Transcript/Doing Dune: Part 2

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We've got worm sign!

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Red alert! Red alert! Red alert!

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Worm mix.

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Red alert! Red alert! Red alert!

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N-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-knowledge fight.

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Worm fight.

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N-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-knowledge fight.

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Damn and worm, I am sweating.

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N-n-n-n-n-n-knowledgefight.com.

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It's Don Coney.

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I have great respect for knowledge fight.

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Knowledge fight.

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I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys, saying we are the bad guys.

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N-n-n-n-knowledge fight.

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Dan and Jordan.

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Knowledge fight.

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Red alert! Red alert! Red alert!

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Need, need, spice.

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Red alert! Red alert!

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Andy and Kansas.

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Andy and Kansas.

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Stop it.

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Andy and Kansas.

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Andy and Kansas.

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Andy and...

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Just because that's how they rock.

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Andy and...

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Andy and Arrakis.

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Hello Alex, I'm a big fan, I'm a huge fan.

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I love your worm.

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Knowledge fight.

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N-n-n-n-n-n-knowledgefight.com.

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I love you.

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Hey everybody, welcome back to Doin' Dune with Dan.

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Doin' Bein' Done.

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We're doing part two.

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Part two.

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Part two of Dennisville in Nueves Dune.

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2024.

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Absolutely.

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New, new shit.

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Very good.

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I love that we don't really notice how long our theme song is until we start doing a remix

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in the middle of it, and then we're like, I've run out of ideas.

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Run out of steam?

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I had some other ideas, but I ran out of steam.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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There's a good ten second lull in there probably.

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Both of us are like, oh boy, there's still quite a ways to go.

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We've made it different enough to call it a remix.

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Let's pack it in.

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We should have emailed DJ Dan.

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Probably.

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What are you gonna do?

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Oh boy.

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So Jordan, we've finished.

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We've finished it.

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Sort of.

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I mean, there's still other Dune content out there, certainly, but we've seen the three

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major movies now.

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Sure, sure.

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It is fun that the part two ends almost exactly the same way that part one does with, ah,

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this movie's just about to start, buddy.

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Yeah.

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Any moment now.

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That was a little annoying, because I did think that there would be more of a finality

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to this.

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I understood that there was more story to tell, but the way that the first one ended

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with Desert Power, this is just the beginning.

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This is just the beginning.

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And then the way that this ended with, this is just the beginning.

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This is just the beginning even more so.

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Essentially, I think it wasn't the line, they didn't say that line, but it did feel that

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way.

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It was a little annoying.

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Yeah.

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And I'm not, hey, look, I don't want to give away my feelings, but the fact that there

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isn't another one I can just watch now is a little frustrating.

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It's not too dissimilar from having a fin card that's like the end dot dot dot, or is

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it?

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Well, it's obviously not.

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Yeah.

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Well, it is.

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No.

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Everything ends in chaos.

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What's it going to do?

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Nothing is resolved.

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There's nothing much to do.

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Come on.

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There's everything to do.

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No.

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There's a whole galactic empire or whatever.

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Sure.

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Sure.

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All right.

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So it starts exactly where the part one left off, which I really like.

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I like, if you're going to cut a movie and have fucking, at the end of the intermission,

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I want to be right back where I started.

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You know what I'm saying?

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Paul hanging out with the Fremen.

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Being cool in the desert.

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Yep.

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Doing steel suit shit.

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Right.

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Yep.

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How do you like them?

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I liked it fine.

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Yeah?

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I thought they had a lovely terrorist romance that was well told.

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Paul and Chani's terrorist romance?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I thought they actually felt like they cared about each other, which was different than

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the 84 version.

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Yes.

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It is nice to see her be a character.

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Yeah.

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I thought Zendaya was great.

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She was.

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I think she does a great job with that character.

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Yeah.

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I don't know.

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Where are we at the beginning?

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All right.

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Are they taking out the Harkonnen Walker?

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Right at the beginning is we're in the desert.

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They got to try and hang out with the cool people.

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Oh, that's right.

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Right.

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That's right.

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He has to...

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They're like...

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Yes.

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Yes.

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They have to meet Stilgar.

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Yeah.

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They have to prove themselves before they're allowed to be terrorists.

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Right.

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It's like the scene that you liked in the 84 version, where she was given the opportunity

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to grab Stilgar real quick, and they were like, whoa, she's super powerful.

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Right?

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In this one, it's way better.

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Yes.

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As opposed to just a weird random like, aha, I caught you.

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But I think that was in the part one.

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Oh, yeah, you're right.

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That was in part one.

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That was in part one.

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Right.

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In part two, we have the conflict of whether or not they will be accepted into the Fremen

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community.

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Right.

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And so Paul has to take his little walk across the desert or whatever, and then Stilgar tells

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Jessica that like, you should just be water.

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We could kill you.

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Yeah.

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Unless you do the thing that I want you to do.

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Right.

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Now, this was fascinating to me.

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That move on Stilgar's part.

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Okay.

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Well, Stilgar is a zealot in some ways.

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Sure.

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He believes in the prophecy of the, what is it?

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Quizal Tzadarach.

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What's the other one?

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The Lisan al-Gaib.

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The Lisan al-Gaib.

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Yeah.

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Oh, yeah.

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He's definitely...

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Lisan al-Gaib!

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He is a believer.

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Yeah.

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But at the same time, there's part of the prophecy that the Lisan al-Gaib has to be

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the child of the mother.

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Yes.

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What's it called?

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In the Fremen, it's the Sayyidina.

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In the Ben of Jezerit, it's a reverend mother.

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Yeah.

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It's the reverend mother is the mother of the Lisan al-Gaib.

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So he's forcing this prophecy.

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He goes to Jessica and is like, we could kill you unless you do this.

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Sure.

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We have to make this prophecy come true that I believe in.

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There's faith, but there's also a cynicism that he's expressing.

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I found that to be very interesting because Javier Bardem is a great actor.

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And I think he was able to embody some of that, like, I believe in this prophecy.

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You doing this will work with that prophecy.

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You not doing this means that it's not you and I could just kill you.

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He knows he's strong-arming her.

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Sure.

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Sure.

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But we also find out later on that this is not the first time he believes he's seen the

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Lisan al-Gaib.

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Seen some signs.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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So people are kind of wary of him just throwing out, oh great, it's another Messiah from Stilgar

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again.

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Right, right.

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So I'm sure he has that.

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And you're right.

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I think he plays that really well of being like, hey, listen, I believe in this stuff.

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But at the end of the day, I am a politician.

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And if I go back to them and I say, she doesn't want to be part of anything, they're going

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to be like, well, then put her in the lake.

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You know what I'm saying?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You're not useful to us.

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You're an outsider.

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Yeah.

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And if you want to save your life, you will help me bring about this prophecy.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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And that is such an interesting line of faith because it is well presented, I think, because

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of the quality of acting and because the story has so much time to breathe.

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But that like tension of, I don't doubt that he believes he's a true believer, but he's

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also acting incredibly cynically in order to force things that would reinforce and prop

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up the belief.

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Right.

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I think that's an interesting point because that's a major theme.

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The idea of how much is it faith and how much is it like, you've got no choice but to do

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this to live.

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You know, all of the, all of the Bene Gesserit, these are signs, these are things that are

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happening are also places where it eventually points down to like, either you do this or

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you die.

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So is it faith or is it that if you don't fulfill this prophecy, you're just going to

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die anyways?

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Right.

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Right.

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And then eventually someone will come along who-

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Will do what we told them to do.

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Takes the choice of not dying.

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Yep.

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And that will be fulfillment.

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Yeah.

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So the question then is like, how much agency even does the person who has the ultimate

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agency have?

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Mm-hmm.

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None.

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In a way, in a way, and I would believe that if there weren't magic powers.

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There is that problem.

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That is a part that like, the fact that everyone, like not everyone, but a lot of people could

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do some really magical shit.

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Oh yeah.

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Like, if that didn't exist and this was just a very human story, but on another planet-

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Right.

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You know, like then the cynicism of like, no one really has free will would make more

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sense.

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Sure.

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But there's, I mean, free will is already a completely fucked up conversation with the

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existence of the voice.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Without magic powers, period.

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Well, if the Ben and Jezeret can just force you to do something by speaking, then what

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existence is there of free will?

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Right.

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So if you ever be sure anyone is doing anything, if they're around a Ben and Jezeret and you

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know they can do that, then you can never trust anything that that person around them

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is doing.

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But if you see them doing it, they do seem to walk like robots whenever they're doing

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something that the voice told them to.

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It does feel that way.

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Yeah.

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There is a aesthetic, doot, doot, doot, doot, doot, to how they act.

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That was a big failing the Ben and Jezeret had whenever they created the voice.

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They forgot to do the thing where people didn't act.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Act natural.

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Act natural.

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Act like you didn't get the voice.

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You can tweak that over time.

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But yeah, that is a really challenging question.

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And I think on some levels, I'm not really prepared to answer a lot of it because the

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story still isn't fucking told.

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I thought by the end of this, I would have a much clearer picture of a lot of stuff.

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And to some extent, I think I do.

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I think the political intrigue in a lot of it makes a lot more sense.

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A lot of that stuff is, well, one stage of it makes more sense.

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But then we're revealed that there's a whole nother level on top of it.

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Right, right.

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But you got the idea that whenever Harkonnen was like, the emperor's coming, you got the

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idea that he sent that message to all the other great houses.

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If he's coming for us, then we have to get them to fight on our side against the emperor.

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There was that little moment of trying to explain the political balance.

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Yes.

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I still don't fully understand it, but I understand that that layer exists.

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That there is some sort of check on power of the emperor that is the alliance of these

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great houses.

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But at the same time, the emperor ostensibly rules over the great houses and everything.

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But ultimately, that is a Trump card that Harkonnen is trying to pull out.

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Right.

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I mean, part of the political intrigue behind that is from actual, what would I say?

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Any dictator doesn't lead as a dictator.

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There is a certain amount of- The aristocracy.

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Yeah, just a fewer number of people you have to try and convince to do shit.

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You know?

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Instead of trying to- Or oligarchs.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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You're going to have to get this person who has enough power to cause at least a problem

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for you to work with you without being like, if you don't, I'll kill your family.

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Now what I want to understand, maybe I don't, maybe it's too complicated, but what is that

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for each of these houses?

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I get that one of them, whether it's Harkonnen or Atreides, well, I guess Atreides, they

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can fight really well because of the weirding way.

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And then also both of them are involved with Arrakis and the spice.

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But there are other houses and I don't know what they do.

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I mean, unfortunately I would say this is where we get into kind of the big problem

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with sci-fi during this time period.

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This is where- You're paid by the word.

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Well, that is a huge problem, but second only to the harsh eugenicism and fascism that runs

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through the core of most of this.

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But you know, this is where we get the, this is the planet that does this.

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This is the planet that does this.

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This planet is where we get gemstones from.

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This planet is where we get our stuff from.

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So every great house has essentially a monopoly on like one kind of trade group thing.

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And then if you're a economic group that has a monopoly on that.

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So essentially every aspect of the political sphere is like this idea of if you have an

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economic monopoly on one thing that everybody wants, then you have enough power to influence

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everything.

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Right.

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Okay.

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That makes sense.

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I mean, it doesn't make sense.

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It wouldn't work, but it makes sense.

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Right.

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Right.

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Right.

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It's not like a- It makes enough sense for sci-fi.

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Yes.

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That was a great way of putting it.

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Close enough for jazz.

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Sensible enough for sci-fi.

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Good enough.

Unknown Speaker (00:12:59.120)

Good enough.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:00.120)

So I, overall, I'll just give you, I guess, a broad-

Unknown Speaker (00:13:03.720)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:04.720)

Tell me how you liked the movie.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:05.720)

I thought it was good in the same way that I thought the first one was good, but it did

Unknown Speaker (00:13:09.320)

in a way that the first one didn't, I felt the length more.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:12.600)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:13.600)

I will say that for sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:14.600)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:15.600)

And maybe it's just that 15-minute difference, but whatever it was, it was like, this is

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long.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:20.159)

Oh, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:21.240)

What dragged for you?

Unknown Speaker (00:13:22.240)

I don't know if anything really dragged, but it just, you could feel that it was two hours

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and 45 minutes.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:27.360)

This is a very long time.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:29.159)

Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:30.159)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:31.159)

Which I don't know if it's a failing of the movie, because it's not like at any point

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I wanted to turn it off or anything.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:34.759)

Sure, sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:35.759)

It was just, ooh, ooh, and I think that that is a dynamic that is underappreciated for

Unknown Speaker (00:13:42.519)

me because I don't watch a lot of movies, is that the context that you're watching it

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in really matters.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:49.159)

Maybe you're a little more tired that day, and that's going to affect how you see the

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movie.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:53.320)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:54.320)

And maybe that's all it was.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:55.320)

Maybe I was just more tired, and boy, you could feel that length.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:57.279)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:58.279)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:13:59.279)

When I watched it again, let's see, it was my third time watching part two, and I think

Unknown Speaker (00:14:07.759)

I was at the point where I was like, this is now something that's on while I'm working.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:12.440)

You know what I mean?

Unknown Speaker (00:14:13.440)

Because you've seen it enough.

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You know it enough.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:15.440)

The first couple of times, and I know the story, I do that, and so the first couple

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of times I'm watching the movie looking for stuff, and then after that, it's like, this

Unknown Speaker (00:14:22.679)

is an enjoyable thing, and I know where I'm going to jump in and where I'm jumping out

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and where I have to focus and not.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:28.039)

So yeah, I guess I think that's the same feeling in a way, except without the obligation to

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like stay through it.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:36.759)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:37.759)

If you were watching it and it was feeling long, you would instinctively have been like,

Unknown Speaker (00:14:41.919)

okay, well, I'll just go over here for a second and then go back to it.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:45.679)

Right?

Unknown Speaker (00:14:46.679)

That's how I tend to watch a lot of TV.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:48.919)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:49.919)

You know?

Unknown Speaker (00:14:50.919)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:51.919)

I think that we have a pretty clear layers of onion thing going on.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:58.200)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:14:59.200)

With the first movie, you get a broad introduction to the Harkonnens and the Atreides and Arrakis.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:06.799)

Then there's teasing of the Fremen, there's teasing of other things that exist in the

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world.

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And then in the second movie, you get the next layer of the onion where you get the

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emperor comes in, you get more of the Fremen are fleshed out and it becomes more like these

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are the characters, this is the cast of this movie as opposed to the cast of the first

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one.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:28.000)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:29.000)

And then, you know, watching this, it's like you set it up for the exact same thing.

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Like the great houses are going to be the cast of the next movie.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:37.679)

And not to say it's formulaic, but it's infuriating because you didn't let me know anything about

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those things that are gonna be in the next movie.

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And apparently that's now more important because of the war that was in this movie is done.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:53.720)

But the bigger war that is to come apparently involves players that I don't even know.

Unknown Speaker (00:15:59.159)

Oh, so many.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:00.679)

That's kind of frustrating.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:01.679)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:02.679)

It's going to last a long time too.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:03.679)

Oh yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:04.679)

Oh, so long.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:05.679)

And then that guy's going to turn into a worm apparently.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:08.679)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:09.679)

That's three books away.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:11.000)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:12.000)

You got a ways to go before you get there.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:14.080)

First, that's our main guy's son.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:16.679)

We're not even there yet.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:17.679)

I get that.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:18.679)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:19.679)

I will say that I'm invested enough that when the next one comes out, I'll see it.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:25.100)

I'm interested to see if they'll make a next one.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:27.080)

They have to.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:28.080)

Well, okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:29.080)

She's made a lot of money.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:31.799)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:32.799)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:33.799)

Now, but here's where we get into the problems of Dune.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:37.960)

Dune, the book, the first book is a movie book.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:42.799)

It's a very, stuff happens.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:45.399)

What's the end of the first book?

Unknown Speaker (00:16:47.399)

The end of the first book is what you saw.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:49.120)

Oh, okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:50.120)

This is all just the first book?

Unknown Speaker (00:16:51.120)

It is.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:52.120)

It is the returning of water.

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But the water doesn't come back at the end of the Villanueva one.

Unknown Speaker (00:16:58.240)

In the Villanueva one, it doesn't come back, but it's not really important to the story,

Unknown Speaker (00:17:03.120)

honestly.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:04.119)

And it's really kind of changed, it's important, but also it's thrown away as something that

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matters.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:09.880)

It's very important in the 84 one.

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Super important in the 84 one.

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Super important in the first book.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:14.079)

But then as the story goes on, it's kind of like, oh, this was a bad idea, actually.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:17.880)

This kind of destroys the whole point of the planet, it's all about spice.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:21.359)

And then later, so now that it's-

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Can't have liquid spice?

Unknown Speaker (00:17:24.319)

You can't have liquid spice because the spice is the worms.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:27.279)

So the worms need the desert.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:29.140)

And if you remove the desert, then you don't have the spice.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:32.240)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:33.240)

Kind of roach yourself into a corner on that one.

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He gets out of it.

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But that is what the Fremen want.

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They want a green world that they used to have.

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They don't want the spice.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:43.359)

They aren't particularly interested in the spice.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:45.640)

No, it's ruined their lives.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:47.079)

It's made all these weirdo white people come from outer space to fucking murder them all

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day.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:52.279)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:53.279)

So in their interest, fucking let it rain.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:55.640)

Yeah, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:56.640)

Everybody else can't have that rain.

Unknown Speaker (00:17:58.559)

No, absolutely not.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:00.519)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:01.519)

So as far as the, what would I say?

Unknown Speaker (00:18:05.660)

As far as this section of the book, this is where we get into Paul wrestling with the

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idea of being the Messiah.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:13.839)

So he's both.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:15.640)

He's all over the place.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:16.640)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:17.640)

Well, he's both the manufactured Messiah that the Bene Gesserit have lied to everybody about,

Unknown Speaker (00:18:21.880)

but also he's the real one that they've genetically created through lying to everybody about.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:26.599)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:27.599)

But also can he choose not to be one?

Unknown Speaker (00:18:30.640)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:31.640)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:32.640)

Hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:18:33.640)

It.

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He tries hard not to see that's, that's something that I have mixed feelings about as far as

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the presentation of the movie goes, because at the beginning there is a very real cynicism

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that he is coming with that is I need to convince the nonbelievers, you know, and then he gives

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up on that almost immediately after Jessica drinks the water.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:00.200)

And he's like, she's pulling a Bene Gesserit trick.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:02.359)

They know how to suppress poison.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:03.559)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:04.559)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:05.559)

This is all nonsense.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:06.559)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:07.559)

Works against his own interests and then comes around to being like, fuck it.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:10.519)

I'll be the Messiah.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:11.519)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:12.519)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:13.519)

You got to do what you got to do.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:14.519)

It's very, I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:15.519)

That path seemed very strange to me.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:18.039)

There is some of that.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:19.039)

It's struggle, but it wasn't, it wasn't as coherent maybe as I wanted it to be.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:23.559)

See, this is where, and I, you're, you're right about that.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:26.839)

This would make more sense in the length of time of the book.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:30.519)

This period of time is like five years.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:33.380)

So the, you know, the voice that Jessica's hearing, the unborn baby.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:37.920)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:38.920)

That's St. Alia of the knife, which is a great name.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:41.779)

No reason for that name, but I love that name.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:45.160)

Now let me say this about that.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:47.480)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:48.480)

I appreciated that she didn't turn into a child that knew everything.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:53.359)

That is true.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:54.359)

Because in hindsight, an 84 version, that's silly.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:57.279)

That is silly.

Unknown Speaker (00:19:58.559)

Visually on screen, that is a bit silly.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:01.220)

And so having it be an embodied voice from the womb and then the person that Paul can

Unknown Speaker (00:20:09.079)

see in his dreams.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:10.079)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:11.079)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:12.079)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:13.079)

Makes more sense.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:14.079)

Way more sense.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:15.079)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:16.079)

Much better.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:17.079)

But I'm sorry.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:18.079)

You said it was five years.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:19.079)

No, in the book you're like, oh, it's a, it's a child and it's just really, really smart.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:20.440)

And then, or like, you know, has the memories of or whatever.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:23.799)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:24.799)

But in the movie it's like, oh, you guys really shouldn't have done that.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:27.960)

The 84 one.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:28.960)

It's strange.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:29.960)

You shouldn't have done that.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:30.960)

Um, no.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:31.960)

So the Jordan was just gesticulating and he threw his pen across the room across the room.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:38.920)

Good thing there's another one to spin around with.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:41.319)

Um, uh, no.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:42.940)

So over that length of time, like four or five years, Jessica is becoming, they're becoming

Unknown Speaker (00:20:49.420)

part of the siege, you know, they're just part of the community.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:52.960)

And during this time period, uh, uh, you know, Paul's having a pretty good time all, all

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things considered.

Unknown Speaker (00:20:59.680)

Hanging out with Johnny.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:00.680)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:01.680)

He's, he's living a life.

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Fighting around with Stilgar.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:03.680)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:04.680)

That he wants to live.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:05.680)

Like for his entire life, he's been growing, growing up in this sheltered bullshit, trained

Unknown Speaker (00:21:09.900)

in a weird way, stuck with doing everything that all these rules are supposed to do.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:14.519)

And now he's finally free.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:15.980)

He's got borderline infinite power.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:18.079)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:19.079)

He's an unstoppable fighter, all this cool stuff.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:22.200)

Uh, so at this point in time, he's kind of living his best life.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:27.400)

Why would you want to go South?

Unknown Speaker (00:21:28.839)

Why would you want to become the Messiah?

Unknown Speaker (00:21:30.759)

You're having a grand old time.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:32.240)

As far as the hero's journey, this is the like, I don't want to become an adult.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:36.440)

Fuck that.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:37.859)

But that's, see, that's, that's something that, that is interesting because the, the,

Unknown Speaker (00:21:42.200)

I don't want to be an adult is not at all how it feels.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:45.039)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:46.039)

It feels like I'm going to kill a ton of people if I end up doing this.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:48.839)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:49.839)

And I can't do it.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:50.839)

But then he gives up on that, not doing it and deciding to go South pretty quickly.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:54.880)

Well, there is the other elements that you, we brought up earlier.

Unknown Speaker (00:21:59.920)

If he doesn't, when he does, then he'll die.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:03.400)

Mm hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:04.400)

Every, it's like, why, what do you mean why?

Unknown Speaker (00:22:07.720)

Well he's already being hunted.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:08.720)

The Harkonnens want him dead because regardless of whether or not he's known as Paul Atreides

Unknown Speaker (00:22:13.839)

yet, he's Muad'Dib and he's in the Fadaken.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:16.920)

So they're, they're going around fucking everybody up.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:19.920)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:20.920)

Harkonnens getting wrecked.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:21.920)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:22.920)

And they destroy the town, they blow up the.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:25.279)

Well the Harkonnens then after Fade Rotha is given control of Arrakis, boy, this scene

Unknown Speaker (00:22:32.279)

was stupid.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:33.279)

Scorched earth.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:34.279)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:35.279)

He's like, oh, you fired a bunch of missiles.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:37.519)

Brilliant.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:38.519)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:39.519)

Like, oh my God.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:40.519)

That was, that was a strange, like, oh, we didn't think of that before.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:41.960)

We hadn't thought of blowing them up with all of our power.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:44.599)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:45.599)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:46.599)

But what you're saying is you're trying to make him look more bloodthirsty and ruthless

Unknown Speaker (00:22:51.119)

and I think that succeeds, but that was kind of a silly, wait, Batista never thought of

Unknown Speaker (00:22:55.720)

this?

Unknown Speaker (00:22:56.720)

The guy who was famous for like murder guys all the time didn't think, let's blow it up.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:02.640)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:03.640)

Now that being said, Austin Butler, so much scarier than Sting.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:09.720)

What?

Unknown Speaker (00:23:10.720)

How?

Unknown Speaker (00:23:11.720)

How so?

Unknown Speaker (00:23:13.079)

But in the lack of at all hair, the black and white aspects, the whole thing.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:20.240)

Quite a better version of that character, I would say.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:26.200)

He seems menacing, seems scary.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:29.079)

Seems like, you know, when the whole thing ultimately comes down to a knife fight between

Unknown Speaker (00:23:34.119)

him and Paul, when it's Sting, I don't buy it.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:38.599)

Stupid.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:39.599)

In this case, I was like, he's a credible threat.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:41.640)

He's a credible opponent.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:44.599)

And so I think that was an upgrade.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:47.779)

And they did a great job of establishing that in the arena fight, which is one of the more

Unknown Speaker (00:23:54.200)

important scenes from the book, wherein you've got this idea that the movie kind of makes

Unknown Speaker (00:24:01.000)

ambiguous, like, oh, he was trying to kill him.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:04.680)

And then in Skarsgård's performance, you kind of get the idea that, no, this was supposed

Unknown Speaker (00:24:09.039)

to be a test.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:10.039)

Yeah, I took that similarly to the Stilgar, like, you can rise to this occasion or you'll

Unknown Speaker (00:24:18.720)

die and either way it'll be fine.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:20.359)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:21.359)

You can either fight this person who's not drugged and succeed and you'll become a hero

Unknown Speaker (00:24:26.240)

and it'll be great, or you'll die and then you're not my problem anymore.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:29.920)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:30.920)

And then it's like, why would I give Arrakis to somebody who can't even win a fight against

Unknown Speaker (00:24:34.440)

a guy who's not drugged, you know?

Unknown Speaker (00:24:36.759)

There's definitely that.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:39.160)

But by doing this, by putting this whole thing, and then you have Princess Fenring, who is

Unknown Speaker (00:24:44.759)

the woman who seduces Feyd-Rotha after the fight.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:47.599)

Puts his hand in the pain box.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:49.079)

You got it.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:50.640)

Then she's, I guess, part of the Bene Gesserit breathing program.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:57.640)

So she's actually related to Paul also.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:01.319)

She has to be.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:02.319)

They're all inbred by like one generation.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:05.220)

And that's how you get a messiah.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:07.599)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:08.599)

Because of the magic powers or something.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:10.160)

People didn't think about that.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:11.400)

They were like, oh, there's a lot of downsides.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:13.160)

Agreed.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:14.160)

But you forgot about magic powers.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:15.480)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:16.480)

Um.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:17.480)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:18.480)

So what happens now with that princess or whoever who has gotten pregnant by Feyd-Rotha?

Unknown Speaker (00:25:28.480)

So she has.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:29.480)

Because he's no longer, he's dead at the end.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:31.839)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:32.839)

So she has.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:33.839)

There's no use for that child.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:34.839)

No, no, no, no.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:35.839)

It's a potential quiz out of Todorak.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:36.839)

But we already have him.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:37.839)

We don't have the right one.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:38.839)

Ah, shit.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:39.839)

We don't have the good one.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:40.839)

Oh, no.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:41.839)

The good one was next generation.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:42.839)

The good one was the one that they could control.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:44.599)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:45.599)

Or at least the one that was supposed to be there.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:48.119)

The one that wasn't a shock.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:50.039)

You know?

Unknown Speaker (00:25:51.039)

That maybe the real problem the whole time is Gaius Mohiam was like, this wasn't what

Unknown Speaker (00:25:57.000)

I was expecting.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:58.559)

Who's that?

Unknown Speaker (00:25:59.559)

That's the lady who's, that's the highest forever mother.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:01.720)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:02.720)

That's the lady who puts Paul's hand in the box.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:04.079)

I see.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:05.079)

I see.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:06.079)

So that's another thing.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:07.079)

Gaius is trying to kill Paul from the moment Paul is born.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:09.920)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:10.920)

But because she's a benedict.

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She's terrible at it.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:13.480)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:14.480)

Why?

Unknown Speaker (00:26:15.480)

Because they're infinitely powerful and they're always so easy to beat.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:18.960)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:19.960)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:20.960)

The Reverend Mother's every single scheme they ever do is successful, except for the

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ones that happen in the plot of every book.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:27.720)

It's so wild.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:28.720)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:29.720)

Well, now you've opened this can of worms up.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:31.400)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:32.400)

And this is where we will need to probably spend the rest of the time we're talking.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:35.400)

I expected it to be.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:36.400)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:37.400)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:38.400)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:39.400)

So, as the plot goes on.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:41.079)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:42.079)

I understand what the emperor wants.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:45.240)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:46.240)

I get it.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:47.240)

He has an investment in controlling spice because inter, interplanetary travel requires

Unknown Speaker (00:26:54.119)

it and there's an economy and all that stuff.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:56.759)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:57.759)

He could not control House Atreides.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:59.559)

So he betrayed them with House Harkonnen and did this conspiracy.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:04.079)

And now he knows that Paul is alive and is Muad'Dib and has to come try and solve this

Unknown Speaker (00:27:10.279)

fucking problem on his own.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:11.599)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:12.599)

Because the Harkonnens can't take care of it.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:14.000)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:15.000)

So this all makes sense.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:16.279)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:17.279)

What the Harkonnens want makes sense.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:21.559)

What the Atreides House makes, what they want makes sense.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:25.000)

In theory, I assume, but I don't know these characters, what the other great houses want

Unknown Speaker (00:27:30.319)

makes sense.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:31.599)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:32.599)

But I don't get what the Bene Gesserit are up to.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:35.039)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:36.039)

I don't know what their end game is.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:38.160)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:39.160)

Everyone else's end game makes sense.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:41.000)

There's like these, these pieces and chess pieces that are being put in play.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:46.019)

And I understand that the Bene Gesserit are behind everything and influencing everybody.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:50.900)

They were responsible for advising the emperor to abandon or betray House Atreides.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:56.759)

I get that they're the puppet masters and everything, but I don't get what they want.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:02.039)

Well.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:03.039)

I get what the Fremen want.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:05.519)

So I get what all sides want, except this group.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:10.160)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:12.200)

That's made clear, maybe, in Chapter House, dude, which is like book six or five.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:21.079)

I can't even remember anymore.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:23.680)

But the god emperor, who is Deek Ledu II, Paul Atreides' son, he's two books from now.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:31.799)

He's the one who becomes a worm.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:33.559)

He's the one who becomes a worm.

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He essentially is God.

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So he lives forever, can see the future and the past, et cetera, et cetera.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:41.400)

But so can Paul, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:28:42.400)

He can see the future and the past.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:43.400)

Paul can see the future and the past.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:46.559)

The idea being this, unfortunately, if we get this guy, then, and then we'll stop conflict

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forever.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:57.059)

There will be no more war.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:58.359)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:59.359)

A war to end wars.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:00.359)

Well, more like if we genetically engineer God, then God will take care of it.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:05.319)

I guess.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:06.319)

So this is what they're after.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:11.160)

Nominally, yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:13.240)

I think what's going on with the Bene Gesserit is unfortunate, because if you have a super

Unknown Speaker (00:29:19.640)

powerful magic powered syndicate that controls everything from behind the shadows, sooner

Unknown Speaker (00:29:25.779)

or later, you're going to have to explain why it is everything's not going the exact

Unknown Speaker (00:29:29.099)

same way since one of them is at everybody's house.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:32.240)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:33.240)

And they have the ability to override your free will.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:35.640)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:36.640)

And they can talk to each other.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:37.640)

They can just send each other.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:38.640)

They can talk.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:39.640)

They can send a phone message.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:40.640)

They seem to be able to also telepathically connect.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:42.480)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:43.480)

So all kinds of magic powers.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:44.839)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:45.839)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:46.839)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:47.839)

So there are factions, of course, within the deep state.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:51.000)

Oh, man.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:52.000)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:53.000)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:54.000)

But this is, and this is another one of those great sci-fi writers in this time period thing

Unknown Speaker (00:29:58.039)

of like, this is a man who really wants to compliment women by letting you know that

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all women are conniving liars who are controlling you from behind the scenes, and the only way

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to be free is to throw off their shackles.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:12.160)

Not at all something that Frank Herbert thought a lot.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:14.920)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:15.920)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:16.920)

I could definitely say that's of the time and unfortunate, but I'm trying to tease out

Unknown Speaker (00:30:26.359)

the thread here.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:27.359)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:28.359)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:29.359)

So you have this entire world that is all political.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:34.079)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:35.079)

Like, this is all about economies and the spice.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:39.559)

People are not important.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:40.900)

If you're not a main character, you don't exist.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:42.920)

But they also have really concrete motives and motivations.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:49.079)

Like there is abstract power, and then there is resources that they are all interested

Unknown Speaker (00:30:56.980)

in.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:57.980)

The Bene Gesserit are actually mystical motivated.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:04.119)

Like they are actually trying to bring in a messiah to end all war.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:10.519)

So on some level, they have what they believe to be a benevolent end goal that they are

Unknown Speaker (00:31:19.920)

working towards.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:20.920)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:21.920)

I don't, I don't.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:24.720)

The thing that happens-

Unknown Speaker (00:31:26.160)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:27.160)

But here's the problem.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:28.160)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:29.160)

Aha.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:30.160)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:31.160)

Aha.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:32.160)

What do we got?

Unknown Speaker (00:31:33.160)

What do we got here?

Unknown Speaker (00:31:34.160)

Is this a moral question?

Unknown Speaker (00:31:35.160)

The means by which the Bene Gesserit are trying to bring about this messiah is by implanting

Unknown Speaker (00:31:41.160)

false stories of a messiah in other people, except ultimately it will lead to a real messiah.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:49.200)

Well, okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:50.680)

So there's two parts of this.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:53.420)

The first part is the Missionaria Protectiva is the Bene Gesserit arm that seeds the general

Unknown Speaker (00:32:00.079)

messiah kind of religion, which is less about the messiah and more about if a Bene Gesserit

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shows up, you should treat her like she's a witch that's got superpowers.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:08.839)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:09.839)

And then that way-

Unknown Speaker (00:32:10.839)

But she is.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:11.839)

Well, exactly.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:12.839)

I mean, witch language aside, did you have superpowers?

Unknown Speaker (00:32:15.640)

But at the same time, if you find a witch with superpowers, there's a good chance that

Unknown Speaker (00:32:21.059)

thousands of people will probably murder that witch unless there's a religion in place to

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protect them in advance.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:26.680)

True.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:27.680)

It's a risky run.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:28.680)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:29.680)

That's the idea.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:30.680)

So they created this whole propaganda program and throughout all of the galaxy, there are

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variations on the exact same thing.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:37.339)

But they have a lot of the same themes, I imagine.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:39.160)

They have the exact same kind of general-

Unknown Speaker (00:32:40.799)

The Khazan al-Gaib will come because that's what the Bene Gesserit will send somebody

Unknown Speaker (00:32:46.200)

to the planet who will fulfill the prophecy of the voice from outside or whatever.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:51.980)

Which is a really good twin theme, the theme of if something is a prophecy, then it will

Unknown Speaker (00:33:00.579)

happen.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:02.259)

But it hasn't happened yet, so it has to happen somehow.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:05.700)

But it's only going to happen because people are making it happen.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:08.740)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:09.740)

Which I think is great until there's magic powers.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:13.220)

Yeah, that is the issue.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:15.119)

That is the issue.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:16.119)

The Khazan magic powers kind of indicate that all this is true.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:19.700)

It is true.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:20.700)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:21.700)

Well, I mean, but that's the thing, like, okay, so what they're not really wrestling

Unknown Speaker (00:33:27.180)

with or what isn't really wrestled with is if Paul Atreides, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:33:32.460)

If the Kwisatz Haderach, the idea is they can see into the future and they can see into

Unknown Speaker (00:33:37.759)

the past and any action or motion they take or any thought they have will lead them to

Unknown Speaker (00:33:43.500)

whichever one they choose.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:45.519)

So the idea is we have now removed all agency from the entire human race and given it to

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this guy, which is a weird way of looking at God.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:59.660)

And also I think the correct one.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:02.539)

As a way of absolving all of us of our responsibility for anything.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:07.640)

If we create God, then God is the one who is responsible for everything.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:12.300)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:13.300)

Now, hold on.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:14.300)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:15.300)

Because I don't understand exactly what's so different between the understanding of

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the past that Jessica gets and what Paul gets.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:25.820)

So I know that no man has ever gotten before.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:29.139)

I understand that.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:30.139)

Well, this is, I mean, it's kind of funny that we heard, well, it comes back to, not

Unknown Speaker (00:34:37.340)

to date this, but there was the episode where we were talking about the doula and they were

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like, you know, because they were one body, because they were one body at one point.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:47.860)

And it's essentially that.

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It's like, because women are all one body, every woman is born with every egg she's ever

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going to have.

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So there's three generations, you know, whatever, inside the same body at one point in time.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:01.059)

So a reverend mother can connect to every woman dating back all the way to primordial

Unknown Speaker (00:35:06.340)

Eve.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:07.940)

That's the power of the Bene Gesserit.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:09.780)

Well, in that line?

Unknown Speaker (00:35:11.739)

In that line.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:12.739)

But not branching off that line.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:14.119)

Not branching off that line.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:15.340)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:16.340)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:17.340)

But the Kwisatz Haderach can do that for dudes and dudes can't do that because dudes aren't

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related to anybody.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:22.900)

They're just dicks.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:24.260)

So that's good.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:25.260)

That goes all over the place.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:26.260)

That goes all over the place.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:27.460)

That goes to women.

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That goes to men.

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That goes to everybody, everywhere.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:30.940)

He can see every future.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:32.260)

He can see every past.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:33.300)

He can do it all.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:34.300)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:35.300)

I can see how that gives a little bit of a different vision ish.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:39.980)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:40.980)

It is tough because if you've not fully fleshed out the idea of becoming God, then you're

Unknown Speaker (00:35:49.860)

kind of working on the level of becoming Jesus and not becoming God.

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So whenever you're reading the Messiah story of Dune, people kind of associate it with

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the Messiah story of Jesus, where you're like, this is the good guy.

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This is the guy who is going to free us, who's going to save us, who's going to do all kinds

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of stuff.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:08.539)

People aren't thinking about God, God, the guy who's like, yeah, there's a fucking hurricane

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thrown around.

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It's not you.

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You didn't do anything wrong.

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I'm just God.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:16.940)

I just make hurricanes sometimes, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:36:19.340)

So naturally, if you're looking at that, if you're staring down the barrel of being Jesus,

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you're thinking, ah, this might be pretty cool.

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And then you realize that, nope, it's going to be everything is my fault from then on

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forever.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:33.380)

And in fact, it was always my fault in the past because that's how time works.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:38.780)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:39.780)

Space time is one thing.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:40.880)

It's not like a thing that keeps getting made.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:43.219)

That is a tough pill to swallow.

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It's tough.

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Tough worm piss to swallow.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:49.860)

It is tough.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:50.860)

That's why it's, that's why the next movie might be a little bit harder to film because

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what happens at the end of this book and at the end of this movie is we go, okay, because

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Paul has to essentially take over the entire imperium in order to live.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:11.400)

If he doesn't, then somebody is going to kill him.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:14.739)

The Ben and Jez are going to kill him.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:16.579)

The Tylaxu are going to kill him.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:18.179)

The other houses are going to kill him.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:19.880)

He can only live longer if he is in charge of everything, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:37:25.940)

I guess, you know, like that's his only path.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:27.860)

There's no way for him to be like, okay, I'm going to move to a small, small city.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:32.059)

I could see a possibility of Obi-Wan Kenobi-ing.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:36.159)

Maybe just associate that because deserts.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:37.900)

I mean, I think the difference there is that Obi-Wan Kenobi was just a guy in the knighthood

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as opposed to being a former Duke.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:45.579)

You know what I mean?

Unknown Speaker (00:37:46.579)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:47.579)

Somebody who is of the royal lineage, who is supposed to be the king and who was raised

Unknown Speaker (00:37:51.739)

since he was born with a, like, maybe I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:56.099)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:57.099)

I feel like he could fight people off.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:58.940)

He could.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:59.940)

He's a good fighter.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:00.940)

He's a very good fighter.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:01.940)

He seems to be able to overcome every odd.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:03.659)

He can yell at people and make them do whatever he wants.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:06.179)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:07.179)

So, like, he doesn't really have to take power.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:08.980)

At no point in time.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:10.460)

He'd have a tough road and people probably trying constantly to kill him.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:13.780)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:14.780)

But he would probably kill all of them.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:16.099)

He'd probably beat everyone.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:17.099)

It would get annoying.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:18.099)

He's literally gone.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:19.099)

It would get annoying.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:20.099)

It would get really annoying.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:21.099)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:22.099)

But you could do it.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:23.099)

Theoretically, I suppose.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:24.099)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:25.099)

That's all I'm saying.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:26.099)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:27.099)

You know what's never addressed?

Unknown Speaker (00:38:28.099)

What's that?

Unknown Speaker (00:38:29.099)

At any point, as far as I'm aware, despite the voice being as good as it is and as powerful

Unknown Speaker (00:38:34.739)

as it is, at no point in time does anybody get a bullhorn and just really see how we

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can do.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:40.699)

Oh, like-

Unknown Speaker (00:38:41.699)

You know what I mean?

Unknown Speaker (00:38:42.699)

It always has to be one person.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:43.699)

It's always one-on-one.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:44.699)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:45.699)

It's never like, hey, I'm just going to stand up at this pulpit and we're going to see if

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everybody's going to remember fake shit today.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:49.380)

You know?

Unknown Speaker (00:38:50.380)

Nobody ever tries it.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:51.380)

Well, I'd say that's what Alex's innovation would be.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:53.619)

Absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:54.619)

If he had the voice.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:55.619)

If he had the voice.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:56.619)

He's a tyranny maker of one.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:57.619)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:58.619)

That idea of ancestral memories and stuff definitely felt more Infowars connected or

Unknown Speaker (00:39:04.500)

Alex's view of himself connected and the prophetic dreams.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:09.619)

There is a lot of Paul Atreides in his self-conception.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:13.980)

I can see a bit of that now that I've seen both of these.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:18.500)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:19.500)

And I'm sure it would be almost embarrassing if I read the book.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:23.860)

Probably.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:24.860)

Probably.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:25.860)

Thinking off the top of my head, yeah, probably.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:29.219)

There's not as much Infowars straight stuff that I was expecting when I watched it the

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second time.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:37.739)

In my head, whenever I had the idea that maybe we should do this little thing, in my head

Unknown Speaker (00:39:42.380)

you were going to be like, oh, here's some stuff that I haven't even told you that Alex

Unknown Speaker (00:39:46.099)

does from parts of the show that I didn't even... You listen to the show and there's

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stuff that you listen to like a thousand times that was from Dune.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:55.139)

But because you weren't inundated with Dune in Dune and...

Unknown Speaker (00:39:59.179)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:00.179)

You know what I mean?

Unknown Speaker (00:40:01.179)

That I wouldn't have recognized.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:02.179)

That you wouldn't have been recognized.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:03.179)

I think it's honestly more just like that is a huge thing, the ancestral memory and

Unknown Speaker (00:40:09.099)

stuff like that and being able to tell the future.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:11.820)

It is very parallel and the fact that I didn't know that before is kind of like, oh, that's

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a huge blind spot.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:20.820)

Yeah.

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And then Alex talks constantly about when he was a kid in Dallas, how he would ride

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worms.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:28.659)

And I never picked up that that was related.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:35.239)

It's tough.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:37.460)

It's tough to engage the text too much as looking for all of that while still trying

Unknown Speaker (00:40:43.059)

to take it in.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:44.059)

Sure, sure, sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:45.059)

Because I wanted to understand what I was seeing too.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:47.340)

Totally, totally.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:48.340)

I'm not admonishing you for not having a thousand examples of something that probably doesn't

Unknown Speaker (00:40:52.900)

exist.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:53.900)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:54.900)

There's a lot of thematic stuff, but it's not as... He legitimately directly believes

Unknown Speaker (00:41:01.099)

like childhood's end is real and stuff like that.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:03.780)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:04.780)

Whereas this, he just sort of has given himself Paul's powers.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:07.340)

It does feel like he believes he is the Kwisatz Haderach.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:10.820)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:11.820)

In a lot of ways, he feels like... But I don't know how you could not.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:18.260)

If you're a narcissist, these books are for you.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:23.059)

Regardless of... And how do I put it?

Unknown Speaker (00:41:28.659)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:29.659)

It is viewed as a valor, as a positive for Paul to be like, I am not the Messiah.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:37.920)

It's not me.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:38.920)

No big deal.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:40.059)

That's cool.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:41.059)

You shouldn't be the person who's like, I am the Messiah.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:43.500)

That's creepy.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:44.500)

You don't want to pay attention to that guy.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:45.739)

But then he does.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:46.739)

But if you are the Messiah, then everything is about you.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:52.019)

So like just the entire world is about you.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:57.019)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:58.019)

You're the most important person in the world.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:00.139)

And if you're a narcissist, that feels like, okay, sure, everybody always tells me that

Unknown Speaker (00:42:05.519)

I'm not the most important person in the world, but they said that to Paul.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:09.460)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:10.460)

And the humility gets you nowhere when the world is actually about you.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:14.980)

You just got to take control of things.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:16.900)

If I'm the Messiah, then I got to walk into that room and I got to be like...

Unknown Speaker (00:42:21.500)

And I've got to begrudgingly accept... Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:25.260)

You can't do it.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:26.260)

You can't want it.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:27.260)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:28.260)

Wanting it makes you a bad person.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:29.900)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:30.900)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:31.900)

I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:33.619)

I was surprised at how good Shalomai did with the yelling scenes.

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Whenever Stilgar is like, you got to kill me and then you can take my place and really

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talk.

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These are our rules.

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And then he was like, ah, fuck you.

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A bit in the cage.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:47.739)

There was definitely that.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:48.739)

I noticed it in the first one and there was a bit more.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:52.460)

There's some pretty cagey vibes out of that Shalomai.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:56.300)

You got to get big.

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You got to yell big.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:59.019)

That was tough to do and I respect it.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:01.420)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:02.420)

I thought he did fine.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:05.699)

I thought that his character felt more full in the first one.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:11.059)

Maybe, I would imagine the assignment on the second one is a lot harder.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:17.139)

The complexity of what you're probably trying to convey, I might have missed a little bit

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of it.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:22.699)

But I still think he did a great job.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:23.860)

Zendaya was great.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:24.860)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:25.860)

Avir Badem was great.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:26.860)

I can't remember who played Jessica.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:29.340)

Rebecca Ferguson.

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Is that right?

Unknown Speaker (00:43:31.340)

That's right.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:32.340)

She was great.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:33.340)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:34.340)

She was great.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:35.340)

Jessica was great.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:36.340)

Austin Butler was great.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:37.340)

He was great.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:38.340)

Skarsgard was great.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:39.340)

Batista.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:40.340)

No, I agree.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:41.940)

I think he's fine.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:43.659)

James Brolin was great.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:44.780)

Whatever everyone's talking about Batista being the best actor that's come out of wrestling,

Unknown Speaker (00:43:49.980)

I don't think it's based on Dune.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:51.860)

And I don't think that's his fault.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:52.860)

I think he's playing this role fine.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:54.460)

I just don't think that there's a lot in the role.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:57.059)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:58.059)

I'm going to throw it out to you.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:59.059)

Blade Runner 2049 is why.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:01.059)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:05.300)

If you put little tiny glasses on Dave Bautista, because I think M. Night Shyamalan did it

Unknown Speaker (00:44:09.980)

too.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:10.980)

If you put little tiny glasses on him, you're like, holy shit, this guy might be amazing.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:13.820)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:14.820)

You just put tiny glasses on him, Dave Bautista, and you're like, this man is an actor.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:17.820)

I will reserve judgment.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:20.260)

Just take a look at a picture of him with tiny glasses.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:22.260)

You're like, I bet this man is loved with peace.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:24.579)

Also slight correction, he's not that old, but I always thought he was much older because

Unknown Speaker (00:44:29.480)

he was a grandfather at 40.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:31.860)

So he was a wrestling grandpa, and that made me think he was a bit older than he was, but

Unknown Speaker (00:44:37.219)

he's not really old.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:38.699)

I may have overstated that on the last episode as I Googled it.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:43.739)

No, it's okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:47.739)

One thing that I thought, okay, the bagpipes took me out of the last one a tiny bit.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:53.260)

They did.

Unknown Speaker (00:44:54.260)

Not to the point where I think it's a bad movie or anything like that, but there was

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another moment like that in this one.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:00.139)

And that was when Stilgar is talking about the dangers of the desert, and he tells him

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to watch out for trapdoor spiders.

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And to me, why are there trapdoor spiders there?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:11.139)

Because there's trapdoor spiders everywhere.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:13.300)

Why are they called that?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:15.099)

Because it's an ornatrapdoorspider-thopter.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:17.219)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:19.219)

I feel like those exist on Earth, and this would have to imply that they were somehow

Unknown Speaker (00:45:25.980)

brought from Earth or that they evolved organically on Arrakis, and they decided to call them

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trapdoor spiders as well.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:36.980)

It made me a little bit, come on, give it a different name.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:39.900)

That's one of my favorite things about sci-fi period, is just half the time you're like,

Unknown Speaker (00:45:46.500)

oh, it's a Jupiterian space spider, and the other half of the time it's, oh, it's a scorpion.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:51.539)

It's a daddy long legs.

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From Arizona.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:53.539)

Wait, you called them that?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:54.539)

What?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:55.539)

I'm sorry, what now?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:56.539)

Why?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:57.539)

They say, what, do you want me to come up with a name for everything?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:58.539)

Yes, it's your world.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:00.380)

In every universe, that is a daddy long legs.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:03.219)

It's just a truth of-

Unknown Speaker (00:46:04.820)

But, I mean, that was a great Douglas Adams joke, is that every civilization has developed

Unknown Speaker (00:46:10.900)

a drink called a gin and tonic.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:13.239)

It's spelled differently, but it's all pronounced gin and tonic for some reason.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:17.019)

All different drinks, but for whatever reason-

Unknown Speaker (00:46:19.139)

I guess if that is a joke in this, then I'll accept it.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:21.820)

It would be, but it's not.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:22.820)

If it's a trapdoor spider joke.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:24.420)

If it's a trapdoor spider joke, it would be a good joke.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:28.460)

I still don't think I understand what the Bene Gesserit want.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:31.340)

The Bene Gesserit, so what's actually interesting about this question is that this is maybe

Unknown Speaker (00:46:38.820)

the moral question of the entire series.

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If you want a world without conflict, a world without war, if you want to end people fighting

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each other, what are you doing?

Unknown Speaker (00:46:52.059)

Are you domesticating people?

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Are you removing their ability to fight?

Unknown Speaker (00:46:57.400)

Are you saying we shouldn't fight?

Unknown Speaker (00:46:59.579)

Are you convincing people not to fight, or are you forcing them not to fight?

Unknown Speaker (00:47:03.619)

And if you're forcing people not to fight, you're the bad guy.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:08.340)

You're creating something of such force that people are afraid to ever fight again, lest

Unknown Speaker (00:47:14.199)

you bring the ire of that thing.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:17.400)

And that's just peace by terror.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:20.940)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:21.940)

So then their idea is we're going to breed it out of people.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:26.539)

Except not really.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:27.539)

No.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:28.539)

Because that would be stupid.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:29.980)

They're going to breed the ultimate weapon.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:32.699)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:33.699)

And then he's going to do it.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:34.699)

I mean, it's crazy.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:35.699)

Have a god as a weapon.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:36.699)

Yeah, essentially.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:37.820)

They're trying to make a god because their conception of god is similar to themselves.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:46.139)

Because we can see through the past, we kind of get the idea of what's going on.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:49.619)

We have the shape of the future.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:52.460)

What actually happens is if you have somebody who is existing in all times, past, present

Unknown Speaker (00:47:58.780)

and future, simultaneously, regardless of whether or not they are even alive, the universe

Unknown Speaker (00:48:04.579)

is them.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:05.579)

It's their universe.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:07.980)

Even going backwards.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:09.539)

Because it had to be going backwards.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:11.139)

Because the only way this universe could exist is if they already existed to make this universe

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exist.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:16.380)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:17.380)

Worm.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:18.380)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:19.380)

That's the problem.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:20.380)

Yeah, I mean, I can agree with and get that.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:26.219)

And then I just want to retreat back to worm.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:28.420)

And you want to go back to worm.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:30.019)

That's why Dune Messiah will be a much more interesting book to see filmed.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:34.219)

Because it is not a fight.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:36.219)

There is not a big worm showing up.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:38.179)

Is there not a fight with the great houses?

Unknown Speaker (00:48:41.179)

Because that seemed to be what the...

Unknown Speaker (00:48:43.179)

Oh, my dude.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:44.179)

Skip it.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:45.179)

Oh.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:46.179)

Don't need it.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:47.179)

OK.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:48.179)

Next movie.

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Emperor.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:50.179)

Boom.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:51.179)

So.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:52.179)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:53.179)

I guess, I mean, I kind of am interested in spoilers.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:57.900)

So what happens?

Unknown Speaker (00:48:59.179)

You've got the emperor.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:00.179)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:01.179)

He comes down.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:02.179)

He's like, all right, you're cool.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:03.179)

You can marry my daughter.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:04.179)

This is fucking crazy.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:05.179)

This sucks.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:06.179)

You just killed that bald dude.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:07.179)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:08.179)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:09.179)

I fucked up.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:10.179)

I had a plan.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:11.179)

Didn't work out.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:12.179)

He did.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:13.179)

Now the great houses are there.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:14.179)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:15.179)

And they put out the call that Paul is ascending.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:16.420)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:17.420)

And they're like, nah.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:18.420)

I don't like it.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:19.420)

So then what?

Unknown Speaker (00:49:20.420)

So then, and this is...

Unknown Speaker (00:49:21.420)

Then Paul's got to wipe out the great houses, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:49:22.619)

You got it.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:23.820)

This is the part that I think is both the ultimate expression of the theme and also

Unknown Speaker (00:49:32.579)

the one that's wrong about everything, or that's been interpreted wrong.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:37.179)

I don't know how it would have...

Unknown Speaker (00:49:38.619)

That humans are wrong about everything.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:40.800)

So at the end of this, in order for Paul to survive, he's like, we got to do it.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:46.219)

We got to take over everybody.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:48.099)

So all of the Fremen, the millions and millions of Fremen, who have only ever lived in the

Unknown Speaker (00:49:53.219)

desert their entire lives, only ever fought the Harkonnen their entire lives, suddenly

Unknown Speaker (00:49:58.460)

get on spaceships, travel all throughout the galaxy, murdering people left and right, conquering

Unknown Speaker (00:50:04.820)

every fucking planet they can and killing everybody who gets in their way.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:08.980)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:09.980)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:10.980)

That's the holy war.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:11.980)

That's the holy war.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:12.980)

That was sort of implied in the...

Unknown Speaker (00:50:13.980)

Because that's the only way.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:14.980)

The only way for Paul to survive is if he becomes emperor, otherwise the other great

Unknown Speaker (00:50:18.900)

houses are going to kill him, or even the people who work with them are going to kill

Unknown Speaker (00:50:21.539)

him.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:22.539)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:23.539)

The only way for him to become emperor is if he takes over the other great houses, and

Unknown Speaker (00:50:26.219)

the only people who can do it for him are the Fremen.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:27.900)

Now, the Fremen don't know anybody.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:31.179)

They don't know anybody.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:32.739)

They don't know about these great houses, they don't know about any of this shit.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:35.980)

They were living there, and then these people showed up and started murdering them, and

Unknown Speaker (00:50:40.380)

then Paul, their messiah, is suddenly like, hey, let's leave this planet and murder everybody

Unknown Speaker (00:50:45.219)

else.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:46.739)

So I cannot die.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:48.739)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:49.739)

Because I'm God.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:52.980)

I do appreciate that at least Paul is not presented altruistically.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:57.699)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:58.699)

They do a better job of that, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:00.460)

There isn't a feeling that, granted he's like, yeah, I'd like you guys to be able to live

Unknown Speaker (00:51:07.119)

on your planet, but that's a side thing to the larger goal that I have, and I appreciate

Unknown Speaker (00:51:16.099)

that.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:17.099)

You're not left feeling like, yeah, Paul.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:21.059)

No, no, that's good.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:23.380)

You don't feel that throughout, too.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:26.619)

There's a menace to him and to Jessica, both of them, throughout the movie, and I think

Unknown Speaker (00:51:32.420)

that's probably a positive way to present what they're all about.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:36.179)

Yeah, they did, I mean, the criticism for so many of these stories is usually correct

Unknown Speaker (00:51:42.420)

of like, this is the colonizer narrative, and you're, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:46.500)

But it is.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:47.500)

It is the colonizer narrative, but Frank is kind of pointing out like-

Unknown Speaker (00:51:51.420)

Are you on first name basis with him?

Unknown Speaker (00:51:53.059)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:54.059)

Frank?

Unknown Speaker (00:51:55.059)

Well, it's better than his son, because I was going to say Herbert, but then it might

Unknown Speaker (00:51:59.059)

be reference dude.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:00.059)

Okay, don't worry about it.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:01.340)

I'm sorry.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:04.860)

It's a colonizer narrative turned on its head, but also made worse.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:08.380)

Yeah, exactly.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:09.380)

This is the bad guy.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:11.619)

The main character that you are watching gets the entirety of Dune for you to feel justified

Unknown Speaker (00:52:17.679)

in what he's doing, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:52:19.820)

Barely.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:20.820)

Well, I mean-

Unknown Speaker (00:52:21.820)

Sort of.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:22.820)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:23.820)

No, because that's the layers of the onion.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:25.739)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:26.739)

He's justified in this one layer, which is his fight against the Harkonnens.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:30.539)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:31.539)

In that sense, there's a justification of taking out the Harkonnens and what have you.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:36.260)

But once we get past that layer, nothing is justified.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:38.940)

Everything is a complete mess.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:40.539)

And because magic powers exist, I don't even know what to think.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:44.219)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:45.219)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:46.219)

That's kind of the interesting question of, well, religion.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:55.380)

When magic powers are real, that changes the conception of morality.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:00.900)

I think for anybody who is really going to wrestle with magic and the powers therein,

Unknown Speaker (00:53:07.420)

your conception of what is and is good and good, bad have to be different, just in subjugation

Unknown Speaker (00:53:14.519)

to there being a God.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:16.260)

But there's also like, okay, so in this universe, there's magic that's a trick.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:22.440)

Like Jessica surviving the poison is a trick.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:26.980)

Kind of.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:27.980)

And the voice is a trick.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:28.980)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:29.980)

It's a trick that you learn and you can like, it's her training.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:33.500)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:34.500)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:35.500)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:36.500)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:37.500)

That's not really magic necessarily.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:38.500)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:39.500)

There's something that's being done, whether it's like, you know, those people who can

Unknown Speaker (00:53:42.820)

modulate their body temperature so they can survive in really cold places.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:46.179)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:47.179)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:48.179)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:49.179)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:50.179)

You know, like that's kind of what the poison thing is.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:51.179)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:52.179)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:53.179)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:54.179)

The spice gives you the ability to do that.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:55.179)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:56.179)

But there's also magic that's magic.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:57.179)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:58.179)

And I feel like there's a distinction between the two.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:59.179)

Like if we live in a universe where someone can survive this poison because they did a

Unknown Speaker (00:54:02.500)

trick.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:03.500)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:04.500)

Then I'm not like, I don't know.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:06.139)

It doesn't, it doesn't, it's not magic.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:08.099)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:09.099)

There is magic though.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:10.099)

Well, if we live in a universe where somebody can manipulate their genetic code to now make

Unknown Speaker (00:54:15.699)

an enzyme that processes the poison in your liver or whatever.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:19.219)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:20.219)

That is magic, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:54:21.219)

I guess if that's the mechanics of it, then it is magic.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:23.619)

But it's also slightly not, I mean, it's different.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:26.739)

I agree with you from like, I can talk to my ancestors from hundreds of thousands of

Unknown Speaker (00:54:32.059)

years ago.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:33.059)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:34.059)

And really actually talk to them.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:35.139)

It's not a thought.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:36.420)

It's never like, is this all in their head?

Unknown Speaker (00:54:38.460)

No, no, no, no, no.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:39.460)

This is 100% factual.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:40.460)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:41.460)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:42.460)

It's difficult.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:43.460)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:44.460)

And it points, Paul is able to like, as far as the voice goes, one of the things that

Unknown Speaker (00:54:51.300)

Paul does is he just becomes Leto in front of James Brolin's character in order to like,

Unknown Speaker (00:54:59.460)

he's like, how do I trust you with all this stuff?

Unknown Speaker (00:55:01.219)

And then he just adopts all of this stuff because he can actually speak to his dad now.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:06.420)

And once you become the Quiz-Oz-Hotter Act, you have the voice of your dad there.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:10.260)

Who's real.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:11.260)

Who's a not dead version of your dad.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:13.679)

And you could just embody them.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:15.260)

At all times.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:16.260)

This is, this is a mess.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:17.420)

Uh huh.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:18.420)

Oh, it's a real mess.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:19.420)

It's even messier in Children of Dude, the third book, whenever we see what St. Alia

Unknown Speaker (00:55:24.860)

of the Knife can really fuck up with.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:27.340)

Because if you call something an abomination, usually there's a reason for it.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:31.179)

Uh huh.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:32.179)

And we find out what that reason is.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:33.380)

Because she's a child that knows everything.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:35.860)

Well, there is, see, but that on its face isn't terrible.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:39.860)

Yes it is.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:40.860)

Well, I mean, it's terrible.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:42.219)

Because you don't have the maturity and you know, you're not an adult and maybe you make

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capricious child decisions.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:47.920)

I think it's actually the opposite is the problem.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:50.639)

Is that you're trapped in a baby.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:53.539)

You're an infinite being with knowledge of centuries upon millennia of experience and

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life that we could never even process.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:01.340)

And you go, meh.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:03.219)

She seems to be able to communicate pretty well though.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:05.139)

She does pretty good.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:06.139)

Psychic powers being what they are.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:07.340)

Again, magic helps.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:09.699)

So I am infuriated that this story isn't fully told.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:20.420)

But I think it's a good movie.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:21.659)

I think it was well done.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:23.500)

But it does drive me crazy the way the first one ended with like, tune in next time.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:31.260)

And I felt okay about that.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:33.219)

Because I understood there's a part two.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:36.539)

I'm kind of livid that there's a part three or a part three that may never exist.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:41.219)

Because it's not done.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:42.300)

It's not done.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:43.300)

What if I told you.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:44.300)

But I think Dune is never done.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:45.300)

Which is the fucking problem with it.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:46.300)

There's a hundred fucking books.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:47.699)

All this nonsense you tell me about the plot.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:49.900)

What if I told you that that is not true?

Unknown Speaker (00:56:51.659)

What?

Unknown Speaker (00:56:52.659)

There's only like six books or whatever.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:53.940)

I can't remember.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:55.019)

Because Frank Herbert died.

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And the story was never finished.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:00.219)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:01.219)

That's the problem.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:02.219)

Ever.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:03.219)

Not once.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:04.219)

That's the problem.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:05.219)

This doesn't end.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:06.219)

Dune got his notes or whatever and decided to finish the story.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:09.940)

Only it happened to be very very bad.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:12.460)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:13.460)

Was it the end of the story?

Unknown Speaker (00:57:14.460)

Well I mean I think that's probably what happens with these kinds of epic grand stories.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:20.300)

Tough.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:21.300)

Game of Thrones could never end satisfactorily.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:24.380)

Dune will never end satisfactorily.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:26.840)

Like the 84 movie tried to end satisfactorily as a contained story and it felt fucking silly.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:33.380)

And then they went to the waves and the title cards of people and it looked ridiculous.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:38.219)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:39.219)

And I get that.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:40.219)

But that's because.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:41.219)

But it sucks.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:42.219)

It sucks.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:43.219)

I mean the problem is it is a story about religion.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:46.500)

And religions can only, a religious story only ends one way.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:50.539)

With everyone dying and the rapture or whatever it is.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:54.420)

You know what I mean?

Unknown Speaker (00:57:55.420)

Like you can't end the bible with Jesus being like and I'll be back in a few days.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:00.179)

You know.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:01.179)

It has to be the seventh seal will open and then there's a big battle and then there's

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a showdown.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:08.579)

But each movie ends with that guitar lick.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:10.460)

Yeah absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:11.539)

But it's not.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:12.539)

And that's frustrating.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:13.539)

But that's what you're gonna get forever.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:15.179)

Forever.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:16.179)

It's what we're gonna get in our human lives.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:18.980)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:19.980)

Because we don't have magic.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:21.940)

I guess I would have a criticism that it felt artificially like completed for the sake of

Unknown Speaker (00:58:27.480)

a movie's sake.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:28.480)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:29.480)

If it did that.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:30.480)

If I have the alternate complaint that it's just left open ended and like it's like an

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episode of TV.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:37.300)

It is.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:39.659)

Because it didn't do that.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:40.659)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:41.659)

So there's a way they could have forced it and I would have felt it would have felt cheap.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:45.860)

Whereas I guess this is what they probably should have done but it also feels unsatisfying

Unknown Speaker (00:58:49.460)

and like the door isn't closed.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:51.739)

This is where we get back to postmodern critical theory.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:56.739)

Because when you read Dune, when Dune exists before other Dunes exist, all right, it is

Unknown Speaker (00:59:04.340)

a lot less muddled.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:06.940)

The story that you can read from Dune can be far more straightforward because Dune could

Unknown Speaker (00:59:11.860)

probably possibly have been only one book, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:59:15.940)

So when he's writing it, he's writing it that way.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:19.019)

Now as time goes on, now he's got more stuff that he's adding which changes the original

Unknown Speaker (00:59:24.320)

meaning of the book.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:25.820)

Which means that if you're going to adapt it, then you have to make your own choice

Unknown Speaker (00:59:29.420)

as to whether or not you're going to engage with just the text of Dune, just the text

Unknown Speaker (00:59:33.980)

of his work, just the text of all of the Dune texts, or you're just going to go, fuck it.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:40.539)

It's mine.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:41.539)

You know?

Unknown Speaker (00:59:42.539)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:43.539)

And I think that if you only engage with the text, you'll get a lot of blowback from people

Unknown Speaker (00:59:48.739)

like you.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:49.739)

I wouldn't, I wouldn't.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:50.739)

Or fans.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:51.739)

But I mean, I think that's why I like Dune more than I like some other stuff.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:57.340)

You know, like, I don't, I wouldn't get mad at somebody if they, whatever, about Star

Unknown Speaker (01:00:02.179)

Wars or something like that.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:03.460)

But whenever there's a conversation about The Last Jedi, I'm going to get into it, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:00:08.260)

Whatever you feel about Dune, I'm cool with that.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:10.780)

Go to town, buddy.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:12.099)

You know, like there's so many ways.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:13.699)

But I don't know if that's indicative of all of the fan base.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:16.340)

I think there's some people who get a lot of very strong feelings.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:18.500)

I'm sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:19.500)

I'm sure there are.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:20.500)

Which seems, which seems strange to me because, but you know, whatever.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:23.940)

I'm not a big fan of religion.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:25.940)

Fair enough.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:26.940)

And Dune is a book, I would say almost entirely about religion and God.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:30.900)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:31.900)

Well, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:33.320)

And that's the part that's really difficult because it's also like a political story and

Unknown Speaker (01:00:37.019)

it's also like a hero's journey type story, but it is just so complicated that multiple

Unknown Speaker (01:00:46.780)

people know that what they're doing is bullshit or kind of know that what they're doing is

Unknown Speaker (01:00:51.699)

bullshit and still do it, but also what they're doing isn't bullshit.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:59.659)

So that is the problem with making time a character in your story, because if time is

Unknown Speaker (01:01:06.460)

a character, then that means people's decisions can then be evaluated on results later on,

Unknown Speaker (01:01:14.139)

upon later on, upon later on.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:16.380)

So if you're going to live with time as a character, then here's what you can run up

Unknown Speaker (01:01:21.659)

against while you're writing.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:23.099)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:24.099)

So say I've got a character named Itler.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:26.219)

All right.

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And he has a vision.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:28.579)

This is while, you know, his terrible country, Ermany, is under horrible oppression.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:33.500)

All these people are pissed off.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:35.260)

Everybody's miserable.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:36.260)

He has this vision from real ass God, real ass God, the real one, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:01:42.119)

That says, if you don't do this, then Germany will go away forever and ever.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:48.340)

But if you do this, you will be a monster, but eventually you'll be part of the world

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leadership.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:56.019)

Eventually your country will be part of the nations of nations.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:58.940)

Eventually you'll be a leader economically, even despite all of that horrifying shit.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:03.179)

But you will live forever as a monster.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:05.219)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:06.219)

So now you have that question.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:08.179)

You don't have, am I a good person if I commit a genocide?

Unknown Speaker (01:02:12.099)

You have a, am I a good person if I commit a smaller genocide?

Unknown Speaker (01:02:16.059)

There will always, if time is a character, then your problem is always going to be the

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trolley problem for every decision you make.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:25.179)

If you're Paul Atreides, okay, so I go on a tear and kill everybody in the universe

Unknown Speaker (01:02:31.940)

and become the emperor.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:33.500)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:34.500)

I don't kill everybody.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:35.500)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:36.500)

You know, there's plenty of people left.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:37.500)

I just killed a bunch of people who would have lived if I hadn't, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:02:41.579)

But if he doesn't exist, then a bunch of people are going to kill a bunch of people anyways.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:45.860)

The only difference is agency.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:47.780)

The only difference is in this story, it is definitively Paul's fault and Paul could choose

Unknown Speaker (01:02:54.820)

to keep all of those people alive.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:56.820)

But here's the thing.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:58.059)

Okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:59.179)

So if Paul just died in the sword fight with a bald guy, how does everyone end up dying

Unknown Speaker (01:03:09.539)

then?

Unknown Speaker (01:03:10.539)

Well, that's the problem there.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:11.980)

If he dies in a sword fight with bald guy, bald guy's kid is going to become the Kwisatz

Unknown Speaker (01:03:15.739)

Haderach.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:16.739)

The Bene Gesserit are probably going to be able to control that kid.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:19.219)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:20.219)

That kid will also become the emperor.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:21.380)

And so we'll have the Kwisatz Haderach being the emperor anyways.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:24.739)

Only it won't be Jessica's son, it'll be Feyd-Roth's son.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:28.780)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:29.780)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:30.780)

Seems arbitrary.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:31.780)

It's very arbitrary.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:32.780)

That's also the problem with religion, my man.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:36.059)

Paul, he has the agency and he has the choice.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:42.099)

The end result is bad for everyone no matter what.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:46.500)

It's really just selfishness.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:48.059)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:49.059)

He is, because in this universe, in this universe, he is the only person who can make a decision.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:55.920)

For now.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:56.920)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:57.920)

Like, if he punted and he just said, okay, I'm going to go and fight off everyone who

Unknown Speaker (01:04:03.219)

comes to attack me or whatever, and I'm not going to do any of this bullshit, then Feyd-Roth's

Unknown Speaker (01:04:08.539)

son would come around and then become the Kwisatz Haderach or whatever.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:13.519)

And then that kid would have agency.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:16.780)

That kid would have ultimate agency.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:20.619)

And so...

Unknown Speaker (01:04:21.619)

I mean, that kid's probably going to have to kill you, though.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:24.980)

Maybe.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:25.980)

So, you know, I mean, it is that kind of thing where...

Unknown Speaker (01:04:28.739)

What do you mean with two beings who are ultimate on the same planet?

Unknown Speaker (01:04:32.179)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:33.179)

Well, but I mean, that's what's so fun about that is, to me, that's an infinitely more

Unknown Speaker (01:04:37.619)

interesting story, because to me, we live like that.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:42.880)

Everybody has agency.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:43.880)

If everybody has agency, then you have to respect everybody else's agency when you're

Unknown Speaker (01:04:48.980)

shitting on other people and taking it away from them.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:51.780)

But then what if only two people have agency?

Unknown Speaker (01:04:53.820)

Well, but I mean, in this universe, only one person has agency.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:57.539)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:58.539)

The conflict is between does this person make the right choice of the trolley problem?

Unknown Speaker (01:05:04.340)

Always.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:05.340)

The conflict is what is justifiable if the end result is known?

Unknown Speaker (01:05:12.460)

If I know that me being a good person now will extinct the humanity or will cause extinction

Unknown Speaker (01:05:18.980)

for humanity in a thousand years, all right, then is it not my responsibility to do the

Unknown Speaker (01:05:26.380)

thing that will keep humanity alive for 10,000 years?

Unknown Speaker (01:05:30.380)

Is that my responsibility?

Unknown Speaker (01:05:31.900)

Am I the person...

Unknown Speaker (01:05:33.300)

Am I being altruistic by being a monster in order to keep humanity?

Unknown Speaker (01:05:36.420)

It's cruel to be kind.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:37.820)

Right?

Unknown Speaker (01:05:38.820)

But the reality of that is that's dumb.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:40.940)

That is a dumb way of viewing things, and it's a dumb way of looking at life, because

Unknown Speaker (01:05:45.219)

you don't know the outcome of things.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:46.780)

Except they do.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:48.260)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:49.260)

In a situation where you do know the outcome, where you have a concrete awareness of what

Unknown Speaker (01:05:54.219)

the future will be, and you can choose a bespoke one, specifically the one you want, yes, your

Unknown Speaker (01:06:00.860)

actions are...

Unknown Speaker (01:06:03.739)

That's the problem with the presenting the hypothetical in the context that it does in

Unknown Speaker (01:06:07.980)

this story.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:08.980)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:09.980)

It's like the magic powers existing kind of...

Unknown Speaker (01:06:11.820)

Undercuts the whole idea.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:12.820)

A little bit.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:13.820)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:14.820)

But it still provokes a lot of interesting questions.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:16.260)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:17.260)

I mean, the trolley problem is always interesting because you don't know, you know, what if

Unknown Speaker (01:06:22.940)

whatever happens, whatever unknown ramifications of your actions spiral out, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:06:28.619)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:29.619)

But if the trolley problem is not only do I know what's going to happen, am I a bad

Unknown Speaker (01:06:33.900)

person if I say saving this one guy is more important because that guy eventually becomes

Unknown Speaker (01:06:38.739)

a doctor that saved me?

Unknown Speaker (01:06:40.300)

You know?

Unknown Speaker (01:06:41.300)

Am I a bad person?

Unknown Speaker (01:06:42.300)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:43.300)

Because I have to make the choice.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:44.300)

And I think the conclusion is anyone with agency is making both the right and wrong

Unknown Speaker (01:06:49.260)

choice at all times because you're either going to live or die.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:53.260)

And so if you're alive, then you've made the right choice.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:55.300)

And if you're dead, then you've probably also made the right choice.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:58.260)

It doesn't matter unless you're God, in which case you fucked up.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:03.739)

That's the ultimate conclusion.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:04.739)

I think that might be the ultimate conclusion, but again, it was an unfinished series.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:11.159)

Only six books.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:12.159)

He had so little time to get his point out.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:13.860)

Oh my God.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:14.860)

So many words.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:15.860)

So many words.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:16.860)

I can't begin to describe how long some of those are.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:19.179)

I have a couple of stray thoughts.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:21.099)

Yes.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:22.099)

The first is that I thought it was bullshit that House Atreides happens to have their

Unknown Speaker (01:07:27.420)

new atomic stuff on Arrakis.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:29.699)

Shouldn't it be on their home planet?

Unknown Speaker (01:07:31.260)

I don't even want to.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:33.139)

That was a little bit convenient.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:34.539)

It was the most convenient.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:36.539)

I love a good, oh, by the way, we have infinite power over here.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:40.260)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:41.260)

I thought that was a little bit, I'm guessing that's in the books too.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:44.179)

Oh yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:45.179)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:46.179)

But we brought the one ring from home just in case we needed it.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:49.179)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:50.179)

Even though we got jumped and killed the day after we got here, these are just here.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:55.340)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:56.340)

Well we hid them in plain sight because we're geniuses.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:58.380)

I found that to be troubling.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:59.780)

Yep.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:00.780)

And then the other thing, sort of flip side of this, it's very difficult for Christopher

Unknown Speaker (01:08:04.579)

Walken to exist in something and not be a distraction.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:07.059)

It is.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:08.059)

And I think he did okay.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:09.539)

I mean, it's weird because it's like, you're Christopher Walken.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:13.900)

Why aren't you Christopher Walkening right now?

Unknown Speaker (01:08:15.699)

But at the same time it's like, you're doing a good job, Christopher Walken.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:18.460)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:19.460)

But you're Christopher Walken.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:20.460)

I think he's been Christopher Walken for so long.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:22.819)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:23.819)

And there's so many people who have done impressions of him and he's become a caricature that it

Unknown Speaker (01:08:28.699)

is very difficult for him to exist in a role, like I said, that's not distracting.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:33.500)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:34.500)

And I think he's not distracting as the emperor, which is a testament.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:38.140)

It does seem weird.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:39.539)

It does seem weird for him to have a job.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:42.100)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:43.100)

Like he's just Christopher Walken.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:44.619)

That's not just being wacky.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:45.619)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:46.619)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:47.619)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:48.619)

You should just be you, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:08:49.619)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:50.619)

And instead he was doing like, he was acting.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:51.619)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:52.619)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:53.619)

It was good.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:54.619)

Well played, Chris.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:55.619)

Well done.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:56.619)

Christopher.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:57.619)

So anyway, I've seen Dune now.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:58.619)

You've seen Dune now.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:59.619)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:00.619)

How do you feel?

Unknown Speaker (01:09:01.619)

Um, I feel better for it, I guess.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:03.699)

Do you?

Unknown Speaker (01:09:04.699)

I guess.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:05.699)

I have some context.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:06.699)

I have some references.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:07.699)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:08.699)

I have some thoughts.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:11.699)

It raised questions about obligation and prophecy and what have you, but it was a good movie.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:20.380)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:21.380)

The new ones are good.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:22.380)

First one, I don't even know what I think about it anymore.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:25.340)

The 84 one?

Unknown Speaker (01:09:26.340)

The Lynch version?

Unknown Speaker (01:09:27.340)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:28.340)

I swear, if you watch it about 13, 14 more times, it's going to really open up for you.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:32.020)

See, that's the problem.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:34.100)

This, I get how it hooks people.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:36.020)

You know what I mean?

Unknown Speaker (01:09:37.020)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:38.020)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:39.020)

I understand people getting into it deep.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:43.899)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:44.899)

I can understand, especially if it hits you at the right age, and I could see how this

Unknown Speaker (01:09:51.460)

kind of a story, particularly how I'm imagining the books, because I haven't read them.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:57.180)

Oh, imagine you were, I don't know, probably somebody like, imagine if you were prophesied.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:03.579)

Mm-hmm.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:04.579)

Oh.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:05.579)

Really hit you hard, this book.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:06.579)

Oh, shit.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:07.579)

I wasn't even taking into account that layer of it.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:11.260)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:12.260)

I didn't have much of a shot.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:14.260)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:15.260)

I was fucked.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:16.260)

Even if you are a non-heralded child, these are interesting questions, and it raises a

Unknown Speaker (01:10:22.220)

lot of interesting stuff, and the characters are compelling.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:27.779)

So I get it.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:28.779)

I get how someone could get hooked, and I worry about myself a little bit, because there

Unknown Speaker (01:10:33.420)

is a part of me that is now very curious, because this two-part, five-and-a-half fucking

Unknown Speaker (01:10:40.100)

hour movie, or whatever, ended with no satisfactory conclusion of anything.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:46.460)

I don't even know the worm kid.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:48.300)

Nope.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:49.300)

So there's a part of me that worries that it's like someone has given me a little bit

Unknown Speaker (01:10:54.060)

of crack, and now I'm going to have to go look for a hit.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:58.899)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:59.899)

So I think for me, it was kind of, you know, what am I going to do?

Unknown Speaker (01:11:04.699)

This is the only... Maybe?

Unknown Speaker (01:11:07.619)

I think maybe I would go with Highlander, as far as manufactured shit.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:14.939)

Coming into this from a point of view of this is both real and not real.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:19.579)

You know that this is not real.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:22.260)

But shit keeps happening, man.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:24.300)

It's fucking crazy.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:25.460)

So as somebody who was prophesied as a child-

Unknown Speaker (01:11:28.739)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:29.739)

... how does that affect your relationship with the material?

Unknown Speaker (01:11:36.380)

I find my relationship to it to be, I think, the opposite of what people would have expected.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:44.579)

Because I think that's probably a large part of how I wound up being who I am, is like

Unknown Speaker (01:11:49.220)

immediately rejecting the idea, whenever I read Dune at like eight, of how silly this

Unknown Speaker (01:11:56.979)

is while embodying it, there is a certain part of you that remembers, if you're a 12-year-old

Unknown Speaker (01:12:06.420)

kid or something, you've got this fucking prophecy on your ass head, and then you're

Unknown Speaker (01:12:12.140)

reading this book about how this guy who doesn't want to be the prophet is like, well, eventually

Unknown Speaker (01:12:16.380)

I guess I'll just have to kill everybody.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:18.380)

It's the only way.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:19.859)

It's the only way to survive.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:22.140)

And there's a part of you that is like, it has to be easy to get swept up in.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:29.100)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:30.100)

And there's a part of me that sees when Alex starts doing some of that megalomaniacal shit,

Unknown Speaker (01:12:38.579)

there's a part of me that feels that it's a certain type, and it's a type that I know

Unknown Speaker (01:12:43.060)

because it's like, I could walk into it to a certain extent.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:47.579)

Like I've got the-

Unknown Speaker (01:12:48.579)

You have that backstory that you can use incredibly well to your advantage if you wanted to weaponize

Unknown Speaker (01:12:54.779)

it.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:55.779)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:56.779)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:57.779)

So just that choice of not doing it ever and forever, it has to be a constant forever.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:04.819)

I think part of that, and I'm not trying to diminish what you're saying, but magic isn't

Unknown Speaker (01:13:10.579)

real.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:11.579)

Exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:12.579)

So if you actually had magic powers, it would be much more difficult for you to deal with

Unknown Speaker (01:13:18.380)

the fact that you were prophesied because you're like, oh wait, I also have magic fucking

Unknown Speaker (01:13:22.460)

powers.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:23.460)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:24.460)

Totally.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:25.460)

The problem though is when you're in it, especially at religious level, magic is real.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:31.140)

And that means that there were a bunch of weird things that happened while I was growing

Unknown Speaker (01:13:36.140)

up that weren't, not like, no, not miraculous weird.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:42.220)

Like weird, like one of our neighbors who I'd never spoken to and never met before,

Unknown Speaker (01:13:48.220)

just like one day walked in and was like, I had a dream about your son and then gave

Unknown Speaker (01:13:52.819)

me $500.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:54.739)

I'm not joking.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:55.739)

Well, that's just weird.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:56.739)

That's insane weird.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:57.739)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:58.739)

Right?

Unknown Speaker (01:13:59.739)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:00.739)

But if that hits you at the wrong time, when you're in the wrong head space, you're like,

Unknown Speaker (01:14:02.779)

holy shit, it's a sign.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:04.699)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:05.699)

Right?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:06.699)

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:07.699)

And it goes along with that.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:08.699)

It's not just like a weird thing that happened to me.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:10.859)

It's a weird thing that happened to the guy with the fucking prophecy on his head, you

Unknown Speaker (01:14:14.100)

know?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:15.100)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:16.100)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:17.100)

And it's like, it's possible if you've got more than one piece of evidence to convince

Unknown Speaker (01:14:22.460)

yourself that something is true, despite the fact that it is absolutely silly.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:26.180)

So do you think Paul, just some of these things hit him at the wrong time?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:29.100)

I mean, what's interesting about Paul is the choice that he makes later on.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:34.460)

Which we don't have in this movie.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:35.619)

Which we don't have in this movie.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:37.060)

I'm to understand that he takes out his eyes.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:40.460)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:41.460)

Well, his eyes are taken out, but he can see the future.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:43.819)

So if something happens to him, he did it.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:47.659)

Right.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:48.659)

Right?

Unknown Speaker (01:14:49.659)

So he chooses everything.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:51.659)

And so eventually you get to the point where there is that choice.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:55.380)

Live or die.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:56.500)

If I live, everybody dies.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:57.699)

If I die, everybody lives.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:59.720)

So that is the Jesus story.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:02.859)

And that's what I find interesting about it.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:05.420)

Is that in the first Dune, you have the manufactured Messiah.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:09.579)

And then in the third Dune, you have the conversation between what you would expect to kind of like

Unknown Speaker (01:15:17.420)

resurrected Jesus and God would have a conversation of being like, hey man, that didn't solve shit,

Unknown Speaker (01:15:22.899)

did it?

Unknown Speaker (01:15:23.899)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:24.899)

I don't think I'm going to come back.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:27.239)

You can handle this one.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:28.899)

Bounce.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:30.100)

And then worm.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:31.579)

And then worm.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:33.579)

Well, it'll be interesting to see if that movie ever comes out.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:38.979)

It'll be interesting.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:40.699)

But it's done now.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:42.619)

I still don't really fully understand what the Ben of Jez are up to.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:46.380)

There's a mini series where you can watch James McAvoy get eaten by a sand trout.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:52.060)

Well, I know what I'm doing tonight.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:54.220)

I know what I'm Dune, Dune Messiah.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:59.460)

Is that what that's called?

Unknown Speaker (01:16:00.619)

I believe it's Children of Dune.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:02.220)

Or maybe the, whatever.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:04.699)

Anyway, I'm Dune'd out.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:07.220)

It's time to be Dune with Dune.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:08.899)

Creak.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:09.899)

That's the book closing.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:12.939)

But thank you.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:15.300)

Thank you for exposing me to this and taking me down this path and sharing your experience

Unknown Speaker (01:16:20.340)

too.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:21.340)

It helps, you know, it helps to just flesh out some of your sci-fi interests and weirdo

Unknown Speaker (01:16:28.899)

shit.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:29.899)

No, it is like, it's kind of fascinating to have a weird connection with Alex.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:38.180)

Just that, that like, I know, I know your thoughts sometimes.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:43.300)

Not because I'm smart, but because I am fighting them.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:47.819)

Or because I've read the same sci-fi as you and it affected me similarly.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:51.300)

It affected me similarly and I could make your choice.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:54.819)

And that's, yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:55.819)

It's weird.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:56.819)

Well, good thing you didn't.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:57.819)

Yeah, it's nice.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:58.819)

Hooray.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:59.819)

Instead I'm doing this, which is completely different.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:01.260)

Sure.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:02.260)

It's a little different.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:03.260)

Slightly.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:04.260)

So, we'll be back.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:05.260)

Indeed.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:06.260)

I guess.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:07.260)

We'll be back.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:08.260)

Indeed we will.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:09.260)

But we have a website.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:10.260)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:11.260)

knowledgefight.com.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:12.260)

We are not on social media.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:13.260)

That is true.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:14.260)

I'm neither Neo, nor Leo, nor DZX Clark.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:16.979)

I am not the mysterious professor.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:19.100)

Woo, yeah, woo, yeah, woo.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:22.380)

And now here comes the sex robot.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:24.579)

Andy in Kansas.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:25.579)

You're on the air.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:26.579)

Thanks for holding.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:27.579)

Hello, Alex.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:28.579)

I'm a first time caller.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:29.579)

I'm a huge fan.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:30.579)

I love your work.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:31.579)

I love it.