Transcript/713: Chatting With Becca Lewis

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N-N-N-N-N-N-N-Knowledge Fight

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Dan and Jordan, I am sweating.

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Knowledgefight.com, it's time to pray.

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I have great respect for knowledgefight, knowledgefight.

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I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys, saying we are the bad guys.

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I love your work.

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Knowledgefight.

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N-N-N-N-Knowledgefight.com, I love you.

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Hey everybody, welcome back to Knowledgefight, I'm Dan.

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I'm Jordan.

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We're a couple dudes, like to sit around, worship at the altar of Selene, back in its

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company, very close to the altar.

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Right there.

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And talk a little bit about Alex Jones.

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Oh, indeed we are, Dan.

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Jordan.

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Dan.

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Jordan.

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Quick question for you, buddy.

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What's up?

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What's your bright spot today?

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My bright spot is, you know, we're back from our trip to Austin, and there are some things

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that you expect to be really exciting about coming back, like being in my own space, of

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course Selene being around.

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But then there's other things that are kind of a surprise, and I think one of the biggest

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is my back scratcher.

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Oh yeah?

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Yeah.

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I didn't have it with me on the trip, and I didn't realize how much I use it.

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Like, my back was itching almost constantly through the trip, I was rubbing on doorways

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like a bear, and coming back I was like, yeah, I'm gonna get a travel back scratcher, I'm

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gonna get like three or four of them, it's gonna be back scratcher city.

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Maybe you just need some back lotion, you know?

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Like get some jurgens, really, you got to, I mean, maybe you just have dry skin.

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Maybe, I don't know.

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I'm sorry, I'm sorry, this wasn't meant to be aggressive.

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I don't know, can you have dry skin and also be quite sweaty?

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Yes, you can, Dan.

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Okay, that's paradoxical.

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What's your bright spot?

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My bright spot, very similarly, is a small thing from home that I didn't expect to be

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such a delight.

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I took a bath, and I had my bath salts in there, I've turned into that guy, for sure.

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You turned into me?

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Absolutely.

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Okay.

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Yep, it took years to get there, but eventually your bath salts perpetrated my brain, and

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now, oh, it was so good.

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There were tubs in our hotel rooms.

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Yeah, there were.

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How good was our hotel room?

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Not good.

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I did take a bath, I think I might have taken two baths in that time.

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Very deep tub, but slender.

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Mine was not deep.

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Okay.

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That's weird.

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Maybe your bathtub at home is just super deep.

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I think that's what it really is.

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You have like a jacuzzi bathtub in your home.

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It does have jets.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's a bright spot.

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Yeah, that is a bright spot.

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So, Jordan, today we have an episode that we're going to be doing that's very exciting.

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It is.

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Over the course of the time in Austin, when we were there for the trial.

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That's where we were.

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A certain figure emerged from the trial, who our audience has taken to in a very serious

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way.

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Oh, yeah.

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She's somebody who I have paid attention to and admired a bit for her work over the years,

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and we're excited to talk to Becca Lewis.

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Thank you for joining us.

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Hello.

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Hello.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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I've been admiring both of your work for many years now, too.

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That is very kind and awesome.

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It's great that we can finally sit down and have a chat.

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But first, I have to ask you, what is your bright spot?

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My bright spot is really similar to both of yours, actually.

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I am also back home, which is mixed by the comforts of home are really nice to come back

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to, and that includes my own alter to my cat, Annie, who is a 17-year-old delightful grumpy

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old lady.

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Yeah.

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Love it.

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Love it.

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I love a grumpy pet.

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Oh, the best.

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She's great.

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Maybe grumpy is the wrong word.

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She's very, very demanding of attention.

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She will let you know that you need to be petting her right now.

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Women, am I right?

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Classic.

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Yeah.

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Classic.

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Yeah.

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I love an old pet, too, just doesn't have that vibrancy.

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Not going to try and outrun you, just sort of, I know what's up.

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Oh, when we...

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I've lived a bit.

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When we were at a deep close friend of the show who helped our audio issues, making him

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my hero.

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Yeah.

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When we were at his place, he had a very old, black lab, golden retriever.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Golden retriever.

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And then...

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Great Dane.

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Great Dane.

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So it was huge.

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It was the biggest dog.

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It was too big.

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It was so old.

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And then whenever she came over, I gave her the right ear scratches, boom, right on the

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floor, giving me some belly time.

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It was amazing.

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That's the thing.

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Old animals are the best.

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I only adopted my cat when she was 14, and they're just chill, they just sit there and

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hang out.

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And God bless her for it.

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Yes.

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Indeed.

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So Becca, you were a part of the trial for the plaintiff's expert witness, and would

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you like to explain a little bit about what the subject matter you were brought in to

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talk about was?

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Yeah.

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Sounds good.

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So I research...

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Communications is the field that I'm in, and specifically I look at right wing and far

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right social movements, and also just more broadly, disinformation efforts across the

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political spectrum, and how they kind of disseminate throughout the internet.

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So that was really the role they brought me on to talk about.

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So other witnesses talked about the...

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Like Fred Zip, the journalism expert, talked about the actual protocols of genuine journalism,

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and how Infowars wasn't following any of those.

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Of course, the forensic psychologist talked about the mental anguish that the parents,

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Neil and Scarlett, experienced, and my role was to talk about the role of Alex Jones in

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the...

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Just how widespread this conspiracy theory has become.

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A topic which I don't think either of you may be very familiar with.

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Yeah.

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I actually found a lot of your testimony pretty interesting, because it is a section of understanding

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his reach, in particular his reach in the past, is something that we haven't delved

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too deeply into.

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We don't even understand our own reach, let alone we're still like, I swear, I think there's

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just 15 people listening, honestly.

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I was trying to make a bad joke, because I feel like you two are the most qualified people

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to talk about this ever, but I'm glad to hear it was interesting.

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Oh, really?

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No, we're both on your team.

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We can talk ideas about his coverage of things, but in terms of the stuff that's around him,

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that picture is something that I don't know...

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I mean, I certainly have a sense of it just sort of anecdotally from being around conspiracy

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circles at the time, but I...

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I mean, in a way, we know where bullshit is and you know where it goes.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Oh, I like that way of phrasing it.

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Yeah, and I think it's true actually that when you work in this space, you quickly come

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to realize you're like, I am going to bite off one very, very small piece of this puzzle,

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because it is just so massive.

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There's so much to delve into, and so you really do have to rely on the work of other

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people, and it's incredibly important, I think, to chat with and make sure you're gleaning

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expertise from other people around, because you have to be the expert in your one spot

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and then make sure you're looking at what everyone else is doing, too.

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Yeah, definitely.

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I think that's something that's really important, is that people niche and specialize a bit,

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and then networking can be important.

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And I think one of the failings of our show, I think, really, is that there was none of

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that really early on, because I think I was scared, because I reached out to a couple

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of people who I shan't name early on in the time doing this podcast, and they were so

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resistant to talk, and understandably so.

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We are not academics.

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We don't have any real background, and here we are saying...

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I didn't graduate.

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It's like, we study Alex Jones.

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It's obviously a concern that like, oh, these are crazy people, and I think that I got gun

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shy about that and didn't really network nearly as much as I could have.

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Actually, your expertise...

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Oh, no, keep going.

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No, I was just going to say, the cool thing for me is that during the trial, it's been

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like your podcast has been the forum where you've been able to bring a ton of people

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together, right?

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You've heard from the lawyers, from Elizabeth Williamson, who's incredible.

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If that wasn't the case initially, it certainly is the case now that you're bringing everyone

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together in a really cool way, I think.

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Except for those people who I shan't name.

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And all of the people that I have spoken to are not brought together, I'll tell you that

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right now.

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And all the people who seem to refuse to block you.

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Yes, exactly.

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So it's your sense, though, getting back to this idea, that Alex really was the same.

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The central galvanizing force behind a lot of the Sandy Hook conspiracy theorizing.

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That was something that I took away from what you were saying.

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Yeah, that's exactly right.

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That's what's so fascinating to me, as you can see, there are network studies that get

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done about the dynamics of these things.

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You see the giant nodes that form in terms of the spread of right-wing ideas and information.

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And it's like the big institutional hubs throughout the 2010s were Fox News and Breitbart, particularly

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through 2017, 2018.

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But when you look at individuals, it's Alex Jones.

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There's no one, really the only person with comparable reach to him in this space is Joe

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Rogan.

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And obviously Joe Rogan is a bit more of a complicated person in the way that he...

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And back then, he probably had much less of a reach.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So when you go back and you look at what Alex's reach was in 2012, it was much smaller, but

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it was still huge for the time.

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In 2011, he already had half a million subscribers and at that point, there was no one with millions

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of subscribers on YouTube.

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And by the time of Sandy Hook, he already had 100 million views on his page.

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It was really, really substantial.

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Yeah.

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I'm trying to think of other people who would be in that conversation and like Bill Cooper

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was dead, so he couldn't really be a widespread individual voice coast to coast, kind of,

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but not really.

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It's not the same thing.

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Right.

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There were a lot of angel fire websites devoted to Dragon Ball Z that were all about disinformation,

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if I recall correctly.

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But mostly about how Goku was a limited hanger.

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It was a complicated pace at the time.

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Yeah, I feel like Alex Jones was really this hinge point where it's like you're saying,

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he was there in the 90s, he was doing the public access television, he was doing the

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radio thing, but then he also was incredibly prescient in a lot of ways and was able to

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do the online influencer thing pretty early on.

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He was on the crest of that wave.

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You know, I have a quick question to ask you.

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One of the funniest parts about your testimony, which of course is the only thing I pay attention

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to.

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The funniest stuff?

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The funniest stuff.

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Yeah.

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It shows.

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Yeah.

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Your Twitter is just full of, hey, that was a good one.

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Is the juxtaposition of how Alex describes all of his guests as like the most qualified,

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the top of their field, the single greatest person.

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Everybody knows this person.

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And Mark could not have tried to twist the knife more at the beginning than when he was

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like, where did you graduate from?

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Oh, that's cool.

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Let me ask you a question.

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Did you graduate from somewhere even more important?

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Was that a prestigious college?

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Yes.

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So genuinely the most uncomfortable I was on the stand.

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It had to have been, right?

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Yeah.

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He warned me.

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He was like, early on, I'm going to make you brag a little bit.

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You're going to be uncomfortable with it.

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And I was uncomfortable with it.

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But then of course, it's like, you look back at Mark and he knows what he's doing.

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And so I trusted I was in good hands, but it was really funny.

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How many degrees do you have?

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Just for, I don't want you to name where they're from because I know that would be embarrassing.

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And you're in bad hands.

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Yeah, exactly.

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If you said one of the institutions, I'd be like, yeah, I got into there.

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And then I was like, they suck.

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You know, like, yeah.

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Well, that's, I mean, that's the thing also is that plenty of prestigious institutions

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have lots of idiots that go there.

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Right.

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Harvard has turned out its share of people I've paid attention to, which is not good.

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But listen, in my case, clearly it only turns out expert geniuses.

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When I went to, I dropped out of high school and after that I was applying for colleges

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and I was guaranteed basically that I could get into the University of Missouri because

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I lived in Columbia and it was an easy, it was a dunk, but the only other college I applied

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to was Harvard.

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All right.

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I'll go with the backup school of Missouri, I guess, I guess.

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My dad went to Harvard and so I was like, Hey, I'm a legacy.

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This will make up for me dropping out, did not work out, did not get in and went to Missouri.

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Amazing.

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I regret nothing.

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So also another thing that it was fun, I believe it was you who, did the jury ask you to swear

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you weren't a lizard or did that question not make it through?

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Well, yes, it was the jury that asked me to swear under oath that I was not a lizard person.

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The question did not make it through, so I didn't get to answer that question.

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Well, I think we need an answer.

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Yeah.

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I mean, you know, now is your time to really reveal yourself to the world, I guess.

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Well, listen, I'll say two things.

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First, I'll say that I am not a lizard person, but second of all, I'll say that this podcast

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is not me under oath.

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Yeah, that's a good point.

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We've tried to do that.

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I mean, if you think Selene doesn't hold you accountable for what you have to say, I would

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be shocked.

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Oh no, you got me.

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I can't lie to a cat.

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In her form of holding people in contempt involves clause.

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It's terrible.

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There are forms of accountability greater than that of the law.

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I'm thinking about this picture of the media landscape back then in like 2012.

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And even the thing that I brought up, I realize, like Coast to Coast AM is probably one of

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the biggest things other than Alex that touches on some of these issues.

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But that even seems silly to say because Alex was constantly on Coast to Coast using that

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platform to dissent.

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And even like a couple of times they had Steve Pachannik on Coast to Coast.

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It's nuts.

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Hey, if you need a big swing, you call Stevie Peace.

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Right.

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But you can't think that that wasn't done through Alex.

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Right.

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Oh no, of course.

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I don't know if there are bookers reaching out.

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Like he was like, wait, we got to get the guy who murdered all the Murrow in here.

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Well, that's the thing I feel like, I mean, yeah, a couple of other things about the internet

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at that point.

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And I feel like, Dan, you brought this up in a recent episode about like Facebook being

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an entirely different place back then too.

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The other thing you find when you go back and start rooting around and like archive.org

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and these other ways you try to go back and look at what the internet was like then is

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it was much less like people didn't have verified accounts at that point.

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So you had Alex Jones, but then you also had like dozens and dozens of, if you look at

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what the other recommended accounts were at the time, it's all of these Alex Jones rip

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off accounts.

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And so the posting and reposting and reposting is like something that is hard for us to even

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conceptualize now in this obviously there's still posting and reposting, but it was a

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very different version of that back then.

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Yeah, that's right.

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I mean, I sort of buried that memory, but there were, I know a couple of times a friend

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of mine was like, became friends with a celebrity on Facebook and it was like, that's not a

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real account.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Some people, yeah.

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It is like thinking of it as the wild west, but when you think of the wild west, you think

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of the distant past, not like a few years ago.

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You're not like, Oh, thank God the sheriffs have finally showed up.

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You know, it's true.

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Right, right.

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No, it's true.

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Like we, we still think of social media as a cesspool and obviously it is, but the amount

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that has changed between then and now is pretty remarkable.

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And then to your point about the kind of, you know, Alex Jones going on these other

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shows, I mean, this was something that I didn't really have time to get into in, you know,

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on the stand, but that's, that's a lot of what I look at, right, is how you get these

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different creators who kind of amplify each other and each other's ideas and create this

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like self reinforcing feedback loop, right?

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It's like someone will reference Alex Jones as like the authority and be like, well, that's

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why I can spread this idea.

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And then Alex Jones will point back to, you know, Wolfgang Helbig or whoever and be like,

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Oh yeah, he has his credentials.

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And so then you start to get this, these networks of people who are all going on each other's

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shows, who are all kind of amplifying each other's ideas and reinforcing them and seem

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like they're kind of citing genuine people because they have this whole network of people

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that are their quote unquote experts.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's like, it's like almost circular credibility, but it's a completely different shape.

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It's like, it's, it's a million sided shape of self feeding credibility.

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That's kind of what I was going to ask is, could you give us kind of like a visualization

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of how that disseminates?

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Like what I kind of see in my head is almost these, these giant circles that eventually

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touch.

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Well, actually I can, let me, let me step in here because actually I wanted to bring

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this up.

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One of the first things that brought you into my sphere of awareness was the alternative

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influence network report that I believe it was 2017, 2018.

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2018 and there is a visualization in there with a bunch of lines between, Oh, surprise.

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I haven't read the answer to my question.

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This exists as a visualization of things in 2018.

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Right.

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Right.

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Right.

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Right.

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Um, and so I would imagine that would be, you know, the way we, you'd look at it now,

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but what's so fascinating is how different that landscape, even just a couple years later.

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I mean, do you feel like there's differences that you have noticed specifically?

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Oh, 100%.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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100%.

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Um, I feel like, well, first of all, the, the thing about that, uh, that network that

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I made was, um, it was specifically looking at kind of like, uh, it started with Dave

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Rubin as the, the seed account and that did like what we call snow all sampling from there.

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Cause the idea was to say like the most mainstream quote unquote, mainstream person that I could

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think of who had influence and a lot of people on his show, um, and then go from there and

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see where it spun out.

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And the interesting thing is there's a ton of people from Alex Jones's world on that

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network web, right?

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That like PJW is on there and a bunch of people, but at a certain point I realized I was going

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to, um, start, uh, including Alex Jones in this.

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But the way I bounded it ended up having to leave him out because he was at the center

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of his own alternative influence.

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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Yeah.

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That's fascinating.

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That's what I was thinking is that like if you added him, then it would sprawl like a

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completely wild direction, even though there's a ton of overlap in terms of people he's connected

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with on here.

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Like, well, I guess at the time, probably not Nick Fuentes, but he had Faith Goldie

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on his show, certainly Joe Rogan, Candace Owens, Gavin Cernovich.

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Um, but yeah, that's, that's, that is interesting that he would, he would be his own, uh, the,

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the visualization of it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yarn pattern.

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Every, everyone else gets like circles of influence and where they are and Alex gets

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an amorphous blob of cancerous cells somewhere over there that just infects some stuff everywhere.

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So yeah, I was like, if I, if I include Alex Jones, I need to do an entire other report

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on Alex Jones.

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And that hasn't happened.

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But um, that's the first thing, but yeah, it's changed a lot since then.

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First of all, cause YouTube has actually kicked a lot of these people off.

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Oh, that's true.

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Yeah.

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They're not in the algorithm as much.

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Exactly.

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So, you know, to, to YouTube's credit, um, you know, like I think, and actually Alex

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Jones, his lawyer asked me about Stefan Molyneux, which was, um, an odd choice, I would say.

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Right?

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Of all people.

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What?

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You could choose a hundred different people that aren't avowed white nationalists.

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The guy who literally said, I am a white nationalist now.

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Based on empiricism.

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I wish I had made that even clearer to the jury that like, this is a man who has no qualms

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about describing himself this way.

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You know?

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Right.

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And he became a white nationalist because people didn't yell at him in Poland.

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For being a white nationalist.

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They were like, Oh, well, they're not mean to me about it.

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So I can finally just say it.

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Great.

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Exactly.

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And like, just the amount of, and first of all, like he's someone I legit have so many

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receipts on like at the ready.

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And then like also it's just someone who is, it was a bad choice of someone to bring up,

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but he is such a, he was such a powerful radicalization point, right?

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Because he was someone that maintained enough quote unquote credibility for a while that

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he would get invited on like Jordan Peterson show, Rogan's show, Dave Rubin, these people

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that have kind of, you know, mainstream again, quote unquote credibility.

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But then he would, you know, go on these other kind of more openly extremist shows and kind

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of speak his, his mind much more openly.

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And he, he was just like known to be Robert Evans wrote about this too.

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And a lot of his you know, where people got red pilled, you know, people talked about,

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I believe that he was one of the ones mentioned by name.

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Although it's been a while since I've read that, so don't quote me on that.

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But yeah, so, so the fact that he got kicked off, I think was a huge deal.

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The fact that like Red Ice and some of these other kind of openly white supremacist channels

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got kicked off was a big deal.

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So it really has changed.

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But then you know what, actually, I want to, I wanted to touch on Red Ice really quick

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because they've come up a couple of times on our show in the past, but I, you know,

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looking at this, this 2018 report, Henrik and Lana are like way off in the side of this,

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this visualization of the network.

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But I was thinking about this as I was looking at it.

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That's right.

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Real quick.

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I just want to interrupt.

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So because we can't see you on the screen, Becca, you just need to know that Dan instantly

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brought up your article on his computer the moment that I brought up how stupid I am.

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No, I refreshed myself on it in anticipation of speaking.

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If you were to do an Alex visualization or a network, they would be much closer and much

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more connected.

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They are connected to so many people in Alex's world.

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Yeah.

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It's super interesting.

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That's right.

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And in my prep for the, for the trial, I kept encountering them because it was, you know,

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that was a Wolfgang who went on there.

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A couple of several of these stones been on there.

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Oh my God.

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It's crazy.

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A man with Nixon on his back going on a white nationalist show wild.

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I would say this is a conservative estimate, 10 to 15 of Alex's crew or like roster of,

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of guests have appeared on red ice.

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Yeah.

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It's a lot.

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This is the thing.

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And obviously it's not, it's not as germane to the case.

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So I, I get why it hasn't come up, but it just, the amount of antisemitism and white

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supremacy that Alex Jones ends up baking into his conspiracy theories.

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It's like it, the way that you come to see it is through the people that he's working

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with because he's good at couching them, but then the people that he amplifies, if you

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go onto their shows, they're not couching it in any way.

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Right.

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He's crazy laundering.

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You know?

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I mean, just case, case in point, he had Owen Benjamin hosting the fourth hour for a while.

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Oh my God.

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Yeah.

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Before he had gone full, I'm a Nazi, but after everyone had stopped talking to him and he

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was just hanging out drinking in his backyard.

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Right.

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So it was in that middle space, Alex, like, I mean, I don't know if you could say that's

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hired him, but he was hosting the fourth hour once a week.

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Right.

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For a bit.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Now there's still like Fuentes still has a channel on, on band.video and he posts some

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bad stuff.

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Can I ask you, Becca, do you feel like in your research, you've seen a lot of these

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people become more extreme or just stop laundering it so much?

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Do you know what I mean?

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Like, are they actually increasing the extremity of their language or are they just being like,

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fine, I can just say it now?

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Yeah.

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I think it's a combination of stuff.

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I mean, on the one, first of all, you do have this interesting dynamic where, understandably,

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I think there's been a lot of, um, anxiety around YouTubers, radicalizing YouTube viewers,

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which I, you know, that's part of what I've written about, but then you also have this

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other feedback loop because viewers now can leave comments and like on live streams can,

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you know, comment in real time and all these things.

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You actually have audiences demanding more extremist content from creators and so you

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get this weird feedback loop where it's like creators end up, um, you know, kind of responding

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to the wishes of their audience.

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Like I would say that Tim Pool is a really classic case of this where like, I've, I've

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done the Alex, you know, I've done the knowledge fight treatment on Tim Pool where like I've

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seen all of his content up through like, you know, a certain amount of time.

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Um, and it's so interesting to watch him inch bit by bit into the positions that he has

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now in part by seeing how, when he delved into that stuff, that's where his audience

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really responded to it.

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Um, and I think maybe along the way he kind of convinced himself of some of these ideas.

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You know, there's always the question of, of, you know, how much you become the mask

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you wear kind of thing.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Exactly.

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But, um, so there's, there's that dynamic and then there's also the fact that like the,

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the Republican party itself and mainstream conservatism has been going further and further

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to the right.

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So the line between recording this on, I believe the day or the day after Victor Orban spoke

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the day after the fascist dictator is like, Hey Republicans, we all love each other, right?

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You might have a point.

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You might have a point.

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Weirdly what happened in the YouTube space that I, a lot of these spaces as I think the

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people that were strategic enough to straddle the line and never openly say, you know, that

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they're a white nationalist or white supremacist, but who still use that rhetoric, they're still

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thriving and their rhetoric is getting more and more extreme, even as you know, like one

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of my biggest pet peeves is when people talk about, um, uh, figures as being fringe, like

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white supremacist being fringe.

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It's like, no, they are sitting there in some of the most powerful media positions.

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I mean, look at Tucker Carlson.

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Like he's an incredibly powerful media figure.

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And if you just take, I've done this in certain presentations where I just take a quote of

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his about great replacement theory, a quote of, um, the Christ church Christ church shooter,

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a quote of Charlie Kirk, um, and a quote of, uh, Jason Kessler, the organizer of unite

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the right.

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And there are four quotes about great replacement theory are indistinguishable if you don't

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have the names attached.

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And so, you know, of course, like Alex Jones, his lawyer was asking me about confirmation

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bias and stuff.

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And to me, the interesting thing is if you take away that certain biases that we have

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and you just look at the data, that's the most damning thing possible.

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Yeah.

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That's, that's something that I've, I've long thought.

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And that is that like everybody says, like Alex has taken out of context and stuff like

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this, but like in context, all of this stuff that we're talking about ends up worse.

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Right?

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Yes, totally.

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The other thing too, that I thought of when you're saying like you take these things,

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these statements are the same with the names removed.

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Like one of the most, uh, difficult episodes that we did was about the day of, uh, Anders

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Breivik's attack.

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Yeah.

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And I ended up pulling over his manifesto and one of the things that really stuck out

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to me was the, if you were to isolate just the words of this, it would sound very familiar

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to Infowars listeners and it was just, that was kind of a revelatory moment for me of

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like, how gross and, and yeah, you're saying like it's not fringe.

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It is.

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It's the stuff that's in Anders Breivik's manifesto is broadcast on some places and

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yeah, it is.

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It's terrifying.

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Exactly.

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I really like, there's a really good, um, uh, scholar of extremism who he defines extremism

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as, um, an in-group that defines their success only by kind of, um, punishing an out-group.

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Oh, you mean like owning the libs?

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Yeah, exactly.

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But the thing that I love about this definition is that he says it's a, it's a misunderstanding

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to say that extremism is defined by being outside of the mainstream.

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Because if you think of some of the most important extremist regimes in history, they were the

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mainstream, right?

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Nazism, Nazi Germany was the mainstream during World War II and the Holocaust, right?

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Um, in US slavery, that was the mainstream system and that is an extremist system.

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Um, and so I think that we still hang on to these myths that like these things somehow

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stand outside of the mainstream and, and no, uh, that's also why I like that the, one of

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the jury members asked me the question of like, is Alex Jones the mainstream media?

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Which I thought was a great question.

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It really was.

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Yeah.

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Cause it puts the light on that, right?

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And you, you guys like call, call him on this all the time that it's like, when it's advantageous

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to him, he says, oh, we're just, we're just an upstart little, you know, we're the underdog.

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Mom and pop information store.

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Yeah.

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No, that was a really interesting part of your testimony, especially when the question

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came from the jury, because that was almost the identical question Bill asked Owen in

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his deposition.

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To define the mainstream media.

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You say you're against the mainstream media, define it and then see if you don't fit all

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of those definitions.

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Totally.

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And he sure did.

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Owen was basically walked into, uh, can conceding that himself and most of the people he thinks

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are fringe are actually mainstream according to his own definition.

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Right.

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Exactly.

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And Alex writes about that too.

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When it's advantageous for him, then they're the biggest, most powerful people on the air,

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you know?

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Of course.

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Yeah.

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Like a million times the traffic of CNN, but also CNN is somehow

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The mainstream, everybody watches CNN.

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We have more viewers and listeners and everything, but yeah,

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I was just gonna say that Dan, you had a great line on a, on a recent podcast that stuck

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with me and I'm going to use, which is that they, uh, Alex Jones or one of these folks

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like want, want their cake and eat it too.

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And to have a slice of pie that to me, just like in every respect, that's, that's defines

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Alex Jones.

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Right.

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And he'll, he'll answer completely opposite things and somehow try to hold them both in

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his, in his mind and in his rhetoric in a way that lets him squirm out of anything.

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Yeah.

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And also, uh, throws a hat on it.

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Yeah.

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Well, thank you.

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I appreciate that.

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Turn of phrase came out of my righteous indignation, uh, over, uh, the, I really tapped into something

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full of anger and, uh, powerful.

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It was strong because of Glenn Greenwald, I don't see why that would be, I will say

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it's been a long time since I sat down, uh, in preparation for an episode and like wrote

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a speech.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And a good one too.

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I don't know if you, have you had a chance to see Alex's documentary by chance?

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I have not yet.

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I listened to your podcast episode about it, but I haven't watched it yet.

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And I think I need to be like in the right heads to even tackle it.

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Good luck.

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Yeah.

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It'll probably make you pretty angry.

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What fucking head space is that?

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I think I've poisoned the jury here though on it.

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Because now if you watch it, you'll be, you'll be, you can't get the confirmation bias out.

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I know.

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I know.

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Speaking of that, speaking of that, how did it feel to be cross examined by the defense's

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lawyer?

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The moment he asked you after, well, one, he said two things that made me want to fight

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him.

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Uh, before he even, before he even started asking you questions, he was trying to imply

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that you were unqualified, despite the fact that we heard a list of qualifications that

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can only be described as the most overqualified human being ever to sit in that chair.

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And then, and then later when he asked you what confirmation, if you knew what confirmation

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bias was, I, I was ready to jump over the, over the walls and just be like, it was a

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wild experience.

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I mean, um, uh, I'd be lying if instead of it wasn't nerve wracking and this was my first

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time like, you know, testifying and it was like, you know, you did great for your first

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time.

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Part of me, part of me wishes I had maybe been able to do like a lower profile case

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first way to start at the bottom, do a couple of open mics of testifying.

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I got to get my type five down first, but no, um, uh, that, you know, the, the confirmation

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bias thing, that one didn't really faze me because, you know, particularly actually with

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this 2018 report that I released, that one caused like such a stir among the YouTubers

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that I was writing about.

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And they did not take it well and they, they hurled that exact line of reasoning like at

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me.

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And so to, to me, that wasn't a new thing that I've heard.

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And of course, you know, it's not only directed at me, like you constantly hear that line

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being read, you know, about any, any piece it's the, the irony of it is, is too much

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because of course they're using that line as a defense to not have to interrogate their

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own biases.

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Right.

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Yeah, of course.

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They might as well literally say, I'm rubber in your glue.

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Like it is that childish.

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The neener neener.

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Yeah, it is.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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So that, that one didn't save me so much, although, yeah, I, I, um, it's a little insulting

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though.

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Yeah, of course.

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Of course.

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I mean, my main thing throughout this whole thing is I'm a teacher.

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And so like talking to the jury, to me, I could just kind of be in teacher mode.

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And that to me is really like natural and fulfilling.

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But as though as an academic, I'm not used to having these interactions that are by their

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very structure adversarial, I would find myself, he would ask me questions and I, my immediate

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response is like, Oh, I just need to inform him.

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And then I was like, wait, that's not, if I get the chance, I can really explain to

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this guy.

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How things work.

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Not really understanding that he doesn't give a fuck at all.

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I have to check myself a couple of times and be like, wait, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

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this is not a teaching opportunity.

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Exactly.

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You're not going to black pill the lawyer.

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So it is different in that context to be like, okay, what are the, and also because I, as

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an academic, you know, you get me rambling about these things and I can talk for hours

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and it's like, no, I have to limit myself to what is applicable for this specific case.

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You know, what, that was the other thing to try to gauge, like, cause he started really

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getting into the weeds on statistical stuff.

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And so I was trying to gauge like, okay, how much do I prove that what he's asking is like

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absolute nonsense while also, yeah.

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They were getting towards like with his questions, he was getting towards basically like prove

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to me, statistics exist, you know, like it, it was leaning towards like the bickering

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about sample sizes and what have you is like, yeah, is, is this a credible, uh, outlet?

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I mean, he literally asked you, he was like, Hey, uh, this statistic, these are based on

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phone interviews.

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You don't even know if those people are real.

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Do you?

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And you're like, I don't even know how to engage with a person who's like, if you call

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somebody on the phone, it doesn't count as another human being.

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Right.

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Right.

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Right.

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Right.

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Right.

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And also, yeah, it was just, so some of those were easier to respond to.

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Like when you start getting into why, like what is statistical significance?

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That was the part where I just decided not even to engage with it cause there's no way

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I'm going to be able to respond to that in like 30 seconds in a way that's satisfying

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to jury members, you know?

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And so, but that's frustrating because to actually answer the questions he was asking

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me, like I couldn't really answer them without going into some of those details.

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We'd like to introduce exhibit 64 and that is a six hour lecture by Becca Lewis on how

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to deal with fucking statistics and media literacy.

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You have to watch it all or else it's out of context.

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Otherwise it's out of context.

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Exactly.

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And every 30 seconds we all jump in and say unresponsive.

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Non-responsive.

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I asked a bad question.

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Yeah.

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So I wanted to loop back to this, the alternative influence network thing because, you know,

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the report that you did in 2018 or, you know, like you said, a lot of blowback from people

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included in it and you're like, I'm not bad.

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It was the Mayak report of lying.

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But then you look at a lot of these people who are on here and we see where they've gone

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since and I think their arguments are a little bit flawed, but I wanted to get your sense

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because you know, you're somebody who still watches a lot of this stuff and you still

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are studying this space and maybe outside of YouTube.

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But who do you think is like the big nodes now?

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Like who would you think are on radars or should be more on radars?

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And secondarily, do you think that the people who are on here, did anybody ascend or I'm

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not sure.

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The phrasing of that question isn't great, but I think you maybe get what I'm asking.

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I totally get it.

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Yeah.

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Cause there's certain nodes on there.

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Like Andy Worsky was really big for like three months in 2017 and so he takes up a big spot

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on there and he's not like relevant at all anymore.

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But you know what's interesting to me is first of all, how much of this network has continued

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to overlap more with kind of cable news networks.

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Right.

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So like at this point, I don't know how I could talk about these figures without talking

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about Tucker Carlson as well.

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Sure.

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Because just be like Kellyanne Conway is a regular guest on MSNBC now.

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Yeah.

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We're right.

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Right, right, right.

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You know, Tucker Carlson did entire segments kind of like defending and hosting Martin

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Selner and his wife who were people that the Christchurch shooter ended up visiting before

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his massacre.

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Great.

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Yeah.

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Great.

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And so I don't know how I could do that without talking about him.

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Oh, he also, whatever.

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He fully endorsed and amplified Lauren Southern's kind of white supremacist conspiracy theory

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about farmers in South Africa.

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But she's sorry now.

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She's brunette and therefore reformed.

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Yeah.

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She went away for a little while and said she was retired and then she came back and

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now she's sorry.

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Yeah.

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And as we all know, an insincere apology will be reported as a 100% sincere apology.

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Totally.

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Everybody will believe it.

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Yeah.

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She's sorry, but she's also still suspicious about immigration.

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Okay.

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Right, right, right.

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But the other thing is that I really think that what happened is you kind of had YouTube

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taking action against a bunch of people.

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You also had some people just kind of shooting themselves in the foot and declining in popularity.

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But then there was a vacuum and I do think it was people like Glenn Greenwald and Matt

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Taibbi who stepped into it.

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And so it's a little bit less of a-

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They saw a job opening.

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Yeah.

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You know?

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Precisely.

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Precisely.

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I think it was a strategic...

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I mean, obviously I don't know what their mindset was, but whatever they were doing

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was clearly strategic because it worked in terms of bringing them fame and it felt like

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a very Dave Rubin-esque move, right?

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Why I left the left type of thing.

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And that's what Dave Rubin was doing in 2015, 2016.

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And now here they are doing it in more recent years.

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So it's a little bit less YouTube centric, but it's still about this loose network of

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influential people who I think are able to help each other out with networking, but also

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maintain some type of plausible deniability because they're like...

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The lines like Glenn Greenwald was using about interviewing Alex were precisely the lines

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that Dave Rubin used about interviewing people like Stefan Molyneux five years ago.

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You know?

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Yeah.

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And the lines that Greenwald has about the...

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It's identical essentially to Rubin too with the like, I'm not on the right, but the left

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has gone too far kind of mentality and that's exactly what feeds into right-wing audiences

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and further right-wing audiences to sort of anesthetize them to the idea that they're

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further to the right than they think they are.

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Exactly.

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Yes.

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Absolutely.

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And then I think the other big figure who has been so incredibly successful, but somehow

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has managed to stay so under the mainstream radar is Tim Pool.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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He's got billboards outside of Midway.

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Like it's nuts.

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And Times Square from what I saw on Twitter.

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I don't know if those were photoshopped, but I assume...

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Yeah.

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I've seen the ones outside of Midway driving back just going like, what in God's name is

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that?

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I didn't believe it at first.

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Further evidence that that is not a real airport.

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That's true.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It's a bus station.

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Yeah.

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Pool is somebody who I've wanted to cover maybe and people have asked us to, but he

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seems like somebody who is so into attention that he would try to start a fight with me

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and I just don't want to do it.

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Yeah.

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It seems like it's more trouble than it's worth and other people are somewhat paying

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attention to him.

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Yeah.

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You see some critical coverage.

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Whereas when we started this podcast, I don't think there was really anything that was pointed

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in the right direction with Alex.

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I always liked those, why I left the Democratic party posts or why I left the left for the

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right.

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They never say millions of dollars.

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It's so weird how they suddenly get millions of dollars and they say it's a principled

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position.

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It's so crazy.

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That's one of Alex's pieces of his own mythology that I kind of believe.

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I was offered all of this stuff and I turned it down.

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I don't know if he turned it down or not, but like jump offers at Fox and the idea that

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you'll have a book that you put out and will automatically make it a best seller just by

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buying tons of them.

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And you won't have to write it.

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Those kinds of things are very enticing for people, I think.

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Totally, totally.

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And to me, it's just so depressing and cynical and in a weird way, even more depressing than

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the true believers, because with a true believer, you can work on de-radicalization and I mean,

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not to be too flippant about it, but it's like the big Lebowski line, right?

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Like say what you will about national socialism, at least as an ethos.

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The nihilism behind just doing this stuff for profit and thinking you're above the politics

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of it is just so disgusting.

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And I think with the true believers, those are the ones where I still hold out hope that

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you can somehow, there are people that work on de-radicalization with them, but what do

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you do with someone that's just purely in it for the money?

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It's hopeless.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I really do-

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Until the money runs out, I guess.

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I really do liken it to religious people in so far as like, I respect people who believe

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it, who really believe all of it and try to do the stuff.

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Even if I think it's absurd, at the very least I can see them processing this information,

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believing it and acting upon it.

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And it's the people who are manipulating them for, let's say a trillion dollars in gold

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that they wear around their neck or whatever.

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It's like, you're the most monstrous thing I can think of.

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Totally.

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And that's the thing too, with Alex Jones' viewers, these people, it's a little bit like

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thinking about cult members who go on to recruit new cult members.

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It's not to take away the responsibility of the Alex Jones viewers who went on to harass

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the Sandy Hook parents, but it is to say that they are also being harmed by Alex Jones and

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his rhetoric because Alex is feeding them lies and they are trusting him to deliver

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the truth.

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And so they are also harmed by this, even as they are part of the problem.

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Like leaving someone like, was that Lucy Richards and the folks who have harassed the families

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aside, like let's leave them aside for a second, but in principle, I always have tried to look

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at things as like empathy towards the consumer of this bullshit and like really real strong

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disdain to the producer because they are being at least disserved.

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Sure.

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And in this case specifically, part of holding Alex accountable is that the people who harassed

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the families, they're the bullets, and Alex is the gun that fired them.

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And I don't like bullets any more than I like the person firing the gun, but if you try

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and like punish the bullets, the gun is going to keep firing.

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You know, it's absurd.

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Totally.

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Yeah.

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There are more bullets out there.

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Nobody stopped making bullets.

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Totally.

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Totally.

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And I'm, yesterday I taught my class about kind of the first amendment and misconceptions

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around the first amendment and how it relates to social media.

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Did they give you a standing ovation when you walked in the room?

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That was your first time testifying?

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What?

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Although a lot of them were like, how was the trial, how did it go?

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But yeah, this is the thing that like, and there are incredible scholars working on this,

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that historically thinking about the first amendment, this idea that Alex Jones promotes

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about like the first amendment and freedom of speech means that I personally, as an individual

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should be able to say anything that I want to say.

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That's not been the way that the first amendment has been understood, like throughout the history

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of the United States.

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And in fact, like many kind of top legal minds have said, actually that, you know, you need

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to think about freedom of speech more in a communal sense and thinking about what will

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get the most speech to flourish within a community.

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And also part of freedom of speech is also the freedom to hear valuable information.

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And so that is where kind of, it's whatever, it's sorry, I'm rambling now, but it just

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really makes me angry.

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No, you're not.

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You're telling obvious and noble and real truth, yes.

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Yeah, I think I always find that so interesting, but in like a boring way, if that makes sense,

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the notions of the first amendment that people like Alex have, it's interesting to me that

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it exists, but like, it's so boring how much they bring it up in completely like unapplicable

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situations.

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As a fan of baseball, the true American pastime is misunderstanding the bill of rights.

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Well, it's like if someone hits a foul ball out of the park and they invoke the infield

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fire rule.

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And they just keep running.

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What?

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What is happening?

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Yeah.

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But that's the thing.

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I think it's not only, it's not just Alex Jones, but you know, like it's the social

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media platforms have promoted this idea of free speech.

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And the reason that it's partly interesting to me is that the reason they promote that

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idea of free speech is because that's the idea that's profitable to them, right?

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The more-

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Isn't that crazy?

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Yeah.

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Isn't that crazy to think about how it's not just the people who use Facebook who are advancing

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this concept.

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It is Facebook itself because they don't have to hold themselves accountable.

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Exactly.

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So they sell this idea of like, you should be allowed to say whatever you want because

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no one will sue us then.

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You know?

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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That's an interesting picture then.

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You know, it becomes more clear that there's a lot more responsibility to go around.

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Yes.

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The amount of responsibility to go around, I find absurdly high.

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Yes.

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Pretty heavy.

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And in all of these cases, it's like, this is not to take away the responsibility from

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the other people.

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It's just that there's also more shitty actors involved in various ways.

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I mean, it goes all the way back to, you know, we discussed it a while back, le problematique.

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You know, like the idea that all of these things are interconnected.

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They are not individual elements to, or individual things.

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They're all part of a larger whole that we're not dealing with.

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See, Jordan's talking to an academic now, so he tries to sound smart by pulling out

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something from the club of Rome.

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I pulled out the one thing I remember from our past.

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Can I actually say though?

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Okay.

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I know Jordan, you like to say that you're like just a clown and all of this stuff, but

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I have to say that you're not, whatever you're about to say next.

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Do not say it.

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He's gotten too much positive feedback over the last two weeks.

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I remain a clown and I shall stay one till the day I die.

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How dare you madam?

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Okay.

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I'm just going to make you angry for a second and say something, another nice thing, which

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is as clownish as the delivery was, there you go, I couched it in an insult.

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There we go.

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Now I'm listening.

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Now I'm listening.

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All right.

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The critiques of the media coverage of the Alex Jones trial, I think have been so necessary

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and spot on because this is actually even before I wrote my report on YouTube, my colleague

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Alice Marwick and I wrote a report about how much the mainstream media plays a role in

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the amplification of far right content and feeds directly into their ideas.

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And I think that you've been hitting the nail on the head with all of that and the coverage,

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there've been a few journalists who have been there like day in, day out who are doing incredible

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work, obviously like Elizabeth being one of them.

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But then the people don't forget Murdoch, Sebastian was there.

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Absolutely.

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Incredible work.

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And then people that have less Twitter presence, but like there's an incredible court reporter

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from Reuters and yeah.

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Dan Solomon from Texas Monthly.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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He's been crushing it.

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And then you get all these other people parachuting in only when Alex, I mean, I'm just telling

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you what you've been tweeting, but yeah, it really is the perfect thing.

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I have to push back a tiny bit on your compliment to Jordan, because...

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Oh, please.

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I think that you're totally right that the critiques that you were making and putting

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forth were valid and very valuable.

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Somewhat.

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But also let's not encourage the...

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I mean, it's done.

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And I said what I wanted to say, I mean, I said the final thing.

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You don't need to tweet at Glenn Greenwald a thousand times.

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I don't need to tweet ever again.

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That is done.

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That is the end of that.

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I'm finished with that.

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I'm just saying, make those critiques and don't send a thousand tweets at Glenn Greenwald.

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Yeah, there is that.

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I just feel like the last thing I said was...

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Send a thousand tweets at Ron Flipkowski.

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That's fine.

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That is fine.

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Yeah.

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Corrass him.

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I can't even fuck with Barnes anymore.

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He got shit on real fast.

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He blocked you?

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Yeah.

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Oh yeah.

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No, I mean, I do think one of the big things that the media absolutely refuses to acknowledge

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is that part of the reason they like to amplify these voices is so they get to clown on them.

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And then creating that owning the conservatives turns into another owning the libs and it

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just creates this feedback loop and they refuse to acknowledge their part in it.

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Well, I think that, particularly in the case of the Ron Flipkowski guy, it's kind of the

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same criticism or at least tangential to it that I had of the documentary about Alex.

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And that is that you're not giving people context for this.

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So you're showing this video of Alex saying something that he would probably stand behind.

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And the implication is you're supposed to see this and already know it's nuts and already

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have some sort of a criticism for it.

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But instead it's just being broadcast to tons of people and it's just being amplified.

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I don't think it gets the effect that people who are putting it forth seem to think it

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would.

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I think it gets the effect that Flipkowski wants.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Lots of traffic.

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And this is why Richard Spencer was a master of this because at any time the mainstream

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media wanted to talk to him, he was more than happy to chat with them.

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The mainstream media that he so hated, you know, wear a tie or profile about him.

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Of course.

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Yeah.

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Nice Nazis.

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Why are we mean to them?

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Exactly.

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Listen, if 99 out of a hundred people read that and hate him, he doesn't care.

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It's that one person who listens to him and says, maybe he has a point that he's trying

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to reach out to and the mainstream media, I mean, this is also why I think people like

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Alex, one of the reasons they can be effective is because the very first fraction of the

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first part of what they're saying is a valid critique of the mainstream media.

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And then they just take it from there and take it in wildly inaccurate, awful directions.

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Right.

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But to say that the mainstream media is sensationalist is true.

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Yep.

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Well, that's a problem with a lot of his critiques.

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I mean, there's a critique to be made of the government being ineffectual and not representing

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necessarily the will of the electorate, you know, there's, there's things like that.

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And do you know, maybe just to be totally clear, false flags do exist, right?

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It is a thing that has happened.

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And so yeah, those kernels of, of, of something, he gets too much mileage.

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I mean, there is, there is a, the, the simplest critique that there is to make honestly is

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like the same thing that you could say for the Democrats.

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Like what your real electability comes from isn't what you say.

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It's if you govern well, people will be like, hell yeah.

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The reason that people hate you is because you're also failing.

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Maybe you're doing some good.

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Maybe you're doing on the whole more good than, than bad.

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But at the same time, if you're not willing to engage with all the bad you're doing, then

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you're just going to keep doing it.

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Totally.

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And yeah, like I just want to make clear like those, those kernels, I think they're dangerous

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because that becomes a, it becomes a, a mechanism by which to kind of ensnare people in, in

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his worldview.

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Yes, absolutely.

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A hundred percent.

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So hold on.

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I didn't get, I don't think I got an answer to my question from earlier, except for Tim

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Poole.

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Yes.

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Who else should we be afraid of?

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Oh, I think the exact people that you're covering.

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I think Glenn Greenwald, Matt Taibbi, Tucker Carlson, Tim Poole.

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I think it's a much more institutionally powerful.

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All those white men have in common.

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But I think that what's interesting is that for a while it was this group of, for lack

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of a better word, like internet weirdos, right?

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Like a lot of them didn't have institutional power and now a lot of them do.

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And some of these people who are in this, you know, who are, you know, people you pointed

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out in 2018 are people who have ascended to more similar, like seeming institutional power,

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like Dave Rubin, you know, from having a YouTube thing to now he's on Glenn Beck's network.

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Steven Crowder has certainly, oh wait, he's on The Blaze too.

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But he's certainly elevated significantly since this point.

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Nick Fuentes, you know, back then was just sort of a Nazi who would go and argue with

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people on Twitch or YouTube, now has his own cozy streaming platform.

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Certainly more centralized power, Milo Yiannopoulos, who fell apart, but now I guess is working

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with Marjorie Taylor Greene.

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Sure, why not?

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Right.

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Yeah, that's another thing.

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A lot of this has changed.

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Right.

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That's a great point with Marjorie Taylor Greene that like now you have enough literal

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members of Congress who are on board with these folks that that has significantly changed

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the landscape as well.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, there's also an argument that I keep coming back to of like, it is very

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easy to get caught up in this sort of recency bias while at the same time being like, well,

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you know, things were different back then.

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People were more in the middle and maybe there's just part of it is that because society was

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so geared towards white people, they didn't even have to say anything.

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You know, like, why would you be an extremist during slavery?

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You own people.

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Why would you be like, oh, we need to come after the government?

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You're like, no, the government gives me people to do things for free.

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Of course.

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Why?

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I think that's spot on.

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And even, you know, I, of course, my my area of research in the Internet, and I think it

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would be weird if I were studying that and didn't think that the Internet played an important

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role.

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But of course, of course, of course, that being said, I think that there you get in

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my field way too much of people claiming that it's all the Internet's fault.

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And I don't think that's true at all.

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It's like, you know, if you look at the radicalization of the Republican Party, that was starting

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in the in the 1960s.

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Right.

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That was the tweet that Alex Jones, his lawyer, was trying to catch me up.

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So funny.

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So funny.

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It was about the Southern strategy and that proved the Southern strategy was racist.

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Oh, did they say it was racist?

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Whoa!

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He got you good.

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But you know, even then, the Southern strategy wouldn't have worked unless there was a demand

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for it.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Totally.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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100 percent.

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And none of this other, you know, none of this content and the production of it that

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we're discussing would either.

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Right.

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Yeah, totally.

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Yeah.

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They're tapping into an audience.

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Hmm.

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That's a bummer.

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And they're fueling it and growing it.

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But I know I know this.

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I mean, I'd be curious to hear how how you all are feeling after what has just been like

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a roller coaster a couple of weeks, because I've found it to be quite draining, to say

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the least.

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Yeah.

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I found it to be less sleep than I've ever not had in the past.

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It was chaotic, for sure.

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We should just be totally clear.

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We're recording this after the compensatory damages have been announced, but they're still

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deliberating the punitive, so we don't know the full outcome of everything.

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But yeah, it was, you know, the case itself and going to the trial was draining in many

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ways.

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Some parts of it pretty rewarding and I think affirming, like Scarlett's testimony in particular

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was something that I think will stay with many people for the rest of their lives.

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I won't forget it.

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But then also just the, I don't know, maybe I'm in a unique position because I was there

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for the depositions of Daria and Alex.

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Yeah.

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So I had heard a lot of the content of the first few days.

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And so for me, it was kind of a, there was a lot of, some of that stuff was a little

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bit of an exhausting thing for me because I just didn't have anything new for my brain

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to attach to.

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Yeah.

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I think the one thing that I really noticed from the trial is that, well, I'll say there's

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two things, like first off that job opening concept that I really feel like Glenn and

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Matt just jumped in.

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I also feel like we just jumped into a job opening.

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Like there should be a media outlet that has us, you know, just two people who study one

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subject so thoroughly.

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One.

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Yeah.

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One person.

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Oh, God damn it, I got my ass beat on that one, I just got a spit in my back.

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Well, to be fair, that was a weird thing for you to say.

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It was a weird thing for me to say, but it was still a job opening and maybe more newspapers

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need clowns.

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But the other thing, the other thing is that when they were choosing a jury, the concept

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of you shouldn't know anything about Alex Jones or the Sandy Hook case to me is not

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a jury of your peers.

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It just isn't.

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Like the only peers that Alex have are people who understand why Alex is never telling the

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truth or never lying.

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He just doesn't care.

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So whenever you get him caught out in a lie, you know, and you get caught out in a perjury

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situation, he doesn't even know.

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Yeah.

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And the other thing that was really exhausting, I think about the trial too, was the constant

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pretend game that the defense was playing where they pretended not to understand it

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was a damages hearing.

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Yeah.

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So infuriating.

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That to me was exhausting.

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Yeah.

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Here's why he's innocent.

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And it was also like a lot of emotional whiplash because it was this constant thing between

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like the clownishness and, and constant chaos of Alex Jones world and the like very real

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and present sense of tragedy that was there.

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And it was just back and forth between those two incredibly intense kind of emotional States

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for two weeks solid.

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Yeah.

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And that day, that Tuesday where it was Neil and Scarlet in the morning and then Alex testifying

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after was just like, that was too much to handle.

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Yeah.

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It was abusive.

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I took a nap afterwards.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:10.039)

I was like, I can't, I mean, yeah, we both, we both went home and we're just done, you

Unknown Speaker (01:09:15.319)

know?

Unknown Speaker (01:09:16.319)

Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:17.319)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:18.319)

And, and it's, it's like, it's like, you know, you all have been saying, it's just the chaos

Unknown Speaker (01:09:24.279)

and the clownishness, it's so easy to get wrapped up in it and I get wrapped up in it.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:31.779)

And then I find myself feeling awful because really at the end of the day, it's about Scarlet

Unknown Speaker (01:09:36.399)

and Neil and, and just, I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:40.239)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:41.239)

I feel, I feel like that's such a great point.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:44.199)

And it's something that I feel privileged to have been able to, like, I did a few interviews

Unknown Speaker (01:09:49.399)

with things and being able to like stress that has been really, I think important, like

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being able to have that voice.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:58.880)

But the thing that kind of bums me out is when I have, the reporters have seemed surprised

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a little bit.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:06.039)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:07.039)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:08.039)

You're the Alex Jones guy.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:09.039)

Only talk about Alex Jones.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:10.039)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:11.039)

That kind of makes me a little bit sad that I think a lot of, a lot of forest for trees

Unknown Speaker (01:10:15.399)

is going on.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:16.399)

I won't, I won't name anybody's name, but, uh, we got an email from, uh, the, uh, from

Unknown Speaker (01:10:22.600)

a t-shirt producer that was like, I can see you're getting a lot of heat for this trial

Unknown Speaker (01:10:27.399)

thing.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:28.399)

Do you want to do a special on your shirts?

Unknown Speaker (01:10:30.039)

And I really just, I just replied back like, Hey, listen, are you saying that we should

Unknown Speaker (01:10:36.039)

profit off of the families of Sandy Hook?

Unknown Speaker (01:10:38.279)

Is that what you're really trying to tell me right now?

Unknown Speaker (01:10:40.500)

Cause that's what you are telling me, you know, and it's like, I want to, I want to

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light you on fire.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:45.239)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:46.239)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:47.239)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:48.239)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:49.239)

I I've been grappling with that too.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:50.239)

Cause like, like obviously I, um, I have absolutely, you know, I've seen a lot of the love that,

Unknown Speaker (01:10:56.680)

you know, knowledge by listeners have been giving, giving to me, which is like so appreciated

Unknown Speaker (01:11:01.079)

and really validating and affirming, but also it's like, it's not, it's not about me.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:06.279)

It's not about, you know, any of the, any of the people that, you know, are, are surrounding

Unknown Speaker (01:11:12.039)

this.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:13.039)

It's, yeah, it's about these parents and it's just so easy to forget that.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:17.560)

Yeah, it is.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:18.680)

But I think that, uh, one of the things that is great about our listeners is that I do

Unknown Speaker (01:11:24.079)

think that they're appreciating you because of that 100%.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:28.920)

It is on behalf of the family because it's, it's, uh, you know, you're, you're a presence

Unknown Speaker (01:11:36.100)

that is, they're helping, uh, highlight this, this thing.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:40.000)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:41.000)

And I should be clear, that's not a dig at your listeners at all.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:43.520)

They've been incredible.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:44.520)

This is about me and my discomfort with attention.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:47.039)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:48.039)

You heard Jordan's response to a compliment earlier.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:51.960)

Yeah, it's the same thing.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:55.800)

So what about you?

Unknown Speaker (01:11:56.800)

Like all in all, what was your takeaway and experience of being there?

Unknown Speaker (01:12:01.680)

And I apologize that we actually didn't even get a chance to meet in person due to schedules

Unknown Speaker (01:12:08.039)

and

Unknown Speaker (01:12:09.039)

Obviously the whole thing was chaos.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:10.479)

I also was specifically trying to lay low before I went on the stand because it was

Unknown Speaker (01:12:16.279)

very funny.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:17.279)

Uh, you didn't know this, but actually at one point, maybe you did know this, but actually

Unknown Speaker (01:12:20.680)

at one point I was sitting directly behind you while you were having a conversation with

Unknown Speaker (01:12:24.520)

a Mr. Zip about your upcoming testimony.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:27.399)

And I don't think either of you had any idea who I was.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:30.560)

It's very funny.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:31.560)

That's really funny to hear cause I did know who you were and I thought you had no idea

Unknown Speaker (01:12:36.880)

who I was.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:37.880)

Oh no.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:38.880)

To be fair, you were also sitting behind her, so it's easy to ignore someone behind you.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:44.640)

I did spot you guys a couple of times in the courtroom, but like, like I think maybe on

Unknown Speaker (01:12:49.600)

the first day, were you there in person?

Unknown Speaker (01:12:51.640)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:52.640)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:53.640)

Sweaty as hell.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:54.640)

Sweaty as hell.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:55.640)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:56.640)

That was me.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:57.640)

That's right.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:58.640)

I, I, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:59.640)

Thank you for forgetting that.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:00.640)

Thank you.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:01.640)

That really does make me good.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:02.640)

I genuinely didn't see the sweat in person, but I saw the memes about the sweat.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:08.119)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:09.119)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:10.119)

Way better.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:11.119)

Way better to hear it through the news.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:13.720)

There was a part of me that kind of felt like maybe you would be inappropriate to talk to

Unknown Speaker (01:13:19.399)

you also because of like your status as a witness.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:22.520)

Oh yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:23.520)

That's how I felt.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:24.520)

That's how I felt.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:25.520)

That's why I didn't speak to anybody.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:26.520)

I tried to stay as silent as possible.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:28.520)

Technically as an expert witness, I think it would have been fine, but that was my approach

Unknown Speaker (01:13:31.960)

too.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:32.960)

It was just like, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to go up and introduce myself to them until

Unknown Speaker (01:13:35.920)

after I've, I've testified.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:38.119)

But then we didn't, we didn't get a chance to do that, but anyways, yeah, so, so that's

Unknown Speaker (01:13:41.960)

funny that we all knew who all of us were.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:44.000)

And yeah, in terms of my reaction, yeah, it's like, it's really similar.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:52.039)

Like I found it to be thrilling at times because it really does feel like this is the start

Unknown Speaker (01:14:01.119)

of a snowball of accountability, hopefully.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:07.920)

And at times, at other times I found myself feeling like it doesn't matter how much money

Unknown Speaker (01:14:14.760)

ends up coming back to him because there's so much damage has already been done that

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can't be undone.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:21.640)

And I don't know, I just, I find myself kind of yo-yoing between these like intense reactions.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:28.699)

And then also I did find like you, you both have been commentating on the, the dynamics

Unknown Speaker (01:14:35.560)

of the, the trial and the media around it and everything are fascinating in their own

Unknown Speaker (01:14:41.119)

way.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:42.119)

So there was like my direct emotional response to it.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:44.079)

And then there was also the like academic response or in your case is the podcaster

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response of like, this is a phenomenon worthy of study and commentating

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on in itself.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:59.479)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:00.479)

Like the way that Alex Jones and his team are trying to abuse the justice system in

Unknown Speaker (01:15:06.520)

the same way that they've abused the media system is fascinating and succeeding and succeeded.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:12.920)

And I don't know if you had the same response that I kind of did, but as I, you know, come

Unknown Speaker (01:15:17.880)

home and I have a little bit more distance from it, I realized that I felt a little bit

Unknown Speaker (01:15:22.220)

of a dissonance and maybe even a little bit of a shame about the because I try to, as

Unknown Speaker (01:15:29.199)

much as possible, despite my very impassioned speech at the beginning of the Greenwald episode,

Unknown Speaker (01:15:35.279)

I try to keep a sort of distance from the topics that we cover in order to not just

Unknown Speaker (01:15:42.960)

be you.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:43.960)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:44.960)

And I don't mean that in an insulting way.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:45.960)

No, no, no.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:46.960)

I understand.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:47.960)

I understand.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:48.960)

And so it's, it's, it was really difficult to have this thing that I have a huge interest

Unknown Speaker (01:15:55.279)

in having a sort of detached approach to where you have this trial of the person that I've

Unknown Speaker (01:16:01.539)

been studying and this is, this is ridiculous.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:04.920)

But then at the same time, the impossible to not have an emotional connection with experience

Unknown Speaker (01:16:12.020)

of seeing Neil and Scarlett in the, in the courtroom and testifying and, and their therapists

Unknown Speaker (01:16:17.819)

and yeah, you know, it's, it, that, that conflict was, was really difficult to live in.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:23.520)

I'm not generally a fan of weeping in public, but I mean, I just, there's no other way,

Unknown Speaker (01:16:28.920)

you know?

Unknown Speaker (01:16:29.920)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:30.920)

And in fact, I, I completely agree.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:32.220)

And I struggle with that dissonance too, although I also don't think sometimes I think that

Unknown Speaker (01:16:37.500)

the dissonance or pitting these things against each other, they don't need to be pitted against

Unknown Speaker (01:16:43.979)

each other that you can, you can, and this is maybe a little bit what I was trying to

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get across when I talked about confirmation bias, that like to, to be starting with the

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data and not having confirmation bias doesn't mean you can't have opinions or emotions about

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the things that you're studying.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:02.619)

It means that you start with the data and you let that inform your, your thoughts and

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opinions, but you still have those thoughts and opinions.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:10.800)

They're just informed by the data.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:13.100)

And I also think that to study these issues in any kind of ethical way, you need to approach

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it with humanity because otherwise you're just going to get swept up in their propaganda.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:24.420)

You need to have that humanity there first and foremost, and think about the people that

Unknown Speaker (01:17:28.479)

are being harmed by this rhetoric.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:31.420)

And so, no, I think you should just write a lot about how the families want money and

Unknown Speaker (01:17:36.420)

Alex Jones is really sorry for what he did and he admitted that he was wrong.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:41.340)

Yeah, I think that's a good way to do it.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:43.300)

I say this also as someone who like in 2016 there was this wave of scholarship that started

Unknown Speaker (01:17:48.779)

to come out about the alt-right that just came from these people that were kind of like,

Unknown Speaker (01:17:52.659)

Oh, isn't it fascinating that 4chan has all these memes, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:17:56.180)

And it wasn't really coming from it from a place of thinking about why does this matter?

Unknown Speaker (01:18:02.779)

And the minute that you start thinking about why does this matter, there's going to be

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emotions involved.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:08.460)

And so I think it's, it's actually important to hold space for those.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:13.060)

And that doesn't have to be in contradiction to kind of approaching things from a, from

Unknown Speaker (01:18:17.020)

a fair and balanced and non-confirmation bias perspective.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:20.460)

Yeah, I appreciate that point.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:22.460)

I think that's, I think that's definitely right, but it's still, it still can be difficult.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:27.020)

But yeah, I think you're totally right.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:29.020)

I'm not saying it's easy.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:30.020)

I struggle with it all the time.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:31.859)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:32.859)

I think most people, especially in America, believe that expertise leads to bias.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:39.539)

You know, like, because you understand all this stuff, you can't think about it objectively,

Unknown Speaker (01:18:44.819)

which is absurd.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:45.819)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:46.819)

That's interesting because I think that most people think that expertise leads you to be

Unknown Speaker (01:18:51.140)

like sort of a cold dispassionate, I don't know how many professors in like classics

Unknown Speaker (01:18:59.140)

or philosophy you've met.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:01.140)

But a lot of them are pretty, uh, right.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:03.979)

I mean, I mean like the reaction to experts in, well, I mean like the reaction to Dr.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:09.060)

Fauci, you know, like the reaction to these people, Dr. Fausti, the evil Dr. devil-worshipping

Unknown Speaker (01:19:16.739)

Fausti.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:17.739)

Lock him up.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:18.739)

But there is a, there is a bias against people who know things.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:23.500)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:24.500)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:25.500)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:26.500)

Well, I guess that's right.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:27.500)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:28.500)

It's like, again, when I was on the stand, like, Oh, you already like knew that Alex

Unknown Speaker (01:19:33.140)

Jones was harmful when you got hired.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:35.060)

It's like, yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:37.420)

How could I not?

Unknown Speaker (01:19:40.859)

It is interesting that premise of like, uh, you had a position and then they hired you.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:45.659)

It's like, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:46.659)

Do you want them to randomly hire somebody who has no, Oh, off the dome, I'm going to

Unknown Speaker (01:19:52.140)

go and say, uh, Alex might be good.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:54.340)

Or let's, let's look at another unfortunate reality and that is that anybody who is probably

Unknown Speaker (01:20:00.100)

a sort of credentialed to be in the position you are in has a negative opinion about exactly

Unknown Speaker (01:20:06.300)

yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:07.300)

Right, right, right.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:08.300)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:09.300)

There's a reason they didn't bring their own expert with a different opinion.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:12.140)

There were none.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:14.300)

Nobody was like, Alex Jones is really bringing the world to a better place, except for maybe

Unknown Speaker (01:20:17.920)

Steve Pachannik and there would be conflicts of interest.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:21.340)

Yeah, I mean, this is a, this is a debate in social science too, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:20:27.020)

You have people that try to say that you need to take this completely like, um, uh, you

Unknown Speaker (01:20:34.420)

need to try to have this neutral approach.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:37.020)

That's a view from nowhere type of thing.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:38.699)

And then you have people that are more like tend to be more ethnographers and, and people

Unknown Speaker (01:20:43.619)

doing qualitative research who say, no, like none of us can escape our own perspective.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:48.819)

It's about understanding how that perspective informs what you're doing.

Unknown Speaker (01:20:52.659)

Um, and so it's like, yes, as, as a woman, a bi woman, a bi Jewish woman, like all of

Unknown Speaker (01:21:00.979)

these things, I'm very conscious of how that affects the way that I read hate speech online,

Unknown Speaker (01:21:05.460)

right?

Unknown Speaker (01:21:06.460)

And the way that I can't believe the far right really attacks you.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:09.500)

That's so crazy.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:10.500)

But on the flip side, you've got the trifecta.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:12.500)

On the flip side, I'm a white woman, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:21:18.060)

And so like, I need to stay conscious of that when I'm reading anti-black racist content,

Unknown Speaker (01:21:22.539)

you know, that like, I'm not going to fully understand the pain that that brings to black

Unknown Speaker (01:21:27.819)

people.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:28.819)

Um, and so I think there are ways to understand like where we all are situated in the world

Unknown Speaker (01:21:35.979)

that aren't, it's not about confirmation bias.

Unknown Speaker (01:21:38.420)

It's about staying conscious to our own, you know, the, the, the very academic you word

Unknown Speaker (01:21:44.979)

about it as a positionality, you know, um, what's, what's your position within the world

Unknown Speaker (01:21:50.659)

and how does that affect how you see things?

Unknown Speaker (01:21:52.899)

And I think, you know, yeah, um, I'll stop going down that rabbit hole, but

Unknown Speaker (01:21:58.619)

yeah, well, I mean, it is, it is a little bit like the idea.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:02.140)

I saw a university of Chicago, uh, economic study about slavery that treated slavery as

Unknown Speaker (01:22:08.880)

like purely an economic system and like, was this a libertarian?

Unknown Speaker (01:22:12.460)

Well, I mean, it's the university of Chicago economics department, they tend to do stuff

Unknown Speaker (01:22:17.180)

like that.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:18.180)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:19.180)

And it's like, you can't, I mean, I feel like ethically, that is just a wrong thing to do.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:24.819)

The libertarian study on the economic impacts of feeding your child.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:29.180)

Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:30.340)

It's like, what are we talking about feeding your child is negatively beneficial.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:36.460)

The problem is you care about your child and that's where this whole system has gone wrong

Unknown Speaker (01:22:42.020)

because it's negative.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:43.199)

You have no positive obligations.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:44.859)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:45.859)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:46.859)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:47.859)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:48.859)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:49.859)

I guess that's the wrong side of it.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:52.859)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:22:53.859)

Well, we should probably wrap this up before too long for a couple of reasons.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:00.340)

First, this has been a delight and I hope we can talk again soon, but second, I have

Unknown Speaker (01:23:04.699)

the live stream up of the courtroom.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:08.420)

There's movement in the courtroom.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:09.979)

So the jury may have reached the punitive.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:14.319)

Or they just have more questions, which is possible.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:16.979)

That's possible too, but I feel like we all have an interest in this and we should probably...

Unknown Speaker (01:23:23.859)

Thank you for that heads up.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:24.859)

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:25.859)

Thank you so much for having me on the show.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:27.659)

I can't stress enough how much of your podcast I listened to when I was prepping for this

Unknown Speaker (01:23:33.340)

case.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:34.340)

That's so great and a thrill to hear.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:38.020)

And right back at you, a lot of your work and published pieces have been really important

Unknown Speaker (01:23:44.779)

in terms of giving some context and insights into a lot of this world.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:49.939)

That is a compliment that we will take.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:51.779)

You listen to our show to apply Dan's life's work for good.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:56.779)

That's good stuff.

Unknown Speaker (01:23:58.539)

I'm glad that I can look at you as...

Unknown Speaker (01:24:01.779)

I feel like we can be peers.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:03.619)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:04.619)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:05.619)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:06.619)

Is there any-

Unknown Speaker (01:24:07.619)

I dominate that space.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:08.619)

I wish I had a honk sound effect.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:11.619)

Yes, exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:12.619)

Is there anything you want to direct listeners to, the place they can find you?

Unknown Speaker (01:24:17.659)

Yeah, sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:18.659)

You can go to...

Unknown Speaker (01:24:19.659)

If you're interested in reading my research, you can go to my website, which is beccalew.net.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:28.579)

Or you can go to my Twitter, which is beccalew, and that's where I shit post.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:34.619)

Awesome.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:37.699)

Well thank you again for joining us.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:39.579)

Thank you so much.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:40.579)

It's been just a treat.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:42.140)

And like I said, I hope we can speak again soon.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:44.779)

And thank you for being a voice that centers the families too.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:47.739)

That's very important.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:48.739)

Thank you both.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:49.739)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:50.739)

All right.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:51.739)

Well, we'll be back for another episode, but until then, Jordan, we have a website.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:55.859)

We do have a website.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:56.859)

It's knowledgefight.com.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:57.859)

We're also on Twitter.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:58.859)

We are on Twitter.

Unknown Speaker (01:24:59.859)

It's at knowledge underscore fight.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:01.380)

And we'll be back, but until then, I'm Neo, I'm Leo, I'm DZX Clark.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:11.260)

I hope you all have a wonderful, dreamy, creamy summer.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:14.859)

Andy in Kansas.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:15.859)

You're on the air.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:16.859)

Thanks for holding.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:17.859)

Hello, Alex.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:18.859)

I'm a first time caller.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:19.859)

I'm a huge fan.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:20.859)

I love your work.

Unknown Speaker (01:25:21.859)

I love you.