Transcript/710: Elizabeth Williamson Returns
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N-N-N-N-N-N-N-Knowledge Fight
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Dan and Jordan, I am sweating.
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Knowledgefight.com, it's time to pray.
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I have great respect for knowledgefight, knowledgefight.
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I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys saying we are the bad guys, knowledgefight.
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Dan and Jordan, knowledgefight.com, it's time to pray.
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Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Knowledge Fight, I'm Dan.
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I'm Jordan.
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We're a couple dudes who like to sit around, worship at the altar of Selene from afar while
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we're in this hotel room and talk a little bit about Alex Jones.
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Oh indeed we are Dan.
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Jordan.
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Dan.
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Jordan.
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Quick question for you.
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My bright spot, Jordan, is, I'm going to steal yours.
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You've already stolen mine!
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You fighting with Robert Barnes on Twitter.
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No, that one wasn't mine.
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Oh.
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No, that's not mine, but yes.
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I thought that was going to be for sure.
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One of the great delights of my life, yes.
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An Infowars character accidentally stepped into your Twitter mentions and got blown up
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with all people saying good work Barnes, getting ratioed like crazy.
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Oh man, I wouldn't have a nickname that is that belittling and then step into that arena.
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That would be me.
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I would avoid that.
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It was fun to see, of all the Twitter nonsense that you're getting into, that it was definitely
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a peak for me.
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Yes.
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Yeah, yeah.
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What about you?
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My bright spot, or my, I mean, my dark spot, I don't know.
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Whatever it is, we found out today that the man, the myth, the legend, will be testifying
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in open court.
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Tomorrow, Alex Jones is supposed to take the stand in the trial as we're recording this,
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or it'll basically be today as the episode's coming out.
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Right.
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And you would think, because here's why it's my bright spot, because if you were a wise
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man who was going to testify on your own behalf, you would absolutely stick to what you said
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in your deposition, thus proving that you are not a liar.
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That seems like it's going to be tough.
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Oh yeah.
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Yeah, because he said a lot of things in that deposition.
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Oh yeah.
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Yeah, I think that'll be wild to see, and I don't know what to expect.
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I think I'm going to shave my beard so I can be super incognito.
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We should definitely be doing that.
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But yeah, we'll see.
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We'll be there and give you all a full report on the other side.
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Of course.
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As we're recording today, as opposed to an episode talking about what's going on on Alex's
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show, I thought it would be fun to have a guest come in and talk about the goings on
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here in the trial, talk about some of the experiences that we've been seeing, some of
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the coverage.
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No way.
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Would it be a guest who is also in Austin?
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Yes.
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No way.
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Yes, but not in the room with us.
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Absolutely not.
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This stuff is dicey.
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But welcoming back to the podcast, Elizabeth Williamson.
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Thank you for joining us.
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Hey, you guys.
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Good to be not with you.
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Now let me ask you this.
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What is your bright spot?
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Ooh yeah, obviously.
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Oh my gosh.
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So, okay.
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So completely not trial related.
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My bright spot was that for the first time since I've been here, which is almost a week,
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I did get out for a run this morning and it was only 90 as opposed to 101.
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So you must've gone for that run at like 3 AM or something?
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It was at about 6.30.
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I would have figured it would be 110 by then.
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Yeah, no kidding.
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Yeah.
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Well, by the end, I have to say by the end it was getting close to Vomitsville temperature.
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Totally.
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Well, congratulations on mustering the drive to do that.
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I've been telling myself I'm going to go to the gym in our hotel for, well, we've been
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here a week.
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I've been saying it for a week and instead I have s'mores snack mix.
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I'm glad you enjoy them.
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I bought them for you.
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I think I did tell you guys about the shameful moment where I went out to go for a run and
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I wound up at Voodoo Donuts.
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And I told you there is no shame in that.
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I'm running away from being healthy.
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Yeah, that was really...
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What'd you get at the Voodoo Donuts?
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So they have a limited edition banana cream pie donut.
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Yeah, that was a lot of frosting.
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And then the diet donut that I got just to feel a little bit better about myself.
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So it's the Voodoo Donuts version of a salad.
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Cinnamon cake donut.
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Ooh, yeah.
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I got this peanut butter banana thing that was- Some sort of an Elvis situation?
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No idea, but it was the size of a horse's flank.
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Like it was absurd to try and fit that anywhere near my mouth.
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I'm ashamed to say that over two days I ate a third of it.
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Ooh, yeah.
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Mine was so sort of sticky that I couldn't really finish it.
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And then I didn't know what to do with it because I didn't want to throw it into the
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hotel wastebasket.
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Your room will just smell like donuts.
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I actually put it in the toilet.
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I thought this was going to be a, I threw it off a balcony situation.
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I really thought that we were going to a different direction.
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I mean, did you leave it there?
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It's a solution to the problem.
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No, I flushed it.
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It was kind of like cutting out the middleman, right?
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That is crafty.
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Oh, the alligators got a little bit bigger yesterday.
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And they all smell like bananas.
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I personally can't get away from the oh captain, my captain, the captain crunch donut.
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And I hate myself every single time.
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Oh, it's good.
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I eat it.
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It's kind of stressful.
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And you don't really know unless you do the QR code, which I'm not very good at what your
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choices are.
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So I'm looking at the sort of revolving, you know, that old school bakery, you know, like
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diner revolving display as you get up to the checkout and you're like, all right, what
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do I choose?
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What do I choose?
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It's kind of a, it's a stressful moment.
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So I did see that, that poster.
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I'm going to tell you something in a non misogynist way.
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I'm going to do my best to do this.
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Okay.
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They deliver baby.
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Yeah.
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Oh, they do.
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They'll bring it to your door.
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Yeah.
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I had to do that myself because I, I couldn't handle, well, basically the moment that you're
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describing was the, uh, the kid in the candy store, but like, I'm not a kid.
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I'm not going to soup Nazi a donut.
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You bring it to my home.
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Exactly.
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I, it was kind of fun though, to go there early in the morning because it's a combination
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of people who are like you who really want to get there before the line forms and people
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who are waiting for you to buy them one and give it to them on the street.
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So yeah, when I was in town for the depositions, I went there at night.
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I went there at like, uh, after we'd all got done with everything, I think it was probably
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like 11 or something and there were just drunk people hanging out at food or donuts.
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Totally.
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I think it is kind of an after the, yeah, after the party kind of place.
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I'm not sure that's what I want after a big night.
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If you're a donut shop that stays open past 11 you are giving drunk people donuts.
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That's your business model.
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I want, I want nachos or something filled with chili.
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I think if I went there after the bars, yeah, I'd want like some kind of chili thing.
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I think you just created a situation that gives Dan a heart attack in two years.
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Yeah.
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Chili, Mac, chili and mac and cheese inside a donut.
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Oh, there's a million dollar idea Liz.
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You've killed him.
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You've killed my best friend.
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How dare you?
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It's like a pastry turducken.
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So good.
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So good.
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Chili, mac and cheese.
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All right.
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Liz, we are here not just for donuts, although they are more positive in many ways than a
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lot of the other stuff that's that's happening in town.
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I think that's why we fled to that subject.
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Yeah.
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You got it.
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Greener pastures, flushing donuts.
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I told you that, that's kind of a shameful episode.
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Hey, listen, you didn't tell us, you told everybody.
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I know, I did.
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This is humanizing.
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Yes, yes.
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Who amongst the wonks has not flushed a donut?
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I will tell you, it is very rare to not find a fresh donut.
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It wasn't a whole big thing.
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I just, you know, I didn't, I didn't destroy the environment or ruin the plumbing.
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Good, good.
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Only my own plumbing by eating most of it.
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That is how much we don't want to get to the trial is that we almost got there and then
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immediately we're like, nope, back to donuts.
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You turned.
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So I wanted to ask you a little bit, because we're all in town to observe and experience
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this trial.
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You in a far more professional capacity than us, but you also have had more experience
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on this story in particular, you know, following the Sandy Hook story with your book that came
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out recently.
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To engage in a cliche, you literally wrote the book on this case.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So I was wondering how you've experienced it so far.
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So I have to say, you know, I, I worried about a little bit because as you say, you know,
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writing the book, I got kind of invested in definitely the plight of the families and
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got to know them pretty well.
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And and today I, you know, listening to Mr. Crouch, the therapist who has worked with
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Neil Hezlin and Scarlett Lewis, I did have a couple moments where I was, I really got
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a little bit emotional about, you know, what he had to say about their struggle, you know,
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with everything, you know, and he described this sort of two buckets, one, you lose your
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son in a mass shooting, and the second bucket, people call you a liar and say that not only
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was he not killed in that way that he never existed.
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And and at one point, you know, they that Mr. Crouch, the therapist was being, you know,
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prompted to say, Well, what does that actually mean?
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You know, when when as a parent, you're kind of dealing with those claims.
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And he said, you know, it's just so important to Neil and Scarlett, Jesse's parents that
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he mattered, you know, that, that this was and Jesse in particular, has a very particular
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narrative.
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And that's that, you know, he, when the gunman entered his classroom and started shooting,
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there was a pause in the shooting where either the magazine jammed or he was reloading.
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And Jesse yelled run, and nine children ran, and they survived.
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And so, you know, one thing that I'm sure that Neil and Scarlett will speak about is
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that he was actually given fallen heroes funeral, because the police, you know, recognize that
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as an act of heroism.
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And the children who survived said what had happened, and that's how they knew.
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So that part of his life is tremendously important to Neil and Scarlett, as you can imagine,
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and this idea that that would be taken from them.
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The first thing they they both told me, and I met them separately.
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But the first thing they told me was that story.
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And so it's so important to them and to have that strip from them.
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You know, and their their therapist, obviously, described it so well, it is it's like saying,
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you know, it's, it's taking that last bit that someone would cling to, and saying that
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these were his final moments, he was a fine child and and saved his classmates in his
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final moments, and to think that someone in order to sell supplements, or, you know, I
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would take that that that shred from you is really, that really got me I gotta say,
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you know, the the thing that got me about that is the, the therapist, as much and as
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powerful as that story was, when he was asked, what's the most important thing to the parents?
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What's the most important thing to them?
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He didn't say that his he was remembered as a hero, or he was remembered as somebody who
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saved anybody.
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He choked up.
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And he said, the most important thing to me, or the most important thing to the parents
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is just to let people know to let the world know that he lived.
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Yeah,
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that he mattered.
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That word he mattered.
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That was when I actually did have to look down and compose myself.
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Oh, I cried like a baby.
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I was in my hotel room.
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I didn't have to worry about people like judging me in the courtroom, weeping uncontrollably.
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Yeah.
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That and you know why because that those words were Veronique de la Rosa, who is the mother
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of Noah posner, who is the youngest Sandy Hook victim.
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She right after the shooting, she said the same thing to Anderson Cooper in an interview.
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She said, I just want people to know that he mattered.
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He mattered, you know, and that, that, I don't know something about that for now I'm going
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to have to take a beat here.
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But take your time formulation is you know, like, it just speaks to how much is stripped
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from you when you lose a loved one in this way, particularly your child, that you're
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then kind of by yourself saying, he mattered.
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I mean, really, that's, that just speaks to the utter desolation.
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That that these parents must feel.
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Yeah, I found I found almost everything that went on today.
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Quite heavy and impactful.
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Yeah, of course.
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For a lot of those the same reasons we're touching on.
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And that's one reason that I think I want to I want to ask you about a couple of questions
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about the trial just because after we heard that testimony, we also saw the way that the
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defense behaved in their cross examination and how the the judge was not happy with their
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behavior.
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Did you did you experience that in in that kind of way?
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Yeah.
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And so here's an interesting thing.
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So as you can well imagine, there are a lot of lawyers in these parts who are watching
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this trial because as we know, it's live streamed.
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I know one of them was fighting with Jordan on Twitter earlier.
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Hell yeah, really.
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Yeah, good work, Barnes.
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Yeah, okay him.
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But also a lot of regular lawyers who are watching this and are just riveted by this
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because it's such a challenging case for you know, the the families lawyers, obviously.
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And certainly for Alex Jones's lawyers, but yeah, but they were saying, you know, one
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of the things that you know, the unenviable position that Alex Jones's lawyer is in is
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that he of course cannot attack Neil and Scarlett when they testify tomorrow.
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So the alternative that he has is to attack, you know, Dr. Lubit, who was the you know,
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the forensic psychiatrist who had, you know, spoken with them, and to attack Mr. Crouch,
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their actual therapist.
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So it's, you know, lower stakes to try and impeach them than to go head to head, of course,
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with Jesse's parents.
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So so that was sort of interesting.
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But because the therapist, Mr. Crouch was so kind of a sympathetic character himself,
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I mean, he actually filled up when he said that about, he mattered, you know, he was
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filling up himself and, you know, he obviously feels very deeply, you know, for Neil and
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Scarlett and for Jesse and JT, his older brother.
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And so I think it was a lot more difficult than they had anticipated.
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This wasn't a clinical guy, you know, this was somebody who was really very much invested
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in the plight of this family.
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And I think that made it super tough to kind of uncross come back and say, well, what about
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this?
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And that whole thing of showing him the diagnostic manual, the DSM-5 was just bizarre episodes
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because my favorite thing that I think has ever happened, I've ever seen it.
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It looked like he just Googled something he tried to he tried to catch.
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So what happened was he was trying to catch, you're talking about the defense lawyers,
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the defense lawyer was trying to catch the therapist in like a, you don't know the exact
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definition of PTSD, do you?
Unknown Speaker (00:19:22.059)
So the first thing he did was he tried to bring up the definition to the therapist and
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realized that he had brought the wrong version of the DSM, which was an issue.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:33.059)
So then he went to the APA's website to try and find the definition in the DSM-5.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:40.759)
However, he found the APA's summary definition of the DSM-5 and in so doing revealed that
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he had no idea what he was talking about, the therapist went, I don't think I know what
Unknown Speaker (00:19:54.480)
you're talking.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:55.480)
I don't think I know what you're showing me.
Unknown Speaker (00:19:57.559)
And then he just changed questions.
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And then the lawyer turned around and ran into a chef, 100% absolutely, absolutely.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:04.000)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:05.000)
Oh no, there are two guys walking by holding a glass pane.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:10.559)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:11.559)
I was watching, I was watching that and I did, I found it to be really uncomfortable
Unknown Speaker (00:20:15.640)
because even executed well, I don't really know how that's going to play.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:22.200)
And then just the fumbling of it was tragic.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:25.440)
That was really grim.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:26.440)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:27.440)
And isn't it funny, like no matter who you're watching, it's a public performance.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:34.059)
And so you're kind of cringing, no matter, you know, like just, just taking out, you
Unknown Speaker (00:20:41.000)
know, lawyers for the defense, lawyers for the plaintiffs, you know, just taking all
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that out.
Unknown Speaker (00:20:46.319)
It's a public performance.
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So whenever anyone stumbles or there's some kind of, you know, weird, awkward thing that
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happens, you're just sort of vicariously cringing for them, regardless of where you are on the,
Unknown Speaker (00:20:58.839)
you know, the case at hand.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:00.440)
And so, yes, in that one, I was like, oh my gosh, like how, you know, how did that happen?
Unknown Speaker (00:21:07.279)
On the one hand, it's pretty daring to do this sort of ad hoc, I'm going to look something
Unknown Speaker (00:21:13.359)
up, you know, and I'm going to find it and I'm going to present it in open court.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:16.920)
And but, but you were sort of, I found myself thinking, well, he is a therapist.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:23.400)
And the DSM is something that therapists consult routinely.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:27.720)
So if you thought that you were going to call, you know, these definitions into question,
Unknown Speaker (00:21:34.160)
maybe just go out to the bookstore and
Unknown Speaker (00:21:37.759)
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:42.000)
Like I said, daring is a fun word that you're using there.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:46.799)
It seems like desperate or dumb.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:51.200)
Tragically stupid.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:52.720)
Foolhardy.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:53.720)
Foolhardy is a great word.
Unknown Speaker (00:21:56.000)
I'll leave that to y'all to use my Texas, you know, just my little acquired Texas thing.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:02.000)
I should tell you, I have Googled a thesaurus.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:06.720)
I don't know the exact definitions of any of these words.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:09.319)
But, um, yeah, I know I just that I did not understand I, you know,
Unknown Speaker (00:22:19.880)
I who do you think possibly understood that?
Unknown Speaker (00:22:24.000)
Did anyone understand that no one?
Unknown Speaker (00:22:26.759)
Do you think anyone has ever even seen that before?
Unknown Speaker (00:22:29.359)
Right?
Unknown Speaker (00:22:30.359)
Like in real court?
Unknown Speaker (00:22:31.359)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:32.359)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:33.359)
Well, you know what, probably so.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:35.920)
I mean, in cases, you know, where, you know, you have people, I imagine it comes up, but
Unknown Speaker (00:22:44.119)
I'm, I'm really, yeah, I'm really trying to understand Yeah, I don't I did not understand
Unknown Speaker (00:22:56.400)
what happened there.
Unknown Speaker (00:22:59.759)
That must be one of those pillow pounding middle of the night moments for that lawyer.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:03.680)
I just
Unknown Speaker (00:23:04.680)
You'd hope, but I mean, like, also, I get the sense from, I don't know, maybe just a
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vibe I'm getting off of him.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:12.000)
I don't think he beats himself up too much for coming off poorly.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:17.000)
That's just my sense.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:18.000)
Definitely not.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:20.000)
Texas Monthly is apparently doing a profile of Alex Jones's lawyer, Federico Andino Renaud.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:29.400)
And I will read that huge interest.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:32.000)
His name is Federico Andino Renaud.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:34.920)
Oh, what's his name again?
Unknown Speaker (00:23:37.799)
I'm sorry, I'm just kidding.
Unknown Speaker (00:23:42.359)
And you know, I think he's kind of like, from what the Texas Monthly reporter was telling
Unknown Speaker (00:23:50.380)
me, they are and and, and the lawyers for the families that that he's kind of that,
Unknown Speaker (00:23:58.519)
like a well known family name around here.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:02.220)
He had been an assistant US attorney, he was appointed by Eric Holder, I think, Jordan,
Unknown Speaker (00:24:10.039)
you picked up on that when I was tweeting that about his history.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:15.240)
And that it's not a matter of, you know, okay, sometimes it's, you know, this person will
Unknown Speaker (00:24:23.500)
pay you or what have you that it's, there's some idea here that, you know, that that thing
Unknown Speaker (00:24:33.500)
that lawyers say, you know, everybody deserves a defense might be more that than the payday.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:41.160)
Oh, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:42.160)
Oh, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:43.160)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:44.160)
Yeah, I'm sure I've seen his mentor sitting in court right next to him the entire time.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:51.920)
I'm sure it is not about money situation.
Unknown Speaker (00:24:54.680)
Oh, it's all about, it's all about everybody deserves their day in court, right?
Unknown Speaker (00:24:59.720)
Well, I mean, it's also like, to quote the wire, you know, it's a career fucking case.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:04.000)
That's true.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:05.000)
You know, like, this is the kind of thing that can really, but you know what, I gotta
Unknown Speaker (00:25:09.480)
say, like, recognizing that aspect of his history that it makes some of the stuff that's
Unknown Speaker (00:25:15.759)
going on look way worse.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:17.839)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:18.839)
I mean, there are, there have been repeated instances where he's shown witnesses, things
Unknown Speaker (00:25:23.000)
that he hasn't taken by to the plaintiff's attorneys for approval, which they've pointed
Unknown Speaker (00:25:28.680)
out a couple of times is like, yeah, those aren't mistakes that someone of that caliber
Unknown Speaker (00:25:35.680)
would make.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:36.680)
That's a strategic, at least not after mistake number four, then it's, you've got to expect
Unknown Speaker (00:25:44.140)
it's on purpose and the, the, um, getting into a fight with Mark Bankston and like giving
Unknown Speaker (00:25:50.119)
them the bird in court.
Unknown Speaker (00:25:51.480)
Like these are really, that felt like for me that, um, just observing that, that felt
Unknown Speaker (00:26:01.359)
to me like suddenly he realized this is not the place I want to be.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:10.640)
I don't want to be within a thousand miles of where I am.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:14.279)
I am kind of getting beaten up here in this case and yeah, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm
Unknown Speaker (00:26:23.880)
really trying to like keep a 30,000 foot view here.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:28.140)
But to me, it felt like that moment in a wrestling match when someone's losing and they go for
Unknown Speaker (00:26:33.519)
a chair trying to get themselves disqualified as a fan of words, better way of putting it
Unknown Speaker (00:26:39.480)
than anything I can come up with right now.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:41.400)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:42.400)
As a fan of words, I'm going to have to go with my favorite adjective for him at this
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current time, which is eviscerated.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:48.319)
He's literally had his guts ripped from his body.
Unknown Speaker (00:26:51.440)
Yeah, because it came, that moment came, um, after, you know, the judge had admonished him
Unknown Speaker (00:27:00.519)
yet again and, um, he was losing that battle over exhibits and he was feeling frustrated
Unknown Speaker (00:27:07.559)
because who knows, maybe in his mind he genuinely felt like he'd been done dirty.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:13.079)
I don't know, but it just felt like a kind of like volcanic frustration that happened
Unknown Speaker (00:27:19.160)
right there.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:20.160)
Um, and for, you know, if he's like this kind of well-bred guy that, you know, we're hearing,
Unknown Speaker (00:27:26.759)
um, then it's super surprising that he would be a childish bully, a well-bred guy being
Unknown Speaker (00:27:32.519)
a childish bully, giving people the finger whenever they embarrass him.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:36.299)
That's crazy.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:37.299)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:38.299)
That's the equivalent of picking up a chair and smashing it on the side.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:41.480)
You know what I mean?
Unknown Speaker (00:27:42.480)
That's, that's something that, you know, you can't do.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:45.200)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:46.200)
It's, it's wild.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:47.200)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:48.200)
But the thing that was sad was that, that all, that whole confrontation happened with
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the parents of a murdered child standing 10 feet away.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:58.000)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:27:59.000)
And I think strategically when the, uh, judge wasn't in the room.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:02.839)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:03.839)
Like, I don't think he would have behaved that way if, uh, if judge Gamble was in there.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:09.559)
She said today that if she were available, she would have held him in contempt of court.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:14.079)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:15.079)
Correct.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:16.079)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:17.079)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:18.079)
She said, had I seen, had I been in the room when that happened?
Unknown Speaker (00:28:19.920)
Um, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:21.200)
So she was definitely, I kind of, I kind of love as a defense for not doing anything is
Unknown Speaker (00:28:26.079)
like, well, because I only saw accurate live video of it occurring, I can't do anything
Unknown Speaker (00:28:32.720)
about the ref didn't see the chair.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:34.359)
I mean, that isn't what it is, isn't it?
Unknown Speaker (00:28:38.680)
The ref turned his back and then they hit him with the chair and then he turned around
Unknown Speaker (00:28:42.680)
and he was like, well, I can't prove it.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:44.640)
It's like, if I turn around while I'm driving this car and I see what you're doing to your
Unknown Speaker (00:28:49.400)
brother, then there will be problems.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:52.200)
Like, I know it's happening, but the minute I see it with my own eyes, you kids are in
Unknown Speaker (00:28:57.640)
trouble.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:58.640)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:28:59.640)
You have the ability to do something once, uh, once it's observed.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:04.640)
Not to, not to ask you a question, uh, that might be uncomfortable, but exactly how many
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times have you felt like you and the judge are both moms really trying to handle unruly
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children?
Unknown Speaker (00:29:21.799)
I think that is kind of a theme here.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:24.559)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:25.559)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:26.559)
I mean, I think about that with Alex Jones.
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I mean, just his behavior and the, you know, relatively rare occasions he turns up for
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the proceedings.
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It's like this kid who has stalled out in middle school, you know, I mean, even the,
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the whole idea that he's traveling around, surrounded by bodyguards, I'm sort of thinking
Unknown Speaker (00:29:49.400)
like a high school hallway and you know, he's sort of like bought lunch for the whole football
Unknown Speaker (00:29:55.920)
team.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:56.920)
Oh my God, there's 10 other people.
Unknown Speaker (00:29:59.400)
There's exactly 11 people with Alex.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:02.160)
It is literally the star quarterback being surrounded by the rest of the team.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:06.400)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:07.400)
It's a defensive line.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:08.960)
I swear to God, I'll, I'll pay for your lunch if you just follow me down the hall to my
Unknown Speaker (00:30:13.160)
locker so no one beats me up.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:15.440)
I need, I need a big, a big muscle guys with guns too.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:20.640)
So actually I wanted to talk about one thing that did happen.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:23.319)
I've made reference of this on a previous episode, but you experienced it.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:28.480)
So I wanted to get your take on it.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:29.759)
It was from Tuesday of last week when Alex was there and was giving his little, he was
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doing the press conference out in front of the the courthouse.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:41.880)
Oh yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:42.880)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:43.880)
This this was a situation where there was no one but security guards and you and Sebastian
Unknown Speaker (00:30:49.880)
Murdoch, uh, I believe in what was going on there from, uh, from, uh, Hearst.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:57.559)
Oh, okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:58.559)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:30:59.559)
We had one other person.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:00.559)
Whoa, whoa, whoa, Dan.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:01.559)
Stop being so inaccurate.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:02.559)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:03.559)
Taking it out of context.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:07.559)
Anyways.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:08.559)
Sorry.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:09.559)
Sorry Liz.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:10.559)
I was, I was observing this from a safe distance and what it appeared to me.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:16.720)
Where were you like three blocks away?
Unknown Speaker (00:31:20.279)
I had binoculars.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:21.279)
I was on the roof of the building across the street, I was in the book depository, no,
Unknown Speaker (00:31:27.559)
I was maybe, right.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:30.680)
I was maybe 20 feet away, um, sort of just standing and, uh, vaping and, uh, giggling
Unknown Speaker (00:31:38.420)
a little bit because the spectacle of it was, was truly bizarre.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:42.519)
Um, and it appeared that my assessment was he didn't know, uh, what he didn't know that
Unknown Speaker (00:31:50.799)
you were you and that Sebastian was Sebastian.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:53.400)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:54.400)
I think that's fair.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:55.519)
He just thought this was media.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:57.160)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:58.160)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:31:59.160)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:00.160)
Which is makes them happy.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:01.359)
Give me an idea of how many times you have met and spoken to Alex Jones via any different
Unknown Speaker (00:32:07.359)
Liz was masked up to be true.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:10.039)
True.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:11.039)
True.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:12.039)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:13.039)
Um, well I've never recognized anybody who was wearing a mask before, so I do understand
Unknown Speaker (00:32:17.240)
now that it makes perfect Alex has eye blindness.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:22.240)
He's face blind.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:23.240)
Um, so yeah, I mean I spent a lot of time with him, but it was in 2018 so I think, and
Unknown Speaker (00:32:31.759)
also I think in the heat of the, you know, like publicity moment, I think he just sees,
Unknown Speaker (00:32:37.880)
as you said, you know, I think he just sees people recording him as generic media, as
Unknown Speaker (00:32:45.359)
an audience, you know, like sort of faceless audience.
Unknown Speaker (00:32:50.660)
And so he was talking to, he did ask John from Hearst, you know, where are you from?
Unknown Speaker (00:32:56.640)
And John told him, and he seemed to think, okay, this guy's safe to talk to.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:01.440)
And in fact, props to John because he did ask him, so what is this medical condition
Unknown Speaker (00:33:08.240)
that your lawyers are saying is keeping you from being here?
Unknown Speaker (00:33:14.559)
I've got super cancer.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:16.160)
And he was like, oh, it's just not important.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:20.920)
And John being a really good journalist was like, this says that it's important.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:28.180)
So he was like, well, but really, you know, what is it?
Unknown Speaker (00:33:31.319)
And he goes, ah, it's not a big thing.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:32.319)
And he goes, no, really.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:33.319)
What is it?
Unknown Speaker (00:33:34.319)
And he goes, well, it's a hernia.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:37.319)
So he has an untreated hernia and that is the medical condition that has prevented him
Unknown Speaker (00:33:48.720)
from sitting through the trial.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:51.079)
I don't even believe that.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:52.440)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:53.440)
I was going to say that doesn't even sound reasonable to me.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:55.519)
I know.
Unknown Speaker (00:33:56.519)
I thought he was going to say something like, you know, I got this thing on my forehead.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:00.839)
I have to get removed or honestly, I feel like my response to that is, do you even lift
Unknown Speaker (00:34:07.559)
bro?
Unknown Speaker (00:34:08.559)
Like, I feel like that's my okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:10.119)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:11.119)
Well, you can get a hernia just from yelling probably.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:14.480)
I'm sure if that is true.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:16.440)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:17.440)
I would have asked if it was his like fifth or sixth bout of COVID that he's dealing with.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:22.039)
Right.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:23.039)
Because he seems to keep getting that.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:24.519)
He was coughing.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:25.519)
Another reason to keep my mask on.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:28.079)
Smart.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:29.079)
Smart.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:30.079)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:31.079)
So how long did it take for him to realize that this was not unknown media to him?
Unknown Speaker (00:34:37.519)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:38.519)
I think when, so Seb from from HuffPost, Seb Murdock asked him, well, what about this cryptocurrency
Unknown Speaker (00:34:48.000)
that you got as an anonymous donation because he was saying I'm bankrupt, I'm bankrupt,
Unknown Speaker (00:34:52.679)
I'm bankrupt.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:53.679)
So bankrupt.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:54.679)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:34:55.679)
And, and Seb said, well, what about that 8 million?
Unknown Speaker (00:34:57.679)
And he said, well, it was actually, by the time we sold it, it was only worth seven.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:02.800)
I, I, I, I retract my criticism.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:07.559)
That is fair.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:08.559)
Yeah, exactly.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:09.559)
So, you know, to most people that does not equal bankrupt.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:13.559)
And so he, you know, persisted.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:15.880)
And then he said, I said something like, well, didn't you just pay a million dollars in sanctions?
Unknown Speaker (00:35:23.400)
And he was like, yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:25.760)
And I said, so you're not exactly broke.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:29.300)
And he was like, but when I pay it, it means it's gone, Walnut Brain.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:37.239)
That is a man who's got the goods.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:40.239)
Yes.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:41.239)
And I was thinking, if you really wanted to insult me, like, why wouldn't you pick like
Unknown Speaker (00:35:46.679)
a smaller, you know, item?
Unknown Speaker (00:35:49.880)
Like, listen, Brazil, not brain.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:51.639)
I was going to say, like, why aren't you just following me on Twitter and grabbing a couple
Unknown Speaker (00:35:55.300)
from there?
Unknown Speaker (00:35:56.300)
They are universal.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:57.300)
I'm not like that personal.
Unknown Speaker (00:35:59.000)
So you are, you're, you're pretty sure at that point, once Walnut Brain comes out,
Unknown Speaker (00:36:03.880)
I think he kind of like, it was a dawning recognition that this, Oh, this is that woman.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:10.840)
Yeah, I get it.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:12.000)
This is that woman from the New York times.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:13.840)
Cause then he said this, Oh no, he, he did look over while he was talking to seven.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:19.119)
He said, you know, this is, this is a trial of the media.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:22.280)
These are, these are fraud, like that New York times person right there.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:26.519)
And then, and then I asked about the million dollars and he said, Walnut Brain.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:31.559)
And then he went into this thing saying this person is a monster and a fraud.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:36.599)
And so I was sort of like, Walnut Brain, monster fraud, trifecta.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:41.360)
Well here's, here's the good news.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:42.559)
The only people he's saying these terrible things about you to is his security.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:49.840)
There's no one else there.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:51.119)
So yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:52.119)
And then, you know, at least if it's bodyguards, it's good to be Walnut Brain and not, you
Unknown Speaker (00:36:57.719)
know, armed threat.
Unknown Speaker (00:36:59.519)
True.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:00.519)
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:01.519)
Armed loner.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:02.519)
It really, it really did take a while for me to remember whenever the bodyguards were
Unknown Speaker (00:37:06.800)
sitting next to me, it took me a while for me to remember, like, they can't bring guns
Unknown Speaker (00:37:11.440)
into the courtroom.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:12.440)
You realize that Jordan, like that's not okay.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:16.480)
And they're not going to like push you in a court room.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:21.800)
They have a license to push.
Unknown Speaker (00:37:22.960)
For money?
Unknown Speaker (00:37:23.960)
Yes.
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Okay.
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That's fair.
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Um, I, I was, I was watching all of this and I thought it was really fun because I could
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see a shift happening in the conversation.
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And then after the shift, uh, once it became a little bit hostile, um, Alex put on the
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bumper sticker on his face and took a picture with his lawyer.
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And I've actually been really offended that some outlets have run with that picture on
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their story.
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It was such an obvious gambit.
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It's such a, it's a, it's a well-framed picture.
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I will give, I will give the photographer that, but it's like, I was there when it was
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taken.
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This is Alex with a dumb bumper sticker on his mouth that he put on for show, shaking
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hands with his lawyer while no one watched.
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Yeah.
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Like it was, it's, I don't know, it kind of did that in the courtroom too.
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I mean, he, he, when he first sat down, like even before opening arguments began on the
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first day, he pulled that out.
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He put it over his face.
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He mugged for, um, Federico and Dino Reynal, his, his lawyer, um, and even left now, Dan's
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even laughing now when you say his real name.
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Well, it's a long day.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I just feel like, um, it's important to be accurate.
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So, um, yeah, so he was sort of mugging for, for him and then he put, he didn't put it
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away.
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I mean, you know, uh, Reynal gave him the side eye kind of like, don't do that.
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The parents are sitting right there, you know, jury is there.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Like, you know, I'm not the only person that you're entertaining with this.
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You're definitely, you know, doing this in view of the parents and, and this plays on
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your show, but this isn't that.
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Yeah, exactly.
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That's a good question.
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Can I ask you this real quick, real quick?
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Do you, are you surprised?
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Like I, I really never thought I would be surprised at what happened, but for some reason
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I really thought when it actually came to being in the courtroom, there's no way they
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would behave like the way, like they had to have prepared.
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They've had so much time, right?
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Yeah.
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Are you surprised?
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You know, yes and no.
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So one thing is that, first of all, I get this sense from Reynal, his lawyer, that,
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that he feels like, oh, I'm not sure what I got myself into.
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I think that that, you know, explosion with the, you know, flipping the bird and all that,
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you know, it was, was a sort of expression of that.
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I think today what happened to him with the DSM was another, you know, I think he feels
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like, oh my God, I don't know what I got myself into.
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The, the idea that he was trying to kind of waffle about actually whether Jones would
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testify or not when, you know, he's been saying on his, you know, on his show, like, I'm so
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keen to testify.
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And then he had to go check with them.
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I think these are all sort of, you know, indications that, oh boy, you know, he should have known
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what he was getting himself into, but I don't think he was fully prepared for that if, and
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that's not exactly a knock on him because is anyone ever fully prepared for things that
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Alex Jones does, but I'm going to have, I'm going to have a disagreement with you there
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real quick.
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I feel like any kind of preparation, any kind of preparation, even the slightest amount
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does not wind up with you having 10 minutes left to call your main witness as to whether
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or not they will take the stand.
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Fair.
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Fair.
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That was bananas.
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Also there were all the previous lawyers, it could have been like, Hey, what should
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I expect?
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What should I do?
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Yeah.
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Oh yeah.
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Oh, you mean like the 12 previous lawyers?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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You could have had a focus group of his previous lawyers.
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You could have had one phone call.
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We have a Baker's dozen.
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Yes.
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It would have been like a, a crowded zoom of his previous lawyers where you could say,
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what advice do you have for me?
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But yeah, I can't do that with one of Alex's lawyers.
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You're going to get a tube in.
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That's just going to happen.
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Yeah.
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Sure.
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So he said, um, yeah, so he, I said, well, is Alex going to testify?
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And he said, it's all up to Alex.
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And I said, do you mean all of it?
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And he was like, yep, everything.
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It's all up to Alex.
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And I got, you know how that goes?
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It seems like a lot of stuff in his, his life is that it seems like there's not a lot of
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great counsel in many areas or anybody really telling him, Hey, cut it out.
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Yeah.
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I just, I, I would be so curious to know, you know, who knows really like, does he go
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home and say, well, that went about how I expected or, Oh my God, I can't believe I
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got myself into this.
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You know, I, I think it might be the latter.
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If you're talking about Alex, he goes home and says, hello, whiskey, my old friend.
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I'm talking about his lawyer.
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Yeah.
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I don't know about him.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So that I, you know, I don't know.
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Um, but yeah, no, I agree.
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I, there, there have been a lot of moments.
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I think he's actually, you can tell that he is a criminal prosecutor by the way he cross
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examines the witnesses.
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He's pretty aggressive.
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He's he also just kind of rolls with it when the judge kind of slaps him down on the various
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things like we talked about.
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Um, he, he's pretty quick on his feet coming back from that kind of thing.
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Um, but that's not to say that this is going well because boy, it's just, even if no one
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said a word, just the idea of Alex Jones and a Sandy Hook family, you don't have to say
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a word to know that this is probably going to be a tough rodeo.
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You know, the ironic thing is it hadn't occurred to me until I was watching him and then put
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it together that he was a criminal defense lawyer and then started thinking about what
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a or no, a criminal prosecutor and then started thinking about what they do.
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And then I started thinking 96% of cases go to a plea bargain in, in that kind of court.
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So this is probably a guy who's really good at doing paperwork and like negotiating with
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other lawyers as to what's an acceptable sentence.
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Doesn't end up with a lot of trials as opposed to going to an actual trial because he does
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not have experience in a trial.
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I just, I just can't believe that he does.
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Yeah.
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I think some of the lawyers who have been, who have been watching this and kind of weighing
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in, you know, just completely disinterested except for the fact that they're lawyers and
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this is fascinating, um, would disagree with you there.
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They actually get a lot of prosecutorial courtroom experience.
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Um, on the other side, I discussed how I don't care what lawyers think, but on the, but on
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the other side, you know, um, in some of these personal injury cases or, you know, lawyers
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who are tort lawyers, um, in fact, the father of Josh Koskov, who represents the Sandy Hook
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families in Connecticut, um, his dad has since passed away, but I interviewed him for the
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book and, um, and he said, uh, you know, one of the funny things that has happened is that
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people settle so frequently that we get less and less time in the courtroom.
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So one of the reasons that this is catnip for the legal community is that you have,
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uh, two sets of lawyers who actually have a decent amount of courtroom experience.
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And so it's, it is kind of fascinating to see Raynal kind of
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shit the bed like a fucking idiot, be unprepared. And, and we have different ways of describing
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the same thing.
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Yes, we do. Um, but, but yeah, I mean, it is, it, the whole thing is, if it weren't
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so tragic, I think it would be in a textbook kind of way, really fascinating.
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You know, rarely, rarely anybody drags their feet this long or, or, or, you know, pushes
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it this far.
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Yes, exactly. Exactly. And then that determination to kind of roll back the clock and say, this
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is a defamation trial. No, it's not. You lost that, you know, because you, because you had
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complete contempt for the judicial system. So you lost your opportunity to make this
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a free speech case because you didn't wind up at trial because you would not comply with
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any, you know, not any, but most of the court orders and most of, you know, what you're
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supposed to do to prepare for that trial. So that ship has sailed and now here you are
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in a damages trial and you're trying to turn it into a signal test of free speech, which
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I think most people would have been, you know, interested in, but, um, that didn't happen
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because he stonewalled his way into a damages trial. And so he is where he is.
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And I think both he and his lawyer wish they were in a different place, but they're not.
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That's the thing that I find so frustrating about a lot of the responses that I see from
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people who are not like necessarily paying that close of attention, but the, uh, the
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like, you know, not recognizing that Alex absolutely would have gotten a trial on the
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merits if he just cooperated in any way. It's so frustrating to like hear that point be
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made and then people just not hear it, not listen, not understand that like the only
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reason that this is happening is because of his choices.
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I really almost want like every article written about it to begin with a timeline of the number
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of times that Alex could have just apologized and stopped with no lawsuit whatsoever could
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have just made a public apology and stopped with no lawsuit whatsoever. And then the number
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of times that once the lawsuit was brought, they could have done any billion number of
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things to keep it from getting to where we are now. And instead everybody keeps writing
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like the families are seeking damages.
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Well, that's, that's sort of template of how trials are expressed or, but I get where you're
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coming from.
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I have labored with that just in writing my stories, you know, say trying to say all the
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time that, you know, what they really want is, you know, they want that they are, I mean,
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this is the altruistic thing here. They really are trying to shine a light on the fact that
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the lies around Sandy Hook, you know, and here I'm like, you know, talking about what
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I talk about in my book and that's that, you know, it really was a foundational story of
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how misinformation has kind of taken hold in our discourse, you know, because it just
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went from, and, and Alex was at the center of a lot of this, you know, it went from that
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to, to Pizzagate, to QAnon, to coronavirus myths, to the stop the steal campaign, to,
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to the January 6th insurrection. And, you know, his fingerprints are on pretty much
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all of those at, Oh, and you can throw Charlottesville into the mix too, you know, placement theory.
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So, you know, his fingerprints are all over those developments. And so in that sense,
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this is kind of, it really is a kind of fake news on trial type thing.
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It really is.
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Yeah. And, and, you know, and I think that's one reason why people are so invested in it.
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And, and this defense that, that he's trying to put forward really does concern first amendment
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lawyers, this idea that there's so much garbage in the atmosphere. There are so many lies
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and mistruths in our national discourse right now that who's to know what's true or false.
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This seems like such a specious, cynical argument, but actually the more of this stuff that is
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floating out there, the more lies are, you know, are spread to millions of people. The
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more people will advance this defense and you will see it in these dominion voting systems
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cases. You'll see it in the January 6th insurrectionist cases. You'll have people who will say, like
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Alex Jones said in his deposition, I had a kind of psychosis because I was lied to so
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many times.
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In an interview with Glenn Greenwald, he just said he was drunk.
Unknown Speaker (00:50:41.460)
Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, it's a kind of insanity defense in a civil war.
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It's the, it's the Jamiroquai defense.
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I woke up the next morning and look what happened.
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Virtual insanity?
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Dan, come on.
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I, I, I, I didn't put the pieces together.
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Okay. All right. All right.
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I thought you were trying to pull a shaggy, it wasn't me or
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No, no, no, no.
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Afro man because I got high.
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Listen, I'm, I'm just going to go with Jamiroquai.
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Fine.
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Fine.
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Um, so one, one other thing I was just thinking about was that if Alex does take the stand
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tomorrow, um, that is going to be wild for a number of reasons. First of all, because
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he'll be, you know, I have to have cross examination, but then the other aspect of it is these questions
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that the jury has been giving.
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Oh shit.
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Have been pretty good.
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I love that practice.
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Yeah. It's cause I do think that there's a lot of things that probably need clarification
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from the jury's point of view that maybe the lawyers aren't aware of. And so I think that's
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really helpful, but I think it like based on the trend of the questions we've been seeing,
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they could ask some really messed up things to Alex. Um, well maybe not messed up, like,
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you know, bizarre or anything, but like pointed questions that he does not want to answer.
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And then he appears to be evasive to the jury's own questions. Like he puts himself in a really,
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really dangerous position there.
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Yeah. And that would be the best you could hope for that, that he would, you know, that
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he would have made them. I mean, that's the best dude.
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The worst is contempt, right? I mean like getting thrown out of court, exploding. Um,
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which is what he did in his custody trial. Remember, um, that was where, you know, it
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was like his ex wife had, um, attorneys who really knew how to get under his skin and
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he finally just exploded. I talked with Charlie Warzell about that cause he was in the courtroom
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and he was saying if, if it would have been a regular thing, a bailiff would have escorted
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him out.
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Wow.
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It was just, he just exploded and
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Well, it's good news for him because I'm sure Mark has no idea how to get under his skin.
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Yeah.
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Mark doesn't seem like the guy who knows how to get on under anybody's skin.
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From sitting in that deposition, I beg to differ. I think he's got a few of his numbers,
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but the good news is if a bailiff tries to get Alex out of the courtroom, Alex has a
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little army.
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That's right. That's right. Oh shit. We're going to have a standoff. Yeah. Yeah. I don't
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know. I mean, I don't know. It just, I, I wouldn't rule out, uh, the fact that, or the,
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not the fact, the possibility that, uh, Reynold, his lawyer is working on him right now just
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to say, Alex, I, unless you're going to like prostrate yourself before the, the court and,
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and abjectly apologize, there's probably not a lot you can say that's going to help you.
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Yeah. You, you, you being you, you know, that advice like that would be, I would be begging
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him to,
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Oh my God, Dan, you, you, how many, I mean, you remember better than I do, but how many
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times did Alex in a softball t ball interview where his, his questions were answered for
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him? How many times did he say, I've never lied on purpose? Like eight, eight, eight
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and 40 minutes or something. Glenn Greenwald. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then he said he
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was drunk when he was saying these things about the Sandy hook families twice. I didn't
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realize you were talking about the Greenwell thing. I thought you were talking about something
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else. Sorry. Oh yeah. And then what was the other thing he said? Uh, he decided in advance
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that the election was going to be stolen. He said these really messed up things and
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just like, no one asked him to, no one, like it wasn't, he wasn't being pushed on anything.
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Do you remember when the Liz, do you remember when the defense lawyer asked Becca Becca
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of all people, of all people, do you know what confirmation bias is?
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That was really, yeah. Our next episode, Alex Jones was like, ah, I decided before the election
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happened that it was stolen. Yeah. I mean, this is a woman who, yeah, it was,
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uh, confirmation bias is like the most elementary term for her. I just, I can't even admit that.
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That just, I'm sure that came off to her as like, do you have either, do you have any
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idea of what I do, you know, what my area of study is or, or are you just purposely
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trying to belittle me? You know, it probably was legitimately the latter or both. I mean,
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maybe both. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, that's, you know, well bred men with a lot of connections
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in a city generally treat women really well. That's what I've noticed.
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Yeah. But again, he has to attack people like that because he cannot attack the families.
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So you know, to kind of try to, you know, impeach her or belittle her or make her seem
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like she doesn't have the gravitas that she has, I think is just to, at some levels it's
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strategic because he really cannot lay a finger on Neil and Scarlet. It just would be too
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awful. Yeah. It's weird though, because I think on
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some level the, uh, the attempts at impeaching the psychiatrists and the therapist, I don't
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think it's really easy to see that if you're the jury and not see that as being an attack
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on the, the lived experience of Neil and Scarlet. Because Neil and Scarlet aren't here. I can
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tell you their therapist, that they are lying to you, right?
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It's calling into question the things that they have told the therapist. Right. And that
Unknown Speaker (00:57:05.619)
I think that that, you know, they, because they were not, I think what he was relying
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on is that they will be, that they would be much colder and more clinical than they actually
Unknown Speaker (00:57:17.179)
were. And especially the therapist. I mean, that was, you know, I mean, he was, Mr. Crouch
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was literally starting to cry and he, you know, he was obviously very much feeling their
Unknown Speaker (00:57:31.340)
pain. And so to come after him as if he would have been this sort of like gray clinician,
Unknown Speaker (00:57:38.039)
that's just not who I have seen in my patients, many different desires they have exactly.
Unknown Speaker (00:57:44.780)
If it would have been someone like that, it would have been, you know, that that would
Unknown Speaker (00:57:48.659)
have been a great strategy, but, but because the man himself was so sympathetic and because
Unknown Speaker (00:57:54.460)
he had worked, you know, he was a sort of integral part of the community around Newtown
Unknown Speaker (00:58:01.260)
and he had worked with first responders and he was, he had very much lived the tragedy
Unknown Speaker (00:58:07.219)
and the aftermath. He was not the kind of basic, you know, hired gun expert at all.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:15.579)
That was one of the big things that backfired on the defense lawyer was when he was trying
Unknown Speaker (00:58:20.639)
to almost say like, because you're part of the community, you're so biased in their favor.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:28.699)
You could never be an impartial witness. And instead of like saying, instead of successfully
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getting the jury to be like, ah, this guy's biased.
Unknown Speaker (00:58:38.260)
The jury was like, yeah, right, man. God. Yeah, no. Yeah. I mean, it would be impossible
Unknown Speaker (00:58:48.900)
I think to be, well, not impossible cause we've seen it, but I was going to say it would
Unknown Speaker (00:58:54.699)
be nearly impossible, um, to be in that community when those events happened and not feel an
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absolute empathy for everyone involved. I mean, it's just, that's kind of part of being
Unknown Speaker (00:59:09.260)
a human being. Right. So again, that was, I don't know. I, I'm sort of shaking my head
Unknown Speaker (00:59:19.059)
cause I don't really, I mean, I can understand, I think he prepared for a different person.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:25.739)
Put it that way. I think you're right. But also I would suggest that if some tragedy
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befell Austin, uh, Alex would not, uh, feel the super bad.
Unknown Speaker (00:59:37.420)
I might agree with Dan on this being part of a community. Uh, it does not necessarily
Unknown Speaker (00:59:42.219)
make one. Doesn't necessarily, no, you have to have some innate empathy. Yeah. And I don't
Unknown Speaker (00:59:48.900)
think Alex would be in the position he's in if he weren't lacking in empathy. Yeah, that's
Unknown Speaker (00:59:54.460)
probably true. Well, we should probably, um, you know, wrap this up before too long. Uh,
Unknown Speaker (00:59:59.920)
but I wanted to, uh, just say, I guess, and I'm sure you're on the same page with this
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and I, I, I'm sure you have some thoughts on the matter of, uh, you know, making sure
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that this all stays squarely focused on what this is actually about as opposed to, you
Unknown Speaker (01:00:19.619)
know, especially 100%, especially as we go into tomorrow where in theory, Alex is going
Unknown Speaker (01:00:24.639)
to be there and who knows what could happen? The circus, it's the clown show. We're all
Unknown Speaker (01:00:28.940)
interested in, there is the danger of that. And I know that you're someone who deeply
Unknown Speaker (01:00:34.179)
appreciates what, um, this is really about and what Neil and Scarlet, uh, have gone through
Unknown Speaker (01:00:39.960)
as well as, you know, many other parents and community and family members. Um, and what
Unknown Speaker (01:00:47.619)
are your thoughts about that? And if you have any, anything you want to say on that? I mean,
Unknown Speaker (01:00:54.860)
that is, I know that there was this sort of like, you know, yeah, whoa, you know, kind
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of sense in the, in the courtroom when it became apparent that, you know, quite likely
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Jones will testify. Although I, I still think there is a possibility he won't, but, um,
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but I think the whole thing of, it is super unfortunate when it comes to the families
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because it's going to be super traumatic for them to, to sort of share that day and share
Unknown Speaker (01:01:26.340)
that, that, you know, the, the, the sort of, you know, the same space with him. Um, I'm
Unknown Speaker (01:01:33.260)
sure they'll do everything they can to, to insulate them, you know, from, you know, being
Unknown Speaker (01:01:38.559)
in the same place while he's testifying or what have you. Um, but I couldn't agree with
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you more there, you know, the, the sort of, you know, that this is a proceeding that is,
Unknown Speaker (01:01:50.139)
you know, has lots of aspects. There's like the legal part, the intellectual part of it,
Unknown Speaker (01:01:54.940)
the, the sort of, you know, competition of it and all of that. And I think in, in covering
Unknown Speaker (01:02:00.659)
that and in thinking about it and being part of it and being immersed in it, it's easy
Unknown Speaker (01:02:05.960)
to forget that this is about the parents of a child who was murdered in cold blood, who
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after saving the lives of nine of his classmates and then his parents, you know, as we said
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at the top, you know, having that, that story to cling to and having just this, you know,
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thousands of people tear that narrative for them by saying it didn't happen. You can intellectually
Unknown Speaker (01:02:38.500)
know how nuts that is, but at the same time and, and how, and how ridiculous and how,
Unknown Speaker (01:02:46.500)
and how it should be a non factor. Right. But it is as the psychologist testified today,
Unknown Speaker (01:02:52.780)
it is a factor. You know, no one likes to feel misapprehended even on a minor thing
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and to have somebody take that, that precious, you know, narrative and, and you know, everything
Unknown Speaker (01:03:07.579)
that your child was away from you. I mean, that's really what this is about. And it's
Unknown Speaker (01:03:13.139)
also about the broader thing. And that's that the families are doing this not because they
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even expect that they're going to see any kind of, you know, monetary recompense from
Unknown Speaker (01:03:25.179)
this, but really as an, I know this from talking with them for years for my book, they're trying
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to send a message. They really are trying to say, if this can happen to us, this could
Unknown Speaker (01:03:39.099)
happen to your community. Not the, not the shooting, although God knows that could happen.
Unknown Speaker (01:03:45.019)
But this idea that misinformation and disinformation and the scrambling of, you know, everything
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that we hold sacred when it comes to establishing truth and relying on facts could come for
Unknown Speaker (01:03:57.719)
you in your community. It could happen to your family. And that's really the, the, the
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like blaring red signal that they are trying to send to people. This is a problem. If you
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didn't notice it around us, maybe you noticed it around January 6th, maybe you saw it around
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coronavirus. These are all the same phenomenon and they're really trying to raise awareness
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here. And we should be thanking them for that because of all the people who should be spared
Unknown Speaker (01:04:30.019)
having to, you know, have an additional burden of like standing for something in America,
Unknown Speaker (01:04:35.860)
it should be these grieving families. And here they are, you know, saying this is important
Unknown Speaker (01:04:42.139)
and please, you know, pay attention. I just think we should thank them for that.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:47.820)
Definitely. And the, the, just, you were, you were mentioning like the re-traumatizing
Unknown Speaker (01:04:53.980)
of being in the room when Alex may or may not testify.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:57.219)
Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker (01:04:58.219)
I couldn't even believe the poise of them being there when Alex was just sitting at
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the defense table. That, that to me was even like, wow, I don't know if I'd be able to
Unknown Speaker (01:05:07.739)
do that.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:08.739)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, kind of like, um, you know, being in the presence of someone
Unknown Speaker (01:05:15.539)
who has abused you or, um, you know, or that you've fought with in the past or that, uh,
Unknown Speaker (01:05:24.579)
you know, a person who, who means kind of trauma to you. Right. So, you know, I don't
Unknown Speaker (01:05:29.820)
know about you, but I get kind of shaky and nervous and, you know, it's really scary.
Unknown Speaker (01:05:36.659)
And I, I actually do think, you know, I hearing, um, the two, uh, the, the psychiatrist and,
Unknown Speaker (01:05:45.619)
their therapists say that today, they're scared. I believe that, you know, that is absolutely
Unknown Speaker (01:05:51.539)
true. It's, it's, it's because it's heaped on top of what happened to them, everything
Unknown Speaker (01:05:58.380)
that they, you know, everything was torn out from under them. They lost all sense of control
Unknown Speaker (01:06:03.619)
and now they're, they, they lost their child. They lost, you know, your whole world is thrown
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off its axis. And now, you know, they, they've lost control even over the story of how he
Unknown Speaker (01:06:16.539)
died and, and his heroism and his last moments. I mean, that's understandable.
Unknown Speaker (01:06:22.099)
Yeah. And to even add onto that, you have the added sort of, I don't know the, the unfortunate
Unknown Speaker (01:06:30.820)
thing on top of it, that is that Alex is now trying to control the narrative of their involvement
Unknown Speaker (01:06:37.500)
in this suit. Yep. You know, like, so there's, there's even almost a meta thing that's going
Unknown Speaker (01:06:42.139)
on. Adding to their own pain by suing him is just what, you know, which is, which did
Unknown Speaker (01:06:50.480)
turn out ironically, whenever Mark was like, okay, if you say that they're adding to their
Unknown Speaker (01:06:58.059)
own pain, guess who's at fault for that? It's you. You've just added that to the damages.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:05.619)
We are now including that in the charge. What a funny Mark, what a Mark moment. There's
Unknown Speaker (01:07:12.659)
no more Mark moment than being like, fine man, let's do it.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:16.699)
See if I'm reno then I'm pulling out a steel chair.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:19.219)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm surprised you didn't get a million middle fingers after
Unknown Speaker (01:07:23.099)
that one. Well, it's, it's amazing because you know,
Unknown Speaker (01:07:26.139)
you would think like, okay, um, the lawsuit that's additionally traumatizing actually
Unknown Speaker (01:07:31.780)
not it. What has happened is this has been four years of stonewalling and fighting and
Unknown Speaker (01:07:39.420)
tooth and nail on the part of Alex. So that's, that's the traumatic thing. It's the four
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years of trying to drag this out, trying to use every trick in the book, you know, all
Unknown Speaker (01:07:53.940)
of that. Does he have a right to defend himself? Sure he does. But that's not exactly anymore.
Unknown Speaker (01:07:59.340)
Well, he actually doesn't. Yeah. But that, you know, that it wasn't a fair fight from
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the beginning. So the, to then turn around after four years of extending this pain and
Unknown Speaker (01:08:14.260)
then say, well, you'd all be healed if you didn't sue me is sort of the height of cynicism.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:20.899)
Yeah. And we would be foolish to expect anything better. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if there's
Unknown Speaker (01:08:27.380)
a better way to end it. That's perfect. Well, Liz, thank you so much for joining us again.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:32.500)
It was great to, it was great to see you and I'm sure I'll see you again at the courthouse,
Unknown Speaker (01:08:36.619)
but also great to chat. And thank you very much for, for doing your
Unknown Speaker (01:08:40.659)
best to represent the families instead of just the trial in the articles that are writing
Unknown Speaker (01:08:47.359)
in the times. I will, I will stay in the, in the shit and you get to do it for professional
Unknown Speaker (01:08:52.420)
people who, who actually, uh, can, can matter. So thank you.
Unknown Speaker (01:08:57.739)
Thank you both. I, I, I'm so happy to, to, to, well, to talk with you, but also just,
Unknown Speaker (01:09:05.500)
you know, your knowledge that you have of Alex. Don't be nice to us. We don't handle
Unknown Speaker (01:09:09.579)
it well. We're very nice to you. Thank you for joining us.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:16.539)
This sound is me getting my security blankets. All right. I'm going to stop, but you know
Unknown Speaker (01:09:22.460)
how I feel and how many others do as well. That's very sweet. Thank you very much. All
Unknown Speaker (01:09:27.939)
right. Well, we will talk again soon and Jordan will be back soon. Absolutely. But until then
Unknown Speaker (01:09:33.659)
we have a website, we do have a website. It's knowledge, right? Dot com. And we're also
Unknown Speaker (01:09:36.300)
on Twitter. We are on Twitter. It's at knowledge, judges provided by Jordan. Uh, we're back.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:39.859)
But until then, I'm Neo. I'm Leo. I'm DZX Clark. I'm Daryl Rundis. I hope you, Ooh,
Unknown Speaker (01:09:44.340)
I forgot. I did run this accidentally. Oh no. I'm out of nicknames. Nice. Andy in Kansas.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:49.779)
You're on the air. Thanks for holding.
Unknown Speaker (01:09:50.779)
Well, Alex, I'm a first time caller. I'm a huge fan. I love your work.
