Transcript/849: Chatting with EJ Dickson
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Hello Alex, I'm a first-time caller, I'm a huge fan
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Hello everyone, welcome back to Knowledge Fight
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This is Jordan, again without my co-host Dan
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However, today I am joined by the senior writer for internet culture at Rolling Stone, E.J. Dixon
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Thank you so much for agreeing to be on the episode today
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Thank you so much for having me
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I reached out to you specifically because you wrote a piece in the Rolling Stone about
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a proliferation of fake Karens
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Could you kind of explain what it is that those are?
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You want me to explain like what a Karen is?
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No, no, no, the fake version, like the videos that are being pushed around, if I understand
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them correctly, are people staging acts of Karen-ness
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Correct, yeah, so I spend a lot of time on TikTok for my job and I would say my For You
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page is very wide-ranging as a result, like I get a mixture of a lot of different kinds
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of stuff and the one thing that I started noticing I was seeing a lot of were these
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videos of, it was always white women in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, freaking out at largely
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service workers but also occasionally just strangers on the street
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There were a lot of parking and driving altercations and these videos were getting millions and
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millions of views which didn't surprise me too much in itself because TikTok, especially
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as a platform, really prioritizes outrage-inducing content and there's nothing more reliably
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outrage-inducing than a video of a Karen going apeshit on somebody but what did surprise
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me a little bit was that the videos were clearly fake
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They were staged, they were clearly scripted to some degree, they were clearly taking place
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on a set because there was nobody else in the videos and that was very unusual considering
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a lot of them took place at a restaurant or some place where you'd expect a lot of people
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that the sound was perfect, the acting was not great a lot of the time
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That's how you know it's fake
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Yeah and it didn't take a genius to figure it out and also it was really easy to figure
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it out like you would just go back to the account sharing the videos and it wasn't easy
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you know it might take a couple steps but it wasn't easy it was like pretty easy to
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find the source of the videos and you would see the same actor appearing over and over
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again in various sketches
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But in these specific ones the idea is they're portraying these as real they're not giving
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you anything other than you know your own deductive abilities to suggest that these
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are staged right?
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Yes essentially yes it does get a little complicated because I have covered in the past some of
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these accounts that create these types of viral content will have a disclaimer on the
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original video saying like this is just a comedy sketch but this is with the knowledge
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that they're going to be shared on multiple different kinds of platforms by multiple different
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times of meme accounts with that disclaimer taken away
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Right
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You know so even if they're sort of like and this wasn't this case on this and for this
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particular video but even if there's sort of like an initial cursory attempt to like
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include a disclaimer or say hey this is not real like there's there's sort of like a knowledge
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that that disclaimer is not going to be included in reproductions of the video
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Right so they so there's almost like a laundering process wherein they make the original video
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put this little we don't believe that we're going to get away with this if we don't lie
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but then other accounts which may be operated by them too realistically you know
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Yeah
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We'll put it out without that
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Yeah that's that's a good way to describe it as a laundering process because they know
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that these videos are going to be picked up by these very high engagement meme accounts
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the one that I talk about in the piece is this account called crazy Karen's which is
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on Twitter and has something like 500,000 followers and um and they know that the it's
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going to be completely devoid of context when it's shared there so it's sort of just a way
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to be like ethically responsible in quotes while simultaneously like ensuring the content
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goes as viral as possible by no way because you know that content that context is going
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to be erased
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Yeah yeah I find it I find it wild that we still allow people to get off on like demon
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style technicalities where it's like aha no I've signed this in blood so you can't do
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anything to me like we know what you're doing you're clearly doing this
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Well people don't I mean that's the thing like they don't know what they're doing like
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the vast majority of people in the comments thought that it was a legitimate video they
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were like let's find her let's let's find the actress playing not the actress let's
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find this Karen like let's out her uh is there a GoFundMe for the waiter that he that she's
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harassing in the video like they had absolutely no idea there were like a couple comments
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that were like this is fake but the vast majority took it totally seriously
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That's a really good question is there a GoFundMe?
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No I mean that very seriously is there a grift here as well do you know I mean I'm not talking
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just about they're laundering these fake videos but are there supports that people donate
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money to are is it or is it just engagement?
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I have seen no evidence that there is a grift like that you know like that they're directing
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trying to direct funds to a specific you know fake resource or something like that I believe
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it is just for engagement yes which is you know it could be read as a type of grift in
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itself
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Oh no it is I'm just yeah but it's not like a direct you know there's no direct monetary
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fraud at all that I get that I can see from any of these types of accounts
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Because I mean we cover Infowars so the engagement we understand but we've also got that added
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level of the grift is always on you know you're always selling something
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Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
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So that's that's very interesting um but what I what I mean I've got so many different kind
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of notes about this like the first thing that I want to talk about is that there's something
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people are getting from watching these videos you know and and we can talk about just being
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outraged you know being able to to like get mad but there's a million different things
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we get mad at all the time what is it about these videos specifically I feel like that
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people are engaging with?
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Well I'm not a psychologist I take it with a grain of salt but I think I think there
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are a couple things going on um I think there's a lot of misogyny
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The first thing I was going to say is I think people hate women but go for it
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Yeah and that's usually that's the explanation for like what 95% of the time when something
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goes viral it's like oh it's because people hate women
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Right
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Um that's I could talk for hours and hours and hours about like the subgenre of like
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airplane uh like tweets about complaining about like kids and moms on airplanes that
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absolutely fit into that category but yeah I think there's a there's a very um substantial
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undercurrent of misogyny these are all women um these are all women having very public
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for the most part yeah they're like one or two exceptions and it's not like and it's
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not like men aren't capable of that kind of behavior you know
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I watch dudes do that shit all the time to servers
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Yeah dudes are pieces of shit all the time totally
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Yeah it's it's all it's all white it's all white uh middle class usually older women um
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so I think that there's a lot of misogyny that's specifically targeted towards women
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who are not deemed you have of having value like a certain type of sexual value in society
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anymore so there is that um I also think that among um people of color who share these videos
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or like there's a very understandable feeling of
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It's about time these white these white ladies have it coming
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Exactly like there there is you know there's a lot of outrage over white women like weaponizing
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their tears and their outrage and using it against people of color and lower income people
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and I think that that that fuels a lot of it like the very understandable outrage at
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that phenomenon so I think it's those two things like sociologically but I think even
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more importantly than that it's um like the one impulse that trumps both of those things
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is that it's blood sport you know it's internet blood sport like how can we hold somebody
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accountable how can we you know make sure that we get this person fired how can we make
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sure we make this person's life as difficult as humanly possible for being such an asshole
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in public I mean that those are the majority of the comments that I saw
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Sure
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And the thing and the thing is like if it's not true like if the person is an actor if
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it's just an engagement player then there is no accountability you know like there is
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there's nobody that can be held accountable this is just this is just a piece of content
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that is specifically generated to capitalize on your sense of righteous indignation um
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but that's primarily what I think it appeals to
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Right well what I mean the question then that follows is does that then kind of like diffuse
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or delegitimize whenever somebody is actually behaving terribly you know like if you're
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giving me such vehement criticism for this fake video and you're well I mean honestly
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there's a certain part of me that says what that does is actually decrease the ability
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of anybody to actually address it you know if you feel like talking shit on this fake
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video is what you need to do in order to fight against this type of behavior then why would
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you actually do something when in real life does that make sense like you're delegitimizing
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No I'm not sure I'm not sure you I'm not sure I understand like you are you saying that
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like the fact that these videos are fake delegitimizes like the real abhorrent behavior that's captured
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in
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Yes yes
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Authentic caring videos
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In that sense yes
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Um I don't think so
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I'm cool with that answer
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I don't I don't think so I mean just because people don't care people don't care if something's
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fake like that's really what I've learned in covering the internet like people really
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don't care what the truth is like they don't you know that's that's ultimately secondary
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to the idea that people can coalesce behind a given narrative and uh join in behind it
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and like and like I'm not saying that that's not an argument against like cancel culture
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or and I put cancel culture in quotes like that's not an argument against like the process
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of using the internet as a tool for holding people accountable when they behave badly
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like that's not what I'm saying I'm just saying that I think we're at this point in uh internet
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culture and in our culture culture in general where the truth of the truth behind a given
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internet story or like the context is just completely immaterial um like I really do
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feel that way so no I don't think anybody particularly cares that these videos are fake
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honestly and I don't think anybody will care I I think that probably what's going to happen
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is we're just going to see more and more and more of them um and the boundaries between
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what is legitimate and what is staged for clicks and for outrage are just going to completely
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collapse I think that's very much the direction we're moving in
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okay so so I mean you're you're saying that eventually all forms of outrage will be staged
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for us and then delivered to us through social media platforms
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yeah I mean in addition to like
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I mean that's a very fun idea
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in addition to like you know the actual like the actual Karen videos like yeah yeah I think
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I just don't think that anybody cares
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I mean then how far does it go you know what's the escalation will there be staged uh cop
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assassinations do you know what I mean I mean are we where is the escalation and is there
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a is there a portent in in this kind of uh behavior that uh can tell us
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I mean I kind of think it's already happening you know like I regularly I can't even think
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of one specific example because it happens so often I I regularly see at least five things
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on the internet every day that are fake and are easy to prove that are fake and generate
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a shit ton of outrage and you know in some cases generate entire news cycles you know
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and the fact that the fact that I can't think of a specific one well okay I guess one example
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that's very recent is um the uh the rumor that people uh at Burning Man were contracting
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Ebola um had that sort I left I left the internet and I could not be happier I'm not on social
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media at all it's yeah so there were there were like two days where um there were like
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two days where the Ebola was trending on X formerly Twitter which is a phrase I have
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to unfortunately write all the time now in my stories um there Ebola was trending on
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X for quite some time because there was this rumor um that I you know seemed to have been
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completely just crafted out of thin air that uh somebody at Burning Man had Ebola and it
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wasn't I don't think it was covered by any like legitimate mainstream media outlets because
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like they have to follow a certain you know fact-checking protocol and like basic you
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know reporting principles um but it was picked up enough that like it was just kind of it
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was just kind of regarded as fact within a few hours and this happens all the time like
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that's just one minor example of of something that I just see happening all the time and
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that's not a particularly like new argument I'm making I don't think that like people
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don't care about the truth anymore um or people just fashion you know create their own narratives
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create their own agendas so to speak um but it's just I just see it happening all the
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time right right well I mean part of why I'm I'm so fascinated is with our our job you
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know we've looked at Alex Jones over his past 20 years and that concept of like people don't
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give a shit about what is true or what isn't true seems like it I mean it didn't originate
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with him but it seems like he was a proto form of it on the internet at the very beginning
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of people not giving a fuck about reality there was Alex and so what I'm looking at
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whenever I see all of these different videos is the idea that it's not a grift you know
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it's just engagement that seems crazy that seems brand new to me well it's not because
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it's not like they're not making money off of it you know they're just monetizing it's
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and honestly I mean on TikTok which is a famously difficult platform to monetize content on
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um you know you have to think that they're not making that much money off of it uh but
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yeah I mean they are making money off of it so it's not like it's not like they're not
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profiting off it it's just a more indirect type of profiting than the type of profiting
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you were talking about earlier sure sure but I mean the reason that I bring that up isn't
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because I you know I want them to do it either direction or anything like that it's that
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with Alex that extra step you know that extra step of not being just the person who tells
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you the truth uh he's also the person who sells you the shit you need to survive that
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kind of thing that's kind of an extra step of evil that's an intent that's an intent
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to take an audience and then steal their money basically by selling your garbage and with
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the with the fake Karens I'm I'm fascinated because if they're not trying to then convert
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their audience into something else does that mean that they're not doing it yet or does
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that mean that this is a different type of grift it's just a different type of grift
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I mean I alleged I don't think I can use the word grip it's just a different type I'm I'm
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free to do it all I want yeah so I don't really want to be um I don't I don't really want
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to say you know accuse them of grifting in any way because they're not I mean it's it's
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not a grift in the technical sense but um it's uh it's just a different type of uh attention
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grab it's just a different type of it's I mean it's all the same really um in the attention
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economy it's it there's not like that much of a distinction between what Alex Jones is
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doing and I mean he's got a you know more overtly political agenda but he's also just
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going on air and saying thanks for attention that a lot of the time he knows aren't true
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and so no no no totally there's not that much of a distinction no no absolutely but that's
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I mean again that's what I'm I'm kind of driving towards is this idea and we see it all too
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often with uh you know like with uh uh your your wellness scams or your uh your your other
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types of grift is that they have suddenly started to turn towards the right wing they've
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all suddenly started turning political you know we've we've covered uh natural uh healing
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people who over time after the COVID vaccine because they're anti-vaccine they turn into
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far further and further right people um so I yeah you know so I'm I'm seeing where this
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is and I'm I'm just interested uh if to to find more and more similarities to see if
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there's something that we can do to see what these uh before they before they become monstrous
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do you know what I mean mm-hmm so that brings me to my next question should we even be noticing
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it what do you mean I mean I mean is it a good or uh is it a positive thing to share
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this to make people aware of this or is this something that could just like have disappeared
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has appeared and disappeared oh I got it I hadn't noticed it for a second then it would
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never have been noticed yeah I get that question a lot um and it's a question that I ask myself
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pretty often because I write about a lot of things that I find morally abhorrent sure
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absolutely and um you know there is a question of whether or not you um and also I used to
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cover um extremism in the far right far more um although I still do to some extent like
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far more than I do now and and there is always this question of like well are we adding more
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oxygen to something or platforming something that really shouldn't be platformed and I
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think it's a fine line um but I think at a certain point and I'm and I'm starting to
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you know it's really a case-by-case thing with with each story that I think about covering
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but like I'm finding myself jumping like coming to this conclusion for more and more of them
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at a certain point something gets go get so big that you can't ignore it sure you know
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like at a certain point you know the horse is out of the barn right like I think um I
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I think this is actually a pretty good example of that because uh because they were getting
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millions and millions of views and you know I am not and they were showing up on my for
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you page and I'm not a person who actively seeks this kind of this kind of content so
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like why is TikTok prioritizing this so I think I think it's helpful for a number of
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reasons um this type of coverage a because I think just having increased media literacy
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in general is helpful even if nobody is actually interested in having increased media literacy
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and be um to some extent I mean less in this specific case because this isn't you know
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as overtly harmful as some of the other things that I've covered that TikTok has um uh promoted
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but it puts pressure it puts pressure on the platforms which play a huge role in um spreading
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this type of content and ensuring that it gets as many eyeballs as possible because
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it uh increases engagement it increases time on the platform like it's only to their benefit
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that these platforms uh implicitly promote misinformation right so I I think this type
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of coverage is important because it ultimately you know puts pressure on them and holds them
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more accountable than they otherwise would be to doing that right TikTok I think is a
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particularly powerful social platform in that regard uh because even though it's uniquely
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it's supposedly uniquely tailored to an individual's interests and an edge of an individual's like
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um and which it is to some degree like I mean I get tons of tix talks about I like musical
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theater I like Disney I like um Harry Styles content like that I get tons of I like um
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you know animal content I get tons of shit like that but it also is unique in that it
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um has the power to decide what does and doesn't go viral a lot of times and I'm not saying
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that there's like somebody behind a computer like you know deciding okay we're gonna make
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this fake hair and video go viral today but it sees that something is about to get a lot
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of engagement um it sees it sees that something is getting a lot of engagement it sees that
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something is you know getting a lot of eyeballs on it and it will boost that because it is
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to their benefit to keep people on the platform um so it's it do you know it like it's not
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it has a lot of power I guess it's just what I'm trying to say it's it's a very powerful
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powerful platform I think people are scared of it for reasons that um reasons other than
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why they should be scared of it right right well I think I mean if it we're talking about
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it is it you know TikTok isn't it I'm talking about TikTok yes right people people should
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people there's a lot of discourse about you know about TikTok and China and you know I
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don't that's not what I that's not my beat that's not what like I oh no no I don't mean
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I don't mean I don't mean like any associations with the country or any political situation
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no but I'm saying that that's why people that's why people are I'm saying that's why people
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are scared of TikTok and I'm saying no you should be scared of TikTok because it is an
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incredibly powerful source of information that um actively prioritizes information that
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is not correct right right right that is why people should be scared of it right and and
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and what I'm saying in in response to that is that TikTok isn't isn't just like an it
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like there's there's a reason that these things are happening there's an algorithm there's
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there's something that drives this engagement and forces it this this way and I don't understand
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why we're not doing anything about that yeah I mean the platform notoriously lacks transparency
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all platforms do um so TikTok is not really unique in that regard um so we don't really
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know how content is being promoted and moderated that seems really important we should know
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that do I feel oh sure sure sure no a lot of a lot of people um agree with you um so
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we don't we don't really know how content that's what I'm saying like that's why we
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should be scared of it you know right we should be scared of it because like a we don't know
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how content is being promoted and b we do we know that what content is being promoted
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is often wrong or harmful in various ways right um yeah so then I mean that's why the
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way that I I find it difficult to talk about it is as though it is a an it you know as
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though it is an unfeeling corporate engine that cannot be uh viewed you know like there
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are people behind this who are doing this on purpose but we don't know how exactly I
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can't I can't tell you how I can't provide any insight right right so so I I find that
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it it kind of like removes responsibility for the people if themselves if they just
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go oh well TikTok does this why would you care if you worked for TikTok and you were
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writing these horrible algorithms if they were horrible because it's not you it's TikTok
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you know yeah I don't know is well I mean it's like are you are do you have to call
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it X will you get sued if you don't call it X what do you mean I mean well earlier you
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said you know Twitter now known as X or X formerly known as Twitter and you have to
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write that right yeah because I'm a journalist and you know it's accurate right but I mean
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do you have to is it it will you get sued if you just say we're going to call it Twitter
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um I mean I can't speak to that I just know that it is I know I don't like calling it
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X but I I know it's more accurate to call it X we're really known as Twitter and as
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a journalist accuracy and the truth are important to me and that might sound uh that might sound
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a little virtuous like overly virtuous but um you know it's the truth no I don't I don't
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believe that at all I think that's uh I'm I'm I'm asking because I find it strange that
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we I mean Twitter stopped being a product a long time ago and started being a place
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a place that we called Twitter and I find it strange that a billionaire can just buy
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up a place and then say it's X now you can buy up a product and say it's X but you can't
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buy up a place and say it's X no it's it's not good I I do appreciate that we're just
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agreeing on how things are awful yeah basically a lot I have a lot of conversations like this
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most of my conversations with people are like this these days sure sure the internet's a
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horrible place um which again which brings me to my next question do people believe the
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same things on the internet that they believe in real life in this case in what case I mean
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in in these TikTok uh video scenarios is this something where it's like I am happy to believe
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this while I am on the internet I'm happy to believe be outraged while I am on the internet
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and the moment I put my phone down I completely forget about all of that right away no no
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that's a good question I don't know I can only speak to my own subjective experience
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of how I use the internet tell me about how you use the internet I it has to be strange
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considering you are both observer and participant well it's also extra strange in that I have
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a life that is totally separate from the internet and that is not the case I mean it's a case
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for a lot of people use the internet but it's also a case for it's also not the case for
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a lot of people use the internet like for some people they live on the internet um and
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I don't uh I have a family uh I have a partner who is completely offline um and it's interesting
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like the way like he will ask me about something that he read about in the paper that morning
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and I'll be like what are you talking about and then I'll bring up something that I've
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been obsessively focused on that's been happening online and he'll be like what are you talking
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about like it's two completely different worlds like in two completely different like news
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ecosystems which I find fascinating but um so for me and also like I've been working
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on the internet have been facing harassment and abuse and and such uh you know for so
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many years uh that I have to compartmentalize you know like I have to just shut it off and
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be like this can't I can't think about this anymore um but that's my own subjective experience
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of the internet I don't know if that's that way for other people I've I've spoken to uh
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many uh journalists and uh people uh of note uh all of whom that are uh female uh presenting
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are abused horribly on the internet pretty much constantly so yeah constantly yeah it's
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really it's it's really quite stunning actually you didn't ask this but I'll tell you um that
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the more I started to um the the more that like uh I started writing stuff that I was
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super proud of and the more confident and I felt about my abilities and um my career
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the more harassment I got it was kind of it was kind of astonishing like I I basically
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the moment I started working for Rolling Stone is the moment well that's actually not true
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like about a year into working for Rolling Stone um when I really thought that I had
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like hit my stride and I figured out like what I wanted to write about and thought that
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I was doing like pretty good work um that was when the harassment started increasing
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and I bet I bet a lot of women who go on this uh your podcast will probably say the same
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thing yeah yeah um oh yeah whenever you well you know the more proud of your work you are
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the more you want to put it out there you the more you want people to see it and then
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more people see it and then pieces of shit see it I guess I guess it's just I guess it's
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just a function of visibility um but I found it uh at first at first I I was like why is
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this happening um at a time when I think I'm doing like really important and really good
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work and then I realized oh um it's it's because I'm a woman and and it's because I'm a visible
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woman on the internet it's really not much more complicated than that um it's not no
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we're we're uh we're we're very visible you can see us but people do not bother us at
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all you know like when we talk about visibility there are people who are looking for women
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to hurt they're not just looking at people who disagree with them oh yeah I mean it's
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literally happening to me in my mentions right now like I won't get into it but like it's
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the there's literally like somebody called me an ugly cunt like 10 like an hour ago I
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don't know if you can put that on your podcast but somebody like an hour ago and I was just
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like oh somebody tweeted my quote tweeted me who like shouldn't have and and the more
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it happens the more you get used to it uh which has helped me um just on a personal
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level and a pragmatic level in doing my job um but is not really a great reflection on
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the state of uh discourse business no no it's not I wonder if that is more just a matter
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of the internet has brought a larger number of people into proximity like would people
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have always been this but I mean people have been this misogynistic since I assume Neanderthals
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uh went extinct you know like is this simply an inevitable byproduct of more and more people
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seeing each other just more and more I think it's so many things I think it's so many things
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I I don't think it's just that although that's definitely like a driving factor and the anonymity
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is a driving factor and the fact that we that people culturally have permission to hate
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Jews and trans people and black people and women more than they have you know have and
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certainly within my lifetime um I mean it's a bunch of things but yeah all right well
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then there's really kind of one last thing that I wanted to talk about uh and that is
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why is everything on the internet mad libs apparently Dave Portnoy is an important food
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critic now yeah what everything is mad libs those words aren't those two words don't make
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sense to me what is going on oh you don't watch his pizza reviews no what oh my god
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so you're telling like I read I read this and there's a what he takes one bite of a
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pizza and then that matters to human beings so what are you asking me about are you asking
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me about I just want to be clear like are we are we talking about like the fact that
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he does pizza reviews are we talking about the latest thing that he got in trouble for
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that not in trouble but the latest thing that he went viral for um what are the latest thing
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that he went viral for was that the that was the fight right yeah yeah okay yeah so tell
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me what happened with the fight in full in full detail please well I guess I have to
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explain the context I guess I do have to if you're saying that like you didn't know that
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Dave Portnoy was a popular pizza critic then I guess the context needs to be explained
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yeah he's got this serious no people know he's really viral he's really popular um he
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it kind of goes back to your point earlier about like something's happening on one sector
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of the internet that's huge and the other sector of the internet like has no idea about
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it um he uh does these food does these pizza reviews um he just goes to various pizza places
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on the east coast um takes a bite of pizza gives it a highly specific grade um and it's
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pretty harmless like I actually I actually enjoy his videos um the pizza videos I think
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they're good I agree with his opinions like I'm I grew up in New York so like I care a
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lot about pizza and um like even though I'm not David Portnoy's target audience like I
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think he's a pretty good pizza critic like you know everything he says about pizza I'm
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like yeah I agree with you um even if I disagree with him about many other things I I do enjoy
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his pizza reviews um so those have been pretty popular for a really long time and he recently
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went into some guy's pizzeria who I interviewed after this happened and this guy was like
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no I do not want this guy because he because apparently there had been some sort of like
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rumors circulating in the pizza community that Dave Portnoy had a lot of power like
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a review had a lot of power over the success of an individual business and this guy was
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like no I don't want to be a part of this like I I don't I which I understand um and
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I don't want to see the pizza community taken advantage of like that well he just he's you
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know he's an artisan he's a chef he's like you know he feels strongly about his product
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and he does not want this guy who he perceives as having like too much power and influence
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over the pizza community in general uh he doesn't want to play the game you know which
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I understand sure and um you know I the flip side of that uh which I also understand is
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that he you know what Portnoy does is no different than food criticism in general and this guy
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should be like open to that and should understanding of that but like regardless um he came out
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and he told him uh to fuck himself and they got in a big fight and Portnoy like blasted
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it uh on his social channels and he and he talked about it on Tucker Carlson and it became
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it unleashed this like wave of harassment against this guy wait Dave Portnoy went on
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Tucker Carlson to talk shit about pizza not specifically for that purpose but he he talked
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about this guy and the Tucker Carlson yeah okay and then I assume that's because soy
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boy lefties don't want Dave Portnoy eating his pizza are we still using those words what
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are they calling well that's how it was interpreted it sort of became uh it implicitly became
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a culture war thing or um even though that it was had absolutely nothing to do with culture
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wars right you know if anything if anything it was a it was like one of the more apolitical
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uh times that Dave Portnoy has been in the news in recent years you know like I it's
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it had absolutely nothing to do with politics but it was interpreted that way and in part
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because uh he talked about it on Tucker I think but also because of the the type of
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audience that Dave Portnoy has and the type of brand that he's built right right so then
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I I ask myself the question that is real and the fake Karens are fake and I don't know
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if there's a difference between the two right now I mean sure does that I mean maybe do
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you follow what I'm going on like would it matter if Dave Portnoy went on Tucker Carlson
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to talk about a fight that was staged like was that fight staged was everybody in on
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it do you know what it meant it crossed my mind right I think I asked the guy um it crossed
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my mind uh I don't think it was because he was very upset about the uh harassment against
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his family and the death threats that he received and uh he didn't want to talk about like specifics
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I'm not going to tell you about like specifics but you know as somebody with a family like
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I don't think I I would never willingly invite that into my home and onto myself um so I
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don't think it was staged but I mean to address your larger point would it matter if it was
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staged I mean matter to who would it matter to me yes I mean I think that the truth matters
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I think journalism matters uh you know does it matter to Tucker Carlson no I don't think
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Tucker Carlson gives a shit Tucker Carlson had on a I mean Tucker Carlson had on a guy
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who claims to have done crack with Obama and had gay sex with him in 1999 these are claims
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that were discredited like 15 years ago Tucker Carlson doesn't care but um do people on the
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internet care I don't know it depends it's should people care I think so but I'm not
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the arbiter of the internet you know sure who is do you care I mean would you care if
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it was fake well I I to to me what I see is the difference is that uh his he's getting
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real life death threats he's not getting comments on his posts you know he's not a fake he's
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not an actor who people are very furious with he is but the point that I was trying to make
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about the fake Karens is that people wanted to exactly they wanted to send this person
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to threats right right they wanted they wanted to dox this person they wanted and and it
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was a totally imaginary person but they wanted to and the only reason why a video like that
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exists is to capitalize on the desire to do those kinds of horrible things to a person
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right right what is what is it are we are we training ourselves how better to attack
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real people through these fake videos or are we just or is are the fake videos a better
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way of releasing this clear need to pile on people I mean I guess in in that I think they're
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better sure they're very cynical but nobody's getting hurt it's a it's a it's fake heroin
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yeah I don't I mean they're better in that regard I don't are they more I mean I don't
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I I think I think for a lot of people knowing that they are fake would make them less entertaining
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um that's interesting not necessarily for me because I don't find the real ones entertaining
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right but you have no interest in watching a real life human being be a piece of shit
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to another real life human being that's no I don't um I don't uh it doesn't it doesn't
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appeal to me and uh I just always wonder what the real story is behind it for both of the
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people on camera right someone's having an awful everything yeah and that's not fun that's
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not fun for me to watch that but it's fun for other people yeah I mean that's what is
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it that they're are they looking to enjoy the actual abuse or do they enjoy their response
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to it is it all tied together in some sort of weird fetish that we've created out of
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these Karen videos again I'm not like a psychologist so I don't know like I can't speak to what
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goes on in the brain when people just want to be fucking assholes on the internet like
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I just I can't um and I also and I want to be clear that like I am not my I have a very
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complicated opinion about like accountability culture like I am not going to sit here and
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make the argument that someone who verbally abuses a wait person uh for no apparent reason
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uh doesn't deserve to be held accountable for it like I I think that there are a lot
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of cases especially if somebody is being racist or abusive or harmful in some way where it
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is absolute like absolutely acceptable to film their behavior and and to call them out
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on it and they you know should face consequences but that's what an asterisk you know like
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I see like a lot of the times I see uh and I'm saying there's more and more on TikTok
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in particular lately um the videos of like private citizens being filmed are clearly
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people who are mentally ill or in distress um or a lot of the times are neurodivergent
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and you know not picking up on social cues and these are you know if you just took a
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second I just want to be like if you just took a second to like think about what you
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know who this person is and what the context is then you would come to that conclusion
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or like you would come to the conclusion that it might be possible that they're vulnerable
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in this way so why attack them you know like why use your platform to attack somebody for
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clout uh if they are potentially you know really really struggling and deeply sick you
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know and um that's not a question people are asking themselves right now it's just not
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it's I see it every day like it's it's it's just it's just not a question people I can
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I can name 10 examples off the top of my head it's just not a question people are asking
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themselves yeah that's fucked I mean that's yeah that's a male you know it's it's god
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that's that's so difficult because that's and I don't want to say it like this but it
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is the first way of viewing that pops to a dumb comics mind is like you guys are leaving
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so much money on the table you know you're going straight from lying to hurting people
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you've got to make you've got to start a store you know you got to sell t-shirts it's it's
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fucked up it's fucked up because it's I'm not because but it's just for clout oh yeah
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right there's the the one the one example I'm thinking of I guess I'll just talk about
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it um but I even though you didn't ask the one example that I'm thinking of is this video
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that that is going viral it's this one it's this woman right it's actually like a series
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of videos and she has been filming um this this guy in her neighborhood um who looks
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really disheveled uh his legs are black for some reason um he like clearly hasn't showered
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in weeks um walking around her neighborhood um singing to himself just singing gibberish
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um basically uh like you know causing you know being disruptive in the neighborhood
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but is clearly it's clearly not well this guy is like clearly not well and instead of
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you know trying to see where this guy's family is if he has any family um you know getting
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a wellness check on him trying to see if he's okay if he could use any support this woman's
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reaction was to create an entire TikTok account around her crazy neighbor and she's got millions
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of followers now and people are like doing lip syncing his like the songs that he sings
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to himself like they're remixing it and this happens all the time I cannot even tell you
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how commonplace this is and again because it's TikTok I am getting these videos even
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though I have no interest in some you know that's because they are just getting so much
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engagement and I really wish that somebody would write about it um I don't know if I
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I struggle with whether or not I should uh yeah no I totally understand it's really astonishing
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to watch that's fucked up it's really fucked up in a way that I can't like I wish I could
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articulate better how fucked up that is that's deeply psychopathic that is that is deeply
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psycho psychopathic and if you look at the comments nobody says anything like that nobody
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no but nobody's like why are you filming this guy is this guy okay it's none of the comments
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are like that it's it's just all now so so to me what that indicates is that the algorithm
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that people have designed is specifically angling towards creating a place where people
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who would say that's psychopathic never see that shit um yeah you know like it is it is
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creating a cordoned off area of the internet where this is fine this is fine this is fine
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and this area it's not fine and this area it's not well no I would actually argue that
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it was a cordoned off area of the internet but that cordoned off area has gotten bigger
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and bigger and bigger because of platforms like okay now I'm interested like in the past
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I you know if five years ago 10 years ago you would see the people the only people who
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were sort of making bloodsport out of you know doxxing private individuals and cruelty
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like that was 4chan or kiwi farms or places like that and now it's it's sort of it there
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are now there are not only are there more forums for like right-wing assholes to do
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that and not only are there more right-wing assholes doing that but there's also sort
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of been this um water down effect I guess you could call it where um we're not just
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talking about doxxing you know it's not just right-wing assholes talking about dance doxxing
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like women and trans folks because they you know posted a photo on the internet that maybe
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yeah yeah it's it's it's like they are creating it it's like it's like left-wing people right-wing
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people it's like totally politically um you know unbiased and it's like they are creating
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a sort of social justification for it um like there's another example this is one of the
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cruelest things I've ever seen uh this woman Sabrina Prater was a trans woman on TikTok
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a couple years ago who um would record videos of herself in her house dancing and her house
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was like kind of you know ill-kept uh on a on the surface and it looked a little it was
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she was doing some construction on it I think so people were taking these videos and not
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only naming them and remixing them but also like accusing her of being a serial killer
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and calling cps on her because she had kids and um you know calling the police to check
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her basement and doing these like true crime-esque videos like dissecting her content it was
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really insane and this was a poor trans woman you know and these and these people were dissecting
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her life and doxxing her uh but they had come up with like a high-minded justification for
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it which is oh we're you know saving lives we're helping people and this that it happens
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all the time right and and that's that's really like when I say a watered down effect like
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that's that's in part because that that's that's like the kiwi farms and fortunes shit
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sort of trickling down to general society right well I mean we see that all too often
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as the legacy of uh Infowars and Sandy Hook you know Alex did Alex sent these people to
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harass uh based upon just lies and shit yeah just to fucking make money and get engagement
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and draw draw cash his way so to see that it's it's now so democratized that it's just
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like the eye of Sauron is on you at all times uh it's fucking crazy yeah I think that's
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a good way of putting it honestly now everybody knows Alex Jones and abused the rest of the
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human race pretty much all right is there anything you like about the internet otherwise
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we're about to end this on the saddest most miserable uh um yeah there are a lot of stand
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up and walk away from the bad no no I'm just saying I'm just I'm just putting my light
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on um because it was getting dark in here uh is there anything I like about the internet
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yeah there are a lot of things I like about the internet actually okay there I love the
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internet I really do um I have had more fun on the internet like some of the funnest times
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in my life have been on the internet I remember this is so specific but um yesterday so you
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know how Steve Hartwell died the Smash Mouth guy yes I do know I do know that yesterday
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my friend Miles Clea who's my colleague uh at Rolling Stone is like an amazing writer
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uh he wrote a post about um Steve Harwell's Twitter presence and his um he did this tweet
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a couple years ago that was like dunking on DJ Khaled when DJ Khaled said he doesn't go
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down on his wife I don't know if you remember it yeah and it was just like it was an amazing
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dunk it was like a classic moment in internet history and I was thinking uh about I was
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trying to think of a headline for the piece and I was like do we frame it around like Steve
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Harwell's Twitter history do we frame it around this like one moment that is like iconic in my
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memory and I was thinking about and I was thinking about this tweet and I was like where I remembered
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the exact moment where I was when I saw that tweet and just like the joy that filled my body
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when I saw the tweet it was almost like an an endorphins rush um and I was thinking wow
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I'm just I'm just bringing that up because you asked if there's anything good about the internet
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and yeah I think one of the good things about the internet is that it can bring moments like that
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the internet also brings together marginalized people in a way that um is sort of unprecedented
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in human history um it can hold power to account in a way that's unprecedented in human history like
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when harnessed correctly the power of the internet is really something to behold
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and I think it's beautiful um the problem is that it's just very often not harnessed
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in a way that I think is morally defensible right so we need to find people who are really good at
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harnessing the internet in the right way and then take over the world educate people in media
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literacy and how to use the internet responsibly um and I think that a lot of I mean my kids aren't
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old enough but if I had to guess I would say that a lot of media literacy targeted at gen z
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has not been focused around like how to consume uh information responsibly uh or like as focused
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on misinformation at all I think it's probably been like don't send nudes you know like I think
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that's the majority of like internet education for um teenagers and I think that's a big problem
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because there are a lot of ways that people that age use the internet in ways that I think are
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irresponsible and um if people took the time to discuss that uh if educators took the time to
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discuss that uh then I think that could help a lot but what do I know I'm just I'm a childless
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heathen so it is nice to know that people are still telling children to not be children instead
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of helping them I appreciate that a great deal uh oh yeah yeah that happens all the time well
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ej thank you so much this has been an absolute delight of a time uh thank you you this was fun
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I like the tangents that we went down that was fun that is what I'm fairly well uh well known for
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uh tangential uh boring side notes um so people can find you at the rolling stone uh is there
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anywhere else that they can find you yeah promoting up soon no you can follow me on
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x formerly known as twitter um at ej dixon all righty well then thank you so much uh
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and uh hopefully we'll talk again soon bye thanks have a good day nice meeting you
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andy in kansas you're on the air thanks for holding
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hello alex I'm a first time caller I'm a huge fan I love your work I love you
