Transcript/792: Chatting With Jeff Sharlet

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Jordan (00:00:59.000)

Hello, everyone, welcome back to knowledge fights. Unfortunately, I am here by myself without my co host, Dan. Luckily, I have guests with me. Please welcome to the show. Jeff Charlotte. Jeff. My first question, of course, is what's your bright spot today?

Jeff Sharlet (00:01:17.000)

My bright spot was the look of delight on my 13 year old my nine year old faces. When they heard that Trump had been indicted, and they had this sense, they learned about from their mother who's who yelled Yes, mother fucker. And it was licensed for them to curse and which I think is I mean, that's what cursing is actually for. Right? Like we try and teach them like cursing is real. So like, you want to curse Trump you can and just to get the sense that even though look, we know that made this arrest may end up helping him it may mountain nothing, whatever. But in this little moment, my kids have grown up with this vile, vile creature had a sense that perhaps sometimes the bullies get theirs?

Jordan (00:02:01.000)

Yeah, it is. It is very much a feeling that I don't think many people have had for a long time, which is the sense that it is possible to hold someone in power accountable. Yeah, this is the feeling of holding them accountable. But it is a feeling of possibility.

Jeff Sharlet (00:02:16.000)

Right? Right. This isn't a bit like, hey, like, Maybe we should try like, whoa.

Jordan (00:02:23.000)

Why not? We've tried.

Jeff Sharlet (00:02:25.000)

Yes, so much of the Democratic Party has been, you know, going on the principles of one of my favorite lines from The Simpsons, when Homer says, you know, I think it's home versus I tried nothing. And I'm all out of ideas. You know, I mean, that's, that's, that's a little unfair. But like, what if we tried to stop this criminal behavior by prosecuting criminal behavior? Maybe that just maybe it's a crazy idea, but maybe it'll work? And it might not. But let's try. I mean, that argument

Jordan (00:02:53.000)

was always a wonderful smokescreen of like, listen, okay, we love you normal people. But if we start prosecuting people who are on our station, then that opens us to possibly being prosecuted. So we'd rather let Trump do whatever it is he wants, so I can steal money from you also. So that's that's always

Jeff Sharlet (00:03:11.000)

and and they know, look, there's gonna be retaliatory prosecutions and like you signed up for that job in the public square, then you put yourself I mean, in the same way, those of us who do media, right, like, right, you know, there's a way in which I hate trolls and everything else. But sometimes I hear I sometimes I hear young journalist is sort of like saying, This is so unfair, that I have to endure this. And I'm like, this is this is the job we signed up for. No one is saying, hey, you know what, this world is not going to be complete till Charlotte speaks in public, right? Doesn't mean I deserve, you know, death threats or something like that. But I can't be stung when they come.

Jordan (00:03:51.000)

Yeah. Yeah, I recognize that. It's, it's part of that at a certain point, it's part of the gig. You know, like, if as a comic, if I was if I was ever furious about bombing, that wouldn't make much sense at all. It's gonna happen over and over and over again, make your peace with it. Now. That kind of feeling? Um, well, I mean, let's get into it. I don't want to waste all of your time today. First things first, the most important thing to our listeners is that you have been on Infowars

Jeff Sharlet (00:04:19.000)

I have and I and I confess this right before this, I was like, Oh, God, I gotta tell you and then I was like, I don't want to tell anybody I don't want I don't want anyone to know. And but this is not like I'm a convert or anything. And and my views on this have changed. Actually, I can't you might know you do. Did you look it up? So you might know when it was? It was

Jordan (00:04:38.000)

2009 it was three Oh, really? Or at least that's when we we covered it was not because you hadn't written the book the family yet? You know, just published the article about an article. Yeah. So he at that time he was trying to be above the left right paradigm. He was doing that whole thing. So he was

Jeff Sharlet (00:04:57.000)

he was nasty and crazy then too, for sure. If I didn't know too much about him, I knew what I knew. And that's not really an excuse, because even knowing him back then I would have done it. But Alex Jones is featured in that Richard Linklater sort of animated movie, right? That's what I knew about him. And I was like, this Kook. And it's sort of an interesting character. He's a conspiracy theorist. I was also on a radio show called Coast to Coast AM Oh, of course, like, Wait night conspiracy theories. And my, my principal back then, and it still applies now. But I want all kinds of people to talk to me oftentimes against their best interests when fascists talk to me. Not going, I'm upfront, you know, it's like,

Jordan (00:05:41.000)

they're gonna win, they're gonna defeat you. They're, you're gonna come over to their side, everybody's gonna stand or

Jeff Sharlet (00:05:46.000)

I'm gonna write this book, and it's gonna make them furious. Right. But I want them to talk to me. So on that principle, then I should be willing to talk to anybody. Right? That was my old pencil. I don't hold it anymore. Actually. I think at times, I also partly I don't hold it because I think back then I would not have said we, I would say there are spots of fascism in America. But I wouldn't say there is a then you know, there's more than one kind of bad under the sun. Right. And this is the sort of thing like when, whenever we describe, you know, of course, Trump is fascist Bush was fascist Clinton was fascist Reagan was fascist now there's more than one kind of bad under the sun. And in fact, those presidents committed incredible harm. But this is fascism, and no now, I mean, like, if not that he would, but if Alex Jones asked me on now, I would not. No, no, I would not do it.

Jordan (00:06:38.000)

I think I think that was the case. For most people. It wasn't until the it wasn't really until they became us. Or they became all of us, so to speak, until Alex Jones is ideas became Fox News, his ideas, and it was everywhere. And it became powerful. talk to these people anymore, this has got to stop.

Jeff Sharlet (00:06:59.000)

I mean, I don't want Yeah, you don't want to contribute to that momentum. You don't want to like when he was a fringe character. And back in 2003, maybe I didn't know I at the time. I did give an interview once a couple years later, like, why did you do that? Of course, Michelle Goldberg. And I was like, you know, I'm the one hand that I had that free speech thing going on the other hand, I can't remember which Linklater movie it was I thought that'll be interesting. I like eccentrics. And no. One wanted to talk about what's that thing where people think it's a real thing. The camp in northern California where leads go. And Alex Jones.

Jordan (00:07:42.000)

Yeah, everybody knows it's the Bohemian Grove, Bohemian Grove.

Jeff Sharlet (00:07:46.000)

That's it right. And he went and I had written about this organization that is real. It's not a conspiracy, but they are weirdly secretive. Sure, the fellowship or the family, they run the National Prayer Breakfast. And so that was, you know, that was, that was just bait for him. And he wanted to do that. And he kept on wanting to say, but so and they also do this. And I'm like, no, they don't do that. But they're pretty bad on their own. Yeah, he wasn't so interested in actually the bad things that they did not like reporting, you know, dictators around the world. He was more interested in, you know, I don't know, do they dance naked around the fire in Northern California, which to me would be like, great if those guys would stop with a dictator and all that and have more naked dances better? Right?

Jordan (00:08:33.000)

Well, I mean, that's, that's essentially why he does that is that it's useful for him to present the idea that these people are dancing around naked, as opposed to these people who share the ideology that you do, are actively trying to kill you. You know, that kind of thing. It's a lot easier to go one way or the other. I, there's a lot of that on, you know, you've joined a group of well respected people who have accidentally gone on Infowars. Bill Ayers has accidentally got on Infowars. You know, like, it's it's one of those things where you think, Oh, well, I can talk to anybody and then you get blindsided by that. So that was that was fun. What's it like? In 2003? You were you were on to the tip of these people. While you might call them a conspiracy. It's not the conspiracy that you think you're talking about. It's not the drinking blood conspiracy. It's just regular old kind of fascism.

Jeff Sharlet (00:09:36.000)

Well, even then, so when I wrote that, I mean, and so this book, the undertow is sort of coming out of this 20 years of reading about right wing movements. And for a lot of that time that I wrote this book called the family and the Netflix series, people can see blah, blah, blah. And that was about a kind of Christian fundamentalism, the oldest Christian conservative political organization, Washington dating back to nine In 35, when they were formed as businessmen who hated the New Deal and saw the Satanic and they wanted to, they wanted to work against organized labor, and they weren't a conspiracy, and this is really important at partly because they didn't so much break the laws. I mean, there is a prominent former congressman right now who was convicted of conspiracy, so he really is for what he was doing with them. But mostly they make laws, right. So like they, you know, one of their early victories was being instrumental in something called Taft Hartley, which really gutted the organized labor movement, and you can organize for that, and I think this is what a lot of the left sometimes doesn't understand about the right the right has social movements to social movement is not. It's a neutral term, right? There's, you know, it's not it's not in itself a good thing. And they were sort of an elite social movement, and then the undertow, I'm sort of, it's almost like they always have this idea of trickle down fundamentalism, right. And when Trump came down that golden escalator and 2015, I looked at him, and I said, this is the kind of leader that this group, this group of congressmen and businessmen have really supported around the world, but they've always had a little bit of a line, they wouldn't go quite for that strong man figure back in United States. And really, I mean, just sort of coming down from the dark heaven of Trump Tower. There he was, and it was like, Oh, this will be a contender because there's so many politicians who all like Chuck Grassley? Yeah, Chuck Grassley was close friends with a dictator in Somalia and arranged for arm support from sodbury. You know, before this, Chuck Grassley, Chuck Grassley was always a right winger, but he actually had this weird kind of integrity. But you knew that he could be come over to Trump, because he'd done it for those around the world. And here it came. And so that was a sort of their trickle down fundamentals and their ideas becoming mainstream. I wouldn't have said at the time, I said, in fact, they're not fascist.

Jordan (00:11:59.000)

I know that. They're not.

Jeff Sharlet (00:12:01.000)

Yeah, they're bad, but they're not fascists. It's Fascism is a word that means something. And they didn't have a cult of personality. Partly because Jesus occupied that space. And while this kind of American power always sort of supported violence, there's been always been a paradox of it, you know, we declare ourselves a city on a hill. We don't openly fetishize the violence to the point of pleasure, Trump changed that he brought those two elements of classical fascism into play. And now, now, I think it's it is a fair descriptor.

Jordan (00:12:39.000)

Yep. That sounds about right. So yeah, so I think essentially, you've got a giant barrel of I told you, so is that you carry around with you? Right, and you give those out to anybody who's

Jeff Sharlet (00:12:52.000)

playing hard. And I just like, you know, I just I was,

Jordan (00:12:56.000)

whoever said When they go low, we go high, you get to hand out a little air, you know, screw that kinda.

Jeff Sharlet (00:13:02.000)

I mean, there's so many of us though, right? I mean, like, you guys have been focusing on this for a long, long time. And it is true, I'll tell you this, right. When I published that book in 2008, the family and then Obama was elected, I can't tell you how many producers or interviewers will say, Does this really matter anymore? Isn't fundamentalism dead in America? And I've done history and I was like, Look, you can literally go through the media history of America and find that same decoration every five years going back to 1925. And the Scopes Monkey Trial. Yeah. This time I was, you know, I published this book, and it's seen from a slow Civil War is the subtitle and I was sort of scared. I'm like, Oh, God, their views. I'm just gonna go the thing. He's an alarmist. So the good news for me is, reviews are great. They like it. They say this is scary. The bad news for the world is the very people who once would have said this is alarmist or like, Joseph O'Neill writing the New York Times sort of says yeah, this guy spends a lot of time around militia guys and right wingers and so on. And you know, the little to paraphrase, you know, to a hammer, everything looks like a nail, but the problem is, there's a whole lot of nails right now. And so, yeah, good news, bad news.

Jordan (00:14:14.000)

I think I think the way that you start your book is, is quite well, I mean, you you book and your, literally, your first and last chapter are both about American music, essentially. And it opens with Hara belly, Harry Belafonte. And I think you draw maybe a parallel, I don't know if you made it explicit. But to that being another Undertow, another era of civil war, wherein it is it is all happening beneath the surface, and it draws some people and tears them all the way down, you know. So,

Jeff Sharlet (00:14:53.000)

in a long struggle to write like that, this is this is not the first time we've been here. Yeah.

Jordan (00:14:58.000)

So I wanted to I wanted to ask you some questions about that as far as Harry Belafonte goes? I had no idea I mean, I wasn't alive, but I had no idea quite the extent of his popularity and his fame and there's some amazing stories that you tell about that if you if you've got some time

Jeff Sharlet (00:15:17.000)

so yeah, yeah yeah, I saw I started with Belafonte and and with an even lesser known guy now namely haze, but people probably know some of the haze songs like if I had a hammer, maybe heard Peter, Paul and Mary sing it. And so you know, I heard him or I build a tree house. Now, if I had a hammer, I mean, it was a radical song. If I had a hammer, I would smash capitalism is what he meant. And Harry Belafonte, everyone knows that Banana Boat Song day, oh, I can't see you, you know what it's in your head. They like coming to want to go home. Also a radical song landed on the docks in Jamaica, and I started with these guys, because I think they're remarkable human beings. And, and they, they were in the struggle, they overlapped a little bit milling mainly at different times. We Hayes's you know, 30s 40s And Harry's, he's still alive. But you know, he was instrumental to the civil rights movement in the 50s and 60s. And to show that the struggle is long, they're both defeated. They don't win, right. Which we know the Civil Rights Movement didn't did not achieve all that wanted, or nearly enough, and he knows that and in his 90s he's an angry man. Yeah, angry all his life, he says, but it's not a matter of where your anger comes from. It's a matter of what you do with it. And what he did with it when he 1956 He was the first guy to sell a million records, not Elvis, which, you know, he points out was like, it was me it was a black man, it was a black immigrant was the first person to sell right a million records.

Jordan (00:16:50.000)

So we don't celebrate that in America. That seems so uncommon for us to not celebrate a black man who did it first. And so

Jeff Sharlet (00:16:56.000)

many firsts of Harry Belafonte and and what was interesting to me about that, not just his, the, the first pneus of it, right, famous first and so on. But the way that part of the reason I don't know that is that so many of these icons get smoothed down, you know, I sang Banana Boat Song and if I had a hammer in elementary school, you know that safe song songs and that's part of how we forget, we forget these resources we have for struggle that were there, these freedom songs, and Harry Belafonte News knows that because he was studying the songs and slay people saying that had code in them. And he says all my songs are code songs, and he has a blistering critique of American knife. Two, he says, it's a minstrel act, you know, corked up blackface. The whole country is a minstrel act. He says Even I'm in the minstrel act. This is how America this is the struggle that we are in. And then the third and last point, I guess, would be just, you know, there's a scene Harry Belafonte a Freedom Summer in Mississippi, it's about to wind up the program. 1963 is this I can't remember 64 and three civil rights workers, Goodman Schwerner and Cheney horrifically murdered I mean, there's no non horrific murder, but you know, mutilated, tortured. And so they all decide to stay down there, but they need money. Harry, Harry's the guy who has the money, he's got enough money but he can't wire $50,000 to Mississippi. It's like sending a death when he's got to bring it himself. He goes in and gets Sidney Poitier, the famous actor, first black man to win an Academy as actor. And he says, you know, they can might be scared of killing too big. I'm not gonna use the word he can use word. I can't use the word black men. And the claim was not they landed on the plane. The Klan was waiting. It's a car chase. It's a car chase town and they get there. And I'm like, these struggles these Oathkeepers these these proud boys, these three percenters. There's more of them now there really are. But we fought them before and we gotta remember that. You know, I

Jordan (00:19:11.000)

that that story really was was there were two stories about Harry Belafonte that that were mind blowing to me. Obviously that story we're in. It is entirely possible that we lose Harry Belafonte and Sidney Poitier A to A clan murder. I mean, that's that that is a near miss. A robber named

Jeff Sharlet (00:19:34.000)

really blue who was and they were getting rammed I mean, they were drowning and, and at one point, Sidney Poitier says, let's stop and the sheriff will stop him in you know, Willie blue says, Who do you think is chasing us and trying to ram into it? They're part of the Klan.

Jordan (00:19:50.000)

The Sundown town does not watch movies with Sidney Poitier. They don't fucking care.

Jeff Sharlet (00:19:58.000)

Oh shit, man. We're gonna kill you. But oh, Oh man, that was really that was fucking great.

Jordan (00:20:06.000)

No and the other story about Harry Belafonte that was such a soft power, such a soft exercise of power that is is like revolutionary on its own is the quote from the from the prisoner of like I love Mr. B He made the clock stop when you're telling the story of how recess or the the length of time that they were allowed to be where they were was always strictly set and Harry Belafonte said, we'll stay another 15 minutes and the prison just goes yeah, I guess you will.

Jeff Sharlet (00:20:40.000)

I guess that's the first thing like No, no, no. And Harry Belafonte says again, I said, we'll stay another 15 minutes and exam upset. He knew what he had, he knew his voice. He knew this kind of predator natural sense of time he had. He's a person of incredible charisma and incredible command. And he never wavered for a second of knowing what he wanted to use it for, which was freedom, which was not just for himself, but for others. And he sees these guys, these prisoners, he stopped the clock in prison and I think, you know, we look Harry Belafonte. The interesting thing too, is I'll do another interview the other day is like, what kind of leaders do we need now? I don't think of Harry Belafonte. As a leader. I think of Harry Belafonte, in the tradition of another great civil rights activist, Fannie Lou Hamer, strong people, she says, don't need strong leaders. Harry Belafonte was thinking, you know, I want to bring you into this space with me, we are going to do this thing together. I'm not going to direct you. It doesn't work. This is he's on a solidarity model is only works if we're in solidarity with one another. And so thank you for opening with that. Because you know, this book is pretty dark. And that's sort of why. Look, I knew putting that up. Yeah,

Jordan (00:21:59.000)

we're about to get real fucking dark. So I thought it would be nice to open with. That's the

Jeff Sharlet (00:22:03.000)

idea. That's the idea of the book. I just couldn't I didn't have the stomach just like I'm going to take you just into the depths. But I want you to be a little bit fortified to have something. So wait a minute, here's an imagination of another way. And I'm sure you know, I'm grateful to Norton for letting me do that. Because probably we could calculate somewhere. How many book sales I'm going to lose? Because people like oh, yeah, great. I want to hear a book about rent a fascism. danio. That's not what I was here for. But that's okay. Those who get through it are going to be I think, are going to be glad it was there.

Jordan (00:22:37.000)

Yeah. I mean, what struck me so hard about that, what struck me so hard about those stories is the element of agency for so few people. And that's kind of the thing like I, I was reminded of Audrey Lorde. Whenever I was reading that Harry Belafonte story like that the Masters tools cannot dismantle the Masters House. And that's where I kept going back to financiers. Like it is so strange to me that in order to continue this revolution, you need a financier to drive down with 50 grand in cash. You know, like, in that case, there's such a logjam where you can kill the whole operation? Do you know what I mean? So as far as these these revolutions go, you know, you look at that, and you see the failures that result from it. And it says to me that this cannot be the way that it's done.

Jeff Sharlet (00:23:36.000)

Yeah. And I think that's right. And I think Harry would say that too. I mean, Harry's like, this is the moment the money is needed. I'm gonna get it. Right. But this is not what we are working toward right now. Right. And I think the clarity of that and the fact that Harry Belafonte or Louise Hays and the weavers we Hayes you would know because he's Pete Seeger's songwriting partner.

Jordan (00:23:58.000)

I wouldn't know him for

Jeff Sharlet (00:24:00.000)

that. Well, people would No, no, no, no.

Jordan (00:24:03.000)

No, I know. I know. I'm enjoying. I'm having a little fun.

Jeff Sharlet (00:24:07.000)

And Pete, who's really actually kind of sacrilegious to say I found kind of a dog character.

Jeff Sharlet (00:24:16.000)

He was a sage just like the saint he was such a he had on his banjo is that this Murray, this machine surrounds hate and forces it to surrender. Pete by the way to horrible temper that it would never show but then he would sometimes quietly go back into a back room and smash a banjo come out and says I am alright. Now at Woody Guthrie, part of that band two had on his guitar famously sort of drawn around the hips of the guitar, this machine kills fascists, right? And, and I'm a non violent person myself, but I like the clarity of that right. The clarity is this is this is a which side are you on another or on? Which side are you on moment? And which you know, speaks to Like as we get into the book, and we encounter these really dark characters, people sometimes ask how do you talk sense into them? You don't know. I'm not interested. It's like you've been how long you've been doing the show?

Jordan (00:25:11.000)

Six years, you don't even want to just how many episodes we've done.

Jeff Sharlet (00:25:15.000)

How many episodes have you done? 10 shy of 810, chivay 100. So by now, Alex Jones is probably got the point. And he's saying, Thanks, guys. You know, I, I really, I went off on a fire there. We're not going to how do we how do we reach out? And there's there's an arrogance to that too, right? In the same way. You've watched a lot of Alex Jones. And somehow it has not yet convinced you, right? True. I hope. You know, if someone comes to me, I have no, I have a I have a queer kid. No one's gonna come up to me and say like Charlotte, how do we just find the common ground on which we can convey to you why homosexuality is wrong? You don't? We're on opposite sides. And let's, let's contend with that.

Jordan (00:26:04.000)

And I think that is the best way to enter into your book. I mean, into the larger portion. Yes. The the fun. This is a book about religion. And while it is going to constantly be called a Christian, it's going to be called like conservative Christianity, all of those things. In order to continue on this conversation, our listeners have a conception of me as a raving lunatic, atheist, but that's only because the only time I discuss religion is in the context of a raving lunatic zealot. So you know, I'm mirror that energy. In this situation, I get very, very frustrated with the use of the word Christian, because to me, I think what we're talking about is a what I would describe as a biblical collectivist. There are, you know, forever for whatever fundamentalist Christianity we want to describe. They don't adhere to the text, which is my problem. And it always has been, because I was raised a very, very zealot, zealous zealot truss person, you know, I was raised in a conservative Christian family of biblical literalist. And a lot of people assume that that means that I don't

Jeff Sharlet (00:27:30.000)

know. Well, I

Jordan (00:27:31.000)

mean, it let's get into it a little bit. I was born in a cult. And my family was in a non denominational biblical literalist cult. And, you know, when you do that, it gets out of control. Pretty quick, because for obvious reasons, you know. And to me, whenever people start talking about religion, I have no interest in talking about my religion, or belief systems or anything along those lines. I am only interested in your fundamental book, and whether or not you are adhering to the text. That's all that matters to me. If you believe it, and you adhere to the text, I really can't argue with you. And I will never change your mind on anything. It's only whenever people pick and choose. That is is. I mean, pathetic. And I'm saying that because that's what's in the book. What's in the book, is the dialogue.

Jeff Sharlet (00:28:30.000)

But I would say this, I would say so the interesting so one of the, the undertow, the long the essay that is at the heart of the book is after Ashley Babbitt. 35 year old white woman leads the charge in the Capitol on January 6, and gets shot by a cop who happens to be black and that plays right into the sort of the American mythology, of course, of the lynching story, and I knew she's gonna be a martyr. So I kind of decided to drive across the country just kind of following the ghost of Ashley Babbitt. And first night, I ended up at a militia church in Yuba City, California. And, yeah, there's a lot well, here's how much they don't adhere to the book. They got rid of the cross, because they thought it was kind of sissy, the altar was made of three swords. But at the same time, I would say this, right, there's I hear from people all the time, it says, doesn't Christ. Wasn't he always teach love and compassion, and the cherry picking, you know, they can come right back at you and say, I come not to bring peace but the sword right? Yeah. Or as, as that Pastor did, he had a customized ar 15 He was given by his church with Joshua one nine inscribed on it, which has now become this popular, so called Battle verse of, for certain conservative evangelicals, the birth itself is is you know, be brave. Take heart, right. You know, it's not objective, but you got to another and I suspect you do know the rest of the Joshua's story. What is God telling him to be brave? to do to go into Jericho and kill every man, woman and child in it to kill em. Well, sure.

Jordan (00:30:05.000)

What? We're gonna complain about a genocide in the Bible, pick one. Right?

Jeff Sharlet (00:30:10.000)

Right. So like, like, I'm there, I will say like, you say, Look, if you adhere to the book, I won't argue with you. If you hear the book and I gotta kill everybody, I'm going to, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna try no rule.

Jordan (00:30:24.000)

I don't I don't agree with you. Yeah, I know me. Let me let me try and give you an example that I think makes it a little bit clearer. When my sister was married, my little sister was married in a church with the pastor that we grew up with, to her with Bible verses as their vows, right? And one of the Vows was first Timothy 211. And I don't know if you are familiar with that one, but it's essentially let a woman learn and all submissiveness I permit no woman to have authority over man, because Adam was before Eve right? Now, what I love about that, is unlike the shades of grey Bible part where everybody's like, Oh, what is God? You know, glad that that, that, that? I like that? Because that's yes or no, do or don't, you know, now she had that Bible verse, she had it, read at a church, by the pastor before God, right. And when that happened, I laughed out loud in the church, because I know that that is not going to be how she lives her life, even in a slight bit. She rejects that completely. Right? I don't have any problem with that, go for it. But then don't care about the book, or cut it out of the book. If you don't care about the book, then stop caring about the book. Well, I frustration, the good,

Jeff Sharlet (00:31:40.000)

the good news for you is actually, you know, do you think Trump cares about the book? Not much, again, but Bill collectivists. And the Christian Nash was not even selective. It's a Christian nationalism of the moment. And I think this is in 2013. I report in Russia on this is just when Putin was beginning to use queer folks, LGBTQ plus folks, as the enemy within which he had actually been quite progressive before that, but he's like, I need to organize an enemy within and, and so. And he appealed as he has ever since to this kind of sense of a holy Christian mission of Russia. And Russians loved it. So like, there's people who sort of think, Gosh, I don't hate the Russian people. I hate Putin. Well, bad news. A lot of Russian people really like Putin. And, but not because they went to church, the church attendance is like single digits. You know, same with the larger movement around Trump right now, almost, except for the people I meet in churches. Most of the other people in this book, militia men, guys with guns, angry folks, they want, they want a Christian nation. They don't go to church. They don't know what that is. What they mean by Christianity is a kind of vision of whiteness. And you know, you could say like, you reject the word Christian. A phrase I use it Another book I hoped would catch on it didn't. I said, I think we should call it American fundamentalism. It's not Christian fundamentalism. That's a good one because it is all wrapped up in mythology. It's wrapped up in movies. I write a lot about movies. And this book is not it's not an academic study. It's because I mean to a January 6 insurrection is named George Riley. He He's angry because Richard Barnett, I think who put his shoes up on Nancy Pelosi, his desk gets all the credit. He says, just because no one got a picture of me. I pulled down my pants and rubbed my ass on her desk. Yeah, how come I don't get the credit? He is getting prosecuted, but but he says how to understand who he is. You said Did you see the movie 300 Zack Snyder bloodfest 300 Spartans against Persian hordes. He says, unlike that guy, one one man survives. And I'm like, actually, most of you survived January 6, he said, Last Man Standing to tell Ashley Babbitt's story. Sure. He doesn't even write down to the Civil War when they say Civil War. All of us as Americans, unless we're born somewhere else, or have done some war reporting. We don't we're talking about a metaphor. And we we have we have civil war movies, we have gory and things like that. And then we have the militia guys, and they're playing reels of Red Dawn over and over in your head. You're a little younger, you may not remember red.

Jordan (00:34:33.000)

Remember Red Dawn, whoa.

Jeff Sharlet (00:34:36.000)

Wolverines. Right. Right Patrick Swayze up in the mountains and you know, gonna fight for freedom, which is not how it's gonna be. Although some people will do some damage on the way. Pretending it is.

Jordan (00:34:47.000)

Yeah, I mean, anytime you're talking to somebody about a civil war at no point in time, are they like now? How do we secure supply lines across 2000 Fucking miles of this dumb country? What are you talking? About a civil war

Jeff Sharlet (00:35:02.000)

these militia guys are saying like oh yeah it's cool Bob you you get the AR 15 What I'm really going to work on is a blankets that's gonna be my that's gonna be my part of the fascist how many battlefield

Jordan (00:35:13.000)

medics Do you have? That said,

Jeff Sharlet (00:35:16.000)

this is a way this is a way that liberals reassure themselves right they look at these militia guys in the book I go I meet a militia commander in Wisconsin. I go to a militia church in Nebraska militia church in California. You go to Warren bobberts shooters restaurant in Colorado. It's called shooters. It's Hooters with guns. That's the theme. Militia guys, and it's

Jordan (00:35:42.000)

a Glock, Glock 45. Glock 40.

Jeff Sharlet (00:35:45.000)

Rox, Glock nine Glock nine is the burger I had said I don't know gun. Yes. And there was one you can also ever you can get a Glock moly. Aside of guacamole with any can't

Jordan (00:35:56.000)

use the same pun twice adds up. No,

Jeff Sharlet (00:35:59.000)

it's different. Blah, fine. Grace are boldly using different ways. Refuse. Wait, are you telling me that Lauren burgers thought she was

Jordan (00:36:10.000)

I don't think the far right is that creative? I'm gonna go

Jeff Sharlet (00:36:12.000)

out oh, oh, I do. That's actually an argument of the book except, you know, stories. So I'm not like coming out. And I think one of the things that frightens me and the reason I go back to those imaginative moments of the past with Harry Belafonte is as I'm driving around the country I photographer to photograph maybe two or three different 100 variations of fascist flags. There are just as many progressive flags pride flags in particular, it's all the same flag. I have one. I bought it from I hate to say Amazon. Most people do cross 1499. And these people are stitching their own flags. They are painting silos. They are I've seen trees carved into totems, right. There is it's fascist American. Americana. And it's I have a friend is Smithsonian collector, a curator and he's collecting this stuff because this is the folk art of America right now. That's scary. That shows you that the energy of that movement. I mean, Dom imagination telling

Jordan (00:37:21.000)

me that Ken Burns is gonna make a documentary about fucking memes. The memes are the least that's why I'm saying the memes. No, no, no, I know. I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying. It

Jeff Sharlet (00:37:32.000)

would be as best. I we had Ken Burns here at Dartmouth. Teach at Dartmouth College. We had Ken Ken burn

Jordan (00:37:41.000)

Oh named Robert Jesus.

Jeff Sharlet (00:37:45.000)

job man. Ken Burns and Verner Hertzog came in and did a thing. And to me, these are two very unlike filmmakers, and I was kind of excited because I thought Verner Hertzog was going to come out and just sort of crunch in and gobble up. Ken Burns with his bowl cut, you know, and he sort of does, it comes out says, he says, I have such respect for your film belongs can your sense of the visual, of course we know that your words don't matter. And Ken Burns sort of nods. And it's sort of like it was like it's weighing Yeah, just doing like, and now and I'm gonna Eric and story really is the sort of subversive thing going on underneath and I'm digressing a little bit but I do think like that sensibility is how we have to understand the creativity of fascism. Right? Right. The words are dumb, right?

Jordan (00:38:40.000)

That's also why I don't think you're digressing because the next part of that is the connection I see to Trump rallies to then the reality TV show influencer Pastor Rich vous church nonsense, which the moment you said that that was yays pastor that I was like, oh shit, yeah, of course. He's a fucking Nazi. What are we doing? Why are we waiting on this one? But yeah, so when you when you get into that connection of that creativity, I'm speaking more of like this style, which is about 10 years behind. Do you know what I mean? Like, like a Christian rock song is about 10 years behind rock song, that kind of feeling. So this this Christian reality TV show influencer, I want you to kind of talk way more about him because that guy is insane.

Jeff Sharlet (00:39:29.000)

Yeah, that's that's part of so the undertone of the title, right? Is this idea that even before what I call the Trump have seen this age of Trump, right, and, and I should clarify, for those out there. It's like, well, I don't think Trump's gonna last. It doesn't matter. I met a prophetic pastor in Omaha, fairly prominent figure in that in that world, says Trump is coming back whether the man himself or his spirit in the body of another and I think that's a good way of understanding how fascist movements work, right. But of the undertone, this didn't start on 2016 Of course. I mean, this is why I've been reporting on Right Wing movements you saw these currents and one of them was this church called Vu in Miami. Which I originally went to write about for GQ magazine and they were so disappointed when I showed up because I you know, listeners can't hear but this is maybe my most fashionable shave

Jordan (00:40:19.000)

wanted you to be like GQ. Hell no.

Jeff Sharlet (00:40:23.000)

Beautiful there.

Jordan (00:40:24.000)

Oh, gorgeous. Okay, okay.

Jeff Sharlet (00:40:26.000)

Oh my god boo people are gorgeous and superstar. I mean, this is this is Kanye, his pastor Justin Bieber's pastor. That's who they hang out with this sneaker, you know, they went $1,000 sneakers they are they they like to do? That's right. That's right. reality show called a rich and faith Kanye design the cover years ago of Pastor Rich's book. And part of what they preach is the very explicitly is something called a prosperity gospel. Which, you know, is this idea that what God really wants is for health and wealth for you to be rich. And the way for that to happen is to you kick up to your pastor, the more Rolls Royces your pastors have, the more somehow that's going to make your life better. Yep. They've got that but they've got to also with about being beautiful, and they openly speak this and sort of say, Pastor, he just like nothing bad has ever happened to me in my life. He was never lost, always found always blast born rich, lives rich. That's the way to go has a Bible study, but nobody brings their Bible because they just read Seven Habits of Highly Successful People.

Jordan (00:41:34.000)

That's a better religion.

Jeff Sharlet (00:41:37.000)

Wherever it is, and it's a prelude to Trump. It's a prelude to Trump in that sense, because I think the religiosity of Trump also gets misunderstood. He's obviously not pious, yes. But Norman Vincent Peale, the mid century, predecessor to this crap, a business man's religion. Trump has three mentors, His Father from whom he learned strength, and by strength I mean, you know, asshole, worry. But like be a brute, the mafia. Red Scare warrior, Roy Cohn from whom he learns cunning. And Norman Vincent Peale, from whom he learns positivity, Norman Vincent Peale, one of the best sellers of all time, the power of positive thinking and you like Trump positivity? Yes, Trump believes he can do anything. And combines that with cutting and brutality. In fact, look what he did. You know, he's, he is able to sort of put that into action. And what it is, is a stripped down talk about collectivist, I mean, it is the banality of evil. You take this scripture, and you just strip it down into so it's nothing but a power guide. So that was there, and the church is rippling, long before Trump and that's part of it that was part pulling us out to see out to this fascist place.

Jordan (00:43:01.000)

Right? Well, that's the that's the other thing I want to talk about is that when you when you describe this as American fundamentalism, I love that term. Because this is not even some this is not 100 years old, this is not 200 years old, this goes back to the slave Bible, you know, this is 500 years old. That type of connection that we have to this. And I mean, it's going straight from, I suppose let me put it this way. To me there is a direct line from the slave Bible to Elam and the men's rights activist monsters that you that you talk about, like, and one of the lines that that fucking stuck with me from those assholes was Oh, shit, I gotta, I gotta find it. It was something along the lines of oh, the thing you wrote was they couldn't decide on the age of consent, as if they had any business having any input on the age of consent like this is none of these assholes should be as far away from anyone, let alone someone below the age of 18. As as humanly possible. So when you when you tell that that kind of story like that is, to me that rewriting of this bullshit nonsense in order to accommodate your monstrosity, you know, like I see Elam as a monster.

Jeff Sharlet (00:44:31.000)

Yes. And I think that's, that's a big part of what Trump ism does is it gave people a license to be their worst selves. And there's something incredibly relaxing about that. Something like you know, someone like Ashley Babbitt, Obama voted Democrat or whole life someone who stood up for people and things. Some things in her life are starting to go wrong starting to get into debt, things hadn't worked out, and it's not just she could keep trying to be a good person, but then Trump came in She looked at the homeless people around to the Southern California, a lot of homelessness. Sometimes, some guy craps in her yard, and she could try to be compassionate or she could just give in church. And then comes this very, very successful man. And he says, Yes. And that's not just about racism. It's also I think, about misogyny. And that's so the men's rights movement. This is a report on so many right wing movements over the years. They're always more interesting than the caricature, except for these guys. Yeah, these guys are actually dumber than their character and their caricature is idiotic. These guys, there are real issues that they could raise, like, suicide is wildly higher amongst men, and you could talk about incarceration, we could talk about poverty, draft and all these kinds of things. Instead, they get together and these are the people that we now know is in cells, and they talk about their, their ex wives and ex girlfriends and the girlfriends they never had. I was out there with them. Shortly after Elliot Rodger called himself the supreme gentleman, and was so indignant that the women of the world had not recognized this and rewarded him with a tall blonde girlfriend. It's not just a girlfriend they want it has to be a certain type.

Jordan (00:46:19.000)

So to be a servant,

Jeff Sharlet (00:46:22.000)

to be a servant, and and it must be a Barbie doll, right? And and so he killed six people. And so I go out to this convention these guys have in Detroit, and this is now we all know the term red pill. But these guys were red pilling the essays called whole bottle red pills. Sure, they were borrowing that from the Matrix. They're also really inspired by American Beauty. That Sam Mendes movie with Kevin Spacey

Jordan (00:46:49.000)

Yeah, he jerks off in the shower. We all remember that.

Jeff Sharlet (00:46:53.000)

I didn't remember that part. But thank you I know now you fucking do. You know now no different parts of the movie hit different, each of us in different ways. But

Jordan (00:47:03.000)

that's the funny that's a very funny thing to say to me.

Jeff Sharlet (00:47:08.000)

But so but so they these guys, they're misogyny at the time though. This was 2014 was a little bit I mean, misogyny is not is a big part of American life, but their extreme misogyny. Like let's lean into it. National beat a bitch day is one of the things let's be let's not try at all to be decent. But also let's be victims were the ones you know, with white man as a hardest thing to be in America, this kind of crap right? There the

Jordan (00:47:41.000)

Kipling would disagree. It was it was way way back when that it was hard to be a white man.

Jeff Sharlet (00:47:46.000)

Rudyard Kipling would have thought these guys are too much and are assholes. Really. They're kind of now they're kind of antique right? Because that misogyny became the ethos of the Republican Party. Not just the sexism that had always been there but I look at there's a chapter in the book traveling around Wisconsin after Dobbs after the downfall of of Roe. And talking Wisconsin became the the only blue state where abortion was completely illegal, reverted the 1849 law. And it's also happens to be kind of a militia state. A lot of folks out there, it's well armed state, as is Vermont where I live. I'm not casting aspersions. Sure. But what was interesting when I would talk to these men about abortion, and they saw it as a great victory. These were not pious dudes at all. And it's almost like outlawing abortion was not really about saving the babies. It was about saving the babies in their their mind. But also we know it's about controlling women. And then I think they experienced it as almost sort of sexually exciting. There was a guy named Brian Bushman, he was celebrating the day I met him, his much younger wife was sort of, she's sitting down and an old woman, the old woman and his younger girlfriend, stand up so he and his buddy can sit down to talk, right? You know, just the the man spread, sits there with his beverage. I don't know what's in it. He's, he's pretty tipsy, I think in talking about this. And his, his, his, his girl there. I'm calling her girls, she's a woman, but this is what she's been. She has to stand submissively behind him and giggle at the most vulgar things that these guys are saying. And I think that's, it's, it's a little bit like sometimes on the left we argue like is, is Trumpism and fascism. Is it race or class or gender and what? Yes, this is the intersectionality of fascism. Fascism presses on all fronts,

Jordan (00:49:48.000)

right? I mean, it to me it is it is very much original sin in the sense that the original sin is the The Bible insists that man gave birth to a woman instead of the other way around. And that that is the fundament of all of the things that we're dealing with is that fight

Jeff Sharlet (00:50:09.000)

over? Who was first never thought of it. I've never heard a quaint phrase like that. But you're right.

Jordan (00:50:14.000)

Yeah, nobody has.

Jeff Sharlet (00:50:16.000)

That's, that's kind of, I mean, in so many ways, and the way that whiteness works in America, too, and I'm sort of writing about this is, you know, white grievance sort of claims as its own every pain that it inflicts on others. The man, you know, these the men's rights guys who are saying it's actually us who are the victims of oppression? And, and, you know, there's right that's sort of built right there in the Bible. That dude was the first mom and yep, yes, you're right. It's

Jordan (00:50:50.000)

funny start, ya know, and I've had, I've had a lot of conversations with, funnily enough with other comedians that are along similar lines of like, trying to figure out why it is that white men have a need to be victims while attacking others. And it is a sublimation realistically of their admittance that they have it coming. Right. So here's what you're saying. When you're a white man claiming to be a victim, you're saying that, I admit, if these things were done, then this is a reasonable response. Right? Yeah. So what you're saying is, if I did those things, it is reasonable for black people to murder me the way that I am saying, I have the right to for them, they're telling on themselves. Now, the problem there is nobody really wants to murder them. And that's the issue, you know. But that's, that's, that's one of the one of the things that I wanted to get into. I don't know how much time you have left. But what I would like to combine with that is your discussion of Gnosticism. And the way that that somehow of all things influences these lunatics if that, if that makes sense. So get into the the kind of gnostic gospels that they inexplicably respect.

Jeff Sharlet (00:52:20.000)

So, so that, you know, the book is organized in threes, just because that's the magic number. And this soul, there's three songs, Harry Bell found a Dale on hope dream on Aerosmith. It's great song. Sure. And on vanity, I like it. I grew up on it.

Jordan (00:52:41.000)

It's, it's okay. I've not I mean,

Jeff Sharlet (00:52:43.000)

I just I used to because at Trump rallies was part of the playlist and when it was on, some people would spin around, and I did too. I have a video that's spinning, standing in the middle of the stadium and the sun spinning. Listen to the song and show the ecstasy of joining the group. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And of dreaming in the sort of the dream politics of fascism, which is, I think, important to understand. It's, it's, you don't argue, right? You can't fact check a myth, right? You can't. You can't. There's no argument with Alex Jones. They're in a dream space. It's a nightmare to Spitz. But there's also three theological movements in the beginning. I think Trump in 2016 opened the door of fascism of full fascism with a prosperity like gospel, right. And by 2020 it it turned darker because of Q anon because of the death of COVID and so much more. And, and I started going to his rallies and, and people were telling me that and I never go as press press stays in a pen, it's,

Jordan (00:53:46.000)

ya know, you're gonna get hit. Yeah.

Jeff Sharlet (00:53:49.000)

Well, no, not really getting here. In fact, the only hitting here

Jordan (00:53:54.000)

is a metaphorical term. Yeah, you know, you're going to there's going to be consequences for doing that, that you have to avoid in order to achieve your job. Yeah, so I

Jeff Sharlet (00:54:03.000)

did actually hit an old lady at a Trump rally broke out near me, and I fell backwards and I was like, Whoa, I was in the fight. And then I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm, I'm an I am the secret Jew. Journalists, amongst them, causing violence and witches by 2020, which they were at they were at Gnosticism their actual secrets, that Trump's tweets matters. These people wearing T shirts to Trump's tweets matters and they believe that every misspelling every weird capitalization is code.

Jordan (00:54:39.000)

Oh, it's over ology and Kabbalah numerology? Yeah,

Jeff Sharlet (00:54:42.000)

yes. And then Trump himself starts alluding to it there's a chapter after that tick tock is Q anon term when Trump start to cross over into his own car and he started believing his own con more Ingram is trying to rope him back, and he's saying, there are dark shadows, dark horses, and she's like Oh, you mean like Obama's people? And he goes no. Above them. You don't even know their names. And she's like, you can see she's like, like, Oh, he's this is no, we're supposed to be peddling this. We're not, we're not, you know, right. We're using our own supply. We're not selling this stuff, not not. But he's he's crossed over. And it is a kind of Gnosticism and the Gnosticism as a parallel as a metaphor, which some of the qanon people embrace. It makes a lot of sense. Gnosticism believes that the official apparatus of the church, right, this is ancient Christian heresy. The Dead Sea Scrolls for people don't know, of course, the path of Christianity didn't take. In fact, it didn't take partly because it's anti institutional. Well, was

Jordan (00:55:41.000)

that and also Jesus killed a bunch of dragons one time and then one time Jesus murdered another kid when he was a kid, and then just brought it back. And it was like no big deal. So there were a lot of weirdo things in the in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Jeff Sharlet (00:55:52.000)

Yeah, it just didn't catch on. But now the second chance is America's a second chance place and it would describe as bishops, the bishops and bureaucrats is waterless canals empty. So what is the deep state? What are the rhinos waterless canals? And so I thought that was the sort of thing now, that was phase two. Each phase it doesn't leave behind the prosperity just adds when Ashley Babbitt was killed and washi. so central to the book on January 6, we entered theologically into the Trump scenes age of martyrs. Although I would argue that Ashley Babbitt was always going to be a placeholder until Trump could climb up on the cross himself. And now he here he is about to be arrested right before Easter. You know, if you probably don't know if in your line of work, you sign up for Trump emails I do. And once you sign up, you can never stop them. Oh, fuck

Jordan (00:56:47.000)

no, I haven't signed up for Trump. I don't I've never I honestly, the last time I listened to Trump was when Dan played it on the show a clip of a speech. I haven't listened to him since he became Oh, good, good, good. I just I just I don't need it. I don't need it. And it doesn't help. And I clearly my opinions have not changed over that time period in any way that they would have been affected by Trump.

Jeff Sharlet (00:57:11.000)

I think so the reason I do it, and the reason I think it helps us is that a lot of the political class dismisses much of what Trump does as just theater. Sure. And what do you say to me? The answer is, what do you mean just wouldn't mean just theater theater is is quite I

Jordan (00:57:29.000)

mean, the whole thing is theater, though.

Jeff Sharlet (00:57:32.000)

That's the power of it. And they'll go to,

Jordan (00:57:35.000)

if you if you're if you're a political Congressman of some sort, and you say that all he does is theater, then you have to acknowledge every time that you hold a vote, to try and get people on the record for some shit. You're just playing theater. It's all theater.

Jeff Sharlet (00:57:50.000)

But But that's, that in itself is not a bad thing. Harry Belafonte is just theater to perform an act powerful, exact making is powerful. What kind of story what kind of myth? Are you going to tell? So if you go to a Trump rally and say, Does he really going to build the wall, you're missing the point, if you say, who's gonna win DeSantis or Trump, you're missing the point Fascism is going to win. It's telling a story about who we are. Right. And it's a story that, you know,

Jordan (00:58:16.000)

drag him off like I was, I was denigrating that. And actually, what I was trying to say is that that is the power, right?

Jeff Sharlet (00:58:23.000)

Yeah, that's what that's why Alex Jones partly was able to gain so much power, because so many of traditional political analysts thought well, that's just crazy and absurd. And it's just, you know, it's just theater. It's just for show.

Jordan (00:58:35.000)

There's no other show.

Jeff Sharlet (00:58:38.000)

People want to show and I want to show to, you know, Joan Didion, the writers that famously says, we tell ourselves stories in order to live, and sometimes it gets taken as like, oh, isn't that wonderful? The Never Ending Story. Well, Joan Didion had a pretty dark sensibility. Depends on what kind of stories you tell. And I have a very intensive fix. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead.

Jordan (00:59:02.000)

I have a very, very specific and personal story about Joe Didion's at that line. When I was in high school, my my English teacher was ill advised and teaching me it was a terrible idea. He shouldn't have done that. But what he did was he translated that into what he called the lifeline. You know, the thing that you tell yourself in order to get through the day, and when he his story of that was one day, when I was 19. I had the courage after a fight with my father to tell him what I knew was his life's lie. And he didn't he obviously didn't tell me that story. But the next thing he said was, he took a swing at me and we haven't spoken since. You know, like to him that was what Joan Didion was saying is that there is something along your life that if someone really challenges it's either you change or you die ah, I'm not saying he was a great Joan Didion scholar.

Jeff Sharlet (01:00:04.000)

Yeah

Jeff Sharlet (01:00:06.000)

well yeah, I don't know. I mean Joan Didion was not a good source for self help advice. I mean, I I love Joan Didion thrilled with his book the first couple of reviews compared to Joan Didion and, and one of them says Charlotte as much of a mess as as Joan Didion and it's true because when I was young, you know some when I was just getting started writing a lot of dudes wanted to be Hunter Thompson and wasn't my thing. Joan Didion though is like I want to get big giant sunglasses and develop migraines so I can be like her. I still want to do publicity photo, I'm gonna I'm gonna recreate her famous. You know, for those who haven't seen her she's a tiny elfin, very glamorous, beautiful woman. And there's a famous photo of her in front of a Corvette, and I want to reproduce it with the exact same outfit. And I involved and but, but the point of that is is also I think that is significant. And not to say that my writings like Joan duty and I wish but it's not and then I don't wish I don't try and write like Joan Didion. Yeah, I was gonna say, I think what they were identifying, though was Hunter Thompson was a mess, too. But he wrote with great great bravado. And Joan Didion was was a mess. And, you know, her body was was taking the temperature constantly have the distress and decay around her. And you know, as I'm driving back and forth the country, I happen to live with a pretty serious heart condition. So my travels are limited by how many heart pills I have with me, you know?

Jeff Sharlet (01:01:43.000)

And you know, there's a scary moment in a militia church in Nebraska. Yeah, God

Jordan (01:01:50.000)

damn, you're bringing it up. Before I was about to I was literally about to get into? Do you want to know what the section of my questioning was called? would call of Indiana Jones. So this is this is where we get into your story, you've had a gun pulled on you. This, this book reads similarly to here's let me try and describe what I would describe how this book reads. It reads like somebody is watching a person LARP, the Davinci Code, who accidentally gets caught up in a different DaVinci Code. Like it is it is fascinating to me to watch you because you're you're following along with all these conspiracy theorists and all these people who think all of this crazy shit is going to happen at any given point in time. And then you go to a church and somebody pulls a gun on you, you know, like, you're you're living more of that story that they think they're living, then you've got a heart condition. You're going around, you're you're meeting people who are I mean, it's a it's a it's a fantastic story. And I'm wondering, if you feel like, well, clearly from your reaction, you do not feel like that at all. Oh, no, no, no.

Jeff Sharlet (01:03:05.000)

No, I thought it was very funny. LARPing DaVinci Code. I mean, but because it's what's there, you know, I mean, exactly.

Jeff Sharlet (01:03:18.000)

I don't as a reporter, like sort of say, Okay, I'm going to make appointments with all the key players. I've done that in my life and this is not, and I respect that I actually probably a lot of people hate Maggie Haberman, I find things she brings us some valuable news. She does access journalism. Absolutely. And New York Times and finds out stuff right people hate her for it because she does access journalism show access to the powerful but I you know, for the long as I just drove I just drove and like what you know, it's a road trip story, which is is a very traditional story. Instead of going west. I went

Jordan (01:03:56.000)

nothing like Hunter S Thompson. Yeah.

Jeff Sharlet (01:03:59.000)

Well, I certainly you know, the only drugs I was taking was, you know, a statin from my cholesterol.

Jordan (01:04:06.000)

Whatever you got to take to get you through the day, man. I'm not gonna judge you for taking controlled substances. Yeah, you know,

Jeff Sharlet (01:04:13.000)

but what Hunter Thompson look Hunter Thompson there are there's great things he did, but it was there's a lot of machismo in his work. If he gets a gun pointed at him. He's gonna point a gun back at you. You know, good point. I have this gun pointed at me. And I'm like, God, damn, what am I doing here? degrees. I know my blood pressure is high. I have been around these situations enough to understand that, you know, when a dude puffs up his chest and sticks out his chin, you're probably okay because the one who's sticking out his chin is not going to hit you. No one is like volunteering their chin when it kind of curls in. As like this is a bad situation. And these people are not afraid to hit me. They're not afraid to call the cops because the cops are going to be on their side. Yeah,

Jordan (01:05:00.000)

you're the Hollywood Harry Belafonte. And this consummate, if

Jeff Sharlet (01:05:03.000)

I was if I was Hunter Thompson, I'd be like, this is fantastic. They're gonna throw me in jail, it's gonna make my book a best seller. And I'm just like, I have a heart, I have a heart condition. I have kids, I gotta go. And, and I got out of there. And you know, not only that I also had in my car, as I'm traveling, my my stepmother died in 2021. And she was living in Colorado with her with her son. And they, I was they saved a portion of the ashes for me to take home for my kids. And so, you know, I was driving I had those ashes in the car, like, I can't go to jail. I've got those ashes and and that made me think of, you know, what Hunter Thompson was not attuned to grief. And I think this is the under there are so

Jordan (01:05:51.000)

many answers, but I like grief, Grief is a good one.

Jeff Sharlet (01:05:56.000)

But then, I think in a lot of grief is the undercurrent of this book. I can't think of how many of these churches I've been to where where they don't believe in climate crisis. So they talk about God and drought right? But they're they're feeling the loss as we all are feeling all these losses, but grief that is not processed processes, bad word grief, that is not mourned it curdles and it turns inward, and it turns sour, and it turns rotten, and it drives Ashley Babbitt out of her beautiful Southern California home where she she's she has avocado trees and lemon trees, you go to the beach, and instead she's in the cold, you know, walking to the Capitol with a knife. People say she's unarmed, the cover the book, that's her knife. That's the evidence photo. If you look closely, it says one 621 who was taking that day? Yeah, it's a real knife that she had. This is not who she had been. She was grieving a lot of losses. And that doesn't defend her. Some people say, Oh, you just saying no man, the one who passes we all have pain, the one who passes their pain onto another. That's when we turn. That's that's the evil part.

Jordan (01:07:05.000)

Right? Right. When we when I, when I talked to Mike Rothschild just a short bit ago, you know, we got into the concept of Q anon not starting with a conspiracy, the theory and starting with a medical bill, you know, and that can be sometimes too reductive. Because one thing that you go into a book is, there's a fuck ton of medical bills. These are people who choose this flavor of response to it. It is not as though it's not as though they're just funneled into monstrosity. This is the flavor of response that they appreciate that they feel good about.

Jeff Sharlet (01:07:42.000)

Anger feels good. It feels as it did for Ashley, it felt like love. Right? You would see her in some of her videos that she would make. She'd be driving around, ranting furious. And then she would describe herself as just feel so filled with joy, like she had never been right. Yeah. And and if you've been around mania, you can recognize some of that. But that's not to pathology,

Jordan (01:08:03.000)

bipolar type one. So I have no idea what you're talking about. No, right. Right.

Jeff Sharlet (01:08:07.000)

But, but I think that that's another temptation. People say, Well, these people this is national psychosis. No, it's not right. Anyone who's who's who's who's dealt with real mental illness knows, no, these You're right. These are people you don't choose. If you're bipolar, you don't choose a manic episode. Oh, absolutely not. These people do choose. They do make choices. They say this feels good. I'm going to embrace that.

Jordan (01:08:29.000)

Jeff, I would love to keep talking to you more, I know that you have to go. So would it be possible for us to do a part two to this interview? Is that okay?

Jeff Sharlet (01:08:37.000)

I would I would appreciate that. I feel like I've got some more to learn from you. And we got to talk more about LARPing the Davinci Code. Wonderful. That in that case so much. We will

Jordan (01:08:50.000)

we will talk again soon. Your book is the undertow. Now it's already out, right?

Jeff Sharlet (01:08:54.000)

It's out? Yeah. Okay, so

Jordan (01:08:56.000)

it's out so people can't preorder is there? Is there a way for people to find it that supports you directly? Because our audience is very, very specific about that kind of

Jeff Sharlet (01:09:05.000)

the best place to find it is your local independent bookstore if you've got one, or if you don't book shop.org, sort of as a coalition of independent bookstores or you library ask your library to get a copy. If you must, there's that big company named after a river. But, you know, part of building a democratic culture is bookstores and libraries, though it's no accident that they're under attack right now. So you know, a

Jordan (01:09:31.000)

line with your support. You're in line. Well, Sara, thank you so much for hanging out. I'll say that I'm neither Neo Leo nor DCX clerk. I'm not Darrell rendus. And I am neither and I'm not the juiciest Ice Cube. Andy in Kansas, you're on the here. Thanks for holding. So Alex, I'm a first time caller. I'm a huge fan. I love your work.