Transcript/340: All About Steve

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I have great respect for knowledge fight I'm sick of them posing as if they're the

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good guys saying we are the bad guys. Knowledge Fight. Dan and George. Knowledge Fight. Riddler,

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Riddler, Riddler. Need, Need Money. Riddler, Riddler, Riddler. Andy and Kansas. Andy and

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Kansas. Stop it. Andy and Kansas. Andy and Kansas. It's time to pray. Andy and Kansas

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you're on the air. Thanks for holding us. Hello Alex, I'm a first time caller. I'm a

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first time caller. I love your word. Knowledge Fight. Knowledge Fight. I love you. Hey everybody,

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welcome back to Knowledge Fight. I'm Dan. I'm Jordan. We're a couple dudes. I like to

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sit around and drink novelty beverages and talk a little bit about Alex Jones. Indeed

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we are. Dan. Jordan. Dan! What up? What is the worst piece of advice you ever got? I

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don't know. Not just in stand up or anything like that but like did you have a high school

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guidance counselor who gave you some terrible advice? I don't know. The thing that comes

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to my mind the most here is like you know you start. Start a show about Alex Jones.

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No one gave me that advice. The worst advice. Gave me the counter advice to that. Dan, don't

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do that. Sounds stupid. The thing that comes to mind is like you think about like parents.

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You think about. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess this isn't so much advice as it is like just what

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sticks out in my head of like this was a bad move. Yeah. From like a good source of information.

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A well meaning source. Yeah. So I was really afraid of thunderstorms when I was a wee boy.

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Because I grew up for a bit in Hawaii. We moved to Missouri when I was ten. And so by

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the time I was ten, like there aren't thunderstorms in Hawaii. I had no idea what they were. What?

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Yeah. There aren't thunderstorms in Hawaii? No. No. That's bananas. I'd never seen one

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in the four years that I was there. No shit. Yeah. And so when I'm ten years old coming

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into Missouri and from what I know of Missouri in advance is that there are these things

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called tornadoes that happen there. Right. They're always associated with thunderstorms.

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Of course. Right. And so like I have this built up in my head that if there's a thunderstorm

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there's a chance there's going to be a tornado. And in my mind tornadoes are almost identical

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to hurricanes. Which I was very afraid of. Which you're very familiar with. Yeah. Yeah.

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So I had this like just terrible, terrible fear when they were thunderstorms. And so

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I was like ten years old and I was scared in bed during a thunderstorm. And I call up

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for my dad in the middle of the night. I'm like, Dad! Dad! We're going to die! Yeah.

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He comes into my room and is like, Dan, don't worry. The worst is over. And then as soon

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as he says the worst is over, there's... Ka-choom! A gigantic crack of lightning like

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right outside the window. Of course. It must have hit the neighbor's house basically. Right.

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Right, right, right, right. So the loudest like... Because the universe had to send a

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fucking message. Yeah, yeah. The worst is never over, Dan. Yeah, yeah. The simultaneous

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lightning and thunder. Yeah. So the storm is right here. Yeah, yeah. And then as soon

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as the thunderclap subsided, the lights went out in the house and the tornado sirens went

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off. So it was like this. That's hilarious. Yeah. That is too funny. It's almost like

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a sitcom moment where my dad had to have been like, what the fuck? I'm trying to comfort

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my dumbass son. It's a good gamble to say the worst is over. No, of course. Generally

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you're right. Oh no, absolutely. But in this case... So that sticks out to me as like,

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I don't know if it's advice. I guess the advice is don't be afraid. Right. The worst is over.

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Right, right, right. That he was way off. Never. And that solidified in my mind that

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we are going to die from a tornado. Storms are scary. Of course. My dad has been proven

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100% wrong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What else can I not trust him about? That became a bit of

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a meme between us. The worst is over. Right, Dan? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha. Very funny.

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So I survived that thunderstorm and other tornado warnings in my time in Missouri. I

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know a bit about it now, but I know more about Alex Jones. Oh, and I only know what you tell

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me about Alex Jones. That is right. So Jordan, today we got an interesting, a unique episode

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to present to the people. And as promised at the end of our last episode, we will be

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getting a bit into Steve Pechenik. Stevie P's. I have done quite a bit of digging around,

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trying to find some information on this cat. And I come away from it as confused as I was

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when I started. Well, that was because you accidentally started researching Steve Perry.

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Steve Perry is not the same. A different person named Steve Perry will come up in this episode.

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That can't be not the lead singer of Journey. Are you sure there is a Steve Perry that I

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will mention later? That's really weird. That is super bizarre. That's bananas. You know

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what else is bananas? What? How great I feel about people who have signed up and are supporting

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the show. What's bananas is how great that transition was. You know, I sharpened my skills

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on the tornado fields of Missouri. So Jordan, today I gotta I gotta say some thank yous

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out to we got a murder of wonks. We got a murder today. Just some some walks to get

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through and express our gratitude to. So first of all, Matthew, thank you so much. You're

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now policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thank you. Next, Emily. Thank you so much. You're

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now policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thank you, Emily. I'm next, Brian. Thank you so

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much. You're now policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thanks, Brian. Next, Daniel. Thank you

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so much. You're now policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Daniel. No, stop it. Sorry. Next, Louise.

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Thank you so much. You're now policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Louise. Next, Trevor. Thank

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you so much. You are now policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thank you, Trevor. Next, TJ.

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Thank you so much. You are now policy wonk. I'm a policy wonk. Thank you, TJ. I would

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like to believe that that's either TJ as in Tijuana. Okay. The whole place. All of Tijuana.

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Gotcha. Or TJ Lavin, host of the Real World Road Rules Challenge, a show that I no longer

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watch but did for way too long. It's still on? Yeah. Oh, man. And then finally, I'd like

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to say thank you to Wallace E. Punk. Thank you so much. You are now policy wonk. I'm

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a policy wonk. Thank you, Wallace E. Punk. Absolutely. Is that a reference to something

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or is that a name? It's like policy wonk but inverted. Oh, oh, God damn it. I didn't catch

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that. Wow. Holy shit. Holy shit. I kept thinking of, wait, is that a play on Polk? Like, I

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have no idea. That's amazing. I'm in presidential history all the time, apparently. That's pretty

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amazing. Yeah. So if you're out there listening and you'd like to support the show, you can

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go to our website, knowledgefight.com. Click the button that says support the show. We

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would appreciate it. That'd be lovely. So, Jordan, here comes. Yeah. What's in front

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of us today is a profoundly complicated episode of this podcast. As we dig through the past

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of Alex Jones' show in 2013 to learn more about how he ended up believing that no children

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died at Sandy Hook, we found that Steve Pechenik is absolutely the first person to make that

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argument on air in a way that Alex considers. He thinks about it. He even says that it's

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blowing his mind hearing Steve Pechenik say these things. Of course. We've encountered

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Steve many times in the past on Alex's show, and we've delighted in how he and Alex tend

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to get into fights on air, as they did in a lost episode of our podcast, where Alex

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called Steve, who is in the middle of trying to survive Hurricane Irma. Alex wanted to

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talk about how Trump was being surrounded by globalists and he was under attack. But

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Steve wasn't having any of it because he had water coming in. And here is a little taste

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of that. We don't need him on house arrest like Rapunzel. What's that? We don't need

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the president on house arrest like Rapunzel. He's not under house arrest. He's a grown

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man who has a theory to think that he does. He's a grown man who brings in his own children

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to make decisions. That's fine. I'm not here to judge the president. He can do what he

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does. But I am here to judge the republic because unlike many other people and like

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many other veterans, we fought in order to maintain the republic. Whether Trump is here

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or Pence is here or Mickey Mouse is in the White House, you want to know what's irrelevant

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to us. What's relevant to us is that the republic remains so that it has the integrity of the

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United States. And Trump has gutted 50 years of globalists selling out the country in eight

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months. Globalists aren't doing anything. Alex, right now Brexit is in such serious

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trouble. Ireland is in trouble. Scotland is in trouble. But that's the beginning of the

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separation. Of course. Who told you about it? I told you about it years ago. And I told

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you this would be the takedown of the system that was put in by the EU. I mean, I gave

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you credit for that, but we were pushing to bring down the EU 20 years ago. I know that.

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We weren't pushing it at all. I was. I was. I was. Before they even officially launched

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it. Go home to your mother and tell her you're brilliant. That's not the issue. The issue.

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Well, I'll tell you, in the real world, in the real world, I've been able to predict

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stuff other people haven't. I said Trump was going to win two days before. I think you're

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wonderful. Alex, will you stop promoting yourself? I'm not promoting myself. I'm promoting facts.

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I'm promoting facts. I'm promoting facts. Seventy seconds. We'll be back. That's one

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of my favorite clips of all time. From the go home and tell your mother you're brilliant

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diss, which is just spectacular. Of course. To Steve Pachanik's just sick of the bullshit

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you're being. Globals aren't doing anything. The Globals aren't doing anything line is

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spectacular. Yeah, that's just, it's so amazing. That dynamic is just fantastic. I find it

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endlessly hilarious that some one clip that is so integral to our entire show was part

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of a lost episode from two years ago. Yeah. I'm glad that the clip finally gets played

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in a way that is hurt. Yes, that's half the reason we're doing this episode. Just so that

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that clip just got to be there. Yeah. And moments like that are really fun, Jordan,

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because Steve shares a relationship with Alex that most guests don't in that Alex really

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needs him, or at least he did for a very long time. Steve was a former State Department

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official and an expert in psychological warfare, and his proximity to Alex and his professed

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respect for Alex's work made him invaluable in terms of making Alex appear credible. There's

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no way that Steve didn't understand that dynamic, so he could just yell at Alex a little bit

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here and there, which is always so much fun. It upsets the normal power dynamic of the

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show, wherein Alex is the unquestioned king of all that he surveys. The other side effect

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of this relationship is that Steve was pretty much able to say anything on Alex's show,

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and Alex had to treat it like a serious statement worth considering. Like the time, who could

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forget when Steve told Alex that Parkland was a false flag?

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I don't know. Sometimes. The Sandy Hook and this Parkland, they're all false flags. And

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what you're looking at is the nonsense of the vestiges of the press trying to be relevant

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as well as the FBI and a crooked... So how long does this ghost dance go on, then?

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So Parkland was a false flag. Sandy Hook, a false flag. You can even repeat that there.

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Even Alex is smart enough to be like, okay, how many false flags are there? How long are

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we going to keep calling these false flags? Idiot. We can't call all of them false flags.

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It's getting thin, Steve. Or who could forget about the time Steve went on David Knight's

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show and just said straight up the Las Vegas shooting didn't happen?

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Dr. Pretendich, let's go straight to the shooting in Vegas. Your comments.

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All right. Let me tell you, number one, why I can't get on the internet. The reason is

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very simple. I'm being hacked. The reason why you're hearing me now, it's another person's

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phone call. So this is part of 9-11. They can call it conspiracy, but everything you

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said, David, is the same thing I said within 24 hours of 9-11. My CIA operatives admitted

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that they did it. I had the names of the people involved. They indicted Bush, Cheney, Chertoff,

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Giuliani, the Mossad operatives who blew up the building, and Condi, and as well as Colin

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Powell. And this is what happened. So what's happening now is the continuation Sandy Hook

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false flag, San Bernardino false flag. Yesterday in Las Vegas, a complete false flag. It was

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absolute nonsense. You could hear the verbiage. You could hear the same setup as we had in

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Sandy Hook. The narrative is so predictable that no one was killed. There was no shooting.

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And in fact, what happened in the giveaway was this was the greatest killing at all time

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of America. That's distinctive of Trump. He has to have the most and the best. The sad

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part is that Trump fell into this system and he's co-opted by the Department of HHS, CIA,

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and FBI. What we need to do in America now is demand the indictment of presidents, indictment

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of officials. I don't know if it'll happen, but this is enough reason to start a revolution.

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So we got Steve saying Las Vegas, no one died there, no one got shot, and his phone isn't

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working because of 9-11.

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I was about to say, if David Knight were any good as a host, he would say, have you tried

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turning it off and on again?

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Hit the switch on the back.

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Steve, have you tried turning it off and on again?

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Yeah. But David Knight, as I recall, his response was, I don't know about Las Vegas, but Sandy

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Hook, definitely.

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David.

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What a fucking idiot.

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Or Jordan, who could forget about how in the lead up to the 2016 election, Steve Pachannik

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claimed that he'd created Bernie Sanders as a psy-op.

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Well Hillary's in a very serious problem. And once again, I want to thank your audience

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and you. What we did was in fact to do a psy-ops on Hillary, which was in effect to create

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Bernie Sanders, to bring him out, to co-opt her extreme left, and then to bring Biden

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in to co-opt her middle, and then to break up and fractionate her system.

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So we got, you know, we got him, he created Bernie Sanders.

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Yeah. Did, I'm assuming Steve doesn't know that Leo Zagami is the reason that 9-11 happened,

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right?

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He's working across purposes. Yeah. He doesn't have the Leo Zagami information.

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It is kind of, it is kind of funny that on the same show, it's entirely possible to hear

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a guy who claims to have committed 9-11, as well as the guy who says that 9-11 was a false

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flag.

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Well, it was a false flag, done by Leo Zagami, perhaps. That's how we get it all together.

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And the reverberations are turning off phones to this day.

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Yep. One guy's phone. And it is an old man in Florida. So we have, he created Bernie

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Sanders as a psy-op, and Alex has got to believe this shit. He's got to at least treat it as

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a credible thing. Or who could forget about how, also, he had said that he created Trump

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and enlisted him to run for president.

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Your take on Donald Trump, your take on Carson, and where the country is.

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Thank you very much. The truth of the matter is, this is one of the most, one of the most

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phenomenal American revolutions I have ever seen, and the one we were waiting for, Alex.

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And I thank you and I thank the audience. And I thank the so-called alternative media,

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which really became the mainstream media. The reality is, Trump had been monitoring

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this mainstream media for a long time. I knew it, he knew it. Many of us had known that.

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And in fact, when we came up for the next presidency, he took it and basically ran with

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it. And this is the true expression of the moral majority. And the fact that we are so

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tired of the people who committed the crime at 9-11, that once Trump gets in, my suspicion

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is many of them will be arrested.

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So what we have is him pitching this narrative to Alex that he was part of a group of heroes

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who enlisted Trump to run as president as a counter-coup against Hillary Clinton, who's

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trying to pull off her own internal soft coup.

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Right.

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Fun fact, the narratives that Steve was promoting on Alex Jones' show in late 2015, as we saw

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in our 2015 coverage, they're shockingly similar to the things that people who are into QAnon

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believe. You know, the idea of they're going to arrest all these people after Trump gets

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in. There's good guy heroes in the intelligence services that are working to install Trump.

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Had QAnon already become a...

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No, that was later.

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OK.

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And that's not...

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Did he create QAnon?

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No.

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OK.

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I'm not trying to say that Steve is Q, but I wouldn't be too surprised to find out that

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the people who are running that scam, the QAnon scam, weren't at least in part inspired

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by narratives that Steve used to help persuade Alex to support Trump.

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Right.

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Like, there's so many little elements that are very similar. Maybe that's something for

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another episode. I didn't want to get into it. Maybe that would be something we should

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leave to the guys over at QAnon Anonymous.

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Right, right, right, right.

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And then there's perhaps my favorite thing that Steve ever convinced Alex of, and that

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is the idea that Steve does psyops, but he isn't doing them against the good and noble

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people who listen to Infowars.

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We had Steve Pachinikong. And a lot of folks hear Steve Pachinikong and they don't trust

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him because of the positions he's been in. I'm not saying you should trust him.

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I don't.

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But look at what he's told us over the years. It's turned out to basically be true.

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And he does do manipulative stuff where he was like, Jeb Bush should run. He's a really

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great leader. I really like him when he's saying George W. Bush is involved in 9-11

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and should, you know, go on trial for treason. And then it turns out he's been at the Council

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on Foreign Relations advising them to run Jeb Bush, to set Jeb Bush up so they could

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then make it about 9-11.

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Please, class.

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I mean, when you're dealing with Pachinik, it is serious psychological warfare. And he's

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not doing it to this broadcast. He's here saying, America's going to win. We're going

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to take the country back. We're going to be positive. Our military is going to be patriotic

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and cannot go along with this.

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And it's been happening. I'm not saying Pachinik is even 5 percent of the whole resistance

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at that level. But what he's saying is true and is being listened to. And this broadcast

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is a format for that to happen.

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That is very sad.

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Yeah, that's not good.

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It's always real sad to hear. So looking over the period of time that we have, the various

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stretches of time, it's hard not to get the impression that a lot of the ideas that Alex

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has gotten and that have gotten him in the most trouble trace back to Steve.

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But simultaneously, Steve's earliest appearances on Alex's show claiming that 9-11 was a false

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flag created a legitimacy in Alex's content that wouldn't have been there without a purported

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expert and insider backing them up.

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Without being on the vanguard of the 9-11 conspiracy movement, Alex would never have

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been in the position to become what he later became. And at least some of that credit for

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elevating Alex above the level of just another weirdo yelling about shit was getting Steve

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Pachinik to say on air that 9-11 was fake in 2002. That is a massively important piece

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of Alex's trajectory, unfortunately. Their relationship soured in 2017, ultimately reaching

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its breaking point on October 5th, when a caller asked Alex his thoughts about Steve

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saying that the Las Vegas shooting didn't happen.

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It didn't?

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Well, I mean, according to Steve, it didn't. According to everybody else, in reality, it

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did.

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Forgot.

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So Alex gets this caller, and here is his response.

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Paul, we're going to go to Georgia and talk to Paul. Paul, thanks for calling. You're

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on the air worldwide.

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Hello?

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Yes, sir, go ahead.

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Yeah, I just want to bring up a point. Steve Pachinik came on yesterday on David Knight's

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show and said this whole thing didn't happen. Are you aware of that?

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Yeah, I think it's preposterous. I've watched the raw footage. I've talked to folks that

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were there. You can't fake people dying and bleeding out. And I just, he can have his

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opinion. I can have mine, but I don't buy into that.

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Well, it's almost like a disinformation campaign. Is he still working for the CIA here? I mean,

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this whole thing-

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Well, I think that's safe to say, yeah.

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A deep state coup to provoke a response. This was an attack on middle America.

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The target, just like Colonel Shaffer said, just like Colonel Shaffer said, the target

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is the motive and the top psychiatrist, everybody else, of course.

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So Alex believes that Steve in 2017 is working for the CIA and he's running a psyop.

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Absolutely. And he promised never to do that against the info wars. You think you can trust

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a psych warfare guy.

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Yeah, it turns out. So the other conspiracies Steve had fed Alex had kernels of ambiguity

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to them. Like we don't have any videos of Sandy Hook, so who's to say it actually happened?

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Eh? Alex wants to believe that Bernie was a psyop against Hillary because that seems

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fun for him. And he wants to believe that a team of good guy Patriots spies installed

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Trump as president to save the Republic. So he's happy to lap up that bullshit. But saying

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that the Las Vegas shooting didn't happen, that's just too much. Alex was already starting

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at that point to get blowback about his Sandy Hook coverage. And if he said that this shooting

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didn't happen, he had every reason to know that he was tacitly telling his audience that

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a gigantic number of people were crisis actors.

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That Route 91 Harvest Festival had an attendee count of over 20,000 on the day of the shooting.

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And that's a ridiculous amount of people to encourage your audience to potentially harass.

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Plus there's a high likelihood that there were multiple Alex Jones listeners at that

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country music festival, so Alex wouldn't want to alienate them or create some sort of, I

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don't know what you'd even call it, but like, he would be disrespecting, he would risk turning

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them into enemies.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know, removing the whip to put it in Brexit terminology? How

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we doing there?

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But Steve said it didn't happen. And so Alex threw him the fuck under the bus and indicated

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that he was probably running a psyop on Alex and his audience. Of course, that raises the

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question of what else was Steve manipulating Alex about? It would be terribly naive to

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imagine that Steve was straight up with Alex about everything. Then in 2017 he just decided

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to start fucking with him.

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He turned heel. That's ridiculous. That happens all the time. Like how, how many times has

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Brock Lesnar been a face or a heel? It's all the time. All the time. That's the worst example

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because Brock Lesnar is a little bit above the distinction. He's more of a special attraction.

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Ah, I gotcha. I gotcha. He's just big. He's just large. Yeah. He's not good guy, bad guy.

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Just gigantic. He's a, he's a, he's a brick wall. He's there to provide resistance. So

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I've taken a look at all the available information I can find about Steve Pachannik and that's

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what we're going to discuss here today. If you're looking for definite answers, I don't

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have too many of those. Steve is way too complicated a guy with way too long of a trail for me

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to ever pretend that I can definitively tell you what he's up to or why he does what he

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does. I can't help you with that. It's confusing to me. I don't know what he's doing. Do you

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know the thing about his argument for why Las Vegas didn't happen is somehow it is literally

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the only perhaps or not plausible, but of the implausible arguments that could be made,

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that one seems to be the most plausible of like, well, you know, Trump's crazy. He wants

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the biggest and biggest of everything. So if he was going to orchestrate a false flag,

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it would be the biggest one in American history. And you're like, fuck that. Well, it's a it's

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a piece of relatable, like psychology of what we know of Trump and his narcissism. Yeah.

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But it relies on like just the weakest foundation. Oh, no, because you have to believe he's trying

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to get you to buy into the narcissism angle and not not realize what else you're buying

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with it. Right. Right. Right. That's the technique. Of course. So all I can do here is walk you

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through what's known about Steve Pachanik's past and see if it matches the character that

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we've come to know as a wacky and cranky guest on Alex's show who doesn't like bad manners.

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So let's jump in, Jordan. That was my introduction. Here we go. Steve Pachanik was born on December

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7th, 1943, the second anniversary of the bombing of Pearl Harbor, something that Alex Jones

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almost certainly thinks is a false flag. I'm not sure, but I'm going to guess he does.

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It would make sense. Sure. I guess. Yeah. Why not? Why not? Everything. Everything.

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How long is this ghost dance going to go on? Steve was born in Havana, Cuba, to Jewish

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refugee parents who'd left their homes in Europe as World War Two was gearing up. Oh,

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so kick him out, right? Were against him immigration wise now? No, no, we're fine with him. Oh,

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we're fine with him. OK. The family relocated to France for some years, then made their

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way to New York City when Steve was eight years old. According to his bio, Steve went

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to Cornell and received his bachelor's degree in premed and psychology in 1964, then proceeded

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to get his medical degree at Cornell as well. He went on to do his residency at Harvard

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Medical School and simultaneously pursued a PhD in international relations at MIT. OK.

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This timeline has always confused me a little bit. If you assume that Steve finished his

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undergrad work in 1964, then the assumption would be that he'd probably complete his M.D.

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at Cornell probably in 1968. Right. I mean, generally there's four years of med school.

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Yeah, if there's four. Yeah, that makes sense. Generally, you need at least two to complete

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three years of residency before you're eligible for a medical license. But that's at the low

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end of the spectrum. So the earliest possible time I could see him finishing up his Harvard

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rotations would be 1971. That seems almost impossible, though, considering he was doing

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those rotations while simultaneously getting a PhD at MIT. That would be almost inhuman

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workload. Oh, yeah. I mean, no, impossible. It seemed it would be possible, possible,

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but it's crazy. No, it is impossible. MIT has pretty high standards. So does Harvard.

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Their med school. Not so bad. It's a lazy man. It's a lazy man's med school. All the

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law shit. Yeah, for sure. The med school. Toss it in there. Now, it should be pointed out

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that a lot of people do take combined M.D. PhD programs that often can take between six

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to eight years to complete. But that couldn't be what Steve is doing. These are two different

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schools. No, MIT and Harvard have a combined international psych warfare program with an

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M.D. Yeah, that must be. That makes perfect sense. So the reason this timeline sticks

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out to me as kind of fishy is that Steve entered the State Department in 1974, and it seems

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unlikely that he would have been able to complete all of that coursework and residency in the

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time before then. It's not impossible, but if he did pull that off, he's basically superhuman.

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When you add that Steve also claims to have reached the rank of 06 in the military, things

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become almost impossible to imagine. Like, generally it takes 20 years of enlistment

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to reach the rank of 06. There are definitely variables that can make things go quicker

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or slower, but from everything I've read, 20 years seems like a pretty average tenure

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of someone when they reach that rank. So now if you imagine that Steve enlisted on his

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18th birthday, he would have to reach that rank seven years quicker than average in order

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to reach that rank by the time he enters the State Department. While also simultaneously

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obtaining an M.D. and a Ph.D. from multiple universities. Prestigious universities. Basically

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breaking land speed records of collegiate achievement. So what we're saying is this

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man is either a liar or the most brilliant human being alive. And like, I have to keep

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stressing this. I'm not saying that's impossible. I'm just saying that I have a very hard time

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believing that someone could do all of that in the span of 13 years. Right. All the information

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that's available about this stuff comes directly from Steve. So I have no idea how much of

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it to believe. If any of it can be substantiated, I will gladly tip my hat to his insanely impressive

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early career. But for now, I view it with a healthy level of skepticism. Can you get

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a battlefield promotion to 06? What do you mean? Like he was he was in action and he

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saved 300 people's lives? I don't. I false flag people's lives, by the way. I don't think

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you can get all the way up that way. But there is a consideration, too, of like if you're

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a doctor and you join, apparently you can skip a rank or two. Right. But that still

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doesn't help. And here's why. Steve describes his earlier years to Alex in this part of

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his career when he made his first appearance on Alex's show in 2002. Quote, I was a very

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young 06. That's a colonel at the age of 32. I then went on to my training in psychiatry

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at the same time at Harvard. At the same time, I got my Ph.D. from M.I.T. in international

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relations. That makes things a little more complicated because Steve is clearly saying

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that he reached 06 at the age of 32. Right. Then he went on to start his residency in

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Ph.D. program. Right. Even if he got his undergrad work and M.D. at Cornell out of the way previously,

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he would still be beginning the second part of his doctoral track at 32. And unfortunately,

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that means that he would have to be at the State Department while he's a resident at

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Harvard and studying at M.I.T. because he would have been 32 in 1974, the same year

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he's supposed to have joined up with the State Department. All right. So clearly, this man

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is just dynamite. Absolutely. He was just a consultant with the State Department initially.

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But in 1976, he was made Deputy Assistant Secretary of State. So in two years, he rose

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through the ranks at the State Department, completed his residency and got a Ph.D., if

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you believe his version of the story, based on the ages that he clearly is saying that

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he was. Right, right, right. And he was a colonel at the same time. Sure. Yeah. So did

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they have to call him? If you were a colonel, wouldn't you automatically start up higher

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at the State Department? Then deputy or then consultant? Yeah. I don't know. Well, maybe.

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Maybe not. I don't know. I don't know. That's strange. Yeah. I'm sure there'd be some consideration,

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but his rank at the State Department isn't nearly even on my radar. Yeah. That's not

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even a concern of mine. It's just the logistics of these degrees and time. It's just very

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difficult. And again, I stress this is all possible, certainly, but it's the sort of

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thing that I find hard to believe as presented. Something feels off. And I'd be happy if Steve

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would be willing to produce his collegiate transcripts and service records. I will applaud

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him for having probably one of the most impressive scholastic and military careers ever. Yeah,

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absolutely. I would imagine that if I achieved these things, I would fucking publish all

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of my shit. Yeah. I would be like, oh, yeah, you don't believe me? Boom. Oh, you go. Here's

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my degree. Here's all the classes. No, there would absolutely be a paper trail because

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all of those things or any one of those things would be a relative lifetime achievement.

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And that's not to say that the fact that he hasn't published his transcripts means that

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they are not real. You know, like that would be kind of faulty of me to accuse. Right.

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I'm just saying psychologically, I would do that. Yeah. I don't publish my transcripts

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because I wasn't a good student. So if you read any bio of Steve's, one of the things

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that you notice is that they're all pretty much the same. They all have pretty much the

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same lines. They all copy and paste. A lot of the stuff that you find like in his Wikipedia

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page is just taken directly from his bio, which he has on his Web site, which I don't

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recommend people go to, because if you Google it, it gives you a warning. This site might

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be hacked. Of course. Of course. Of course. Well, he hasn't turned it off and on again.

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I had to do all of this without going to his Web site. Of course, a bit of fun. But you'll

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find if you look at all of his bios, they say, quote, he has been credited with devising

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successful negotiating strategies and tactics used in several high profile hostage situations,

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including the 1976 TWA Flight 355 hostage situation and the 1977 kidnapping of the son

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of Cyprus's president. Gotcha. So these are not things that they're saying he was involved

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in. He created these strategies. Right. Yes. Gotcha. Now, he was only a consultant at the

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State Department before 1976 when this TWA 355 or 355 hostage situation happened. Right.

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So I guess in that time, the two years that he was consulting, he could have devised that.

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I don't know. Yeah. No, that one's that one's possible, at least. Has anybody written? Well,

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actually, obviously, nobody has written a biography about him, correct? Not that I am

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aware of. No, that came up. I don't even know why I would have asked that question. If somebody

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had written a biography, you would just be reading it to me directly and questioning

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everything. And there would be a lot of copying and pasting going on. Yeah. This might be

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as close as we're going to get to a biography of him. Yeah. So that line about the the he's

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credited with devising these strategies. Yeah. That is taken in his bio and that's taken

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directly from an article in the L.A. Times written by Robert C. Toth. Toth doesn't say

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who credited Steve as creating these things. And if you read the article, Steve is the

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only source cited and the only person quoted about anything. This seems important to me

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because the article is about Steve's involvement in the negotiations to free kidnapped Italian

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Prime Minister Aldo Moro. And I know in that article he is not being entirely honest about

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the situation that he was involved in, which we'll get to later. But the fact that Steve

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is the only source in that article and he's being duplicitous to some extent. Yeah. Makes

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me question it. That's where all the things that cite his bio are cited. That's right.

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That's the evidence that it comes back to. Right. Right. And that article to me is dubious

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at best. He's like a jailhouse informant. Like you're getting paid a lot of money to

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say that this guy did a murder. I don't I don't know if he did it or not. You might

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be a little self aggrandizing here. The way I look at it more is the same way that Alex

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pays people to write articles that he then reports on. Yeah. The way that like this reporter

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is clearly talking to Steve. Steve tells him things. Right. They're in this article in

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the L.A. Times and then Steve uses blurbs from it for his bio. It's that same circular

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thing that I see. That's the feeling that I have. And it seems strange to me that Robert

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Toth wrote two articles about Steve Pachannik in 1978 that are the primary sources for almost

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every element of Steve's bio. There are other elements but they also come from other articles

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that Steve is the source of. Yeah. That seems strange to me, man. It's a good thing that

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Robert Toth isn't an anagram of Steve Pachannik. Otherwise it'd be too obvious. That would

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be too obvious. This is completely unrelated. But a year prior to him writing these two

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articles about Steve Pachannik, Robert Toth was the Moscow bureau chief for the L.A. Times

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and he was detained by the KGB on suspicion of being a spy. OK. I am convinced it's completely

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unrelated. Just the KGB harassing journalists. Yeah. But it's like, man, if I wanted to make

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a conspiracy out of this, that'd be a good element. So far it seems like literally everything

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every part of Steve Steve's life is somewhat conspiratorial. Like there's some element

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of like what the fuck is actually going on here. I don't know if it's conspiratorial

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as much as it is like maybe pretend like intentionally cloudy. Yeah. So things get a little more

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strange when you start to look at the specific cases that are mentioned as the ones that

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relied on Steve's strategies and consider them from a hostage negotiation standpoint.

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First there's the case of the hijacking of TWA Flight 355 back on September 10th, 1976.

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The plane had taken off at LaGuardia when five passengers claimed to have a bomb hijack

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the flight. The bomb was fake and the hijacking was mostly an extreme publicity stunt by Croatian

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rebels who were seeking to gain attention for their cause of gaining independence from

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Yugoslavia. That was also sponsored by Coca-Cola. So there was a big promotional thing. It was

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an extreme. It was an extreme. Mountain Dew really went for it. They had no bomb and this

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wasn't a normal terrorist hijacking. A man who was on the plane related the experience

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to the Atlantic, saying that the lead hijacker told them, quote, we are going to pass out

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papers for you to read. Read them, please. You should not worry. We have no intention

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of killing anybody. All we want is for our declaration to be published in the American

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newspapers papers. We are not asking for difficult things. We want the world to recognize the

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injustices against our people, the people of Croatia. After that, he said the mood became

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almost social on the plane, even with the hijackers. He describes it as friendly. At

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a certain point, a passenger is engaged with one of the hijackers in a conversation and

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argues with him about their political beliefs, which is crazy. That is fun. It's insane that

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is the picture that's painted by this guy in the Atlantic. Yeah, nuts. That's crazy.

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It's terrifying, but at the same time also surreal the way, you know, the first person

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account of being there and being like, it feels like friendly ish. Why are they? Why

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is everyone acting friendly? And then he's still pretty much convinced he's probably

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going to die. Right. It's crazy. Well, think about the whiplash you would experience from

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hearing somebody say we're hijacking this plane and then giving you homework. You'd

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be like, Jesus Christ, now I'm in Convenience Two ways. That'd be frustrating. You know,

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you're up there and you're like, can I trust them that they're not going to hurt us? You

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obviously can't. No, of course not. It's terrifying. At one of the stops, the hijackers decided

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to let 30 people go. They had 25 children and elderly and infirm people that they released

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and then they asked the rest of the people if any of them thought they should be allowed

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to leave because of an illness or another problem. They let one woman go because she

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was on her way to get married. Many passengers began to identify with the hijackers, which

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many people have pointed out as a classic case of Stockholm Syndrome, named after Stockholm

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Europe. Right. In his discussion of other hostage situations, Steve has said a good

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policy is, quote, no ransom, no concessions, no negotiations, which is exactly the opposite

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of what resolved the TWA 355 situation. The hijackers released everyone after they got

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exactly what they wanted, namely people publishing their political message. The strategy employed

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in this standoff doesn't seem in line with Steve's stated beliefs, nor does it match

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the techniques he's used in situations he's been directly involved in. And yet every single

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bio credits his innovations for resolving this hijacking. And yet they never specify

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what innovations they mean. I find very curious. I give a putting their stuff in the paper.

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That was a pretty big deal. They want. Yeah, I like that one. Although it's very weird.

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It does seem so far that the strategies we've talked about for hostage hostage negotiation

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have not been very complex. You know what I'm saying? Not really like Steve's strategy.

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If you can call it that is just be like, no, I don't know if that's his universal strategy.

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That's just what he said in a newspaper that he was interviewed by. That's a good he describes

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that as a good situation. So at the very least, it's a good opening bargaining point. You

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should show strength. Yeah, yeah, I guess. But also, most people say that a good strategy

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is to show willingness to negotiate because that buys you time and offers the possibility

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that the people who have taken hostages might screw up, or they might change their mind

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deescalate. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So the confusion about this first case is only heightened

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when you consider the second case that Steve's methods are said to have resolved. That's

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the December 1977 kidnapping of Achilles keep Rianu, the son of the president of Cyprus.

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The kidnappers demanded the release of 25 prisoners and if they didn't get what they

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wanted, they were going to send the president his son's head. Ultimately, negotiations did

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not lead to the freeing of prisoners like the 25 they'd asked for, but the negotiators

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did make concessions. The kidnappers were allowed safe passage out of the country in

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exchange for Achilles' release. These are situations where completely different approaches

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were taken to hostage negotiation and neither of them match with the way that Steve operates

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based on instances we definitely know about that he was directly involved in. It isn't

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like hostages were never taken before 1974 when Steve supposedly entered the State Department.

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And from what I can tell, these cases that he's credited with, designing the methods

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used to resolve, were actually resolved using pretty standard tactics that long predate

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Steve's involvement, his education, his employment. I don't know what... Without anybody ever

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giving more specifics, I don't know what they're talking about. And it doesn't seem to make

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sense just from the perspective of like, well, what's going on here?

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Okay, new theory, new theory. Steve Pachannik is DB Cooper and he got hired by the State

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Department in a catch me if you can kind of scenario. Like the only way to catch a hijacker

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is with a hijacker. You know what I'm saying?

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Interesting.

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I like that. And then you can make up a false bio because you're DB Cooper.

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Steve wasn't even involved in the hijacking one though.

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It's just not important.

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Okay.

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Steve Pachannik is DB Cooper.

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Okay. So there are a few instances of real life situations that I can confirm Steve was

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definitely at least somewhat involved in.

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Because people died, right? No, you're thinking, you're looking up, that means that definitely...

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I know that most of them people died. I do know that.

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Turns out, no, isn't a great strategy.

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To be fair, the TWA hostage plane hijacking, one cop did die in that because the hijackers

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did leave a real bomb in New York in order to sort of show that they were for real. And

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when they were trying to diffuse it, it blew up and one cop died. So at least one person

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did die in that. But yeah, Steve also has been involved in some stuff that has killed

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people.

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Sounds right.

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One of these situations was the March 9th, 1977 hostage situation in Washington DC. A

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group of Hanafi Muslims who were a radical group that had splintered away from the nation

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of Islam took over three buildings in DC, the B'nai Brith Center, the Islamic Center

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of Washington, and City Hall. The leader of the group, Hamas Kalas, made a number of demands.

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Four of his children had been murdered in 1973, and he was demanding that the men who

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are incarcerated for that crime, as well as the murderer of Malcolm X, be handed over

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to them so they could deal with them.

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Guys, I don't know if you want to be living out some Deadwood shit right there? Like where

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the mob bring out the fucking murderer? Like, that's not good.

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That was one of the demands.

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That's not a smart way of going.

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And they did not get that.

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They didn't get that done?

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No, that was not satisfied.

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That's a surprise.

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However, some of the other demands were met. For one, Kalas wanted the $750 back that he

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was fined for contempt of court, stemming from his disruption of the trial of the killers

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he wanted handed over. He got that money back.

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Sure.

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Further, he wanted...

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That's such the easiest, like, I want $750. Okay.

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Sure.

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You get it.

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Further, he wanted the upcoming premiere of the film Muhammad, Messenger of God, canceled

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since he deemed it sacrilegious. And that premiere was canceled.

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Right. And he wanted the new Star Wars movie pushed up.

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In 1973?

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1973.

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In Jeffrey David Simon's book, The Terrorist Trap, America's Experience with Terrorism,

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the event is discussed. And according to his telling of the story, quote, the incident

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was finally resolved with the assistance of three Muslim diplomats, the ambassadors of

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Pakistan, Iran, and Egypt, who met with Kalas and other Hanafi leaders for more than three

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hours and read to them from the Koran, appealing to their consciences.

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Wow. That has zero Steve Pagenik.

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Well, now, let's compare that to what Steve told Alex about the incident in his 2002...

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Steve hates Islam in general.

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I don't know if that's entirely true. You could get that impression, but I'm not entirely

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sure if I'm gonna go... Like, Alex hates him more.

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Right. Fair. Fair.

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So he describes his involvement in the incident and his 2002 debut appearance on Infowars.

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Quote, I had three buildings here held hostage by a fundamentalist group called the Hanafi

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regime. And he knew he was being manipulated. The FBI called me in and I used the Koran

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to take over control. And eventually he couldn't help but follow the orders that we gave him

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and he eventually released the hostages.

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It was because of magic.

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Steve used the Koran.

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He read the Koran to them with, obviously, a thin magical thread that he wrote their

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names into a pillow on in order to control them.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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And he wrote a very different version of the story than the accounts that I can find elsewhere.

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He really downplayed those diplomats. He really left them out of the story.

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The ones who went in to a hostage situation and tried to appeal to their conscience.

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Right. Right, right, right.

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So this is incredibly complicated for me to make sense of because I can't escape the fact

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that a March 13th 1977 article in the Eugene Register-Guard does seem to confirm that Steve

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was involved in the response to the standoff, saying he was, quote, in the picture and,

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quote, working side by side with Police Chief Maurice Collinane.

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At the same time, Jeffrey David Simon's book doesn't mention Steve at all, but it does

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say, quote, also joining the negotiations were U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia

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Earl Silbert and Deputy Attorney General Designee Peter Flaherty.

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The book even quotes Police Chief Maurice Collinane, and there's no mention of Steve.

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He mentions the head of the FBI and attorney general being at the command post, but everything

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we can learn about Steve's involvement comes from his own mouth, either through his telling

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of the story or quotes he's provided to newspapers.

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Which I don't I don't know. I mean, he was there.

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Right. Right. But if you've got deputies, a attorney, a deputy attorney's general, deputy's

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attorney.

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Yeah, I'm not sure where the plan goes.

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Yeah. And then you've got the head of the FBI and then you've got all these other guys.

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Even if he's any one of 06 medical doctor or international relations, P.P.H.D., he's

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still not top billed.

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You know, I think if Steve were running the show and he was the one using the Koran to

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everybody would be talking about, I think history would reflect that for sure.

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But I don't I don't necessarily see it.

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I'm not entirely sure. I don't want to discount and take away from the fact that, like, he

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was there and involved. But I don't know, I think it might be specifically told all

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of these people to not mention him.

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Yeah, don't snitch. Yeah, exactly.

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I don't know. I think what it looks like to me is perhaps an exaggeration of his involvement.

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Perhaps it feels like it might be.

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I would go with high likelihood of exaggeration.

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So Steve resigned from the State Department on November 7th, 1979, because he was upset

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with the handling of the Iranian hostage crisis.

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Yeah, go home and tell your mothers you're brilliant.

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I'm out of here.

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Apparently, he wasn't happy that he wasn't called in to resolve the situation, telling

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reporter Georgie Ann Gayer, quote, I had to walk into the operation center on my own after

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72 hours.

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This is a little confusing to me, because here we have a guy who's revolutionized the

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entire world of hostage negotiation, who is called in whenever there's a big crisis unfolding,

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who's considered a genius in high-pressure situations, and no one calls him when the

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big game is starting here with this Iranian hostage situation.

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That just doesn't track.

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If the people in the State Department knew that they had the king of hostage negotiators

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at their disposal, there's literally no reason they wouldn't use him when a potentially explosive

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hostage situation breaks out.

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I'm guessing Alex might want to write this off as the State Department secretly not wanting

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the crisis to be diffused, so they keep Steve away from it, knowing that he would easily

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be able to set things straight.

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A more real-world explanation may be that they didn't trust Steve, and that maybe that

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has something to do with his most recent, at that point, high-profile job.

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One of the few things we absolutely know Steve was involved in, and that is the botched negotiations

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to free the kidnapped Italian Prime Minister Aldo Moro.

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This is one of the more documented pieces of Steve's history, and it's crazy.

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It's legitimately insane.

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I can't wait.

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In 1976, Aldo Moro and the Italian Communist Party had joined together in what's now known

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as the historic compromise, where they began developing a political alliance, where they

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would share governmental power.

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They were going to call it the three-fifths compromise, because it made sense in that

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situation, but then they heard about ours, and they were like, no, no, no, no, no, historic.

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It was revolutionary stuff.

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It was one of the first times that Communist parties would be involved in a coalition government

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up till that point.

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Perhaps not coincidentally, the day Moro was kidnapped, he was on his way to Parliament

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to attend the historic first joint voting of the Christian Democrats and the Communist

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Party.

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The kidnapping severely hurt the Communists, and put this attempt at cooperation completely

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on ice.

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Moro had been kidnapped by terrorists on March 16, 1978.

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He was ultimately held for 55 days, during which time the Red Brigades gave him a criminal

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trial.

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Apparently, he was found guilty, because on May 9, his body was found in the trunk of

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a car.

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Everybody that I can find specifically points out that the car that he was found in was

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equidistant from the Communist Party and Christian Democrat headquarters, as if it's a message

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of...

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Oh, man.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I see that written all over the place, and I don't know if it's true, but I don't know

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what.

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Could be apocryphal, but goddamn, if it's a good image.

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If it's apocryphal, it shows up in every single report.

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Print the legend, Dan.

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Yeah.

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So for three weeks during this period, Steve Pachannik was secretly working and meeting

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with the Italian authorities and intelligence, helping craft a strategy to negotiate the

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release of Aldo Moro.

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What if we said no?

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Yeah.

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However, in April, Steve left Italy and gave up, having decided that Moro was the victim

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of a setup and that there wasn't anything and anyone in the government that he could

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really even trust.

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Quote, given the deployment of paramilitary forces, I found it increasingly difficult

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to believe that they could not find him, that they had no clues to follow.

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I realized that the whole situation was compromised.

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What I suspected, and that was why I left early, was that they didn't really care to

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pull Moro out alive.

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This is one version of the story that he's told, that he was just a good guy trying to

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get the job done, but everyone else, they were a bunch of snakes.

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I'm gonna go with he got fired.

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That's not the case.

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Oh, no?

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No, no.

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Because he still worked at the State Department after this.

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No, I mean from the negotiations.

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There's no indication that I have of that either.

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Okay.

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I just think maybe things didn't go as planned.

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Yeah.

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The story about his involvement in the Moro affair has changed a bit over the years.

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In 2008, a documentary was released called, The Last Days of Aldo Moro.

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In the film, Steve admits that the decision was made to let Moro die and that baiting

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the kidnappers into killing him was the only solution available.

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Quote, the decision was made in the fourth week of the kidnapping when Moro's letters

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became more desperate and he was about to reveal state secrets.

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Hey, assholes, for real.

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Well, that's the position that he was putting forth is like Moro was allowed to write letters

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back to the government and what have you, and they were getting the tone.

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They're like, he's gonna start telling the Red Brigades a bunch of shit.

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Yeah.

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So, Steve, and this is not backed up by anything, correct?

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I don't know.

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Steve's saying that the Italian government was literally like, let's let him die?

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I don't know.

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You're looking at me with very pregnant eyes.

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Well, many people don't believe Steve, which I think is a pretty healthy instinct.

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Yeah, that's a good start.

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However, some people do.

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In 2014, the International Business Times reported that quote, prosecutors in Rome said

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there's serious evidence suggesting Steve Pechenik, a former State Department international

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crisis manager, participated in the murder that shocked Italy.

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Considering he'd more or less admit as much on tape six years prior, I don't think that's

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too shocking of a report.

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Yeah, that sounds right.

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Both Steve and Italian Interior Minister Francesco Cosiga have admitted that they released a

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false statement attributed to the kidnappers, known as Communication Number 7, which announced

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that Moro was dead, though he was still alive in captivity.

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Steve admitted that they did this to gauge the public's reaction to news of Moro's death,

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as well as to send a message to the Red Brigades that they didn't care whether Moro lived or

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died, that they considered him dead already.

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That's fucked up.

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Yeah.

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That is really, no, you can't do that.

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We don't have people who do that, right?

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We got one guy.

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That's not a thing that you can do.

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Nobody's, no.

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So he literally just sent this message of just like, we're going to be out in front

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of this story.

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We're saying he's dead.

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So you have the option of killing him or making him the fucking Jesus.

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Those are your options.

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Moro.

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Red Brigades.

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Yeah.

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That's Steve's idea.

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Hey.

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Well, we don't know if it's Steve's idea, but he participated in it.

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It could have been the Interior Minister who came up with this, but Steve seems to relish

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in it as a good idea.

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So this is...

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And this was not known for quite a while.

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When I mentioned that that article, a lot of his bio comes from, it involves the Aldo

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Moro kidnapping, this stuff is not, it's not public at this point.

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He's presenting a different version of the events that happened.

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So other people are like, ah, this guy, ah, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

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And then the International Business Times is like, oh, that dude murdered a dude.

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Later this information came out and both of them have admitted that they sent this fake

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communication, which was part of trying to manipulate the kidnappers, which probably

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led them to not believe that they had a bargaining chip anymore.

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Yeah, obviously.

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So to quote Steve, speaking about the Red Brigades, quote, I drew them into a trap where

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the only thing they could do eventually was kill Aldo Moro.

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Steve literally...

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Yes, I trapped you.

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Steve literally says that he did this through a psychological operation, a psy-op.

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Steve's goal was not to free Aldo Moro.

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His goal was to protect the established power structure.

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And once it got to a point where it was decided that Moro was a threat, he worked to get Moro

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killed.

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Freeing him wouldn't be advantageous since Moro's letters indicated a feeling of being

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betrayed by his associates, and they worried that if he made it out alive, he would use

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their inaction to save him against them politically.

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Simultaneously, they couldn't take the risk of the Red Brigades not killing Moro, because

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if they kept him alive long enough and treated him well, his animosity toward the people

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who were not rescuing him could grow to the point where he might leak information to the

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Red Brigade to hurt them politically, because he'd get like the Stockholm syndrome kind

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of thing.

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It was them saying, okay, we're the bad guys here, so let's kill him.

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I don't know.

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I don't know how to describe it, but I don't know if that's far off.

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In order to maintain the status quo, to paraphrase Steve Pechenik, Aldo Moro had to be sacrificed.

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In that documentary, The Last Days of Aldo Moro, the filmmakers talked to a couple of

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former members of the Red Brigades.

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Here's an excerpt of that documentary where they discuss the interrogations of Moro, which

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they were present for.

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The first voice you'll hear is a woman named Adriana Feranda, and the second is a guy named

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Valerio Morucci, both active members of the Red Brigade.

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Still, or just back down?

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And meanwhile, held in his cell in the Via Montalcini, the hostage is interrogated every

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day by his Red Brigade kidnappers.

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Convinced that the country is politically and economically enslaved, they attempt to

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make him confess to links that exist between the Italian state and multinational companies.

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The comrades who interrogated Moro were expecting him to confirm what they had imagined about

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the Italian state.

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To confirm that there existed an imperialist multinational state, and that the United States

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were the brains behind this vast globalised restructuring.

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In fact, Moro talked about a reality that was much more complex and not so easy to decipher.

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And the comrades quickly felt they were being duped.

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They said that Moro was deliberately not answering their questions, but trying to waste their

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time, or rather, trying to gain some time.

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Our leader, Moretti, couldn't get Moro to give way.

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According to him, Moro's answers were partly true, but only partially.

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The reality was much more complex, but for a brigade member, it was incomprehensible.

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For us, reality was much more simple.

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There were causes and effects, that's all.

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The complexity, the intrigues, the overlapping, the contradictions, we couldn't understand

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all that.

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After a few days, the interrogations stopped and Moro began to write for himself.

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He didn't seek to convince us because he understood that in no way did we want to kill him.

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He knew that his negotiating partner was now the state, and no longer the Red Brigades.

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So who do these Red Brigade people sound like?

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Militant anti-government rebels who believe in a one-world government who refuse to accept

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any kind of complexity?

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I don't know.

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Does it sound like a guy we do a podcast with?

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I can't think of anything.

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I was just hearing that, just thinking like, oh, isn't that such the way of it?

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Do not try and explain complex situations to people who are like, tell us everything

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we want to hear.

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Do not tell us the truth.

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Please.

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Please don't tell us the truth.

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Confirm for us all of our paranoid fantasies about how the world works that are based on

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oversimplifications and black and white thinking.

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It's not like that.

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You've got to understand.

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X, Y, Z.

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Oh, God.

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Right.

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Can't compute.

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Yeah.

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Now we're held hostage by an entire country run by that thought process.

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So in an interview Steve did with the St. Petersburg Times from April 21st, 1978, he's

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pretty clear that he thinks the Moro situation worked out well.

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I killed Moro myself.

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Because the government didn't have to resort to extreme actions, which he felt would threaten

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the credibility and viability of the state.

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Of course, like I said, in 1978, when he's talking to this newspaper, he was pretending

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that he and Kasinga hadn't sent out fake communication number seven.

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Man, that's fucked up.

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That shit's not supposed to happen in real life.

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That's a born identity movie plot right there.

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Like that's stupid.

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So this went bad from a larger perspective.

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Yeah.

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Aldo Moro probably wasn't...

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If you're a hostage negotiator and you're sent in by the State Department at Jimmy Carter's

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behest to go and try and resolve a situation where a head of state of an allied country

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has been kidnapped by rebels, you don't necessarily want to come out of that with a dead prime

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minister in the trunk of a car.

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It's not a great thing.

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So my feeling on it is possibly that Steve Pachanik punted on this, just screwed up,

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and then wasn't involved in the Iranian hostage crisis because he had just been coming off

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this terrible outing where the fucking prime minister got assassinated.

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So here's how I think that would go.

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Jimmy Carter is like, hey, let's send some people to help save the prime minister's life.

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And Steve Pachanik is like, okay, I'm going to kill him.

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And Jimmy Carter is like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you don't understand.

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We want to go save his life.

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And Steve Pachanik is like, I'm going to wink really loudly right now.

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Did I say that out loud?

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Anyways, I'm going to kill him.

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Steve has a lot of quotes also from his past about being a rogue and stuff like that.

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And so the idea that he might've just been like, I got a fucking crazy idea here.

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Let's see if this works.

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He's like a punk hostage negotiator, you know, what's more cool and underground than negotiating

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the opposite of what you're supposed to.

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Man, it's 78.

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Punk is hot at that point.

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Yeah, exactly.

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He's talking to them.

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He's like, what if we asked you to kill him more?

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Yeah.

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So the other big piece of Steve's resume that always comes up is the Camp David Accords.

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He is always cited as being involved in the Camp David Accords, which took place in September

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1978.

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Jimmy Carter brought Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin and Egyptian President Anwar

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Sadat to Camp David to have a peace summit.

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Carter, Carter, what if we killed him?

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Without exception, whenever Steve's bio is repeated, it will say that he was, quote,

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instrumental in getting the Accords signed.

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And that to me is very interesting.

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It seems entirely likely that Steve could have been at the staff that was there at the

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time.

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It's in between the Moro affair and his resignation in 1979, so it's believable that he would

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be there as a State Department attache.

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The problem comes in when you try to define what the word instrumental means, because

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no source I can find that doesn't trace directly back to Steve credits him with being instrumental

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in the Accords.

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Well, he locked the door behind him when he left the room and the doors are locked from

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the outside, so they wouldn't even have been able to leave without the Accords.

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He is instrumental in that.

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I will say that like a lot of the sources on the Camp David Accords do say like the

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primary goal is not letting them leave without, so if he did lock the doors, you could make

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the argument that he was instrumental.

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I'm not saying that he wasn't there.

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I'm perfectly willing to believe that he was, but I don't know if I trust his depiction

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of it.

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Every other source I can find seems to put far more emphasis on Zbigniew Brzezinski's

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involvement.

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He seems to be a major player in the negotiations, even down to that famous picture of him playing

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chess against Menachem Begin.

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Yeah, one of those people is a historical figure, and then the other one is Zbigniew

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Brzezinski.

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Like, who even knows who that fucking guy is?

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Sure.

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You know what I'm saying?

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Yeah, man.

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We got Stevie P's in there!

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Right.

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It seems strange that Steve did all this stuff when everybody else agrees that it was someone

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else.

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Yeah.

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I don't know, though.

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It could be a grand conspiracy to malign Steve Paczentk and make sure that his brand of roguish

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hostile negotiation never takes over.

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I don't know.

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I mean, so here's the only thing that I could say, is that obviously the guy at the, you

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know, if you're an aide or a secretary or something along those lines, sure, generally

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speaking, they do all the legwork and the face gets all the accolades, you know.

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But in this type of situation, usually those guys are not listening to Steve Paczentk,

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deputy assistant to the secretary of state.

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He is the deputy.

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He is a deputy.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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And there are a lot of deputy assistant secretaries of state under the various assistant secretaries

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of state.

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Right.

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There are a lot of those.

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Yeah.

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And so like, yeah, it is a cool position to be in and I'd never knock somebody for reaching

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that level of achievement, but it's also easy to say that you're doing a lot more than you

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are possibly.

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Yeah.

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Now, one of the things they find incredibly difficult is that Steve Paczentk definitely

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was in that position from 1974 when he was a consultant to 1976 when he became a deputy

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assistant secretary of state to 1979 when he quit over the Iran hostage situation.

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I know that to be true.

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From contemporary reports, from definitive things you can trace down.

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He was in that role.

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According to Steve, when he's on Alex's show, according to his bio, he took a little time

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off and then returned and served under Reagan and Bush senior.

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Gotcha.

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His bio...

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Where he orchestrated 9-11, presumably.

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Presumably.

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Yeah.

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His bio consistently says that he worked under four or five administrations.

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What?

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They don't really get the story straight.

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His bio says four or five.

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No.

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There's multiple bios.

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It depends on which bio you're reading.

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Okay.

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That's an issue.

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There's an inconsistency of whether it's four or five administrations.

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Maybe they're just not taking into account Ford.

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I don't know.

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Right.

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Eh.

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I have no idea what the situation is, but there's a lack of clarity there.

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So we get into the early 80s here.

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After the Iranian hostage crisis and Steve's resignation from the State Department, he

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starts showing up on places like CBS and ABC talking to a number of newspapers also.

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He's offering his expert opinion on how things are going with hostages.

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In all instances, he's credited as a psychiatrist...

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I think too many are surviving these days.

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Oh, boy.

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In all of these appearances, all of these times he's in the newspapers, he's credited

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as a psychiatrist and former member of the State Department.

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Right.

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Right.

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On February 17th, 1981, Steve formally accuses the State Department of sanctioning the attack

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that killed U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan Adolph Dobbs.

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Dobbs had been kidnapped by militants.

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And as the story goes, the U.S. urged patience and negotiation, whereas the Afghanistan government

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took a more rash approach and attacked the militants, which led to the ambassador's death.

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There was tremendous fallout from this incident as the U.S. began to change its stance towards

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Afghanistan and drastically cut back foreign aid.

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Steve claimed he was in the room when permission was given for the Afghan forces to attack,

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but no evidence has ever been produced to back those claims up.

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He said he knows the name of the official who gave permission, but, quote, doesn't want

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to identify the official because he doesn't want the case to become an indictment of just

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one person, but to focus the attention on the U.S. anti-terrorist policy.

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This is shockingly similar to what he told Alex Jones about 9-11, saying he knows the

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names of generals who were involved in the false flag, but wouldn't reveal them.

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This seems like a pattern.

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Yeah.

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I would also point you to my doctoral supervisor at MIT, but unfortunately they died.

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I'm sorry you can't talk to him.

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Oh, no.

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My bad.

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Such a weird thing.

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According to the United Press International, an article on that, quote, State Department

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spokesman William Dice said officials involved in -

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Hey!

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No.

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Sorry.

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The officials involved in the Dub's kidnapping had been consulted and communications logs

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reviewed.

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And then he said, the allegations by Pechenik are incorrect.

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All concerned stress the need for restraint as well as avoiding a precipitous assault.

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It strains credulity for me to imagine that Steve Pechenik could be involved in the bungled

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Moro negotiations, quit over not being involved in the Iranian hostage crisis, then take to

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the media to accuse the State Department of being complicit in the murder of an ambassador,

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then get his job back at the State Department.

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That feels like, you know, it feels like this kind of an act of making public accusations

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like this would probably disqualify someone from getting a sensitive job back.

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Ah, but it would qualify for you getting a secret State Department job, Dan.

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I think it would be even more disqualifying.

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No way!

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You've shown that you can't keep your goddamn mouth shut.

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No, what you've shown is how to run disinformation campaigns on your own.

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I guess that would be -

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That's taking initiative, Dan.

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That would be an interesting way to, like, freelance resume it, like, look what I did

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on my own.

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I accused you of murder.

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Yeah, it's like when the government goes after people who play video games well and

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hires them to run all of their -

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Like in The Last Starfighter?

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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That's Steve Pechenik last Starfighter to his way to the secret State Department.

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I don't know about that.

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I don't know.

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I mean, I don't - I don't know.

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I mean, I don't know about that.

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In articles in The New York Times from 1982, 1985, and 1991, Steve is consistently credited

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as a former member of the State Department who is now in private practice.

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And all this is during the time that he supposedly was back in the State Department under Reagan

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and Bush Sr.

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There's no indication from contemporary sources that he ever worked in the government in an

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official capacity, passed his resignation in 1979.

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And that would make total sense based on his behavior and his actions.

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Yeah.

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I mean, you are anybody who is involved in vetting for, like, State Department stuff.

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And you know, I don't give a good goddamn how good Steve is at his job.

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If he comes out and publicly in newspapers and media accuses us of planning the murder

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of an ambassador, he's not getting credentials again.

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He's not getting clearance.

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Yeah, because he would have - I mean, if he was still in the union, maybe, but I don't

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think so.

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There's tremendous risk to your insulation of information if he's shown himself willing

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to -

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Oh, yeah.

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Like, if this is true, this is disqualifying.

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If it's fake, it's more disqualifying.

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Well, not just that, but I'm sure that in real life he was a fucking joke at the State

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Department.

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And if they did give his resume, they'd be like, is this the guy that killed Morrow?

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Whatever.

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Get out of here.

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Get the fuck out of here.

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I have not been able to find any resources on whether or not he was a joke at the State

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Department.

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But, so I don't know.

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It's weird.

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Quick question.

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Why are so many people quoting him in articles?

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Is it just because he's available?

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Now, it's interesting that you asked that.

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Ah, because he's a shameless self-promoter?

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I think so.

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And a lot of them are written by the same people.

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Gotcha.

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He seems to have a tendency to have someone who's this go-to person.

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Right, right, right.

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Who's that Robert C. Toth for a minute?

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There's a couple articles that he printed about Steve.

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And then that Georgie Ann Gayer, she seems to be someone who Steve went to over and over

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and over again.

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She wrote stuff about how he's a brilliant mind and considered one of the best.

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I don't know if there's anything suspicious about him, but I think people like Steve like

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to have a reliable place where they can funnel information.

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And get positive.

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And so a number of these stories are written by, in other instances, there's every reason

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to go to him for comment.

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Like in the late 70s, especially, there's every reason to treat him like somebody who,

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like he's a rising star in the State Department.

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He's involved in like the Hanafi standoff.

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You could paint that as like a big success.

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So like there's...

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Oh, that's fair.

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So I see the press as being like, obviously there would be an interest in him.

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But as time goes on, I think there's much less of it.

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Useful idiots, in a certain sense.

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Until Alex comes along.

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The most idiot useful of all.

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Yeah, Alex does seem to fit the pattern that he has of a couple of these journalists that

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he goes back to the well with.

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Right, right, right.

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And Alex seems to be the ultimate in that because he's on the radio, he's stupid.

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That helps.

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Yeah.

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So I have no idea what the reality is of him trying to go back to the State Department

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and or whatever.

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I have no idea.

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And honestly, it would be impossible for me to ever really get to the bottom of it.

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These are secretive and clandestine waters, after all.

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So how easily would it be to rebut everything I can bring to the table by saying, like,

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Steve was working for the government secretly.

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Yeah, there you go.

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In an unofficial capacity.

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Fucking I did that.

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Exactly.

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I can't really address anything like that in the same way that I can't disprove the

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existence of space raptors.

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But I can tell you from all the sources that are available from the late 70s through early

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90s, there is a consistent thread.

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Until 1979, Steve is credited in articles as a current deputy assistant secretary of

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state.

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And after he's a privately practicing psychiatrist who used to work in government.

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Until I see some proof to the contrary, there's no reason for me to believe he was ever in

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the game past 1979.

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Everything else could easily just be him doing his own thing, man.

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That would be such a weird thing to go from negotiating the murder of a prime minister

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to your own private psychiatric practice.

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Wouldn't that be so weird to.

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That's a difference in in status or stature that you still like really, really big, really,

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really big.

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I mean, psychiatrists are still pretty well respected in our culture.

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They're very well respected, but most of them have never killed a prime minister.

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That's true.

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That is true.

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And, you know, just be clear.

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He killed the prime minister.

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He got the prime minister killed.

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That's not entirely clear.

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But the situation was one hundred percent not handled in a way that it was appropriate.

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So we get to 2002 and Steve Puchenik makes his first appearance on the Alex Jones show

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on April 24th, 2002.

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And while I can't find audio of that first interview, I did find a transcript and it's

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a fantastic, fascinating document.

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From the very beginning, Steve was playing to Alex's narcissism.

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Listen to this exchange that comes just after Steve lays out some of his credentials.

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Alex, quote, we're talking to Dr. Steve Puchenik, and he's worked at the highest levels of psychological

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operations for four administrations.

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You're talking about controlling paradigms, paradigm management, Steve, quote, Well, that's

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interesting.

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I've never used that word paradigm, but you clearly you must be a professor, Alex.

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Jesus Christ.

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That's flattery.

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Yeah.

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And it's a lie.

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Yeah.

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In a 2012 1977 article in the St. Petersburg Times discussing the B'nai B'rith Hanafi standoff,

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Steve said, quote, This was a paradigm of unusual cooperation between different agencies

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and countries.

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Stop it.

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Stop it.

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I never used the word paradigm.

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Stop it.

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You must be a professor, Alex.

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That is petty.

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That is petty, Dan.

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That's receipts.

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We already saw that he was lying his fucking teeth off.

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But I mean, it's good to see it demonstrated in 1977.

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That is fun.

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That is fun.

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Maybe it's instinct or maybe Steve did his homework in advance.

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But looking at this exchange, he seems to know exactly how to ingratiate himself to

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Alex.

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Alex brings up that Steve is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations in a really skeptical

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way.

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And Steve reassures him that the CFR is basically a rotary club.

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He hasn't been to a meeting in years and he's also a member of the NRA.

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So what do you think about that?

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I'm a member of that.

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Yeah.

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Minutes into the interview, Alex is saying shit like, quote, We're talking to Dr. Steve

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Puchenik and he's one of the info warriors in four administrations crafting much of the

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policy that we've seen over the last 20, 30 years.

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And I'm so honored to have you on the show tonight.

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He is so fucking stupid.

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Flips.

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I hate him so much.

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Based on everything I know about Alex Jones, he should be almost entirely against the policies

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we've seen in the previous 20 to 30 years.

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And yet he is, here he is, praising the man he's crediting with crafting those policies.

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Yeah.

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It makes no sense.

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I think after hearing about the previous journalists writing and looking to Steve for blurbs, it

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makes way more sense that he would be as polished and good as he is in 2002 to now.

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Like he's already, he's already honed his bullshit for almost 20 years.

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You know, like he's been gone to nearly at his higher level.

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No, no, absolutely not.

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But that's what I'm saying.

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He's been, he's been working out at open mics.

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He's been working out at those road gigs, getting that in.

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And then when Alex comes along, he's at the height of his fucking power.

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And it's like an easy room too.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Especially for someone who has like the appearance of these, like super elevated credentials

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like he does.

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Yeah.

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He was doing comedy on state department.

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All right.

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Hey, that's a reference for almost nobody.

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As Steve continued making appearances on Alex's show, particularly in the 2011, 2012 timeframe,

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he took particular aim at President Obama.

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He called him a sociopath and unfit to be in office.

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And in fairness to Steve, he'd also said some pretty horrible things about George H.W. Bush

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while Bush was still in office.

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He'd called him, quote, clinically depressed and obviously in the midst of a serious identity

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crisis.

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In even further fairness to Steve, in 1978, he complained to the LA Times about how people

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were lazy in psychoanalyzing President Carter, saying, quote, I personally feel it's unethical

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to write psycho history about a president while he's still in office.

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These studies do not take adequately into account the many constraints, the checks and

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balances, the many hats which the president wears.

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I guess he changed his mind on that.

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Well, he was still working at the time, and I imagine that H.W. and Obama neither were

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very open to his resume anymore.

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That is possible.

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Yeah.

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So I found some interesting things, and that is that Steve Pachannik has been published

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in respectable journals.

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OK.

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Let's say.

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In his capacity as a psychiatrist.

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And sort of international affair kind of things, like intelligence, that sort of thing.

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He's published two articles that are very short.

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In the American Intelligence Journal, one of them is called-

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Kill them.

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Kill them all.

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One of them is called Putin KGB Forever, which is really funny because he's pretty pro-Putin

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in 2015 when he's talking to Alex.

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But he wrote another article in volume 22 of the American Intelligence Journal.

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It's called A Mandate for Intelligence, in which he argues that the national security

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infrastructure in America was woefully underutilizing resources that could be gained by gathering

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human intelligence.

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He describes a bit of the complaints that he has like this.

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Quote, unfortunately, effective integration of civilian military intelligence, counterintelligence

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and psyops has been absent from the government for well over a decade.

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This has led to a serious inability to predict human behavior and prevent evolving crises.

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This is a strange position for Steve to have when compared to the positions he takes on

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Alex's show.

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In one of his appearances on the show, Steve literally tells Alex, quote, it has to do

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with the famous technique in warfare that we call the stand down, false flag, deception

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and denial.

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It was done during Pearl Harbor.

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Uh oh, it was a false flag.

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It was a false flag.

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There it is.

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There it is.

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Alex explained it to you yesterday.

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It was done by Hitler.

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It was done by LBJ during the war in Vietnam, where we had the Gulf of Tonkin and he claimed

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we had a false flag operation and we had to shoot the Vietnamese because they shot at

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us.

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That was wrong.

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Many men died for that.

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Many men went to war seems very against false flags, deception, psyops, counterintelligence.

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When he's talking to Alex, when he's writing in the American Intelligence Journal, he seems

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to be pro those things and say that they've been gone for a well over a decade in the

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United States.

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Ah, boy, he sounds like a liar.

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It seems a bit contradictory.

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He doesn't sound like he's being honest with, I don't know, fucking anybody could be.

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One of Steve's suggestions for how to resolve the problem of limited use of human intelligence

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is to, quote, develop open source predictive intelligence, which is to say that he was

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interested in taking already public information and using it for intelligence gathering purposes.

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Quote, what is needed is an up and down change in the culture of intelligence community,

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where 90 percent of what's required for operations already exists in open source venues such

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as newspapers, magazines, TV, radio, and most importantly, the Internet.

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As usual, American entrepreneurs have anticipated this intelligence conundrum and accordingly

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have developed extremely capable software for data mining, cataloging, managing restricted

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content and predicting behavior.

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Major cooperation between the business community and the intelligence community is imperative.

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Did he create fucking Cambridge Analytica?

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What the fuck is wrong with this guy?

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Finishing the quote, kudos to the CIA and Defense Department for having already created

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joint ventures with the information technology startup.

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God damn it.

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That's amazing.

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Wow.

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That's very much against what Alex believes.

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Wow.

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So he's the one.

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Kudos.

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Literally, like I am angling and hopeful for a massive surveillance state fucking utilizing

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already public information to control and manipulate the population.

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And by the way, Alex, I'm against the globalists who are absolutely.

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Did you say that they were doing exactly that?

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Well, kudos to everybody else doing that and fuck the globalists.

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And this wasn't a stray idea that Steve had in this 2004 article.

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Yeah.

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In 2001, he was the CEO of a consulting firm called Strategic Intelligence Associates.

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And in his capacity, he was profiled in a November 30, 2001 post in the National Defense

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magazine, arguing that the intelligence gathering should be outsourced to the private sector.

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It seems very strange for me that in all the times I've heard Steve on Alex's show, I've

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never heard it come up that Steve was the head of a consulting firm that was advocating

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for the creation of private spy businesses and advocating for spying cooperation between

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the government and tech startups.

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It really seems like that's something Alex would be massively against.

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Yeah.

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It's half of his content to the present day.

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That is bananas to me that the, wow.

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Yeah.

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Going back 18 years, Steve had been advocating for that sort of thing.

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And I don't...

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I mean, now, in his, now, if I were, I suppose, looking at it from his perspective in that

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kind of field, that would be something that you say to a higher up in the spy world, and

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they'd be like, genius.

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So that's a good idea from his world.

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That's an interesting perspective on it.

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Yeah.

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Like I could see him being praised for that as a position.

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Sure.

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In certain circles, not by us or by Alex.

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And to be clear, this is a big point where I don't know what the fuck is going on.

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And for me to try and pitch a theory about it would be irresponsible and out of line

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for me.

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Of course.

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I can't tell you why what he's saying in this journal doesn't seem to match at all with

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what Alex believes or what he leads Alex to believe.

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Because if he was talking with Alex and he's like, oh, also, I run a intelligence consulting

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business that is super into creating private spy companies, I don't imagine Alex going

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along with that back in like 2002.

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I don't see that being, I don't know.

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But as part of his consulting for creating private spy agencies, I'm going on your show,

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Alex, in order to fucking monitor that, holy shit, this dude.

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Now, I also don't know how successful this consulting business was.

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Probably not great.

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And I don't think it was much more than just him.

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I don't have any reason to believe that it was a massive outlet or anything.

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I don't know.

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It was a tax dodge.

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Could be.

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Who knows?

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So, one of the other huge pieces of Steve's resume is that he has an association with

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Tom Clancy.

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Yes, of course.

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In his bio, Steve's writing career is generally encapsulated as saying that he ghost wrote

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books for Tom Clancy.

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Great.

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Who hasn't?

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In interviews with Alex Jones, the story has gone so far as to be that Steve himself is

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the inspiration for Jack Ryan, which, based on everything I can tell, doesn't seem true.

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What?

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Steve is just Harrison Ford, man.

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What?

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And I promise you, this is not buzz marketing for that new Amazon series with John Krasinski.

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No.

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Now available.

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Really?

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Good Amazon Prime.

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Stop it.

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This is not buzz marketing.

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Stop it.

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Get the fuck out of here.

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Get the fuck out of here.

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So, he's told Alex, or Alex has said multiple times, and Steve's never corrected him, that

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he is the inspiration.

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You watch Patriot Games?

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Yeah.

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You watch A Hunt for Red October?

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That's Steve Pacenik in that movie.

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He's both Sean Connery and... Never mind.

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Did I get one wrong there?

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I don't like those movies.

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No, The Hunt for Red October was Sean Connery and Alec Baldwin.

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Oh, was it?

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Yeah.

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Oh, my bad.

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I just assumed that... One of the great Russian accents coming from

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Sean Connery.

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The greatest.

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I haven't seen those movies in a very long time.

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I don't care about them at all.

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Top five Russian accents.

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And I just assumed John Krasinski had always played the role.

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Fine.

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So.

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Works for me.

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Amazon Prime.

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What's great is that's my attempt at a fake version of Buzz Marketing.

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Yeah, I know.

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I just yell Amazon Prime.

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So Clancy himself told the Washington Post in 1995 about Steve, quote, I don't know if

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he's a model for Jack Ryan, but we're buddies.

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It's that simple.

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Oh.

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Well, that's-

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That seems to contradict the idea that he is the inspiration.

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Right.

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But it does probably lead one to assume that much like other writers that Steve has been

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in the orbit of, he insinuated himself into Tom Clancy's circle by being very flattering.

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And I bet that Steve is fucking interesting as hell.

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I bet if you were hanging out with him, he would tell amazing stories.

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Yeah.

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Probably not real.

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No.

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Maybe based on a kernel of reality, but probably deeply embellished.

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Probably more real than three globalists in a hot tub.

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Maybe.

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So it's literally impossible, actually.

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I've been kind of coy about this.

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You've been cagey.

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Yeah.

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It's literally impossible for Jack Ryan to be based on Steve, even by Steve's own words.

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In 1995, Steve and Clancy co-produced a TV miniseries that starred the great Harry Hamlin

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and Wilford Brimley.

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In a puff piece about it in the Washington Post, Steve explains how he met Tom Clancy.

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Quote, a decade ago, he recalled, he was browsing a book fair and happened by a Naval Institute

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press kiosk.

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Quote, I picked up this book with a submarine on the cover and paged through it.

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Based on his experience as a negotiator, Pacanik thought the author displayed great insight

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on the Soviets, and the submarine stuff was fantastic.

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He pointed out the book and its author to his agent.

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The book was The Hunt for Red October.

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Steve had no idea who Tom Clancy was when Clancy had already created Jack Ryan and published

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what is probably the most defining book about him.

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Right.

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One of the most popular.

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Jesus.

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The books that Steve was involved in with Tom Clancy were the books in the Op Center and

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Net Force series.

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Sure.

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Are you aware of those?

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No.

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Of course not.

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Not even close.

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Op Center began in 1995 and Net Force in 1999, whereas the character of Jack Ryan debuted

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in 1984's Hunt for Red October and had been the focus of six books by the time either

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of these spinoff series began.

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It was less of a creative partnership that these two men had.

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It was more of a business venture.

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Steve and Tom were the creators of the series, but they didn't write any of the books in

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the Op Center or Net Force series.

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A man named Jeff Rovin wrote most of the Op Center books, and Steve Perry, not the guy

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from Journey, wrote the Net Force ones.

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They called the books Tom Clancy's Op Center and Tom Clancy's Net Force, knowing that most

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people would just assume that meant Clancy had written them, as opposed to just signifying

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they exist in what I'm going to call the extended Clancyverse.

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Yeah, not to be terrible, but I mean, God, I've never made it through half of one of

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his books.

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I can't imagine people being like...

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I'm not sure.

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I've tried.

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Ah, man.

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They make millions of dollars.

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Yeah, oh no.

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Of course.

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With these spinoff series.

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No, they're brilliant.

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Huge paperback.

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Everybody's got to get something at an airport.

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Yeah, no, that's fine.

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Yeah.

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I get it.

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And all good things have to come to an end, and the same is true for Steve and Tom's friendship

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and their business partnership.

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In 1999, Tom Clancy got a divorce, and in the 2005 settlement, his ex-wife Wanda King

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got control over Jack Ryan Limited Partnership, the entity that was used to publish the books

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written by other people with Tom's name on them.

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Jack Ryan Limited Partnership was an adjoint venture with S&R Literary Incorporated, an

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entity owned by Steve Pechenik.

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With Clancy's ex-wife taking control of Jack Ryan Limited, Steve was now in business with

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Tom's ex-wife, or Steve was out of business.

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Right.

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In January 2004, Tom had declared his decision that he no longer wanted his name to be on

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these books that he didn't write.

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His ex-wife felt that this was a breach of his fiduciary duty, since it would severely

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impact the value of this asset.

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Right, of course.

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The court sided with Wanda King, as did the appeals court, that he couldn't take his name

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off these books, which seems nightmarish.

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That is, God, that's what, John Denver being sued for copyright violations on his own songs

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or whatever it was?

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Yeah, I think their reasoning was basically like, in good faith, you made it totally fine

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for someone else to write books with your name on them.

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You can't change it now.

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This is just punitive in order to be a dick to your ex-wife.

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Also, in the divorce, it came out that the reason for the separation was that Wanda had

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discovered that Clancy had cheated on her with a woman nicknamed Ping Pong, who he had

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met on the internet.

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Ah, I did not know that.

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I was waiting for another classic Steve Pechenik insert into sentences.

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No, very strange, though.

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She divorced him when she found out that his friend, Steve Pechenik, killed Morrow.

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No.

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That was not it.

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It was a, quote, woman named Ping Pong.

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Hey, you know what?

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Everybody got to go back and forth.

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I feel like there's an offensive story behind that that I'm just not going to dig into.

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I have to assume.

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Nope, I don't want to do it.

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When the chips were down and Clancy was trying to take his name off these books that he no

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longer had any control over because his wife was in charge of Jack Ryan Limited, Steve

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sided with King and testified against Clancy, alleging that his motivation to take his name

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off the books was to hurt King financially.

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From everything I can tell, there's no reason to give Steve any elevated status with Tom

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Clancy as if Steve was responsible for his success or anything like that.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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He's not Jack Ryan.

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No.

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For God's sakes.

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I'm pretty sure Steve spun some great yarns that led to him being a collaborator with

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Tom.

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But gun to your head, do you know anything about the Op Center or Netforce books?

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One of them, I assume, has something to do with the Internet.

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Maybe.

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And the other one is like, we're in the middle of this place.

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We got to get stuff done.

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You would be dead.

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Netforce is about illegal fisheries.

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Really?

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No.

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I don't know.

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God, that'd be great.

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I know the names of like four Tom Clancy books and they have nothing to do with Steve at

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all.

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None of the books that you know have anything to do with Steve.

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I think I might actually read an international spy book about fishery violations.

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I think that might actually be interesting.

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Could be.

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But it might interest you to know that Steve has a non-Tom Clancy related writing career

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as well.

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Okay.

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In 1985, he released a book called The Mind Palace.

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Then in 1989, he came out with Blood Heat.

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Maximum Vigilance was published in 1992, then Pax Pacifica in 1995.

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These books have been reviewed as quote, bad, and quote, having no literary value.

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But these are just the reviews of random people online, so maybe they're great books.

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I have no idea.

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Sure, sure.

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Could be.

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Now something I find interesting is how closely some of these books seem to match up with

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Alex Jones' narratives.

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There it is.

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Some of them, Alex might have been inspired to believe, based on Steve.

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For instance, Blood Heat is about an evil cabal working in a conspiracy to create a

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mutated bioweapon which could make the bubonic plague even more transmittable.

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Ooh, that is scary.

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Virus.

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That?

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Bioweapons.

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Yeah.

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Controlled release.

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The Mind Palace has to do with psychiatry being used nefariously.

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Pax Pacifica involves conspiracies and power struggles in China that ripple over into the

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United States.

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All these vaguely intersect with major Alex Jones narratives, but Steve's 1992 book, Maximum

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Vigilance, is perhaps the best example of his literature having strange parallels with

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the things that he's told Alex.

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The central conflict in that book is about how a fictionalized version of President Bush

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was crazy and needed to be removed from office using the 25th Amendment.

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Interestingly, around the time of the book's release, Steve went around to all the media

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places that would talk to him, and he was out there just accusing George H.W. Bush of

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being crazy.

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Yeah.

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I have zero doubt that if Alex's show existed at that point, he would have used it as a

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platform to spread the Bush is Crazy idea.

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For sure.

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Steve's comments got him in some trouble, and he was reprimanded by the American Medical

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Association, which ultimately led to him leaving the American Medical Association.

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Yeah, that'll do it.

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He said that Bush was, quote, clinically depressed, and obviously in the midst of a serious identity

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crisis.

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No one else was putting forth these sorts of accusations or gossip, and it's super relevant

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to point out that there was a little bit more than a passing similarity between the book

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he was selling at the time and the portrait of reality he was presenting.

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Unsurprisingly, the hero of Maximum Vigilance is, quote, Dzax Clark.

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I want to spell that name for you.

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D-E-S-A-I-X.

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Dzax.

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D-E-S-A-I-X.

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Probably an anagram for something.

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This guy is a, quote, psychiatrist and State Department crisis manager with a taste for

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kinky sex who works his way through layers of deceit, betrayal, torture, and assassination

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to uncover the multiple conspiracies afoot.

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I don't know why anyone would say that a book like that with that description has no literary

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value.

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Absolutely.

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How dare you?

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How dare you?

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He's putting himself into his work, and he wants you to know he's into some kinky shit.

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I think he might be into some kinky shit.

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Good for him.

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Yeah.

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Now, here's where things get interesting.

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In the book, Clark, clearly a fictionalized version of Steve, discovers that the president,

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who's clearly a stand-in for President Bush, has Marfan syndrome.

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That's the condition that he has that makes Dzax Clark need to get him out of office.

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That book came out in 1992.

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When Steve started coming on Alex Jones' show, one of the ways he impressed Alex was arguing

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that Osama bin Laden had died back in 2001, and he had died of Marfan syndrome.

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Marfan syndrome is something that would have been almost a death sentence in the period

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of time that Steve was coming up in the world.

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In the 50s and 60s, the prognosis for someone with Marfan would not be good.

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Death from cardiovascular complications often would happen by the time the patient was in

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their 20s.

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However, modern medical science has made big breakthroughs.

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For the most part, it's a relatively manageable condition now, with predicted lifespans of

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people with Marfan syndrome being comparable to the general population.

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So I don't necessarily...

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The thing that I think is that Steve knows of this thing that most people don't know

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anything about, and it's a great thing to throw in as a creative device.

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Especially to certain people.

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He clearly did it in his book, Maximum Vigilance, as a plot device, and now he's clearly repurposed

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it as a plot device to help convince Alex that Osama bin Laden was dead long ago.

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He didn't do 9-11.

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Obama didn't kill him.

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And that's exactly what you would want to tell Alex, is some disease that he has never

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heard of, that's so rare, that nobody listening to the show is gonna follow up on, and Alex

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is going to pretend like he already knew all about.

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I'm an expert in Marfan.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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We call it supercalifragilistic disease, and Alex will be like, ah, they created that one

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in the 70s, and you're like, ah, you're fucking stupid.

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It seems interesting to me that this fairly obscure condition is used as a plot device

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in both his book and in telling Alex about Osama bin Laden.

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Now there's a chance that that's just a coincidence.

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I don't pretend to mean that it definitively means anything, but it also seems like maybe

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a pattern.

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Yeah.

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I don't know.

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I don't know who Roger Stone blames when he needs to get out of some trouble.

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It's the same guys over and over and over again.

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It's always Randy Kretico.

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It's always Randy Kretico.

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So there still is a little bit of a question that I have after all of this, after looking

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at all the available evidence of, like, it doesn't look like Steve worked at the State

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Department past 1979.

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It seems like that story, based on the information that you can find, makes total sense, like

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his track through the State Department.

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He came in, he's sort of fucked up, he got mad that he wasn't involved in the Iranian

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hostage crisis, he quit, and then created a self-mythology around himself that some

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people in the media bought into that really certainly helped his path go forward.

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Then he hooks up with Tom Clancy.

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After already-

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And ping-pong.

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No, that was Tom.

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You don't know.

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He's into some kinky shit.

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He starts writing thrillers and they're not getting much traction.

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He meets up with Tom Clancy, starts working with him on this, and then that sort of falls

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apart.

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And I don't know what his fucking game is with Alex.

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I don't know.

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Some people think that he's running a psy-op on him and that he was infiltrating the Patriot

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community in order to bring them down or something like that, and I find that argument to be

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completely uncredible.

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Because in order for that to be true, who is he working for?

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Somebody that he hasn't worked-

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Sacred State Department.

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Sure, okay.

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So show me any evidence that he's worked there since 1979 and then we can talk.

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Now, the point is you can't show me evidence that he hasn't, which suggests-

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It's not upon me to do that.

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Actually, if there was any evidence, then you would know that it wasn't happening.

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That's how you would know that because there is an evidence is why you know he is.

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Because if there was evidence that he was, that would be a psy-op.

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Keep going.

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All right.

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All right.

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How much further can this go?

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I don't know.

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I really don't believe that, and I also don't believe that he's just crazy, but I just don't

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get it.

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What is he doing?

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Honestly, I swear to you, this is the number one.

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This is the thing that I think most.

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He's bored.

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I think there's a chance.

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He's bored.

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He lived in an- Again, he killed the prime minister and then he had to go right back

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to just being a practicing psychiatrist.

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Now he's written all these books and he's had his taste of fame.

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He's had his taste of the goddamn creative life.

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I worked with Harry Hamlin.

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Yeah, and nothing is going on.

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Now maybe he's still practicing or whatever, but he doesn't have the taste.

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He's got the taste for a conspiracy, Dan.

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He wants to live a conspiracy.

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I think that there is some viability to that theory.

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I can't prove it, obviously, but one of the questions that comes up to support the argument

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that he is legit is the fact that he knows a lot about the intelligence community.

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He knows a lot of names.

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He knows a lot of dates.

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He talks like an expert.

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I believe that some of this could be explained by a piece of his reading diet that was accidentally

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revealed in 2012.

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In 2012, WikiLeaks released a ton of information from the intelligence group Stratfor.

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Included in that dump of documents was an email chain from 2011 where Steve Pechenik

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was complaining to customer service, quote, I bought several Stratfor books several weeks

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ago, but have not received them.

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Could someone inform me as to what happened?

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From this, we learned that Steve is a customer of Stratfor who produces intelligence assessments,

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and we also learned Steve's phone number and the fact that he uses an AOL email address,

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which you wouldn't think someone in his position would do, particularly when emailing with

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an intelligence contracting company.

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Seems weird.

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Oh, man, this is a guy who cannot turn his phone off and on again.

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Steve Pechenik at SBCglobal.net, excuse me, excuse me.

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Where are my intelligence books?

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All the books Steve ordered were the works of George Friedman, the founder of Stratfor.

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In his exchange with customer service, Steve implies that Stratfor has his visa number

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on file, which seems to indicate that he might be a regular customer and consumer of their

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products.

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This impression is strengthened by another email from 2009, where Steve is responding

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to a bulk email, like a mass email that got sent out by Stratfor, it got sent to all their

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subscribers and he's responding very snipily.

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It appears from his response that an auto mailing that he doesn't like, it appears that

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he does not like getting spam.

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Of course.

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Of course.

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Also, he would like to know why there are so many toolbars on his browser, Dan.

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Another email from 2007 includes Steve on a list of, quote, premium users of Stratfor.

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One email has him listed as the holder of a lifetime membership.

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In 2005, Steve sent Stratfor the following email, quote, happy holidays, continue the

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great job, soon we will not need our expensive, ineffective, bloated government agencies.

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I would venture to guess that someone who reads the premium content, including their

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daily intelligence reports produced by and released by Stratfor, he reads them pretty

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regularly to the point where he interacts with them to wish them a happy holiday and

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wish for the downfall of government agencies, that's probably a person who would be able

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to sound really well versed in geopolitics and intelligence stuff the way Steve does.

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That's just a theory, but it would kind of tend to explain how Steve is able to sound

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like an expert in this field when he probably hasn't been involved in decades.

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He just reads a lot of Stratfor publications who put out intelligence assessments professionally.

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That does explain how he sounds like he does.

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I did not realize that that is something that you could just get.

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You can just get intelligence assessments?

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You just email a guy and you say, I want some intelligence assessments.

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Why would you ever think for one second that anything in them is true?

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Well, because they're produced by professionals.

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So?

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I don't know.

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I don't think that Steve operates off them necessarily, because I don't think they're

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saying that Sandy Hook was a false flag.

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No, no, no, I'm saying why would anyone get them anyway?

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Yeah, never mind.

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I don't know.

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So I found these revelations pretty interesting.

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It could go a long way as to explaining Steve's ability to present himself the way he does.

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So I decided to see if Steve is mentioned in any other WikiLeaks releases.

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It's not like the only documents they've ever released were the Stratfor files.

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There are quite a few documents they release that involve Steve, mostly classified cables

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about State Department business.

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He's mentioned as an attendee at that ambassador who got killed in Afghanistan, his funeral,

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for instance.

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He's listed there.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Everybody was pissed he showed up.

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No, they were pretty.

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They were all right with that, I think.

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Now, what's interesting, because he hadn't said they caused it yet.

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Oh, OK.

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All right.

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I gotcha.

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I was going to say that would make them.

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OK.

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That was after he quit.

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Gotcha.

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He came out with that.

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Gotcha.

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Gotcha.

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Now, what's interesting about this is that literally every single classified document

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that's been released that mentions Steve comes from the period of 1976 to 1979.

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There's nothing that's been released that would tend to indicate his continued involvement

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in government past the point where he quit because of the Iran hostage crisis, which

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kind of tracks with every other piece of information that I can find that doesn't trace directly

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back to Steve.

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Right.

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So even the WikiLeaks.

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It's on the WikiLeaks.

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Yeah.

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Even their releases.

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Yeah.

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Like, they have a ton of stuff they've put out.

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Steve Genick's name only exists in the time frame you would expect it to, and in emails

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he's sent to Stratfor as a paying customer of their materials.

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Right.

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That's fucking interesting.

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That's very interesting.

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Very.

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That's not interesting is true, but I would say telling?

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Yes.

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Insurmountable evidence?

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It doesn't prove anything still, but it does, like, if our working thesis is, well, based

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on all available information that doesn't trace back to Steve or an article in the paper

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where Steve is the primary source of information, he left the State Department in 1979 and has

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not worked officially in the government ever since.

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If that's our working theory, I keep finding things that reinforce that.

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The fact that every newspaper article after 1979 refers to him as a former State Department

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official.

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Right.

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The fact that these WikiLeaks consistently go straight through with him being mentioned

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as a State Department, only during that time frame.

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Yeah.

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It's hard for me to overcome that, but like I said, if there's proof, I'll change my tune.

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For sure.

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I just can't find any.

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Can't find any.

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Yeah.

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There's another email in the Stratfor WikiLeaks collection that involves Steve.

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I don't understand my TV hookup.

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It used to be a tubed thing, now it's flat, and now I don't know.

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Anyways.

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It's a 2008 email from a guy named Dr. John Neustad, who's writing to inquire about a

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membership.

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In his email, he mentions that his partner is Steve Pechenik and that Steve pays over

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$700 a year for his Stratfor membership.

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Dr. Neustad wasn't Steve's romantic partner or anything, they ran a health supplement

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company together called Nutritional Biochemistry Incorporated.

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It's definitely not as wacky an outfit as Alex's supplement line, but there are overlaps.

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There's iron supplements, sleep aids, stimulant-free energy supplements, and the like, all the

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stuff you normally see.

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Steve was definitely involved with this company and was Dr. Neustad's partner in it at the

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time and co-founded the business with him in 2006, but I have no idea if he's still

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involved or when that ended.

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Nutritional Biochemistry Incorporated's website doesn't mention Steve and their about page,

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which I think is curious.

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Either way, this probably is nothing super nefarious, probably not even that weird, just

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another venture.

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It's just a regular old scam nutrient company.

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It might not even be as much of a scam as some others, but what it is is...

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Well, they're all scams.

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It's just further confirmation that if you scratch the surface a little bit, you always

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find a pill business with these weirdos.

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Every single one of them has some sort of a supplement business cooking somewhere.

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I assume it's because it's the easiest to get into, get out of, and scam people on because

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you can make up whatever it is you want to say about it, and your placebo effect is going

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to give you just enough to get by on.

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There's no regulation of the market whatsoever, and you're basically private labeling everybody

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else's manufactured pills, so you get a storefront, you get a thing, and if you don't like it,

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you just close it all down and burn it up for insurance money.

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It makes perfect sense.

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It works.

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Yeah.

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So I've about reached the end of where things I've looked into, and I intentionally didn't

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want to explore too much the idea that Steve's counter-coup narrative and all that stuff

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kind of is very similar to QAnon.

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We already have gone greatly in-depth on our podcast about Steve's involvement in convincing

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Alex to support Trump, and so I felt like that would be rehashing too much territory.

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But outside of this, I think the image that I come away from this with is like we're seeing

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a pretty strong indication that Steve Pechenik is involved with Alex Jones turning around

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on Sandy Hook.

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We have seen his involvement in convincing Alex to support Trump.

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These are two major decisions that Alex made that have negatively affected his career to

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a point that is almost unexpressable.

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Oh, no, they've destroyed his career.

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And it has been done based on, as it appears, based on the advice and guidance of somebody

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who when I look at it, all the chips are down, I would never think is a credible person to

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talk to.

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Yeah.

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Even if I didn't know any of the stuff that I've looked into for this episode, if you

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told me a psych warfare guy wants to talk to me and promises not to do psych warfare

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on me, I would say I pass.

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Yeah, of course.

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No matter what information he gives, he can give it to me in writing.

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Yeah.

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I don't want to talk to him.

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Uh-uh.

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I do not trust myself not to get completely bamboozled by him.

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That's what I'm saying.

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That's what I want to see if I can get bamboozled.

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I want to see if he can, you know, like I can't be, I'm not, I can't be hypnotized.

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Like I'm, I'm one of those people who just, you know, it doesn't happen.

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So Jordan says, I'm interested.

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Jordan says on year three of doing this podcast.

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Oh shit.

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Oh no.

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Oh no.

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It turns out those were the words that wake me up.

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Yeah.

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So I don't, I don't know.

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Like I, I've seen a lot of stuff and I've read a bunch of stuff for this and looked

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at a lot of indications and to me it seems like there is a, there's a clear picture of

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what's most likely.

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Yeah.

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But the alternative is also possible.

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It just seems incredibly unlikely.

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And all the information that is definitive that I can find tends towards the likely explanation.

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Now I'm just a dick who records a podcast in his apartment.

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I am not involved in the halls of government or the high level spy intelligence consulting

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business.

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I don't read Stratfor stuff.

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So I have no idea how any of this stuff works.

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Is it possible there's a world that is completely obscured and all kinds of secrecy is involved

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and Steve is actually, actually was working with Reagan and Bush.

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Right.

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I don't know.

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Possible.

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It's possible.

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I can't tell you it's not.

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I don't think it is.

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I don't think it's true.

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Well, there is one thing, you know, obviously you haven't worked in the halls of government,

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so you can't view Steve's, you can't view Steve's story, Steve's story through that

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lens.

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However, you are, as am I, somebody who works from home and we spend a lot of time writing

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and staring at computer screens and empty pages and you get bored.

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You get bored.

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So you and I, we do this, you know, we don't do this podcast cause we're bored, but this

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is an outlet to keep us from losing our minds all too often.

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And Steve, I'm sure is just like, fuck, what do I do to get out some of this stress to

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get back to my computer and start typing?

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I'll go fuck with Alex.

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I know I'll go fuck with Alex for about an hour or so.

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Not a lot of work.

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Yeah.

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Get it done.

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I don't know.

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He's bored.

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So after all of this examination and reflection, I've sat with a lot of this for a bit and

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I really don't know what to make of Steve Pachanik.

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I don't know how much of his story is true, but I can definitely say that it's not entirely

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false.

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There's some truth to some of the things he's saying.

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Which is the best lie.

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Exactly.

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I come away from this with the sense that Steve is first of all incredibly smart and

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seems to have a singular talent for persuasion.

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Used to be able to convince people of things, let's say.

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Couldn't get his job back.

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He appears to have exactly the right amount of credentials one would need to be able to

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convince people who are inclined to believe him that he had been everywhere and he has

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done everything.

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Yep.

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Ultimately, when I look at all this available evidence about Steve Pachanik, what comes

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to mind is a line from his 1985 novel, Blood Heat, quote, every life is exciting depending

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on how you paint it.

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I think Steve- Edit that out, good God.

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I don't want that on this podcast.

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I don't want his shitty writing on this podcast.

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I think Steve has painted an incredible life for himself and it's very interesting and

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he may have accidentally or intentionally or just capriciously torpedoed Alex Jones's

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life in the process and created a fucking monster.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:27.300)

Yeah, it is kind of almost one of those like, Hitler did do something good in his life.

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He killed Hitler.

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Like Steve Pachanik did do something good in his life.

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He killed Alex Jones's career.

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But also facilitated in many ways.

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Yeah, he made it incredibly worse for the rest of the world, but at least it's going

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to end.

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At least we know it's going to end.

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Well, so is this episode.

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Fair.

Unknown Speaker (01:53:52.819)

I want your reflections though, Jordan.

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I've hit you with a lot of information and I don't know.

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I don't know what case I've proven.

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I don't know if I've even proven a case, but what are your thoughts?

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I'm always amazed by those guys who can just fuck around their way up.

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Do you know what I mean?

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This is a guy who is not good at just about anything.

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I don't know if that's true.

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He's very, very good at flattery.

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Maybe that's his only skill.

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Maybe he's really, really bad at everything but flattery and he has parlayed that skill

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into a weird and interesting and wonderful career.

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But based on the single line you just read to me from his book, he's not a good writer.

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Bunch of anonymous people online tend to agree.

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None of the shit that he helped co-create with Tom Clancy is any good.

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He was his major- Don't tell Harry Hamlin that.

Unknown Speaker (01:54:55.939)

You're not going to stick up for Brimley?

Unknown Speaker (01:54:57.659)

No.

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He's fine.

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He's got the money.

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He's golden.

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He's the biggest thing in his entire State Department career was an international disaster

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of the death of a prime minister.

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Everything else, everybody agrees that he wasn't really involved with.

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He quit because people didn't want him around.

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Most likely.

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So every indication is that he is shitty at anything he tries to do, but he can shit talk

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his way into-

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But he might be really great with psychology, which is the-

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You're right.

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We would have to get a-

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Which I'm not doing.

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Not going for a session.

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I'm definitely not going to go for a session.

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But he might be really, really talented in that field.

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He might be very gifted in understanding how people's brains work, which is what allows

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him to be able to spin the yarns he does and get involved in the situations he does.

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I don't know, but again, like I said, I want to be totally clear.

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There is a incredibly small possibility that a lot of his resume is true and there's just

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no evidence of it.

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That being said, the stuff he tells Alex is still bullshit.

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That's 100% true.

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Even if his resume is totally true, there's no way the Las Vegas shooting didn't happen.

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He's a fucking asshole.

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That's the other reflection I have.

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What a giant fucking asshole.

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It's not like Roger Stone where he does it with a twinkle in his eye as he burns the

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world on fire, burns the world to the ground.

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It's almost surly and annoyed.

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He's annoyed when he has to destroy the world.

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Which is fun when you consider his arguments with Alex about manners or how he was mad

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when Alex was supporting the Neil Gorsuch being on the Supreme Court, Steve got really

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mad at him about how he can't have a neocon on the court.

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It's fun when he's cranky at Alex, but it is, I don't know.

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What are you going to do?

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So I don't know if we have a definitive conclusion, but that's the end of the episode.

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Make your own conclusions, what you will about this whole matter.

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I just thought it was important to, as we're in the 2013 period where Steve has appeared,

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I think it is essential for us to have a better understanding of when he comes on and is like,

Unknown Speaker (01:57:16.619)

I am a complete expert in all of these things.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:20.340)

What is true about that?

Unknown Speaker (01:57:21.899)

We couldn't do that within the span of an episode that wasn't fully dedicated to this.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:27.300)

No, this is great.

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I'm really glad to learn more about this guy.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:30.539)

Yeah.

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He's a mess.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:32.539)

Yeah.

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This dude's fucked up.

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What is his deal?

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Steve!

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If you're listening, what is your deal?

Unknown Speaker (01:57:39.340)

D.Z.X.

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Clark.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:41.340)

Oh boy.

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He's the mako shark rampant of Tom Clancy novels.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:47.699)

So we'll be back on Monday, but until then we have a website.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:51.300)

We do.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:52.300)

It's knowledgefight.com.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:53.300)

That's right.

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We're also on Twitter.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:55.300)

It's at go to bed Jordan and at knowledge underscore fights.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:57.859)

You can find us on Facebook.

Unknown Speaker (01:57:59.300)

You can find us on Facebook.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:00.979)

And if you would like to download and listen to the show, you can go to iTunes.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:04.619)

You could leave a review.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:06.579)

The other thing you could do in the back to school aisle at Target hidden underneath the

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small three star notebooks.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:14.600)

Do you remember the small ones like the little notebooks about, you know, six inches wide?

Unknown Speaker (01:58:19.699)

If you open it up.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:20.699)

Yeah, exactly.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:21.699)

Uh, Dan just, uh, demonstrated one of the, I have one right here.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:24.699)

If you open it up to exactly the 38th page, scribble a little demon star around there

Unknown Speaker (01:58:31.060)

with the circle or don't describe, don't, don't, don't, don't give it all the way.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:34.539)

I won't.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:35.539)

I won't.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:36.539)

And then the podcast will emerge from a, actually a hand will emerge from the summoning circle

Unknown Speaker (01:58:41.979)

and it will give you an episode of our podcast.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:44.020)

That's the flash drive.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:45.420)

It's always, it's always on a flash drive.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:47.460)

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:48.460)

How else are you going to transfer the audio?

Unknown Speaker (01:58:49.460)

You can't just plug a demon hand into your computer.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:51.720)

That's not going to work.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:53.020)

So you can with a monkey squat though.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:54.819)

Uh, yeah, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:55.819)

So, uh, we'll be back.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:56.939)

But uh, till then I'm Neo.

Unknown Speaker (01:58:58.579)

I'm Leo.

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I'm DZX Clark.

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I am the Jesus lizard.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:03.220)

Andy in Kansas.

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You're on the air.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:05.220)

Thanks for holding.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:06.220)

Hello Alex.

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I'm a first time caller.

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I'm a huge fan.

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I love your work.

Unknown Speaker (01:59:10.220)

I love you.