okay, Dan
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No, it's really interesting to me that there's a new album all the way in 2021 because I
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think the first time I saw them live was in 2001 and they've been putting out music since
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the late 80s, but it's Mogwai, so it's not like the Rolling Stones are those old bands
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of like 70 year olds who are still touring, it's weird post-rock, so everybody who goes
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is like, I wanna hear your new shit, post-rock all sounds basically the same
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I have an interesting confession to make
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What's that?
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I know nothing about Mogwai
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You don't know anything about Mogwai?
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No
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Oh shit, Mogwai is one of the most important, first off, Scottish bands there's ever been
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and second, Mogwai helped create the entire genre of post-rock as we know it
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Yeah, this is a big blind spot for me, clearly, because you could have told me they were metal
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or folk, and I wouldn't have believed either
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Well, now let me tell you something about post-rock, Dan
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Oh, no
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There are elements of metal and folk that have been applied
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Goddammit
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And they have wound up influencing other...
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It's only fair that I sit through this music lecture because I got a lot to get through
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in terms of Professor Dan today, so
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Fair enough, okay
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Jordan, today we have an interesting episode to go over, I think there's a lot of in's
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and out's, a lot of twists and hoo-boy
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But before we get down to business on that, let's take a little moment to say thank you
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to some folks who have signed up and are supporting the show
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I think that's a great idea
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So first, Nick, and this is spelled N-I-K, thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thanks, Nick
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Thank you
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Next, Keely, thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thanks, Keely
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Next, SpunglodorfEnemy, thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thank you very much, however, you are also my enemy, for I am Spunglodorf
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Oh no
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Next, thank you to Eviscerated by a Reptoid Over Cadbury Eggs, thank you so much, you
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are now a policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thank you very much, vision of all of our fates
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Next, Dante H, thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk
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I'm a policy wonk
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Thanks, Dante
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Thank you, and finally, I'd like to say thank you to a technocrat out there, actually it's
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two people split into technocrats, so maybe they're both, ah, who knows
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We'll see
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Anyway, Matt and Bin, thank you so much, you are now a technocrat, or technocrats, you
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decide
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I'm a policy wonk
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Crikey mate, that's fantastic, have yourself a brew
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How's your 401k doing, bro?
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Alright, we gotta go full tilt boogie on this Watson, alright?
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Let's just get down to business, we ain't making that money off that heroin, why you
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pimps so good?
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My neck is freakishly large, I declare info war on you
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Thank you so much, Matt and Bin
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Yes, thank you very much to the both of you
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And Jordan, we got a little bit of a special occasion to celebrate today
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Did we?
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Yep, it's Mogwai's birthday
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Oh no, oh shit, somebody fed him after midnight
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No, no, we got a special birthday shout out going out to Easter, happy birthday out there
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The holiday of Easter?
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No, a person by the name of Easter
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Oh, Astarte, the Sumerian god of, ooh, nope
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Maybe, no, but I am excited that Easter candy is starting to show up
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Oh man
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At the Walgreens and what have you
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I do appreciate that
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Very pumped
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Reese's peanut butter eggs are put out there, February 15th, baby
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I like those, the eggs, the hard shelled eggs, the mini eggs, those are the best
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Those are fantastic
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Holy shit, they're so good
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No, they're incredible
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So anyway, happy birthday, Easter, I hope you enjoy some Easter candy
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Yes, please
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And everybody's doing well
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Yeah, the thing that I, it's terrible, but my partner is allergic to peanuts
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And so I have to hoard Reese's peanut butter eggs and eat them like a squirrel before I
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get home
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Yeah
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And then like mouthwash and brush my teeth, but Dan, they're worth it
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I'm going to get you some Reese's almond butter eggs
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How dare you, sir
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Not quite the same
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No
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So Jordan, we didn't have an episode on Friday and in the interest of full transparency,
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I want to discuss what happened
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Essentially that video of Alex saying that he wished he'd never met Trump threw me into
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a complete tailspin, but not for the reason that people who listen to our show or who
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don't listen to our show might think
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Of course
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I was flooded by messages and comments from people wanting our take on it, so naturally
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I sat down to digest this footage.
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In the name of being able to have a conversation that the audience can understand, let's listen
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to that clip now all together
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Part of me, the selfish part, wishes I'd never met Donald Trump, wishes that I'd never met
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Roger Stone, because unlike previous things I'd done that were game changing, those were
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just time space continuum reflections of the third big change I was going to be involved
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in
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And that was bringing Donald, John Trump into Austin
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I'm just going to say it again, I said Austin into office
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Because this is, you guys are actually really good questions, this is going to be a really
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good thing, but I'm going to say it again in a minute
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It's the truth, I'm just going to say it, that I wish I never would have fucking met
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Trump
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I wish it never would have happened, and it's not that the attacks I've been through, I'm
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so sick of fucking Donald Trump man, God I'm fucking sick of him
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And I'm not doing this because it's like I'm kissing his fucking ass, you know, it's like
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I'm sick of it
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Do it in a minute
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To people unfamiliar with Alex Jones or the right wing media sphere, this probably sounds
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like a huge, huge deal
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Here's Alex on film saying that he's sick of Trump and wishes he'd never met Trump or
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Roger Stone
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To anyone who's listened to our show regularly, this probably was less shocking
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Though Alex has created a personality cult around Trump that he's inexorably tied to,
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he also frequently lashes out at Trump and the people in Trump's orbit when things don't
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go his way
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There was the classic case of his breakdown after Trump bombed Syria in April 2018
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I mean, you know, like Trump said, Hillary and Obama created ISIS
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Well, but, but, but, but, but Trump, it's Barack Trump
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Trump uses it like a prophylactic, he just shoves ISIS up his big dirty asshole
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Apologizes to TV stations
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Yeah, and then, you know, he said even more
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Here's the news Trump, I'm not dog crap on shoes, brother
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You are crap on my shoes, you son of a bitch
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You will freaking get it, get ready
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And of course the whole part where Alex yelled fuck Trump a bunch that day before he realized
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he was streaming live
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Well there's that
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When the fuck are we going live, I can't do this shit anymore
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Fuck Trump and fuck these fucking people
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At a certain point, man, I'm sick of all you fucking liberals and mainland, you're a bunch
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of cowardly fucks, you're not Americans
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What's going on?
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Okay, should we shut these feets down and delete those?
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Just shut those feets down and restart them, okay?
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Better shut that down
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Yeah, no one will ever know about this
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No, no, no, no
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So that stream included Alex accusing Trump of betraying his family and talking about
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how ashamed he was of Trump and of supporting him
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Things got so out of hand, Owen Schroyer had to try to stop the show, because Alex was
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swearing so much and they were out of delay, so they couldn't bleep things
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Maybe you should shut it down, we're out of delay
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I see that, I see that, they were on TV
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I see that
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it's been made clear
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It's so fucking clear right now, Owen
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Yeah, that was a tough drunk night for Alex
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We did a whole episode about that night, so if you want to hear about that in greater
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detail, it's episode 150
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But the thing is, that night is not at all an isolated incident
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Alex very regularly blows up at Trump, and the reason is pretty obvious
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Trump doesn't actually care about what Alex thinks,
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but Alex's business model has relied on him claiming that Trump does
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When Trump's public actions contradict the version of reality that Alex has painted on
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his show, the only response Alex can have is to portray it as betrayal
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The alternative is to admit that you were either conned, or that you were aware that
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Trump was full of shit and you were helping him con your audience,
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neither of which are acceptable for Alex's brand
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Yeah, they don't come off in a positive light no matter how you try and spin them
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The same thing happened during Alex's March 2019 Ask Me Anything stream that he did,
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which happened after Facebook had purged more accounts that Alex and Infowars ran,
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and just after Rogan did an episode with Jack Dorsey, where Alex's Twitter ban was discussed
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Alex was really raw about how Trump wasn't helping him get it back on social media,
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and he expressed that inaction on Trump's part has made him turn against him
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Trump has all the power in his hands, and he's done a lot of good things,
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but the fact that he doesn't to these other decentralizations shows that
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at the end of the day he's an establishment type person, and so he should be abandoned
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And I'm not happy about that because I've been persecuted for supporting Trump
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But, you know, my gut is like ready to pull away, but then there's like a left,
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and they are. I don't want to abandon Trump because of them.
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They didn't run me off Trump. They didn't make me turn against Trump.
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Trump made me turn against Trump. And so it doesn't matter if Trump is this great thing,
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it's that if he's going against that we have to turn against him.
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So some of these clips might be a little obscure
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Sure. And, you know, they haven't been seen by multitudes of people,
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so it could be argued that Alex said these things in
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unseen areas of the internet were only weirdos like me look on.
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True.
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Unfortunately, Alex has literally also said that he hates Trump more than Hillary
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when he was a guest on Joe Rogan's show.
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I don't dislike Donald Trump, and I think he's done some good things on trying to do peace
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and trying to get jobs back to America, but I hate Donald Trump
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because I got behind him because I knew Hillary was bad.
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And then he became my identity. He's not a bad guy.
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But the truth is, I hate him more than Hillary Clinton
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because he's who I am now and whatever he does is who I am.
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I'm not with Donald Trump. I'm with America and freedom and everything else.
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And I'm not throwing him under the bus to get George Soros on my back,
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though they're already after me for the reasons I'm with them.
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So I'm not against even Trump, but I get in a fight like this that's so dumbed down
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that then no matter what I do, they take my radicalness, my weirdness to hurt Trump.
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But then all it does is like radioactively attack me.
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I don't know how to describe it, but it's like it's like Trump is breaking my legs every day.
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And it's not like I'm not willing to go through the pain,
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except a lot of what he says I don't agree with.
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And he's not my identity.
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Sandy Hook's not my identity.
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This is just you're talking from your own personal perspective.
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And I appreciate that, that he's not your,
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I don't know how many people actually think that he's your identity.
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Me.
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Me!
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You might notice that in these clips I've played,
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you know, there are instances that Alex is clearly intoxicated on air.
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I was about to say, Dan, there are very similar speech patterns and yeah.
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That's something of a theme.
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And it's something that seems also to be related to the clip that was released by Hatewatch.
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The clip of Alex saying that he's sick of Trump that we played at the beginning.
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Yeah, and you can argue in vino veritas if you would like, but...
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I'm not gonna even get into any of that.
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Exactly.
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Alex definitely seems drunk in that clip, and that makes sense.
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But the thing is, this is not a behavior that's exclusive to when he's clearly fucked up.
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In late January 2019, Alex was getting deeply frustrated with being associated with Trump,
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at least partially because fundraising for Roger Stone's legal defense was cutting into his profits.
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I've got all these employees and all this crew and I've got all my lawsuits I'm fighting
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that are way more money than Roger's paying.
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It's not some competition here, but I'm kind of fighting a two-front war with Roger
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because Infowars has become a platform to sit there and promote fundraising for
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his issues when I gave Roger a job here, which is great, and he's paid.
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And then it also becomes this split where we may not get the funds to fund Infowars
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because the 24-7 Roger Stone fundraising is people then split it and say, well,
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we'll just give him a donation instead of Infowars.
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I'm going to have a talk with him about that because we can win the battle, lose the war here
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because of that. So I hope people do support Roger, but Infowars has a bill,
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let's not exaggerate, at least 10 times what Roger Stone's is, okay?
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And he's bringing in as much money as we're bringing in right now.
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And that's great. That's all fine and dandy. I have 100 employees.
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I have all the bandwidth bills and all the equipment.
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And I sent security up with Roger and reporters up there that cost money. And so I'm not bitching
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or complaining. I'm going to have to make some decisions around here on a bunch of fronts about
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layoffs, laying Paul Watson off, laying Roger Stone off, people that are paid more around here.
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Alex is definitely more demonstrative and more gregarious, I guess, when he's fucked up,
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but he'll still venture into many outbursts against Trump like he did here in this segment
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he was doing on his, he did a big marathon in May, 2017. And he said this.
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And so the truth is Trump is the Johnson holster for the warmongering neocons and Democrats.
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Trump is the Johnson holster of the military industrial complex.
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And these are just clips about Trump. They're not even about the people
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associated with Trump, that Alex has gone back and forth on heroes to villains over and over again.
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The point I'm seeking to make here is that if you follow Alex, you know that him saying that
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he wishes he'd never met Trump while drunk in a controlled setting where editing is possible
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is not a bombshell. It's a good headline and it seems to have driven some traffic if my
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mentions are any gauge of that, but I'm not sure it's helpful. And the reason for this is
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three-pronged. The first is the fact that this is not a comment that's necessarily groundbreaking.
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Alex has said a lot of shit about Trump on his own show. The second piece is that literally
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nobody who listens to Alex Jones would care about a 90-second clip being reported on by
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the Southern Poverty Law Center's hate watch. No, no, no. They always check the SPLC to see
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whether or not they should trust people, right? I can personally respect the work that the SPLC
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does and acknowledge that they are an important entity, while at the same time saying with
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absolute certainty that no one who believes right-wing propaganda will respect or accept
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a report from the SPLC. A very basic piece of right-wing ideology is that the SPLC is a
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communist globalist front organization meant to launder money and demonize patriots who
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threaten the globalist establishment. Any report coming from that source is going to be seen
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basically like how normal people see a headline that comes from Glenn Beck. It's going to be
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ignored. I was going to say, it's like RT being like, Russia's not doing anything evil today.
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Okay. Presumably the people that this clip and things like it would be helpful for are people
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who suspect that Alex may be a valid source of information, and in terms of those people,
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they will not be reached by this reporting at all. That's not to say that the SPLC shouldn't
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do reporting like this, but the fact that only they have access to the underlying material,
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which we'll get into in a minute, makes this a little bit difficult to believe will help
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anybody that it could help. The people that this Hatewatch article appeals to are people who
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already think or know that Alex is full of shit. The third prong is that this basically just plays
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the same game that we've done so many times with Alex in the past. The response is predictable,
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and honestly, it's one that Alex comes out winning. On the evening of March 2nd,
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when this article on Hatewatch was released, Alex appeared on the War Room to discuss things,
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and it was honestly so formulaic that I probably could have written his response before listening
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to this episode. So here at the beginning of this is Owen introducing this headline and asking Alex
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about it. Okay. Alex, this is just... I just might as well bring this up to you because it's kind of
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funny. Is this the Daily Mail article where they say a Howard Stern puppet of me is real?
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No, no, that's a different one. This one just came out from the Southern Poverty Law Center.
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Oh, this is so ridiculous, especially when I work here and I know the true story and then to just
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read their lies. Alex Jones on leaked video, I wish I never met Trump. You can see there,
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calling it the Southern Poverty Hate Center, preemptively minimizing and deriding the headline
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and the source, that this isn't a big deal to Alex or Owen. The thing about Stern there was that
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apparently a Daily Mail article attributed words that an Alex impersonator said to being from Alex
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himself. It's difficult to tell though because what's apparently parody is indistinguishable
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from things Alex would say himself. From the article, quote, this is normalized mass
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extermination, a bio attack on humanity before the day of our Lord's birth in the name of the
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satanic pedophile globalist New World Order. They want forced inoculation of the Gates vaccine,
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which has the HIV delivery system gene coding. It has HIV in it. That's what happens when you
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defeat parody. When you finally won over, like SNL can't fucking touch you.
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No, I mean, that might have been said by a person doing an impression, but Alex has said all of
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those things. He literally said all those things. He could have been reading off of any episode
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transcript. Yeah, it could have been. No, no, no, not hard.
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Anyway, Alex is fixated on this detail for two reasons. First, it gives him a chance to try and
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wage a publicity campaign where he's able to see if he can get some cheap attention by yelling
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about a more popular broadcaster, in this case, Howard Stern. We're mere days away from Stern
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getting the sneaky snake treatment. Second, it distracts from the main point of that Daily
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Mail article, which was about how Alex had buzzed his ex-wife's house in a helicopter,
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which had terrorized their daughter. From the article, quote, in the video exclusively obtained
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by DailyMail.com, the couple's 12-year-old daughter is briefly seen waving before rushing
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over to her mother and screaming, it's scary, mom, it's scary. We try to stay out of Alex's
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personal life, but this incident seems like Alex being a real piece of shit. And he's focusing on
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this detail about the Stern character. It seems like a way to make the audience not even care to
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look at this article because it kind of makes them look like a real piece of shit. Yeah, yeah,
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and that's also another thing that's beyond parody. No good or reasonable human being would
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fucking fly by their own child with a helicopter. Wow.
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You've won. You've defeated me. That's ridiculous and evil.
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Yeah, yeah. So we now get to the formulaic defense, exactly what you would expect.
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Alex, so they're saying that it's a leaked footage from a documentary filmmaker that you paid
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on his film, even though that's not even accurate. We didn't pay him to make that,
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he did that on his own. Hold on, let me explain. Turns out those guys worked for Hope Not Hate,
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so they probably lost their ADL, you know, that whole group.
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Oh, there we go. They came to me and they said, we're making this documentary of Paul
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Watson, all these people that were here one day. They did the interview and they said,
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what's your feelings on Trump? And I said, well, it's devil's advocate. It's in the film.
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I said, part of me hates him. It destroyed my life. You know, it's terrible. I wish I would
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have met him, but I'm still glad I did it because overall, even though it's been painful, I always
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do that. You know, they always get me on that. So that's in a DVD we sell.
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So here you see the reason why this minute or so clip is not really threatening to Alex,
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at least in the eyes of his listeners. It was taken out of context, which is the standard
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excuse that everyone in the right wing media knows damn well they can use to get out of almost
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any situation. Really? I've never heard that before.
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It happens all the time because it's something that the audience has been trained to accept,
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particularly when the clip that's said to be out of context comes from a source that's been
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fully maligned, like the SPLC. The audience requires an answer for that clip because
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people are posting it around, which is delivered by Alex saying that it's out of context. That's
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enough. The audience does not then become curious about what the larger context is.
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Matter is just dead. Yep.
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And you know what? Alex is standing on slightly sturdier ground here than he
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normally is when he makes that claim. I went and I rewatched the full documentary
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called You Can't Watch This. And the part that that clip is in,
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part of it is in the movie. Here is that. It's not just me who's at risk.
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Part of me. The selfish part. Wishes I'd never met Donald Trump.
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Fantastic business. I don't know if you can see that thing right up here.
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We can. But it's doing great business. I hope your
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audience goes out and buys it as Christmas gifts and everything else. And I just want
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to finish by saying your reputation is amazing. I will not let you down. You will be very, very
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impressed, I hope. And I think we'll be speaking a lot.
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Being sucked into that whole vortex has, it was like selling your soul.
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Everything I did, everything I was, and everything I was trying to do at that point,
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didn't matter how diverse it was. It didn't matter how it was multifaceted. It all became
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that at that point. So Trump came to get my populist audience and then he did that.
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The Democrats saw it as a threat. They attacked it and said that I was Donald
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Trump thinking that would hurt him. It made Trump stronger. It made him win the election.
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And so they understand that Donald Trump is infamous and that I'm Donald Trump now.
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And it's like a ring of doom. We've been merged together into this,
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into this thing and they're obsessed with it. If I'd had a target on my back before,
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when I signed on to promote America's resurgence, to promote Donald Trump,
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all the attacks I'd been through before were like bootcamp. This was the real battle.
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And that's when it got crazy. The future definitely worries me.
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I left the beginning and end and just to show that that's where...
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It's unedited. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand.
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This introduces some really murky issues for me. If you listen to the clip that's included
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in the final product of the documentary, it's not really saying anything too different from
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what Alex is saying in the newly released clip. Yeah, I didn't know that that was in there and
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now I'm real not happy about this. They're both expressing a frustration
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with Trump, particularly around how the identity that Alex enjoyed prior to being associated with
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Trump has been swallowed up by this new image of him. Make no mistake though, he did create that
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image and he profits off it. No, I know.
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Don't feel too bad for him. No, I don't feel bad at all.
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I'm really frustrated because that does seem something like a very clear-eyed evaluation
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of how things have gone, which makes me think he's been listening to our show too much.
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Well, but that clip that's in the documentary is thematically the same as the only difference
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is that Alex seems to be a little more mad and he's having a little bit of an outburst.
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I just don't give a shit. Once you say someone shoved ISIS up their dirty asshole,
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of course I don't care. You've already said enough.
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It's tough to top that. Dan, if I told you,
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you shoved fucking the base up your dirty asshole, I don't think we would be going beyond that.
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We'd be like, we got it. If you're on stage and you say that,
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I'm giving you the light. Yeah, we got it guys.
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It's what's been said needed to be said and it's over.
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It's about time. Yeah.
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So the thing that I find fascinating here is that the clip that's in the documentary is actually a
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clearer articulation of Alex's feelings. Whereas the clip released by hate watch is interesting
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only because it appears to show a secret revelation and an emotional outburst.
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You can see emotional outbursts on Alex's show every day.
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And what Alex says there is far from a secret revelation.
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And ultimately here's one of the things that I'm really struggling with.
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As far as I can tell, as someone who watched the documentary and has watched Alex's show
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around the time that this documentary was being filmed,
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I do think that the clip is taking Alex out of context.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Alex was struggling with his identity at the time.
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According to hate watch, this documentary was filming in January 2019,
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which is exactly when Alex was spending a lot of time on air discussing his desire
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to get back to his roots and not be so singularly associated with Trump.
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Here is a clip from the January 28th, 2019 episode of his show,
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where Alex discusses how he doesn't just want to talk about Trump and Roger anymore
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and how the audience wants him to go back to his roots.
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I don't want to just cover Trump or Roger Stone, and I like Roger,
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but it's taken all the oxygen out of the room of all the incredible stuff going on around the world.
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I ran on the edge of war with Israel, what's happening in Venezuela,
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what Soros is saying, get ready for China to collapse, which I agree with.
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But that's only because Soros is jumping on the bandwagon.
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A lot of listeners love the show, but they also say, Alex,
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Alex, we want you to get back to secret society some and the globalist and the esoteric and
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weather modification, because the last three years, it's been all Trump all the time.
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And that's because we've been in an epic civil war with the globalist.
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It'll still be a lot of Trump here.
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It's just that I don't want to cover every facet of everything Trump does.
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Alex was feeling like his identity had been subsumed by the Trump.
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And you clearly was right.
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He was feeling right, totally.
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He was correctly feeling that.
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And he was feeling some kind of backlash from the audience over this.
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They were expressing that they weren't.
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There was some, whatever it was, maybe it's somebody who works at Infowars,
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maybe it was an outpouring of feedback from the audience.
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We miss Beck when you were fun.
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This is boring and one note.
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No, I know.
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And I feel like this is such a nothing, simply because it seems impossible to believe.
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It's impossible for me to believe that any right thinking person
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would look at the grifters and not think they all actually hate Donald Trump.
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Like when you saw, like in the campaign, in the primary, they all hate him.
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They all hate him, but it's just part of the game.
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He won the game and now they have to lick his boots.
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Any reasonable person would be like, yeah, of course Alex hates Donald Trump.
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Yeah, I think anybody except the most ambitious grifter would have seen that,
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like, okay, the money is following this.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And the most ambitious grifter would have probably, the bet might have paid off.
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Yeah, probably not.
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Maybe.
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It'd be a long bet.
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I don't know if anybody who's boosting Rand Paul is making a lot of money.
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I don't think so.
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Anybody who's stuck with Rand.
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I don't think so.
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So this was part of a larger period in time where Alex was really fucking tired
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of Roger's legal fund siphoning donations.
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But it's definitely this phase that he was in, you know, like that legal fees
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and this disillusionment with Trump and wanting to be who he used to be was going on in January 2019.
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Yeah.
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And if you pay attention to Alex and you were listening to it,
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you would know that this stemmed from Alex being mad at Trump
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for not declaring a national emergency to close our southern border.
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This was deep in the caravan propaganda cycle of 2019.
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So in Infowars world, Trump not declaring an emergency and seizing complete power
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was essentially him allowing all Americans to be murdered by MS-13.
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There you go.
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Which is hard to rationalize.
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Yeah.
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So Alex turned on Trump for a little while.
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That was a really rough situation for Alex because he had all but guaranteed
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that Trump was about to declare an emergency, as we can be heard here.
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Quite a time to be alive, my friends.
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Trump's going to declare a national emergency tonight.
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It's already been declared privately.
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And oh, I remember that one.
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I like private declarations.
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But also the looks on their faces.
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It's as if they're being led up before a firing squad.
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Or how about this clip?
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Mike Adams, incredible job.
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Naturalnews.com is on us tonight, seven o'clock central for coverage
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of Trump's epic declaration of emergency.
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As he says, we're in an emergency.
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I made to declare an emergency.
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Oh, he's going to declare it.
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Mike, thank you.
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We'll be right back.
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Stay with us.
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Or this one.
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Mike Adams, God bless you.
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Great job.
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You're joining us tonight.
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Seven o'clock central, 8 p.m.
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Eastern for the coverage of Trump declaring a national emergency.
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I don't know how all this is going to end, but if the globalists want to fight,
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they better believe they've got one.
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Yes.
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Here in January 2019, the migrant caravan fears were the biggest story in the right-wing media.
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And Alex had essentially gone all in and Trump declaring a national emergency to the point
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where you did a special evening stream to celebrate the declaration that didn't end up happening.
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Yep.
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That's fucking embarrassing.
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It's not good.
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And Alex was understandably a little bit raw about it after the fact.
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Now, I was going to come back in this segment and I was going to get to this later, but
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everybody knows my habit of mentioning something coming up and getting right into it.
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But when we come back, constitutional lawyer, really smart cookie, founder of Oath Keepers.
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Oath Cookie is going to be joining us.
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But here's the bottom line.
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And he's a constitutional lawyer.
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Yale for his writings, of course, worked for Ron Paul.
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Smart guy.
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He concurs with me with what I've said.
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Trump essentially is no longer the president.
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He has advocated his responsibility.
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He's he's signing it away.
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He's let a group of people around him tell him that he can't fire the head of the Federal
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Reserve, which he can do in the code.
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So this is one of the things that makes a clip like this.
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Really, it's incredibly difficult to understand without a nuanced understanding of Alex's
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propaganda and the context that the things are set in.
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Alex saying that he's sick of Trump is attention grabbing, but it's completely in line with
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what he was saying on air around this time.
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And we were talking about back then.
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Yeah.
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Alex was sick of his identity being associated solely with Trump, which he expresses more
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coherently in the take that they actually use in the documentary.
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Alex has said way worse things about Trump on his show.
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Like before deciding to support him for president back in 2015, Alex would regularly talk about
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how Trump was a front man for the mob.
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You go and you show at the university four or five palace size houses, 40 million, 13
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million, you name it.
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You say, is this Donald Trump's?
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Everybody thinks he's the richest guy.
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The guy's literally nothing.
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Kind of just a front man for some consortiums on the East coast.
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I'll leave it at that.
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Oh yeah.
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Trump's piece of work, folks.
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And they go in there.
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It's just mind blowing.
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I don't even know what to say anymore.
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And like he did this a lot.
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Yep.
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Donald Trump owns a bunch of casinos.
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Donald Trump's involved in a bunch of stuff.
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He's basically a front man for some very hardcore people.
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And he gives tons of money to the democratic party, more to Democrats than Republicans
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in the last 30 years.
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So you can bet this is all as phony as a $3 bill.
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And Donald Trump, I have it from high level sources, uh, is, uh, well, let's just say
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with a name like Trump, they don't come after you with a name like Carleone.
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Don Trump will be back.
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Stay with us.
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I'm Alex Jones.
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You want the truth?
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Can you handle it?
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You're going to get it.
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Ha ha.
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Yeah.
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So this is the reality of a clip like the one released by hate watch.
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It's Schrodinger's clip.
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It's simultaneously in and out of context.
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Yeah.
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I do believe that it captures a sincere moment of frustration where Alex is pissed off about
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how pigeonholed he's become as a Trump cheerleader.
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But I don't think that the moment means anything outside of exciting people who already don't
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like Trump or Alex.
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Yeah.
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For me, this falls into about the same heading as that Bon Iver parody song that was made
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about Alex.
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It feels like an attack, but in reality it just plays directly into his hands.
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Yep.
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Consider this.
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I hate Alex Jones.
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I've done a podcast about how full of shit he is for over four years.
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And when I heard him respond to this clip by saying that it's out of context, I don't
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think he's totally wrong.
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The hate watch article doesn't discuss the other version of this clip that appears in
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the documentary, nor does it address what was going on in the world around the time
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that the documentary was filmed that could have contributed to what their readers were
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seeing.
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From my perspective, these are important aspects to understanding that clip.
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Because without knowing what was going on, it's really easy to see that clip and make
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up your own story in your mind about what Alex, you know, when he says, I'm so fucking
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sick of Trump, like he wished he'd never met him.
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You can come up with your own explanation of what that means.
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And it's not, it's pretty clear if you know what was going on, what he means by that.
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No, I, I tweeted out immediately cause I got all those.
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I got all those too.
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I tweeted out immediately.
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I was like, this is just an ad for Alex and the filmmaker.
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That's what it is.
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And it's not, it's just because, God damn it, Dan, how many times are we going to do
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this?
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I understand.
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And that's why, that's why this episode is going to be a little bit, you know, different
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is because the frustration of like, everybody wants us to cover these things that go viral.
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And we did three years ago.
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Now what's interesting though, too, is that like, this is a little bit different than
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those other instances, because this is a case where I do believe that it's in context in
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as much as it is a video that it doesn't have like a bunch of quick cuts.
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It is Alex saying I'm fucking sick and tired of Trump.
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You know, it is that it is also devoid of the surrounding context that could be accessed.
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I mean, just by listening to his show.
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Yeah.
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Well, I mean, there's a certain part of me that's not, it's defensible.
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Yeah.
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Just because, look, you shouldn't, I mean, it's not, you shouldn't be paying attention
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to that world, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to say that it's, it's, it's hard to
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pay, you don't, it's hard to pay as much attention to it as we do.
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Yeah.
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And that's something that, you know, we constantly have to check ourselves on in terms of being
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like, how can you possibly not be aware of this completely sensible thing to not be aware
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of?
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And there's absolutely value in taking something that otherwise people wouldn't know.
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Right.
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And bringing it out to them.
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I get it.
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Sure.
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There are tons of people who don't pay attention to Alex and just know of him.
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I'm sure it's a very valuable thing for them to, to know.
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Also, he's full of shit on this, you know?
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And if they didn't know that and now they do, that's a net positive.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So this is where we get to why we didn't have an episode on Friday.
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When I was exploring some of these ideas and listening to this clip and what have you,
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I realized that covering Alex's response to it would be unsatisfying.
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I didn't want to do an episode where we look at this and then just say that Alex said that
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the clip that was released was out of context.
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And the best I can say is kind of.
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Yeah.
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I felt like that feels way too close to defending Alex.
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Yeah, no, we don't need, we don't need that at all.
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I felt like the best thing I could do is try something I've never tried before.
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And that was make some inquiries.
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I sent emails, made a bunch of phone calls and tried everything I could think of other
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than starting a social media pressure campaign, because I'm opposed to those.
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But I was trying to get access to the raw footage of this clip that Hate Watch had released,
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trying to see where it came from, see what the surrounding discussion was around that.
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Of course.
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What happened after Alex walked off camera, as he does at the end of that clip?
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Did he immediately clarify himself or did he sit down and say stuff that made it clear
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that what he meant is that he fucking personally hates Donald Trump as a human and that he's
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connected to the mob?
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I felt unable to wrestle with this clip fully without the surrounding context, because to
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me, this was a headline being presented without a body of text.
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Yeah, Dan, we don't, in our world, headlines being their own story is not good.
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That's what Alex does.
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Exactly.
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No one at the SPLC or Hate Watch returned my calls or emails and my press request went
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unanswered.
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It's hard to believe that they wouldn't suddenly drop everything for a podcast.
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Look, dude, I understand people are busy and not everyone's aware of us, so I don't take
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it personally or anything.
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I completely understand and I'm not shitting on anybody.
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I just am saying this to say I tried to get access to this and I failed.
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I don't know.
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I take it a little personally.
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Well, you can, because that's your role.
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I do.
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I take it a little bit personally.
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I find it, I just find it a little bit frustrating that if you're reporting on Alex Jones, you
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can't find the only podcast about him.
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It's great.
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It seems easy to find.
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What's great is that I put in all the effort and then you get to be mad that it didn't
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work out.
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What?
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Okay, okay.
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Are you gonna play the victim for being a better person than me?
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No, I just think it's fine.
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So I did see, however, that the producer of the documentary that the clip is from, who
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gave the footage to Hate Watch, had replied to a tweet from one of our listeners that
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indicated that he would be willing to come on our show.
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So, typically, when things like this happen, I ignore them.
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I don't have a lot of interest in doing an interview with someone who comes from the
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worlds that we cover, since I have a default position of distrust and skepticism towards
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them, and I'm not particularly drawn toward making a show where me and a propagandist
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yell at each other incoherently.
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And I don't think I can interview him because I'm famous for saying, cut his dick off
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to Roger Stone, so that would make things a little bit adversarial.
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So I wasn't convinced that I should interview him, and you were strongly opposed, so I
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figured a middle ground would be to reach out to him and see if he was open to letting
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us review the larger context of the clip that was released.
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I made guarantees to everyone that I spoke to that I would respect the right of Hate
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Watch's reporting, and I wouldn't scoop them by releasing clips that they may or may
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not be working on for future stories.
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The documentarian, Kalen Robertson, said that he gave the footage to Hate Watch, but would
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come on the show to discuss what it was like to work with Alex.
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I responded by asking if there was an exclusivity situation with Hate Watch, at which point
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he stopped responding.
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It's entirely possible that he saw me as someone just out to get the footage to create
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clickbait and undermine whatever plans there may or may not be for releasing things.
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He doesn't know me at all, and I can't begrudge someone being careful about who they
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would trust online, so this didn't seem too strange to me.
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I think I moderated my tone, but honestly, I might have come off as a little thirsty
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for the footage.
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Maybe.
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It's really hard to tell how your tone works.
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I mean, you are a little thirsty for the footage, so...
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I was interested, sure.
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I mean, if it's there, I want to see it.
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Well, yeah, I understand.
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Yeah.
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As Wednesday became Thursday, I realized that we needed to record an episode, that a lot
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of the audience expected that we would be covering that clip that Hate Watch released,
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and that without the larger footage, I didn't have much to bring to the table past saying
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there's a larger context, Alex is still an asshole who lies about everything, but there's
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nuance here that might have been missed.
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Yeah.
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I didn't know what to do, but at that point, I still thought there was a chance that someone
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would get back to me.
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COVID is a total pain in the ass, so I could understand the bureaucracy at the SPLC and
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Hate Watch being slowed down a little bit, so maybe I'd hear back on Thursday or Friday,
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and thus, I decided to punt to Monday to make the best episode we could.
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That was the plan.
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But here we are on Sunday, and no one's responding.
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And there's not much to say other than that the SPLC is bad now, Dan.
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Since I didn't have the raw footage, I felt like I was at a dead end.
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That said, I'd already thought a lot about this clip, and I had some things I wanted
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to say about it, so we have to do this episode.
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I decided to rewatch You Can't Watch This and jot down some questions that I would-
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Whoa, whoa, whoa.
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How?
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I could watch it.
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Turns out.
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I wanted to jot down some questions that I would like to ask Kalyn Robertson to see where
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I would take a theoretical future interview.
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Sure.
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As I watched through that lens, a ton of questions came to mind, particularly about the state
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of mind one is in while creating clearly full of shit propaganda documentaries that feature
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only the opinions of extreme lunatics like Alex Jones, Tommy Robinson, Laura Loomer,
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and Gavin McGinnis.
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Right, as well as, I believe, Wile E. Coyote.
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I got into this idea, so early on Friday, I sent Kalyn another message explaining the
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reasoning for my wanting the raw footage to better understand the context.
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I also said that if that wasn't possible, I still might want to chat, and that if he
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was interested, I could email over some questions, he could decide whether or not he wanted to
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participate.
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I had absolutely no interest in blindsiding anybody, and I felt like he could see the
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questions, get the tone of what I was looking for, and decide whether or not he wanted to
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participate.
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I did not send him the questions, though, to be fair.
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I get you.
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I'm just saying that might sound a little bit thirsty.
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You know, if you're on a dating app and you don't get a response for a day and then you
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come back with, I might answer questions.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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There is definitely a reason I didn't send another message after this one.
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I'm also not interested in harassing somebody, and I felt like another unanswered message
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in this chain would look a way that I have to...
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It might be your trouble.
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I have to look in the mirror, and I don't think I can handle being the guy who keeps
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sending messages.
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Yeah, that could be trouble.
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Yeah.
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It dawned on me that I knew very little about this guy, Kalyn Robertson.
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I pay attention to the right-wing media, but he's a behind-the-scenes guy, and his only
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direct association with Alex was in this film, You Can't Watch This, which didn't impress
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me much, and didn't cause a big splash when it came out.
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The Hatewatch piece says that Robertson has disavowed the far right, and told Hatewatch
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he's working to undo the damage he did while producing propaganda for extremists such as
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Jones.
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That's good, but words like, quote, producing propaganda for extremists like Jones are
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the kind of words that make me curious.
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What other sorts of extremists are we talking about here?
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Yeah, you know, I read that line, and my immediate thought was, tell me exactly how he is disavowing
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and improving from there.
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Right.
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Give me line by line, do not tell me that he told you he was disavowing the far right,
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and you took him at face value.
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I started poking around, and this dude's fingerprints are on so many of the side characters we've
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discussed on this show.
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He used to work at Rebel Media, he did extensive work with Tommy Robinson, he directed two
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flagrantly racist and intentionally manipulative documentaries with Lawrence Southern, and
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perhaps most interestingly, he was the uncredited, but at very least cameraman and probably editor
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or director of Stefan Molyneux's film, The Hundred Year March, a Philosopher in Poland.
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Famous for his declaration of, I am a white nationalist.
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Empirically.
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Empirically, I am a white nationalist.
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We covered that entire documentary, and you can find it, it's episode 285 of our podcast.
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But not only does Robertson boast this impressive list of right-wing shithead credentials, he
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also went along on that trip that Lawrence Southern and Stefan Molyneux took to New Zealand
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in 2018, and even spoke prior to their talks after screaming his very racist film Farmlands,
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which argues that black South Africans are trying to kill all the white farmers there.
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Here's a little clip of him giving a speech.
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Hello, my name is Caelan Robertson and I co-produced Farmlands with my colleague George
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Ewell and John, and of course Lawrence Southern.
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Obviously this was an incredibly challenging process to put together, it was highly emotional
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as a subject, and obviously very very intensely serious as a subject, which meant that it
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had to be told in the right way, and the stories of these people are so powerful that it had
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to be told properly.
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It had to be told properly.
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Now, we'll get back to that in a second, but in case you're interested, here's what Stefan
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was talking about that evening.
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Let's hear it.
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Pull up, I really agree with it, but you know, I'm open, data, you know, let's find out.
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So we started researching into average culture.
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Sir, this plane is going down, this plane is going down, sir.
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It's, well, you'll see.
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But it's important, it's important because I want to sort of make a philosophical argument,
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of course, about two cultures.
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Obviously there's the European Western culture, the white culture, and then there's the
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Aborigine culture, and there was a collision, one-one, and then you get a powerful culture
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and civilization and glowing cities of light and rising out of the very desert itself,
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and another lost.
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And then, like, in general, cultures that lose, they either vanish or they turn into
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guilt-tripping manipulators to extract the giant red vending machine called white guilt.
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Wow, cool stuff, cool stuff.
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Boy, I want him to get collisioned.
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Quick reminder that this is in New Zealand, and also that the Christchurch shooter donated
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money to Stefan Molyneux and was a big fan of Lauren Southern, and named his manifesto
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The Great Replacement, which is the conspiracy about white genocide that Lauren Southern's
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movies are based on, which were directed by Kaelan Robertson.
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So, real quick, back to that clip I played of Kaelan's speech.
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Well, it's a good thing he told people that he disavowed that.
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He said in that speech in New Zealand that he was covering this very sensitive topic
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about the South African farmers, so it was crucial to tell their stories properly.
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Well, about that, in a very interesting review of Lauren Southern's article, she said that
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Lauren Southern's other film, Borderless, the YouTube commentator Jose brought up a
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very interesting problem about how farmland told the stories of these farmers.
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Here's a little clip from Jose's video titled The Many Lies of Borderless.
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Towards the end of the video, I highlighted one of Lauren's major works, and that's
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the movie Farmlands, a movie that advanced the racist conspiracy theory that black South
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Africans were out to kill white farmers, fueled by some sort of racial animosity that's
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ginned up by South African politicians.
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In that movie, a woman named Janine Eichenfeldt had the gruesome details of her father's
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murder used to advance said racist conspiracy theory.
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I mentioned that I didn't believe Janine was a willing participant in this, evidenced
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by the selective editing of her interview.
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In an interview of May 2019, Eichenfeldt told Ariel Levy, writing for The New Yorker, that
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she had been interviewed under a false premise.
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Here's a quote.
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I felt exploited. Another farmer phoned me to say he's got this Canadian chickie doing
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a documentary about the drought.
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Can you bring her to me?
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Hence, I was in my farm boots and my shorts to go and show them the effect of the drought
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on the farm, and Lauren sat down and said,
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Tell me about your dad.
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Completely caught me off guard.
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This is a shocking revelation because it's not something that can possibly happen by
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accident.
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It's the result of a conscious decision to mislead interview subjects and exploit what
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they tell you by taking it out of context to further the conclusion you want your propaganda
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to arrive at.
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The behavior precludes good faith.
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There's just no way around that.
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No, it's not possible.
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As it turns out, this is not the only way in which Farmlands, the documentary directed
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by Caitlin Robertson, failed to tell the woman's story properly.
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In reality, her father was killed, and that is a tragedy, but the film fails to explain
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the details of the crime because they want to use it as a prop to make the argument that
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white farmers are being targeted for genocide by black South Africans.
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Her father was killed by a guy who had been working on his farm.
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Five days prior, this man had stabbed his girlfriend, who was a person of color, to
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death and was chased by police but not apprehended.
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He went to this woman's father's farm, killed him and robbed his house and was subsequently
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arrested and is now serving a 30-year sentence in jail.
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This is a case of a double murder, and it's sad and an awful crime, but it's not an act
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of racial hate towards white farmers, which is what Caitlin's film portrays it as.
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This isn't telling the story properly, it's creating a fake version of a South African
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woman's pain to exploit to further a racist narrative, and then it's further gaslighting
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an audience in New Zealand while doing audience warm-up for a guy who decided to be a white
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supremacist because less of them booed his dumb ass.
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No, no, no, no, Dan, it's great.
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Look, I get it, but he told the SPLC that he disavowed that, and he gave them some footage
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of Alex that everybody's already seen before.
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So he's repented.
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I'm struggling, I'm really struggling.
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Over the course of the weekend, I watched and read everything that was available to
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be found and created about or created by Caitlin Robertson, because this picture was just giving
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me trouble.
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I was confused, it was accidental going down this road, but I was interested and I was
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confused.
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Wow, you know what, and look, this is by no means retaliation.
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I know because we've talked about this every step of the way, but you should have given
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us that fucking footage, dude.
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No, no, I understand, I understand.
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I think it's funny you saying that, but...
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No, we've talked about this extensively.
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Believe me, that is not your motivation whatsoever.
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The more I watched of his work, the more I didn't like him at all.
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But the more I watched his interviews, the more I kinda liked him.
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He's an immensely charming person, and that charisma probably played no small part in
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his ability to rise to such a position of prominence among these right-wing grifters,
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for whom appearance is so critical.
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As well as getting them to say stuff.
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Perhaps.
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I mean, Louis Theroux is an incredibly charming person, and that's part of why his documentaries
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end up with people saying stuff that maybe they wouldn't in other contexts.
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Exactly. I don't know, I feel like he seems fun, interesting, and...
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He's the type of guy that the New Yorker would have written a glowing profile about.
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Totally.
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New Nazis, they dress different.
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Yeah, I would say so.
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Yeah.
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And I mean, I'm not even immune to it, like watching these interviews.
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Sure, no, you listen to it.
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A charming guy is a charming guy.
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There's not much you can do with that.
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And that's part of what made it so intriguing.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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It's like, what's going on here?
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This is fucked up.
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So, here we are in the present day, and Robertson has disavowed the errors of his ways from
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a few years ago, and he's trying to undo the damage he's done, and I do commend that.
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I do.
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I want to be very clear about that.
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I was curious about the stories of his path to redemption, so I decided to dig a little
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bit deeper and watch some of the more recent interviews that were available out there to
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try and get a sense of this.
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Yeah.
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You know, like, one of the things that I love the most about our podcast that unfortunately
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may be tainted now is that episode about Jessica Schaub, the crystal child, who...
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Someone informed me that she might not be as much of a wonderful success story as...
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God damn it.
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But I'm always looking for something like that.
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Of course.
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I'm always looking for something uplifting, because it's so much better than Alex's dumbass.
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Totally.
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No, and I think that's a great example, because I've thought about that one a lot.
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You know, my exuberance towards her escape was undeniable, but the more I've thought
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about that, the more I've just been like, you cannot take people at their word when
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they just say that they are disavowing stuff.
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And the reason that we do, the reason that we always do is because we want to believe
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that so hard.
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Yeah.
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I want to believe this guy, like the reason that I'm so against believing that this guy
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is disavowed is because I know I want to.
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Yeah.
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Because I know that provides hope for me for my fucking family.
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That provides hope for me for so many other people.
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Look, you can come back.
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Yeah.
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And so I am not going to trust anybody.
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Yeah.
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And that also is what makes, like, I'm struggling with the idea that it feels like we might
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be attacking him or something because I don't want to attack the idea that it's possible.
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Sure.
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For your family or for people around you.
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Sure.
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I'm just curious and I want to deal with reality on reality's terms.
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Right.
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And I, you know, the way that I talk, of course, everything I say is, uh, sounds like an attack,
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but what I'm trying to express in my dumb way is that he has earned where he is.
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He's earned where he got to.
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And if you want to go somewhere else, you have to earn it.
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And those, maybe they don't have to be equal, but I'll tell you that given a few clips to
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the SPLC is not earning your way out of being the shit bag that you were.
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Right.
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A couple of important points.
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One, that's not for us to determine.
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And you can have your feeling and you're entitled to your feeling, but we are not the judges
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of this person.
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Absolutely not.
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Second, we cannot possibly know what he has done privately.
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Of course not.
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Like he doesn't owe anybody, uh, like us an apology and maybe he has made amends with
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folks behind the scenes privately.
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And I think that may be even more appropriate than anybody knowing exactly what he should
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be doing.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And we can't judge whether or not that's the case and I'm not sitting here saying he hasn't.
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I'm saying I'm struggling with this because I believe wholeheartedly in redemption.
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I believe wholeheartedly that people can make it out and oftentimes their stories on the
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other end can be very, um, uplifting and helpful for people.
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Yeah.
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I also don't think it's appropriate to pretend that this history isn't what it is.
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Exactly.
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Like the redemption needs to take stock of the professional career that beget the redemption.
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100 percent.
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And I was not convinced of that until I was watching this.
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And as I was looking at these, this story of, you know, the upliftingness, I was like,
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this doesn't make sense.
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There's something that doesn't match up.
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So the first thing that stuck out to me was an interview that Robertson did with a Muslim
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activist in the UK named Ali Dawah.
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Ali and Tommy's crew had a really high-profile run-in in the past, back in May of 2018, surrounding
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a rally that Tommy was throwing called Freedom Day.
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The event was supposed to be a free speech rally, so Ali requested to speak at the rally,
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since why wouldn't a free speech rally want to have everybody have speech?
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Oh, of course.
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Initially, Ali was told he could speak, but ultimately he wasn't allowed to, and he was
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harassed, threatened, and attacked by Tommy's fans at the event.
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This interaction between Ali and Kaylin in September 2019 is actually really fascinating
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for a number of reasons.
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The first is just the simple fact that these two people who were on opposite sides of things
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a little over a year prior were now able to have a polite conversation.
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The other reason is that halfway through, their interview gets interrupted by an old
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British Islamophobe who spouts a bunch of anti-Muslim talking points at Ali for no other
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reason than because he looks like a Muslim.
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The interview gets sidetracked and derailed by the consequences of Kaylin's prior actions.
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It's almost as if this interview is metaphorically expressing that the damage that Kaylin did
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in his past lives on no matter what he does, and beyond that, it even gets in the way of
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and will be a constant problem even when he's trying to do good, as he presumably is by
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having this chat with Ali.
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Sure.
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It's remarkable how this turn of events captures a reality and a meta-reality, and both involve
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the person embodied by Ali patiently trying to deal with the aftermath of what this white
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nationalist propaganda has done to people.
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The reason I find this interview the most interesting, however, is because of one detail
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that Kaylin gives while discussing that Freedom Day march that was all about free speech.
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The head of the DFLA, or DFLA, or this far right group that pretended they were about
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football, texted Tommy and said, if you let him on stage, we'll storm the stage, you know,
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you'll be attacked or whatever, and Tommy was like, and I was saying, this is fucking
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about freedom of speech, this is the purpose of the event, it's about freedom of expression
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and freedom of speech, that's literally what it's about, nothing else, and he was like,
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I can't do it, I can't do it, it's going to fucking piss everyone off, I can't do it,
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and then Lucy came on, super, super, super heated, she said, everyone knows about this,
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everyone already knows he's invited, he said he doesn't care if you can spin it off, and
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she said, just admit it, it's because he's fucking Muslim, isn't it, and he said, yeah,
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it is, that's it, and that's when we realised, like at that moment, that he didn't give a
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fuck about freedom of speech, no, but we were quite convinced, like I, fuck you, like we
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were genuinely like, this is, we are like a cool counterculture thing, there's a lot
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of far right idiots that we don't want, but we genuinely believed in that.
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Fuck you.
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Fuck you.
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That was the moment, that was the moment.
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Sure.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I have no idea what was said when Kalen's mic cut out there, but the gist of that story
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is that when Tommy was okay with the idea of Ali being disinvited to speak at this free
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speech event because he was Muslim, it made Kalen wake up and realise that Tommy didn't
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care about free speech at all.
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The conversation goes on to be about how Tommy uses free speech rhetoric as a mask to hide
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his real agenda, which is racism generally and anti-Islam agitation specifically.
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There's no way for him to have known before that point that the far right did that, Dan.
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It's not possible.
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But the claim that he's making, I actually kind of believe, and the reason I do, is that
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in July 2020, Kalen released a video through the Byline Times which captures Tommy Robinson
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essentially saying exactly this back in 2018.
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We should do a free speech march.
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Nope.
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No.
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A free speech march.
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That's the gayest thing I've ever heard.
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What are we going to do?
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Just shout.
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No, the difference is you...
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Just walking around London.
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Do you know why, do you know why, do you know why you think he could be so, why you think
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he's so easy to get numbers, would be so easy to get numbers?
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Because you're not asking people to come out and protest against Islam.
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You're not asking people to protest against anything.
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You're asking people to come and show their face in support of free speech.
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Everyone can do that.
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Doesn't matter about your job, doesn't matter about your career, you're not going to lose
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your job, no one's going to look down upon you, your friends aren't going to hate you.
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I'm hard at free speech, and they still will.
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It's interesting, because that clip is from 2018, and it seems to be Tommy discussing
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the idea of doing a free speech rally, which would be really just to trick large numbers
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of people to come out who wouldn't show up if you were honest about your anti-Muslim
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intentions.
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Yeah, there you go.
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That Freedom Day event in May was Tommy's biggest allegedly free speech event that year,
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and he did spend some of 2018 in jail.
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So it seems to me it's pretty likely that this clip of Tommy explaining that free speech
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is a mask that might have come from before the Freedom Day event.
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I would probably say...
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I have a hunch.
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Could be that.
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Either way, I find it super hard to believe that anyone working with these people wouldn't
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understand that dynamic, and I think it's super embarrassing that Tommy got caught on
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tape explaining the most obvious game he and his friends play.
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Very sad.
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Yeah.
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The point here, whether or not this tape was from before or after the Freedom Day event,
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that day in 2018 is supposed to be the day that Kalen realized that Tommy Robinson used
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the facade of free speech as a way to cover his racism and trick people into getting involved
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with it.
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That was his Saul of Tarsus moment.
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That rally took place on May 6th, 2018, so it's safe to assume that anything that took
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place after that point was done with the full awareness that the whole free speech argument
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from the right-wing media figures is nonsense.
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Well, then I assume he quit at that point, right?
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That date is a problem.
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Is that date a problem?
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Why is that date a problem, Dan?
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Well, for one, in his documentary You Can't Watch This, which you can watch, Kalen interviews
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Alex Jones about how he was kicked off all those social media entities, which happened
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in early August 2018, after the Freedom Day rally.
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This interview is being recorded in January 2019, even later than that.
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Plenty of time to reflect on how maybe Tommy Robinson isn't the only person who uses free
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speech complaints to mask their bigotry.
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No, no, he's an aberration.
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To make matters worse, Tommy Robinson himself is one of the subjects of this documentary,
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and the entire point of it, if you couldn't tell from the title, is that these people
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who have just alternative points of view are having their free speech violated and they're
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wrongly being called racists.
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The entire concept of this documentary is something that, based on Kalen's own timeline,
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he should have completely understood was just a way of masking racism through appealing
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to free speech bullshit.
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In January 2019, at the same time he was making this documentary, Kalen was interviewed by
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Sky News.
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In this interview, he tells a story about a short film he made about Muslim extremists
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while in college.
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This film that he made didn't end up making the clients his screening.
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And if you listen carefully to this interview, you might notice Kalen using free speech arguments
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to justify people's racism.
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Oh, you think so?
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Well, I made a, like, I think it was like a nine minute film, just about, it wasn't
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an interim charity, but there was like a bunch of Muslim extremists who were walking up and
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down Whitechapel and I was just interviewing a few of them, not that they would really
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want to talk very much, but like going up to the cameras.
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And then I showed it to one of my lecturers and they were like, oh, this is, this is interesting,
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but we're not going to put it in the screening of the official, like of the official screening
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of all the short films at the end of the year.
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And I was like, oh, that's really strange.
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I didn't really think much of it.
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But then when I started Googling about universities not like deplatforming things or maybe not
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showing all different ideas.
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I mean, what was, what was the rationale giving to you?
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Right.
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Okay, this is interesting work, but do you know what?
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We're not going to have it in the end of the year.
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They said, I remember them using the word inflammatory, that it could be perceived as
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inflammatory.
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I think they, it wasn't from like a super insidious way.
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I think they were just trying to be polite to a lot of the other students and they didn't
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want to upset a lot of different people and bring that kind of argument into the classroom.
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Oh, you mean hate speech?
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So I wasn't really that bothered about it at the time until I started researching that
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other universities were doing things like that.
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But yeah, that was, that was sort of the first time I recognized that that was going on.
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I mean, is it fair for me to then join the dots between that incident, that film, and
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then your later work with, with Tommy Robinson formerly of the EDL?
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Yeah, well, this is why I say that the left created Tommy, like the left created this
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situation as well.
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Like if you would only show something, maybe we have some difficult conversations and actually
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not silence freedom of speech or not silence content, then people might not start questioning
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this too much.
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People might not start dedicating their lives to it or getting involved in activism to try
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and fight it.
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Like that wouldn't, that wouldn't be the case because there wouldn't be, there wouldn't
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be a silence around it.
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There wouldn't be these issues.
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Sounds like he disavowed it to me.
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This is an appeal to the idea that the left being censorious and limiting free speech
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of people like Tommy Robinson, read racists, is what causes people to become racist.
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These people aren't actually even racist.
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They're just made to look that way because normal society won't let them have the difficult
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conversations that they want to have.
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You know, those difficult conversations like the ones his buddy Stefan Molyneux wants to
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have about phrenology.
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Nothing I love more than oppressing people for hundreds of years and then blaming them
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for making me feel bad.
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That was in 2019.
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It was in January 2019.
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And then in May 2019, Kalen appeared as a guest on RT to promote his documentary that
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you can't watch this.
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Sure.
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And he discussed what the film covers.
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Once again, after he should have realized this was no good.
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Sure.
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He relies on whitewashing his subjects behaviors by appealing to free speech.
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The project looks into how social media is being used as a tool to exclude certain voices.
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It focuses on the online war with prominent conservatives and the implications this removal
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of content has for the freedom of speech.
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The director says he hoped the film would uncover how serious and widespread it's become
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and the danger it poses to our culture.
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Now, the film follows five controversial figures who have been victims of social media purges.
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One is British activist, Tommy Robinson, who founded the far-right English Defense League.
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Facebook accused Robinson of promoting hate against the Muslim community.
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Also featured is Alex Jones, director of the InfoWars website.
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Permanently banned from Twitter, Jones is said to have promoted discriminatory behavior
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and spread disinformation.
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No, he did do that.
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Now, to discuss the documentary and the issue it touches upon, we're joined now by Kalen
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Robertson, an executive producer of the documentary, You Can't Watch This, and Masoud Sajoure,
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chair of the Islamic Human Rights Commission.
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You're both very welcome to the program.
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Now, Kalen, if we could start with you.
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Social media platforms are public forums.
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Do you not think it's a fair argument to respect the diversity of users and not to actively
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provoke or offend them?
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Well, yeah.
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Well, what this documentary explores is the increasing powers that social media have in
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changing the Overton window, in influencing what people can and can't watch online as
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consumers, in changing elections.
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And this is why it's so important.
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And a lot of people argue, oh, well, you know, they're private companies.
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They can do what they want.
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Well, they're actually acting like publishers, and they actually have a duty to actually
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hold free speech as one of their core values, especially given how important social media
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is in our society.
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Looks like someone's using free speech arguments in order to elevate the complaints of Laura
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Loomer, Gavin McGinnis, Alex Jones, and Tommy Robinson.
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Those people all have something else in common besides censorship.
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But this is like a year after the Freedom Day rally when he ostensibly-
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Yeah, but you can hear-
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No, no, no.
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You can hear in his voice that he recognizes that what he's doing is wrong.
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Oh, man.
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It's killing him on the inside.
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This is a man crying out for help, Dan.
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Please, someone stop me from doing this.
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It seems like even though he'd known for at least a year that this was specifically a
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tactic that one of his subjects, Tommy Robinson, used to subtly promote racist ideas to an
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unsuspecting population, Kaelin was still willing to employ the same tactic to subtly
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promote his film full of bigots to an unsuspecting population, which is strange.
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So I was sitting with this, and I was really, like, just reflecting, and I was wondering
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why I was even doing this.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Honestly.
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Of course.
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At a certain point.
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At a certain point, and I want to jump back here real quick, because I think there's
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something interesting that I noticed in that interview that he did in January 2019 with
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Sky News, and it's illuminating to me, because here he is discussing...
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I know you're going to think this is going to be worse than it is, but here's Kaelin
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saying some things that he thought about the civil rights era.
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Oh, good.
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I loved what the left did in the 60s, 70s, and 80s with the civil rights movement, with
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the rights for women, with the rights for gays.
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It's groundbreaking.
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It's what made us as Westerners great.
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I always thought the left was fabulous.
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When I started at university, I was like, of course I'd be on the left.
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Of course.
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Everyone told me that, and I assumed they were the ones who were progressive, caring.
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That was the best thing.
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But it wasn't until I actually saw what was going on, until I actually started seeing
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the homophobia from the people that they were already friends with, the anti-Semitism that
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the left are willing to put up with, that I thought, oh, it's losing their touch a little
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bit.
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It never used to be like that as well.
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They're losing their touch completely, and they need to stamp that out.
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Yeah, fair enough.
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Everybody could be a little bit better.
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Losing their touch, Dan.
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The left, we just don't got it anymore.
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I mean, the left can do better, but I think that if you want to compare...
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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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No, let's not pretend that there aren't shitheads.
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Yeah.
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But that clip is actually a really critical point to distinguish Kalen from the rest of
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the extreme right wing that he was hanging around with.
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His right wing existence is not philosophical.
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It's not rooted in the same traditions as his extreme right wing peers, who are deeply
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anti-communist, and they would view the left of the 60s and 70s as one of the greatest
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existential threats that the West has ever seen.
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If Kalen was rooted in the more entrenched school of the right wing, he would view things
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like integration, voting rights, and LGBTQ protections as things that were pushed by
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communists in order to divide and conquer society.
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Sure.
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It doesn't seem to me from looking through the available information that I can find
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that there's a lot of depth to Kalen's right wing views.
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Mm-hmm. In many ways, it seems aesthetic, almost.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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It seems almost performed.
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Work that he did back when he was on The Rebel is often about dumb, pointless culture war
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type complaints.
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Like this clip from July 2017, where he was oh-so-mad that there was a new emoji that
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got released.
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Oh, for God's sakes.
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Where someone's wearing a hijab.
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The original idea, according to their website, was to have an emoji with a dark purple headscarf,
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but fearing that was a little bit too crazy, they decided on a more neutral, fond color
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one, which I think is a lot more appropriate, to be honest.
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In the change.org petition, the group asked how they were going to make progress if they
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don't include everyone in their path for peace and acceptance.
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And oh boy, are they right.
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I mean, how on earth are we supposed to achieve world peace without the right emojis?
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This is not going to happen.
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And I don't know about you, but I'm so proud to see the tech industry making such giant
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leaps for humanity.
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And I tell you, I can't wait for the FGM emojis.
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Oh, wow.
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Great.
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Wow, wow, wow.
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He's like a, he's like a shittier Paul Watson out there.
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Yep.
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And then, you know, he unconvincingly argues that the British are at war with Islam after
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the suicide bombing in Manchester in 2017, which just again, this doesn't feel convincing.
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And once again, it proves that we are currently right now at this very place in time on the
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23rd of May, 2017 at war.
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And the left seem to think that they still dominate the narrative of this entire perspective.
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We had Katy Perry only hours ago saying that we need to ignore what's going on and keep
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the borders open and stop hate.
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We've had hundreds of political figures on pretty much every side of the political spectrum
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up and down the country, explain to all of us and lecture us about how we must come together,
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how we must unite and how we must not hate anybody.
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Well, the fact is that we are coming together, but we're coming together as British people
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and Islamists are coming together as themselves.
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And we are becoming even more of a target and it's a total waste of time and we are
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lying to ourselves if we think that having some sort of vigil, posting notes all over
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city centres saying that we will not be cowed and lighting candles will make any difference.
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Now the only differences between World War II, the last time this country looked as at
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war as we are now, was that at least then we could name the enemy and at least then
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we actually fought back.
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And now we don't do even slightly something like that.
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It just seems like an act.
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There's a video of him complaining about people cutting loose at Pride.
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There's a video of him complaining about Starbucks changing their logo in Saudi Arabia.
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It doesn't feel like it has anything going on.
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Yeah.
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Like, it feels like a PR person doing a right-wing piece of propaganda.
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Yeah.
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Because that's what it is.
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Caelan discussed the beginnings of his career in that Sky News interview from 2019.
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No, like, my career was always in marketing and politics and, well, sort of PR and things
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like that at university and after I graduated, you know, my partner was at the BBC and I
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was working in marketing and PR firms and that's where everything was really, really
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focused and that's obviously how I transitioned from sort of traditional establishment sectors
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into what we're doing now, sort of taking all of the textbook stuff and applying it
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to kind of more sort of fringe alternative subjects, which is interesting.
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This isn't a person who's motivated by the same ideologies that many of the people we
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talk about are.
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The Infos universe, particularly in the pre-Trump era but still to this day, is based on the
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bedrock of ideas disseminated by the John Birch Society and their associated figures.
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It's almost entirely emerging of Cold War anti-communism run amok and extreme white
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identity-tinged religious beliefs.
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That's what you find behind many of Alex's guests and in his own intellectual tradition.
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This is the same intellectual tradition that popularized conspiracies about the globalist
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which have morphed into the deep state conspiracies in the past few years.
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Yeah, yeah, of course.
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The pool that Kaelin is swimming in was filled by anti-communist conspiracy theories, but
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I don't get the sense that he knows how the plumbing works.
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He knows marketing.
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That was his job, and he's good at it.
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I would say I'm like an alternative producer, so covering the stories that a lot of traditional
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media and establishment media don't want to talk about or are too worried to talk about,
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sort of covering the other side of a lot of the conversations that aren't being discussed,
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even in day-to-day life, and bringing production value to that as well and legitimizing those
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arguments so that they're not like fringe sort of things on the corners of the internet
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and bringing that to the mainstream.
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In 2019, while on Sky News, prior to being on RT to promote his free speech documentary
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full of racists, Kaelin fully expresses an awareness that his role is to take fringe
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things and make them look presentable so that people might get tricked into thinking that
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they're mainstream.
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What this raises is the question of like, what does it mean to disavow right-wing ideology
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if you never fucking believed in it in the first place?
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Yeah, or if your ideology was simplistic and not really based in the same things that are
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motivating this wide swath of right-wing ideology that is back to the militia movement.
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Totally.
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And in that case, then what is he disavowing? Is he disavowing fucking opportunistic bullshit?
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Is he disavowing fucking deceptive editing?
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Is he disavowing surprise interviews?
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Like, I want to know what this is.
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I think that that's one of the things that I'm kind of confused by and I'm interested
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in.
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And these are the sorts of questions that were coming up as I was taking in a lot of
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this content.
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Yeah.
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I mean, it's confusing to me.
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I don't- Because I guess it's racism.
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I guess it's hate.
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Yeah.
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Okay, fine.
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You're a merc for Nazis.
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You're not a Nazi yourself.
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Yeah, I don't think I care about the distinction between those two all too much.
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Well, yeah.
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You know what I'm saying?
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It's not necessarily a...
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It's not a disavowing of right-wing ideas, although there are certainly a lot of racist
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problems on the right.
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Sure, sure, sure.
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I don't get the sense that there was anything other than profiting off bigotry.
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Yeah, it was a gig.
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Yeah.
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I answered an ad and I got a job and they were like, make these PR puff pieces.
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And I was like, I'm good at that.
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And then six years later, it turns out being a Nazi is wrong.
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It turns out there is a wall.
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Yeah.
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I don't think I'm going to be able to work at CNN as a line producer if I've got this
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on my baggage.
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Well, the thing that I run into that I think is really difficult is that I do believe he
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probably ended up in a position that was different than where he wanted to be.
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Sure.
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I do believe that there is entirely a possibility that some of that radicalization did happen.
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Totally.
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But from everything I can tell, it's not the story of somebody who got sucked into YouTube
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algorithms and got into right-wing ideology or something like that.
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It's somebody who sought out working with Tommy Robinson and rebel media in order to
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produce racist content that looked better than what was being created at the time.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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He saw a market inefficiency.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And...
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Which is also incredibly fucked up.
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But again, that's not Beyond Redemption 2.
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No, no, no.
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Of course not.
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It's different.
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It feels different than the story that we're being told.
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It feels different than the story that you get from reading that Hatewatch article.
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But it's not the person who's beyond care.
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Sure, sure.
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It's not somebody who's beyond respect.
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No.
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It's just that I'm gonna look a little bit differently.
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No.
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I mean, a PR person for an oil company sure can redeem themselves.
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The oil company's destroying the world.
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You're working for an essentially evil organization.
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I get it.
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But I mean, that's different.
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It's different.
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It really is different from being part and parcel of people who are there to inspire
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violence.
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That's what...
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Because that's ultimately the reality of it.
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I get that maybe he wasn't a believer in the deepest deep end, but he is still producing
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content that is only designed to drum up violence.
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I mean, at least hate.
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And here's what else he knew.
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He knew that Ali would get murdered.
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Could, yeah.
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Right?
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So he knows that violence is absolutely on the table.
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And he probably knows, or he should, or he would have to be incredibly stupid not to
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know that that is the fucking...
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The result of what they do is that group of people texting Tommy Robinson saying,
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we'll kill that guy.
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Yeah.
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That's the result.
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Yeah.
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And it's part of it.
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It's the base.
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Yeah.
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It's the idea.
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Yeah.
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And, you know, the production of this documentary about free speech being infringed for these
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four people who are complete bigots.
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Sure.
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Like, that was going on after he had the Freedom Day experience.
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We all have our relapses, Dan.
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It's just tough.
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It's just tough for me to swallow.
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I'm not trying to be unempathic and I'm not trying to shit on the guy.
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And I hope...
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I just don't know, man.
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I just don't know.
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No, I mean, we talked about this and part of why I was so vehemently against interviewing
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is, and I don't know if I'll bore you with this one more time, but whenever my family
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left the cult, before they could be accepted back in...
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I think this is an important perspective.
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Yeah, before they could be accepted back into their family.
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And it took a while.
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It took a while.
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They had to send actual letters of apology, single spaced, that actually enumerated,
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we understand where we went wrong and here is what we are going to do about that to improve
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things.
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This is a genuine apology because it's about knowing how to correct the mistake instead
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of just saying, I'm sorry for the bad things that happened.
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Yeah, and that's what I don't hear.
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Yeah, and I think that there's a little bit of a delineation that needs to be made because
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that's about personal life and I'm staying entirely in terms of professional life because
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I'm not interested in Kalen's personal life.
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I'm not interested in anything about that.
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I am very willing to believe that he is a good person and that he's had a change of
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heart.
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I'm concerned about the product.
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I'm concerned about the effects and the work.
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Like, the path to making things right for somebody who had his hands in and produced
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slash directed documentaries for Lauren Southern, Alex Jones, and fucking Stefan Molyneux within
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the last few years.
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It's a path.
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It's tough.
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It's not, the public has been hurt by this.
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A lot.
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And I do think that, you know, things that you can see online, things that he said, they
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do give the indication and suggestion, and I don't have any reason to necessarily distrust
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it, that he wants to make that path, and I hope he does.
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I would say that the questions that I've been raised with through this is, okay, so he's,
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part of his redemption campaign is gotcha clips that half of which were already in the
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fucking documentary, that show Alex Jones represents himself differently in public than
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he does in private.
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And what you have just played for me is a clip of this guy representing himself differently
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in public in the interview where he says, here's what I believe, and this is the moment
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it happened to me, and then a clip from a year later talking about his fucking documentary.
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More or less.
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So to me, while those are different, they are not the same.
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No.
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They also don't point me towards believing that a guy who's very good at marketing is
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not rebranding and is instead contrite and changing things.
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It's hard.
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It's hard.
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And it's tough.
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Yeah.
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It's tough because I don't want to live in that place of suspicion.
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That doesn't make me feel good.
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I'm not like, hey, you know what is great?
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Thinking the worst of people.
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That's not true.
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But at the same time, we can't live in this space.
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Otherwise it's going to happen again and again and again like it always does.
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This is where we get to why I told you this off air, and I will say it again.
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I think that this was one of the most difficult and complicated episodes I've had to prepare
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for two main reasons.
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The first is that I had to constantly check in on myself and make sure that I was not
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doing this motivated out of spite.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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I don't feel bitter about people not replying to my messages, but you never know how much
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might be below the surface.
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There was this emotionally interesting ride that I was on as the whole thing of trying
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to branch out and do something like requesting raw video from somebody, and that blew up
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in my face.
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There was a lot of processing going on.
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It's kind of funny to be around you with that emotional roller coaster because we don't
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talk like the entire way through.
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Yeah.
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So I'm getting little chunks of like, oh, you're on the down wave.
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I can definitely get this text is definitely not a good one.
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And then the text where he's like, this is the most exciting thing I've ever done.
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It's like I'm available to snapshots.
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You're filtering this through your own interpretation of these snapshots.
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That's what I'm saying.
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I'm just getting snapshots.
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So the second reason why this was so difficult, I think is more important.
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I hope Kalen is sincere and that he's changed.
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He's co-founded a new organization that's, quote, designed to show people radicalized
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into far right movements that there is a path out.
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That is an important goal.
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And people knowing that there's life after whatever thing they've fallen into is critical.
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I'm personally evidence of that.
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Yes.
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Absolutely.
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If this is for real, then I don't want to be a part of impeding Kalen from being able
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to live a good, healthy life that can be an example to others that they can do that too.
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I'm not interested in being a dick about someone who's trying to make their way out
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of being in the right wing.
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That does not benefit me at all.
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And it's not interesting to me.
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I don't like the idea of people shitting on somebody by default.
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Sure.
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I don't like that.
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The point that I think about is regardless of whether or not he specifically is on the
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right path, and just like you, I hope he is.
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This story is still instructive.
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Yeah.
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Because sure, he's on the path.
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There are still plenty of people who have taken advantage of this exact type of situation.
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Sure.
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We'll get into that in a second.
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Exactly.
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Just saying.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Ultimately, also, I think it's important to remember that in the big picture, it doesn't
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matter whether or not we believe him.
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This dude doesn't owe me or you anything.
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Any apologies that he needs to make are probably to other people and they could have already
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happened and we don't know.
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And that's totally cool.
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And that's their business.
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I'm not interested in it.
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This show is largely created by me taking in Alex Jones's content and finding things
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that stick out as interesting and seeing where curiosity takes me.
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In this case, there was a high profile viral video of Alex and the exploration of the context
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of it and where it came from led me to learn a bunch of stuff about a guy who's apparently
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turned over a new leaf.
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The way I went through this was largely what I would do if this was a Leo Zagami clip.
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Yeah, totally.
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Or something.
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100%.
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Except, I will admit, I pulled a few punches because some of it is like, well, this is
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probably shitty.
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Yeah.
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And also, he didn't claim to be Jesus.
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No.
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And I'm not here to...
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I'm here to ask him to.
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Leo Zagami did claim to be Jesus.
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He did claim to be Jesus.
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And he did 9-11.
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I'm saying, Kalen, if you want to give back in my good graces, buddy, there's a very
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very simple way.
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I believe in redemption wholeheartedly.
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Someone very important to me got sucked down a right-wing media hole and managed to find
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their way out, and I know that I would have hated them back when they were in that place.
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For sure.
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I respect and I'll defend people's right to change, but I think there needs to be really
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serious examination of the professional careers of people who are claiming to have changed,
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because to not do so is dangerous, professionally.
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Recent history is full of people who tried to make dishonest re-brands.
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I'm sure Samantha Bee isn't happy she played along with Glenn Beck's bullshit about how
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he was sorry about all that stuff, and then he went back on it.
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Yeah, what a surprise.
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In May 2019, The Daily Dot published an article about how noted white nationalist creep Baked
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Alaska quote is a recovering alt-right troll.
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This article quotes him as saying, quote, I was brainwashed.
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I felt like I was part of a cult.
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Flash forward to the present, and the last we heard of him was when he was arrested for
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being part of the January 6th storming of the US Capitol.
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Yeah, but that was outside of a cult.
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Okay.
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People like Mike Cernovich have made more pivots than I can count, and there's many
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more people like this.
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My kind of gist on how I'm, because I've thought about it a lot since we've been talking
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about this whole thing, and part, I think part of the simple thing that I kind of want
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is like, okay, you don't get to be in public.
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One thing that I've noticed so often is that it's just, I'm just going to change jobs.
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It's not like I'm going to do anything different.
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I'm just going to get a different gig.
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Yeah.
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And I don't appreciate that.
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Yeah, it is just a shifting over of like, I'm going to now do stuff that isn't hateful.
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I'll make slick content to make sure people know that they can not like stuff that like
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I used to do.
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No, they don't need to go to a judge to say, give me 100 hours of community service.
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News organizations should say, we're not going to put you on TV until you do 100 hours
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of, you know, like something along those lines of like, get your fucking hands dirty.
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Well, and the thing that really, I struggle with again too, is that like when you have
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stories of people who have been sucked down rabbit holes of information like YouTube radicalization
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and what have you, I feel like their stories are valuable.
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And I don't think Kalen's story is invaluable, but I think that their stories are really
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useful because people in their position can hear them and relate to things that they're
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talking about for sure.
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Yeah.
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Kalen's experience is pretty fucking unique and I'm not sure his testimony is going to
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be persuasive to other right-wing propagandists.
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They like him saying, you can get out, you can follow my lead and get out.
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They're going to look at him the same way Alex's audience looks at the Southern Poverty
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Law Center.
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It's not going to be persuasive to other folks who are creating and disseminating this
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propaganda.
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Right.
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It is going to benefit rehabbing his image.
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It will.
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Yeah.
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And again, I hate coming off the way that I sound because I do sound like I'm beating
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the shit out of a dead horse right now.
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I'm just, you know, we're just not far away from the storming of the fucking Capitol.
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It's true.
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And I'm supposed to be like, oh, he's disavowed the right and I care?
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I'm supposed to care?
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Great.
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You know?
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Yeah, yeah.
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That's all I'm saying.
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No, I know.
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It's tough.
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Yeah.
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It's complicated.
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It is.
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And I mean, I don't think that rehabbing your image is wrong if you're rehabbing.
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Absolutely not.
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I think that people deserve chances.
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And I just like he's doing this organization that's supposed to help people get out of
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right wing stuff.
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If the idea is to appeal to people who are sucked into these webs and these right wing
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information spaces, I don't think that he is going to be a very easy or I'm sorry, I
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don't think he's going to be a very hard target for the right wing propagandists to attack.
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You can smear him in two seconds.
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Yeah.
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Like Alex did, saying he works or hope not hate.
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Fucking, you can, again, you can play clips of him doing the thing that he's, you know,
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blaming or he's exploiting Alex for doing.
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Because that's also what he's doing.
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He's exploiting Alex and the SPLC at the same time.
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And they're obviously exploiting his bullshit.
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And the only people who benefit from this are the three parties involved, because none
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of us get shit from it.
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Well, the issue that I have is like, I guess you could describe it as exploiting, but I
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don't know if it's intentional.
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Sure.
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I could see a scenario where he thinks that this is going to make a difference, the video
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of Alex.
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Of course.
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And the SPLC thinks, hey, this'll show Alex is full of shit.
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Of course.
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And both of them just have no idea.
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Right.
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I could see that being possible.
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I see it as being fairly unlikely.
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Super unlikely.
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And would demonstrate a uncharacteristic naivete on both of their parts.
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Perhaps, perhaps something so.
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But it is possible.
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It is possible.
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So the rest of the reporting in that hate watch article that this clip was released
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in this initial clip, it's not stuff from the video.
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It's just things like Kaylin telling them, you know, like that Alex brags about selling
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dick pills in his audience was gullible.
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And then he paid Paul Joseph Watson $16,000 a month.
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All these things are interesting.
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But I already know how much Jerome Corsi got paid per month.
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And it was about what?
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$15,000 a month.
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I don't remember exactly, but it was some absurd number.
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But the problem is that I can't accept the unsubstantiated word of someone like this
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just because they're telling me something I want to hear.
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Totally.
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That's not fair.
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Yeah.
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Also something that you should deduce.
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It is far more likely that he is making fun of people for buying dick pills behind their
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backs than otherwise.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, I mean, sure.
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I feel like the entire supplement industry is laughing at us behind their backs.
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I feel like a lot of them are.
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They have to.
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I think that the problem with stuff like that, and it's definitely something that I've
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realized over the course of doing this show, is that that is something that everybody who
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isn't on the inside assumes.
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Yeah.
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And everybody who's inside won't be convinced that that's the case.
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No chance.
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Particularly based on the hearsay of somebody being quoted by the Southern Poverty Law Center.
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Totally.
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It's just...
Unknown Speaker (01:34:33.680)
Well, I mean, you'd have to change your entire worldview because some guy who you know is
Unknown Speaker (01:34:38.800)
connected to the SPLC told you that Alex thought buying dick pills made you a joke.
Unknown Speaker (01:34:44.399)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:34:44.880)
You know?
Unknown Speaker (01:34:45.199)
And it's like, one, these are dick pills.
Unknown Speaker (01:34:47.279)
I'm not even going to admit that I buy these.
Unknown Speaker (01:34:49.039)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:34:50.000)
Two, I am not going to believe that I've been conned out of having good boners.
Unknown Speaker (01:34:55.279)
Not happening!
Unknown Speaker (01:34:56.079)
Never.
Unknown Speaker (01:34:56.640)
Never!
Unknown Speaker (01:34:57.520)
So at the end of this, what we come to is, you know, we have a situation where it's
Unknown Speaker (01:35:05.359)
essentially another instance of the media bungling how you report on Alex.
Unknown Speaker (01:35:12.720)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:35:13.199)
And honestly, I think that maybe you could look at this and think it was a slam dunk,
Unknown Speaker (01:35:17.439)
but, you know, if you just had a little bit of context to what was going on in Alex's
Unknown Speaker (01:35:22.560)
life at that time, you'd look at that clip entirely differently than how it's supposed
Unknown Speaker (01:35:27.279)
to be presented.
Unknown Speaker (01:35:28.800)
And then after that, I just don't know, man.
Unknown Speaker (01:35:31.199)
I don't know how I feel.
Unknown Speaker (01:35:33.439)
We've finished recording, we're at the end of this, and I don't know how I feel.
Unknown Speaker (01:35:37.439)
I don't know if I feel shitty about, like, looking at these things.
Unknown Speaker (01:35:41.359)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:35:41.680)
Um, I don't know if it is worth anyone's time to be like, hey, here is somebody who's
Unknown Speaker (01:35:48.800)
embarking on a redemption arc, and I think that's cool, I think it's possible, but I
Unknown Speaker (01:35:55.680)
also think we need to wrestle with the fact that this isn't somebody who just came off
Unknown Speaker (01:36:02.239)
the YouTube.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:03.359)
It's somebody who went to New Zealand with fucking Stefan Molyneux.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:08.800)
He went to Poland with Stefan Molyneux.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:10.800)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:11.760)
It's a serious, like, this is somebody who-
Unknown Speaker (01:36:14.239)
He captured the shot of Stefan Molyneux proudly declaring himself a white nationalist, and
Unknown Speaker (01:36:21.199)
when he clicked cut, he was like, that was great stuff, man.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:25.680)
Now let me edit it.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:26.880)
Yeah, exactly.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:28.000)
I'm gonna watch hours of him saying that he's a white nationalist.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:31.760)
Let me edit this together in a way that makes him look smart and presentable.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:34.640)
Exactly, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:35.520)
Yeah, so kids or youths who click on this video will see it and think like, oh, you
Unknown Speaker (01:36:41.199)
know what, he does make a great case for why Poland is a great country and maybe it's because
Unknown Speaker (01:36:45.600)
everyone's white.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:46.479)
Exactly.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:47.359)
It's-
Unknown Speaker (01:36:47.600)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:36:49.840)
And to me, the reason that I play any of the clips that I played, or any of the stuff,
Unknown Speaker (01:36:56.720)
is not to beat up on this guy, because I really don't want to.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:00.000)
Of course not.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:00.560)
I play it to illustrate that as far as I can tell, everything that I look at and I can
Unknown Speaker (01:37:09.119)
see, it's the mark of a willing and excited participant in this stuff.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:16.399)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:17.039)
It's- I think that there's a victimhood that inherently comes along with right-wing spheres.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:22.239)
I think that a lot of the time they abuse each other in ways that are sometimes subtle
Unknown Speaker (01:37:26.720)
and sometimes pretty overt.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:28.159)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:28.479)
And I do think that there's probably a fair amount of that, and I feel bad that he had
Unknown Speaker (01:37:33.600)
to be involved in any of that stuff.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:35.119)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:35.520)
And I don't think that anybody is not a victim, to some extent, that gets in these machines.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:41.680)
In the same way that we talk about how Alex fires Millie Weaver for Shadow Game.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:46.640)
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:47.279)
It's like, you think you're important?
Unknown Speaker (01:37:48.239)
No, you're not.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:48.720)
No, you're not.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:49.199)
You're disbandable and, you know, that is an inherent abuse.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:52.479)
You've got to do a fight with Stevie Pease, so you're gone.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:55.039)
Bye, David Knight.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:55.840)
You're gone.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:56.399)
You've worked here for a decade and you're fucking gone, I don't care.
Unknown Speaker (01:37:58.720)
That was a huge mistake and I'm not looking back.
Unknown Speaker (01:38:01.680)
Yeah, I think that is like an inherent piece of this information world, and it is an intrinsically
Unknown Speaker (01:38:08.239)
abusive place to be in.
Unknown Speaker (01:38:09.520)
And so I'm not minimizing that, and I'm not saying, like, he doesn't have a fair point
Unknown Speaker (01:38:13.199)
that, like, there's probably some mistreatment along the way, and that sucks.
Unknown Speaker (01:38:16.239)
For sure.
Unknown Speaker (01:38:17.199)
That said, from the second he is involved in right-wing media at Rebel, then with Tommy
Unknown Speaker (01:38:25.920)
Robinson, it's not somebody who's not, like, driving his own train.
Unknown Speaker (01:38:34.000)
He's not on message boards.
Unknown Speaker (01:38:36.399)
He's filming their fucking documentaries.
Unknown Speaker (01:38:39.039)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:38:39.359)
You know?
Unknown Speaker (01:38:39.840)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:38:40.239)
Like, that's, I don't know, I don't have any place to judge by no means, but one thing
Unknown Speaker (01:38:47.760)
I did think when I read that article was like, oh man, I thought the SPLC would be better
Unknown Speaker (01:38:54.720)
than this. I really did.
Unknown Speaker (01:38:57.359)
If I saw that in, like, The Times or something like that, yeah, of course, you guys are all
Unknown Speaker (01:39:02.159)
shitheads, but it's the SPLC hate watch!
Unknown Speaker (01:39:06.079)
They're good at this!
Unknown Speaker (01:39:07.920)
It's, I was, man, I was like, goddamn, you guys are, you know what?
Unknown Speaker (01:39:12.880)
I thought that the left had lost its touch a little bit.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:16.720)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:18.800)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:19.359)
Anyway, let's end this.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:20.960)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:21.359)
Um, apologies if anybody thought this episode was pointless.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:26.640)
It's half pointless.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:27.279)
I doubt they did.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:28.560)
But we'll be back, Jordan, but until then, we have a website.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:31.199)
Indeed we do!
Unknown Speaker (01:39:31.920)
It's knowledgefight.com.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:32.960)
Yeah, we're also on Twitter.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:34.159)
We are on Twitter!
Unknown Speaker (01:39:34.880)
It's at knowledgefight.net, go to betjordan.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:36.640)
We're also, what?
Unknown Speaker (01:39:38.479)
Wait, we're on Facebook?
Unknown Speaker (01:39:39.760)
Oh, did I say?
Unknown Speaker (01:39:40.720)
No, you said we're on Twitter.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:41.920)
Yeah, we're on Facebook.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:42.560)
Yeah, now we're on Facebook.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:43.600)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:43.840)
We are on Facebook, Dan.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:44.720)
I'm absent-minded.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:47.359)
If you could, please find a local charity or by phone.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:49.840)
We'll be back, but until then, I'm Neo.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:51.279)
I'm Leo.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:51.680)
I'm DZXClark.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:52.560)
I'm Daryl Rundis.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:53.279)
I'm absent-minded.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:55.039)
Andy in Kansas, you're on the air.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:56.479)
Thanks for holding.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:59.039)
Hello, Alex.
Unknown Speaker (01:39:59.760)
I'm a first-time caller.
Unknown Speaker (01:40:00.640)
I'm a huge fan.
Unknown Speaker (01:40:01.439)
I love your work.
Unknown Speaker (01:40:02.319)
I love you.
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