Transcript/657: Chatting With Elizabeth Williamson

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N-N-N-N-N-N-N-Knowledge Fight

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Damn, Ed, Jordan, I am sweating

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Knowledgefight.com, it's time to pray

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I have great respect for Knowledgefight

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Knowledgefight

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I'm sick of them posing as if they're the good guys

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Shang, we are the bad guys, Knowledgefight

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Dan and Jordan, Knowledgefight

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Riddle her, riddle her, riddle her

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Need, I need money, riddle her, riddle her

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Andy and Kansas, Andy and, Andy and

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Stop it, Andy and, Andy and Kansas

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It's time to pray

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Andy and Kansas, you're on the air, thanks for holding

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Hello Alex, I'm a fifth-time caller, I'm a huge fan

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I love your work

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Knowledgefight

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N-N-N-N-N-Knowledgefight.com

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I love you

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Hey everybody, welcome back to Knowledgefight, I'm Dan

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I'm Jordan

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We're a couple dudes, let's sit around worship at the altar of Selene

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And talk a little bit about Alex Jones

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Oh indeed we are, Dan

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Jordan

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Dan

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Jordan

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Quick question

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Sup

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What's your bright spot?

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My bright spot today, Jordan, is that people have been having a little bit of a field day with Alex's framed meme

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I have enjoyed it quite a bit myself

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There's been some fun repurposing of that as a meme format

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Alex holding up the framed meme and replacing it with album covers and what have you

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A lot of fun, a lot of fun

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Yeah, they've uh

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If we were smart at all, we would try to find some way to like make this trend or something on Twitter

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We would, instead of me just being like, oh this is fun

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This is fun

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At the beginning of our show, I would go out and try and like

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People do do that, they create those memes and then it goes viral and then they get all the attention

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It has never occurred to me that we could try to do that

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It just did right now for me

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Only in the sense of like, that's not what we did

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No, it kind of makes me feel gross to think about artificially trying to do

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My bright spot is ruined

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No, your bright spot's amazing because everybody chose to do it of their own accord with no inspiration from us whatsoever

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A lot of fun

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It's amazing

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What's yours?

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What's your bright spot?

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My bright spot, Dan, is uh

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The news has just come out, Taskmaster is releasing its own service

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Are you talking about Stone Cold Steve Austin's former character, the Task-

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I am not talking about Stone Cold Steve Austin's former character, the Ringmaster

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Not Taskmaster

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Taskmaster is a British kind of game show thing

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And what happens is they get five comedians or personalities from TV or whatever

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And then over the course of a few months, they have to do these tasks

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So they'll have this task like, put these three balls at the top of the hill, right?

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And they'll try and have to, they'll have to do it

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Yeah, you've mentioned this a couple of times in the past

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It seems like a fun game

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It's fucking amazing

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And I think what I've realized, because whenever they put this news out and then I rewatched a little bit

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I was like, Dan, you and I need to be doing the Taskmaster, it's you and me

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You're Greg Davies, I'm Alex Horn, it's the same dynamic

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Wait, we should be hosting it?

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Yeah

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Oh okay, yeah, I don't want to be on it

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Reverse it, because you do all the work like Alex Horn

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And Greg Davies, like me, does fuck all, but talk loudly and annoy people, really

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Okay

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So I think we can handle it

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Yeah, I'm in

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I like this job offer

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Yeah, I'm giving it to you right now, buddy

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Just a quick correction, I do apologize

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Stone Cold Steve Austin was the Ringmaster

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The Taskmaster was Kevin Sullivan's character

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Ooh, Dan

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Previously in the WCW

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It's a good thing you corrected yourself

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So I would get a lot of emails about that

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It would be trouble

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Also, there's talk that Stone Cold Steve Austin's coming back for WrestleMania

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I heard that

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Oh hell yeah

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How is it that I hear about that?

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Uh, this

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And that's the bottom line

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That's a terrible Stone Cold impression

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I know, I love it

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What?

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Uh, very fun, very fun

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The idea that something from, I guess, my childhood or my youth

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might be able to see Stone Cold stun somebody

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I guess he has come back a couple times and just, like, beat up people

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Yeah, I mean, you...

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Like, at a couple of WrestleManias I remember from sort of recent times

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Not having a match or anything, just coming out and giving someone a stunner

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You run in, you wear a vest, you kick somebody in the gut

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You give them a stunner and then you get out of there

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That's the greatest gig in the world

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Yeah, yeah

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It's even better when you consider the payday

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Oh, yeah

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That's how much you get probably making

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Mm-hmm

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Um, so anyway, we'll enjoy Stone Cold coming back when that happens

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But, Jordan, today we have an episode to present to the folks

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Yeah

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Uh, we were thrilled to sit down and have an interview with Elizabeth Williamson

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Author of the new book Sandy Hook, An American Tragedy

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Oh, yeah

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Um, and it was a lot of fun

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It was

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We'll get down to business on presenting this interview here in a second

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But first, gotta say hello to some new wonks

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I think it's a great idea

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So first, Paul Joseph Watson's distressingly red lips

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Thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk

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I'm a policy wonk

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Thank you very much

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Thank you

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Next, Jim Dandy, thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk

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I'm a policy wonk

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Thank you very much

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Thank you

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Next, Dan, it's about time you finally married my aunt, Love Michael, not me

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It's a different Dan, just to be clear

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I'm a policy wonk

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You're now a policy wonk

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Thank you very much

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Next, Rod and Amanda are celebrating 18 years of marriage with only four anniversaries

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It's a riddle, thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk

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I'm a policy wonk

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February 29th, baby

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Yep, I believe so

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Yep

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Next, Jermaine, it's Adam, and oh my god, mama who's baby boy is here

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Thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk

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I'm a policy wonk

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A lot of wrestling so far

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Never a bad time for mankind

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And my nickname in university was the number 23

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Thank you so much, you are now a policy wonk

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I'm a policy wonk

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Thank you very much

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Thank you all

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And thank you to Elizabeth Williamson for taking some time out to chat with us about her new book

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Very lovely

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Also, it is now available in stores

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Indeed it is

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And online

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It's a good book?

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Yeah, we'll have a link up on the page where we release

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I guess

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There'll be a link somewhere

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There'll be somewhere

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Well, maybe we'll post it

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Yeah, sure

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Um, so please enjoy this interview

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Toodaloo

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Hello, welcome joining us today, this is very exciting

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A rare guest

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Indeed

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Adding to the pantheon of a couple of guests that we've had

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Most shows after 670-odd episodes have more than three

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True

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We buck conventions and have nobody

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I think largely because you and I don't want to inflict other people with the content that we talk about

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And I think that most people don't want to talk about those things

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And so people who are immersed in this world are kind of rare to interact with

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And luckily today we have somebody who has immersed herself in this world

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Very much so

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A writer for the New York Times and actually has a new book that is coming out called

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Sandy Hook, An American Tragedy and the Battle for Truth

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Elizabeth Williamson, thank you for joining us here today

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Hey Dan, hey Jordan, it's so nice to be with you guys

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Welcome to this awful content podcast

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Yeah, yeah, yeah

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It's a tragic sort of subject matter that we all cover and that's kind of fitting

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Because your book is related to sort of tragic topics

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Yeah

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Absolutely, yeah you guys immersed yourselves in Alex Jones' coverage of, if you could call it that

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Sandy Hook from the very beginning

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Yeah, we made that mistake for our mental states

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Yeah, and lives and you know just general cynicism has taken hold

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Yeah

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You know, I had hope before

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Yeah, it was an interesting ride certainly watching all of the stuff from late 2012 onward

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And I imagine that you've probably had, well maybe not the exact same, but fairly similar experience

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Diving into a lot of this material

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Yeah, in fact I first got to know both of you, your work that is and your show

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Because Lenny Posner, who is the father of Noah Posner, the youngest Sandy Hook victim

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Recommended that I listen to your podcast sort of going back and taking a look at what Alex Jones said on the day of the shooting

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So that was how I first became acquainted with you both and had that whole show transcribed

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And you know kind of really studied what you had to say about it

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Let's see, let me see if I remember some of the things I said about it

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I believe he's a trash human made of garbage and feces, did that one go into the book?

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That did not go into the book Jordan, I did not quote you on that

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Alright, okay

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It is a little surreal to know that random things Jordan was yelling have made it into the transcript of what was research material

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That will be our, yeah, that's close told as we say here in Washington

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So that's how you sort of came upon our show, but was that in the context of you had already had it in your mind to write a book about this subject matter?

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Yes, yeah, it was, you know, I got to know Lenny obviously at the very beginning of the project

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Because he was one of two families that sued Alex Jones in Texas in the middle of 2018

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And when I saw that kind of come over the transom, you know, one of our reporters who covers breaking news put that in the paper

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And I thought, wow, that is a pretty interesting test of the First Amendment

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And at the time we were really in the middle of the very beginning of the Trump era, the concept of post truth and alternative facts

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And this just seemed like a real test on Alex Jones as you guys have documented for years

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Often claims, if not always claims the First Amendment as a defense for what he says

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And this seemed like a great test of, you know, what is free speech?

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And do your First Amendment rights cover spreading material that results in significant harm to already vulnerable people?

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That is one thing that I enjoyed about the book is, I mean, it doesn't matter how many years we're going to do this

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You still have to write out the entirety of the First Amendment, put it in the book and then remind people once again

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It only protects you from the government

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It doesn't protect you from Facebook

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Yes, I love how a lot of these people kind of say, they call it my free speech and my First Amendment

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And it's kind of ours, you know, so

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Right

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It only exists really in the context of a community

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Yeah, yeah, yeah

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Interactions

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It's more of a team amendment

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It's a promulgated thing, yeah, not the exclusive province of anyone

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Yeah, yeah, and the thing I think is really fun too is that now that has become such a meme kind of that

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Is used by people in other countries

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Yeah

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As sort of a buzzword

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You saw that with the Canadian truck organizers

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Oh, yeah

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And yeah, it's very strange how that understanding has taken off

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Well, didn't we just talk to what's-his-dumb face, the guy who's lizards, which

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David Icke

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David Icke, we just talked about David Icke and he was talking about his First Amendment rights

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And you're like, you're from Britain, man

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That's true

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I think he still lives in the UK too

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Yeah

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I don't think he's relocated

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No

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Yeah, yeah, it's very strange

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But you're somebody who I know, you were writing about Alex

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Or you had written about Alex prior to this, if I understand correctly

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Because I know that my first interaction with you was Alex yelling about you

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I had heard him complain about something you had written before we had ever spoken

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Yes

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And so I was kind of wondering, where did your exposure with him begin?

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Do you recall when you first came in contact with his content and what kicked off that path?

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Yeah, I do

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I may have heard about him a little bit during 2015

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But my first exposure to him, you know, sort of in the flesh, was during the Republican National Convention in 2016 in Cleveland

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So he and Roger Stone, and I describe this in the book, they were on the stage at the America First Unity rally on the Cuyahoga River

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On the convention, you know, sort of in the convention city, if not on the convention grounds

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And I sat down next to a woman who was a very nice, she seemed like just one of those nice women, you know

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She was sitting there, you know, had a really big smile and kind of a gentle way about her

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She was probably in her early 60s

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And I was asking her the way I was asking a lot of people who were there for that rally

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Alex Jones and Roger Stone were on the stage and I was saying, where do you get your news?

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And she was saying, Louder with Crowder, Infowars, Ben Shapiro

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And she said, you know, if you're a journalist, because I of course introduced myself as one

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She said, if you're a journalist and you're not listening to those shows, you're only getting half the story

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That makes me really sad because I can understand someone of that age cohort watching Alex, possibly

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I could see them watching Ben Shapiro because he at least presents himself as like, I'm pretending to be an intellectual

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Right, right, right, right

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The idea that someone over 25 would watch Louder with Crowder is so sad to me

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That show is the dumbest

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It's insane

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It's sophomoric attempts at comedy

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Like, I can't imagine an adult watching that

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Or conservative comedy, sophomoric attempts

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Sure, but he does like poo-poo jokes

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Yeah, exactly

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Yeah, yeah, yeah

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Yeah, he had her son with her and I would say her son was, you know, maybe 30 or so

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Maybe a little bit younger, a little bit older

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And he, they, you know, she spent, her son was disabled

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So he was in a wheelchair and they spend a lot of time together because he had a lot of difficulties

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And they would, you know, she mentioned that they'd listen to these shows on their way to doctor's appointments and things like that

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So I think they were things that he started listening to or that he was listening to for a long time

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And she kind of, you know, picked up on it from him

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At that point, it's a parent's responsibility to not adopt the kid's thing

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Yeah

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If your son jumped off a bridge, would you jump off of it too?

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Well, I mean, bridge jumping's pretty hot these days

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That's fair

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That's, there's also a nice irony to that image that you're painting of, you know, this rally involving people like Alex and Roger Stone

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Who are so staunchly opposed to like government regulations happening on the Cuyahoga River

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Which is essentially a testament to the effectiveness of the EPA

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It used to be, it used to just be shit

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That's a tragic image

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So did you, you ended up running into this protest, but is this where you, did you end up talking to Alex and Roger at the...

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No, it was a very crowded event

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There were a lot of people there, a lot of Hillary for prison t-shirts, remember those?

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Oh yeah

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And so, no, he was up on the stage and kind of in his, you know, entourage and sort of, you know, security around him and things like that

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You describe him in the book as just, him and Roger Stone as just swaggering about with their retinue

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Running around

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Yeah, acting like celebrities, like that's one of the big things that you bring up for just specifically that

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Is Alex is such a, I mean, star fucker that like he goes to those places to soak up their celebrity

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Which is such a great point of yours

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Yeah, he, it was interesting, his staffers were telling me that

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That, you know, one of them described him as, you know, he would always say, you know, as you guys know better than me

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You know, Hollywood, the root of all, you know, globalist evil

Unknown Speaker (00:17:28.079)

And at the same time, he said he was like a girl screaming after the Beatles when it came to, you know, people he was meeting at the convention

Unknown Speaker (00:17:38.079)

Oh my God, Antonio Sabato Jr. You're the best

Unknown Speaker (00:17:42.079)

He was really, and also the other thing he was doing, which is, you know, his cameraman who was with him at the time told me for the book

Unknown Speaker (00:17:50.079)

That, you know, what they were doing is, you know, making their way through media row

Unknown Speaker (00:17:55.079)

You know, they were inside rather than outside the convention barrier where, you know, Alex Jones would typically be with his bullhorn

Unknown Speaker (00:18:02.079)

You know, always on the outside of the perimeter. Instead, they were very much a part of things

Unknown Speaker (00:18:07.079)

He was definitely on the ascendant

Unknown Speaker (00:18:10.079)

They were, you know, kind of swanning through the crowd, creating provocations, you know, on media row

Unknown Speaker (00:18:16.079)

He, he crashed St. Wieger's show, The Young Terp

Unknown Speaker (00:18:19.079)

The Jimmy Dore spit on him, if I recall

Unknown Speaker (00:18:23.079)

And now they work together

Unknown Speaker (00:18:26.079)

He did, yeah, Alex Jones did wind up with spit on him that day

Unknown Speaker (00:18:30.079)

But that was all great for him because this cameraman filmed all of that and they were really looking for viral video from there and they got it

Unknown Speaker (00:18:39.079)

Yeah, that's the unfortunate thing that that strategy does tend to

Unknown Speaker (00:18:44.079)

Sure did

Unknown Speaker (00:18:45.079)

Ends up paying off

Unknown Speaker (00:18:46.079)

Yeah, there were a lot of events that I think I described him in the book as, you know, he was, he's like a shark

Unknown Speaker (00:18:53.079)

He needs attention

Unknown Speaker (00:18:55.079)

If he doesn't get it, it's like a shark swimming, you know, if he doesn't

Unknown Speaker (00:19:00.079)

Can't stay still, never sleeps

Unknown Speaker (00:19:03.079)

Yes

Unknown Speaker (00:19:04.079)

But with a shark, it's just sort of evolved that way with Alex

Unknown Speaker (00:19:07.079)

Yes

Unknown Speaker (00:19:08.079)

Because he's on stimulants

Unknown Speaker (00:19:09.079)

Yeah, well, I mean, that's a certain type of evolution

Unknown Speaker (00:19:12.079)

Yeah

Unknown Speaker (00:19:13.079)

An addiction evolves over time

Unknown Speaker (00:19:15.079)

That is true

Unknown Speaker (00:19:17.079)

So this, is this where like your first article that involved Alex come from? Is this where that sprung out?

Unknown Speaker (00:19:27.079)

Yeah, I was on the editorial board for the Times then and I wrote, you know, a short piece just on what is this, you know, alternative news ecosystem that, you know, these folks are really wired into

Unknown Speaker (00:19:42.079)

What is this Louder with Crowder that I hear people talking about?

Unknown Speaker (00:19:47.079)

Yes, indeed

Unknown Speaker (00:19:48.079)

And I really did feel like very much an outsider because, of course, as soon as that story went in the paper, I got a lot of, you know, people who listen to Ben Shapiro do not listen to Louder with Crowder and how could you put them in the same sentence and, you know, all of that

Unknown Speaker (00:20:03.079)

So, but my broader point, you know, nerdier point was just that this is a whole group of personalities and shows and sources of information that most of us have never really heard of at the New York Times and at that time

Unknown Speaker (00:20:23.079)

Yeah

Unknown Speaker (00:20:24.079)

In the intervening time, because I mean one thing that we talked about with Mark Bankston, who is a solid protagonist in your book

Unknown Speaker (00:20:36.079)

He specifically said, you know, over the years that I've absorbed myself in this case, you know, it is definitely changed some of the way that I think about things. Do you feel like this has had that kind of effect on you as well?

Unknown Speaker (00:20:51.079)

So I remember a moment with Mark Bankston and Bill Ogden

Unknown Speaker (00:20:56.079)

Name dropping

Unknown Speaker (00:20:58.079)

Another partner, do you know Bill? I don't know if Bill's been on the show. Has he been on the show?

Unknown Speaker (00:21:03.079)

He is not. We have a strong no Bill Ogden policy

Unknown Speaker (00:21:06.079)

Yeah, he gets to go on TV and Mark gets to hang out with us

Unknown Speaker (00:21:09.079)

Okay, I get it

Unknown Speaker (00:21:12.079)

I like Bill. I met him when I was down in Austin. He's great, but I also kind of like to pretend there's a feud

Unknown Speaker (00:21:19.079)

Oh, I see. Okay. All right. Well, I'm not going to step on that. But he, he told me once we, we, after one of the, you know, while I was working on the book, we went out to dinner and

Unknown Speaker (00:21:32.079)

I remember Mark went off to take a phone call and Bill was talking about how his role in the case was listening to hundreds and hundreds of hours of infowars broadcast to find the points where he references the families so that they could make sure they had every

Unknown Speaker (00:21:49.079)

reference to, you know, to the plaintiffs, to the Sandy Hook families. And he said, I was seriously starting to lose it. He said, he, he, one late, you know, late one night, he just was listening to, you know, what his 40th or 50th

Unknown Speaker (00:22:06.079)

successive infowars for our programming stint. And he was saying, Oh my God, what if he's right?

Unknown Speaker (00:22:13.079)

Yeah, that's a, that's a fairly chilling line in the book.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:16.079)

Yeah. And, and, and I thought, wow, you know, but it is true that if you, and that's the sort of frog boil of all of this, isn't it, that, you know, I mean, this, this is this form of propaganda is like Nazi times, you know, you start by with a, with a relatively

Unknown Speaker (00:22:35.079)

minor suggestion. Then you start with something a little stronger. You, you have a small lie, then you have a little bigger lie. I mean, the very first lie was about crowd sizes at the inauguration, right on the very first day.

Unknown Speaker (00:22:49.079)

And then, you know, look at the size of the lies. By the time we got to January 6th, and it really was a kind of continuum like that. And it was sort of like before we really knew it.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:01.079)

You know, we, we were looking at this and saying, this, this lie about the 2020 election was unthinkable, even a year ago, and here is a significant swath of Americans who really believe it.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:15.079)

Um, I mean, I suppose, I suppose my next question then is like, do you feel like this type of propaganda is different? Because, you know, before, before 2017, before the inauguration, it wasn't like that's the first time people were believing in things that were

Unknown Speaker (00:23:31.079)

clearly and incontrovertibly bullshit. So do you feel like this is something that you have interacted with in a different way from, let's say, other forms of propaganda?

Unknown Speaker (00:23:43.079)

So I think taking the long view, Jordan, I think the big thing, obviously, that is a big difference, certainly from the Nazi era until now, is social media.

Unknown Speaker (00:23:55.079)

And, you know, the gigantic uptake in social media, even from, you know, say, so I went back and I talked to parents of the mother of a young woman who was involved in the Virginia Tech massacre.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:13.079)

And she was saying, you know, here was a huge shooting on a college campus in a state where, you know, people would get concerned about gun policy in the aftermath of that.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:26.079)

And there just really wasn't a lot of conspiracy theorizing around that shooting. But if you look at you know how many people had a Facebook account for example in 2007 when that occurred.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:38.079)

That was 20 million people by December of 2012 when the Sandy Hook shooting happened. That number was 1 billion.

Unknown Speaker (00:24:46.079)

And I really think that that has accelerated, I mean we've all we've spoken together about some of the old cultish things and things like that. The lone guy on the subway with you know a photocopied sheet, you know about the JFK assassination or, you know,

Unknown Speaker (00:25:03.079)

people were really isolated before, and now they've found each other and they can speed whatever they come up with around the world in seconds.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:11.079)

Yeah, and I think that they like through the social media and like YouTube, like they've found really efficient ways to monetize and create businesses out of the speediness of that messaging and that's got to be like a pretty negative reinforcement.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:30.079)

Yeah, and that doesn't even, you know, you think about, you think about that change, and now there's a TikTok is so impenetrable to so many people above the age of 19.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:42.079)

Yeah, that's like my louder with Crowder.

Unknown Speaker (00:25:44.079)

Yeah, or 13, but you do see millions of views on these short videos that are all bullshit, instantly, you know, they're there and then they're gone and it sticks in your brain it's, you know, I think, I think it's impossible for humans to interact

Unknown Speaker (00:26:02.079)

with social media in a responsible way but I could be wrong.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:06.079)

Yeah, I'm kind of with you on that one, I think, you know, I do think I do see I sound like a super Midwestern Pollyanna here tonight, kind of am, but it's, I really do think that the newer generation, younger generation coming up are much more skeptical

Unknown Speaker (00:26:25.079)

about what they read on social media, and about having accounts in general. Of course there are 1000 exceptions to that, but I really do feel like, you know, I mean I have kids who are that age, and I really feel like they are much more skeptical not only

Unknown Speaker (00:26:40.079)

of what they read on there, but about having an account and what that means in general.

Unknown Speaker (00:26:45.079)

Sure, the privacy stuff has become so much more clear so yeah, you know, I think, in just my time, since I was in college, you know, Facebook went from the Facebook, where it was the thing where only college students were on it to being

Unknown Speaker (00:27:01.079)

like open and kind of like this interesting way that you could like promote events and there's all kinds of possibilities to it to now. It's like your grandma's on there and she's sending you chain emails.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:15.079)

In addition to the privacy concerns becoming more clear, the evolution of what this is has changed, and to your point Jordan where you were bringing up the, it seems like TikTok is kind of like a place where there is a newer sense of it.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:34.079)

It's migrated a little bit to that, but I wonder if what you're saying Elizabeth is that you feel like some of these like younger folk are just avoiding even like engaging at all.

Unknown Speaker (00:27:46.079)

Like even with TikTok kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean, you know, I have an 18 year old, and he got on Twitter, maybe in the last two or three months, because he's communicating with, you know, his football buddies or something like that.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:03.079)

So, even before, before that though, no social media accounts whatsoever, you know, just kind of took it on board that, boy if you want to go to college, one great way not to get into the school your choice is to have somebody surface one of your

Unknown Speaker (00:28:17.079)

you know awful tweets or Facebook posts you know or Instagram posts. That's terrifying. Yeah, I didn't even consider college admissions looking for some racist thing you posted as a 13 year old or something. That'd be crazy.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:33.079)

Yeah. And so I think that you know to some degree, that message sinks in. And also, you know, they're just that much more technologically savvy, you know, they kind of understand how the sausage is made online, which is really interesting.

Unknown Speaker (00:28:49.079)

And that actually that knowledge is being used as I say in the book you know there's there is there is a series of games now where people can make up a conspiracy theory as a kind of game as a way to inoculate them against glomming on to conspiracy theories

Unknown Speaker (00:29:06.079)

and spreading them online without really knowing it before they hit the button, you know, so they kind of understand. Yeah, like, how do you make one you know how do you make it spread, like what elements do you put in there to make it really viral you

Unknown Speaker (00:29:19.079)

know just responding to the, you know, outrage algorithm and all of that. So if you see something online, and they're studying this you know there are people who are looking at this and if they kind of inoculate people in that way by showing them how this

Unknown Speaker (00:29:33.079)

is made and how to spread them, then when they run into them online they're less likely to spread them themselves and to be more skeptical because what is the belief in a conspiracy theory right it's sort of saying, I possess superior knowledge, you know,

Unknown Speaker (00:29:46.079)

I know something the rest of you rubes don't know. And so, you can use that in this sort of pre bunking thing that they as they call it.

Unknown Speaker (00:29:56.079)

All to the good because talking people out of this stuff, as you guys know is really hard. Yeah, that's that's definitely something that we hear a lot, it does also sound like you're a tyrant pushing vaccines on us.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:08.079)

I heard inoculation there too. I don't know what you're trying to bring at us, New York Times sounds like a bio weapon.

Unknown Speaker (00:30:19.079)

Yeah, I think one of the things that I find very interesting about my experience with doing this show is that there is not really been a ton of interaction with info warriors, let's say, and I think part of that is just due to the fact that we don't

Unknown Speaker (00:30:36.079)

engage on social media all that much here it's kind of like the way that folks end up having most of their arguments. So, we have not had a ton of instances where we try to talk somebody out of these beliefs, but second hand I do hear that, you know,

Unknown Speaker (00:30:53.079)

deprogramming as it were, can be very difficult from once you internalize an idea like Sandy Hook was fake, or January 6 was set up by the FBI.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:06.079)

Or Antifa.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:07.079)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:09.079)

Do you get a lot of that from your work? Do you get a lot of folks who want to convince you that you're wrong?

Unknown Speaker (00:31:18.079)

Oh, absolutely. In, in reporting this book, just every conspiracy theorist I spoke with, in fact, there's one in particular Kelly Watt, whose, you know, life I really sort of delve into to.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:30.079)

I was just very curious about how you know how does someone with the email handle great mom, you know, gr numeral eight mom actually get to a place where she's posting on Lenny Posner memorial site to his murdered son.

Unknown Speaker (00:31:50.079)

I want Geraldo to open the caskets. Yeah, you know,

Unknown Speaker (00:31:55.079)

that story was fucked up. Yeah, I could not understand how someone could get to that place and so I Geraldo famously opened Al Capone safe and there was nothing in it she was kind of making a I'm being facetious sorry.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:12.079)

No, she was. Yeah. And, you know, and then the idea of, so she had a cleaning house cleaning the house and office cleaning business in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And, you know, her, her sort of unique contribution to this crazy quilt of Sandy Hook theories was,

Unknown Speaker (00:32:28.079)

let's find out what company cleaned up the school after the massacre, and that became one of the more toxic requests that these hoaxers put in to the, to the Board of Ed in Newtown and to the city of Newtown.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:42.079)

You know we want a copy of the contract and we want receipts and we want photos and they were extremely graphic and what they were describing might have been cleaned up from the school.

Unknown Speaker (00:32:52.079)

And the thing that was really interesting is one of Lenny Posner's volunteers in debunking all of this stuff, actually found the records, a police report that said this is the name of the company.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:06.079)

I actually called the company I had a conversation with them. They confirm that yes they did in fact clean up the school. There was an extremely detailed record of what was removed from the school and what happened to it.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:17.079)

And so I presented this to her, and comes the answer.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:22.079)

After some silence.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:24.079)

Where's the receipts.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:26.079)

So it's just never ending, and you know there is no, and I actually think that maybe someone like her. They're so far down the rabbit hole that there's a, there would be a level of shame involved, I mean, you know, of course, your entire life is a lie.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:45.079)

And not yet that definitely Jordan and, but I think beyond that you have tormented the families of murdered children. I mean at some point.

Unknown Speaker (00:33:56.079)

Maybe you can't come to grips with that anymore. It's easier to believe the lie. I think I would personally have a really tough time but I also think that maybe if you're in that state.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:10.079)

You can't even conscious, you're not even consciously making that decision. Like, you know, you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, you can't, you obviously can't accept the possibilities.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:22.079)

You're just, you just won't allow it to happen and that manifests as these like just instinctual denials of any proof that you're wrong. What do you think is different, Elizabeth, because there is the story from where Lenny Posner joins the, I mean, I

Unknown Speaker (00:34:40.079)

guess host hoax Facebook group. And I believe it's Jen, who eventually exits the group and help. Yes. Lenny start, you know, his, his programs.

Unknown Speaker (00:34:53.079)

So I was wondering what do you think is different between Jen and what if you make great mother, but great mother. Yeah, great mom. She actually was a great mom.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:05.079)

So that that that woman Jen Forsman.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:10.079)

So, here's what I think happened at the beginning, and I think a lot of the parents, you know, enlightened me to this and share this view that in the beginning this was such a horrific crime that no one wanted to believe it happened, you know, it was the parents

Unknown Speaker (00:35:27.079)

themselves they, they, when they write and and speak about it. They talk about waking up in those first days, you know and saying, Oh my god what a horrible nightmare I just had, and then realizing that they're living it.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:41.079)

That is their life and that did happen. And there was, there were a significant number of these early entertainers I'll say of the conspiracy theory around Sandy Hook, who were young parents themselves who had children around that same age.

Unknown Speaker (00:35:59.079)

And one of them, you know I profile for the book, a woman named Tiffany Moser who became one of Lenny's most convinced convinced and and committed volunteers who, you know, had had a tragic situation in her past she hit a child with her car and that child died.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:19.079)

And she had two children who were around the same age as the children who were killed. And she went on to the Sandy Hook hoax Facebook page, just saying, I am here for whoever can tell me this didn't happen, I just need to believe that this did not occur.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:38.079)

And that was Jen to, you know, she also took a little bit of a true crime kind of approach to the, to the whole crime. Right, but.

Unknown Speaker (00:36:49.079)

But these were the people who kind of peeled off because they were open to being convinced that was more of a, you know, a gut kind of emotional reaction to the crime itself.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:01.079)

This level of evil is possible, kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly right. Yeah, they just couldn't do it. It's interesting that you brought up that, you know, people with young children around that like it.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:16.079)

What's something I find really bizarre is that I just realized that Alex's kids would have been younger at that point in 2012. Yeah. And it's, that wasn't the, you know, wasn't an experience that he had of, I believe it was actually on the very first day

Unknown Speaker (00:37:34.079)

when the news broke, because this is something that I remember specifically when we covered it is when the news first broke. Alex did not immediately have a negative reaction his first reaction his instinctive reaction was, I'm sorry.

Unknown Speaker (00:37:50.079)

I'm sorry for the families. Yeah, that was his instant reaction and then the next day. It was all fake. Everything was a lie. He was couching ways to the first day was that's true, that's true, there was there was a gut check a little bit but it didn't last

Unknown Speaker (00:38:07.079)

the whole show. No, you're right. I apologize. I apologize. My memory is literally always fuzzy. That's the only reason this show works. Yeah. But there was a moment remember when he talked about, okay, this is happening at the holidays.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:22.079)

Oh my god, you know, however many kids he had the number wrong but he knew that it was, it was a large number. Yeah. And, and he did seem to be at least momentarily taken aback. Yeah, but then he drove right in.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:38.079)

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:41.079)

What an asshole. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:43.079)

You know what I'm thinking this guy's no good. I'm really I'm having a negative opinion on him. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:38:49.079)

That's, that's, that's really, that's really bizarre. The, you know, just thinking about the the differences between what makes somebody with somebody who would give up on the conspiracy went confronted some reality and somebody who sticks to their

Unknown Speaker (00:39:07.079)

mind and never stop. Yeah, I wonder if there is even some kind of consistency between what you know what, and what you could learn from from that. Yeah, the differences.

Unknown Speaker (00:39:18.079)

I think it, I think it really has to do with I mean this guy University of Miami Joe Shinsuke who studied conspiracy theories especially political ones, and I would call this one of those because gun control was always a factor and you know or or almost consistently

Unknown Speaker (00:39:34.079)

the government plan that makes it a political conspiracy theory but you know his, he will, he will say, you know, even Q and on does not select for politics that you know it is really your kind of mindset and your personality, much more than your

Unknown Speaker (00:39:54.079)

politics that determines whether or not you believe these conspiracy theories. And, you know, initially I was skeptical because Q and on is so much about Hillary Clinton and the Democrats and, you know, Democratic stronghold and blah blah.

Unknown Speaker (00:40:09.079)

But if you really look at, you know, the different variants of that, you know, child trafficking theme. You can kind of understand where he's coming from. And I think, you know, a lot of these people there's a level of narcissism as you know you guys have documented

Unknown Speaker (00:40:23.079)

so well with Jones that you know I need to possess superior knowledge. And then there's a certain you know and this is this woman Kelly Watts daughter Madison explained to me, you know, my mom never felt like anybody really respected her for having an

Unknown Speaker (00:40:40.079)

original idea or, you know, making a kind of intellectual contribution or something like that, it was, it's really important to her to be the sort of bear unique truth, which, you know, it's hard to even countenance that you think, you know, other people would

Unknown Speaker (00:41:01.079)

you know maybe like, get an advanced degree or, you know, study, study something but it's like it's an emotional thing you can kind of relate to and understand it's it's a, you know, it's a struggle but yeah what is the way you proceed from there

Unknown Speaker (00:41:18.079)

right right is not good. Now the interesting thing about your book that I appreciate is that despite it being very focused on Sandy Hook, it is also a really good example of that kind of great conspiracy theory singularity.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:35.079)

So many of these people wound up at Sandy Hook conspiracy theories, coming from different motives different backgrounds different things that they wanted to be true. And, you know, as we as you point out you know yoga moms turn into anti vexers five years later,

Unknown Speaker (00:41:51.079)

and it's all the same conspiracy theory but people are just coming at it from so many different areas.

Unknown Speaker (00:41:58.079)

Yeah, no, it's true and you know, I one thing I didn't explore a lot, although I did in talking about Kelly Watts life and kind of what her life had been because it, you know, there's a lot of trauma in in her life.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:13.079)

I do think trauma in some of these folks lives play a role, you know, like, like Tiffany Moser the woman you know who had the accident with her car and a child died or, you know, we just had a story in the Times yesterday about Robert F Kennedy Jr

Unknown Speaker (00:42:30.079)

and his belief in, you know, just one of the biggest anti-vaxxers, you know, with an enormous following and just like an absolutely divisive force in the Kennedy family.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:43.079)

But, you know, a lot of trauma in that guy's life. Sure. Alex was stuck under a house one time when they were fumigating it. Yeah, drama.

Unknown Speaker (00:42:53.079)

It is, it is very much a, I find it so analogous to evangelical born again Christians, the ones that come to it later in life because something happened, something is like prisoner.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:07.079)

Yeah, I mean, or yeah well Roger Stone, of course.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:13.079)

But there is that like there's an inciting event that where you're at your lowest, there's a group that love bombs you essentially, and then you're just in, you know, so if you're at your lowest point, your business isn't going so well.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:27.079)

Nobody's helping you out you find a QAnon website, you're immediately love bombed with guess what, you're so smart. Yeah, it's not even love bombing it's like validation. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Unknown Speaker (00:43:37.079)

Yeah, yeah, no, it's, that makes me think of, I think that's a really good point, it makes me think of somebody like Mike Flynn, you know, Mike Flynn when he was in the military was, you know, people called it Flynn formation, you know his kind of misconceptions

Unknown Speaker (00:43:54.079)

about Islam or, or radicalism, or, you know,

Unknown Speaker (00:44:02.079)

he didn't have a terrifying thing that you just told me, you know, but it's, it's a general, and you're telling me that it's everybody's like, Oh yeah, we know that guy's full of shit, but we're going to continue promoting him, of course, you've

Unknown Speaker (00:44:19.079)

worked at offices. We're going to make him the national security advisor. Exactly. Yes. Great. Awesome. But yeah, but it was that, you know, that kind of the thing that really struck me about a lot of these groups, like the Sandy Hook hoax group or any of these

Unknown Speaker (00:44:33.079)

gatherings, you know, on, on social media was how mutually reinforcing they were, you know, they all made each other feel really smart. And that's what Kelly Watts daughter said to have a guy like Jim Fetzer,

Unknown Speaker (00:44:48.079)

who is a PhD, who is a former professor of, wait for it, logic at the University of Minnesota, one of the biggest Sandy Hook hoaxers out there, praising her for her insights for her scrappy reporting for calling hundreds of people in New

Unknown Speaker (00:45:07.079)

York town and never giving up as she sought, you know, the, the contract, the Holy Grail for, you know, who cleaned up the school that makes people feel good. And if they don't have a lot of other sources for that, it's really hard to give that a rest.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:24.079)

Yeah. Yeah. I'm bummed out that Jim Fetzer was a professor of logic. I studied a bit of logic in college. I do think that when people who study that break, it's not a twig, it's a tree falling. Logic is too much of a...

Unknown Speaker (00:45:43.079)

You break bad, really hard.

Unknown Speaker (00:45:45.079)

Logic is like a third rail for you. You know, once logic breaks, you're out of, you're out of games, you know?

Unknown Speaker (00:45:50.079)

Well, it's, it's also just a tool you can use also for nefarious ways to make really bad arguments. But that's what shocks me too, is that Fetzer's arguments are not logical. They're not, they don't follow formal structure.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:05.079)

I don't know. I'm sorry. I just got lost there for a second.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:09.079)

I am amazed. One thing that is, I will give to Jim Fetzer, is that even in print form, when you write out his quotes, he does sound like he's a shrieking madman. You know, like you can hear him going,

Unknown Speaker (00:46:24.079)

Ah, this is true! in your head while you're reading his quotes.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:28.079)

Yeah. Yeah. That...

Unknown Speaker (00:46:32.079)

How many times did you interview him?

Unknown Speaker (00:46:34.079)

Hmm. A few. In person, that interview in the, in my rental car.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:43.079)

Right. I enjoyed, I enjoyed that story.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:46.079)

He's, he's laid low after the case, and he does not want to talk to Elizabeth, and eventually he's like, fine, I'll get in your car.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:58.079)

Like it's a drug deal.

Unknown Speaker (00:46:59.079)

Yeah, absolutely like a drug deal. My family doesn't need to know about this. I'll get in your car.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:04.079)

Yeah, his family was so angry that he, but it was like crack to him, the idea that he would get yet one more interview and some attention and be able to trumpet his, because he had been successfully by Lenny's lawyers, you know, Lenny, just to fill your, fill your listeners in,

Unknown Speaker (00:47:26.079)

he had sued him for defamation and won. So he won a $450,000 judgment in October of 2019.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:34.079)

And so I went and spoke with him after that. And after he lost, you know, this was enough to bankrupt probably two generations of his family.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:43.079)

So, yeah. Yeah. So he was saying, you know, my family doesn't really, and it was killing him to say that because it was his wife and daughter. So it just seemed like he had been completely, you know, emasculated by this.

Unknown Speaker (00:47:58.079)

But, you know, it was sort of like, I'll talk to you in the car. So then my wife wouldn't see me.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:06.079)

And then he immediately decided to find a way to double that judgment against him and bankrupt four generations of his family.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:16.079)

Lenny's sealed videotaped deposition and gave it to the hoaxers. And then they put it online and they compared Lenny's ear to his ear in previous photos and decided that the Lenny who testified in that defamation case in the courtroom was an imposter.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:34.079)

This checks out. I remember that actually being like a really popular thing on conspiracy message boards. The like, let's compare ears.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:43.079)

Yeah. Well, so weird. Once you get an ear, you know, the rest of a person's soul.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:47.079)

Yeah. There's a Joe Biden ear conspiracy too, I think. One of the hoaxers told me about it.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:54.079)

I'm sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:48:56.079)

There's a Joe Biden body part conspiracy forever. It's top to bottom.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:00.079)

And I'm sure there's an ear conspiracy for everybody. The queen.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:03.079)

I mean, hey, honestly, Joe Biden is three people. He's a clone. He's a walk-in.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:08.079)

Also Jim Carrey.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:09.079)

And he's Jim Carrey.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:10.079)

Yeah, we learned that from Project Camelot.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:12.079)

Oh, wow.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:13.079)

Jim Carrey is wearing a mask.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:15.079)

You guys are way ahead of me.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:16.079)

He plays Joe Biden. That's why he does these gaffes. Sometimes he does pratfalls. It's because it's Jim Carrey. He can't stop himself.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:22.079)

It's Jim Carrey. He can't not be funny, you know.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:24.079)

Very insightful stuff from actually Project Camelot who interviewed Jim Fetzer also a couple times.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:30.079)

Yes, it's all connected.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:32.079)

Full circle.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:33.079)

I can't imagine what that would be like to be in a closed space with him.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:39.079)

Would you say that that was maybe the most bizarre experience of the book preparation?

Unknown Speaker (00:49:47.079)

Because I would love to hear about if there was something weirder.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:51.079)

In closed spaces with Jim Fetzer is pretty damn weird.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:54.079)

It tops that.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:55.079)

Yeah, what tops Jim Fetzer's weirdness?

Unknown Speaker (00:49:57.079)

Jim Fetzer's breath.

Unknown Speaker (00:49:59.079)

There we go.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:00.079)

Yeah, I do mention that in the book. That's the only reason I brought it up.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:05.079)

I know. It was quite funny.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:07.079)

On a technicality, I still think that's part of the being in a confined space.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:11.079)

I will give Dan that.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:13.079)

Yeah, I can't fairly separate that out.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:16.079)

I would have to say the Alex Jones interview.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:19.079)

When I interviewed him, that was really interesting.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:24.079)

It was funny because after I interviewed him, I had a couple years to think about it before I put it in the book.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:33.079)

I listened to it again and again and thought about it and thought about it in the context of everything that came after.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:43.079)

I think it was a really interesting window into the man, more so than it seemed on the day of.

Unknown Speaker (00:50:54.079)

Because at the time, it seemed like he was just doing his show, a lot of it.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:00.079)

He called me the next day and then he spoke for two more hours on the phone.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:05.079)

That was actually a little more real because I think he might have called his lawyers and realized he made a mistake.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:12.079)

Listen, I didn't actually put snipers on the roof of my building.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:15.079)

He could have just gotten drunk.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:18.079)

Yeah, he could have just been drunk.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:21.079)

Perhaps. I don't know. No idea.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:27.079)

I got the sense when we were speaking, Rob Dew, his top lieutenant, was in the room.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:33.079)

I got the sense that he was trying to entertain him.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:36.079)

You know, watch me intimidate this woman. Watch me make fun of her.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:42.079)

Watch me make fun of her paper to her face, et cetera, et cetera.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:45.079)

And that kind of stuff really doesn't bother me.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:48.079)

And so it didn't really rattle me much.

Unknown Speaker (00:51:52.079)

There's such a good little part in whenever you're describing the interview in your book where you say,

Unknown Speaker (00:51:59.079)

if he was really trying to intimidate me, he would have come up and put his face right into mine.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:04.079)

And instead, he just kept backing further and further away from you.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:08.079)

Yeah, he was kind of moving around the room and seeking the corners.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:12.079)

Yeah, that was a great kinetic description of his complete and utter cowardice.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:17.079)

I feel bad for Rob Dew. He didn't get a show.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:20.079)

That's really where my heart goes out to.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:24.079)

Well, he gets to be the corporate representative a few years after this.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:28.079)

And then he gave us a show.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:29.079)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:30.079)

Yeah, I'll say.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:32.079)

That was yeah, that his his behavior was also really interesting because it was such a like he'd laugh at Alex's jokes and then sort of check Alex's face to make sure it was OK that he was laughing.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:44.079)

Like, was that a joke? Because if you didn't mean it as the joke boss, I don't want to be laughing.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:50.079)

That was that was interesting.

Unknown Speaker (00:52:51.079)

And then I remember calling back writing a different story and he and he was like, is this Elizabeth Williamson from the CIA who says,

Unknown Speaker (00:53:03.079)

and I was just like, Rob, that's just lame.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:07.079)

You could do better, Rob.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:09.079)

Yeah, I go, yeah, OK, Rob, is Alex around?

Unknown Speaker (00:53:15.079)

Rob, can I talk to your dad, please?

Unknown Speaker (00:53:19.079)

Stop pretending to be a big boy.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:23.079)

Yeah, that's actually kind of sad. I was I was thinking you can do better, Rob, but I bet he actually can't.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:28.079)

No, that's probably as good as he's got.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:30.079)

I don't think he can. Yeah. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:32.079)

I think history teaches us this.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:34.079)

Yeah, I have gone back and I realized that one of the things that I've generally missed over the time doing the show is the the entire existence of the Infowars Nightly News,

Unknown Speaker (00:53:45.079)

the show that Rob was the head of. And I've gone back and watched some of that and it's I was right to ignore it.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:52.079)

It's so bad. He did a terrible job for years.

Unknown Speaker (00:53:57.079)

Matched only by David Knight, right?

Unknown Speaker (00:54:00.079)

Yeah, I think David Knight had a competence to him. He was just boring.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:04.079)

He was for the the set of the older crowd who might be offended by Alex's yelling.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:10.079)

Instead of Louder with Crowder, Ben Shapiro, you would think that quieter with David. Yeah, exactly.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:17.079)

Let's calm it down with David Knight. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:19.079)

Yeah. Have some chamomile tea in the morning time.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:23.079)

Yes. Do you like to go to bed at 11 a.m.? David Knight is for you.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:30.079)

So you celebrate New Year's at four in the afternoon.

Unknown Speaker (00:54:34.079)

You interviewed Alex. What was the surrealness of it other than him backing into a corner and failing to intimidate?

Unknown Speaker (00:54:44.079)

What about it was so surreal?

Unknown Speaker (00:54:48.079)

I really was trying to get to the idea of how do these two things exist in Alex Jones?

Unknown Speaker (00:54:59.079)

He is the father of three children.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:05.079)

Four, sorry, now four.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:08.079)

And he is someone who knew that he was inflicting a lot of pain on parents who he had to have known,

Unknown Speaker (00:55:19.079)

obviously, that he was inflicting a lot of pain on the parents of children who were his children's ages, who were brutally murdered.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:29.079)

And I just, you know, all the joking aside and all the, you know, the the the sort of bravado and the and the kind of, you know, performance.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:42.079)

I just I couldn't really get there. And it made me think about some of these other conspiracists where.

Unknown Speaker (00:55:49.079)

Is it that if you actually looked at that and you didn't just deflect the question, could you actually live with yourself?

Unknown Speaker (00:55:59.079)

You know, I mean, I've talked with Jon Ronson, you know, the Welsh filmmaker who spent a lot of time with Alex Jones from way back.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:08.079)

And, you know, he thinks that he was a different person before, you know, that earlier on, he was not.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:16.079)

The kind of person who could do something like that and the Islamophobia and the racism and all of that, and he thinks that with money and power came a lot of that.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:28.079)

What do you guys think? I don't necessarily believe that.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:32.079)

I think that Jon knew him and obviously has more exposure to him. Sure.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:39.079)

But I think that a lot of the stuff, let's say the bigotry and the denial of stuff, those kernels were there in his earlier career.

Unknown Speaker (00:56:53.079)

Sure. It's just with money and power, he had more to protect and more need to accelerate and be like a more dramatic and interesting person.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:06.079)

Because once you start to make money off being, I don't know, a shithead, it doesn't excite the audience as much to maintain that same level.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:18.079)

You kind of have to escalate in order to keep people's attention. I think that business model, maybe he became a slave to.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:26.079)

But I think a fair amount of those tendencies were already there. He's a big Jon Birch guy, like from the beginning of his career.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:35.079)

And they're nothing if not an ideology that's based around pretty racist central concepts.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:43.079)

You don't get to be a nice, caring person and also believe that black people are part of a communist plot to kill white people. You just don't.

Unknown Speaker (00:57:51.079)

The idea of civil rights is a communist conspiracy. I don't feel like that exists generally in a non-bigoted persons.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:03.079)

That is an interesting question as to what Alex was like in different time periods. But one thing that Jon said to us when we talked to Mr. Ronson was he doesn't know if you can really judge Alex based on the way that we would judge other people.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:25.079)

Because maybe Alex is really just a narcissistic psychopath. And if that's the case, what really do we have to say to a person who is just utterly incapable of giving a fuck about whether or not murdered kids' families are in pain?

Unknown Speaker (00:58:44.079)

Yeah. I mean, I always shy away from those things because I'm not a psychiatrist, obviously. Just a journalist. Exactly, Goldwater.

Unknown Speaker (00:58:56.079)

But it is awfully hard to come up with how, and not only him, how these people could feel. It's either. Maybe it's that they truly, truly believe it. In Alex's case, he has already said he thinks children died. So this does not apply to him.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:18.079)

But I think there are some of these individuals who really do believe that this didn't happen or it didn't happen the way it was reported.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:28.079)

And then I think there are others of them that there's something they're getting out of this that is much more precious to them than even their reputation. Or the sort of ostracization that comes from espousing a theory like this.

Unknown Speaker (00:59:49.079)

So they're kind of driven back into their own crowd, because those are the only people who will give them the benefit of the doubt anymore, not only as a conspiracy theorist, but as a person.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:01.079)

Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. If you go out into reality, it's painful. And if you retreat back into fantasy, everybody likes you. I mean, if you go outside and you're a vampire and you get burnt, you're going to stay inside.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:17.079)

This is their group. It's become a kind of new family to them. And, you know, a number of them. I mean, Wolfgang Halbig again springs to mind. His wife left him. He is completely estranged from and in so far as I can tell, you know, from his children and from his grandkids.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:33.079)

And, you know, these James Tracy, you know, University of

Unknown Speaker (01:00:39.079)

FAU. Thank you, Florida Atlantic University. I read the book. No. All right. Thank you so much.

Unknown Speaker (01:00:48.079)

You'd almost think I didn't. I just

Unknown Speaker (01:00:53.079)

So, yeah, so he, you know, for him, I mean, he lost his job, he told me he's an absolute pariah in academia, you know, there, he is unemployable. He has a lot of kids, and including a child with a lot of difficulties who needs, you know, medical care.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:13.079)

And yet he doesn't find a road back for himself. And as I'm getting off the phone, kind of feeling awful at, you know, what he's just described as, you know, his life.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:24.079)

He's like, wait, wait, we didn't talk about coronavirus yet.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:30.079)

So there is an element of psychology there that, you know, I think requires some professional training to understand.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:39.079)

Yeah, probably. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. And it's really interesting to look at. I'm not going to diagnose that person, but that person's crazy. The person needs a diagnosis.

Unknown Speaker (01:01:50.079)

You have these people like Fetzer and Halbig and Tracy, who you're describing as like, have faced drastically severe consequences. And maybe that's what's coming for Alex, but it's so weird that he's been able, to some degree, to avoid the fate that these other folks have.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:17.079)

He's just duke poisoned the General Lee over the laws. Yeah, it's pretty remarkable. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:24.079)

Yeah, it is. Well, he's made a lot of money doing this, as you know, you guys know from the documents that have come out and the court cases and, you know, he's, he can hire legal counsel, and so far, he's, you know, but I do think the reckoning is coming

Unknown Speaker (01:02:45.079)

in terms of these damages trials. I think what I'm hearing from you is that Fetzer's mistake was he didn't start a pill company. This is the classic mistake.

Unknown Speaker (01:02:55.079)

That's where it began. Yeah, that's where it always begins. That's our downfall. Yeah, we need a pill company. We got to get a pill company, man.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:01.079)

So Elizabeth, I was thinking about this and, you know, the process of writing this book took quite a while. And it's, as much as it is a creative process, it's got to be also like a learning experience as well, going along.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:20.079)

What, what do you think is like one of the most more central things that you learned over the course of the experience of writing the book?

Unknown Speaker (01:03:32.079)

I think I'm not original in saying this, and that's that every book is a lot harder to write than you think it is starting out.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:41.079)

That's what a lot of colleagues who have written books told me. Jordan's complained about that a bit.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:47.079)

Jordan, don't you think? It's great. The process is awesome. It happens so quick and you never, ever struggle. That's the thing I learned from writing a book.

Unknown Speaker (01:03:57.079)

It's how painful and the least. No, no. You never stare at your computer screen and wonder if life is worth living.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:04.079)

Well, I mean, the process you're describing is obviously very difficult. And then you add the subject matter being something that's so uncomfortable to wrestle with.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:13.079)

That's how you compound things. Yeah. I mean, one thing that I struggle with as a writer, just in general, just in my day job at the Times, is that sort of that blank paper kind of feeling.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:25.079)

I will just put something down, just not to have to look at that. And because as long as the page is blank, I can come up with the most amazing things to do to keep me from actually writing.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:38.079)

I organized an entire linen closet during this book project before a chapter, and it wasn't even my linen closet.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:49.079)

You learned procrastination techniques. Really new ones. Yeah. I impressed even myself and I'm used to myself on that.

Unknown Speaker (01:04:58.079)

But I found that that happened before every chapter. And there are 26 chapters. And I added up all the days that I spent kind of stalling between chapters because of this total terror of starting a new chapter.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:15.079)

And I thought, you know, I could probably finish this book six months earlier.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:20.079)

Every now and again, but like when I'm trying to not prepare an episode, I will consider learning a new language or something.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:29.079)

I find that that's such an impulse of like, this material is ugly.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:38.079)

At least that's productive, though.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:40.079)

I don't actually do it. I just think about it. And then sometimes I scroll through Duolingo and I'm like, maybe today is the day that I brush up on my French or whatever.

Unknown Speaker (01:05:52.079)

Today is Sanskrit day. Exactly. I remember when I was writing mine, I had a blank page and I was doing everything possible to avoid looking at it.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:02.079)

And then the next time I turned and looked down, I had written, you're doing all right. Just without, I didn't think about it.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:10.079)

It was there waiting for me when I went back and I was like, I think I need help.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:15.079)

I think I'm in trouble. I think you might need a diagnosis.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:20.079)

How did you get over that feeling, that blank page?

Unknown Speaker (01:06:23.079)

Well, I mean, that was kind of part of, we talked about it before we recorded, but that was part of my chopping up. So I printed everything out and then chopped it up.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:34.079)

And so having the physical, like chopped up pieces of paper with stuff that I had already written on it, I could look over at that and then start writing again.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:44.079)

So that was really, you know, I'm holding a two inch piece of paper. It's almost like you're transcribing then.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:50.079)

Yeah, it's trying to mix the transcription and turn it into something new, you know.

Unknown Speaker (01:06:57.079)

So one thing that I did was, and this was on the advice of, you know, a guy who's a mentor to me who's written three or four books, his name is David Hoffman, and wonderful, wonderful friend.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:09.079)

And he said, one thing you want to do, bang out a bunch of chapters, or if you can swing it, your whole first draft, send it to a group of readers, people you trust.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:18.079)

Not just journalists, not just people in Washington or in New York or wherever, but like some friends who read a lot of books and, you know, who you trust to give you some honest feedback.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:30.079)

So I printed all that out, you know, at 16 chapters. I realized that at 16 chapters, and again, there are 26, I was 100,000 words over.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:41.079)

So that's actually an entire book.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:46.079)

That's two of my entire books.

Unknown Speaker (01:07:49.079)

Yeah, I had 100,000 words from the first 16 chapters, and then write 10 more. So, those 10, those following 10 were definitely a little more refined than the first 16.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:03.079)

The lesson of the 100,000 was learned.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:07.079)

I mean, one thing that I will say absolutely is great is how readable it is. It is so straightforward, well paced, written, organized, that it's, I mean I read it in, I think three or four hours, like sat down and just banged it out, it was great.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:27.079)

Thank you so much, and thank you for reading it.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:31.079)

You're welcome.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:34.079)

That's a lovely exchange. I have another quick question for you.

Unknown Speaker (01:08:41.079)

As far as, so what we found is when you study the misinformation world, if you get good enough at it you become part of your story. You know, like, from the beginning the idea with our show, Dan's intent was, we're not going to interact with InfoWars,

Unknown Speaker (01:08:59.079)

I don't want to become part of the story. And in your case, you, he talked about you on the show. Do you feel like you got added into the story more than you wanted to?

Unknown Speaker (01:09:12.079)

Oh, that's a great question.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:14.079)

I know!

Unknown Speaker (01:09:17.079)

What a great exchange!

Unknown Speaker (01:09:25.079)

You know, I suppose it was going to be inevitable, because when you're asking people why they do what they do, and you know it's clear that you're not on their team.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:39.079)

I think that they're going to see, and again, the nature of this was, these people are getting so much psychic income from what they're doing that anyone on the outside of that asking questions and saying, what you just said isn't true, is a threat and an enemy.

Unknown Speaker (01:09:59.079)

And I think that there was part of that. And then also, you may have noticed over the past several years that the New York Times in general is a pretty handy foil for a lot of, you know, folks who tend to believe some of this stuff.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:17.079)

And it's something that has some clout attached to it. The New York Times is attacking me is almost like a sign of validation for someone like Alex, it'd be very difficult to resist complaining about it.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:35.079)

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, and I tried to, like, while some of what I was, you know, I knew had gone on and what I was learning and what people were saying was absolutely infuriating and, you know, really beyond infuriating.

Unknown Speaker (01:10:56.079)

I was trying to understand, you know, I just kept trying to think, if I'm passing judgment, or I'm just pushing back all the time.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:07.079)

I'm not going to gain any fresh insights. I mean, we know this stuff is wrongheaded, you know, we already know that so they don't need me to tell them that, you know, I'm trying to figure out, like, how did you become this way, and, and why do you think this

Unknown Speaker (01:11:27.079)

is wrong, you know, is it a profit reason, is it an ideological reason, is it something that you know, is there like some need in you that that this fulfills. I was trying to understand that, just because I want, I wanted the book to actually help our

Unknown Speaker (01:11:46.079)

collective societal thinking about this and maybe help us arrive at some answers, you know, how can we bring people back from the edge or keep them from tipping over in the first place.

Unknown Speaker (01:11:58.079)

That's what I was trying to do. And I guess by fighting with people you're probably not going to get there. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't seem like it. No, you might be able to write a book that's full of action sequences of fights that you have.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:14.079)

Yeah, that might not be societally as useful.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:18.079)

Yeah. And then I also you know the thing I was always obviously holding close was this idea that, you know, these families and telling me their story.

Unknown Speaker (01:12:30.079)

You know, they were trusting me with the worst possible day of their life or anyone's life, and, and they were doing it not because of anything having to do with me, they were doing it because they wanted you and all of us to understand that this was something

Unknown Speaker (01:12:50.079)

that if these folks can come for the parent of a murdered child, they're coming for all of us, and that this is a societal warning that they're trying to raise, and, and, you know, I just.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:06.079)

That's why and I know that this is a really hard topic this shooting is is something that a lot of, you know, a lot of humans and it's a very human reaction to want to look away from it and not want to relive those details and where you were when it happened

Unknown Speaker (01:13:23.079)

and how old your own children were and all of that. But I kind of feel like we owe it to the families to, to, you know, walk through that with them and understand what happened afterward because they are trying to help by telling this story.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:44.079)

No, yeah, that's, that's a great, great thought I feel like doesn't get better than that. No, I feel like that that may be a great thought to close on as I think that there's a lot to think about there.

Unknown Speaker (01:13:59.079)

Yeah, we're not gonna we're not going to be able to top that one so since you get the best line I think we'll just end it.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:05.079)

Oh, I just, I'm so grateful to you guys for having me on and, and for reading the book and, and really for. I mean, you guys helped me so much in this book, I mean Dan.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:23.079)

I just, you know, you know so much about the way info wars and Alex Jones operates, and I know you're going to feel embarrassed that I'm, you know, giving you, but you really deserve so much credit for helping me understand this guy and and where he's

Unknown Speaker (01:14:40.079)

coming from.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:41.079)

It's probably good that we we give full disclosure that I did, we did speak in the process of you writing the book. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I don't want to try and hide that that point.

Unknown Speaker (01:14:53.079)

No, not at all. No, not at all. I mean, you guys helped me a lot to understand you know that corner of of what this book is and it's a big corner, believe me, I'm really grateful for you, using the plural.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:08.079)

That's really nice of you to really include me, even though you don't have to.

Unknown Speaker (01:15:17.079)

Well, I was, I was, I was thrilled to be able to put this information to use because I mean, there's a lot of, you know, just like you were talking about with with Bill Ogden, and the the experience of watching a ton of Alex's content it's incredibly

Unknown Speaker (01:15:33.079)

painful if you're actually engaging with it and and looking at it critically. And I think going through the process of learning so much about this would be useless if it wasn't for something. Yeah, it wasn't used for something so thank you for providing something

Unknown Speaker (01:15:49.079)

something of an outlet for that. Oh my gosh, yeah, no, I just remember all the time saying, what do you think he was saying when he said this or on this particular date, or do you have this particular video or, you know, it was just, you know,

Unknown Speaker (01:16:07.079)

if the effort is to try and understand why this happens. Thank you so much. You're quite welcome and thank you. People can find the book everywhere, right?

Unknown Speaker (01:16:19.079)

Where do people get books? Where do people get books?

Unknown Speaker (01:16:22.079)

Barnes and Noble. I didn't even bother with the print engine. I just put it on a website. I just like take it. I just had a mini panic. People download books now. Yeah, that's all I can. You can get it at the library, you can get it at your favorite local bookstore.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:39.079)

Wait, Trump ended it. I thought Trump ended library. Didn't Trump kill all libraries? I don't think so. Only his own presidential library. Is this book going to be in the Trump presidential library? That is a good question.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:54.079)

He's in it a lot. Library of Congress.

Unknown Speaker (01:16:59.079)

Yeah, and again, it's called Sandy Hook, An American Tragedy and the Battle for Truth. Thank you again, Elizabeth. We appreciate you joining us.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:10.079)

Yes, thank you so much. Thank you both. Really appreciate it.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:14.079)

Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that. Nice to take a little break. A little breaky. A little breaky for us. Man, shit's about to get crazy. Is he doing better today? Well, Enrique Tarrio just got arrested today as we're recording these intros.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:33.079)

That was part of a conspiracy charge that also includes Rambo Joe Biggs, former InfoWars employee. Seditious conspiracy, too. I believe it was actually just conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding. Oh, that's nice.

Unknown Speaker (01:17:48.079)

But in the indictment, it does involve, at one point, Enrique Tarrio meets with Stuart Rhodes in an underground parking garage. Sneaky stuff might be afoot.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:05.079)

It was fucking Deep Throat there, too? The whole gang was down there. Fox Mulder. Yeah, just everybody getting together like, wait, what are you doing here? Yeah, so some crazy stuff may be about to pop off.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:18.079)

And so it's nice to just get ready for that incoming barrage of shit. So yeah, we will be back, Jordan. Probably dealing with that. Probably. If Alex decides to deal with it.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:33.079)

If not, I guess we might talk about the fucking convoy in DC to this again. Coming to you from an undisclosed location in Mexico for no reason whatsoever. Hey everybody, I'm recording this from the underground parking garage where Stuart Rhodes and Enrique Tarrio had a clandestine meeting.

Unknown Speaker (01:18:51.079)

Sounds great, amazingly. Acoustics. Yeah, amazing. Wonderful. But yeah, we'll be back. But until then, we have a website. Indeed we do. It's knowledgefight.com. Yep. We are also on Twitter. Indeed we are. It's at knowledge underscore fight and at go to bed Jordan.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:05.079)

Yep, we'll be back. But until then, I'm Neo, I'm Leo, I'm DZXClark, I'm Dr. Marbles. And now, here comes the sex robot. Andy in Kansas, you're on the air. Thanks for holding.

Unknown Speaker (01:19:16.079)

Hello Alex, I'm a first time caller. I'm a huge fan. I love your work. I love you.