Transcript/853: Chatting with The Squatch Guys
From Knowledge Fight Wiki
Warning: Bot Generated Content
This transcript was automatically generated by transcription software and likely contains many mistakes and misattributions. Please check the audio for definitive quotes, attribution, and context.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:00.820)
Nshoot The Single
Unknown Speaker (00:00:01.139)
The Old covered 15th Nshoot Nshoot
Unknown Speaker (00:00:02.500)
Nshoot
Unknown Speaker (00:00:03.000)
The Old cover 15th
Unknown Speaker (00:00:04.500)
Ready on! Ready on Ready on!
Unknown Speaker (00:00:06.580)
Ready On! Ready On! Ready On! Ready Your
Unknown Speaker (00:00:08.580)
Ready On! Ready On! Read Y Conservatives
Unknown Speaker (00:00:11.179)
active
Unknown Speaker (00:00:14.580)
ap
Unknown Speaker (00:00:16.100)
I am sweating
Unknown Speaker (00:00:19.199)
knowledge respectfully
Unknown Speaker (00:00:21.019)
bleh
Unknown Speaker (00:00:22.320)
I have great movie respect for knowledge
Unknown Speaker (00:00:23.660)
ph cries
Unknown Speaker (00:00:24.739)
knowledge
Unknown Speaker (00:00:25.219)
Pray
Unknown Speaker (00:00:25.719)
I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys
Unknown Speaker (00:00:27.480)
Saying we are the bad guys
Unknown Speaker (00:00:29.140)
knowledge fight.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:30.140)
Dan and Jordan.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:31.140)
Knowledge fight.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:32.140)
Riddle her, riddle her, riddle her.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:33.140)
I need, I need money.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:34.140)
Riddle her, riddle her, riddle her.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:35.140)
Andy and Kansas.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:36.140)
Andy and Kandy.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:37.140)
Stop it.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:38.140)
Andy and Kansas.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:39.140)
Andy and Kansas.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:40.140)
Andy and K- It's time to pray.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:41.140)
Andy and Kansas, you're on the air.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:42.140)
Thanks for holding us.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:43.140)
Hello, Alex.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:44.140)
I'm a first-time caller.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:45.140)
I'm a huge fan.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:46.140)
I love your room.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:47.140)
Knowledge fight.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:48.140)
Knowledgefight.com.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:49.140)
I love you.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:50.140)
I love you.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:51.140)
I love you, too.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:52.140)
I love you.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:54.140)
I love you.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:56.140)
I love you.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:57.140)
Hey, everybody!
Unknown Speaker (00:00:58.140)
Welcome back to Knowledge Fight.
Unknown Speaker (00:00:59.140)
I'm Dan.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:00.140)
I'm Jordan.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:01.140)
We're double dudes.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:02.140)
I'd like to sit around, worship at the altar of Selene, and talk a little bit about Alex
Unknown Speaker (00:01:06.219)
Jones.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:07.219)
Oh, indeed we are.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:08.219)
Dan.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:09.219)
Jordan.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:10.219)
Dan.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:11.219)
Jordan.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:12.219)
I have a quick question for you, sir.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:13.219)
What's up?
Unknown Speaker (00:01:14.219)
What's your bright spot today, buddy?
Unknown Speaker (00:01:15.219)
My bright spot is fall is right around the corner.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:16.219)
Fall.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:17.219)
Possibly upon us.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:18.219)
Is it?
Unknown Speaker (00:01:19.219)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:20.219)
And that means one thing.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:21.219)
And that is, where there's originals, Green Apple is back.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:23.500)
So good.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:24.500)
I have literally never heard of those.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:26.540)
So good.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:27.540)
I found them last year.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:29.019)
Werther's Originals, chewy, not a hard candy.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:32.219)
Oh, don't like chewy ones.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:33.219)
But it's a caramel apple flavor, and it works perfectly.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:36.019)
It is so good.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:38.540)
So good.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:39.540)
All right.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:40.540)
I was at Marshall's the other day with friends of the show, Marty and Sarah.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:45.180)
And I found this, and I got very excited.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:47.859)
And Sarah was like, well, if you like it, you should get two bags, because she's an
Unknown Speaker (00:01:52.420)
enabler.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:53.420)
That is the most Sarah thing to say.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:56.700)
And I fell for it.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:57.700)
Of course you did.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:58.700)
I got two bags.
Unknown Speaker (00:01:59.700)
Because she's the devil.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:00.700)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:01.700)
And another thing that's at Marshall's, look at this.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:04.620)
We're not doing just the tip waffle cone tips.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:07.659)
Just the tip.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:08.659)
The best bite.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:09.699)
Is the name of it.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:10.699)
That's a dick thing.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:11.699)
Haven't you, you've seen that before.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:13.500)
I had never until like two weeks ago, me and Sarah went to Marshall's.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:18.460)
Look, here's the thing.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:20.379)
Michael's, the craft store, it's a floor under Marshall's.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:25.819)
And so she and I have gone to the craft store to get some fake plants for my walls and stuff.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:31.580)
And so she has wanted to go to Marshall's, so we've gone to Marshall's both times that
Unknown Speaker (00:02:34.900)
we've gone.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:35.900)
First time, I saw the just the tips, and I got furious.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:39.259)
And we met up with you afterwards, and I yelled at you about them.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:42.419)
You did.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:43.419)
For quite some time.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:44.419)
And so then we went back the other day, and I got some.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:47.259)
I bought the bag because I was like, I had to have made it up, and I didn't.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:51.979)
It's right here.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:52.979)
It's right there.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:53.979)
And they're good.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:54.979)
All right.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:55.979)
They need to change their name.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:56.979)
It's offensive.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:57.979)
To what?
Unknown Speaker (00:02:58.979)
Balls deep.
Unknown Speaker (00:02:59.979)
That's the only thing that makes sense.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:00.979)
I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:01.979)
That's the only one that makes sense.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:03.699)
Anyway, what's your bright spot?
Unknown Speaker (00:03:04.939)
My bright spot is, there's a documentary series called Telemarketers.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:10.780)
And it's about, it's really, really good.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:12.580)
Is it about telemarketers?
Unknown Speaker (00:03:13.860)
Yeah, but a specific kind.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:16.419)
There's all these interesting characters who were former felons, couldn't get a job anywhere
Unknown Speaker (00:03:22.659)
but this cold calling center, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:03:25.960)
And one of the guys was really, really good at it, and then starts unraveling this mystery
Unknown Speaker (00:03:31.460)
that it's tied.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:32.460)
Dan?
Unknown Speaker (00:03:33.460)
I'll watch it.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:34.460)
Don't spoil anything else.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:35.460)
Does it telemarketer?
Unknown Speaker (00:03:36.460)
It goes to the top.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:37.460)
I'll watch it.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:38.460)
That sounds very interesting.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:39.460)
It's very interesting.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:40.460)
I'm worried that if you say anything more, it'll give away.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:42.800)
It's telemarketers.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:43.960)
There's some really, really HBO.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:45.460)
Okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:46.460)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:47.460)
I think I have a password.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:48.460)
If not, I'll steal yours.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:49.460)
Ha ha.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:50.460)
Take that, streaming services.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:51.460)
Ho ho ho.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:52.460)
You'll never catch us.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:53.460)
Support the workers.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:54.460)
The Pirate Bay.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:55.460)
So, Jordan.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:56.460)
Yes, Dan.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:57.460)
Today we have an episode to go over.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:58.460)
Indeed, we do.
Unknown Speaker (00:03:59.460)
But we're not going over anything.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:01.460)
We're talking to some people.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:02.699)
Oh no.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:03.699)
Now, generally, interviews are your territory.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:06.460)
I've been doing them solo recently, yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:08.699)
And I do appreciate you doing them because with this Europe trip especially, it really
Unknown Speaker (00:04:12.539)
does help take a little bit of the burden off with having to prepare these episodes
Unknown Speaker (00:04:17.079)
and get ready and stuff, so kudos and a tip of the cap to you.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:22.860)
Thank you very much.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:23.860)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:24.860)
But today, it was an interview that it only seemed right that we both did.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:27.759)
And we both had to be there.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:29.259)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:30.259)
And that is, of course, we are interviewing Solomon Berg, the major who is a friend of
Unknown Speaker (00:04:35.579)
the ambassador of Sasquatch, and Lieutenant Daniel Jordan, the two guys who did that.
Unknown Speaker (00:04:44.620)
And I think some people will maybe think this is slightly hypocritical of me, but we address
Unknown Speaker (00:04:50.100)
some of the reasons why I think it's not hypocritical to interview them, though their experiment
Unknown Speaker (00:04:57.980)
and what they did by going on Project Camelot is definitely something that I don't advocate
Unknown Speaker (00:05:02.819)
that people do.
Unknown Speaker (00:05:04.699)
But I do think that it's still what they were aspiring towards and the kind of messaging
Unknown Speaker (00:05:10.160)
that they were trying to inject into it, I think that justifies having a decompressing
Unknown Speaker (00:05:16.379)
session, debriefing, because they're fake military people, with them and interesting
Unknown Speaker (00:05:23.620)
dudes.
Unknown Speaker (00:05:24.620)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:05:25.620)
I would say that whatever judgment you may have on like, should, shouldn't, yes, no,
Unknown Speaker (00:05:33.060)
no, it's a very interesting conversation worth listening to, and it's a point of view that's
Unknown Speaker (00:05:37.139)
worth hearing out.
Unknown Speaker (00:05:38.540)
And I think that all the criticism that would be levied would be towards me.
Unknown Speaker (00:05:43.019)
And I will say, if you think that it's hypocritical of me, I appreciate your position, I respectfully
Unknown Speaker (00:05:47.620)
disagree.
Unknown Speaker (00:05:48.620)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:05:49.620)
But also, we are four people and it's on a Zoom call, and so I want to apologize a little
Unknown Speaker (00:05:56.660)
bit for some crosstalk and maybe some sound stuff, but it's fine.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:02.579)
It's worth listening to.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:04.300)
But we'll be back after another episode, I don't know, we have to do a beginning and
Unknown Speaker (00:06:11.220)
an end here, I don't know.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:12.220)
We don't have to do a beginning and an end right now, enjoy the episode.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:16.540)
Is that what we do?
Unknown Speaker (00:06:17.540)
Hey, everybody, Jordan.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:19.540)
Yes, Dan.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:20.740)
We are currently on our tour in the UK.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:24.860)
We have crossed the ocean.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:26.420)
Yes, when you are listening to this, that will be the case.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:29.060)
But for now, we are still in Chicago and we are joined by a couple of folks who have a
Unknown Speaker (00:06:37.620)
little interview.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:38.860)
This is a strange interview to have, because a couple of things, one, I didn't think this
Unknown Speaker (00:06:47.660)
conversation would ever happen.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:49.980)
For sure.
Unknown Speaker (00:06:50.980)
I thought this was going to be a dangling thread that would live as sort of a mysterious,
Unknown Speaker (00:06:55.899)
no one knows what happened, but no one, there's never a debrief conversation about it.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:02.139)
Full closure seemed like something that would almost be preferable not to have.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:06.660)
Well, in a movie, this is a sunset, this is a Kaiser Soze walks away, a limp goes away
Unknown Speaker (00:07:16.980)
kind of thing.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:18.800)
But then the other reason is, I think I may have been a little bit unfair about these
Unknown Speaker (00:07:26.420)
folks.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:27.420)
And I would like to, before I introduce them, start with a slight apology that I was pretty
Unknown Speaker (00:07:32.939)
harshly critical.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:35.860)
And maybe it had to do just with one failed bit.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:41.939)
But joining us is Solomon Berg from the Project Camelot episodes about the Ambassador Sasquatch,
Unknown Speaker (00:07:51.699)
also known as Barry, and Lieutenant Daniel Jordan, also known as Andrew.
Unknown Speaker (00:07:57.899)
Gents, thank you for coming on.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:00.439)
Thanks for joining us.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:01.439)
Thanks for having us.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:03.439)
Yeah, thanks for having us.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:06.100)
Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:07.100)
First voice was Solomon and the second voice was Daniel Jordan there.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:11.300)
Just to be clear on who everybody sounds like.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:13.759)
So I'm sure everyone is interested in the full story and I'd like to get into your intentions
Unknown Speaker (00:08:22.779)
and how you came up with this.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:28.500)
But where would you like to start?
Unknown Speaker (00:08:32.139)
What's foremost on your all's mind?
Unknown Speaker (00:08:35.379)
So Andrew is the one actually who introduced, this is Barry speaking, Solomon, Andrew is
Unknown Speaker (00:08:41.820)
the one who introduced me to Knowledge Fight about almost like two years ago, roughly.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:50.059)
And so I kind of want him to start that part of the story and then I'll kind of jump in
Unknown Speaker (00:08:56.419)
when it seems relevant.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:58.419)
Sure.
Unknown Speaker (00:08:59.419)
Andrew, you did not appear on Project Camelot as a performer, as it were, but you were more
Unknown Speaker (00:09:10.100)
conceptually crafting some of the idea from my understanding.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:15.899)
So I'm a pretty long time listener.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:20.259)
I'd say I've been listening for about three years and at Thanksgiving, two years ago,
Unknown Speaker (00:09:26.379)
all the cousins were hanging out, introduced Barry to the show and told him in particular
Unknown Speaker (00:09:31.419)
there were some episodes that he might have a particular interest in, more of a sci-fi
Unknown Speaker (00:09:36.740)
angle to them called Project Camelot.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:40.379)
And sort of that was the introduction and we kind of just went from there and a few
Unknown Speaker (00:09:47.539)
months later, I believe it was an episode 200.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:51.220)
In fact, I know it was an episode 200 of yours.
Unknown Speaker (00:09:55.379)
Jordan makes an offhand comment about wouldn't it be great to have a Squatch murder mystery
Unknown Speaker (00:10:03.539)
or something to that effect and introduced that to Carrie.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:07.940)
And so that just sort of rattled around in my brain and I just couldn't get rid of it
Unknown Speaker (00:10:12.419)
and brought the idea up to Barry and we sort of just went from there in terms of the origin
Unknown Speaker (00:10:21.980)
story is that's pretty much it came from you guys actually.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:26.899)
That's one of the bizarre things that we who accidentally created.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:33.500)
But if everybody walked around turning offhand things that I said into real life, I would
Unknown Speaker (00:10:39.220)
have left a swath of destruction on this planet behind me.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:42.620)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:10:43.620)
And I would like to say too that if you had only done like some form of that, like a Squatch
Unknown Speaker (00:10:51.120)
murder mystery that was like an elaborate joke or a prank or something, I would not
Unknown Speaker (00:10:56.899)
probably want to have a conversation with y'all because I think if it was what you did
Unknown Speaker (00:11:02.600)
was purely prank based, there's kind of a harshness and a cruelty to it.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:07.940)
But it was so clear from listening to the way that information was conveyed, the way
Unknown Speaker (00:11:14.899)
that there was a very concerted effort to make sure that when you talk about aliens
Unknown Speaker (00:11:20.860)
and stuff, there wasn't monolithic groups of them.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:24.899)
It was so clear that there was something else behind it.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:27.580)
There was messaging behind it.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:30.419)
And when did that develop?
Unknown Speaker (00:11:32.820)
How did that idea develop as you were going from Sasquatch murder mystery to what ended
Unknown Speaker (00:11:39.740)
up becoming the reality?
Unknown Speaker (00:11:41.620)
Well, Barry, I mean, I'll just say there was a definite theme, at least in the beginning
Unknown Speaker (00:11:47.299)
of a Jewish alien and both obviously Barry and I are Jewish and not practicing particularly
Unknown Speaker (00:11:55.220)
for myself, I'll say.
Unknown Speaker (00:11:56.899)
But that was a sort of road that we decided to go down.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:00.899)
And I will say before we get into it is some parts of Berg were intentionally absurd to
Unknown Speaker (00:12:10.340)
both directions.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:11.500)
So it was, you know, he had leftist ideas, but at the same time, you know, he was forced
Unknown Speaker (00:12:17.419)
to wear sort of the garb maybe of a right winger.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:21.059)
So, but Barry, do you want to sort of take it away?
Unknown Speaker (00:12:24.460)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:25.460)
So, you know, my conception, you know, I, we were talking about, you know, the references
Unknown Speaker (00:12:31.779)
to Squatch, you know, in episode 200 and saying like, well, you know, we should involve Squatch
Unknown Speaker (00:12:38.179)
somehow.
Unknown Speaker (00:12:39.179)
And when I was about 11, so first of all, backstory, when I was a kid, like in my like
Unknown Speaker (00:12:46.580)
three teen years and teens, I was like, I believed in a lot of UFO stuff and Roswell
Unknown Speaker (00:12:55.019)
and the Grays and, or rather I wanted to, you know, I was like, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:03.100)
And you know, I was always into science fiction and, and kind of the bigger cosmic picture.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:09.659)
And I, you know, but, but being a kid, you know, you don't really, you're not really
Unknown Speaker (00:13:14.700)
trained yet to like discriminate, you know, sources you know, so as, as a, as a, an 11
Unknown Speaker (00:13:23.259)
year old, I used to enjoy buying weekly world news from, you know, the drug store.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:30.460)
And I remember one time, you know, in like fifth grade, I was, you know, browsing the,
Unknown Speaker (00:13:36.580)
the, you know, magazine aisle and picked up the weekly world news.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:40.139)
And there was a story in there about a farmer siding one saucer landing and like an army
Unknown Speaker (00:13:47.659)
of Sasquatches walking out.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:50.220)
So the implication being that these Squatches were in fact alien.
Unknown Speaker (00:13:57.299)
And so that was kind of in the back of my head when Andrew bought Squatch.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:02.379)
And immediately I kind of suggested, well, what if Squatch is kind of a pseudo Jewish
Unknown Speaker (00:14:08.299)
space alien, like from a diaspora people and, you know, our, our human characters who became
Unknown Speaker (00:14:15.379)
Solomon Berg would be like a Jewish Randy Cramer, like a Jewish super soldier.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:21.580)
Who also looks up to Randy Cramer, of course, as a hero.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:25.100)
And that's funny because when Terry brought up Randy and some of the discrepancies between
Unknown Speaker (00:14:31.259)
my story and his, my response to her in part three in our third interview was essentially,
Unknown Speaker (00:14:36.740)
well, Randy's older than me.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:38.059)
He was on Mars before me, you know, the perfect logical explanation within the absurd context.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:44.220)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:45.220)
And even in the first one, you're talking about like, he was a soldier.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:49.220)
I'm in like support Corps.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:51.100)
Like there is a built-in explanation.
Unknown Speaker (00:14:54.820)
So I did actually study anthropology in college.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:00.620)
I, anyway, I went from being like a preteen or a teenager who really hardcore believed
Unknown Speaker (00:15:05.620)
to, by the time I was 18, I was more of a rational skeptic, both off the materialist.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:12.419)
And I studied anthropology in college, although I did not become an anthropologist in practice.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:20.139)
I'm sure everyone wants to know what Solomon Berg's actual day job is.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:26.940)
I am an outpatient therapist and the director of a mental health clinic.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:32.419)
Interesting.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:33.419)
So I do therapy.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:34.820)
I supervise staff who provide therapeutic and behavioral services to adults and children.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:44.899)
I'm a social worker by training.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:48.779)
You know, I, I used to be like a one-on-one, you know, with kids, what they call TSS, therapy
Unknown Speaker (00:15:54.419)
support staff.
Unknown Speaker (00:15:55.419)
And then I was a blended case manager and I did child welfare.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:00.100)
You know, it's interesting that makes sense actually, you know, I wouldn't have guessed
Unknown Speaker (00:16:04.659)
it, but it makes sense.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:05.659)
The ability to empathically or empathetically communicate with Carrie the way that you did.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:11.419)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:12.419)
And then on top of that, the history of studying anthropology makes sense because there was
Unknown Speaker (00:16:16.960)
a lot of stuff that it's like, well, this would be hard to just like cram and then be
Unknown Speaker (00:16:23.460)
able to discuss in a, in a conversational manner.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:27.259)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:28.259)
Only a theropolanthropologist can do this.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:33.220)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:34.220)
Or someone at least with, with some, some background in anthropology.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:39.139)
So, you know, transition from anthropology undergrad to work in human services is not
Unknown Speaker (00:16:45.659)
all that uncommon.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:47.980)
You know, I ended up going back to grad school and we'll get going to grad school and getting
Unknown Speaker (00:16:54.940)
my MSW.
Unknown Speaker (00:16:58.580)
And now I have a couple more letters after my name but I don't want to get too specific
Unknown Speaker (00:17:04.579)
because I don't want anyone to like identify me personally, but when the, during the time
Unknown Speaker (00:17:13.980)
that I was in grad school, I also got very actively involved in a lot of like radical
Unknown Speaker (00:17:22.819)
left street organizing, direct actions, and some labor organizing.
Unknown Speaker (00:17:28.460)
As you can see by the tattoo, I had to, so actually my best experience in democracy was
Unknown Speaker (00:17:34.779)
I was a founding member of the Philadelphia IWW.
Unknown Speaker (00:17:38.779)
And early on when we formed the branch, we, I was involved in writing a bylaw that clarified
Unknown Speaker (00:17:48.779)
the definition of a boss who was not allowed to join IWW and wrote this amendment that,
Unknown Speaker (00:17:56.819)
you know, we passed and later forced me to leave the organization when I became a boss.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:03.779)
I still consider myself an anarchist.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:06.059)
I still consider myself ideologically an anarchist, although it's a little hard to practice anarchism
Unknown Speaker (00:18:12.460)
when I am upper management.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:15.940)
These are the rubs, you know, it's, well, you know, you gotta, in capitalism you have
Unknown Speaker (00:18:21.859)
to survive and then I had to survive by moving up and, you know, I'm good at what I do and
Unknown Speaker (00:18:27.380)
I love doing it.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:30.900)
You don't have to be a hypocrite too, like you can take your position and deal with people
Unknown Speaker (00:18:35.700)
underneath you in a way that you would approve of.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:39.940)
You know, like there are ways that you can do it better than someone else perhaps, but
Unknown Speaker (00:18:45.619)
maybe not ideologically pure to some.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:48.740)
I'm probably one of the lesser evil bosses.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:53.460)
For now that's good enough.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:57.859)
Yeah you did.
Unknown Speaker (00:18:58.859)
I was involved in- You'll be second against the wall when the
Unknown Speaker (00:19:02.099)
revolution comes.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:06.700)
You can tell he supports trans youth from his deeply held positions.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:13.339)
So that was actually my statement to Carrie.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:16.980)
That was an ad lib and I was exaggerating slightly, I have been a state's witness in
Unknown Speaker (00:19:23.019)
child abuse cases and I have worked with children who were trafficked or groomed or otherwise
Unknown Speaker (00:19:31.299)
sexually exploited, but it's not like that broken up child trafficking rings or some
Unknown Speaker (00:19:36.180)
high level stuff like that, it was more like I was an advocate for kids.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:42.940)
Well I'm not going to make a movie about you then.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:47.619)
It's a frustrating conversation to have with Carrie and we've had it so many times with
Unknown Speaker (00:19:51.980)
her both on the show and off the show.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:58.759)
She communicated in a way that it was like a string of right wing talking points.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:06.420)
You mentioned Barry's patience, it was amazing and it was required and every method of communicating
Unknown Speaker (00:20:18.140)
with her, even getting her attention at first was incredibly difficult and she became erratic
Unknown Speaker (00:20:25.980)
in terms of communication and in terms of her requirements and so it was a patience
Unknown Speaker (00:20:33.299)
testing operation.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:35.660)
That's where I would like to ask this question.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:38.460)
How did you begin to talk to Carrie?
Unknown Speaker (00:20:41.420)
What was the process for getting on the show like?
Unknown Speaker (00:20:44.240)
We contacted her first on Telegram and I had drafted some kind of manic statements about
Unknown Speaker (00:20:55.819)
my eye opening experiences with extraterrestrials and with beings she might know as the Sasquatch
Unknown Speaker (00:21:03.220)
or Yeti and when she proved to be kind of hard to get her attention on Telegram, we
Unknown Speaker (00:21:14.539)
actually switched to WhatsApp.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:16.420)
So I was communicating with her through WhatsApp primarily.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:21.500)
It took months to get any response at all from her after initially reaching out through
Unknown Speaker (00:21:27.900)
the channels that she had designated as how to get a hold of me, reach out to me here,
Unknown Speaker (00:21:32.740)
X, Y, Z and it was just not working.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:35.500)
I can empathize a tiny bit with her situation because even as like for me it's difficult
Unknown Speaker (00:21:41.140)
to you know I can't get back to everybody who sends an email and I'm sure that the things
Unknown Speaker (00:21:45.500)
that she gets from people are substantially closer to I know Sasquatch than the emails
Unknown Speaker (00:21:52.359)
that I get like I'm sure she hears a ton of you know various claims.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:57.380)
And her Telegram channel is literally a non-stop garbage fire as are her online distribution
Unknown Speaker (00:22:04.980)
methods so like she has a rumble and as a sort of a fun thing we would go back and read
Unknown Speaker (00:22:09.940)
some of the comments both on her Facebook lives, her rumbles on her website and it is
Unknown Speaker (00:22:16.660)
just a neo-nazi dumpster fire.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:19.220)
Yeah, a lot of people didn't like you guys.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:21.700)
Oh yeah, we took a lot of flack on Reddit.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:27.980)
I could not stand to look at those comments.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:30.940)
I did follow the conversation among Wonks on Reddit and Discord but I didn't engage.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:37.859)
I never never interacted with anyone who was discussing Burger Squatch.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:43.140)
I just observed and held back and practiced some incredible self-restraint which was kind
Unknown Speaker (00:22:50.259)
of difficult at times but I imagine the desire to defend yourself must have been huge.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:57.019)
Or to tell like this is the point of this thing, this is the point of this thing while
Unknown Speaker (00:23:02.500)
people are speculating.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:03.500)
And they're telling us that we're ruining our own favorite podcast.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:07.980)
When it actually figured out I was a social worker there was one Reddit thread that put
Unknown Speaker (00:23:14.380)
the pieces together or they were like speculating or like because someone was like he does sound
Unknown Speaker (00:23:20.339)
like maybe he actually works in the field of anthropology and someone else was like
Unknown Speaker (00:23:25.819)
no he sounds more like someone who took four years of anthropology as an underground then
Unknown Speaker (00:23:31.019)
went on to some kind of human service field like maybe a social worker or an advocate
Unknown Speaker (00:23:35.619)
or something.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:36.619)
That was Andrew.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:37.619)
No, there were some shockingly close guesses.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:43.180)
That one blew my mind.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:45.180)
I was honored and laughed so hard.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:50.099)
Another one that blew my mind and this is mostly from well it's actually all three times
Unknown Speaker (00:23:54.980)
that he appeared on Kerry's show.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:57.180)
She very earnestly I think at the end said made sure that he would be receiving and we
Unknown Speaker (00:24:05.299)
heavily encouraged all communications that Kerry received to pass those messages along
Unknown Speaker (00:24:12.019)
and boy that is a treasure trove of stuff because those are only the people who are
Unknown Speaker (00:24:16.900)
the most true believers sending her please send him the phone number of this person who
Unknown Speaker (00:24:22.059)
has the you know the antidote to the the toxins that that he's suffering from or and so on.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:28.380)
Someone gave us Stella Emmanuel's phone number actually.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:33.140)
That's important.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:34.140)
That's important.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:35.140)
You need that.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:36.140)
Stella from Infowars.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:37.140)
I wanted to say doctor's recommended.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:39.019)
Yeah she'll clear you of the demons and make sure you don't get any more vaccines.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:42.900)
It's gonna be great.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:44.619)
Yeah exercise the spirit of the reptile venom.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:48.059)
Yeah I didn't see and I granted I probably didn't look too deeply.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:53.019)
I didn't see a lot of like biggity comments about your appearance but there were a fair
Unknown Speaker (00:24:58.660)
amount that like it was pretty clear that the message that you were putting into your
Unknown Speaker (00:25:05.059)
story about your experience with Squatch didn't resonate as they say with them and it was
Unknown Speaker (00:25:11.900)
too empathetic and too caring in some ways and it was just like this is bullshit.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:18.299)
This guy he's not seen an alien.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:22.700)
This guy doesn't want a million people to die.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:27.660)
Yeah it was kind of gate keepy almost even of that space.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:32.740)
Well but that goes to you know actually my whole theory of Carrie and I think Andrew
Unknown Speaker (00:25:37.859)
and I have a somewhat different appraisal of Carrie than you and Jordan might.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:43.940)
Well I mean you have more first-hand experience so I would be interested to hear.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:49.140)
We would speculate you know how much of a true believer versus a grifter is Carrie right
Unknown Speaker (00:25:55.859)
and by the end of this experience my impression is that I think Carrie has her own beliefs
Unknown Speaker (00:26:03.940)
about the secret space program and UFOs and aliens and stuff and maybe some of that is
Unknown Speaker (00:26:11.099)
very influenced by like Oceana Dean and obviously Mark Richards and kind of her go-to sources
Unknown Speaker (00:26:17.500)
although I think she and Oceana Dean have always sort of superficial things in common
Unknown Speaker (00:26:22.940)
or Oceana Dean's conception is much more new agey and Carrie's is much more like militant
Unknown Speaker (00:26:32.059)
you know sci-fi-ish but I but I think Carrie I think Carrie sees herself as the curator
Unknown Speaker (00:26:39.539)
of the weird.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:40.539)
I think she sees herself as a kind of gatekeeper and she sees it as her mission to sort through
Unknown Speaker (00:26:47.740)
the 80% of bullshit to get to that 20% of truth and I think I did do some research and
Unknown Speaker (00:26:57.099)
uncovered some things about her former partner Bill Ryan and his involvements with something
Unknown Speaker (00:27:05.940)
called Project Serpo which was a host engineered by a guy named Rick Doty who appears from
Unknown Speaker (00:27:13.420)
as far as I can tell to have been a former Air Force office of special investigations
Unknown Speaker (00:27:19.579)
officer who was like a you know cold warrior propagandist who was part of you know during
Unknown Speaker (00:27:26.900)
the Cold War the the intelligence community and military intelligence were very concerned
Unknown Speaker (00:27:33.980)
about the community of alien abduction believers and UFO people because they felt it posed
Unknown Speaker (00:27:41.380)
a security risk that you know these were gullible people who now had access to increasingly
Unknown Speaker (00:27:46.700)
sophisticated you know surveillance technology and were trying to uncover things about UFOs
Unknown Speaker (00:27:54.740)
that actually might have led them to chance upon like actual real stuff the military was
Unknown Speaker (00:28:00.180)
working on like communication systems and stuff like that and they felt that Soviet
Unknown Speaker (00:28:08.339)
infiltration could happen right that was their concern they felt that this group of people
Unknown Speaker (00:28:13.180)
could easily be cultivated as as foreign assets by you know Soviet or you know Chinese intelligence
Unknown Speaker (00:28:22.660)
and so there were counter surveillance programs conducted by the government on these communities
Unknown Speaker (00:28:28.660)
much as there were you know like similar to COINTELPRO you know against like anti-war
Unknown Speaker (00:28:34.619)
and black liberation movements so you know to the extent that this group feels they've
Unknown Speaker (00:28:41.180)
been persecuted well you know there is some truth to that because people like Doty were
Unknown Speaker (00:28:47.819)
involved in engineering hoaxes and gaslighting private citizens and this you know if there's
Unknown Speaker (00:28:56.380)
a good documentary called Mirage Men by Mark Pilkington that goes into this that is worth
Unknown Speaker (00:29:02.259)
to watch did you know so you're saying I know I know that I'm sorry this guy worked with
Unknown Speaker (00:29:09.259)
Bill Ryan on something is that what you're saying I think there's one degree of separation
Unknown Speaker (00:29:14.700)
between Carrie Cassidy and Rick Doty and that that is Bill Ryan because Bill Ryan was the
Unknown Speaker (00:29:20.779)
webmaster for this the Project Serpo which was a a hoax that claimed I don't think he
Unknown Speaker (00:29:28.180)
knew it was a hoax I think he was duped by Doty in the late 80s at a UFO conference by
Unknown Speaker (00:29:36.059)
a ufologist he had manipulated and then he had to fight his way out of the conference
Unknown Speaker (00:29:41.339)
so no no no he wasn't at the conference himself but his cover got blown and I think at that
Unknown Speaker (00:29:46.779)
point you know the Air Force Office of Special Investigations cut ties with him and he kind
Unknown Speaker (00:29:52.259)
of hitched his star to like coast to coast am and the UFO community and became you know
Unknown Speaker (00:29:59.700)
went from being an actual government propagandist to just another grifter and he's actually
Unknown Speaker (00:30:06.019)
been on coast to coast am you know on like one I think one of the shows he was on was
Unknown Speaker (00:30:11.099)
the same show as like Whitley Stryber was on and but but I know that I I'm pretty sure
Unknown Speaker (00:30:16.539)
he he manipulated and do Bill Ryan so I don't know if he and Carrie had actually ever met
Unknown Speaker (00:30:23.019)
but one thing Doty would always say was you know 80% of what I say is lies 20% is truth
Unknown Speaker (00:30:30.019)
and that's how you sell a lie is you package it with truth that's right I think that Alex
Unknown Speaker (00:30:36.740)
some kind of osmosis well I think there's some kind of osmosis Terry probably internalized
Unknown Speaker (00:30:43.099)
that maybe Bill Ryan repeated it to her or something like that but I think that's the
Unknown Speaker (00:30:47.180)
way Carrie sees her content and I think that Harry doesn't actually believe any of the
Unknown Speaker (00:30:54.099)
very contradictory stories that her guests tell like I don't think she believed you know
Unknown Speaker (00:31:00.099)
Captain Jay one bit you know I there seems to be like a there seems to be like a whole
Unknown Speaker (00:31:09.420)
industry sort of grown up around Carrie of yes and tinker and obviously we participated
Unknown Speaker (00:31:16.660)
in that but I've noticed when she has guests on her show they sort of let her they just
Unknown Speaker (00:31:25.180)
kind of let her go they let her speak and they say wow yes Carrie really you know and
Unknown Speaker (00:31:30.259)
so when I when we first started listening to her through knowledge fight I thought for
Unknown Speaker (00:31:35.299)
sure she was a true believer I thought we were both very and I'm pretty sure close to
Unknown Speaker (00:31:40.299)
100% belief and I think by the end of the whole project we're both at 0% we don't think
Unknown Speaker (00:31:45.819)
she believes I'm very close to zero I'm even closer to zero just because she's a grifter
Unknown Speaker (00:31:53.859)
at the end of the day either way it's that's low I see I think I if I understand very correctly
Unknown Speaker (00:32:02.380)
what you're saying is that she is willing to enter or like she doesn't believe the bullshit
Unknown Speaker (00:32:08.700)
that she lets her guests spew like when Eddie is like you're about 80 and you know right
Unknown Speaker (00:32:14.140)
oh yeah right she still believes weird space stuff it's not like she's in reality and is
Unknown Speaker (00:32:21.960)
grifting outside of reality she believes from reality but whatever yeah yeah whatever whatever
Unknown Speaker (00:32:29.240)
will make her the most money I think is what she believes and I think from my experience
Unknown Speaker (00:32:33.980)
she's motivated by money and attention and influence and I think that there is a like
Unknown Speaker (00:32:41.539)
when she's from what I've seen when interacting with a guest who's making a claim kind of
Unknown Speaker (00:32:46.960)
goes along with it for the most part unless it interacts with something that Mark Richards
Unknown Speaker (00:32:53.140)
says said or Ashiana Dean like if it contradicts those kinds of things then there will be some
Unknown Speaker (00:32:58.460)
pushback but other than that it's just I'll believe anything kind of yeah right and she's
Unknown Speaker (00:33:04.019)
she writes her own stories like and I don't know if we if you ever saw the third time
Unknown Speaker (00:33:08.819)
we went on her show but when I watch I will say I watched about the first hour of it and
Unknown Speaker (00:33:14.019)
then I had to move on to something else and I never got back to finishing it so I apologize
Unknown Speaker (00:33:18.980)
that's fine something that she that she mentioned though was sort of characterizing Berg's initial
Unknown Speaker (00:33:25.660)
or characterizing a prior statement that he had made about it was specifically about Israel
Unknown Speaker (00:33:33.059)
and whether Israel had was run by the Anunnaki and Berg had very clearly said yes there's
Unknown Speaker (00:33:40.099)
some Anunnaki in the Israeli government just like there's some Anunnaki in any you know
Unknown Speaker (00:33:45.259)
any government and the issue was not necessarily with the people of Israel but a very select
Unknown Speaker (00:33:51.299)
number of people in the government turned into later in the in the last episode Israel
Unknown Speaker (00:33:57.140)
is completely run by the Anunnaki and I remember from your prior interview when you said that
Unknown Speaker (00:34:03.819)
Israel is completely run by the Anunnaki which is the exact opposite of what he said I went
Unknown Speaker (00:34:08.539)
back and watched the video and it's like that's just social you're right she'll push back
Unknown Speaker (00:34:12.860)
in certain things and some things she'll just rewrite in the moment because the audience
Unknown Speaker (00:34:17.619)
that she's speaking to is and I submit you know insert and we're never going to fully
Unknown Speaker (00:34:23.539)
deconstruct Carrie's anti-semitism I would characterize her as having as an average white
Unknown Speaker (00:34:31.219)
lady with average white lady racism an average white lady anti-semitism filtered through
Unknown Speaker (00:34:36.900)
UFOs and conspiracy theories but when you know when she I've watched some of her other
Unknown Speaker (00:34:43.739)
stuff and she has gone so far and I think even one of your episodes covered this she's
Unknown Speaker (00:34:49.300)
gone so far as to say that Jews have Anunnaki blood or that Jews are descended from Anunnaki
Unknown Speaker (00:34:57.340)
so she's literally saying Jews are lizard people yeah and there's a there's a tradition
Unknown Speaker (00:35:03.059)
throughout some of this paranormal community stuff that I'm not sure exactly where it traces
Unknown Speaker (00:35:10.179)
back to but you know there are some schools in it that just believe that Hebrew peoples
Unknown Speaker (00:35:16.099)
come from space you know like there is and that does not exist for like people of Hispanic
Unknown Speaker (00:35:23.900)
descent you know like that doesn't exist within these paranormal and alien world views there
Unknown Speaker (00:35:30.340)
isn't there that isn't described to other groups there is a uniqueness to the anti-semitism
Unknown Speaker (00:35:35.900)
that gets filtered within this right because of Jews historical connection to you know
Unknown Speaker (00:35:43.860)
religious texts that are you know canonically part of first mainstream Christianity I think
Unknown Speaker (00:35:50.699)
there's there's if you're trying to integrate mainstream Christianity with some kind of
Unknown Speaker (00:35:57.300)
pseudo materialist you know understanding of the cosmos then it's kind of you know if
Unknown Speaker (00:36:03.780)
you're if you're raised in even a vaguely anti-semitic culture and maybe you're not
Unknown Speaker (00:36:09.539)
fully aware of it there is that kind of knee-jerk or compulsive you know go-to of like well
Unknown Speaker (00:36:18.139)
you know maybe you know the Hebrews of the Old Testament were influenced by aliens or
Unknown Speaker (00:36:25.460)
descended from aliens or engineered by aliens or I actually remember one of part of my journey
Unknown Speaker (00:36:32.179)
in my teens from being a believer to a skeptic involved going to the thrift store where years
Unknown Speaker (00:36:38.099)
ago I had discovered the Von Daniken books and finding another book with a very similar
Unknown Speaker (00:36:44.699)
cover from the same publisher called The Lost Tribes from Outer Space and the original French
Unknown Speaker (00:36:51.300)
title was The Jews from Space and it was actually somewhat when I read it the ideas in it were
Unknown Speaker (00:37:01.900)
somewhat similar to like Raëlism, Raëlianism but way more anti-semitic and of course the
Unknown Speaker (00:37:08.940)
first you know chapter of the book explains why it's not anti-semitic yeah oh yeah and
Unknown Speaker (00:37:16.860)
somebody who's been reading a lot of John Birch Society materials in the last like couple
Unknown Speaker (00:37:21.340)
years I will say that the most anti-semitic and racist books often start with a chapter
Unknown Speaker (00:37:26.679)
about how they are not anti-semitic and racist yeah you might need that for a library fight
Unknown Speaker (00:37:30.980)
I gotta say that sounds like it needs to be on the shelf if you find a copy of The Jews
Unknown Speaker (00:37:35.579)
from Space I'll send it to you that would be awesome my mom just sent me a guidebook
Unknown Speaker (00:37:40.340)
for the Masons that apparently like her great uncle was in the Masons and so now I have
Unknown Speaker (00:37:46.179)
a little it looks almost like the size of a pocket constitution but it's much bigger
Unknown Speaker (00:37:52.019)
and it's a guidebook for the Masons and it's mostly like here's how you fold a shirt it's
Unknown Speaker (00:37:58.460)
the right way to do it for a Mason it's no it is not secretive at all it is boring as
Unknown Speaker (00:38:05.860)
shit here's where you place the candles okay go for it what were you gonna say like like
Unknown Speaker (00:38:16.579)
like the the trappings Kerry's trappings was was was very important and it was one of the
Unknown Speaker (00:38:21.420)
things that I thought Barry did a great job on was he knows her he knows the knowledge
Unknown Speaker (00:38:27.400)
fight coverage of Kerry's various iterations like almost probably better than you guys
Unknown Speaker (00:38:33.059)
remember it I mean so he would use he would use yeah I mean he was using you know he would
Unknown Speaker (00:38:40.579)
insert her story back at her and have those trappings which enabled him to get the messaging
Unknown Speaker (00:38:47.260)
in and so I thought that was a really important part of it like you know telling the story
Unknown Speaker (00:38:52.300)
of the what was it the dogs Barry the the mercantile dog story and that was right reference
Unknown Speaker (00:39:03.039)
back to her stuff was the key to her heart and it let you in and then that's where you
Unknown Speaker (00:39:09.260)
could sort of it's like your own stuff it gives her the feeling of like being influential
Unknown Speaker (00:39:15.000)
and important and then at the same time it also like it creates a scenario where in order
Unknown Speaker (00:39:19.820)
for her to contradict you she has to contradict herself kind of and that's exactly that's
Unknown Speaker (00:39:24.820)
a bizarre place to be in and I think Terry you know has just enough self-consciousness
Unknown Speaker (00:39:31.340)
that like she knows there are certain things she can't push back on when she has a Jewish
Unknown Speaker (00:39:37.539)
guest because there were things I could stay over the show that she couldn't push back
Unknown Speaker (00:39:43.539)
on I was laughing she was presenting me as an expert she was presenting me as a scientist
Unknown Speaker (00:39:51.460)
so one thing you didn't mention this on your show but one thing if you watch the full cut
Unknown Speaker (00:39:57.780)
videos one thing that has always heard to me in science fiction fantasy is the conflation
Unknown Speaker (00:40:04.659)
of race and species by writers and it's essentially just scientific racism and it reinforces racism
Unknown Speaker (00:40:10.900)
in the real world when like oh Babylon 5 you know the Narn in the centauria race is not
Unknown Speaker (00:40:15.659)
species no they're species they evolve on different planets they are not genetically
Unknown Speaker (00:40:21.099)
related they cannot hybridize they are alien species not alien races and this is a trope
Unknown Speaker (00:40:28.619)
in sci-fi and fantasy but we're focusing mostly on sci-fi right now because that's the more
Unknown Speaker (00:40:35.300)
you know scientific of the racisms and and so Kerry was having me on presenting me as
Unknown Speaker (00:40:42.460)
an expert anthropologist an expert in human evolution and biology and biological and cultural
Unknown Speaker (00:40:49.659)
anthropology so she couldn't are quite argue with my expert opinion because she was hosting
Unknown Speaker (00:40:56.860)
me live without the ability to edit and she and I don't know she didn't know why she does
Unknown Speaker (00:41:04.619)
that yeah that is that does seem unwise they also know so much it's not great editorial
Unknown Speaker (00:41:11.420)
judgment yeah yeah for sure but anyway hold on let me just finish real quick so pardon
Unknown Speaker (00:41:17.300)
me so that's all right so um my my point being um she one thing I kept doing when she would
Unknown Speaker (00:41:25.579)
say race and she was referring to alien species was I would say species you mean species and
Unknown Speaker (00:41:30.940)
at one point I what I broke it down a couple times for her we're talking about biological
Unknown Speaker (00:41:35.980)
species not race race is not assigned to the concept and there's one point where she kept
Unknown Speaker (00:41:40.219)
saying race and I kept saying species species until she started self-correcting I somehow
Unknown Speaker (00:41:46.699)
don't remember that that's fascinating I I happened several times it was something that
Unknown Speaker (00:41:52.619)
Berg was extremely 100% consistent on because when I talked to Kerry because I have that
Unknown Speaker (00:41:59.820)
background in in biological anthropology um I would insert a lot of real scientific terminology
Unknown Speaker (00:42:08.099)
yeah that's what I was getting at you know the the environmental cataclysm on prehistoric
Unknown Speaker (00:42:13.900)
earth was the Toba catastrophe that's a real theory about um how there was a bottleneck
Unknown Speaker (00:42:20.420)
a genetic bottleneck in human population about like I don't know like in 74,000 years ago
Unknown Speaker (00:42:26.260)
or something like that that due to massive super volcanic eruptions and you know like
Unknown Speaker (00:42:32.019)
99% of humans and I human as a genus not a singular species homosapiens at the time um
Unknown Speaker (00:42:40.860)
you know got wiped out and you know a handful of you know homosapiens and neanderthals and
Unknown Speaker (00:42:47.500)
you know uh flores homo flores and just another isolated human groups survived that bottleneck
Unknown Speaker (00:42:55.619)
and and humanity really almost went extinct so there was a lot I was loading onto her
Unknown Speaker (00:43:02.179)
that was actual real science or at least good theory um again you know 80% uh truth 80%
Unknown Speaker (00:43:13.500)
lie 20% true right right so and because I was familiar you know had a basic familiarity
Unknown Speaker (00:43:20.940)
with the subject material I could pull off being the expert she was presenting me at
Unknown Speaker (00:43:26.539)
right so hold on hold on hold on a second you know you stop because you gotta stop
Unknown Speaker (00:43:36.619)
I want to know that specifically how much of that is something how much of the story
Unknown Speaker (00:43:41.900)
did you guys have coming into it and how much of it is improvisation in the moment and I'm
Unknown Speaker (00:43:46.980)
gonna ask my question was your intention to also mirror that 80 20 rule where the 80%
Unknown Speaker (00:43:55.860)
is the squatch aliens and the stuff like that and then the 20 is the real science the what
Unknown Speaker (00:44:02.139)
you're describing about the scientific racism yeah the scientific racism of the species
Unknown Speaker (00:44:07.800)
race uh like conflation that is exactly what I was talking about about the monolithic nature
Unknown Speaker (00:44:14.619)
of these these races it's the thing it's a really good way and a better way to put exactly
Unknown Speaker (00:44:20.619)
the complaint about like all draco are grumpy or whatever you know like that that uh that
Unknown Speaker (00:44:26.699)
that she she asked me aren't the trods um not a positively oriented species and my response
Unknown Speaker (00:44:36.380)
was well carrie they react with hostility to human encroachment but I wouldn't say they
Unknown Speaker (00:44:41.199)
are not a positively oriented species I don't know every trod yeah and then it like denies
Unknown Speaker (00:44:48.380)
cause and effect almost to look at people that way there's little nuances as well like
Unknown Speaker (00:44:54.380)
I believe the trogs that as I conceived them when we were writing the the plot to answer
Unknown Speaker (00:44:59.179)
that question at least on the plot the general plot was written um I I'm Barry hasn't really
Unknown Speaker (00:45:04.519)
said it but Barry's writer Barry Barry's sci-fi I've written three unpublished sci-fi novels
Unknown Speaker (00:45:10.619)
I've gotten nearly published I've I've sold a story to a radio show I'm working on getting
Unknown Speaker (00:45:16.460)
my novels published but with my current schedule it's hard for me to do submissions and agent
Unknown Speaker (00:45:21.980)
queries sure but there was nuance to a lot of different things that she didn't pick up
Unknown Speaker (00:45:26.500)
on because she couldn't possibly have because they were things that came out of barrier
Unknown Speaker (00:45:30.820)
my head so like the the trogg in my brain um was actually sort of a world of warcraft
Unknown Speaker (00:45:37.239)
inspired um idea uh and you know sort of I never played the game but I I know some of
Unknown Speaker (00:45:42.739)
the some of the stories and um so when she was grilling Barry on you know aren't the
Unknown Speaker (00:45:48.780)
trogs more like um you know the way this other one of my other guests said and you know we
Unknown Speaker (00:45:55.739)
Barry could say well you know uh I can only tell you what I can tell you uh and then there
Unknown Speaker (00:46:01.019)
was ad-libbing sections on top of the of the storyline where we just had the rough outline
Unknown Speaker (00:46:06.239)
of he's gonna meet a lizard he's you know they're gonna do this thing but there's not
Unknown Speaker (00:46:10.280)
necessarily gonna be uh a very charismatic lizard it's like uh how they wrote Curb Your
Unknown Speaker (00:46:16.400)
Enthusiasm you know like there's a basic idea and then uh go from there you meet a
Unknown Speaker (00:46:20.780)
lizard what happens next for guffman well that's I mean that's fascinating to me because
Unknown Speaker (00:46:26.739)
like obviously I guess it has to be written because there's so many specifics of of the
Unknown Speaker (00:46:32.219)
way that you you guys laid out the story and it was presented but at the same time it does
Unknown Speaker (00:46:37.440)
feel like you Barry rolls so well with um the questioning that Carrie is is putting
Unknown Speaker (00:46:44.699)
forth and like being able to wiggle through situations like I I was uh I I wouldn't describe
Unknown Speaker (00:46:51.179)
myself as having been a theater kid exactly but I did do a lot of like improv comedy and
Unknown Speaker (00:46:57.219)
serious dramatic serious classes and that is not surprising and I did used to act in
Unknown Speaker (00:47:03.260)
school plays and stuff um I I was mr toad in my third grade teachers um at the willows
Unknown Speaker (00:47:11.340)
now within the willows hell yeah the general rule was the general rule was yes and though
Unknown Speaker (00:47:16.980)
I mean the general rule was if if Carrie states it has fact and it's not something you did
Unknown Speaker (00:47:22.079)
not follow that rule then well the rule was definitely in my mind um I mean I wasn't you
Unknown Speaker (00:47:30.940)
know working it out algorithmically in my head but I always kind of kept going back
Unknown Speaker (00:47:37.340)
to that grain of truth and that was also part of the messaging about like trans rights and
Unknown Speaker (00:47:43.659)
trying to give practical real you know advice that deconstructs some of her um toxicity
Unknown Speaker (00:47:50.300)
and bigotry and to be clear when I say yes and a lot of those yes ands are in the form
Unknown Speaker (00:47:55.860)
of no buts so it's it's it's allowing what she's saying and just slightly correcting
Unknown Speaker (00:48:01.219)
right and that's that's kind of the thing that I find very interesting about this is
Unknown Speaker (00:48:05.780)
because you're going on to this show and it's fundamentally a conflict before it begins
Unknown Speaker (00:48:10.940)
right you're going on the show specifically because the show is wrong and you're going
Unknown Speaker (00:48:16.460)
on the show in order to agree with her into not believing what she believes anymore right
Unknown Speaker (00:48:22.300)
right now is this targeted at her or at her audience or were you guys just throwing this
Unknown Speaker (00:48:28.179)
out there as an experiment to see if you could even do it it was an experiment and I will
Unknown Speaker (00:48:33.139)
say two different answers no it was an experiment we had no idea what was going to happen but
Unknown Speaker (00:48:40.380)
I will say like as an example for Carrie specifically and Barry already touched on it but in the
Unknown Speaker (00:48:45.420)
third episode she was self she was not only self-correcting to species while Barry was
Unknown Speaker (00:48:50.380)
still there I saw her on another interview she did with Patriot Front self-correcting
Unknown Speaker (00:48:56.019)
herself or sorry Patriot Underground like all the Nazis get confusing but basically
Unknown Speaker (00:49:01.420)
they you know it was it was she was self-correcting herself now without Berg there and so she
Unknown Speaker (00:49:06.780)
got very defensive of Berg in that interview so it was it was a like I don't know like
Unknown Speaker (00:49:12.099)
hour and a half to hour interview and she's talking about all her normal stuff COVID and
Unknown Speaker (00:49:18.460)
the vax and all that but then at about 54 minutes into this interview with Patriot Underground
Unknown Speaker (00:49:24.380)
they bring up Berg and Patriot Underground watched the third episode and had some questions
Unknown Speaker (00:49:31.500)
but his first question had to do with you know what part of the story we told Carrie
Unknown Speaker (00:49:36.380)
about you know Berg's activities involved going to Brazil to train Brazilian astronauts
Unknown Speaker (00:49:41.579)
on first contact procedures and while he was in Brazil he learned about this character
Unknown Speaker (00:49:46.820)
Mal Chenix who is an Anunnaki bounty hunter who you know murdered indigenous activists
Unknown Speaker (00:49:56.260)
in the rain forest a lot predator and then takes out a bounty on squash and I had said
Unknown Speaker (00:50:02.340)
that Mal Chenix has worked for the Bolsonaro government and and Berg had been working for
Unknown Speaker (00:50:10.539)
his name is Silva I believe the current president he's a Baptist he's a he's a better guy and
Unknown Speaker (00:50:17.099)
Patriot Underground's problem in his first question was well isn't Bolsonaro the good
Unknown Speaker (00:50:23.059)
guy I mean one of our good dudes but what about you know how can how can you know isn't
Unknown Speaker (00:50:29.980)
Bolsonaro a white hat we like Bolsonaro and you know that was how it launched into this
Unknown Speaker (00:50:36.619)
discussion of Berg where Carrie got very similarly defensive of Berg as she gets of Mark Richards
Unknown Speaker (00:50:45.059)
but she specifically it's an interesting watch you should watch it yeah I'll check that out
Unknown Speaker (00:50:50.780)
for sure I usually tune out anything else she does and it's 54 minutes in you can skip
Unknown Speaker (00:50:57.940)
to the 54 minute mark and be right there where and in this video she she makes a couple kind
Unknown Speaker (00:51:08.699)
of almost woke points where she's like well Berg may be more quote unquote more of a Democrat
Unknown Speaker (00:51:16.219)
than a Republican which obviously is very eventual I'm not right I'm a leftist I don't
Unknown Speaker (00:51:22.659)
even consider Democrats really leftists I'm much more aligned with like Sophia from Mars
Unknown Speaker (00:51:29.260)
to you recently had on your show sure that's much more on that ideologically but you know
Unknown Speaker (00:51:36.099)
to her there's only Democrats and Republicans and Berg is more of a leftist and she defends
Unknown Speaker (00:51:41.460)
this by saying well Berg has been to other planets he's been to space so of course he's
Unknown Speaker (00:51:46.019)
not going to have a provincial worldview and then she calls out mainstream Christians because
Unknown Speaker (00:51:53.219)
Carrie is very anti-church she definitely believes in God and Satan but she's sort of
Unknown Speaker (00:51:58.780)
anti-religious I think she believes in Satan for sure yeah and but she was talking about
Unknown Speaker (00:52:05.699)
how you know if there is a God and I believe there's a God she believes there's a God I
Unknown Speaker (00:52:10.260)
don't believe there's God but she was saying if there is a God God's not just God of this
Unknown Speaker (00:52:15.139)
earth God made aliens too whoa and of course of course and and she kind of implies that
Unknown Speaker (00:52:23.579)
like that broader perspective is why Berg maybe has these left-wing views and aligns
Unknown Speaker (00:52:30.940)
with as she put it LGB whatever she's extremely dismissive of LGB rights she can't even finish
Unknown Speaker (00:52:39.139)
the braids off edu without saying what another area I would highly recommend you watch is
Unknown Speaker (00:52:45.059)
actually the end of the third episode I couldn't believe some of the philosophical U-turns
Unknown Speaker (00:52:51.780)
she almost makes after they discuss in that interview she unknowingly quoted Marx and
Unknown Speaker (00:52:59.579)
said religion is the opiate of the masses yeah I mean she believes or she at least utters
Unknown Speaker (00:53:06.460)
some things sometimes that I don't know that she actually holds like in her head because
Unknown Speaker (00:53:12.579)
there were some some of the some of the sort of I don't I don't remember the specifics
Unknown Speaker (00:53:17.179)
to be honest but in that third episode I know you only watched the first hour I'm encouraging
Unknown Speaker (00:53:20.699)
you to watch the last hour which I was the first hour sort of the first hour really like
Unknown Speaker (00:53:26.420)
is what got my she clearly doesn't believe her and without the story and scenes right
Unknown Speaker (00:53:34.940)
and it builds and she basically ends up saying you know I don't know how to put it but basically
Unknown Speaker (00:53:42.699)
she's she just kind of loses the loses the thread they get off the story and they just
Unknown Speaker (00:53:49.980)
start sort of philosophizing and I thought it was actually one of the most interesting
Unknown Speaker (00:53:54.780)
I wanted to understand Kerry better as a person and I think we get to we sort of get to that
Unknown Speaker (00:53:59.739)
at the very very end and I don't know if it's because of the ruse that we pulled which is
Unknown Speaker (00:54:05.340)
you know about around his illness which was sort of drawing sympathy out of Kerry but
Unknown Speaker (00:54:11.860)
there was a distinct change near the end and you know and so back to your original question
Unknown Speaker (00:54:18.579)
you know was this targeted at Kerry or her listeners I you know I don't think we had
Unknown Speaker (00:54:23.300)
a strong plan but it certainly affected her I think in the very end calculus because we
Unknown Speaker (00:54:28.980)
didn't internalize some some anti-oppressive narratives obviously she's still a raging
Unknown Speaker (00:54:34.500)
anti-semite sure who believes that Jews are lizard people and lizard people run Israel
Unknown Speaker (00:54:41.019)
and to be clear I'm not a fan of the Israeli government I'm not defending you know apartheid
Unknown Speaker (00:54:45.940)
there but they're not lizards ability to differentiate between Jewish and Israelis very talented
Unknown Speaker (00:54:53.460)
yeah I think I think a lot of folks in her community have that exact difficulty the what
Unknown Speaker (00:55:01.420)
you're talking about the there is exactly why I think that what you're doing or what
Unknown Speaker (00:55:09.739)
you did is worth like having a conversation with you as opposed to leaving it unspoken
Unknown Speaker (00:55:18.559)
and that is the the ability or at least the experiment that you undertook seems to be
Unknown Speaker (00:55:26.659)
geared at is it possible to make those behavioral changes by introducing correct information
Unknown Speaker (00:55:35.260)
with that 80% of you know fun space shit thrown in and I'm I'm curious about when that became
Unknown Speaker (00:55:44.659)
an idea that you were going to pursue and whether it felt like that was possible when
Unknown Speaker (00:55:52.900)
you started the first interview did you feel like that was something that was going to
Unknown Speaker (00:55:57.619)
even be in the cards well so we weren't I don't think we were really expecting to be
Unknown Speaker (00:56:06.820)
invited back but she wanted to know about Mars and Jordan you wanted to know about Mars
Unknown Speaker (00:56:14.380)
you wanted to know more about Mars so we knew we had to do a follow-up and we did it you
Unknown Speaker (00:56:20.860)
know a few weeks later which you know maybe it was a little too soon it was it was three
Unknown Speaker (00:56:24.659)
months actually and like I like I said you know if we could do it again we wouldn't do
Unknown Speaker (00:56:32.500)
the Lionel calls you know that was that was an error on our part and like I said earlier
Unknown Speaker (00:56:38.300)
when we were not recording neither Andrew or I are professional comedians and getting
Unknown Speaker (00:56:44.820)
critical feedback on joke structure from professional comedians hey you took improv classes you
Unknown Speaker (00:56:51.179)
said you did some improv yeah I took improv classes and I did some performances but like
Unknown Speaker (00:56:56.619)
I was ironically I was the kind of guy laughing on stage and couldn't keep my ship together
Unknown Speaker (00:57:04.079)
and yet I was able to film like in total maybe like six or seven hours to carry without without
Unknown Speaker (00:57:10.539)
breaking character or laughing I've almost choked when I'm telling her about the demons
Unknown Speaker (00:57:15.739)
in part three you know that was very hard for me not to laugh the entire time all three
Unknown Speaker (00:57:23.780)
episodes were shot in my apartment and so I had to watch all three I was not allowed
Unknown Speaker (00:57:32.179)
to be in the same room but I also had to observe this all without laughing and stifling my
Unknown Speaker (00:57:38.380)
laughs when I did laugh which was many many times but I want to talk about the the timing
Unknown Speaker (00:57:43.360)
and the scheduling so the initial June we we sort of did our initial touch with her
Unknown Speaker (00:57:49.500)
we were invited back in September and I think the excitement of wanting to answer a lot
Unknown Speaker (00:57:53.260)
of Jordan's questions specifically but but really both of you was was like we were excited
Unknown Speaker (00:57:58.659)
to like this is why this is dangerous is because it's like you're communicating with us through
Unknown Speaker (00:58:03.780)
her yeah and we got carried away but you know Barry had the glyphs because Jordan wanted
Unknown Speaker (00:58:10.340)
to see those glyphs you know and so yeah we got a lot of negative feedback after the second
Unknown Speaker (00:58:18.340)
episode and I will say also our a relative of ours a common relative passed away a very
Unknown Speaker (00:58:25.099)
important relative in our lives and that was one of the reasons why we took not a problem
Unknown Speaker (00:58:29.500)
but but also at least somewhat you know this whole thing weirdly enough I like to think
Unknown Speaker (00:58:35.059)
as a is sort of in her honor and and as far as set dressing some of the items on the desk
Unknown Speaker (00:58:43.219)
you know were related to her and people in our family also there's actually a book in
Unknown Speaker (00:58:48.940)
part two there's on the shelf there's a book that my great uncle his grandfather owned
Unknown Speaker (00:58:56.099)
about like hoaxes and scams and skepticism that's really that's really cool so our our
Unknown Speaker (00:59:05.739)
my great aunt's grandmother was I mean she was sort of a she identified herself several
Unknown Speaker (00:59:12.500)
times to me as a non-reaver you know we had our own internal very skeptical and you know
Unknown Speaker (00:59:19.420)
we were kind of raised in a very humanistic Jewish tradition yeah we had our own internal
Unknown Speaker (00:59:24.539)
jokes too like and they were not fair to be fair they were knowledge fight jokes you know
Unknown Speaker (00:59:29.340)
like Alex eating sandwiches during breaks and things like that yeah and just having
Unknown Speaker (00:59:33.699)
having having Berg eat a sandwich just nonchalantly during the interview was kind of a pushing
Unknown Speaker (00:59:41.260)
the envelope transgressed right Terry so Andrew said to me at one point months after we did
Unknown Speaker (00:59:48.460)
this when we were prepping for our part three or no after we had done part three that he
Unknown Speaker (00:59:53.579)
thinks Terry is very bad at confrontation and that it actually made us feel a little
Unknown Speaker (00:59:59.739)
bad in hindsight because you know bird rolls that joint on her show and lights up having
Unknown Speaker (01:00:08.019)
you know claimed that he quit tobacco and referred earlier to the martian psychoactive
Unknown Speaker (01:00:13.539)
herb that the teenage caveman soldier smoked well and that Andrew Jordan hit the pipe when
Unknown Speaker (01:00:19.340)
you found it that was very dangerous and she doesn't say anything like hey what are you
Unknown Speaker (01:00:26.659)
doing you're doing you're doing drugs on my show um you know California right it's cool
Unknown Speaker (01:00:33.059)
yeah but also I mean obviously like a lot of conservatives smoke pot um and I don't
Unknown Speaker (01:00:41.019)
think Carrie necessarily has a problem with weed but um you know this uh the fact that
Unknown Speaker (01:00:47.420)
it went uncommented was uncommon yeah yeah yeah that's kind of where I would like to
Unknown Speaker (01:00:56.500)
go with that next is that that conversation about uh you know 80 80 20 you know in this
Unknown Speaker (01:01:05.260)
situation you're going to meet her on her playing field so to speak but in that vein
Unknown Speaker (01:01:12.900)
you know how is it that you are how is it that you're not like feeling a mix of am I
Unknown Speaker (01:01:18.860)
offending this person when I'm not laughing do you know what I mean I'm having an ingenuine
Unknown Speaker (01:01:25.059)
interaction with this person and I'm doing it in such a way that I am aware they are
Unknown Speaker (01:01:30.219)
not so I'm taking advantage of that mismatch in information and I don't I just I'm just
Unknown Speaker (01:01:35.619)
interested to see if that is something that you like uh feel bad about or or even care
Unknown Speaker (01:01:40.260)
about a serious consideration for me because of my you know the work I do and my training
Unknown Speaker (01:01:47.699)
in my ethics and you know I I do have to uphold a certain code of ethics social worker um
Unknown Speaker (01:01:55.780)
you know before the first interview I had a an audio conversation with Carrie a long
Unknown Speaker (01:02:02.980)
conversation with her through you know WhatsApp call um and during before I spoke with her
Unknown Speaker (01:02:11.500)
I said to Andrew if I get even a whiff that Carrie is not mentally stable this we're calling
Unknown Speaker (01:02:18.380)
this off that's good and it would be inappropriate for me as a professional who diagnoses people
Unknown Speaker (01:02:26.179)
clinically who I have direct interaction with to state what my clinical impressions were
Unknown Speaker (01:02:34.300)
of Carrie um but I don't think that she is in any significant way I don't think she has
Unknown Speaker (01:02:44.699)
any kind of psychosis or anything like that I I she might maybe have some maybe some borderline
Unknown Speaker (01:02:50.980)
narcissistic tendencies but you know she's not she's not like a um hey most of us on
Unknown Speaker (01:02:58.699)
a bad day we've all got yeah she's not a vulnerable person in the way that like I think if you
Unknown Speaker (01:03:08.099)
weren't taking with and I think if you were taking advantage of her this would be like
Unknown Speaker (01:03:13.539)
a wholly different conversation you know like or this conversation wouldn't be happening
Unknown Speaker (01:03:18.659)
but also what you guys uh were like the actual show itself I think it would have felt a lot
Unknown Speaker (01:03:25.139)
different if if there was a yeah she she pushed that uh especially in the last episode but
Unknown Speaker (01:03:31.619)
but um in terms of um oh Berg you're sick tell us your website where can people go to
Unknown Speaker (01:03:37.219)
give you money um what do you need my community cares a lot and one of the things with the
Unknown Speaker (01:03:43.780)
yeah with the with the emails that we were getting forwarded from her supporters uh a
Unknown Speaker (01:03:48.539)
genuine I would say two to three and Barry can talk on it after I mean two to three dozen
Unknown Speaker (01:03:53.860)
emails genuinely concerned for the major and how who he needed to call right away and how
Unknown Speaker (01:04:02.019)
much money he needed to raise to get these ingredients to eat that would cure his illness
Unknown Speaker (01:04:06.940)
I mean it was it was a genuine outpouring from her supporters just to clarify because
Unknown Speaker (01:04:11.940)
and obviously we never took her up on the offer to fundraise because we felt that it
Unknown Speaker (01:04:17.300)
would have been absolutely wrong oh yeah financial she'd exploit her viewers in any way I would
Unknown Speaker (01:04:22.980)
say that we could not we were that was never something to even consider um I didn't even
Unknown Speaker (01:04:29.460)
respond to it I just ignored it when she she said that yeah and just to clarify really
Unknown Speaker (01:04:35.360)
quick because we didn't cover the third interview on the show and some people probably didn't
Unknown Speaker (01:04:39.800)
hear it you all sort of made an exit uh from Carrie you know there was a this isn't gonna
Unknown Speaker (01:04:46.539)
happen again uh so after we did the second interview Andrew and I decided that we were
Unknown Speaker (01:04:54.260)
gonna do a third interview because Carrie had asked us to come back but Berg was going
Unknown Speaker (01:05:00.980)
to be away for a while and inaccessible so what I did was I didn't respond I didn't even
Unknown Speaker (01:05:08.059)
go on whatsapp I didn't check obviously my phone would inform me if Carrie was messaging
Unknown Speaker (01:05:13.579)
me but I didn't go into the app so there was no you know double check mark you know like
Unknown Speaker (01:05:19.739)
the message having been received for months I would say maybe for like I don't know eight
Unknown Speaker (01:05:24.460)
or ten months um initially initially we wanted to do we initially we had we had we had always
Unknown Speaker (01:05:31.579)
talked about a three-part well you're sci-fi dorks uh everything's intelligent and but
Unknown Speaker (01:05:36.940)
but the initial plans and this was way back was to have a basically an agent come in and
Unknown Speaker (01:05:43.940)
shoot or in some other way kill her sure sure yeah we've all seen student films I totally
Unknown Speaker (01:05:51.679)
get it it makes sense it was actually inspired by um there's an episode of the X-Files where
Unknown Speaker (01:05:58.980)
Mulder is showing Scully uh videotape of an alien autopsy and the and Scully's like oh
Unknown Speaker (01:06:05.860)
this looks so fake and then like a bunch of armed men break in and murder the the scientists
Unknown Speaker (01:06:11.820)
who are dissecting the alien and it's like clear that it's not fake so that was kind
Unknown Speaker (01:06:16.139)
of what I was thinking was like we want to have you know this interrupted interview that
Unknown Speaker (01:06:21.260)
would end abruptly and the screen would go to to black and maybe Berg's phone would fall
Unknown Speaker (01:06:27.659)
and hit a button and you belong the city would play or something like that see that's interesting
Unknown Speaker (01:06:35.139)
but that's dangerous yeah that's really I think that in Project Camelot world that is
Unknown Speaker (01:06:40.139)
dangerous because you could become too important to part of the lore yeah if you did that and
Unknown Speaker (01:06:46.579)
pulled it off that's part of the reason why we were discussing it and Andrew had said
Unknown Speaker (01:06:53.380)
you know we have to have some kind of big reveal um you know like Squatch is pregnant
Unknown Speaker (01:06:59.219)
or something like that and my and we were talking about your spitballing and I said
Unknown Speaker (01:07:04.699)
to Andrew what if Berg is dying and we were like okay what does he say he's dying of and
Unknown Speaker (01:07:13.460)
I was like reptile then but but but one of the one of the one of the very important things
Unknown Speaker (01:07:22.059)
we felt about the very end was that and and this is still part of our plan is we're sending
Unknown Speaker (01:07:28.059)
a letter to carry to her P.O. box which has on it essentially a scrap of paper from Daniel
Unknown Speaker (01:07:36.059)
Jordan which tells her that this the major is dead and that he died of COVID and that
Unknown Speaker (01:07:43.420)
he would not Daniel Jordan participate in COVID denialism and so you know believe what
Unknown Speaker (01:07:49.139)
you will carry but a great man is dead and he died of COVID-19 and he died because yeah
Unknown Speaker (01:07:56.380)
yeah we thought if we left if we left it up to her she would take the narrative and turn
Unknown Speaker (01:08:01.659)
it and she still might frankly even you you do have to you do have to maintain control
Unknown Speaker (01:08:07.739)
of that character this will become a vaccine yeah she can't she can't have the have that
Unknown Speaker (01:08:12.980)
knowledge of or she can't you know be allowed to take control of that one of the reasons
Unknown Speaker (01:08:18.539)
we reached out to you was because you know this is science fiction and people come back
Unknown Speaker (01:08:22.779)
from the dead all the time in science fiction and we wanted to be very clear that we were
Unknown Speaker (01:08:27.659)
not going to you know pull a spot right right as it were we're not coming back there's not
Unknown Speaker (01:08:34.220)
going to be you know a fourth Berg episode we're not gonna I think this is an important
Unknown Speaker (01:08:41.739)
thing to point out too is you guys sent us an email like a couple of weeks ago now um
Unknown Speaker (01:08:48.579)
and we did not interact or like there was no contact between us uh before that and I
Unknown Speaker (01:08:55.380)
kind of expected that we would never hear from you all but it would just be something
Unknown Speaker (01:08:59.319)
we were aware that it was very clearly like connected in some way to our podcast um but
Unknown Speaker (01:09:07.600)
like that it was like we'd never touched base and I'm glad that you did reach out yeah our
Unknown Speaker (01:09:14.060)
original intention that was a late development in the game our original intention was we
Unknown Speaker (01:09:20.260)
were just not going to break space bird okay it just we were not going to break character
Unknown Speaker (01:09:26.979)
we were going to let this simmer we were going to leave it leave it dangling as he said um
Unknown Speaker (01:09:33.180)
but on further reflection we felt a little bit manipulative and decided it was courteous
Unknown Speaker (01:09:42.619)
to reach out to you and explain ourselves a little bit and assure you that Berg is not
Unknown Speaker (01:09:49.819)
coming back from the dead that he's been killed off off screen um you know he he died a tragic
Unknown Speaker (01:09:57.899)
death and he will not be making any further appearances on project Camelot and um you
Unknown Speaker (01:10:04.819)
know one of the the things you know when I was following the conversations on Reddit
Unknown Speaker (01:10:10.260)
and Discord which obviously I know you guys aren't in the Reddit you're not in the Discord
Unknown Speaker (01:10:15.640)
and for good reason clearly um well we just get overwhelmed and uh cry a lot yeah we just
Unknown Speaker (01:10:22.779)
started posting on Instagram and it's already going terribly for me it's going great for
Unknown Speaker (01:10:27.460)
me it's it's funny because Reddit seems to love squat but hate bird um which is only
Unknown Speaker (01:10:36.760)
natural you know but uh Reddit so so on the internet conversation among the wonks centered
Unknown Speaker (01:10:45.939)
around this concept of the quote unquote prime directive which obviously refers to your guidance
Unknown Speaker (01:10:53.739)
never to call into Alex's show or you know try to prank Alex or mess with info wars or
Unknown Speaker (01:11:01.140)
go out of um your way to interact with Alex because that would just play into his game
Unknown Speaker (01:11:10.260)
and would only get pulled in and bolster him and his voice and there's a question about
Unknown Speaker (01:11:16.859)
whether um the prime directive applies to Karen can I clarify something really quick
Unknown Speaker (01:11:22.619)
please clarify please clarify in terms of coming not from you this is coming from red
Unknown Speaker (01:11:29.060)
so in terms of the what they there are a lot of wonks called the prime directive I don't
Unknown Speaker (01:11:34.460)
really want to tell people how to behave and I don't really I think it's my place to say
Unknown Speaker (01:11:40.819)
hey don't prank people or whatever I think a lot of pranks are cruel and unnecessary
Unknown Speaker (01:11:46.939)
so I'm personally not thrilled with them but the the guidance and the request to not call
Unknown Speaker (01:11:53.020)
into Alex's show and fuck with him was based on the fact that we were studying Alex and
Unknown Speaker (01:11:59.579)
that if people called into Alex's show and tried to mess with him in a way that would
Unknown Speaker (01:12:05.180)
play to us it would oh that's all right but it would alter what we're studying and then
Unknown Speaker (01:12:14.699)
it would become like a snake eating its own tail and become meaningless so I didn't want
Unknown Speaker (01:12:20.220)
people to mess with Alex for that reason that it would it ruined the purity of of what we
Unknown Speaker (01:12:25.739)
were looking at with Carrie it's less important but it is very important that people don't
Unknown Speaker (01:12:32.460)
be cruel to her and make a joke of her if you were if what you were doing was like she's
Unknown Speaker (01:12:38.720)
the butt of a joke I think that it would probably violate oh we never would have been very direct
Unknown Speaker (01:12:44.939)
we wouldn't we wouldn't even you know that wouldn't have shown up on on our show but
Unknown Speaker (01:12:48.859)
in terms of spirit in terms of that kind of framework I don't know if it exists as much
Unknown Speaker (01:12:54.539)
in Project Camelot because you know like everything's nuts to begin with yeah the way I and the Prime
Unknown Speaker (01:13:01.880)
Directive itself as it's called is gone basically I mean because like I mean I was part of the
Unknown Speaker (01:13:07.659)
trial yeah there's no there's nothing we can do now yeah I was frustrated for the most
Unknown Speaker (01:13:13.439)
often violated law in the Star Trek first it is an ironic name for something you don't
Unknown Speaker (01:13:21.340)
want people to yeah because there's a higher ethical good or there's a higher moral reason
Unknown Speaker (01:13:26.739)
to get involved and and be kind of I will say I will say the the ability for two kids
Unknown Speaker (01:13:34.979)
me and Barry to just to completely destroy a discord in terms of like oh I think it's
Unknown Speaker (01:13:41.699)
the greatest thing ever I think it's the worst thing ever they ruined the show Dan would
Unknown Speaker (01:13:46.060)
have Dan would not approve Dan would approve Jordan would not approve Jordan would approve
Unknown Speaker (01:13:50.939)
I mean it's it's unbelievable the drama well I guess we can settle that yeah for the discord
Unknown Speaker (01:13:56.859)
we're fine yeah I mean I think the reason that I approve is because of the the experimental
Unknown Speaker (01:14:05.420)
progressive aspect like because I think that that is something that is a framework that
Unknown Speaker (01:14:11.819)
is not understood we don't know the answer to the question of like can you get people
Unknown Speaker (01:14:17.579)
to have better opinions by entering the superficial space that their bad opinions come from if
Unknown Speaker (01:14:26.939)
you like being good yeah if you give up on the conversation and you give up on a section
Unknown Speaker (01:14:33.100)
of people you can't expect them to change and so even if you're even if the things that
Unknown Speaker (01:14:38.680)
you have to say will only convince a small percentage of people if you give up on it
Unknown Speaker (01:14:42.479)
you're not going to succeed and I'm not a I'm not a radical but I am a leftist and I
Unknown Speaker (01:14:47.579)
do believe in like incremental change and I do believe that giving up communicating
Unknown Speaker (01:14:52.100)
your beliefs to even the most extreme groups is sometimes not the best strategy because
Unknown Speaker (01:14:57.739)
you can pull people back from the brink and if you're not going to engage in certain spaces
Unknown Speaker (01:15:03.539)
it's not like anti-semites aren't going to like it's not like they're gonna leave it
Unknown Speaker (01:15:08.100)
alone because they don't believe in aliens or something you know like it's it's a place
Unknown Speaker (01:15:12.819)
where a lot of that stuff can fester yeah I mean the the central question that is kind
Unknown Speaker (01:15:18.539)
of being asked here is I mean Dan pointed it out just there you know every community
Unknown Speaker (01:15:23.859)
that we're seeing now is getting infiltrated with fucking Nazis left and right because
Unknown Speaker (01:15:29.260)
they're really because they're willing to at the spot where the community is at whereas
Unknown Speaker (01:15:37.640)
it is it is impossible realistically to say I am going to be a straightforward honest
Unknown Speaker (01:15:44.140)
person and I'm going to meet this person about aliens on their own space because you are
Unknown Speaker (01:15:51.659)
fundamentally lying to this person right away like the moment you say hello you are lying
Unknown Speaker (01:15:57.640)
so I'm interested in the idea of what is the difference between lying and just meeting
Unknown Speaker (01:16:03.920)
somebody where they're at that's that's a great question you know I I have to meet in
Unknown Speaker (01:16:16.979)
therapy when I'm doing 45-minute sessions with clients I hear a lot of racism and a
Unknown Speaker (01:16:22.100)
lot of anti-semitism and people will say anti-semitic things to a Jewish therapist and because they
Unknown Speaker (01:16:27.979)
expect well I'm not going to make it about me it's their session so they kind of will
Unknown Speaker (01:16:34.100)
sometimes abuse works and there's other guys you know it's I can't push back against every
Unknown Speaker (01:16:43.020)
time a client gets racist or I would lose that client but there's a difference between
Unknown Speaker (01:16:51.180)
putting up with it and joining in on the racism of the the patient that you're you're talking
Unknown Speaker (01:16:58.039)
to though you know right you have to find a way not to validate it and so for example
Unknown Speaker (01:17:03.500)
you know sometimes when white Christian you know Gentile clients of mine have made racist
Unknown Speaker (01:17:11.340)
comments or seem to expect me to validate their racism I have said things like you know
Unknown Speaker (01:17:17.340)
I have black clients too so I gear both sides and keep it at that kind of like gentle sort
Unknown Speaker (01:17:23.579)
of ribbing so where it's not like you know you fucking racist you know it's more like
Unknown Speaker (01:17:32.380)
yeah watch it because I want this office to be a safe space for everyone including you
Unknown Speaker (01:17:40.380)
and including my other clients and if you disrespect my other clients I might you know
Unknown Speaker (01:17:46.939)
go ahead Andrew what are you Andrew go for it for god's sakes go say you're a nice man
Unknown Speaker (01:17:55.579)
don't let anybody interrupt you anymore I was just gonna say gents I was just gonna
Unknown Speaker (01:18:04.300)
say you know I think like when Carrie has people on her show cause you know telling
Unknown Speaker (01:18:09.340)
her that she's a I can't remember the guy's name Apodon the guy that goes by that now
Unknown Speaker (01:18:16.500)
I always forget his name Eddie Page you know Eddie Page the racist alien telling her racist
Unknown Speaker (01:18:20.600)
stuff all the time of course she's gonna be surrounded by it and if there's no one else
Unknown Speaker (01:18:25.119)
saying the opposite stuff and so it is lying but at the same time if you're not in the
Unknown Speaker (01:18:30.180)
arena and and so it's like you have to be there there has to be some pushback and there's
Unknown Speaker (01:18:36.000)
not and it's just interesting that every single person that goes on to her show to grift is
Unknown Speaker (01:18:41.479)
from the right and like this there's no reason that necessarily that group has to be right
Unknown Speaker (01:18:46.880)
wing they're interested in space they're interested in UFOs the new UAP stuff it's a it's a big
Unknown Speaker (01:18:51.859)
group of political you know interest and I just you know for the right to have dominated
Unknown Speaker (01:18:56.840)
it for so long and and to still continue to dominate it today it's not necessary but yeah
Unknown Speaker (01:19:02.180)
I guess if you aren't a true believer or a grifter you do have to lie to get into the
Unknown Speaker (01:19:06.800)
space yeah it's it's that it's that idea right like of course the right will dominate that
Unknown Speaker (01:19:12.079)
space they have no problem with lying to these people and I mean that's not that's not a
Unknown Speaker (01:19:17.119)
left or right thing but it in terms of grifting you're gonna get more money by grifting people
Unknown Speaker (01:19:22.439)
towards the right you're not gonna you're not gonna get left-wing grift money very as
Unknown Speaker (01:19:26.880)
easily as you would the right we were we were worried about stolen valor even just just
Unknown Speaker (01:19:31.720)
even talking about using bring that up using the rankings on reddit brought up and my response
Unknown Speaker (01:19:38.600)
to that is you know do you have a problem when Tom Hanks plays a soldier but do you
Unknown Speaker (01:19:43.159)
have a problem with war movies like I have a problem with war period so we don't need
Unknown Speaker (01:19:48.239)
to worry about how I feel about stolen valor well here here's here's the way I thought
Unknown Speaker (01:19:52.600)
about it in the the context of this is that it it's almost impossible to take seriously
Unknown Speaker (01:20:00.760)
you're pretending to be a soldier or whatever SSP yeah within it you are acting like like
Unknown Speaker (01:20:09.760)
you said it yeah it very much seemed to me not a claim of position but a saying the role
Unknown Speaker (01:20:18.800)
for the purposes of the conversation it's not like you're trying to get a discount at
Unknown Speaker (01:20:23.000)
some place by claiming that you're a major it's just yeah now I'm not interested so I
Unknown Speaker (01:20:28.119)
don't know what's offensive what was that I'm not applying for veterans benefits I'm
Unknown Speaker (01:20:37.079)
not trying to you know get some kind of privilege or something by claiming that I was in the
Unknown Speaker (01:20:44.920)
Marines it was it was a it was a script it was a fiction I was involved in and and my
Unknown Speaker (01:20:52.239)
role was no different than you know an actor in a movie yeah can I ask you a question here
Unknown Speaker (01:20:59.920)
I think this would be I think I don't know you don't have an answer for it uh probably
Unknown Speaker (01:21:03.720)
but it would be very interesting this is a great setup it'd be a very interesting question
Unknown Speaker (01:21:07.479)
is there a difference between somebody who is a true believer saying exactly word for
Unknown Speaker (01:21:12.720)
word everything that you said to carry and somebody who like you who doesn't believe
Unknown Speaker (01:21:17.359)
what they're saying I don't know I never really considered that well doesn't intention play
Unknown Speaker (01:21:24.600)
into it I think isn't that I mean that's the question though when we're talking about meeting
Unknown Speaker (01:21:28.720)
people in this space yeah but the intention of like if you're lying to you know self-enrich
Unknown Speaker (01:21:35.239)
or you know abuse people in some way then that matters and if you're doing it for I
Unknown Speaker (01:21:41.319)
don't know why am I answering a question that was directed to you guys I'm sorry I liked
Unknown Speaker (01:21:45.439)
I liked the concept and I got to watch this firsthand of people lying at each other specifically
Unknown Speaker (01:21:50.899)
Barry and Carrie just lying at each other but but but in in a way that it had to be
Unknown Speaker (01:21:57.119)
mutual there had to be a give and a take and it was I mean I think it comes down to human
Unknown Speaker (01:22:03.340)
nature I guess um would there be a difference between what Barry did and someone who I don't
Unknown Speaker (01:22:10.140)
even know like a person who was like Barry if they were a true believer would either
Unknown Speaker (01:22:14.680)
be a real space like a an amazing thing or they would be mentally unstable and so for
Unknown Speaker (01:22:22.500)
Carrie to engage with the latter would be really fucked up and it for Carrie to engage
Unknown Speaker (01:22:27.479)
with the former would be incredible but does she really believe that no and so for her
Unknown Speaker (01:22:32.640)
to be able to engage at all it has to be this kind of weird mutual aid of lying to each
Unknown Speaker (01:22:38.640)
other that's really it was bizarre to observe yeah that's that's you know you it's it's
Unknown Speaker (01:22:45.260)
hard to hold on to that thought of of like her belief also dictates whether she is lying
Unknown Speaker (01:22:51.800)
or not yeah and I believe Carrie is a very superficial and transactional person very
Unknown Speaker (01:22:58.439)
transactional and in our interactions with Carrie we were giving her great content she
Unknown Speaker (01:23:05.439)
was getting views she was benefiting from this and I think because of like what your
Unknown Speaker (01:23:11.760)
views being somewhat controversial within her community in that space like I I would
Unknown Speaker (01:23:18.279)
assume that there's more engagement than a lot of other episodes that are just saying
Unknown Speaker (01:23:22.260)
the same thing that everyone already believes and so that's probably even more of an incentive
Unknown Speaker (01:23:28.000)
for her quite frankly so as far as this whole experiment goes right like I'm trying to
Unknown Speaker (01:23:35.319)
I'm trying to process it as a as a thing that you can then execute something from this information
Unknown Speaker (01:23:41.560)
we have and it's like I can't help but think is should we just train like 40 people in
Unknown Speaker (01:23:48.600)
how to be talking about the side like a psyop this is what I'm talking about that is exactly
Unknown Speaker (01:23:54.800)
what I'm talking about this stuff doesn't exist in these spaces that's what you've pretty
Unknown Speaker (01:23:58.920)
much proven right and there's no way that it will naturally evolve in these spaces because
Unknown Speaker (01:24:04.399)
it's based on entirely upon falsehoods so then we have to have a directed falsehood
Unknown Speaker (01:24:10.579)
team infiltrating all of these different spaces to put these ideas into action otherwise they
Unknown Speaker (01:24:15.800)
won't get in there period right but when I was a kid when I was a preteen and like a
Unknown Speaker (01:24:21.539)
middle schooler going online and reading about you know dracos and grays and roswell and
Unknown Speaker (01:24:28.960)
rentalsham and all that stuff you know I would follow the links and sometimes I would wind
Unknown Speaker (01:24:35.800)
up on anti-semitic pages and then I would experience cognitive dissonance and eventually
Unknown Speaker (01:24:44.119)
I convinced myself that there weren't alien visitors to earth and aliens hadn't engineered
Unknown Speaker (01:24:54.000)
humans in any way or gifted us with any kind of you know genetic or cultural you know surplus
Unknown Speaker (01:25:04.199)
I don't know if that's the right word for it but but we're not we're you know I became
Unknown Speaker (01:25:11.119)
a skeptic and materialist largely because I kept running into that fringe right which
Unknown Speaker (01:25:19.039)
was fringe then I wouldn't call it fringe now one thing you've got to consider is that
Unknown Speaker (01:25:25.439)
your average bush voter of 2004 became your average trump voter of 2016 and a line I think
Unknown Speaker (01:25:34.399)
a lot of people already maybe had an inclination toward believing in things like interdimensional
Unknown Speaker (01:25:42.119)
demons or you know you know that that you know the bible talks about ufos and other
Unknown Speaker (01:25:50.359)
other stuff that's only recently been brought to the surface because now the the mainstream
Unknown Speaker (01:25:57.439)
right is so thoroughly dominated by conspiracy theory lore and and there's such an overlap
Unknown Speaker (01:26:08.760)
between the propagandists and the conspiracy theorists to to touch back on jordan's question
Unknown Speaker (01:26:14.119)
I think maybe they wouldn't have been so bold in 2004 to say that stuff right all right
Unknown Speaker (01:26:19.640)
go for it yeah I think I think the answer is yes I think the answer is yes and I don't
Unknown Speaker (01:26:24.720)
think we need to send out 40 teams and if you think about you know the men who stare
Unknown Speaker (01:26:29.119)
at goats and all that stuff like there's already probably plenty of government folks already
Unknown Speaker (01:26:33.699)
thinking about how do you in a you know get into those communities how do you spread your
Unknown Speaker (01:26:38.060)
messages well yeah but I don't want them involved in these no no but how do you how do you introduce
Unknown Speaker (01:26:43.340)
the left leaning ideas into those communities and the answer is yes now I don't think you
Unknown Speaker (01:26:47.640)
need to recruit agents to go and do it but I do think that what I would encourage folks
Unknown Speaker (01:26:52.159)
to do is in your life in your personal life if you know someone who's a fringe person
Unknown Speaker (01:26:56.840)
if you know someone who's interested in the 10-foot aliens in Las Vegas if you know people
Unknown Speaker (01:27:03.119)
who are into those fringe things don't be don't shy away from engaging them in political
Unknown Speaker (01:27:09.520)
terms and on topics that are you know traditionally reserved for the right I would say you know
Unknown Speaker (01:27:15.760)
encourage that encourage dialogue with those folks don't ignore them because if you don't
Unknown Speaker (01:27:20.920)
inject it then it comes from nowhere yeah if you write people off you end up kind of
Unknown Speaker (01:27:26.399)
breathing a click or an echo chamber yeah and you surrender them to those other negative
Unknown Speaker (01:27:31.159)
voices exactly yeah that's really interesting people and they give up on society yeah well
Unknown Speaker (01:27:41.319)
one thing I'm curious about is we talked a little bit about like what you learned about
Unknown Speaker (01:27:46.239)
Carrie but I'm curious about like you guys experienced something that I think a lot of
Unknown Speaker (01:27:52.039)
people didn't and shouldn't and I'm curious what you learned like what did you walk away
Unknown Speaker (01:27:59.199)
with the most of like through first-hand experience of this this is the the resonant image the
Unknown Speaker (01:28:07.640)
resonant message the thing that's like oh damn that's nuts that you you came away with
Unknown Speaker (01:28:13.279)
the the the the thesis one at a time Andrew you go first because you do not have the courage
Unknown Speaker (01:28:19.119)
to burst through with an interruption and because I'm worried that darkness is about
Unknown Speaker (01:28:23.359)
to absorb you yeah there's a there's a thunderstorm like I've never seen in my life going on outside
Unknown Speaker (01:28:31.119)
right now from when we started recording to now it's just like almost pitch black in your
Unknown Speaker (01:28:36.720)
room yeah I would say the number one thing is the the profit motivation that I saw from
Unknown Speaker (01:28:43.479)
Carrie it was genuinely shocked not that shocking but there was it was not just her own desire
Unknown Speaker (01:28:51.000)
for profit but her platforming and engaging folks for their for their own profits and
Unknown Speaker (01:28:59.239)
it could even be as simple as something on one of her rumble videos or something where
Unknown Speaker (01:29:03.359)
someone's like you know buy this miracle medicine cure or some ridiculous thing and and just
Unknown Speaker (01:29:07.680)
her chiming in and yes it's really good and and being exposed to her telegram channels
Unknown Speaker (01:29:13.000)
and just the the absolute echo chamber that's in there that is all so obviously profit driven
Unknown Speaker (01:29:20.920)
that was something that I I knew from listening to your show that grifters grift but I didn't
Unknown Speaker (01:29:25.880)
really fully absorb how someone with a lot of eyeballs on their social medias just becomes
Unknown Speaker (01:29:33.039)
almost as it's they become so reliant on the eyeballs resulting in dollars and and it's
Unknown Speaker (01:29:42.079)
everything every agreement and disagreement ultimately with her it stemmed from whether
Unknown Speaker (01:29:47.640)
I think she thought she could profit off of it that was my main takeaway and so like even
Unknown Speaker (01:29:53.119)
to the point of like the the ideas and like everything like has a tinge of profit in it
Unknown Speaker (01:30:02.560)
that's a bummer like so for instance it won't matter if she watches this or if she listens
Unknown Speaker (01:30:08.399)
to this no because and no major solomonberg can squash and and find the threads you can
Unknown Speaker (01:30:18.720)
it's there for her if she were actually curious right I don't think she's a curious person
Unknown Speaker (01:30:25.720)
which is that's the bummer like you'd expect somebody who talks all of the time about space
Unknown Speaker (01:30:30.140)
shit to be really curious and have a great imagination and you know yeah but the yeah
Unknown Speaker (01:30:36.319)
imagine if Carl Sagan was just in it for the cash whatever pale blue dot my ass give me
Unknown Speaker (01:30:42.319)
the box that's I don't know if that's your takeaway Barry or or not but that's that would
Unknown Speaker (01:30:47.479)
be my secondary takeaway is her absolute lack of of curiosity and as uh as I think Jordan
Unknown Speaker (01:30:53.960)
put it in one of the episodes where you covered us um her lack of commitment or her lack of
Unknown Speaker (01:30:59.880)
investment in her own ideas like I had to remind her who the mercantile dogs were yeah
Unknown Speaker (01:31:07.159)
that's yeah she was confused by that momentarily and I I said well I believe you call them
Unknown Speaker (01:31:13.600)
canonians and then she had the recognition was like oh yes yes yes that is from my show
Unknown Speaker (01:31:21.399)
but do you think that that's because if she had an investment in it it would become clear
Unknown Speaker (01:31:27.479)
how incoherent everything is no I actually genuinely think she has a short attention
Unknown Speaker (01:31:33.840)
span and also keep in mind Carrie is like 70 roughly we think she's about 70 um yeah
Unknown Speaker (01:31:44.000)
you know she like one you never know with Canadians could be any age you know yeah you
Unknown Speaker (01:31:48.720)
never know so one thing that was frustrating about Carrie um other than her being an erratic
Unknown Speaker (01:31:54.560)
communicator she's one of these people who is like always late or struggles to be on
Unknown Speaker (01:32:00.399)
time um and um well she she's kind of a scatterbrain and and her I think she genuinely doesn't
Unknown Speaker (01:32:13.279)
look like there might I don't know maybe be a little bit of cognitive decline because
Unknown Speaker (01:32:20.600)
she's getting up there I mean she looks youthful for her age but when she reads on when she
Unknown Speaker (01:32:26.359)
when she's probably like no she's older than that and when she didn't she didn't respond
Unknown Speaker (01:32:32.239)
to uh us when we were setting up the third interview when she didn't get in touch with
Unknown Speaker (01:32:37.319)
us until like 15 minutes before the Iranian news time I actually started saying to Andrew
Unknown Speaker (01:32:43.039)
like hey you know something might happen she might have had a fall or something like that
Unknown Speaker (01:32:47.439)
you know that was something I had to consider is like she is you know my parents age or
Unknown Speaker (01:32:52.520)
a little maybe a little older and you know I'm starting to see them you know repeat themselves
Unknown Speaker (01:32:58.880)
sometimes and my mom's been having more falls and medical emergencies and you know that
Unknown Speaker (01:33:05.920)
so that's something you know keeping the fact that she is a person in mind yeah you know
Unknown Speaker (01:33:12.720)
she's not a cartoon she's not a you know I mean she's pretty horrible but she's not like
Unknown Speaker (01:33:17.800)
a a character yeah yeah she's not a thing she's an end of herself she she you know there's
Unknown Speaker (01:33:28.039)
every possibility that something could happen to her that would be unfortunate and and tragic
Unknown Speaker (01:33:34.239)
and and you know so I did actually kind of worry I was like well you know I know she
Unknown Speaker (01:33:40.000)
didn't you know have a fall or something or you know like I don't want that to happen
Unknown Speaker (01:33:45.119)
to her your empathy went into overdrive basically yeah but we don't we don't we don't hold anything
Unknown Speaker (01:33:53.319)
against Carrie I think you know she is who she is I don't think she's beyond redemption
Unknown Speaker (01:33:57.640)
I don't think we hold anything against her as a human being I think we're fascinated
Unknown Speaker (01:34:01.279)
by her but I also think that you know this our experiment at least for me proved to me
Unknown Speaker (01:34:07.119)
that she doesn't believe almost anything and sort of it actually it might I thought she
Unknown Speaker (01:34:12.479)
was a true believer and as we went on and on and on and got more and more absurd it
Unknown Speaker (01:34:17.000)
became more and more clear that it was just a profit-driven idea the fact that she didn't
Unknown Speaker (01:34:20.880)
hang up on you after the Lionel calls is like that to me says a lot because I would have
Unknown Speaker (01:34:26.239)
hung up on your ass so fast I mean the third episode gets more absurd to be frank like
Unknown Speaker (01:34:31.479)
that you know the devil is involved and there's a part of the reason I think Barry wrote that
Unknown Speaker (01:34:40.520)
in was to say like how far can I push this envelope like literally so now here's here's
Unknown Speaker (01:34:46.079)
my biggest question that I have this is something that's troubled me from day one day one I
Unknown Speaker (01:34:53.079)
think there are no heroes for the Squatch is maybe one of the most poetic beautiful
Unknown Speaker (01:35:00.000)
things I've ever heard was this improvised or did you write that so that actually I that
Unknown Speaker (01:35:07.960)
was just a review to great man heroes right I just hate great man that was kind of the
Unknown Speaker (01:35:18.600)
so it wasn't written just tossed it out at least for me right nice nice turn of phrase
Unknown Speaker (01:35:25.359)
in the moment that's well done yeah that's well done in into that's why I said it was
Unknown Speaker (01:35:30.479)
a Western construct which I think from Jordan a little bit because you know we're talking
Unknown Speaker (01:35:35.880)
about space but I was very specifically talking about this choreography you know theories
Unknown Speaker (01:35:42.000)
of history and sort of the the patriarchal aspect of you know storytelling in Western
Unknown Speaker (01:35:50.720)
civilization and you know the concept of what a hero is is maybe very individualistic and
Unknown Speaker (01:35:59.079)
arguably something that aligns more with capitalism and authoritarian structures maybe like you
Unknown Speaker (01:36:07.079)
know the Soviet Union then like my kind of brand of like anarcho socialism or Andrews
Unknown Speaker (01:36:14.840)
you know left progressivism you know that's no kings right no gods no kings no masters
Unknown Speaker (01:36:22.439)
right and so it was so much in the the I think the conversation where that came up was about
Unknown Speaker (01:36:30.680)
the Squatch being kind of a you know yeah yeah and in terms of like who's gonna save
Unknown Speaker (01:36:39.319)
the Squatch is it gonna be the reptiles or the Pleiadians and yeah that rebuke of that
Unknown Speaker (01:36:45.840)
idea is I get just I don't know I I mean we made a button with that you know the there's
Unknown Speaker (01:36:52.520)
no Squatch has no heroes yeah that's why it's unethical for us to not talk to you on the
Unknown Speaker (01:36:59.260)
show right we exploited each other yeah we have I mean we don't have merch we didn't
Unknown Speaker (01:37:03.720)
make any money on it we don't sell anything we gave it away but still we stole the turn
Unknown Speaker (01:37:08.720)
of phrase yes yeah well and we need you know we need to send you this oh a Squatch mask
Unknown Speaker (01:37:13.760)
okay the Gorilla Mask this is the Gorilla Mask that actually inspired the athlete for
Unknown Speaker (01:37:18.840)
Barry but it's all about also maybe selling some block in miles I am amazed I don't I
Unknown Speaker (01:37:27.359)
I've seen a lot of people speak off the top of their head and I've never heard a phrase
Unknown Speaker (01:37:33.340)
like the Squatch has no heroes so good anyway I will I will stop hammering on that I think
Unknown Speaker (01:37:41.119)
we should probably wrap this up because we've been going quite a while and I don't want
Unknown Speaker (01:37:45.920)
to monopolize all your time but before we do is there anything else that you wanted
Unknown Speaker (01:37:50.359)
to bring up is there anything else that like you think is important that you like the reason
Unknown Speaker (01:37:57.479)
I had alluded to earlier the reason that we gave him the name Solomon oh yeah Solomon
Unknown Speaker (01:38:03.560)
is the name of a king and Carrie has a thing for men who claim Arthurian lineage Project
Unknown Speaker (01:38:10.899)
Camelot right there Project Camelot Bill Ryan and Mark Richards well Bill Ryan for people
Unknown Speaker (01:38:16.960)
who don't know is supposedly descended from King Arthur right and Mark Richards thought
Unknown Speaker (01:38:22.720)
he was I don't know maybe the reincarnation of King Arthur or something or intended to
Unknown Speaker (01:38:27.039)
be the new right and so there's a there's a theme there with Carrie that she seems to
Unknown Speaker (01:38:35.279)
be enthralled by men with Arthurian or maybe kingly lineage and so that was why we named
Unknown Speaker (01:38:44.520)
Solomon Berg Solomon do you think that that like translated to her that that like subconscious
Unknown Speaker (01:38:50.880)
thing like actually like do you think she subconsciously got that no not necessarily
Unknown Speaker (01:38:59.119)
it was just sort of you know we were debating what is his name gonna be it's gotta be yeah
Unknown Speaker (01:39:04.020)
obviously very stereotypically Ashkenazi I was gonna say she's so anti-semitic that just
Unknown Speaker (01:39:10.399)
the name Solomon should be more than enough to get you across the finish line there Nebuchadnezzar
Unknown Speaker (01:39:15.520)
bird some of the names were the names were a lot of fun like Fiona Celine my cat's name
Unknown Speaker (01:39:21.840)
was Fiona she passed Lionel Sperlingetti whose are two cows names I read it correctly sussed
Unknown Speaker (01:39:28.000)
that Lionel Sperlingetti was named for uh Ferlingetti the poet who wrote Tyranus Nix
Unknown Speaker (01:39:34.760)
ah I did not get that that was one of the questions I had the Sperlingetti the Lionel
Unknown Speaker (01:39:38.539)
was clear I'm I'm I'm moved Fiona was the cat yeah and then initially I wanted it to
Unknown Speaker (01:39:49.199)
be Lionel spaghetti but very very beat at that yeah I was not okay with Lionel spaghetti
Unknown Speaker (01:39:56.560)
yeah I will say one my final my final thing I want to say is you you have multiple times
Unknown Speaker (01:40:02.119)
Dan specifically maybe Jordan said to not listen to your pop to not listen to your podcast
Unknown Speaker (01:40:09.079)
you know like from beginning to end and and and I guess the kids call it these days whatever
Unknown Speaker (01:40:15.039)
you know where you watch a million shows in a row I don't even remember what it's called
Unknown Speaker (01:40:18.359)
but you've been binging binging yeah I disagree because I I listen to your I listen to about
Unknown Speaker (01:40:23.680)
20 or 30 episodes at which point I decided I had to stop start from episode one and listen
Unknown Speaker (01:40:29.819)
exclusively from there till the very last episode and even though I've been listening
Unknown Speaker (01:40:35.260)
for about three years that only just happened about two or three weeks ago so I've listened
Unknown Speaker (01:40:39.760)
now finally to your entire catalog and I can say it was an incredibly entertaining three
Unknown Speaker (01:40:45.359)
years I wish I could do it again I'm in withdrawal and I couldn't disagree with you more that
Unknown Speaker (01:40:50.640)
people should binge your show maybe not like 10 episodes a day but there's nothing wrong
Unknown Speaker (01:40:55.239)
with going episode one and just starting the journey I love it I loved every second of
Unknown Speaker (01:40:59.600)
it and I did the same thing I I binged it too after after listening to a bunch of like
Unknown Speaker (01:41:06.079)
modern day episodes in the whole project he did it even faster he did it in like a year
Unknown Speaker (01:41:14.960)
and you know was listening to it in my car on the way to work I was I was listening to
Unknown Speaker (01:41:19.539)
it yeah you know when I wake up at 4 a.m in the morning and smoke a split you know I I
Unknown Speaker (01:41:26.039)
think if you can handle it it's fine but I do think that there's some people who it might
Unknown Speaker (01:41:30.319)
be dangerous for like I've heard people talk about like Alex showing up in their dreams
Unknown Speaker (01:41:34.439)
and stuff I'm like a part of this I think my favorite criticism of our show is something
Unknown Speaker (01:41:45.720)
along the lines of like Jordan's really terrible for the first couple hundred episodes yeah
Unknown Speaker (01:41:49.640)
we get that and it's like really you're gonna be how can I be terrible for a couple hundred
Unknown Speaker (01:41:55.640)
episodes just quit stop listening if you hate me for a hundred episodes I could never understand
Unknown Speaker (01:42:01.399)
the Jordan criticism I it's oh you guys are the yin and the yang I mean I don't understand
Unknown Speaker (01:42:07.159)
people being nice I understand people hating me well they're you know you guys use a format
Unknown Speaker (01:42:12.560)
that I'm seeing more and more now of in podcasts and I you know um um behind the bastards and
Unknown Speaker (01:42:20.359)
um what the dollop also kind of do this where there is uh an expert and an everyman standing
Unknown Speaker (01:42:27.119)
yeah you know they were way before us we we were linked to that yeah but that's what I'm
Unknown Speaker (01:42:34.239)
you know as I'm getting more and more into podcasts and watching less and less tv um
Unknown Speaker (01:42:40.720)
you know it that's something I've begun to notice is that that's a very common kind of
Unknown Speaker (01:42:46.159)
platform you know for a show in order to explore a subject material yeah um so we were kind
Unknown Speaker (01:42:53.239)
of I mean obviously we had that in mind when we were you know devising all this we knew
Unknown Speaker (01:42:57.800)
that we knew the dynamic and we knew how it would be well I think part of the issue is
Unknown Speaker (01:43:03.319)
the mic down you know I feel like the first couple hundred episodes there was um maybe
Unknown Speaker (01:43:07.560)
an interruptory issue um but again oh yes oh yes but so just just in terms of that you
Unknown Speaker (01:43:15.239)
know I think maybe that's how people got the wrong impression but you gotta have someone
Unknown Speaker (01:43:18.560)
to bounce something off of you know even the sci-fi writer the sci-fi writer barry and
Unknown Speaker (01:43:23.079)
and me not the writer you know we bounced ideas back and forth yeah even if you weren't
Unknown Speaker (01:43:27.079)
both on screen at the same time you know uh now having talked to you guys and like I can
Unknown Speaker (01:43:33.880)
see the the the presentation of burg is the is a culmination of the two of you yeah it's
Unknown Speaker (01:43:40.159)
it's almost like a reality tv show producer like throwing notes at the guy while he's
Unknown Speaker (01:43:44.460)
on screen like oh try this go into this from under the door so he doesn't you're the last
Unknown Speaker (01:43:49.279)
but to his credit I gotta say barry's ability to ad lib with a crazy person is uh truly
Unknown Speaker (01:43:54.699)
remarkable yeah I was I was very very impressed yeah yeah um actually I have one more question
Unknown Speaker (01:44:02.560)
what other references did we not get oh god I'm sure there are too many even I don't know
Unknown Speaker (01:44:09.640)
if I can I will send you an email I will send you a list of inside jokes yeah yeah which
Unknown Speaker (01:44:17.079)
literally will have every all of my ideas and maybe I'll like check mark the ones that
Unknown Speaker (01:44:21.560)
got in to the I would be interested I'm sure Barry has some as well post that there was
Unknown Speaker (01:44:25.319)
some disagreement when we were doing part two Andrew uh sort of pushed a lot of references
Unknown Speaker (01:44:34.000)
and I tolerated it but I didn't feel too formally about them I didn't want to get too locked
Unknown Speaker (01:44:40.720)
down in references and you did tell Lionel and I could have maybe pushed back a little
Unknown Speaker (01:44:46.680)
harder uh against some of the more overt references um that maybe distracted a little bit from
Unknown Speaker (01:44:55.279)
from you know the messaging I did love how subtle the like Fiona Saleen always lands
Unknown Speaker (01:45:00.920)
on her feet yeah that was that was nice that was cute well guys thank you so much for uh
Unknown Speaker (01:45:06.960)
uh chatting with us this uh this is very interesting and uh like I said I think that what you did
Unknown Speaker (01:45:14.159)
shows at least a little bit of proof of concept in some ways for like being able to the fact
Unknown Speaker (01:45:21.640)
that you're you know you're saying that Carrie is self-correcting the species race kind of
Unknown Speaker (01:45:25.819)
thing you know as kind of minor as that may seem that is something that matters and it
Unknown Speaker (01:45:32.880)
is I don't know how useful that uh you know your findings are for other people uh you
Unknown Speaker (01:45:39.279)
know who may want to um explore that kind of thing but it is fascinating and I'm I'm
Unknown Speaker (01:45:45.760)
I'm glad that you did it strangely I do want to say you know just for my my final closing
Unknown Speaker (01:45:51.840)
words um I'm glad it's over I didn't particularly enjoy interacting with Carrie because of the
Unknown Speaker (01:45:58.960)
anti-semitism right and she's so erratic and unpredictable a lot of what she like when
Unknown Speaker (01:46:05.840)
she when my story ends and she starts kind of quizzing and back checking me against her
Unknown Speaker (01:46:13.560)
other sources a lot of what comes out of her mouth can be triggering so I was eager to
Unknown Speaker (01:46:21.920)
end this um you know it wasn't we didn't as we explained in our our letter to you we did
Unknown Speaker (01:46:27.760)
not want to be a bottomless well for her that would have served her interests more than
Unknown Speaker (01:46:33.520)
ours right yeah and I mean it's probably got to be um you know complicated at very least
Unknown Speaker (01:46:41.359)
to you know deal with a situation where you're telling your story and putting the information
Unknown Speaker (01:46:47.159)
in that you want with the awareness that there's a decent chance that no matter what I say
Unknown Speaker (01:46:53.000)
she'll use what I'm saying for her own purposes like that dynamic is has got to be a strange
Unknown Speaker (01:46:59.100)
space to live inside yeah it is well I mean thank you guys so much wait this was awesome
Unknown Speaker (01:47:07.319)
before we go I have to say one thing very clearly to the audience not to you guys before
Unknown Speaker (01:47:11.520)
we go we got one more no this is for the audience oh okay sorry for the benefit of the audience
Unknown Speaker (01:47:15.439)
yes there is uh I want to make this clear you guys didn't do this in order to get on
Unknown Speaker (01:47:24.920)
our show you when you emailed us you weren't looking to come on the show and I want to
Unknown Speaker (01:47:30.439)
make it very clear to anybody listening if you do things to fuck with people for the
Unknown Speaker (01:47:36.560)
a like oh yeah no all of getting on our show it is not going to work this is a very specific
Unknown Speaker (01:47:41.840)
circumstance yeah um where there's other things involved if you're abundantly clear that you
Unknown Speaker (01:47:49.359)
were not trying to get on the show I would it was my idea to ask you to be on the show
Unknown Speaker (01:47:54.800)
you guys did not have anything to do with it yeah yeah we were pretty surprised I just
Unknown Speaker (01:47:59.159)
want to discourage anybody from uh like pulling stunts in order to no stunts get our exactly
Unknown Speaker (01:48:08.079)
yes don't try this at home thank you guys we appreciate it wish you all the best rest
Unknown Speaker (01:48:13.640)
in peace Solomon Berg Andy in Kansas you're on the air thanks for holding so Alex I'm
Unknown Speaker (01:48:19.960)
a huge fan I love your work I love you
